1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 1: Body doctors with Joseph's gotten more. January twenty sixth, twenty eleven. 2 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: I guess, by all measure is kind of an innocuous date. 3 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:17,639 Speaker 1: I don't remember what I was doing on that date, 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: and unless it's your birthday perhaps, or you had some 5 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: seminal event that occurred, most of us would just look 6 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: at that date and just kind of march on. That's 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: what we did right in life. But for one family, 8 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:42,480 Speaker 1: that date marks a moment in time that will be 9 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 1: forever written in their hearts. It's the date of the 10 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: death of Ellen Greenberg, and it also marks that moment 11 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: in time when both her mama and her daddy We're 12 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: scarred forever. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybacks 13 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: brother Dave fourteen fourteen one, four fourteen years later, and 14 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: we have had I don't know, people throw around the 15 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: term seismic many times, but we've had kind of a 16 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: seismic shift I think just in the past forty eight 17 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: hours relative to this case that has just it's gone 18 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: on and on forever and ever involved in Ellen and 19 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: her death. And there's been a ruling on the civil 20 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: side of all this, and I think that it is 21 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: kind of seismic, at least when you look at it 22 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: from the perspective of the fan. Would you agree with. 23 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 2: That, Yes, one hundred percent, because we have the death 24 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 2: of Ellen Greenberg, and you and Nancy have done Nancy 25 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:15,079 Speaker 2: Grace have done a remarkable job of studying this case, 26 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 2: and you know more about it than a lot of 27 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 2: the investigators probably and I have wondered ever since we've 28 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 2: started with this show of how is it possible that 29 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 2: in Ellen Greenberg's case, that she could go have so 30 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 2: many injuries, have her death ruled a homicide, and then 31 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 2: without explanation, without warning, it's changed from homicide to suicide 32 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 2: and sits there for the next fourteen years with the family, 33 00:02:54,160 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 2: the parents going through the most heartbreaking of cases, just 34 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:03,919 Speaker 2: trying to get justice for their daughter. They don't believe 35 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 2: for a second that she committed suicide. The facts don't 36 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 2: seem to bear it out, but they've been like sis 37 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 2: if it was pushing the you know, the the boulder 38 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 2: up the hill. Yeah, and I'm blown away that. Thankfully 39 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 2: today we actually are able to talk about some movement 40 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:24,239 Speaker 2: forward that actually makes sense, and we have a medical examiner, 41 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 2: doctor Osborne, who actually is the guy who originally said 42 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 2: it was a homicide and then changed to suicide and 43 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:35,119 Speaker 2: has refused to change it back since. And I don't 44 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 2: even know how that plays out, Joe. I hope you 45 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 2: can explain it. 46 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: So yeah, I am gonna I am going to kind 47 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: of lay that out here. Lord knows, you know, when 48 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: when you get look, there's there are no guarantees in 49 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: this life that that you're going to have peace. I 50 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: think people labor under that delusion that life is going 51 00:03:58,360 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: to be perfect when you get to be a certain 52 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: age and it's not. As a matter of fact, you 53 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: have all kinds of things that happen, but for them 54 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: being up in age, and you know, there were residents 55 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: up up in PA and when all of this happened, 56 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 1: and people don't realize that. You know, Greenberg is a clinician. 57 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I think, if I'm not mistaken, he's a dentist. 58 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: He has a baseline understanding of pathology and human disease pathology. 59 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 1: And here's another thing that he understands. He understands bibomechanics. 60 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: You know, the way the human body moves. And I 61 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: think for someone to sit there and you're trying to 62 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 1: explain to him from a medical legal perspective, that this 63 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,359 Speaker 1: is in fact plausible that his daughter could have self 64 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 1: inflicted twenty Some people say more because there's some overlapping, 65 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 1: but twenty sharp force injuries and not to mention multiple 66 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: multiple contusions over the surface of her body. I think 67 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 1: that it would it would give it would give anybody pause. 68 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: But you have somebody that has a scientific mind like him, 69 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: and the equation just doesn't add up, you know, if 70 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 1: you apply logic to it. And I think that that 71 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: was one of the big driving forces, you know, and 72 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: then you know, to try to explain this a way 73 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: to try to say that this is in fact suicide 74 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 1: is very very difficult. But you know, back to my 75 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: case in point, I don't know if if many people 76 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: understand the financial burden that this has just wrecked on 77 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 1: this family and because they have literally given up everything. 78 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: I mean, they they've had to sell their house, they've 79 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: moved away to another state now, and it has been 80 00:05:56,960 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: such a grind day for them. And you know, you 81 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: look at this in this precious child that you held 82 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: in your arms and that you nurtured, and you you know, 83 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 1: and she raised her adulthood. That's actually at the functioning, 84 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: got a job, you know, the whole nine yards, and 85 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: is in a relationship. You know, it's everything that you 86 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: could probably want. I'm sure that there were problems. Everybody 87 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: has them. We're not free in this life of problems. 88 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: There's no guarantees, but you get them to this point 89 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 1: and the next thing you know, she's found with a 90 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 1: knife sticking out of her chest, in her in her kitchen, 91 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: you know, in this kind of weird position on the 92 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 1: floor in an apartment that was locked from the inside. 93 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 2: Can we can we break that down a little bit, Joe, 94 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 2: For those who are who don't know the case as 95 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 2: well as you do, or even me. The death of 96 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 2: Ellen Greenberg happened on a blizzard. As the blizzard is 97 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 2: on the way and in Philadelphia, and she's a teacher 98 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 2: at school, engaged, and she gets home. She stops for 99 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 2: gas on the way home, because you know, most of 100 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 2: us know when you have bad weather on the way, 101 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 2: you go ahead and get extra gas in your car 102 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 2: just in case. And that's what she did. Stops Mike, 103 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 2: gets gas and goes home. Now she's preparing dinner. She's 104 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 2: got food on the counter, she's cutting up a salad 105 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 2: in some other things. Her boyfriend or fiance brother leaves 106 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 2: the apartment to go to the gym on site to 107 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 2: work out, and in between the time that he leaves 108 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 2: the apartment to go work out and the time that 109 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 2: he returns, Ellen Greenberg decides, you know what, I'm tired 110 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 2: of cutting up this salad. I'm tired of thinking about 111 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 2: getting married. I'm tired of thinking about my career. And 112 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 2: you know what, it's just time for me to leave. 113 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 2: And I mean, that's the story we are told to believe, 114 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 2: and up until the last forty eight hours and then 115 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 2: what takes place physically, you know, to her that that 116 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 2: up until now, they've suggested that she did this to herself. 117 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 2: She tortured herself in such a way. Joe, I can't 118 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 2: even physically figure out how you would inflict all this 119 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 2: damage on yourself, no matter how committed you were. It 120 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 2: boggles my mind. So did I set the table up 121 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 2: properly to get to the point? 122 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: Okay, no, no, you did, brother. And that's the thing 123 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: about it, you know, with this it it's one thing. 124 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: And I've had people, Look, I've had people ask me 125 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: over these many years that that Nancy and I and 126 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: others have and my friend Gavin Fish have been talking 127 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: about Ellen's case. Well, Morgan, you're the one that was, 128 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: you know, in the trenches, and you you worked as 129 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: a medical legal death investigator. Have you ever seen self 130 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: inflictedab wounds? Are cuttings, well, cuttings, cuttings and stab wounds 131 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,079 Speaker 1: or let's say, insized wounds are different if you think 132 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: about people that have sliced their wrists, okay, in an 133 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: attempt to take their own life. Yes, and I've seen 134 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: various modalities. I've seen everything from butcher knives to as 135 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: we say in South Louisiana, filay knives. I've seen red 136 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: devil razor blades, scraping razor blades with actual duct tape 137 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: taped around the blunt edge so that they can maintain 138 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 1: a grip on it. A lot of planning went into that. So, yes, 139 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: the insized wounds as a means to take one's on 140 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: life do, in fact happen. More rare, however, are stab wounds. 141 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 1: And just so that we're clear, stab wounds literally taking 142 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: the business end of the knive, that sharp point and 143 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:08,119 Speaker 1: driving it into into one's person, okay, into a potentially 144 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: fatal location. That has happened but Dave that that is 145 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: by far the exception as opposed to the norm. I 146 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: don't I think that people, even in a heightened state 147 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: of of I don't know how to say it, psychiatric 148 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: distress for instance, even even that is really off putting 149 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: for them to think about stabbing, stabbing oneself, and you 150 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: you have to do it multiple times, many times, because 151 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: you don't know if you're actually going to strike a 152 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: vital area, Because just because you stab yourself does not 153 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: mean that it's going to end your life. With Ellen, 154 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: we've got, as people have stated, and as I've previously stated, 155 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: stat wounds, and they're not they are not anatomically consistent throughout. 156 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: And I'm talking about just the anatomical makeup of the 157 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: location of the injuries that cover her day. They're both 158 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: anterior which means front and post heior, and not just posterior. 159 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: But we're talking about getting into literally, we're talking about 160 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: getting into the cranial vault, where we're talking about going 161 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: near the brainstem, brushing up against it, which is one 162 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: of the big bones of contention in this case and 163 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: has been. There was a pathologist at the Medical Examiner's 164 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: office in Philly, not Osborne one of his colleagues that 165 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: was actually deposed because she had viewed she had viewed 166 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: the samples and everything, and she actually concluded that Ellen 167 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:00,080 Speaker 1: sustained post mortem injuries, particularly one of these in the 168 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: back of her neck. Now, how do you explain that? 169 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: And that's that's the toughest thing here. 170 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 2: I think Lember of injuries, Joe, how many times did 171 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 2: she actually have knife injuries to her body? 172 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 1: Yeah? Right at twenty and there has been over the 173 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: period of time. I think some people have questioned an 174 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: assessment and this is not this is not I'm not 175 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: throwing as the young folks say, I'm not throwing shade 176 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: on doctor Osborne here. But one can have overlapping injuries. 177 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: We get it a lot with gunshot woes. We have 178 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: multiple gunshot woes, or where you have multiple assaults like 179 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: blunt force trauma that leave lacerations, and you'll have these 180 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: communicating injuries. There's a couple of injuries that they thought 181 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: might communicate or it may have been one as opposed 182 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: to And again it comes back to how much can 183 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:02,959 Speaker 1: you tolerate as an individual who is self inflicting these insults, 184 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: And that's that's the big question. Isn't it. Dave Ken, 185 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: a young woman who has her life laid out before her, suddenly, 186 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: in the midst of food preparation, stare down at a 187 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 1: household kitchen knife and decide in that one moment that 188 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 1: she is in fact going to end her life there 189 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: on the floor of where she has prepared meals for many, 190 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: many months. I want to tell you something, Dave, I've had. 191 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: I've had when you can elicit most of the time 192 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: when you can listit a a response from a forensic 193 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: pathologist in the autopsy room, like that, there's kind of 194 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: this moment in time when forensic pathologist you open you 195 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 1: open the bag for the first time, the body bag, 196 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: and when you can elicit a response from the from 197 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: the forensic pathologist of oh my, it's it's a moment 198 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: that you should mark, I think because most of the 199 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: time nothing really phases them, and most of the time 200 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: you're going to see this when you have multiple, multiple injuries, 201 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: like like grossly over the top. And I can only 202 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: imagine when doctor Osborne walked into the autopsy suite that 203 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: day and the text are there, the photographers are there, 204 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: and they unzip that bag and pull that flat back 205 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: and here you have this young woman that's laid out 206 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: before you, and she's got multiple stab wounds all over 207 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: her body. And listen, we're talking about Philly Day. This 208 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: is nothing in that environment for Seed for them to 209 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: see a gross amount of trauma on a body. But 210 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: even I think that it would give him pause at 211 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: that moment in time to say, well, let's try to 212 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: work this out. And you know, one of the most 213 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: difficult things about trying to understand multiple trauma like this 214 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: as it ap applies to sharp force injuries is doing 215 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: what we refer to as tracking wounds because there's so 216 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: much study that you have to do externally. I mean, 217 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: this is a very involved autopsy. We're talking about first off, 218 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: taking photographs of the body if the body still has 219 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: clothing on and I think in her case it, and 220 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: then trying to marry up any of the little insize 221 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: if you think about taking a piece of cloth and 222 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: cutting a slit in it, trying to look you know, 223 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: because clothing is I can you know everybody understands clothing 224 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: is not static like our skin is. You're still going 225 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: to have individuals that when you look at the injuries 226 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: or the cuts and the clothing is it possible that 227 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: you can look at the clothing and marry up the 228 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: defect and the cloth with the stab wound. And that's 229 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: that's just the beginning, you know, beyond you know, we 230 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: do you know, X rays and all sorts of things. 231 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: Then you take the clothing off and you hold it up, 232 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 1: you examine it, you photograph it, and you allow it 233 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: to dry. You put it in a what's referred to 234 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: as a forensic clothes dryer, which we could get into that. 235 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: It's it's a separate, low humidity kind of thing that 236 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: we use. Then you have to go in and actually 237 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,640 Speaker 1: physically look at the injury still external, before you ever 238 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: open the body. It's a daunting task. But here's the thing. 239 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: Every time you look at one of these injuries and 240 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: you try to compare it. Once you open the body up, 241 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: you track the wound. And one of the things you're 242 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 1: doing with tracking the wound, you're looking for, well, what 243 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: underlying vessels or organs are involved. Okay, you try to 244 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 1: look at the location and then probably one of the 245 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: biggest things is you try to see if there's actually 246 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 1: hemorrhage in the wound track And Dave, I got to 247 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: tell you most of the injuries that Ellen Greenberg sustained 248 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:49,120 Speaker 1: had hemorrhage in the woond track. Okay, they were there. However, 249 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: one of the critical locations where there was no hemorrhage 250 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: in the woond track was the f four mentioned insult 251 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: to the back of her head per this consulting or 252 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,880 Speaker 1: the colleague of doctor Osborne, who was a forensic pathologist. 253 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 1: So I've always been fascinated by that and the level 254 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 1: of injuries that have been sustained. You know, how do 255 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 1: you move on from that? How do you how do 256 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: you try to square that in your mind with these 257 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,440 Speaker 1: pain centers that are firing. You know, I think that 258 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 1: you're kind of a handy man around the house. How 259 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: many times have you swung a hammer? And maybe what 260 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 1: was it? The old preacher said, I don't normally cuss, 261 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: but if there's a cuss word in me, it'll bring 262 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 1: it out. Yeah, you hit your thumb with a hammer. Well, 263 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: that's pain response, okay, And most people can identify with that, 264 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 1: tripping over piece of furniture in the middle of the night, 265 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,880 Speaker 1: you know, bruising your shin, stubbing your toe, those are 266 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: pain responses day. We're talking twenty times brother. 267 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 2: That's my problem with all of this show. You actually 268 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 2: pointed out to me how oftentimes in a suicide there 269 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 2: will be more than one mark. There will almost be 270 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 2: a practice attempt. Yes, And I was fascinated by that 271 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 2: in the science, you know, psychological scientific, knowing all the 272 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 2: different issues that go along to that. I don't want 273 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 2: to When I say fascinated, I hope nobody thinks I'm 274 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 2: being flipping because I don't want That's what we. 275 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 1: Do, and you have to be fascinated by it. You 276 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: have to be, and that's what we're here for. We're 277 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: here for the science to try to understand it. Because 278 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: I still I got to tell you, I still don't. 279 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: It's hard for me to comprehend, I think, to try 280 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:39,880 Speaker 1: to understand it. 281 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 2: But that's where with all of this show. How is 282 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 2: it possible that you could you could? These injuries are traumatic, 283 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:53,439 Speaker 2: several of them are beyond anything you know that you 284 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 2: could imagine, And to rule it a suicide, one has 285 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:01,919 Speaker 2: to believe that in the midst that all of a 286 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 2: sudden in her apartment as she's preparing dinner, she decides 287 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 2: to kill herself. And this is all the lead up 288 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:12,879 Speaker 2: time to what was taking place in the minutes before, 289 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 2: does not see there's nothing there that says something was 290 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 2: going wrong with her at that moment. You know, there's 291 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 2: none of that. 292 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 1: Now, Listen, half the world has anxiety, half the world 293 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: has depression. If you went down your street, every other 294 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:31,479 Speaker 1: house is going to have some kind of you know, 295 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 1: medication that somebody's on. Okay, that's nothing new under the sun. Okay, 296 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:43,920 Speaker 1: but did her diagnoses of these issues that she was in. 297 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 1: She's planning a wedding, to save the date card, all 298 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:52,240 Speaker 1: that stuff is going out, and do you have enough 299 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: to hang your hat on to say that. Okay, this 300 00:20:55,480 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 1: is now jumped from jumped from a time where you know, 301 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: I'm stable, I've been teaching my classes, I'm not missing work, 302 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: all that sort of thing too. Okay, Not only am 303 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: I going to end my life, I'm going to end 304 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: my life, arguably in one of the most horrific ways 305 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 1: that you can. It just it doesn't mesh. And you know, 306 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,880 Speaker 1: we're not here to do and I hate this term, 307 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,120 Speaker 1: but we're not here to do a psychological autopsy. And 308 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: that's that's for other people. If you even believe that term, 309 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: which I have trouble with many times you can go 310 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: back and retroactively look at people's psychiatric records and then 311 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 1: you know, what are people saying around them that are 312 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: in their world. But just if you're looking at this 313 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 1: from physical science standpoint, and you're a clinician and you're 314 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 1: trying to understand what happened, then I think that it's important. 315 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:57,479 Speaker 1: And Dave, there's a term, and you and I had 316 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,439 Speaker 1: mentioned this last night. We had talked about this, you know, 317 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: prior to laying this down today. There's a term that 318 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: physicians use, and it's called a differential diagnosis. And that's 319 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:18,719 Speaker 1: where you have multiple indicators of some type of indwelling 320 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 1: disease or pathology that's going on, or manifestation's physical manifestations, 321 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 1: and it could be this, or it could be that. Okay, 322 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,160 Speaker 1: you don't really know. You're trying to kind of narrow 323 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: it down. You get a bunch of people around you're 324 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: looking at lab results. They're scratching their heads and they're saying, oh, okay, 325 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,120 Speaker 1: you know, I think that this is maybe a bowel 326 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: obstruction or and I'm just throwing this out there, a 327 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 1: bowel obstruction or I don't know, they've got some other 328 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: manifestation in their digestive track. They've ultimately the diagnosis has 329 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: been made. Let's just take let's take Osborne out of 330 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: the context of law enforce, which he is not. He 331 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: is a medical examiner. Okay. Homicides are not all he 332 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: deals with, all right, matter of fact, they're the lowest 333 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 1: end of what he deals with. You deal with fewer 334 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: homicides than you do anything else. So he's always having 335 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 1: to make diagnosis. Well, his ultimate diagnosis day, based upon 336 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: the empirical scientific data, was first an undetermined and I 337 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: think initially initially a homicide undetermined and then then you 338 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: land on suicide. First off, do you know how rare 339 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:42,959 Speaker 1: it is that a forensic pathologist will change that ruling 340 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: multiple times day. We only have five choices here, We'll 341 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: go over them again, Okay. 342 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 2: Please do Because we talk about this, people get kind 343 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 2: of confused at the terminology if you're not in the field, 344 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 2: and it does when when we think about homicide suicide, 345 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 2: there are some just crossover. We we kind of messed 346 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:05,679 Speaker 2: things up. 347 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: YEA, thinking yeah, and everybody does. Could you know one 348 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: of the most cringe moments I'll ever have is when 349 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: I see a reporter come on, uh, come on the 350 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,640 Speaker 1: air and you know, they're breathlessly outside the medical examiner's 351 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 1: office getting that shot, you know, for the six o'clock news, 352 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: and they say, uh, the medical examiner has ruled the 353 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: cause of death as homicide. Right, Well, sugar, that ain't. 354 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know you say that, Joe, I've done that. 355 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 2: I have been that guy, and thankfully you corrected me. 356 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 2: I'm not kidding. I was able to go back and 357 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 2: change what I said because it was I was like, 358 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 2: I didn't know that, I'm an idiot dot com. 359 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,919 Speaker 1: It's it's not that's not a cause of death. That 360 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 1: is a manner of death. And we only have five 361 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: that we can choose from. Our doctor has used three. 362 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: You only got five. He's used three, one, two, three, 363 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: And now you know it. You begin to think about 364 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 1: a lot of the other stuff that you know that 365 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: that you consider went on with this case. I think 366 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: probably uh again, one of the most glaring things is 367 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: uh uh that you know you've got You've got arguably 368 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:34,879 Speaker 1: one of the most famous uh famous, I don't know. 369 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: She's a neural pathologist. Uh literally, one of the pioneers 370 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: as far as women go in the field of neuro 371 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: uh neuropathology. Uh, Lucy Rourke Adams, you know, claiming that 372 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:55,439 Speaker 1: Ellen's case that was consulted out to her, and Lucy 373 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 1: Rourke Adams, who is in her nineties, states that I've 374 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,439 Speaker 1: never seen this case, this was never sent to me, 375 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 1: you know. And so you combine things like that with 376 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:13,400 Speaker 1: this jumping around of this terminal you know, terminal ruling 377 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,479 Speaker 1: as far as the classification of manner of death, and 378 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 1: it causes it gives you, certainly gives you pause, but 379 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,919 Speaker 1: it also erodes any kind of trust that you might have. So, 380 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:30,679 Speaker 1: you know, when it comes down to Ellen, we have 381 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 1: finally landed in a place where maybe we're starting to 382 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: see a few rays of sunshine break on the horizon. Maybe, 383 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: just maybe there's going to be some more definitive answers 384 00:26:45,800 --> 00:27:03,440 Speaker 1: coming down the track. There's by my way of thinking, 385 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 1: at least, there is little or no joy in anything 386 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 1: involving a homicide of your child. See what would be 387 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: a better word. I don't know, maybe peace. I don't 388 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 1: know victory because I can't imagine finding victory in this validation. 389 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: Hope maybe people throw that term around a lot, but 390 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 1: hope that before you finally close your eyes breathe. Your 391 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,719 Speaker 1: last breath that you screaming from the rooftops has had 392 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 1: an impact finally on the perception of your precious child. 393 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: I don't know justice, which is always kind of a 394 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: mushy thing, you know that people say, do people ever 395 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: attain justice? I don't know, But Dave, based upon what 396 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 1: we heard in the last forty eight hours, I think 397 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: that we've got some pause to perhaps be at least 398 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: intrigued and perhaps bearing witness to some peace coming down 399 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 1: the road. 400 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 2: For I think that's important because you're talking about fourteen 401 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 2: years all right, when their daughter, when Ellen Greenberg died, 402 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 2: it was ruled a homicide because it was it appeared 403 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 2: to be anyway it appeared to be, I mean, a 404 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 2: homicide based on the injuries, the number, of the type, 405 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 2: all those things, and so they prepared, you know, for 406 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 2: the funeral and life without our daughter and let's find 407 00:28:55,160 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 2: the killer. Well, when her death was ruled it was 408 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 2: changed from homicide to suicide. They were given the warning. 409 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 2: It was just pulled the rug out from underneath, you know, 410 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 2: and let them fall. And ever since then, you know, 411 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 2: they haven't been fighting to have it changed to homicide. 412 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 2: They've been fighting just to have it ruled undetermined is 413 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 2: better than suicide. And they just want you know, you 414 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 2: and I have talked about peace and things like that 415 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 2: and justice and moving on, And in reality, you've got 416 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 2: a really big hole in your heart already. This is 417 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 2: your daughter and now, for whatever reason, you're looking at 418 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 2: something that really does seem jacked up. It seems like 419 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 2: something really wrong is happening here. And we're talking about 420 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 2: a cover up. We're talking about we're talking about the 421 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 2: basics of life in the United States of America of 422 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 2: what we expect and demand of our public servants. Look, 423 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 2: you're going to protect and serve great protect and service 424 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 2: all you got to serve the family here what happened 425 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 2: to Ellen Greenberg. And they've been trying to get this 426 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 2: looked at reopened ever since, and finally they had You know, 427 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 2: you and I have covered them many times. They have 428 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 2: filed different suits or tried to get something done. They 429 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 2: fired experts. You and Nancy did a reenactment or actually 430 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 2: had a stage thing because there were so many parts 431 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 2: of the scene of the crime that made absolutely no 432 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 2: sense based on what we were told in official statements. 433 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 2: When you give a statement to police of what you 434 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 2: saw when you got there, and what you did when 435 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 2: you got I mean, all those things, and you're going 436 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 2: the one that sticks out to me. Ellen Greenberg's body 437 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 2: is found leaning up against the cabinet, sitting but on 438 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 2: the ground, back against the cabinet. Yes, and yet she 439 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 2: has a horizontal line of blood going from her nose 440 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 2: to her ear. And in the world in which we live, 441 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 2: that is not a possibility. 442 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: No, it's not. It's an empirical impossibility that the flow 443 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: of any kind of liquid, you know, in blood obviously 444 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 1: is more viscous than water. But that is a telltale 445 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 1: sign of manipulation perhaps of the body, that the body 446 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: has been moved because of gravity, which is like the 447 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: one constant force. And I've talked about gravity in the 448 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 1: sense of in the past, post War mo lividity and 449 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: those sorts of things that I love to you know, 450 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 1: use as indicators for PMI. With this in particular, though, 451 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: we're talking about the flow of liquid, and again that's glaring, 452 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: you know, how in fact can you do this? Here's 453 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: my thing, though, Dave, you know we're talking fourteen years 454 00:31:54,360 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 1: down range now from when this happened. Correct, we do 455 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: know that the door has been opened for the family. Yes, 456 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: relative to you know, we've got in correct me if 457 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 1: I'm wrong based upon the ruling, and I'll let you 458 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: give more detail about the ruling. But just correct right now. 459 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: Just correct me if I'm wrong. Doctor Osborn has stated 460 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 1: openly now that he does not believe that this is 461 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: a suicide. 462 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 2: He says, this, Yeah, it is my professional opinion. Ellen's 463 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 2: manner of death should be designated as something other than suicide, 464 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 2: he said, and this was he did give an example 465 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,479 Speaker 2: of what helped make that determination for him all these 466 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 2: years later. He said, for example, whether Ellen's fiancee was 467 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 2: witnessed entering the department before placing the nine to one 468 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 2: one call in January twenty six, twenty eleven, whether the 469 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 2: body was forced whether the door was forced open as reported, 470 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 2: and whether Ellen's body was moved by someone else inside 471 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 2: the apartment with her at or near the time of 472 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 2: her death. That's what Osborne wrote is his reasons for saying, 473 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 2: I didn't know this. This is new information to me, 474 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 2: and when I found out now it doesn't make any sense. 475 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 2: And we all knew that. 476 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, we know that there were multiple consultations along the way, 477 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: So I can't imagine that a man of this esteem, 478 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 1: who the city of Philadelphia has put so much weight 479 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 1: behind what's the term that they'd love to use gravitas 480 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: based on his learned abilities as a forensic pathologist, that 481 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 1: he would not have had access to this information. I 482 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe he's had that moment, Tom, where that 483 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: epiphanal moment where he can sit back and say, eh, 484 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 1: you know, maybe just maybe my way of thinking about 485 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: this was all wrong. Here's here's one of the one 486 00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 1: of the things that is really troubling to me, Dave, 487 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: is the idea that her remains were documented at the scene. 488 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 1: How well were they documented? What did you miss at 489 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: that moment time? Was there anything to miss? And yeah, 490 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 1: I can assume that there was, how thorough because you know, 491 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: I it's and I'm not saying, you know, they initially 492 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: ruled this as a homicide. I think my question would 493 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 1: be is how enthusiastically was this case investigated as a 494 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: quote unquote homicide at that moment? Tom, Because there are 495 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 1: certain steps and people don't know this about death investigation. Yeah, 496 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: we're human beings and we get there's almost like this 497 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: adrenaline boost that you get when you know when you 498 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: walk into a scene you know it's a homicide, right, 499 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,359 Speaker 1: wrong or indifferent, there's something that kicks in in your 500 00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 1: brain where you're thinking, oh my god, I gotta be 501 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,280 Speaker 1: really careful here, I got to really be there, or thorough. 502 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 1: I'm just questioning right now, I'm really thinking how thorough 503 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:13,279 Speaker 1: has this been? And hopefully it has been, because you know, 504 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: you only get those few moments, even though it seems 505 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,759 Speaker 1: like we stay at crime scenes forever and ever, gave 506 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: us a very short period of time in the whole 507 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,839 Speaker 1: grand timeline. Now we're talking about fourteen years later. That 508 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,320 Speaker 1: hour or two they spent out there at that scene 509 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: working that did they do everything possible to document the 510 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,800 Speaker 1: dynamics of the scene, because this is a very dynamic, 511 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 1: dynamic event that occurred in a very small space, man, 512 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:47,720 Speaker 1: a very small space. But you know, I am holding 513 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:52,959 Speaker 1: out hope, tell me it. Just give us the quick 514 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,720 Speaker 1: and dirty here, brother, about what are they saying now 515 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 1: relative to this? 516 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 2: Here's the big part of game. This coming down because 517 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 2: a trial was getting ready to start. They were trying 518 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 2: to see the jury. Two civil suits have been filed 519 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 2: by the Greenbergs, and they're trying to see a jury 520 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 2: for the first one. Now they've got two. One was 521 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 2: at the Supreme court level. The Pennsylvania Supreme Court was 522 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 2: slated to hear one of these cases later on. Now. 523 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 2: The first suit was filed in twenty nineteen and it 524 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 2: was slated for a hearing before the Supreme Court, and 525 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 2: it sought to have the manner of Ellen Greenberg's death 526 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 2: changed from suicide back to homicide or undetermined. They had 527 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,400 Speaker 2: chased that through the court system all the way up 528 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 2: to the state Supreme Court. The second suit, which was 529 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 2: filed in twenty twenty two, slated that that was for 530 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:57,839 Speaker 2: the trial this week. That was the actual Hey man, 531 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 2: we're seeding the jury right now. And it allows to 532 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 2: in a civil case, yes, all civil and it alleges 533 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 2: that the investigation into Ellen Greenberg's death was quote embarrassingly 534 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 2: botched and resulted in a cover up by Philadelphia authorities. Now, 535 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,920 Speaker 2: in this particular case, it saw monetary damages for intentional 536 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:23,359 Speaker 2: infliction of emotional distress against several city employees who were 537 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 2: involved in the investigation. This is what was going on 538 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 2: when this agreement was struck between the city and the 539 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 2: Greenberg's And it does impact the other case as well, 540 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:39,880 Speaker 2: because this stops everything. Okay, Now that we're getting this 541 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 2: from Osborne, they've been asking Osborne forever change this. You know, 542 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,320 Speaker 2: you can change it. Done determined, you don't have to 543 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,359 Speaker 2: call it Hume, We don't. That's not where eff. We're 544 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,799 Speaker 2: just after this saying this, This is not a suicide. 545 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 2: That's all we're saying. 546 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:53,960 Speaker 1: I got to tell you one thing about this that 547 00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,799 Speaker 1: had come out earlier, and I still remember this where 548 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,759 Speaker 1: they were saying that we have no authority over the 549 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 1: metal examiner. Then they are an independent entity within the 550 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:11,000 Speaker 1: governmental structure. They make these determinations. You cannot force them 551 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: to do anything, okay, because they're independent of the police. 552 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 1: And here's the thing about it, Dave, you really wonder 553 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 1: what the driver is behind this, because when you have 554 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 1: a medical legal authority that changes an opinion multiple times, 555 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: then you begin to think about undue influence. Is there 556 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 1: somebody else within this construct, the investigative construct, that is 557 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 1: pressing the buttons here? And I think that that's something 558 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:45,320 Speaker 1: that is going to be explored. I have to say, 559 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,240 Speaker 1: now you flip the switch, okay, because if in fact 560 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 1: they rule this as a homicide, they reclassify this as 561 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 1: far as a manner of death. If they flip that switch. 562 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,239 Speaker 1: When you flip that switch and you use the H word, 563 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 1: you set all kinds of things in motion because you 564 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:08,920 Speaker 1: have to look at it. Okay, well, is this a 565 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,400 Speaker 1: cold case. No, it's not a cold case. It is not. 566 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,400 Speaker 2: It's only been active from the parents standpoint though. 567 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 1: Right it has, But it's kind of gone into stasis, 568 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:25,239 Speaker 1: if you will, this kind of paused moment with with 569 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: the with the authorities. Now we're going to see if 570 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 1: they rule this as a homicide, if they change that 571 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:39,359 Speaker 1: ruling to homicide, We're going to see how bad they 572 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: want it. And I ain't talking about the green Bergs. 573 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 1: I'm talking about the authorities because as horrible as this 574 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: was for Ellen and is what a continual assault its 575 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 1: men upon the green Bergs, it does give one pause. 576 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:08,879 Speaker 1: And here it is for every Ellen Greenberg case in Philadelphia, 577 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:13,400 Speaker 1: how many other cases are there out there where you 578 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,959 Speaker 1: haven't had the same time poured into it, the same resources. 579 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 1: That mind, you almost broke the Greenberg family financially, and 580 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:26,320 Speaker 1: on one level it did the emotional the emotional stamina. 581 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 1: Maybe some people don't possess that. How many other cases 582 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,440 Speaker 1: are there and this is a big step, I think, 583 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:39,920 Speaker 1: and trying to reassure the public that perhaps those in 584 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 1: charge are now taking notice and they're going to have 585 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,120 Speaker 1: to rebuild trust in this one area that a lot 586 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,880 Speaker 1: of people don't normally think about, but I think that 587 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,520 Speaker 1: I could say it's one of the most critical areas 588 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:57,960 Speaker 1: because we're not talking about a park being made for 589 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:00,320 Speaker 1: kids to play, and we're not talking about after school, 590 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 1: we're not talking about road repairs. We're talking about the 591 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:08,400 Speaker 1: most precious thing in the world, a life that was 592 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:15,200 Speaker 1: ended far too soon. I'm Josephcott Morgan, and this is 593 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:16,120 Speaker 1: Bodybacks