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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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Speaker 1: day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more

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Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple podcast, SoundCloud

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. You've heard no

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Speaker 1: collusion from President Trump countless times, but collusion maybe the

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Speaker 1: least of his worries. As law enforcement officials in New

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Speaker 1: York are moving forward with civil and criminal investigations that

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Speaker 1: are well beyond the president's federal control. Joining me as

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Speaker 1: former federal prosecutor Jeffrey Kramer, managing director at Berkeley Research Group.

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Speaker 1: Jeff New York's Attorney General, kicked off a busy week

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Speaker 1: by issuing subpoenas to Trump's lenders, including Deutsche Bank. What's

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Speaker 1: the scope of this particular civil investigation? The AGS investigation

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Speaker 1: could be widespread, depending where Deutsche Bank was involved, But

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Speaker 1: it certainly gets into any loans that Trump or Trump

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Speaker 1: organization was looking for, and that could get into a

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Speaker 1: lot of different things. What documents were submitted. We know

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Speaker 1: that Cohen, his former attorney, said that sometimes the documents

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Speaker 1: that were submitted in supportive loans weren't accurate. So this

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Speaker 1: is the first volley, if you will, and we don't

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Speaker 1: know how deep it's going to get into Trump's personal

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Speaker 1: finances as well as the Trump organization. Let's talk about

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Speaker 1: the possibility of the a G subpoena in Trump to

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Speaker 1: testify while he's in office. When he was president, Bill

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Speaker 1: Clinton eventually agreed to testify NEPAULA Jones case. But could

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Speaker 1: Trump successfully fight off a subpoena. Um, he probably can't

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Speaker 1: fight off a subpoena. He could probably fight off sitting

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Speaker 1: down for an interview or a deposition or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: But a subpoena to the Trump organization certainly doesn't impact

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Speaker 1: him as much. A subpoena to the bank doesn't impact

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Speaker 1: his time at all. It's once you get into interviewing

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Speaker 1: the president that these arguments come forth. Now this president,

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Speaker 1: it may have a tougher time than than prior one

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Speaker 1: is given the fact that he's probably played more golf

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Speaker 1: than the presidents in recent memory. So it's hard to

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Speaker 1: argue he doesn't have time given his proclivity for golf

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Speaker 1: and watching TV. But as far as subpoenas, and I

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Speaker 1: don't think he's got much of an argument to stop those. Now,

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Speaker 1: let's take a little further. If Letitia James, New York,

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Speaker 1: a G who is not bound by Justice Department guidance,

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Speaker 1: finds criminal acts by Trump, can she indict a sitting president. Well,

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Speaker 1: under d o J policy no, But under New York

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Speaker 1: law there's nothing codified that says she can't. The same

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Speaker 1: arguments would still would still be there. In other words,

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Speaker 1: the president needs to run the country. He or she

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Speaker 1: can't be bothered now or in the future with dealing

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Speaker 1: with any sort of criminal case, even against them, when

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Speaker 1: they need to be worrying about our military and our

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Speaker 1: social structure, et cetera. So the same arguments would be there.

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Speaker 1: Whether it's in a d o J policy or just

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Speaker 1: an argument before the court, you'll see the same thing.

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Speaker 1: We've got a double barrel with a G. James going

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Speaker 1: in the civil route, maybe it feeds into criminal, but

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Speaker 1: certainly the Manhattan District Attorney filing criminal charges, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: have the same argument. Possibly, so they could file the

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Speaker 1: charges and then face whatever arguments there are. You could

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Speaker 1: follow the charges right, face the arguments. Even if you lose.

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Speaker 1: You wait until he's out of office, and then that

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Speaker 1: argument becomes becomes moot. So that's why the re election

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Speaker 1: of prospects for our current president has far greater implications

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Speaker 1: than just getting a second term. It could determine whether

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Speaker 1: or not he stands as a defendant. The New York

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Speaker 1: ag also has a lawsuit pending against Trump's personal charitable foundation.

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Speaker 1: What might the ramifications be from that. We've seen it

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Speaker 1: evolving a little, Yeah, we have seen we We've seen

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Speaker 1: a couple of shots early early on in the presidency

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Speaker 1: with the foundation, and some anecdotes at the foundation per

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Speaker 1: just a big portrait of of Donald Trump which he

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Speaker 1: used for personal reasons. They've paid possibly some campaign benefits, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: So you know this will hit his foundation. It's embarrassing,

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Speaker 1: but similar to Trump University, where he settled for twenty

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Speaker 1: or five million dollars whatever the number was, and then

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Speaker 1: went on with his the rest of his day. Um,

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's gonna cause too much of a

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Speaker 1: headache beyond the embarrassment. But again, you don't know with

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Speaker 1: this president, this family, this organization. Once you start pulling

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Speaker 1: a thread, you don't know where you're going to lead

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Speaker 1: as far as financial implications or overseas implications. You just

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Speaker 1: don't know what's at the end of the tunnel. You

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Speaker 1: mentioned the Manhattan District Attorney. He charged Paul Manifort with

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Speaker 1: a litany of state crimes minutes after he learned his

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Speaker 1: sentence was raised to seven and a half years in

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Speaker 1: federal court. Does Maniford, who has been branded a liar

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Speaker 1: now by a federal judge have anything left to bargain

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Speaker 1: with here unless he's holding something in his bucket that

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Speaker 1: he hasn't revealed yet. I don't know what he's got left. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's definitely a painted witness. Having said that, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of people in jail right now who had painted

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Speaker 1: witnesses testify against them. Having a cooperator who's lied to

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Speaker 1: law enforcement is not unique. Evan cooperator who's lied to

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Speaker 1: the court, that's a that's a smaller subset. Certainly, So

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Speaker 1: manaforts use is limited unless he can document what he's saying,

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Speaker 1: as we saw a little bit in the congressional hearings

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Speaker 1: where he had copies of checks, etcetera. The thing for

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Speaker 1: you know, certainly Sivants and the Manhattan di A is

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Speaker 1: does he know anything else above and beyond what he's

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Speaker 1: already testified about or is this just making sure that

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Speaker 1: Paul Manafort doesn't walk out of prisoner Freeman never to

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Speaker 1: be heard from again. Will this case survive what are

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Speaker 1: bound to be objections from the defense based on double jeopardy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a good question. New York has a pretty strident

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Speaker 1: laws on the books on on double jeopardy. And you

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Speaker 1: can't try somebody twice or go against them indictment twice

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Speaker 1: for the same conduct. You can make an argument that

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Speaker 1: this might be similar conduct, maybe identical conduct, um, But

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Speaker 1: from Manhattan d A's position, let's fight that out in court.

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Speaker 1: You know, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. It's certainly

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Speaker 1: an issue, but at least it's a backstop against the

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Speaker 1: presidential pardon. You know, just briefly there there's a pretty

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Speaker 1: robust process at d o J, at least there was

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Speaker 1: before where the pardon there is a part in office

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Speaker 1: and documents are followed and recommendations are made. It's more

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Speaker 1: of a whim right now in the White House. So

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Speaker 1: I think the backstop that's there. You know, you can

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Speaker 1: argue it later, but at least there's an argument to

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Speaker 1: be had exactly and we still we haven't gotten even

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Speaker 1: to the Southern District of New York to see what

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Speaker 1: they're doing there, but we will pick that up next time.

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Speaker 1: It's great to have you on again, Jeff. Thanks very much.

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Speaker 1: That's Jeffrey Kramer. He's managing director at Berkeley Research Group.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can

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Speaker 1: subscribe and listen to the show on Apple podcast, SoundCloud,

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I'm June Brosso.

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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg h