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Speaker 1: Well, here's something special I promised you all a while

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Speaker 1: back in our final bonus episode before the eighth season

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Speaker 1: of Family Secrets launches in just a few weeks. The

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Speaker 1: tables are turned, and today I'm the guest. The wonderful

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Speaker 1: Kimmy Cope, writer, motivational speaker, former OPRAH producer and host

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Speaker 1: of the podcast All the Wiser is sitting in my

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Speaker 1: seat today and asking all the questions about my family Secrets.

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Speaker 1: I hope you enjoy our conversation. I'm Danny Shapiro and

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Speaker 1: this is family Secrets, the secrets that are kept from us,

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Speaker 1: the secrets we keep from others, and the secrets we

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Speaker 1: keep from ourselves.

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Speaker 2: Hello Danny, Welcome to Family Secrets.

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Speaker 3: Hi Kimmy, It's nice to be on Family Secrets.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, familiar territory for you. My intention for this

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Speaker 2: conversation is really for this beautiful community you have built,

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Speaker 2: your listening audience to know you a little deeper and yeah,

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Speaker 2: hopefully find some pieces of themselves in stories that perhaps

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Speaker 2: will here for the first time. And the origin story

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Speaker 2: of Family Secrets in this podcast was you as a secret.

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Speaker 2: And I know so many of your listeners are familiar,

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Speaker 2: but for anyone who's listening and does not know that

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Speaker 2: story of the life changing secret that you learned in

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Speaker 2: twenty sixteen, can you briefly share?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely so.

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Speaker 1: In twenty sixteen, my husband Michael was sending away for

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Speaker 1: a DNA test, a home DNA test, and he asked

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Speaker 1: me if I wanted to do it too, and I just,

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Speaker 1: on a whim, said sure. It wasn't out of any

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Speaker 1: real curiosity or you know, I could easily have said no,

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Speaker 1: because I thought I knew everything that there was to

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Speaker 1: know about my family and its ancestry and my origins,

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Speaker 1: my ancestors.

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Speaker 3: But I went ahead and did it.

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Speaker 1: And when the results came back, I actually didn't even

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Speaker 1: remember that I had done it, That's how insignificant it

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Speaker 1: was to me. The results revealed to me that my

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Speaker 1: dad hadn't been my biological father, the dad who raised me,

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Speaker 1: and I.

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Speaker 3: Learned a lot.

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Speaker 1: I uncovered a great deal about secrets that my parents

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Speaker 1: kept all their lives that I feel certain they intended

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Speaker 1: to take to the grave with them, which they did

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Speaker 1: after a lifetime of writing a bad secrets, or writing

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Speaker 1: novels and memoirs of bad secrets, and always also feeling

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Speaker 1: like something didn't totally add up, just something I felt

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Speaker 1: slightly adjacent to myself. Somehow it all suddenly became.

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Speaker 2: Clear, and you described, you know, growing up having this

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Speaker 2: really easy love for your father and just this deep adoration,

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Speaker 2: where your mother was more distant at times, it was

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Speaker 2: much more contentious. And you had even pondered that question,

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Speaker 2: you know, is she my mom? Does she feel like

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Speaker 2: my mom? I'm curious sort of, you know, you've described

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Speaker 2: a sense of loneliness as a kid, wandering around the neighborhood,

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Speaker 2: peering in windows, looking at families, large families with siblings,

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Speaker 2: and so I know you were an only child, and

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Speaker 2: I'm curious about Danny in the outer world versus your

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Speaker 2: inner world and what that was like during that time.

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Speaker 1: So Danny in the outer world apparently looked like she belonged.

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Speaker 1: People who I've enco it over the years, who knew

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Speaker 1: me when I was a kid, are really shocked to

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Speaker 1: learn how out of step I felt. And you know

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Speaker 1: that I didn't feel that I belonged. You know, people

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Speaker 1: I went to middle school with, people I went to

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Speaker 1: high school with, all really professed shock about that, because

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Speaker 1: I guess I had a kind of contained nature and

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Speaker 1: I sort of looked to the part, but I felt

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Speaker 1: really like a creature visiting from outer space. A lot

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Speaker 1: of the time, I didn't feel like people really knew me,

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Speaker 1: or that I really knew myself in many ways, and

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Speaker 1: the environment of my home was so awkward and uncomfortable.

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Speaker 1: One of the things I've really learned on you know,

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Speaker 1: hosting this podcast is that what we experience as children,

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Speaker 1: whatever the environment is of our home, we just think

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Speaker 1: that that's the way it is, and that's normal, and

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Speaker 1: maybe that's the way everybody lives. At a certain point,

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Speaker 1: when I was probably in high school, I started realizing

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Speaker 1: that that wasn't the case, and that the atmosphere in

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Speaker 1: our home was markedly different from you know, my friends

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Speaker 1: whose homes I would visit. It felt to me, and

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Speaker 1: I think this has to do with my own extreme sensitivity,

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Speaker 1: you know, just too behavior and tone and actions of others.

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Speaker 1: It felt to me like it was a tinder box.

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Speaker 1: It felt like it was always ready to just sort

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Speaker 1: of explode. My parents were miserable with each other, and

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Speaker 1: there was something in the way that each of them

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Speaker 1: was with me, very different in the way that they

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Speaker 1: treated me, But there was something that just didn't feel

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Speaker 1: easy or comfortable.

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Speaker 2: You know, as we have this conversation, I've thought a

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Speaker 2: lot about how your present work, this podcast included is

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Speaker 2: deeply informed by your past. I think all of our

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Speaker 2: work is. But I also from hearing you and how

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Speaker 2: you talk about your son Jacob and your husband Michael,

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Speaker 2: the deep love and connection that I hear in the

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Speaker 2: family you've created. You know, I think so often in

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Speaker 2: generational stories, we either repeat, or for lack of a

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Speaker 2: better language, we write the wrong and create something very different.

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Speaker 2: And that appears to me that you very much created that.

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Speaker 1: It certainly feels to me like the greatest achievement of

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Speaker 1: my life that I didn't repeat and that I did

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Speaker 1: create something different. And I do think that probably from

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Speaker 1: the time that I was a teenager, I was forming

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Speaker 1: myself in counter identification to my mom. I understood that

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Speaker 1: she was somebody who very often put people off, chronically

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Speaker 1: felt misunderstood, was very angry a lot of the time,

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Speaker 1: this kind of just simmering, low level, ready to be

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Speaker 1: dissed at the slightest notice. You know, the world had

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Speaker 1: something against her in her mind, and she sort of

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Speaker 1: built the life that she saw in a way like

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Speaker 1: she felt that way about the world, and so the

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Speaker 1: world reflected that back at her. And you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: not trying to throw her under the bus. I have

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Speaker 1: a lot more understanding of her now than I did

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Speaker 1: when I was younger. But as a mother, she wanted

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Speaker 1: me to be a certain way, and if I didn't

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Speaker 1: conform to the way that she wanted me to be,

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Speaker 1: which was essentially a reflection of her, then there was

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Speaker 1: trouble if I couldn't do that.

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Speaker 2: And I'm sure and then for you it then said

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Speaker 2: not enough and not enough for her right.

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Speaker 1: And something that's occurred to me recently, I've been thinking

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Speaker 1: a lot about my father. The anniversary of his death

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Speaker 1: was just last week, and always a time where he's

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Speaker 1: very much on my mind. And because of his religiosity,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it was really the defining characteristic of my

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Speaker 1: father was that he was an Orthodox Jew. It's how

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Speaker 1: he would have defined himself, I think, before any other

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Speaker 1: way of defining himself. It was the landscape that he

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Speaker 1: was brought up in, and you know, there were generations

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Speaker 1: preceding him, you know, where that was the way they lived.

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Speaker 1: And in order to please my father, I think my

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Speaker 1: father would have loved me no matter what because he

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Speaker 1: knew how to love, which was something that I think

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Speaker 1: saved me in a lot of ways. But in terms

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Speaker 1: of his approval, I had a really hard time being

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Speaker 1: a good little Orthodox Jewish girl. If you had asked me,

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Speaker 1: I think even when I was like a child, whether

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Speaker 1: I thought that I would grow up and marry an

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Speaker 1: Orthodox man and you know, have a whole bunch of

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Speaker 1: Orthodox children and live that life, I think I would

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Speaker 1: have known from a very early age that that wasn't

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Speaker 1: going to be my path. And that was really problematic

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Speaker 1: between my father and me, because that was the most

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Speaker 1: important thing to him. So in a way I was

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Speaker 1: sort of squeezed between both of my parents and failing

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Speaker 1: them each with my mother because I was unable to

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Speaker 1: be her perfect mirror, and with my father because I

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Speaker 1: just wasn't that Orthodox Jewish girl.

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Speaker 2: That makes so much sense to me. And yeah, this

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Speaker 2: idea of just the radical acceptance for you exactly as

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Speaker 2: who you are and who you came into this world.

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Speaker 2: So you mentioned being the anniversary of your father's death,

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Speaker 2: and you know, as I research and as I told you,

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Speaker 2: it's been such a joy and privilege to learn about

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Speaker 2: you through your work. I see these sort of tempole

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Speaker 2: moments in your life, and some of them are of

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Speaker 2: deep suffering and trauma, and certainly the loss of your father.

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Speaker 2: Your parents were in a car crash that killed your dad,

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Speaker 2: and your mom survived. So for what you're comfortable sharing,

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Speaker 2: what do you remember about that period, about that day

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Speaker 2: and sort of how it shaped you.

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Speaker 1: That day I've described in my writing as the moment

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Speaker 1: that divided my life into before and after. And when

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Speaker 1: I wrote those words, I was probably in my thirties

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Speaker 1: and I was writing about my twenties. I was writing about,

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Speaker 1: you know, February nineteen eighty six, and I was young

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Speaker 1: enough to not understand that lives contain more than one

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Speaker 1: of these before and after moments if we live long enough.

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Speaker 1: But for me, that was the first, and a huge one.

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Speaker 1: I just want to preface what I'm about to say

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Speaker 1: with I've been very aware lately that I recently had

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Speaker 1: a big birthday and I turned sixty, which is still

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Speaker 1: a complete shock to me. It was, you know, it

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Speaker 1: was a big milestone birthday, and I entered the decade

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Speaker 1: that my father died in. He was sixty four years

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Speaker 1: old when he died, and My mother was sixty two

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Speaker 1: when she was widowed, and my son is twenty three,

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Speaker 1: which is the age I was when all of this happened,

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Speaker 1: and I suddenly realized all of that recently that.

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Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, of all the ages and the pieces and.

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Speaker 1: Exactly like the perfect storm of that. And on family

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Speaker 1: secrets it comes up often the whole idea of anniversaries

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Speaker 1: and the anniversary of a loss through the anniversary of

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Speaker 1: a shock. And you know, it's easy, I think to

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Speaker 1: dismiss what that is, but the body remembers always, you know.

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Speaker 1: So I might not remember on February twenty third of

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Speaker 1: any given year that it's February twenty third, but my

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Speaker 1: body remembers. I mean, I'll be out of sorts all

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Speaker 1: day and then suddenly I'll realize what the date is

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Speaker 1: and understand, you know, or I'll remember what the weather

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Speaker 1: was like on that particular February day. So the main

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Speaker 1: thing about that day and that time is that I

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Speaker 1: was such a mess in my life. And also looking

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Speaker 1: at my twenty three year old son now and seeing

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Speaker 1: that he is not a mess, you know that he

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Speaker 1: knows who he is, and he has courage of his

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Speaker 1: own convictions and he's his own person. I wasn't that yet.

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Speaker 1: I was really kind of unformed.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: When I started teaching university, when I was around twenty

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Speaker 1: nine or thirty years old, I remember looking around the

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Speaker 1: workshop table I was teaching at Columbia University, and I

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Speaker 1: looked around the table at these young women, these young

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Speaker 1: Barnard and Columbia women, and I could identify. It was

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Speaker 1: like this little game I played in my head, you know,

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Speaker 1: the ones who never have let themselves get into so

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Speaker 1: much trouble or never would have sort of like followed

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Speaker 1: the path that I followed, and then the ones who

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Speaker 1: would I could feel and see and pick them out,

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Speaker 1: you know, and tried to mentor the ones I thought

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Speaker 1: I could help.

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Speaker 3: But I had dropped out of college.

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Speaker 1: I was modeling and acting and doing TV commercials, or

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Speaker 1: at least that's what I told myself I was doing.

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Speaker 1: I did that for a while, but I was terrible

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Speaker 1: at it.

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Speaker 2: If I was going to cast you for anything in life,

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Speaker 2: knowing your deep soul and commercials, I love that.

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Speaker 1: Commercials like you know, for Coca Cola, you know, for

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Speaker 1: York peppermint patties. I actually had to like jump up

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Speaker 1: and down on a beach and say California loved New

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Speaker 1: York with more chocolate. I mean, I was terrible and

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Speaker 1: uncomfortable in my own skin and awkward. But because again

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Speaker 1: going back to sort of mirroring my mother, a big

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Speaker 1: part of the fuss that was made over me when

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Speaker 1: I was growing up was the way that I looked

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Speaker 1: and that I was a pretty little girl and I

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Speaker 1: was a pretty teenager, and I kind of just went

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Speaker 1: with that. I thought, well, I guess that's what I

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Speaker 1: have to offer. I don't want to sound like I'm

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Speaker 1: blaming anybody, because I'm not. Like I had a lot

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Speaker 1: of longing for other things, but I didn't know.

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Speaker 2: Well, maybe that's the disconnect I just felt, because I

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Speaker 2: know you right for your brilliant mind, and so much

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Speaker 2: of that work is on the physical appearance, especially when

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Speaker 2: you're young and youthful, and yeah, that's so interesting. You know,

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Speaker 2: this expectation that you were beautiful and that people identified

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Speaker 2: you with that, and it's perhaps there was some unconscious

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Speaker 2: expectation around that to do something with that physical beauty.

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Speaker 1: Mm hm. Well, and that was complicated by the fact

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Speaker 1: that that focus on my looks had a lot to

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Speaker 1: do with my not looking to Iwish quote unquote, you

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Speaker 1: know that that's what people were constantly, constantly saying, And

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Speaker 1: so really what they were saying was that I didn't

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Speaker 1: look like who I thought I was, or like my

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Speaker 1: physical appearance was some sort of crazy, weird gift, like

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Speaker 1: some sort of nutty fluke, that I looked the way

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Speaker 1: that I looked, and I didn't look like my family,

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Speaker 1: and instead I was, you know, very fair and had

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Speaker 1: blue eyes and features. It just didn't look like, you know,

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Speaker 1: anybody that I was surrounded by. So I think somewhere

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Speaker 1: within that there was this hard kernel of confusion.

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Speaker 2: You've described as inner knowing, which I think when I

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Speaker 2: hear you talk about it, it feels so relevant and

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Speaker 2: real to me as I look back on my life,

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Speaker 2: and you know, part of it, as you share, is

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Speaker 2: was your physical appearance almost this whisper of your heart. Right,

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Speaker 2: something's off and that subconscious knowing, and you've described with

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Speaker 2: the discovery that your father was not your biological father,

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Speaker 2: that it was almost as if the puzzle piece it

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Speaker 2: all came into focus, all that little subconju the whisper

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Speaker 2: of the heart and the mind. So yeah, I'm deeply

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Speaker 2: curious about that and what your heart was saying to

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Speaker 2: your mind.

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Speaker 1: I think that's that's where that disconnect that didn't enable

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Speaker 1: me to really come to know myself when I was younger.

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Speaker 1: I think that that's where it resided, because there was

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Speaker 1: this feeling that I didn't belong and I didn't know.

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Speaker 1: Why in the world would I feel that way? Why

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Speaker 1: would I feel that way? I mean, I was the

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Speaker 1: ultimate insider in terms of, you know, the Jewish world.

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Speaker 1: My family had a lot of prestige in that world.

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Speaker 1: My ancestors on my dad's side were just storied, legendary people. Well,

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Speaker 1: why in the world would I feel like I didn't belong?

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Speaker 1: Why would I go to a wedding or a bar

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Speaker 1: mitzvah in my family and feel that I did not belong?

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Speaker 1: Why were people constantly commenting in some sort of what

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Speaker 1: was meant to be flattering way about my not looking Jewish,

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Speaker 1: my not looking like where I come from. I mean,

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Speaker 1: underneath that, I must have been hearing you're not one

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Speaker 1: of us. What would happen is I would double down.

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Speaker 1: Anytime somebody would say something like that to me, I

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Speaker 1: would nicely bite back and I would say, oh, yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: raised Orthodox, you know, went to a yeshiva, a Jewish

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Speaker 1: day school, you know, kept a kosher home, never tasted

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Speaker 1: bacon until I was a senior in high school. Had

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Speaker 1: two sinks and two dishwashers. I mean really seriously kosher home,

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Speaker 1: fluent in Hebrew. I would say all these things, like

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Speaker 1: list them like a litany, which was my way of

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Speaker 1: saying stop it, you know, stop it. Stop saying that.

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Speaker 1: And after my discovery about my dad, a couple of

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Speaker 1: years later, I was at a dinner, a big awards

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Speaker 1: dinner that was honoring a friend of mine, and it

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Speaker 1: was in the Jewish world. It was like sponsored by

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Speaker 1: one of the Jewish newspapers, and I was there to

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Speaker 1: you know, congratulate and cheer on my friend. My husband

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Speaker 1: and I got there. It was a you know, fancy

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Speaker 1: cocktail party attire, and it was in one of those

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Speaker 1: old New York City hotels that has kind of cloudy

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Speaker 1: glass behind the bar and like sort of modeled glass mirror.

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Speaker 1: And I went over to the bar to get a drink,

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Speaker 1: and I caught a glimpse of myself, you know, unexpectedly,

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Speaker 1: and I was wearing a little black dress and had

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Speaker 1: long blonde hair, and I looked the way I looked,

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Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, I thought, oh, that this

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Speaker 1: is what they were seeing. I mean, in this room,

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Speaker 1: everyone would assume that I'm the wife of a Jewish

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Speaker 1: man who's here, or they would have a story. It

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Speaker 1: was plain as day.

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Speaker 2: But I.

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Speaker 1: Didn't see it, couldn't see it. It was too dangerous

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Speaker 1: to see it. We believe what our parents tell us.

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Speaker 1: We believe the stories that were told about ourselves from

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Speaker 1: the time that were tiny, and those become our identities.

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Speaker 1: And that was my identity, you know, when Inheritance came out,

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Speaker 1: you know, which is the books that I wrote about

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Speaker 1: this discovery and the secret. One of the first comments

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Speaker 1: I saw was on my Facebook page, and it was

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Speaker 1: from the wife of my seventh grade English teacher who

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Speaker 1: I was friends with. Them. They were like one of

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Speaker 1: those young, cool, young English teacher couples in high school.

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Speaker 1: And I was always looking for my mentors. I was

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Speaker 1: always looking for like somebody to take me in like

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Speaker 1: a stray dog and just you know, make me part

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Speaker 1: of their family. And this couple, Peter and Nancy Cowan,

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Speaker 1: they were like that for me. And Nancy wrote on

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Speaker 1: my Facebook page hashtag always wondered, you know, only child,

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Speaker 1: older parents, physically so different from what I was supposed

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Speaker 1: to look like and what my ethnicy he was supposed

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Speaker 1: to be, so hashtag always wondered. So there was a

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Speaker 1: part of me that was working, over time, always to

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Speaker 1: try to figure out to belong. Yeah, I think there

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Speaker 1: was a kind of profound anxiety that I couldn't recognize

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Speaker 1: or label. I mean, I was well into my twenties

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Speaker 1: before I even could define the word anxiety. But it

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00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:28,640
Speaker 1: ruled me, and it shaped that feeling of not belonging,

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Speaker 1: not fitting in, not adding up being other. When that's

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Speaker 1: the case and we can't supply a reason for it,

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Speaker 1: then we turn it against ourselves. And that was the

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Speaker 1: story of you know, I would call those sort of

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Speaker 1: almost lost decades of my life. I mean, from the

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Speaker 1: time that I was a child, through my adolescence and

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Speaker 1: into my early twenties and culminated with a thunderclap and

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Speaker 1: ended for all intents and purposes when my parents were

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Speaker 1: in their car crash and my dad died, and it

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Speaker 1: was a shock to my system that actually rebooted my system,

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Speaker 1: you know, sort of reshaped my system, and was the

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Speaker 1: very very beginning of my figuring out who I had

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Speaker 1: always been but had never allowed myself to be.

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Speaker 2: Well, Yeah, and I the deep wounds and the reconciliation

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Speaker 2: of your identity of belonging with the discovery that your

352
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:39,840
Speaker 2: father was not your biological father, It makes so so

353
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Speaker 2: much sense, How much when you can textualize it with

354
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Speaker 2: the decades before and the knowing, It just really to

355
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Speaker 2: me just almost highlights how powerful and layered the wave

356
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Speaker 2: of emotions must have been with the discovery. And you know,

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Speaker 2: there's something that in the wake of that discovery about

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Speaker 2: your family and your identity. You talk about you had

359
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Speaker 2: a flight the next day that you're on the plane

360
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Speaker 2: and you're sort of looking around and people are eating

361
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Speaker 2: pretzels and peanuts and going about their business, and in

362
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Speaker 2: your body, you were in crisis, almost looking around, How

363
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Speaker 2: is how is everyone just going about their business. I

364
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Speaker 2: had lunch with my mother in law days after her

365
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Speaker 2: husband died, and I remember her having that experience. She

366
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Speaker 2: turned to me and she said, it's just so bizarre.

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Speaker 2: You know, people were going about having and meanwhile she

368
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Speaker 2: is sitting there experienced this wave of disbelief and grief

369
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Speaker 2: and heartbreak that is unbearable in the world is just

370
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Speaker 2: moving by. So that scene was really powerful for me.

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Speaker 2: But what you spoke to, which I think is really

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Speaker 2: important to this community, is that the specific discovery about

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Speaker 2: your father was unrelatable and unrecognizable to people. Whereas the

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00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,160
Speaker 2: death of your father, the car crash, some of these

375
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 2: other moments you've had in life. When Jacob was sick

376
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 2: are immediately there's the sense of empathy and understanding. But

377
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Speaker 2: this certain piece discovery that was heartbreaking to you was

378
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Speaker 2: harder for people to grasp, to empathize with, to identify

379
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:33,359
Speaker 2: or understand. And you know, for a podcast that is

380
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 2: about secrets of all shapes and forms, and you know,

381
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 2: the nuance of what a secret can be. I just

382
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 2: thought it would be great to hear what was helpful

383
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Speaker 2: and what was not, so as we moved through the

384
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Speaker 2: world and people share their secrets, we can show up

385
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Speaker 2: better for them.

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Speaker 3: I love that.

387
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there's so much I've learned along the

388
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: way in this regard that feeling of you know, happen

389
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 1: to be your peanuts And watching the in Flight movie,

390
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 1: the thought that went through my mind is that is

391
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 1: the experience of grief, of immediate grief is you know,

392
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Speaker 1: how can the world still be turning? And there are

393
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Speaker 1: so many ways in which I think we as human beings,

394
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Speaker 1: we want to make it better for someone who's going

395
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 1: through something, and if it makes us uncomfortable, we tend

396
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 1: to fall prey to platitudes. I mean, we do that

397
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Speaker 1: even with things that are relatable, like grief, like the

398
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 1: loss of somebody like you know, death, will you know

399
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 1: say things like you know she's in a better place,

400
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: or we tend to often say something that's easy, that

401
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 1: doesn't cost us very much, just to actually deal with

402
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 1: our own discomfort that somebody else is suffering. And you know,

403
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 1: one of the things that happened with my discovery and

404
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: I thought about it even really early on too, because

405
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:01,120
Speaker 1: I know, I knew that I was going to write

406
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 1: about it. I was aware that it was not instantly relatable,

407
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 1: as you say, to feel sympathy or compassion for somebody

408
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 1: who's lost someone very close to them is not a stretch.

409
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: But this felt and I realized very quickly because I

410
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 1: started almost immediately, I sprang into action, which is it

411
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:24,119
Speaker 1: tends to be my way when something's really hard, is

412
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: I kind of go into fix it mode or research mode,

413
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 1: or what can I do. And in that case, as

414
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,159
Speaker 1: we were moving through airports, and because of where we live,

415
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,679
Speaker 1: we had to make connecting flights, so you know, there

416
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 1: were planes, there were airports, there were terminals, there was Starbucks,

417
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 1: there was you know, there are hours to sort of

418
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,919
Speaker 1: observe people and also to talk to people. And I

419
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 1: remember calling one of my aunts, my mother's older brother's wife,

420
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: and I was calling them because I was trying to

421
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 1: figure out whether anybody had ever known anything, you know,

422
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,159
Speaker 1: had my parents told anyone? How big a secret was this?

423
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 1: Was this a secret that everybody was keeping and I

424
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,360
Speaker 1: was the only person who didn't know or did everybody

425
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,719
Speaker 1: not know? And did they not have that you know

426
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 1: hashtag always wondered experience. And on the phone this happened

427
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,439
Speaker 1: as well with my mother's best friend, who I called,

428
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 1: said you know, well, you know, whatever happened, Danny, your

429
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 1: father still your father. And that was profoundly not helpful.

430
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 1: I ultimately, over the course of years and a tremendous

431
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 1: amount of thought and work and questioning and living with

432
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 1: it and metabolizing and processing, absolutely feel that my father

433
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 1: is still my father. But on the day, you know,

434
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: within twenty four hours of discovering that in fact he

435
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 1: was not. In point of fact, there was somebody else

436
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,680
Speaker 1: out there in the world who was my biological father

437
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: that was a total stranger to me, and I had

438
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 1: no idea that that had been the case until that day.

439
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 1: That's not a helpful thing to hear. It made me enraged.

440
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 1: I felt just absolute rage at the don't try to

441
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 1: fix this for me right now. I'm trying to understand

442
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 1: everything that I can possibly come to understand.

443
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,879
Speaker 2: Well, what you say which is so powerful is this

444
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 2: idea that we're sure about the past, or at least

445
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 2: reasonably sure, and uncertain about the future, and that when

446
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 2: you're past became completely uncertain, how disabling and wobbly, that

447
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:42,880
Speaker 2: nothingness almost on both sides, And again the reckoning and

448
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,719
Speaker 2: the knowing that in a whisper becoming real and proof.

449
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:52,640
Speaker 2: Then you're absolutely right. It's people's own discomfort with pain

450
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,479
Speaker 2: and suffering that we so often can't just sit with

451
00:27:55,560 --> 00:28:01,239
Speaker 2: someone in it. But the idea of acceptance, you know,

452
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 2: I see how hard this is. This is painful versus

453
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 2: oh you're still you know, you're still part of the family,

454
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 2: or everything worked out fine, right, This missive of that

455
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:18,199
Speaker 2: extraordinary grief and confusion and uncertainty and trauma that you

456
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 2: were experiencing. It's minimizing something that was really significant.

457
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 3: Yeah.

458
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 1: I learned so much about human nature through that experience,

459
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: and then through the writing of Inheritance and then the

460
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 1: publishing of Inheritance, which meant that I was having many,

461
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: many conversations with people, and you know, and everybody had

462
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: different opinions, and the world really divided between people. Fortunately,

463
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: most people who sat back and thought, huh, what would

464
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: that be like? Let me see if I can imagine

465
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: what it would be like to wake up one day

466
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 1: and discover that everything that I had believed, my entire history,

467
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: my memories, all need to be reordered now, and there's

468
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 1: no one to ask about it. There's no one My

469
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: parents were both gone. There was no one to sit

470
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 1: down and say what happened? And why didn't you tell me?

471
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,959
Speaker 1: And how did you feel about it? And did it

472
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 1: matter to you? And was this always hard or did

473
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: you forget it ever happened, just you know, to have

474
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 1: that conversation. I think that in writing Inheritance, which was

475
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: the hardest books that I've ever written, I had to

476
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 1: stay conscious as a writer about the universality. I had

477
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 1: to constantly ask myself the question, what is universal about

478
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 1: my experience? How can I invite the reader into my

479
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: experience in a way that the reader's going to understand?

480
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 1: And as a writer, and as somebody who had written

481
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of books prior, I was able to

482
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 1: really focus on doing that as a writer.

483
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 2: How painful was the dismissal When it was.

484
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 3: This, Oh, it still happens.

485
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: People will say something like, you know, what's the big deal?

486
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: Or you know, they'll somehow turn the volume up on

487
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 1: the privilege argument, which is like, look at everything that

488
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: you have. You know, you got great genes, you know,

489
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: you're so fortunate. Are you glad you're here? That sort

490
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: of thing. I what I experienced that as is very

491
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: wounding because what it boils down to is not being seen,

492
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 1: not being seen, not being understood.

493
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 3: You know.

494
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: I always begin my Family Secrets episodes with asking my

495
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: guests to tell me about the landscape of their childhood.

496
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 1: That was the landscape of my childhood. My hair could

497
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: have been on fire, and I could have been, you know,

498
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: walking on my hands, and nobody would have noticed. And

499
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 1: so I think when those moments come up or someone

500
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: will say to me as happened recently, someone told me

501
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 1: that they have a grown child who was conceived using

502
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: a donor and that they have never told that child

503
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: and asked me what I.

504
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 3: Thought they should do. And it gets very tricky.

505
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 1: For me because I almost feel like I'm having a

506
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: conversation with my own mother when somebody says something like

507
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: that to me. And I do have very strong opinions

508
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 1: about the corrosive power of secrets. And look, I understand

509
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 1: why my parents didn't tell me, and I am very

510
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: happy to be here.

511
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 3: I really love my life.

512
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 1: And even when I didn't love my life and was

513
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 1: feeling sort of like a just like an alien, as

514
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: a result of this discovery, I would look at my son,

515
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 1: who's just this magnificent person, and I would think, without

516
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 1: any of this, you wouldn't be here. You change one

517
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 1: single thing about any of this, you would not exist.

518
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: So I'm very happy that everything happened exactly the way

519
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: it happened. I understand that my parents couldn't tell me

520
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: because no one in that generation did.

521
00:31:58,360 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 3: No one.

522
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 1: You know, we live in a culture and in a

523
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 1: society that so badly wants to put everything into its

524
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: basket and have everything like remain in its lane. And

525
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 1: once that is the ground that you spring from. Once

526
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 1: there is that wound, there always is that wound. Closure

527
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: is a myth, healing is incomplete. There are always scars.

528
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: When my son was little, we used to play this

529
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 1: game Shoots and Ladders, and you know, you're kind of

530
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 1: moving your little piece along on the on the board

531
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: and then you know, you roll the dice and you

532
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: you hit a certain square and it's a shoot, and

533
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you were on that square. Youre

534
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: in the you were in the present, you were making

535
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: progress on the path, and boom, you're back down to

536
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:48,959
Speaker 1: like where you began. And sometimes there's a ladder and

537
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: you get to climb up. I feel like that's a

538
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: metaphor for what we commonly, you know, and probably over

539
00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 1: use the term triggering, Like something will trigger that feeling,

540
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: that very solitary, lonely, not being seen, not being understood feeling.

541
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: And even though I'm sixty years old and even though

542
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: I have this big, rich, wonderful life, I can be

543
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: brought right back there.

544
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the intensity of it, because as you said,

545
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 2: your body remembers, so it's so amplified because of that,

546
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 2: the intensity and the amplification because of the history and

547
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,479
Speaker 2: the wiring of the story in your body.

548
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: Right, and it remains as alive as it's ever been.

549
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 1: I mean, you know Besil vander Kulk, who was a

550
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 1: guest in a bonus episode of Family Secrets a while back.

551
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: You know, the body keeps the score. I mean, it's

552
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 1: one of the great titles of all time. I mean,

553
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 1: the body does keep the score. And no amount of

554
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: knowledge or intellectualizing.

555
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 2: Or meditating or lemon juice at.

556
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: All, meditation, lemon juice, yoga therapy, talk therapy, you know,

557
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 1: cognitive behavioral therapy, e MDR. You know, it all helps,

558
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 1: but it's never going to make it go away.

559
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:13,800
Speaker 3: And and that's okay.

560
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: I really feel like to have that go away would

561
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 1: actually be what would what would that even mean? It

562
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 1: would be like I'd be like sort of amputating a

563
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 1: part of myself that that lived, you know, that lived

564
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 1: that story.

565
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. And the work is the softening of it, right,

566
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 2: not the eradication exactly exactly.

567
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: I love that word soften and I think about it

568
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 1: a lot and try to sort of model it in

569
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: my life, that that feeling of yoga teacher friend of mine,

570
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 1: Elena Brower, once said to me as I was getting

571
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 1: ready to go on book tour, and I pulled my back,

572
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 1: you know, like picking my suitcase off my bed. And

573
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 1: I called her, because she travels all the time, and said,

574
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: how do you do it? And she said, move softly

575
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 1: through the world. And I constantly it's like a mantra.

576
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 1: I think about that when I'm moving through the world,

577
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 1: when I'm having an off day, just move softly, just

578
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: you know, be gentle with yourself.

579
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:12,720
Speaker 3: We'll be right.

580
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:21,839
Speaker 2: Back in thinking about the discovery of you, you being

581
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 2: the secret, as you have said, and eventually that you

582
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 2: would meet your biological father, and that as a result,

583
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 2: you would create a podcast called Family Secrets, which would

584
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 2: reach millions of people around the world. And I can

585
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 2: only imagine the ripple effect of the families and the

586
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:44,759
Speaker 2: conversations and the healing and that have occurred. And I

587
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 2: couldn't not think deeply about for all of the realities

588
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 2: of technology and the world, and the good and the bad,

589
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 2: the intersection of technology and humanity and technology and human story,

590
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 2: and particular arc that at this time and place, the

591
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 2: identity would have never been exposed because the technology didn't

592
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 2: exist to understand your genes in the way that we

593
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 2: can now by simply your husband telling you in the kitchen, hey,

594
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 2: spodness vile, that you meeting your biological father, and you

595
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,760
Speaker 2: paint in the book you peering into each other's world.

596
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:27,879
Speaker 2: I mean, he's really getting to know you through your

597
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 2: writing and seeing pictures and almost I think this sense

598
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 2: of safety and security and looking at that you and

599
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 2: your the pictures and your words, that this is a

600
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 2: safe person to meet in person and connect or at

601
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 2: least that was my experience. And then you turn to

602
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 2: podcasting and had this been twenty years ago, none of

603
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 2: that would have existed or been available in a way

604
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 2: that it is now and the reach that it is now.

605
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 1: Absolutely yeah, and it would have been you know, one

606
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 1: of my favorite quotes from sort of Buddhist literature has

607
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: to do with dharma, and it's you know, when it

608
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: comes to dharma or your life's calling, if you're off

609
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 1: by a centimeter, you might as well be off by

610
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 1: a mile. And if I had lived my whole life,

611
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 1: especially given what I've done in my life and the

612
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 1: excavating that I've done and the writing book after book

613
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: about you know, family and identity and different kinds of

614
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 1: you know, novels and memoirs that all really kind of

615
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 1: dealt with secrets in one way or another. And if

616
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 1: I had never known, I think there always would have

617
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 1: been something that was off by a centimeter. It's what

618
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 1: it felt like, even though I had reached a point

619
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,800
Speaker 1: in my life where I had a you know, tremendous

620
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: amount of stability and love and family and work that

621
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 1: I love and you know, felt and feel very blessed

622
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 1: in that way, but that centimeter would have been there.

623
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: And the thing about the podcast and also about publishing Inheritance,

624
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 1: it is one of the things I realized. And this

625
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,840
Speaker 1: actually goes back to Besil vander Kolk again. In The

626
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 1: Body Keeps the Score, he talks about trauma and the

627
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 1: different ways that people recover from or have trouble recovering

628
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 1: from traumatic events. Is that if it's a traumatic event

629
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 1: that has trapped you, say, you know, something where you

630
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:31,240
Speaker 1: were powerless. You know, you're in a car watching someone

631
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 1: you know and someone in another car not make it,

632
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,879
Speaker 1: or you know, a crash. You know, there are many

633
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 1: examples that I don't want to trigger my listeners with,

634
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 1: but you know, if you're in a state of powerlessness

635
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 1: when you are traumatized, there tends to be a more difficult,

636
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 1: challenging outcome in terms of dealing with that trauma as

637
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 1: opposed to the kind of trauma that allows for a

638
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 1: kind of agency. And when I was reading that, I

639
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 1: was rereading The Body Keeps the Score before Bessel came

640
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 1: on my show, and I thought, Oh, that's what I've done.

641
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 1: I wrote a book about this experience that has helped

642
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:16,800
Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of people and has actually had an impact.

643
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: You know, parents have told their children when they never planned.

644
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 2: On time, you wrote it the book you needed on

645
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 2: the shelf at that very moment.

646
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:23,399
Speaker 3: Yeah.

647
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,280
Speaker 1: And it turned out that a lot of other people

648
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 1: did too, And I started hearing about that, and so

649
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,439
Speaker 1: there was this tremendousness of purpose to what had been

650
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 1: extremely painful and hard and traumatic and shocking. And then

651
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 1: Family Secrets, which has been like really one of the

652
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:44,760
Speaker 1: great gifts in my life. I started this podcast by accident.

653
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 1: I had no idea what I was doing. I was

654
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 1: on the phone with my friend Sylvia Borstein, who whose

655
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 1: episode is in the first season of Family Secrets. She

656
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 1: is an early reader of mine. She read a draft

657
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 1: of Inheritance, and she proceeded to tell me a story

658
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 1: about it family secret, and I just thought, oh my god,

659
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 1: I wish everyone could hear this. This is a really moving,

660
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 1: beautiful story, and she's an amazing storyteller. And the next

661
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 1: thought that went through my mind as I was sitting

662
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 1: on the phone was, Huh, I wonder if there's a

663
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 1: podcast about family secrets. And there wasn't you know, there

664
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,399
Speaker 1: are times in our lives where the dominoes just all

665
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 1: fall in a certain direction, you know, in a good

666
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 1: way or in a not good way. That was in

667
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 1: an extremely good way. And then there was this coincidence,

668
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 1: which is that she was coming to visit me. She

669
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 1: lives in the Bay Area. She was coming to New

670
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 1: England to visit me in a few weeks. And so

671
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 1: the podcast company that I was connected to said, you know,

672
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 1: we'll send a sound engineer. Let's just give it a

673
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,720
Speaker 1: let's give it a whirl. Why don't you have a conversation.

674
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 1: We'll see what we've got. And we did that, and

675
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,240
Speaker 1: then everybody got really excited. I never had a dream

676
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,919
Speaker 1: that it would be a huge successful podcast. I didn't

677
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 1: even know what that meant when it hit the iTunes

678
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,359
Speaker 1: top ten the week it came out, I thought maybe

679
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: all podcasts did that.

680
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 3: I truly had.

681
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 2: No idea, because we all have secrets, right, so I

682
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 2: would think, because it's so deeply universal, and to focus

683
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 2: in and zoom in on a beautiful, inspiring and uplifting

684
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:21,920
Speaker 2: aspect of your work and secrets, so often there is liberation,

685
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 2: and certainly in your work and inheritance, you write a

686
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 2: lot about the liberation in the sense it sort of

687
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 2: created this blank page for you to be and explore

688
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:44,760
Speaker 2: who you want to be, including changing your name, a tattoo,

689
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 2: all of these these things because you weren't as tethered

690
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 2: to your story of origin or your generational story. And

691
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 2: certainly we know obviously in this community that that secrets

692
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 2: can be deeply freeing in a sense and healing, as

693
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 2: difficult as the process is to move through them.

694
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, well, the knowledge is a kind of

695
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 1: its own kind of superpower, no matter how hard it is,

696
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 1: the knowledge, after a long time of being shoved under

697
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 1: the rug, being in some way compartmentalized, because I really

698
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 1: do think that most of the time the secret's being

699
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 1: kept from us on some level, we do know that?

700
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,399
Speaker 1: And if we are the secret keeper, were haunted by

701
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 1: the burden of carrying that secret, And then you know

702
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:37,840
Speaker 1: the secrets that we keep from ourselves, you know. That

703
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: was the story of my life. I mean, I was

704
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 1: having a secret keft from me, but I was also

705
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 1: keeping a secret from myself because it was impossible and

706
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 1: too dangerous to know. So I used to ask my

707
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 1: guests in every episode, I would ask them in the interview,

708
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,399
Speaker 1: do you wish you hadn't found out? And not one

709
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 1: single one of my guests said, yeah, I wish I

710
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 1: hadn't found out.

711
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,040
Speaker 2: I kept a secret for twenty four years and I

712
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 2: shared it on my podcast three years ago that I

713
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 2: have bipolar disorder, and the amount of the weight, the

714
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 2: shame and the secrecy and the work of covering it

715
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 2: up I was. I mean, I would go on a

716
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 2: girl's trip and leave my little makeup bag that had

717
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 2: all my meds in it and leave it unzipped. And

718
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 2: when I thought my hand would shake, that somebody had,

719
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 2: you know, as if they would spend their time googling

720
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 2: with all the medications. But that was my level of

721
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 2: fear of being seen, of being known for who I

722
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 2: really am, and the brain I was given in this world.

723
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,760
Speaker 2: And you know, on the outside, I was working for Oprah,

724
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 2: I had three kids, happily married. Obviously my three kids

725
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,840
Speaker 2: and my love of my husband is very real, but

726
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 2: there were pieces of my mental health that were really

727
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 2: hard to manage, and so stepping out of that shame.

728
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 2: I cannot tell you the freedom, the liberation, the healing

729
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 2: and what I think about your work on this podcast,

730
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 2: and it certainly was not my intention when I shared,

731
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 2: but the message it sends generationally, I believe to my

732
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:27,799
Speaker 2: kids is that not that there's no place for it,

733
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:33,240
Speaker 2: but shame and secrecy will not win stepping into your truth.

734
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 2: I just think, you know, my daughter even said to

735
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 2: me she was talking about a friend talking about her

736
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 2: mom's mental health, and she was curious, like, I'm confused

737
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 2: why everyone keeps it a secret and you talk about

738
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 2: it so openly. So I think the work that you

739
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:54,399
Speaker 2: are doing, the impact will live on as people share

740
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,879
Speaker 2: their secrets and heal from them and are move into

741
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:02,919
Speaker 2: this place of freedom, which I deeply sensed that you've experienced.

742
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 2: And for me, it's been perhaps one of the greatest

743
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 2: gifts I've given myself in my life. Was no longer

744
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 2: keeping it a secret.

745
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 1: I love hearing that, and it makes me think really

746
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 1: like it's all of a piece, right, Because if you

747
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 1: keep a secret like the one that you kept out

748
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 1: of shame, out of fear that you won't be perfect,

749
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 1: if you won't see you as the perfect shiny exterior

750
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 1: with the amazing career and the amazing.

751
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 2: Family acted, you'll be judge to see us rights.

752
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 3: And that's not what happens.

753
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 2: Is it. Oh, it is the opposite. People are drawn

754
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 2: to you in a way that is unexplainable. I mean,

755
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 2: within weeks of hitting published and you know, tens of

756
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 2: thousands of people hearing the thing, I'd hit my whole life.

757
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:57,879
Speaker 2: I mean, people in the grocery store I would run

758
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 2: into in town would lean in a little closer. I

759
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 2: mean I thought people would run, and instead they were

760
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 2: drawn in. It was fascinating.

761
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 1: That's a little bit of what I was describing in

762
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 1: terms of the superpower. There's something that feels there's like

763
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:24,919
Speaker 1: radiates a kind of humanity, humility, transparency that makes other

764
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 1: people feel more comfortable with whatever their own stuff is,

765
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 1: because everybody has stuff.

766
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 2: Brene Brown says, you know, when in her work around vulnerability.

767
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 2: You share it with the people who earn the right

768
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 2: to try. And I always am careful to say not

769
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:47,959
Speaker 2: everyone has to shout it on a podcast or from

770
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 2: the mountain. It may just be your family, your friend,

771
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 2: you know. But but the liberation and having it no

772
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 2: longer be a secret, moving it into the light is

773
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 2: where the magic hap exactly. So I listened to your

774
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 2: interview with Jamie Lee Curtis, and you talked about faith,

775
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 2: and faith is a huge part of your story of

776
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 2: your discovery and you being a secret because of your

777
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 2: family's deep lineage and story of their faith, devout faith.

778
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 2: So your book Devotion, you had said in the interview

779
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 2: that that changed you the most, So I'm curious why

780
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:30,239
Speaker 2: and how did it change you.

781
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 1: Devotion was a book that I really did not want

782
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 1: to write. It wanted to be written. I think that's

783
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 1: true with all of my books, but with Devotion. When

784
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 1: I realized what I was embarking on, the title came

785
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 1: to me first, and I realized that I wanted to grapple,

786
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 1: or needed to grapple with my own history.

787
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 3: You know, my son was very young.

788
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 1: He was asking me questions about what I believed, and

789
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 1: I realized I had absolutely nothing to say, because I

790
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 1: had pushed back so hard word against that complicated childhood

791
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 1: of my own that you know, I hadn't replaced it

792
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 1: with anything. I had just rebelled against it. And so

793
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:15,319
Speaker 1: I was raising my son with no rituals. And you know,

794
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 1: certainly I had a spiritual life, and I'm a longtime

795
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:24,720
Speaker 1: practicer of yoga, and I meditate every day. But there

796
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 1: was something I felt like I was not fully doing

797
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 1: for him as his mother that I wanted to be.

798
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 1: And so I started writing this book and it came

799
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 1: out in these little pieces, like little breadcrumbs through a forest.

800
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 1: My mandate to myself was that I was trying to

801
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:47,240
Speaker 1: look at every single passage, every single scene or incident,

802
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: as does this pose a spiritual question that I can

803
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 1: grapple with?

804
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:53,800
Speaker 3: And if it does, it doesn't belong in this book.

805
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 1: And along the way, as I was writing it, I thought,

806
00:48:57,680 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 1: I am I really think I'm writing a book that

807
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 1: no one will read. It's so deeply idiosyncratically me and

808
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:09,080
Speaker 1: I felt and feel a little bit like a unicorn.

809
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 1: So unless you're a unicorn with the same exact unicorn

810
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 1: properties as me, you're not going to be able to

811
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 1: relate to this book. That's what I thought, And then

812
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 1: devotion came out. And what started happening pretty much immediately

813
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:31,840
Speaker 1: was that I started hearing from people readers of every

814
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:39,600
Speaker 1: different stripe, of every different age, gender, you know, nationality, background,

815
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:43,959
Speaker 1: and they all said the same thing, which was, you've

816
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 1: told my story. And that was what was life changing

817
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 1: because it was the first time, and it happened many

818
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 1: times since, but it was the first time that I

819
00:49:55,920 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 1: understood just how alike we are all are on the inside,

820
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 1: that we carry the same anxieties and fears and burdens

821
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:10,920
Speaker 1: and longings, and the content of them may be different,

822
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 1: but the you know, the human experience is not as

823
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 1: distinct or different from each other as as we think

824
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:18,920
Speaker 1: it is.

825
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:22,879
Speaker 3: And and what that did. I had been.

826
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:26,360
Speaker 1: Terrified of public speaking before that, couldn't stand getting up

827
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 1: in front of crowds, which is not great. If you

828
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:31,840
Speaker 1: do what I do, you need to be able to

829
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 1: do that. And it cured that for me. And the

830
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 1: reason why it cured that for me was because I

831
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:42,279
Speaker 1: would look out into an audience and just think we

832
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 1: are connected.

833
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 3: There. There really isn't this, Yeah, yeah, this is safe.

834
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:51,719
Speaker 3: There isn't You're not sitting there.

835
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 1: Judging me. You're sitting there ready to feel something. And

836
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 1: I'm here wanting to offer you that, wanting to give

837
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:03,320
Speaker 1: you that. And so that's what I meant in that

838
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:06,400
Speaker 1: conversation with Jamie about the way it changed me. But

839
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:09,360
Speaker 1: it was really the beginning of that has been true

840
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 1: now throughout these years, since twenty ten when that book

841
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:20,360
Speaker 1: came out, that feeling of if you really tell your story,

842
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:25,400
Speaker 1: and if you tell it true, then what the listener

843
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:29,920
Speaker 1: is going to hear is, oh, that's my story too.

844
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:38,759
Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets.

845
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:44,719
Speaker 2: I found a piece of myself in Inheritance, And the

846
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:48,759
Speaker 2: interesting thing is it was such kind of subplot in

847
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 2: your story, but it was these few sentences and I

848
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 2: highlighted and it literally changed the way I view myself

849
00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 2: as a mother. It didn't change, it gave me language

850
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 2: to it. And you were talking about meeting your biological

851
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 2: half sister, and you said something along the lines of

852
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:11,360
Speaker 2: your illustrating kind of your immediate bond and some of

853
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 2: the things you had in common. And you said serious

854
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 2: about our work and fierce about our children. And I have,

855
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 2: for whatever reason, is somebody who has loved working, who

856
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 2: has been really deeply passionate and ambitious in her work.

857
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 2: I had this deep guilt because I live in a

858
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:32,960
Speaker 2: community where most moms are stay at home moms, that

859
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:34,799
Speaker 2: there was a choice I was making and I had

860
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 2: to be one or the other. And you saying that

861
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:40,839
Speaker 2: it was okay to be serious about your work and

862
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:44,479
Speaker 2: fierce about your kids. I literally went on a walk

863
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:48,719
Speaker 2: that night and said, that is me. I'm both. I mean,

864
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:52,200
Speaker 2: it was unbelievable, Danny, But I think when you look

865
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:54,760
Speaker 2: out into that sea of people, they're looking for little

866
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:58,960
Speaker 2: pieces of themselves, their little answers or clarity, and it

867
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 2: is something as little as a few sentences gave me

868
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 2: such peace.

869
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 3: Oh I love hearing that.

870
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:08,719
Speaker 1: And it's been my experience that either in teaching or

871
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 1: speaking or writing, you never know exactly what's going to

872
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:16,759
Speaker 1: land or who is going to land with. And in

873
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,319
Speaker 1: a way, it's kind of none of your business as

874
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 1: the writer. You said something too about like finding yourself

875
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:27,319
Speaker 1: in a description or in the language, and you know,

876
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:31,959
Speaker 1: I just want to say one thing because I feel

877
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:34,840
Speaker 1: like it might be helpful, which is that when it

878
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:38,879
Speaker 1: comes to the secrets that we keep from ourselves. I

879
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:42,359
Speaker 1: know no better tool, you know, I mean, listeners will

880
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 1: know that so many of my guests on Family Secrets

881
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:46,240
Speaker 1: are writers.

882
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 3: And that is not.

883
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:50,920
Speaker 1: Because if I wanted to create a literary podcast. It's

884
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:54,720
Speaker 1: not a literary podcast. It's a podcast about family secrets.

885
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 1: But it's often writers because writers, and in this case,

886
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 1: have written books. But the very act of setting words

887
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:08,040
Speaker 1: down on the page, the very act of just trying

888
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:11,279
Speaker 1: to write it out, the very act of attempting to

889
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:16,480
Speaker 1: write it out, actually unlocks things. I think, probably you know,

890
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:19,960
Speaker 1: in the in the top few gifts in my life,

891
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:26,360
Speaker 1: the fact that I became a writer, and that I

892
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 1: got to spend my days and my months and my

893
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:34,239
Speaker 1: years actually following the line of words and not even

894
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:35,839
Speaker 1: knowing where the line of words was going to lead

895
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 1: me has a lot to do with my having been

896
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:42,240
Speaker 1: able to unlock. Of course, I would never have unlocked

897
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:44,239
Speaker 1: it without a DNA test. But you know, when I

898
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 1: look back at my early work, it's actually there on

899
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:50,320
Speaker 1: the page. You know, if I look at my first novel,

900
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:52,800
Speaker 1: it takes my breath away. On some level I knew.

901
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:54,800
Speaker 1: And if I look at my little book on writing

902
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 1: still writing, there are lines in there, like there's there's

903
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:00,359
Speaker 1: there's a line in there where I'm snow being through

904
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 1: my parents' things, and I write, what was I looking

905
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 1: for a clue? A reason? And the word reason is italicized,

906
00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:11,240
Speaker 1: and it's like, what I didn't I didn't know anything?

907
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:13,839
Speaker 1: What did I even mean by that when I wrote

908
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 1: that book that I wrote years before the discovery about

909
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:20,839
Speaker 1: my dad? So there's something about the you know, the

910
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 1: act of the act of writing, and the act of

911
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 1: reading and sort of finding yourself, and the act of

912
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:30,560
Speaker 1: listening to podcasts and this sort of the intimacy of

913
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 1: what that is of you're doing it by yourself. When

914
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:37,239
Speaker 1: you're listening to a podcast, you're listening to it by yourself.

915
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 1: There's no such thing as as far as I know,

916
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:43,360
Speaker 1: as like podcast listening parties, you know, or podcast groups,

917
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 1: like there are book groups. It's intimate and the act

918
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:50,759
Speaker 1: of reading. When you're reading a book, you're doing it

919
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:52,839
Speaker 1: by yourself. Nobody can do that for you. And when

920
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 1: you're writing something, you're writing it by yourself and for yourself.

921
00:55:57,360 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 1: So I think all of these things are ways in

922
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:01,040
Speaker 1: which things get unlocked.

923
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:04,760
Speaker 2: I'm so glad you brought up the intimacy of podcasting,

924
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 2: because I wanted to ask you about this community and

925
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:11,320
Speaker 2: what it's meant to you and how it's contributed to

926
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 2: your healing. But what I've learned as a podcaster is

927
00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:21,640
Speaker 2: I love the work of sharing, being a conduit and

928
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:24,279
Speaker 2: sharing other people's stories. And when you think of the

929
00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:28,879
Speaker 2: intimacy of being in someone's ear on a walk as

930
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 2: they fold their laundry as they drive to work, and

931
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:40,759
Speaker 2: having these really deeply intimate conversations, and the connection and

932
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:44,040
Speaker 2: the opportunity right in a world that's moving so fast,

933
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 2: with so many distractions, to be able to connect that way.

934
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:54,600
Speaker 2: It's a really really powerful medium, and I think it

935
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 2: is really impactful when done with intention, as you do

936
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 2: on this And on that note, I'm really curious. You know,

937
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 2: we've talked about a lot of tent pole moments in

938
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:13,280
Speaker 2: your life, but I know your husband, your great love,

939
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 2: had cancer recently.

940
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:21,640
Speaker 1: Is he in remission, he's considered cured. It was three

941
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 1: years ago.

942
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:27,040
Speaker 2: Three years ago, so I know your husband had cancer.

943
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:30,720
Speaker 2: There was a global pandemic. As much as you're showing

944
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:35,800
Speaker 2: up for this podcast, you are dealing with a real

945
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:40,120
Speaker 2: life and difficulties and pain, and in creating this community

946
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 2: and that connection and intimacy. What has this community meant

947
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:48,720
Speaker 2: to you? How has it changed you? And how has

948
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 2: it healed you.

949
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:55,560
Speaker 1: When I'm doing one of these interviews for episodes, time

950
00:57:55,600 --> 00:58:00,600
Speaker 1: stops for me. I go so deep inside story. I'm

951
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:04,000
Speaker 1: like my entire being is an instrument that is in

952
00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:07,280
Speaker 1: the service of the story that my guest is sharing

953
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:13,000
Speaker 1: with me. And so the actual act of doing the

954
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 1: interview itself feels like a sacred act to me, and

955
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:19,760
Speaker 1: it's it's very intentional. I don't use zoom. I know

956
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 1: a lot of podcasters do, and I don't because it

957
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:30,200
Speaker 1: feels to me more intimate in each other's ears. I mean,

958
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:32,000
Speaker 1: like my eyes are closed right now as I'm talking

959
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 1: to you. I want to be able to go as

960
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:38,080
Speaker 1: deep as I can into the story of my guest.

961
00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 1: And I feel honored that my guest trusts me with

962
00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 1: their story. And I think a big part of why

963
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:48,760
Speaker 1: they do is because I'm not approaching it as a journalist,

964
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 1: and I'm not approaching it. You know, people who have

965
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:53,920
Speaker 1: never listened to the podcast think, ooh, family secrets. You know,

966
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:55,640
Speaker 1: like it must be a kind.

967
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:57,680
Speaker 2: Of sensational elation.

968
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:03,360
Speaker 1: Sensational salacious purient, you know, rubbernecking, watching other people's tragedies,

969
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:06,000
Speaker 1: you know, go by, and that is the very very

970
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:10,400
Speaker 1: last thing that I'm interested in. And so I'm with

971
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:14,640
Speaker 1: my guests very much, with the feeling of me too.

972
00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:17,960
Speaker 1: And at the same time, you know, over the course

973
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:20,720
Speaker 1: of the seven thus far, it's about to be eight

974
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:25,840
Speaker 1: seasons of family Secrets, I've realized that I actually recede

975
00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:29,360
Speaker 1: into the background more and more, and my guests stories

976
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:33,040
Speaker 1: become more and more. I mean, they've always been front

977
00:59:33,080 --> 00:59:36,360
Speaker 1: and center, but I think in the beginning I would

978
00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:40,360
Speaker 1: insert myself more, and I've done that less and less.

979
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:43,360
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure there's vo but it's about the

980
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 1: story itself, and that's been just really interesting for me

981
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:51,360
Speaker 1: to notice. I just feel like I'm so completely in

982
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:54,000
Speaker 1: the service of the stories, and the person who I

983
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:59,040
Speaker 1: most want to reach and to love the episode when

984
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 1: it comes out is my guest. If I've done my job,

985
01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 1: my guest. You know, often somebody who's been interviewed many

986
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:08,920
Speaker 1: many times before will say I never thought that before,

987
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:11,960
Speaker 1: I never made that connection, I never said that, or

988
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:17,240
Speaker 1: I've never cried before while I'm being interviewed. Whatever, it

989
01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:19,680
Speaker 1: is just a feeling of like, I want you to

990
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 1: see your story in a new way. I want you

991
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:25,520
Speaker 1: to see your story maybe with a different dimension or

992
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:29,240
Speaker 1: a little bit more illuminated for you. Then before we

993
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:33,000
Speaker 1: had this conversation and then, you know, one of the

994
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 1: amazing things to me about having a podcast that has

995
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:42,040
Speaker 1: millions of listeners is that it's kind of abstract. I mean,

996
01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:45,680
Speaker 1: I know that there are all these listeners, but as

997
01:00:45,720 --> 01:00:48,160
Speaker 1: I said, like, I could be walking down the street

998
01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:50,720
Speaker 1: and somebody could be walking up the street passing me

999
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:53,120
Speaker 1: with their AirPods in their ears, and they could be

1000
01:00:53,160 --> 01:00:55,200
Speaker 1: listening to me and I wouldn't know it.

1001
01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:58,320
Speaker 2: I've never thought about that, and so there's.

1002
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:00,240
Speaker 1: There's no you know, if if you write a book,

1003
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:02,080
Speaker 1: you know, somebody took a picture the other day of

1004
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:05,960
Speaker 1: somebody on the subway reading my most recent novel, is like, okay,

1005
01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:08,120
Speaker 1: somebody's reading my novel on the subway. If they were

1006
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:10,840
Speaker 1: listening to my podcast, there would be no picture and

1007
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:12,919
Speaker 1: no one would know that. And so there have been

1008
01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:15,600
Speaker 1: these moments and they are so meaningful to me. But

1009
01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:19,640
Speaker 1: I was at a wedding last summer when a young

1010
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:21,280
Speaker 1: woman came up to me and she said, you're Danny

1011
01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:25,200
Speaker 1: Shapiro right said yeah, and she said, my entire family,

1012
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:29,400
Speaker 1: like you've changed our lives. We've all listened to Family

1013
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:32,040
Speaker 1: Secrets and it enabled us to talk about things that

1014
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:33,800
Speaker 1: we had never been able to talk about before.

1015
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:36,400
Speaker 3: And what an immense.

1016
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:41,040
Speaker 1: Privilege to have anything to do with helping people to

1017
01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:45,720
Speaker 1: feel less alone in there, you know, whatever it is

1018
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:49,080
Speaker 1: that is making them feel a part or alone, and

1019
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:52,240
Speaker 1: that's just amazing to me and wonderful, and it does

1020
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:55,280
Speaker 1: feel you know, sometimes I record bonus episodes and I'll

1021
01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:58,880
Speaker 1: refer to my world of listeners as the Family Secrets family,

1022
01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:00,480
Speaker 1: because that's what it feels like to me.

1023
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:04,400
Speaker 2: And the privilege on both ends, I mean, I often think,

1024
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:09,520
Speaker 2: and you just express this, the privilege and the honor

1025
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:14,400
Speaker 2: for someone in our case, the guest, to trust you

1026
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:18,280
Speaker 2: with their hearts. I mean, the bravery and courage it

1027
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:24,120
Speaker 2: takes to not only share the most vulnerable pieces of yourself,

1028
01:02:24,240 --> 01:02:27,600
Speaker 2: but to share it knowing it'll be broadcast, you know,

1029
01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:31,200
Speaker 2: around the world, and who you choose to trust that

1030
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:35,560
Speaker 2: story with. So I think, you know the privilege of

1031
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:38,560
Speaker 2: being the conduit between the family that was changed and

1032
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:44,280
Speaker 2: the person, the guest, who chose you right, who trusted

1033
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:48,120
Speaker 2: you with their heart, And it really is like when

1034
01:02:48,120 --> 01:02:50,840
Speaker 2: you think about it deeply, the work is it makes

1035
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:51,360
Speaker 2: you hurtful.

1036
01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:54,240
Speaker 3: It's really true. It's really true.

1037
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 1: And it's the way that I think of myself when

1038
01:02:58,320 --> 01:03:00,680
Speaker 1: I'm putting together episodes and when I'm pairing for them

1039
01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:04,880
Speaker 1: and when I'm doing the interview, is I'm trying to

1040
01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:09,640
Speaker 1: do my best to hold the story, like to hold

1041
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:13,280
Speaker 1: it in my arms, to be the container for it,

1042
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:16,680
Speaker 1: to make the container for it. And you know, to

1043
01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:20,760
Speaker 1: be trusted with doing that is just a really wonderful thing.

1044
01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:26,520
Speaker 2: So my last question. You write so lovingly about your aunt,

1045
01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:30,960
Speaker 2: who has played, you know, such a exquisite role in

1046
01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:35,400
Speaker 2: your life, and I heard you on the podcast that

1047
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:40,000
Speaker 2: she says, go where it's warm, So my last question

1048
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:44,720
Speaker 2: is what does that mean to you? And where do

1049
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:45,560
Speaker 2: you go to be warm?

1050
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:50,360
Speaker 1: I think that there are people and places for all

1051
01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:55,640
Speaker 1: of us where we feel our safest, where we feel

1052
01:03:55,680 --> 01:04:01,640
Speaker 1: seen and known, where we feel the absence of certain things,

1053
01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:05,880
Speaker 1: like the absence of competitiveness, the absence of envy, the

1054
01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:10,360
Speaker 1: absence of comparison, where we are with people that we

1055
01:04:10,520 --> 01:04:15,160
Speaker 1: know are rooting for us and want the best for us.

1056
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:22,360
Speaker 1: And I think sometimes when we don't come from when

1057
01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:25,760
Speaker 1: the initial landscape of our childhoods isn't that it's a

1058
01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:28,880
Speaker 1: learning experience along the way, because we can be drawn

1059
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:34,840
Speaker 1: to places where it isn't warm because it's familiar. And

1060
01:04:35,480 --> 01:04:40,280
Speaker 1: one of the benefits of living long enough and learning

1061
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:44,160
Speaker 1: enough and getting older is that I really don't have

1062
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:48,600
Speaker 1: the patience for that anymore in my life. To the

1063
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:51,840
Speaker 1: degree that I can choose who I want to, but

1064
01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:53,760
Speaker 1: we can't always choose who are going to be around.

1065
01:04:53,800 --> 01:04:56,320
Speaker 1: But to the degree that I can, I want to

1066
01:04:56,480 --> 01:05:02,720
Speaker 1: choose to be with people who who love me and

1067
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:06,120
Speaker 1: who I love and really to have time with them,

1068
01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:11,960
Speaker 1: to not be racing, to not be always onto the next.

1069
01:05:12,600 --> 01:05:15,200
Speaker 1: And we live in a world that you know, that

1070
01:05:15,280 --> 01:05:21,760
Speaker 1: doesn't reward depths or quiet. I think increasingly there is

1071
01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:24,480
Speaker 1: a I think there's there's a bit of a move

1072
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:29,920
Speaker 1: toward understanding how important depths and quiet, And you know,

1073
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:33,080
Speaker 1: sitting with the Danish have this beautiful word that I

1074
01:05:33,160 --> 01:05:36,240
Speaker 1: never pronounced right. It's spelled hygge, and I think it's

1075
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:39,560
Speaker 1: yuga yuga, and it's the meaning is a kind of

1076
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:46,200
Speaker 1: like a relaxed, open, warm, inviting environment, and that's that's

1077
01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:48,680
Speaker 1: what I want to create for the people around me,

1078
01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:51,880
Speaker 1: and that's how I want to live my life and

1079
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:53,480
Speaker 1: spend my time in whatever way I can.

1080
01:05:54,360 --> 01:06:00,080
Speaker 2: That's beautiful. I just interviewed a depth Dula and she,

1081
01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:02,480
Speaker 2: you know, walks with the dying in the last weeks

1082
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:05,080
Speaker 2: and months of their lives, and she referred to them

1083
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:08,400
Speaker 2: as the wisdom keepers. And I asked her, you know,

1084
01:06:08,480 --> 01:06:11,560
Speaker 2: if there was one piece of advice and wisdom, and

1085
01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:14,480
Speaker 2: that was exactly what she said. She said, just to

1086
01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:18,880
Speaker 2: slow down and make space to just be with your people.

1087
01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:21,640
Speaker 1: Because really time is all we have. And you learn that,

1088
01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:24,520
Speaker 1: I mean, you mentioned my husband's illness. If I didn't

1089
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:27,400
Speaker 1: know that already, it was completely brought home to me

1090
01:06:28,000 --> 01:06:33,800
Speaker 1: that when you're facing something terrifying like that, all you

1091
01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:36,000
Speaker 1: really want is time.

1092
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:41,880
Speaker 2: Well, Danny, you have made such beautiful meaning out of

1093
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:44,520
Speaker 2: your discovery of your secret and the work of Family

1094
01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:48,919
Speaker 2: Secrets and the community you have built which feels very

1095
01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:52,400
Speaker 2: warm to me, a very warm place to go. So

1096
01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:55,560
Speaker 2: thank you for that, and thank you for trusting me

1097
01:06:56,000 --> 01:07:00,560
Speaker 2: to have this conversation and yeah, hopefully share some new

1098
01:07:00,600 --> 01:07:04,400
Speaker 2: pieces of yourself with your Family Secrets Family.

1099
01:07:04,560 --> 01:07:07,120
Speaker 3: Oh, Kimmy, thank you so much. It was really interesting

1100
01:07:07,120 --> 01:07:17,200
Speaker 3: to have the tables turned. Phew.

1101
01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:22,080
Speaker 1: Well, that was meaningful and intense. I'm reminded of the

1102
01:07:22,120 --> 01:07:27,120
Speaker 1: courage it takes to share oneself fully, openly, with vulnerability

1103
01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:31,040
Speaker 1: and heart. My thanks to Kimmy Kulp as well as

1104
01:07:31,040 --> 01:07:35,240
Speaker 1: to my amazing team. Family Secrets is an iHeartMedia production.

1105
01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:39,160
Speaker 1: Mollie's a Core is story editor and Dylan Fagan is

1106
01:07:39,240 --> 01:07:43,160
Speaker 1: executive producer. We'll be back in your ears on May

1107
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:47,120
Speaker 1: fourth with our all new season. I couldn't be more

1108
01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:48,600
Speaker 1: excited to share it with you.