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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for session four seventy three of the

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. Today, I'm sitting down with

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Speaker 1: Honefa NaIO Washington, leaf facilitator at Beckley Retreats, and our

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Speaker 1: very own director of Podcasts and Digital Content, Elise Ellis,

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Speaker 1: for a conversation about psychedelic assistic care and what it

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Speaker 1: can look like when healing is rooted in community. We'll

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Speaker 1: get right into our conversation afterward. From our sponsors, today,

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Speaker 1: we're giving you proper boots on the ground journalism. We

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Speaker 1: send our very own Elise Ellis, who if you're a

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Speaker 1: listener to the podcast you've heard before to Beckley's Guided

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Speaker 1: Sanctuary for Black Women's Psilocybin retreat in Jamaica, where participants

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Speaker 1: engaged in a carefully guided psilocybin experience supported by preparation,

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Speaker 1: therapeutic support, and integration. Together, we're unpacking what psychedelic assistant

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Speaker 1: therapy actually is, how it differs from recreational use, why

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Speaker 1: creating spaces specifically for black women matters, and what people

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Speaker 1: should know if they're curious about exploring this kind of

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Speaker 1: healing for themselves. Here's our conversation. Well, I am very

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Speaker 1: excited to jump into this conversation today, so welcome Hanifa

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Speaker 1: and Elise, who is returning.

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Speaker 2: Of course, thank you so much. I'm so happy to

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Speaker 2: be here. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: I'm really excited to talk with you both. So Elise

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Speaker 1: has just returned from the retreat and Honifo is one

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Speaker 1: of the facilitators of the retreat, and I really want

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Speaker 1: to hear all about it. I know that the audience

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Speaker 1: will be very excited about this conversation. Before we get started, though, Hanifa,

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Speaker 1: how did you first get acquainted with Beckley and what

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Speaker 1: made you feel like saying yes to building this program?

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Speaker 2: With them. I have been involved in the space of

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Speaker 2: doing healing work with the assistance of psychedelic medicines for

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Speaker 2: about fifteen years, and recently someone said a really cool

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Speaker 2: term but I've adopted, which is I've worked for most

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Speaker 2: of that time in preregulated spaces, so what might called

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Speaker 2: the underground space or in ceremonial spaces often abroad because

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Speaker 2: of the legal status of the medicines in the United States,

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Speaker 2: and so for me for a very long time, my

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Speaker 2: practice is based in community medicine, particularly working with black

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Speaker 2: women and doing work around mindfulness as well as work

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Speaker 2: with medicines, but in community because you have these experiences,

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Speaker 2: but afterwards is what's really important, how you continue, how

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Speaker 2: you grow. And so my experiences were influenced by my

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Speaker 2: own practice and being introduced to this type of healing

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Speaker 2: about twenty years ago, and really saw the impact of

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Speaker 2: practicing with reverence and safety coupled with therapeutic practice for

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Speaker 2: my own PTSD for my own stress levels, and immediately

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Speaker 2: wanted to make sure that as many Black women as

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Speaker 2: possible act to this, and so I connected with the

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Speaker 2: former coo U Beckley Retreats. We actually met each other

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Speaker 2: like seven years ago doing some breath work training and

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Speaker 2: stayed in close contact. And we had been dreaming about this,

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Speaker 2: like what would it mean to kind of hold the

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Speaker 2: space within a retreat setting with a program like Beckley

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Speaker 2: that has such an amazing reputation and program. And about

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Speaker 2: three and a half years ago she approached me with

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Speaker 2: some seriousness and said, what would it mean to help

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Speaker 2: build an affinity space for black women here Beckley? And

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Speaker 2: I was like, well, I want to come and see

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Speaker 2: the program first, because I don't know, you know, what

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Speaker 2: the bones are, so I want to see what the ethos,

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Speaker 2: what the feeling is. And so I came out and

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Speaker 2: did like a kind of practicum where I kind of

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Speaker 2: shadowed the team and sat with one of their signature

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Speaker 2: programs and really felt so much power from not only

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Speaker 2: the shape of the program, but from the space in

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Speaker 2: low Land and being in Jamaica. And yeah, I said, Okay,

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Speaker 2: let's make this happen. And here are the things that

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Speaker 2: I want to shift to add end to the program

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Speaker 2: that really can allow for our safety. And yeah, we

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Speaker 2: are in our third year of running the program. The

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Speaker 2: first year was specifically for black women. The second year

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Speaker 2: kind of branched out and tried a model that included

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Speaker 2: women of color, and then we returned to holding the

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Speaker 2: space for Black women in a Black women's sanctuary this year,

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Speaker 2: and we'll continue in that way out as well.

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Speaker 1: So what kinds of things came to mind for you,

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Speaker 1: Honefa that you knew needed to be included for this

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Speaker 1: space to be specifically for black women.

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Speaker 2: Yes, there needed to be a sensitive practice of rest

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Speaker 2: in this space, and so really incorporating opportunities for rest,

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Speaker 2: for grounding, for not having every single moment of a

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Speaker 2: retreat packed with activity, so ensuring that there was time

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Speaker 2: for people to unwind and to also be reminded that

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Speaker 2: they all parts of that are welcome and that there's

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Speaker 2: nobody that they need to fix or take care of

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Speaker 2: beside themselves. For that really to be reiterated throughout the

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Speaker 2: space and our time together in preparation as well as

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Speaker 2: it has to retreade itself. Also a lot of time

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Speaker 2: baked in for expressive and somatic movement for releasing, so

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Speaker 2: ensuring that there was plenty of time not just for yoga,

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Speaker 2: which is great, but also for dance and for shaking

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Speaker 2: and for somatic release, because this is a really important

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Speaker 2: practice for us so thore some key things that I

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Speaker 2: really wanted to bring to the space, and also an acknowledgement,

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Speaker 2: a deep, serious and heartfelt acknowledgement of the land in

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Speaker 2: Jamaica and in many of the places in the world

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Speaker 2: are not untouched right by colonialism and the impact of

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Speaker 2: the transmonic slave trade. And the land at Beckley where

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Speaker 2: they do their retreats, is on a wonderful Facebook Good

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Speaker 2: Hope up in the mountain, and it was one of

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Speaker 2: the largest former plantations in Jamaica. So being really clear

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Speaker 2: about that as people are preparing to come to the space,

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Speaker 2: and then in the space, acknowledging it and giving space

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Speaker 2: for whatever might arise around that. It's a really it's

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Speaker 2: undercurrent right everywhere we go, and so really bringing that

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Speaker 2: to the forefront beforehand, giving people an opportunity to sit

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Speaker 2: with that energy was really important to me, And I

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Speaker 2: would say wasn't as lifted in the line experience when

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Speaker 2: I came to shadow the program initially, So.

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Speaker 1: At least when we got the email about and imitations

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Speaker 1: to Beckley, you were all over and very excited to attend.

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Speaker 1: So talk to us about the version of you that

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Speaker 1: was very excited about attending and what was going on

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Speaker 1: maybe in your life that you thought this would be

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Speaker 1: a good fit for you.

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Speaker 3: Well, doctor Joey, you know me.

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Speaker 4: This is something we had talked about four years, I think,

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Speaker 4: ever since I got comfortable enough to share my crazy

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Speaker 4: zany ideas that wouldn't get me fired. I was like,

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Speaker 4: I want to do ayahuashka or shrooms on my beath

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Speaker 4: of the podcast, and so we had already talked about

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Speaker 4: this in a way, I think just having open conversations

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Speaker 4: about our wildest podcast ideas, we brought this into our

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Speaker 4: either like we definitely manifested it. But thank you to

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Speaker 4: the team at Beckley for reaching out to us. I

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Speaker 4: have always been appreciative interested in alternative medicine, So it's

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Speaker 4: not something I saw out of like the realm of

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Speaker 4: possibility for me, you know, through the podcast and just

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Speaker 4: through my own reading, I knew that retreats like this.

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Speaker 4: We're out here and I'm twenty eight on the precipics

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Speaker 4: of this big thirtieth year, which doesn't really scare me.

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Speaker 4: But do people do talk about it as a transformative time.

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Speaker 4: People talk about like you're sad in return, which is

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Speaker 4: something that I'm coming up upon as a very transformed time.

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Speaker 4: So I do think in my own personal life outside

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Speaker 4: of the professional it's felt like a good time to

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Speaker 4: meet myself in this way. I've been doing or in

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Speaker 4: therapy on and off of my entire life, I think

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Speaker 4: maybe since I was eleven or.

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Speaker 3: Twelve, on or off.

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Speaker 4: So I've always been really comfortable with talking to someone

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Speaker 4: else or using kind of this outside mechanism as a

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Speaker 4: way to see myself and explore myself. And it also

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Speaker 4: came on the week of my birthday, which I thought

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Speaker 4: was really cool. You know, it was I don't even

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Speaker 4: want to say, like the perfect form, like the perfect salad,

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Speaker 4: the perfect recipe, where it meets I think my professional

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Speaker 4: goals and that I've been interested in. I am someone who,

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Speaker 4: what Hanifa said, who connects with the land. I was

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Speaker 4: raised plant based, so alternative medicine, both from like the

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Speaker 4: food we eat all the way to something like shrooms

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Speaker 4: is something that I personally champion. But I'm in a

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Speaker 4: transformative spot of my life, moving into I think deeper maturity,

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Speaker 4: and so it felt like a fit. Why not have

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Speaker 4: this experience where the goal is to learn more about myself,

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Speaker 4: to connect with myself more, But then also something I

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Speaker 4: said for twenty twenty six. I want to share more

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Speaker 4: of what I've learned working on the show, and so

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Speaker 4: I also think this was the perfect conduit for that.

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Speaker 4: As someone who's worked behind the scenes from the podcast.

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Speaker 4: Now I get to be almost like a hast subject

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Speaker 4: but then be in conversation with you guys to share

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Speaker 4: my experience. So I'm really happy it came together in

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Speaker 4: this way.

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Speaker 3: I don't think it could have been like a more

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Speaker 3: perfect time in you.

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Speaker 1: No, it definitely couldn't have, especially coinciding with your birthday.

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Speaker 1: I think it was something particularly kismet about that for sure.

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Speaker 1: So you know, as we dive deeper into this conversation,

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Speaker 1: we're going to be sharing more about your very personal

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Speaker 1: experiences and like real world experiences around psychedelic assistic here

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Speaker 1: specifically around psilocybin. And I'm curious about what both of

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Speaker 1: you maybe want listeners to know or be thinking about.

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Speaker 3: Is there may be.

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Speaker 1: Some concerns or fears or curiosities. What are you hoping

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Speaker 1: that people will kind of be open to you as

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Speaker 1: we can see you with this conversation. We'll start with you, Henifa, one.

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Speaker 2: Of the biggest hope in all of this work and

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Speaker 2: in this conversation as well, is for people to be curious,

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Speaker 2: to remain curious about psychedelic assisted care and psychedelic medicines,

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Speaker 2: to know that there are many pathways in to being

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Speaker 2: in relationship with this medicine. Being on retreat is one

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Speaker 2: of them. In ceremonies one and now in the States,

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Speaker 2: we are really seeing more and more infrastructure coming into

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Speaker 2: place where we're looking at medical psilocybin access, so psilocybin

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Speaker 2: assistant therapy for mental health care and treatments. So stay curious.

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Speaker 2: Know that these medicines have been around for a long

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Speaker 2: long time, and I think that there is much promise

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Speaker 2: for their impact on our well being, in our resilience.

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Speaker 2: And also it's not for everyone, and that's okay, and

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Speaker 2: I think knowing that and thinking about this is something

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Speaker 2: that could be for you and keeping an open mind.

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Speaker 4: I think coming from a space of non judgment is

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Speaker 4: really important. Something we talked about on the retreat that

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Speaker 4: this medicine has been around for such a.

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Speaker 3: Long time, and I think there are a lot.

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Speaker 4: Of stereotypes or assumptions about like the type of person

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Speaker 4: that would do psilocybin or a lot of associations with

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Speaker 4: seventies psychedelic and like being a hippiean all of those days.

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Speaker 4: And so I think once you break down your walls

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Speaker 4: and break down your stereotypes and come into whether it's

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Speaker 4: like your own research, a retreat, or just clicking on

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Speaker 4: the website, are going to like an informational session something

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Speaker 4: like that. From a space of non judgment, I think

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Speaker 4: you'll be able to receive whether it's for you or not.

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Speaker 3: And I think that was really important for me.

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Speaker 4: That was really important, even when I was telling people

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Speaker 4: that I trusted that I was going to have this experience.

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Speaker 4: Don't think of it as I don't know, dazed and

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Speaker 4: confused or whatever mouy you've seen. Just think of it

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Speaker 4: as the information you're receiving, what it's been historically, the

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Speaker 4: research on it. And so I think a lot of

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Speaker 4: like the pop culture associations with psychedelics can seep into

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Speaker 4: people's mind, and I think it's better to come from

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Speaker 4: a space of non judgment.

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Speaker 1: So, honey, but when we're talking about psychedelic assistic care,

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Speaker 1: what specifically are we talking about and how is psilocybin

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Speaker 1: different from other substances that might fall into the same category.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you know, we're talking about psychedelic assisted care. We're

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Speaker 2: talking about working with different types of medicines, psychedelic medicines,

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Speaker 2: and there's a wide variety of psychedelic medicines, right. So

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Speaker 2: there's psilocybin, there's Alaska, there's NDEMS, there's LST, there's five

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Speaker 2: no DMT, DMT, there's emoga, and there's a very long list.

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Speaker 2: And I'd have to say that when I'm talking about psilocybin,

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Speaker 2: I'm also talking about psilocybin in its natural form, right

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Speaker 2: because there are synthetic versions that are being made that

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Speaker 2: are actually for application in the FDA process right now.

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Speaker 2: But we're talking about whole medicine. And what's important about

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Speaker 2: psilocybin in its whole form is that, yes, the psilicetem

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Speaker 2: will break down into a compound called solocin, but there

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Speaker 2: are all these other active components and compounds in the mushroom,

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Speaker 2: in the tissues, in the fiber that really have interaction

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Speaker 2: with our receptors as well. So the whole mushroom, the

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Speaker 2: whole gldicine experience is natural medicine, I think personally, is

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Speaker 2: what I prefer. I think that research is showing things

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Speaker 2: that are synthetic like DA or methylone which is like

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Speaker 2: NDMA light or LSD do have really positive effects, particularly

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Speaker 2: when the couples in the therapeutic experience. And I think

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Speaker 2: psylocybin when you receive it in a group setting and

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Speaker 2: also in a setting that it's based in nature, really

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Speaker 2: takes on a different pathway into the mind, the body,

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Speaker 2: and the spirit. I think that it is because it

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Speaker 2: is natural. We literally have the receptors in our bodies

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Speaker 2: that attached to these compounds. And I think that there's

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Speaker 2: a process by which particulated group experience there can be

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Speaker 2: a transference that happens and an energetic movement throughout the

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Speaker 2: entire group that will impact the individual as well as

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Speaker 2: the group. I also feel that the cycle right of

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Speaker 2: a psilocybin experience is about six hours or so, and

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Speaker 2: so it's something that you can also easily do in

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Speaker 2: a day and then have really good recover time. And

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Speaker 2: this is really quickly like the anatomy of psycoc asistic

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Speaker 2: care or going through a journey. So with the Beckley program,

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Speaker 2: there's several weeks of preparation virtually before we come to Jamaica,

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Speaker 2: like go to the retreat, so we're meeting each other,

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Speaker 2: we're talking about our intentions, we're explaining what the process

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Speaker 2: is going to be. There's a beautiful app called the

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Speaker 2: Circle app that has all these wonderful exercises to help

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Speaker 2: people prepare, so that preparation time is super important. So

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Speaker 2: preparation is kind of the first part of the process,

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Speaker 2: and then you move into the retreat space right, which

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Speaker 2: is a week long experience in Jamaica, and that is

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Speaker 2: where you're coming. You're being with the group and you're

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Speaker 2: moving through an experience, so there's prip time. There. There

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Speaker 2: are two medicine sessions throughout the week that are separated

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Speaker 2: by integration days, and so I like to call them

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Speaker 2: integration and embodiment. So that's time for you to rest

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Speaker 2: and also to be in in a therapeutic container and

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Speaker 2: a container of care to help you unpack what has happened,

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Speaker 2: what to process, what you're feeling, to be in connection

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Speaker 2: with the group, and also to rest. And then at

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Speaker 2: the end of the week, we have sort of kind

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Speaker 2: of closing ceremony and we do this fire ceremony which

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Speaker 2: is really sweet, and then people return back into their

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Speaker 2: lives and then we continue with another four weeks of

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Speaker 2: virtual integration and embodiment support. So we're meeting once a

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Speaker 2: week with the group, with the facilitators, asking questions, listening

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Speaker 2: to each other, what are you noticing, and really providing

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Speaker 2: that landing place which is super important. So anatomy of

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Speaker 2: sort of psychedelic cares preparation, your medicine sessions, and then integration.

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Speaker 1: And who all is present honey, for the size the participants,

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Speaker 1: who all is present for the ceremonies and throughout that week.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so throughout the week there is a care team,

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Speaker 2: so there's too leads, and so myself and doctor dghil

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Speaker 2: Spence lead these retreats, and then they're an additional four facilitators,

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Speaker 2: and then there's a nurse that's also present, and then

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Speaker 2: you have like the faculty and staff of the retreat

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Speaker 2: center itself. So I have good hope, and there's just

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Speaker 2: a whole crew of folks who are hospitality, having the

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Speaker 2: food and just being really amazing hosts. And we also

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Speaker 2: have a dedicated musician who's there with us throughout on

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Speaker 2: the ceremony dates as well, So there's quite a crew

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Speaker 2: holding that container. Yeah m hm.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I was a particularly struggle by you'se

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Speaker 1: talking about the power of something like this happening in

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Speaker 1: a group, because many people who listen to the podcast

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Speaker 1: know I'm a fanatic about group work. I think it

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Speaker 1: is incredibly powerful, And so can you talk about why

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Speaker 1: participating in something like a retreat like this is very

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Speaker 1: different than maybe like doing mushrooms with your friends.

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Speaker 2: Sure about people doing mushrooms, however they want to do

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Speaker 2: ut rooms, So do beshrooms with your friend? No shade, great, wonderful.

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Speaker 2: And when you're coming to a program like Beckley where

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Speaker 2: this is about psycholic assisted care, so you're really allowing

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Speaker 2: yourself to be cared for and moving into a container

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Speaker 2: where you are being held in a process. I think

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Speaker 2: that when you do a group experience like this, there's

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Speaker 2: an allowance, there's a safety, and there is a knowing

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Speaker 2: right that there are people who have had their own

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Speaker 2: experiences that have facilitated and healthy basis for many of

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Speaker 2: us many years at this point, So there's an ease

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Speaker 2: that comes with it that I hear a lot from participants,

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Speaker 2: so particularly from the Black Women's Retreat, saying I was

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Speaker 2: able to allow myself to unzip, to let the guard down,

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Speaker 2: and to just be open to what was going to happen,

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Speaker 2: because and other experiences, whether they were doing it by

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Speaker 2: themselves or in a more social setting or in other

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Speaker 2: retreat spaces that were not for black women, there's a distrust,

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Speaker 2: there's a guard that they feel like they need to hold,

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Speaker 2: a shield that needs to go up. And so I

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Speaker 2: think that the group experience it particularly because you're moving

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Speaker 2: from a virtual preparation session to this in person intensive

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Speaker 2: retreat space, and then you move into integration again. And

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Speaker 2: then we have like an open WhatsApp channel that's just

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Speaker 2: for each cohort so they can stay in communication. You

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Speaker 2: begin to see your story in each other. You begin

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Speaker 2: to see, oh, this is something that I share with

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Speaker 2: these people who are around me, who look like me,

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Speaker 2: who move in the same way that I do, who

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Speaker 2: struggle with the same things that I struggle with, who

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Speaker 2: delight in the same way that I can delight. It

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Speaker 2: just gets safer and safer. And so you're willing to

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Speaker 2: relax and to be open is amplified, and black women

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Speaker 2: are hyper vigilant, and so having the space where you

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Speaker 2: can allow yourself to trust and relax is a massive,

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Speaker 2: unusual container that I have found in particular way you're

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Speaker 2: talking about working with psychedelics, and you have mixed media.

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Speaker 2: When it comes to the group shows, some people are

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Speaker 2: very experienced, some people is their very first time, and

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Speaker 2: so there's all these different levels. You know, I would

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Speaker 2: love to hear you have to say least in terms

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Speaker 2: of just like when you're in this affinity space, there's

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Speaker 2: a trust that is unmatched and it just is not

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Speaker 2: something that happens so that you can find regularly or

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Speaker 2: with any type of ease in the psychedelic space. So

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Speaker 2: it's as much as we're holding that container, all the

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Speaker 2: women who show up were also bringing the safety and

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Speaker 2: ease in community right into that space, making it possible.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I completely agree.

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Speaker 4: I think we say representation matters, and it can sound

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Speaker 4: like this, very like loose platitude, but I think I

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Speaker 4: saw it in real time in the space.

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Speaker 3: I always used to say, like, oh my, I have

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Speaker 3: no issue crying. I cry all the time, But.

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Speaker 4: I realized, like I cry and cry it and maybe

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Speaker 4: a lot of people do. But being in group, whether

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Speaker 4: it was during the ceremony or when we were in

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Speaker 4: kind of the integration sessions, I really did feel like

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Speaker 4: safe enough to just cry in front of people. I

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Speaker 4: felt safe because I saw other people crying that looked

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Speaker 4: like me.

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Speaker 3: And like I said about.

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Speaker 4: Just coming into the research of the space or your

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Speaker 4: interest non judgment, it truly did feel like a space

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Speaker 4: of non judgment. There wasn't a right or wrong emotion.

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Speaker 4: And then I think being one of the youngest or

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Speaker 4: the youngest participant, there was also this for me like

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Speaker 4: an older sister element and just knowing that experiences I

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Speaker 4: have had or I am having other people have been

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Speaker 4: through before until also feeling held in that way was

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Speaker 4: really important to me. But I think it was one

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Speaker 4: of the kind of real life examples of representation matters

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Speaker 4: even and I think we may get into this a

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Speaker 4: little later, but you know, down to when you're on

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Speaker 4: the medicine in the ceremony, like having to use the

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Speaker 4: bathroom or like need water, and you can have all

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Speaker 4: these anxieties about asking for things and like being cared for,

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Speaker 4: and then you see someone else like get water, goes.

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Speaker 3: To the bathroom, like, yeah, I can do.

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Speaker 4: That too, Like it is okay to ask things of

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Speaker 4: people and ask people to hold your hand and support you.

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Speaker 4: And it was beautiful to see women that look just

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Speaker 4: like me do that, but also have the women around me,

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Speaker 4: the facilitators and need fund everyone else there also care

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Speaker 4: for me in that way, and so I think.

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Speaker 3: A lot of it modeled the.

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Speaker 4: Ability to like ask for things, to express emotions, to be.

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Speaker 3: Proactive, and like your own care.

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Speaker 4: To see that modeled in the space with other black

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Speaker 4: women was really important.

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Speaker 1: So at last, I'm curious if you were surprised or

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Speaker 1: maybe you expected, like we already heard her Nita talk

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Speaker 1: about like the prep work that was involved in kind

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Speaker 1: of going before and then the sessions afterwards. So were

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Speaker 1: you surprised by that? And can you talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit about like what kinds of things were you asked

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Speaker 1: to do leading into the retreat.

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Speaker 3: So I think the first step was just a general.

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Speaker 4: Screening on who is at last, what is my support

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Speaker 4: system and what is my I think relationship to kind

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Speaker 4: of self inquiry therapy or my own mental health, which

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Speaker 4: I thought was great, and so you know, I talked

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Speaker 4: a lot.

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Speaker 3: About my own therapy journey. I talked a lot about my.

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Speaker 4: Intentions behind wanting to come through the retreat outside of

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Speaker 4: like the work of it all, and something that came

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Speaker 4: up for me was wanting to access with my emotions

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Speaker 4: outside of grief. I think when I'm thinking about my

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Speaker 4: emotions or being reflective outside of like a day to

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Speaker 4: day journaling practice, it really is like this hurt me.

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Speaker 4: I'm reflecting on, like losing my dad, those type of things,

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Speaker 4: And so it was good to kind of unpack that

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Speaker 4: with the woman who did the screening and then one

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Speaker 4: of the other facilitators in a later call like, Okay,

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Speaker 4: this is what seems to be coming up for you

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Speaker 4: in the experience. Just as I talked about my relationship

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Speaker 4: to my own, like I said, self inquiry, then there

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Speaker 4: were disheard and fast questions about what medicines are you on?

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Speaker 4: And I take I think it's like spiral lactane or

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Speaker 4: however it's pronounced for my acne, which can like dehydrate

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Speaker 4: you a little bit. So they're like, maybe don't take

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Speaker 4: that while you're in the Jamaican countryside in the heat

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Speaker 4: during the summer. And so that level of detail I

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Speaker 4: really did appreciate. But also when you come back from

434
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 4: experience that you don't know what it's going to be

435
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 4: like for anyone who was your support system, I thought

436
00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 4: that was a really great question that I was asked.

437
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 4: And although like we have the integration sessions for I

438
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 4: think the next four weeks now we've had two, it

439
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 4: could be really challenging. Like my experience, I don't think

440
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 4: it was like some big emotional shock that I didn't expect,

441
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 4: but that's what it could be. And so who was

442
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 4: going to hold you during that? I think it was

443
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 4: a really important question during the integration sessions, both virtually

444
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 4: and then the ones we had or like it was

445
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 4: virtual workbook almost and then the ones we had on Zoom.

446
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 3: I really liked a lot of the journaling.

447
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 4: Prompts that we were able to do. I think that

448
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 4: actually stretched my journaling practice, just having different questions I

449
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 4: could ask myself. But I think it got me way

450
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 4: before the retreat, so we did them. I think maybe

451
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 4: started like almost a month out or two weeks out

452
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 4: thinking about, well, what do I want to explore about myself?

453
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 4: What stories have I been telling myself? And what do

454
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 4: I want to change about that? Or what am I

455
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 4: curious about? And then I am a big proponent of meditation,

456
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 4: So there were meditations that we did on Zoom, and

457
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,399
Speaker 4: I liked having the space to sit for I think

458
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,120
Speaker 4: the longest one we did was like twenty five minutes,

459
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 4: but also do it in a space where I was

460
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 4: going to eventually meet these people. And so even though

461
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,199
Speaker 4: people went off camera to really be seen in that

462
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 4: way and just.

463
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 3: Set that intention ahead of time, I think it was great.

464
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 4: And then the day before we did the ceremony, we

465
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,360
Speaker 4: did a lot of the similar things again, so you're

466
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 4: already in this headspace of self reflection of being within

467
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 4: your body. And then there were just general overviews on

468
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 4: what is psilocybin, what is it used for?

469
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 3: Like how is the retreat going to play out?

470
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,360
Speaker 4: And I think for me as the producer Queen producer,

471
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 4: like I love to be prepared, it did put my

472
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 4: mind at ease.

473
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 3: I remember being in the sessions. They're like, well, do

474
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:54,199
Speaker 3: you have any questions?

475
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 4: And I was like my questions were more like, so,

476
00:27:59,080 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 4: am I going to be out of bos?

477
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 3: Am I going to like p on myself? Am I

478
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 3: going to like have like a tantrum? How's it going

479
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:05,679
Speaker 3: to be set up?

480
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 4: And I think part of me just having kind of

481
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 4: this other information where Beckley was really prepared.

482
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,880
Speaker 3: It kind of I came into it with no expectations.

483
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 4: Some of my questions were really like digging into the

484
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 4: minute of like how are other people's experiences? But I

485
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 4: think through the integration and that's not the point. Focus

486
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,880
Speaker 4: on yourself, focus on what you want to get out

487
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 4: of it. And so I really did appreciate how just

488
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 4: from the questions about my medication, my support system to

489
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 4: what intentions do I want to set what's coming up

490
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 4: for me and really did put me at ease. So

491
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 4: I didn't have this anxiety about what was.

492
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 3: Going to happen.

493
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 4: But Kenifa sent more curiosity into the things I'm intending

494
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 4: to explore.

495
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 1: So, Honifa, I think a lot of people will be

496
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 1: wondering who is this for, right, Like are their particular

497
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: intentions that you should be exploring to figure out whether

498
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: this is a good fit for you? And even outside

499
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 1: of the retreat experience, right, if I'm just looking forward

500
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: to psychedelic assistic care outside of a retreat space, like,

501
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 1: how do I know whether this is something that might

502
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 1: be helpful for me?

503
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 2: I think it's important to preface like, just like with anything,

504
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 2: psychedelic assistant care and therapy are for everyone, and so

505
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 2: I think that being able to find a really good

506
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 2: facilitator and practitioner to help you navigate those questions and

507
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 2: the sort of suitability for where you're at in your

508
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 2: life in this moment, and if psychedelics, whether that psilocybin

509
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 2: or another might be a good thing for you to consider.

510
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 2: I think when we're feeling a lot of like internal disruption,

511
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 2: what I would say called disease or enter the weather

512
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 2: is really turbulent. When we're thinking about conditions like anxiety,

513
00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 2: depression that doesn't seem to lift or go away, when

514
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 2: we're filling sort of a consistent disconnection to our bodies.

515
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 2: These are some conditions and some aspects of being that

516
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 2: I think psilocybin in particular could be really useful to

517
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 2: support reconnecting and alleviating the disease and moving more into ease.

518
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 2: I think that it's also a wonderful practice when you're

519
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 2: maybe in a creative slump and looking for inspiration or

520
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 2: to understand what might be blocking. I cannot stress enough

521
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 2: how important it is to have that support, whether you're

522
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 2: doing it as an individual or with a group, having

523
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 2: someone holding that container with you really helps to amplify

524
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 2: the potential impact of the session and also know that

525
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 2: that person or that team is holding you as you

526
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 2: move into your integration process, because that's where so much

527
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 2: actually shifts, because when you're in the medicine, they're in

528
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 2: the ceremony session, or everything is really heightened. I like

529
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 2: to think of it as like this big eruption, Like

530
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 2: we're little volcanoes, and then we erupt and at the

531
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 2: top gets blown off and all of this stuff comes

532
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 2: out right, and then the lava hits the land and

533
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 2: it clears new pathways, and then over time, as you

534
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 2: move away from the eruption, the lava begins to cool.

535
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 2: There's literally new edges and growth edges. Your frontier has expanded,

536
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 2: but also a lot of things have been cleared away.

537
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 2: And so having someone to support you as you navigate

538
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 2: that transformation that for some people feels very subtle and

539
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 2: for some people feels really extreme. And as you move

540
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 2: through integration, it goes up and down in terms of

541
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 2: how you're relating to what has shifted within you, and

542
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 2: how you're responding to things and what you are more

543
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 2: attracting or wanting to do what you're kind of moving

544
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 2: away from. So having that a facilitator and a practitioner,

545
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 2: I would just one hundred percent jump up and down

546
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,959
Speaker 2: and say, well, if you're going to explore. You have

547
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 2: support in that way because that person can also reflect

548
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 2: back to you things that you might not remember, or

549
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 2: might not think about, or might not see. So having

550
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 2: a good facilitator that can hold the space with you,

551
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 2: reflect back to you, keep you safe, and support your

552
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 2: integration really makes a difference if you're going to be

553
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 2: sitting with this medicine, and some people will sit with

554
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 2: the medicine then have a really deep time and have

555
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 2: no need to sit with it again.

556
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 5: And some people will be like anythink I want to

557
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 5: do this every couple of years. Some people might come

558
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 5: back to it in ten years. So everyone's different, And

559
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 5: so I think there's also different ways of interacting, particularly

560
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 5: a psilocybin. You know, there's microdosing. What we experience with

561
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 5: Beckley is a sort of larger dose, so we're working

562
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 5: with three grams and up normally in between the two

563
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 5: sessions when we give a little bit more because of

564
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 5: tolerance for the second session. But microdosing is a powerful practice.

565
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 2: It can have really big benefits without having these like

566
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 2: super wide, big open experiences that the larger doses can

567
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 2: get you. But over time, microdosing can be really effective

568
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 2: for your nervous system. So it's different for everyone, and

569
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 2: I'd say explore safely.

570
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I do understand that so much of it

571
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: is an individual kind of thing. But are there some

572
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: maybe medications or particular maybe mental health concerns that you

573
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: feel like, Okay, this might not actually be a good

574
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: fit for somebody.

575
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 2: Sure time, Yes, there's definitely medicines that are contra indicative

576
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 2: as well as conditions. So the big thing now is SSRIs, right,

577
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,719
Speaker 2: and so there's new research coming out that says that

578
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 2: they're not contra indicative, but we have been drained to

579
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 2: say that they are contra indicative. And so what does

580
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:09,240
Speaker 2: it mean to wean off of or reduce the amount

581
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:14,280
Speaker 2: of SSRs are taking before you go into working with psilocybin. Again,

582
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 2: you have to work with your medical professional to support

583
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 2: your that process. But we at Beckley, you know, have

584
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 2: worked with people and suggested that they wean or reduce

585
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 2: and then go back up as they come out of

586
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 2: the ceremonial space because the SSR will just blunt the experience.

587
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 2: And it was very interesting recently we were working with

588
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 2: a group and there is one person who just was

589
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 2: not having any impact that medicine was not impacting them,

590
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,280
Speaker 2: like we gave them, you know, boosters and boosters nothing,

591
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 2: And then the next day found out that they were

592
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 2: taking a nasal spray and that medicine actually does contraindicate

593
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 2: with psilocybin. So it was really some things you just

594
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 2: kind of learned along the way, which is why we

595
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,439
Speaker 2: are so particular to be like what medicines are, even

596
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,439
Speaker 2: if it's acting medicine or whatever, because these different things

597
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 2: can impact. But also in terms of a history of

598
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 2: psychosis like schizophrenia and things like this in your family,

599
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 2: there is also large reservation about inviting people to sit

600
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 2: with this medicine or with psychedelics in general, if that's

601
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 2: a deep history in the family. Yeah, those are some

602
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 2: of the big ones that pop out to me in

603
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 2: terms of contrastications.

604
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 1: And at least you have a great understanding just of

605
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: our kind of general audience and who typically are are

606
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 1: listeners of therapy for black girls. Are there any things

607
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: that you feel like you would want to share about

608
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,439
Speaker 1: who this might be a good fit for and maybe

609
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: who it would not be.

610
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 3: You know, part of me thinks I've just drank the

611
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 3: kool ai and I'm.

612
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 4: Like everyone do it, but I think there is I

613
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 4: personally think like a baseline of introspection into self that

614
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 4: you have to have, and of course feel free to

615
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 4: like push back on that, but I do think it

616
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 4: could be very jarring to have this experience and not

617
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 4: have like a level self reflection. I know people can

618
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 4: like throw that around to like dogpile all people like, oh,

619
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:06,800
Speaker 4: you don't self reflect, but I think it is true

620
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 4: if the medicine I use the term like meet myself.

621
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 4: But there were a lot of things I thought about

622
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,800
Speaker 4: in terms of like shame my inner critic in adyssey,

623
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 4: that I had already thought about in a safe way,

624
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 4: through my journaling practice, through therapy, through talking, you know,

625
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 4: with friends, in a more serious considered way. But I

626
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 4: do think if I hadn't already had that level of

627
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 4: like self awareness or self inquiry, it couldn't be really jarring,

628
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 4: and I could maybe come out on the other side

629
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,959
Speaker 4: a little more shameful of myself or a little more

630
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 4: frustrated with myself. So I think that is important to

631
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 4: maybe have a baseline of just thinking about who you are,

632
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 4: who you want to be, what you may be avoiding.

633
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 4: I think that is a big thing, Like, yes, from

634
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 4: my understanding, people can recall like traumatizing.

635
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 3: Experiences on the medicine that can happen.

636
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,280
Speaker 4: I think whether or not you're in therapy, whether you're journaling,

637
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 4: doing all the things. But I do think having a

638
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 4: level of recognition of I may be avoiding something or

639
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 4: this is coming up for me, and being a person

640
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 4: who has a monitor on that, whether it's like grade

641
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 4: one or more humble one, I think it would be

642
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 4: really important. And then I do think it sounds very vague,

643
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 4: but if you are ready to like take the next

644
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 4: step when it comes to self reflection and radical transformation,

645
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 4: I do think this could be considered a next step.

646
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 4: I was there for like a proper week, really wasn't

647
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 4: on my phone that much, Like obviously I use my phone,

648
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 4: but I think my screen time was like forty five

649
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 4: minutes today, and so that really did take removing myself

650
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 4: from I didn't work, I didn't watch Love Island. It

651
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 4: was my birthday, so I had to like take a

652
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 4: step back from that part of my life to tune

653
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 4: in with myself. Doing and that for like five or

654
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,919
Speaker 4: six days to me is kind of like a radical transformation.

655
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 4: And so making sure you're in a space.

656
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 3: To do that.

657
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 4: I have found I can have a lot of anxiety

658
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 4: when I have to put my phone down for like

659
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 4: four or five hours, or even at the nail slong

660
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 4: getting my nail set, because I'm like, what am I missing?

661
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,799
Speaker 4: And I think integration really did help me settle with that,

662
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 4: because those sessions were ninety minutes and so making sure

663
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 4: you're in a headspace to put some things aside to

664
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 4: focus on you. And I want to say that that

665
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 4: it's a privilege to be in that headspace. Not everyone

666
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 4: can be there, but I think it does take some checking.

667
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 3: In with myself.

668
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 4: Can I really be unplugged for.

669
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 3: Five or six days?

670
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:40,359
Speaker 4: It's less about the technology of it all, it's more

671
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 4: about the focus on the self.

672
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,919
Speaker 2: I think for people, regular women who are going through

673
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 2: these different life cycles and coming to kind of like

674
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 2: decision points where they're going to go right or left,

675
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 2: I feel like working with psilocybin at those times could

676
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,720
Speaker 2: be really powerful, you know, would encourage people to consider,

677
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 2: you know, having a session to support a release the

678
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 2: grief that might come from like moving from one phase

679
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 2: of your life to another, but also physiologically, you know,

680
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,839
Speaker 2: what's happening with a lot of psychedelics is they work

681
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 2: to really quiet the migdala like and the default mode

682
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 2: network to like just quiet that like chatter, chatter chatter,

683
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 2: so you can like really be clear with like what

684
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:29,439
Speaker 2: you're feeling and envisioning and what's coming through. And then

685
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 2: the weeks, you know that follow up, particularly the first

686
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 2: four to six weeks, there's a phase of elasticity in

687
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 2: the network in your neural field where than making new

688
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 2: choices and creating new habits is easier, And so I

689
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 2: really really recommend it. This is less of like who

690
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 2: it's not for, but I think for women in particular

691
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 2: who are moving through these different life stages, to kind

692
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 2: of those kind of critical moments is a really powerful

693
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,799
Speaker 2: time to sit with these types of medicines. And there's

694
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 2: also a lot of owing amount of interest and research

695
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 2: going on into working with these medicines for postpart of

696
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 2: support and so really helping to boost elasticity and clarity

697
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 2: and release and positivity that can be really depleted during

698
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 2: that time after birth.

699
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 1: So more from our conversation after the break, so Aneva,

700
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:33,799
Speaker 1: can you walk us through like the day to day

701
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 1: of the retreat what's actually happening. I think you mentioned

702
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,399
Speaker 1: that there were two kind of medicine ceremonies, but it's

703
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 1: a full week, so what else is happening during that

704
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 1: whole time?

705
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I love this. One of the facilitator and

706
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 2: dear friend who worked with over the years on this

707
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 2: project would describe the retreat as a breath So we

708
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 2: have the days we breathe in and then we have

709
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 2: the days we breathe out. And so people arrive on

710
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 2: that travel day and when they arrive on site, they

711
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 2: get a tour of the place, they get assigned to

712
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,839
Speaker 2: the where they're staying, when they kind of just kind

713
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 2: of chill out and we have a meal, and then

714
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 2: that evening we do an opening circle and so that's

715
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 2: our sort of first official time in person together. We introduce,

716
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 2: We do a cool name game, and then really go

717
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 2: over like what the week is going to be, like, expectations,

718
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 2: and then answer any questions that might come up. So

719
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 2: that's the first day, it's really light and then people

720
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:36,839
Speaker 2: can drift off and get some sleep, and then the

721
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 2: next day we breathe in together, and so the breathing

722
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:45,800
Speaker 2: in days are our ceremony days. Every day starts with mindfulness, movement, meditation,

723
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 2: so in the morning, early in the morning, everybody has

724
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 2: an opportunity to drop into that. And so that looks

725
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 2: like yoga, looks like meditation, walking, meditations, sitting, meditations, chanting.

726
00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 2: Each facilitator leads a different thing. There's a wonderful breakfast

727
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,359
Speaker 2: and then we do these one on one sessions which

728
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,840
Speaker 2: are really important. So it's a time for the participants

729
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 2: and the facilitators to connect ahead of the ceremony. And

730
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 2: it's either two facilitators and one participant or one on

731
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,800
Speaker 2: one and so it's just a time. It's about fifteen

732
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 2: twenty minutes and it's a time for there to be

733
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 2: a conversation about today, what is your internal weather, like,

734
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 2: what is your mindset? How are you today? And just

735
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 2: sort of getting a bib check. And then that's where

736
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 2: we talked about, Okay, let's talk about dosing where we

737
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 2: might want to start. Some people are really clear because

738
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 2: they're experience and they know. So people have no idea

739
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 2: and that's great, and so we haven't opened conversation about

740
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 2: it was not a mystery. Then they get to move

741
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 2: into this beautiful process of doing breath work, and so

742
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 2: it's a really really powerful session and a lot of

743
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 2: people have. Some people say they have more of a

744
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 2: deeper experience during the breath works and sometimes sitting with

745
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,799
Speaker 2: the medicine. I'm joking, of course, but it's a really

746
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 2: amazing primer. So it's a one hour to ninety minute

747
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 2: breathwork session where you're dropping into some really deep breathing

748
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:18,879
Speaker 2: exercises again to support the mind body system to go

749
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:22,839
Speaker 2: into the medicine session. And then the participants do what

750
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 2: we call the Smoothie talk. And so that is a

751
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 2: time because we don't offer lunch to participants on ceremony

752
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 2: days because we want the system to be open, but

753
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 2: we can provide a very nutritious and delicious green smoothie

754
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 2: and during the smoothy talk, it's kind of like a

755
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 2: pep talk. And also preparing folks for the ceremony or

756
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 2: the medicine dosing, and we also get so expectations is

757
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 2: another place to ask questions to normalize all of the

758
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 2: things that might come up during the journey. Then we

759
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 2: go into ceremony mid afternoon until about eight or nine,

760
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 2: and during that time we're in Beckley. We have this

761
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 2: beautiful outdoor space under this covered structure and you can

762
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,839
Speaker 2: hear the tree frogs and see the sunset and hear

763
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 2: all the birds. It's really lovely. So it's open air.

764
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 2: We have a musician playing, and then the facilitators in

765
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 2: the space holders are just holding the space in the circle,

766
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 2: supporting people as we need. People can walk around on

767
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 2: the grass or sit out there if they want, go

768
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:29,320
Speaker 2: back and forth to the bathroom, so it's just a beautiful, lovely,

769
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 2: lovely space. And then at the end of the ceremony day,

770
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 2: you can stay under the tent if you want, for

771
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,399
Speaker 2: as long as you need is because some people come

772
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 2: back down in a different rate than others. And then

773
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 2: we provide dinner and then sure everybody's good to go

774
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 2: to their rooms and get some rest. And then the

775
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 2: next day is followed by our exhalation days, so that's

776
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 2: the day we cand of rest and we do our integration.

777
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 2: So our integration days looks similarly. In the morning breakfast,

778
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,399
Speaker 2: there's a movement and mindfulness, and then we move into

779
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:07,439
Speaker 2: an integration session mid morning, which it's always a little

780
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 2: different depending on the day and also the group and

781
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 2: what's needed. But these are activities that really help folks

782
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 2: ground in and begin to express remember process, make sense

783
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 2: of share about what their experience was like in the

784
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,320
Speaker 2: journey space, and so we usually have like a group

785
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:32,240
Speaker 2: experience together and then we split off into smaller groups

786
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 2: so people have time to be in more intimate pods,

787
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 2: because sometimes you don't want to share in a big group,

788
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,319
Speaker 2: or maybe you want to you'll get there later. So

789
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 2: we'd like to really think about those different intelligences as

790
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 2: we hold the space. And then it repeats so that

791
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 2: we have our breathing end day where we do the

792
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 2: journey day again. It's that Nick just repeats the same process.

793
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,919
Speaker 2: Then we excel another day into integration, and I will

794
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 2: also say on the integration and rest days we do

795
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 2: an excursion to a beach, which quite lovely, and we

796
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:05,919
Speaker 2: also offer folks access to massages and which is really

797
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:10,240
Speaker 2: important as well. And then on that last day before

798
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 2: we depart, we offer a final check in, one on

799
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:19,479
Speaker 2: one check in just to say, okay, how was the week,

800
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 2: how did it all go, And to also provide that

801
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 2: one on one space with the participant with the facilitator

802
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 2: in case there's something that's emerged that they don't want

803
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 2: to share the large group, and so just to give

804
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 2: that space to really kind of tie things up in

805
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 2: a bow in a way to make sure people are

806
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 2: settled and feeling like they're prepared to go back out

807
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:44,839
Speaker 2: into the world. We also do closing integration circle where

808
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 2: we talk about here are all the things that we

809
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 2: used and learned in this week that you can take

810
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 2: back with you. Here are some pointers of how we

811
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 2: integrate and have our soft landing back into the world.

812
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 2: And yeah, the next day people get for breakfast and

813
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 2: began to journey back out into their lives. So that's

814
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,320
Speaker 2: the more detailed flow of the week.

815
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 1: And Alize, was there anything that was like shocking or

816
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 1: surprising for you as you spent time there for the week?

817
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 4: Not surprising, but I was surprised that I really attached

818
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:23,240
Speaker 4: to a lot of the tapping and the shaking practices.

819
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 4: I think they can seem a bit silly. I remember

820
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 4: growing up my mom had like a mini trampoline and

821
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 4: she was like, this is good for you, This is

822
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 4: good for you, and I didn't really understand why. But

823
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 4: now that I'm older and I know more about tapping

824
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 4: and shaking and just what it does for you to

825
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:45,319
Speaker 4: feel settled in your body. Although it is awkward and

826
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 4: like not a movement, we do naturally.

827
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 3: I have like a newfound appreciation for it.

828
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,279
Speaker 4: And something that was said during their treat was all

829
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 4: of these practices, from the breath work to the meditation

830
00:47:57,239 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 4: to the dancing. We also did poetry therapy are a

831
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 4: part the larger toolkit of how to be in tune

832
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:07,919
Speaker 4: with how you're feeling, how your body actually feels, and

833
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,759
Speaker 4: how to really sit with yourself. That was one that

834
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:13,839
Speaker 4: I have now implemented into my morning. So a little

835
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 4: bit of hopping, bouncing, shaking, and I think meditation was

836
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 4: my vehicle to like in a body scan typically like okay,

837
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 4: how do I feel.

838
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 3: From head to toe?

839
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 4: I like that this one is maybe a little more active.

840
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 4: I'm concerned to be a bit of a hyper person.

841
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 4: So I was surprised at how much I connected to that.

842
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 4: And then piggybacking off of what Hanifa said about the

843
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 4: breath work, like some people have insights almost akin to

844
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 4: the psychedelics on the breath work, and I definitely did,

845
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,239
Speaker 4: And so I was surprised at that I have not

846
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 4: traditionally loved breath work. I found that my mouth is

847
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:53,720
Speaker 4: always very dry, I feel very fish out of water

848
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 4: during breath work, but I will say, just really the

849
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:00,880
Speaker 4: simple practice of breathing inthe out and then doing at

850
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:05,400
Speaker 4: a certain tempo. My mind was able to focus on

851
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 4: things I hadn't focused on before.

852
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 3: And at what.

853
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 4: Point I kind of like threw my hands up and

854
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 4: then visually like dropped them down. In my mind, I

855
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 4: saw a cinder block, and I had been thinking about

856
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 4: something I really wanted to release, and I had a

857
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:24,319
Speaker 4: lot of anxiety about coming into the trip, and so

858
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 4: it was interesting that just during the breath work I

859
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 4: physically and mentally released it. I found out to be

860
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 4: really surprising because I thought I was going to have

861
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 4: more of that type of out of body experience on

862
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 4: the psychedelics, and I didn't. And so, like I said,

863
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,799
Speaker 4: stripping myself with the preconceived notions, I was happy to

864
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:46,400
Speaker 4: discover an alternative way to attach.

865
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 3: To my emotion. So that was pretty cool too.

866
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 1: You know, as I'm listening to both you and Elie speak,

867
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 1: and even as you set this up talking about the

868
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 1: intentionality around not having every moment be scheduled and like

869
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 1: the need for a risk, so much of this feels

870
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 1: like something that black women would be running to and

871
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:06,319
Speaker 1: like feel really compelled to want to do kind of

872
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:09,800
Speaker 1: just given the everyday business, go go go of our lives.

873
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:12,759
Speaker 1: But I also know that even when we sometimes go

874
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,439
Speaker 1: to these spaces and this is what we're looking for,

875
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:19,399
Speaker 1: it can be really uncomfortable because it's so different than

876
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 1: how we're typically moving. And there can be a resistance too,

877
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,720
Speaker 1: like the slowing down and allowing yourself to be held

878
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:26,720
Speaker 1: and to be helped.

879
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 2: Like Alis said, can you.

880
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 1: Talk about like how you recognize when maybe some of

881
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 1: this resistance is coming up for the people who are participating,

882
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 1: and how is that dealt with during the week long retreat.

883
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:42,800
Speaker 2: It really begins when we do our one on ones

884
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 2: just after they do their screening, So after the very beginning,

885
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 2: after they do their medical screening, they get assigned one

886
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:55,319
Speaker 2: on one with one of the facilitators, and so it's

887
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:58,880
Speaker 2: a time for us like meet each person individually and

888
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 2: we can begin to assess and understand and recognize pattern.

889
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:09,240
Speaker 2: And there's some people who are just open to anything.

890
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:12,359
Speaker 2: Then there's some people who they need a schedule, they

891
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 2: need rigidness, they need to know what's happening. Then you

892
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 2: have people who are very timid, and everybody's different, but

893
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:22,480
Speaker 2: it's like that's our kind of first introduction, and so

894
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:25,839
Speaker 2: when we're doing this, we're looking for, Okay, what are

895
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:30,279
Speaker 2: some of the ways of being that will be subortive

896
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 2: and conducive to their experience, and what are some of

897
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:37,720
Speaker 2: the ways of being that might be restrictive or hindering

898
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 2: or potentially resistant causing resistance to the experience. And so

899
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 2: something we see right away. And then in the virtual

900
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:52,719
Speaker 2: preparation sessions, you know, there's things that we're saying and

901
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 2: introducing and doing right away to support the mind to

902
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:02,240
Speaker 2: understand that, oh, I can relax. So during the virtual

903
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:06,920
Speaker 2: sessions of preparation, we're doing mindfulness right away. It's not

904
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 2: like we just introduce it during the retreat. We're doing

905
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:14,479
Speaker 2: virtual and during the preparations we're doing windfulness, we're doing

906
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 2: body scans, we're slowing down, we're putting hands to heart,

907
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 2: we're breathing. And so because we want to we want

908
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 2: to normalize that as a way of being that's possible.

909
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:29,239
Speaker 2: And it's amazing. You just do box breathing for five

910
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 2: minutes and you can see the shift in the participants

911
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:37,800
Speaker 2: in the group and people saying, oh, that was so easy.

912
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:40,839
Speaker 2: I don't know why I don't do that. More and

913
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 2: so also you know it's during also are the one

914
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:48,800
Speaker 2: on ones that we do before on the medicine dosing days.

915
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:51,759
Speaker 2: That's a time for us to also as practitioners and

916
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:57,319
Speaker 2: facilitators help reflect back patterns of resistance that might be

917
00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:01,480
Speaker 2: coming up, to help people recognize and see that as well.

918
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 2: And normally though in the actually on the ceremony days

919
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 2: and the docing days, there will be a time where

920
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:16,880
Speaker 2: one or more people will be clearly resisting. And so

921
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 2: what we can do or what we do do is

922
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:23,439
Speaker 2: to go over ask if they need assistance, support them

923
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:26,799
Speaker 2: changing the setting a little bit, so saying hey, do

924
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 2: you would have gone on the grass? Hey, you want

925
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:31,120
Speaker 2: to change perspective? Way we can lie down and look

926
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 2: up at the sky. So supporting changing the setting is

927
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:38,319
Speaker 2: a really big way to support patterns of resistance that

928
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 2: show up without being like, hey, you're resisting, stop doing that.

929
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 2: There's no we don't want to be shaving shaming people.

930
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:49,239
Speaker 2: And also the music, the music really is such a

931
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:52,800
Speaker 2: big part of the journey and ceremony experience and really

932
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:57,280
Speaker 2: in a very consistent way is supporting people to relax

933
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 2: more and to counteract sort of natural states and resistance

934
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:06,200
Speaker 2: that exist, and yeah, at least I would love to

935
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 2: hear what your perspective is and wasn't that because I

936
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:13,480
Speaker 2: know that you might have experienced and resistance during the

937
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:14,360
Speaker 2: York experience.

938
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 4: I remember during the first ceremony, I was writing, and

939
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:19,799
Speaker 4: I was probably writing.

940
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 3: Just scribbling things down.

941
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:27,320
Speaker 4: And I think in a way, as someone who makes

942
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 4: media for a living, booth writing and producing, that is

943
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 4: my way of thinking through the world. And so, like

944
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 4: I said, I have a journaling practice at a journal

945
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 4: every day, and so I think automatically I reverted back

946
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:40,839
Speaker 4: to that, let me write it down, let me get

947
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 4: it out. And I think that was a bit of

948
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:46,360
Speaker 4: resistance with feeling or just sitting with it. And so

949
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:48,480
Speaker 4: then I remember Anetha came over. It gave me the

950
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:53,760
Speaker 4: little instrument to like tinker with, and I was still thinking,

951
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:57,240
Speaker 4: and I was still like in my body. But I

952
00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 4: think that when it comes to our emotion, they're in

953
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:04,040
Speaker 4: our day to day lives. They're maybe like a right

954
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 4: way to process things. Oh I have to write about it.

955
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:08,440
Speaker 4: Oh I have to tell someone about it. Oh I

956
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 4: have to put that emotion to some type of use.

957
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:13,440
Speaker 4: And I think the way to get out of that

958
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:14,960
Speaker 4: pattern of resistance was like.

959
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:17,359
Speaker 3: Well, what if you don't what if you can just

960
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 3: say with it and let it be?

961
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 4: And even during the second ceremony I joked a little

962
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 4: bit about this with the team I was I had

963
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:27,920
Speaker 4: my own podcast during the second Samurai I was talking

964
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:31,879
Speaker 4: for outwards, and I think there were times where I

965
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:34,920
Speaker 4: was reminded, just say with that emotion, just say with

966
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:38,239
Speaker 4: what you just said, and not even sit with it

967
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:40,239
Speaker 4: to think on it or reflect on it or in

968
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:43,319
Speaker 4: this punitive way. But how does your body feel after

969
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 4: you express what you said? And you don't always have

970
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 4: to move to the next thing, or you don't.

971
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:48,240
Speaker 3: Have to connect the next stot.

972
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:52,880
Speaker 4: And it's funny because you realize how sounds sley, but

973
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:55,880
Speaker 4: how you you are like, oh of course me the producer,

974
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 4: the podcast person is talking this much and is think

975
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 4: think about the next thing I should say or the

976
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:04,320
Speaker 4: next thing I should think about instead of just okay,

977
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 4: you said it, let it be. I don't know, I

978
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:10,799
Speaker 4: may have had two more hours on the medicine and

979
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 4: so it was okay to like sit with that silence.

980
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:16,239
Speaker 4: And so I think that was a really great way

981
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:18,720
Speaker 4: to put it as resistance and what are the ways

982
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 4: in which we feel our emotions, but we don't allow

983
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 4: ourselves to really sit with them. And something I said

984
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:25,880
Speaker 4: that I wanted to come into the retreat was to

985
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 4: be like more intimate with the parts of myself that

986
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:29,359
Speaker 4: I may not already.

987
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:29,759
Speaker 3: Be intimate with.

988
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 4: And I think having whether it was me, myself or

989
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:37,960
Speaker 4: one of the facilitators recognize that resistance and have tools

990
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:40,760
Speaker 4: to counteract that, it did help me be more intimate

991
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:42,200
Speaker 4: with the things I was uncovering.

992
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:47,520
Speaker 1: On the medicine, Honita, how is the medicine administered? Is

993
00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:51,839
Speaker 1: this appeal or is it like a part of this movie?

994
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:58,280
Speaker 1: Like how are we consuming the psilosybn.

995
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:03,560
Speaker 2: Read for question? Not in this smoothing. So the psilocybin

996
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:09,440
Speaker 2: is administered through or with a te So the tea

997
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:13,720
Speaker 2: and then we also offer a booster about an hour

998
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:16,920
Speaker 2: or so into the experience of people feel like they

999
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:19,520
Speaker 2: want to boostt and that comes in the form of

1000
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:26,200
Speaker 2: mushroom infused chocolate. And so during the ceremony we have

1001
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:31,120
Speaker 2: this beautiful practice of we start at the heart of

1002
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 2: the journey and we in depth the heart, so that's

1003
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 2: under the tent. And so during the first phase we gather.

1004
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 2: We also do some clearing with different types of plants

1005
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 2: like sage and palasanto and sweet grass and things. So

1006
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:48,160
Speaker 2: we do smoke clearing off. Everybody is a come in

1007
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:51,440
Speaker 2: if they want that, and then we do kind of

1008
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:56,240
Speaker 2: opening where we're like welcoming everybody, sort of setting the container,

1009
00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:01,120
Speaker 2: setting words of intention, and then we pour the tea.

1010
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:05,880
Speaker 2: So during the one on wine sessions that happened earlier

1011
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:09,120
Speaker 2: in the afternoon, that's when we determine what the dose

1012
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:13,640
Speaker 2: is going to be for each person and then that's

1013
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:17,800
Speaker 2: noted and then we make that tea for each person

1014
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 2: in a little cup and we just give that to

1015
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:23,600
Speaker 2: each of them as they're sitting in the circle. Once

1016
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:26,480
Speaker 2: everybody has their medicine, then they all ingest at the

1017
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:30,960
Speaker 2: same time, which is very important practice. And then yeah,

1018
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:35,640
Speaker 2: it takes anywhere between for some people thirty minutes to

1019
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,360
Speaker 2: an hour for them to begin to fill the effects

1020
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:41,600
Speaker 2: of that. But yeah, so it's in a tea and

1021
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:44,880
Speaker 2: it's usually like a linen grass orvial tea with the

1022
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:48,160
Speaker 2: medicine mixed in and the medicine you know, it comes

1023
00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:52,080
Speaker 2: from cultivator in Jamaica that I Beck's been working with

1024
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:57,280
Speaker 2: for years and they round the whole mushrooms up into

1025
00:58:57,360 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 2: a powder. So it's already ground. We used to after

1026
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 2: grounded deffer ourselves, but it's now comes pre ground, it's

1027
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:09,760
Speaker 2: tested for potency, it's measured out in ingrams. So yeah,

1028
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:10,680
Speaker 2: really good question.

1029
00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:13,800
Speaker 1: So at least what has integration been like for you,

1030
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:16,600
Speaker 1: both the things that you're doing more structurally with Beckley

1031
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 1: and kind of just on your own.

1032
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:24,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, So structurally with Beckley, there is an alumni group chat,

1033
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:27,560
Speaker 4: so that's like the greater universe of people who have

1034
00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:28,920
Speaker 4: done a Beckley retreat.

1035
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:30,360
Speaker 3: Then we do have a group.

1036
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:33,480
Speaker 4: Chat with our retreat members and the facilitators there who

1037
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:36,640
Speaker 4: have like shared songs we listened to and just done

1038
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:39,440
Speaker 4: like general checkups on each other, but also some of

1039
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:42,040
Speaker 4: the different practices we talked about, just like listing all

1040
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:44,920
Speaker 4: of them. So we actually have a list of this toolkit,

1041
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:48,560
Speaker 4: and then we have we did before we came in.

1042
00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:53,640
Speaker 4: We have ninety minute sessions with facilitators where we're doing

1043
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:57,240
Speaker 4: meditations on those sessions. We did a journally exercise last

1044
00:59:57,240 --> 01:00:00,720
Speaker 4: week which I found to be particularly helped, where we've

1045
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:01,520
Speaker 4: reflected on.

1046
01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:04,360
Speaker 3: I think four of our values and.

1047
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:08,280
Speaker 4: I think That's also something I confronted on the medicine especially,

1048
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:11,880
Speaker 4: A big thing I confronted was work and creative work

1049
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:16,320
Speaker 4: and what I went out of that, and those were

1050
01:00:16,360 --> 01:00:18,480
Speaker 4: really reflective of my value. So then to kind of

1051
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:21,920
Speaker 4: have that put into words after, what I appreciate is

1052
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:24,640
Speaker 4: that it does feel like a bespoke experience, like, Okay,

1053
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:26,960
Speaker 4: this is what this group needs, and so this is

1054
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:29,280
Speaker 4: what we're going to kind of talk about with dis groove,

1055
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:31,880
Speaker 4: and then a lot of sharing about how we I

1056
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:34,360
Speaker 4: think that first week. I didn't attend the session this

1057
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:37,760
Speaker 4: week because I was working, but in that first week,

1058
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:40,680
Speaker 4: just how we feel, what hasn't been like to just

1059
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:44,440
Speaker 4: be at home because it hadn't even been a week yet.

1060
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:45,440
Speaker 3: And something that.

1061
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:49,880
Speaker 4: Came up for me was feeling very like protective of

1062
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:55,240
Speaker 4: the experience and wanting to honor the way I share

1063
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:58,120
Speaker 4: even I think I've changed the way I even talk

1064
01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:01,439
Speaker 4: about quote unquote like shrooms, its medicine, and so that's

1065
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:03,520
Speaker 4: like a little thing that I've integrated. But a big

1066
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:07,520
Speaker 4: thing was knowing that I was going to be on

1067
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 4: camera beyond my talking about the experience, and for lack

1068
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:13,880
Speaker 4: of a better word, not wanting to like pimp it out,

1069
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:16,960
Speaker 4: not wanting to cheapen it. That was something that I

1070
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:19,640
Speaker 4: think was really important to my integration, Like how am

1071
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 4: I sharing Who do I feel safe with to share

1072
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:22,800
Speaker 4: about this?

1073
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:25,440
Speaker 3: Because it was, you know, not these.

1074
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 4: Big, dramatic traumatic things that happened in my life that

1075
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:31,160
Speaker 4: came to the surface, but more, like I said, of

1076
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:34,640
Speaker 4: an intimacy with myself that I think needs to be

1077
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:38,040
Speaker 4: honor how special that is. And so there are absolutely

1078
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:41,360
Speaker 4: people who I have declined to talk to about the

1079
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:44,760
Speaker 4: experience and in the most respectful way possible, but I

1080
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:47,160
Speaker 4: want that information to be held with as much.

1081
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:48,800
Speaker 3: Safety and care as the retreat was.

1082
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:51,480
Speaker 4: It's not to say, you know, these people are evil people,

1083
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:54,680
Speaker 4: but again it's the practice of like listening to your body,

1084
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 4: listening to your intuition, and knowing, like where do I

1085
01:01:57,520 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 4: feel safe to talk about all of this knowledge and.

1086
01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:02,480
Speaker 3: Wisdom I have of self now.

1087
01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:05,880
Speaker 4: So that's something I've been a little more boundaried about,

1088
01:02:05,960 --> 01:02:09,440
Speaker 4: and I allotted other participants even during the experience, to

1089
01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:14,000
Speaker 4: be that boundaried with themselves and their time and their intimacy.

1090
01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:18,240
Speaker 4: And so it's something that I definitely modeled. Another thing

1091
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:21,840
Speaker 4: is I call myself like the Queen of the morning.

1092
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:23,440
Speaker 4: My little sister staying with me right now, and I

1093
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:26,840
Speaker 4: told her, like, I don't really talk until like a

1094
01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:29,480
Speaker 4: certain point in the day. I have very quiet mornings.

1095
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:32,440
Speaker 4: I wake up, journal, I pull a card, I go

1096
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:34,880
Speaker 4: on and walk. I have a very strict morning routine.

1097
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:37,400
Speaker 4: And something that I kind of confronted during the retreat

1098
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:39,720
Speaker 4: is I do all that stuff in the morning so

1099
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:44,560
Speaker 4: I can optimize during the day, whether it's work, work out, socialize.

1100
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:47,880
Speaker 4: And you would think that's to your benefit, but it's

1101
01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:49,960
Speaker 4: not like I don't pause during the day.

1102
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:52,120
Speaker 3: I don't, you know, not to be that person. I

1103
01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:53,280
Speaker 3: don't really take naps.

1104
01:02:54,560 --> 01:02:57,080
Speaker 4: I would just concentrate all this like quote unquote self

1105
01:02:57,080 --> 01:02:59,120
Speaker 4: care to the beginning of the day and then maybe

1106
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:03,640
Speaker 4: some more like formal bedtime practices. But what we did

1107
01:03:03,640 --> 01:03:06,280
Speaker 4: at the retreat was it was really spaced out, like

1108
01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:07,600
Speaker 4: we did things in the morning, we did things in

1109
01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:09,880
Speaker 4: the afternoon, we did things in the evening, and we

1110
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:12,280
Speaker 4: were constantly checking in with ourselves. And that's something that

1111
01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:14,080
Speaker 4: I definitely implement it now.

1112
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:15,400
Speaker 3: Still have my.

1113
01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:18,640
Speaker 4: Morning routine, but just shaking up where in the day

1114
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:22,760
Speaker 4: I'm saying, hey, are you feeling Okay, I'm like very

1115
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:24,720
Speaker 4: aware of like my heart rating all of those things,

1116
01:03:24,760 --> 01:03:26,920
Speaker 4: and so taking a moment to do some more intentional

1117
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:32,360
Speaker 4: breathing has really been to my benefit, you know. Like

1118
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:34,680
Speaker 4: I said, I noticed that all that stuff was concentrated

1119
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:38,160
Speaker 4: in the morning, and yes it was in service of self,

1120
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:40,680
Speaker 4: but so I could do all these other things, and

1121
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:43,520
Speaker 4: so now I'm more like, Okay, let me meditate at

1122
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:46,360
Speaker 4: like two point thirty and at five point thirty, like,

1123
01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:49,080
Speaker 4: let me go on a walk, maybe no phone, no headphones,

1124
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:52,120
Speaker 4: and just be very present. And so having those moments

1125
01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:55,400
Speaker 4: of presence, but those moments of quality time would sell

1126
01:03:55,960 --> 01:03:59,280
Speaker 4: Pepper throughout the day as opposed to this grand opening,

1127
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:03,040
Speaker 4: grand clothing where you're maybe a bit tired, distracted, just

1128
01:04:03,240 --> 01:04:04,840
Speaker 4: regulated in between.

1129
01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:18,160
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, Benifa, I have

1130
01:04:18,320 --> 01:04:21,280
Speaker 1: had a couple of conversations with friends and colleagues who

1131
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:24,880
Speaker 1: have done journeys and different kinds of experiences, and I'm

1132
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:27,760
Speaker 1: very mindful of the fact that it feels like something

1133
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:31,960
Speaker 1: that gets only talked about one on one, right, So

1134
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:35,640
Speaker 1: it's not something that people are talking about publicly online.

1135
01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:39,120
Speaker 1: It kind of travels through this kind of underground network

1136
01:04:39,160 --> 01:04:41,240
Speaker 1: of Oh, hey, I tried this thing. It might be

1137
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:43,440
Speaker 1: cool for you too. And I feel like some of

1138
01:04:43,440 --> 01:04:45,320
Speaker 1: it may be related to, like you talked about, like

1139
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:47,840
Speaker 1: the regulations and you know, having to maybe go to

1140
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:50,480
Speaker 1: other countries to do it. I also wonder if there

1141
01:04:50,560 --> 01:04:55,120
Speaker 1: is still some like stigma and shame around this being

1142
01:04:55,200 --> 01:04:57,880
Speaker 1: kind of an alternative medicine and non traditional kind of thing.

1143
01:04:57,960 --> 01:04:59,480
Speaker 1: Can you speak to that and maybe some of the

1144
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:02,760
Speaker 1: misconceps options that you feel like black women in particular

1145
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:05,160
Speaker 1: have about psychedelic assisted care.

1146
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:09,720
Speaker 2: Yes, as you will clearly know, the stigma around just

1147
01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:13,000
Speaker 2: going to therapy came with a lot and still comes

1148
01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:16,000
Speaker 2: with some stigma in our community with black women. I

1149
01:05:16,040 --> 01:05:18,400
Speaker 2: feel in the past decade or so, we're moving more

1150
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:20,600
Speaker 2: towards like, oh, this is a normal thing and this

1151
01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:24,479
Speaker 2: is a good thing, and so psychedelic assistic care comes

1152
01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:28,880
Speaker 2: with even more of that stigma, right, because we cannot

1153
01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:33,040
Speaker 2: forget about the War on drugs, which people often talk

1154
01:05:33,040 --> 01:05:35,480
Speaker 2: about as if it was a thing in the past,

1155
01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:38,480
Speaker 2: but it's actually still very much here. And we know

1156
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:41,240
Speaker 2: that the War on drugs was a war on people,

1157
01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:44,480
Speaker 2: war on back and run people in particular, and so

1158
01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:48,440
Speaker 2: there's a really big thing around just like safety legality,

1159
01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:53,000
Speaker 2: or putting ourselves in harms way with some intention, and

1160
01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:55,640
Speaker 2: so that it's not even so much that the actual

1161
01:05:56,360 --> 01:05:58,920
Speaker 2: medicine has a taboo, but like why would you put

1162
01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:03,240
Speaker 2: yourself in harm's way with the law right when you know,

1163
01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:06,440
Speaker 2: when the Ginnings used to come after you, particular if

1164
01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:09,480
Speaker 2: you're brown and black and you're working with these medicines

1165
01:06:09,560 --> 01:06:13,120
Speaker 2: or have these medicines in your possession, that's that reality

1166
01:06:13,160 --> 01:06:16,920
Speaker 2: is still very much a reality. And I think that

1167
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:22,400
Speaker 2: you couple that with the stigma that these medicines they're

1168
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:26,720
Speaker 2: not even talked about as medicines. They're talked about as drugs,

1169
01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:30,480
Speaker 2: so talked about as illicit drugs. They're talked about as

1170
01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:34,320
Speaker 2: things that you'll lose all your self control and you're

1171
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:37,640
Speaker 2: going to go do things that are crazy and unsafe.

1172
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:41,080
Speaker 2: That stigma is very very strong in the community. There

1173
01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:43,600
Speaker 2: is a study that came out a couple years ago

1174
01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:46,000
Speaker 2: where they just there was like a market research study

1175
01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:49,760
Speaker 2: and they just changed the word and they said natural

1176
01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:54,400
Speaker 2: medicines instead of saying psychedelics, and the uptake and acceptability

1177
01:06:54,440 --> 01:06:57,960
Speaker 2: of that from the black community was like one hundred

1178
01:06:58,160 --> 01:07:01,400
Speaker 2: percent higher than like when you say psychedelics, and you

1179
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:05,000
Speaker 2: could say psychedelic treatment or even psychedelic medicine, but that

1180
01:07:05,080 --> 01:07:10,000
Speaker 2: word psychedelics still holds this trigger of harm and danger

1181
01:07:10,400 --> 01:07:15,120
Speaker 2: because of the societal oppression, right, that we experience in

1182
01:07:15,160 --> 01:07:19,800
Speaker 2: this country. And so I think that more and more

1183
01:07:19,800 --> 01:07:23,160
Speaker 2: people are doing these medicines and have been doing them,

1184
01:07:23,240 --> 01:07:25,800
Speaker 2: and particularly in the black community. And it is very

1185
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:30,040
Speaker 2: very very very much underground. And I was holding these

1186
01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:33,120
Speaker 2: taxas spaces for a long time, and I had full

1187
01:07:33,120 --> 01:07:36,160
Speaker 2: time drimas live my life, but I had to work

1188
01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:39,240
Speaker 2: in silence, and I had to work underground and in

1189
01:07:39,360 --> 01:07:42,160
Speaker 2: preregulated spaces, and I had to be very careful about

1190
01:07:42,160 --> 01:07:45,760
Speaker 2: who I talked to because right, there's all types of

1191
01:07:46,600 --> 01:07:49,720
Speaker 2: other things at stake in terms of like if you

1192
01:07:49,720 --> 01:07:53,240
Speaker 2: hold licenses and you're finding out that not only that

1193
01:07:53,560 --> 01:07:55,440
Speaker 2: you might be holding space, of that you've done this

1194
01:07:55,800 --> 01:08:00,600
Speaker 2: in the United States where it is illegal, right, And

1195
01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:06,880
Speaker 2: then also like you can lose access, you can lose friendships,

1196
01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:11,360
Speaker 2: you could lose jobs, you could lose your people's perception

1197
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:15,520
Speaker 2: of you if they think you're doing psychedelics and like

1198
01:08:16,280 --> 01:08:20,240
Speaker 2: pushing in onto other people. And so I know that

1199
01:08:20,320 --> 01:08:25,080
Speaker 2: there's a very large underground scene and community and ecosystem.

1200
01:08:25,360 --> 01:08:29,400
Speaker 2: And I have a theory that as things above ground

1201
01:08:30,760 --> 01:08:33,320
Speaker 2: get bigger and continue to grow and you have more

1202
01:08:33,360 --> 01:08:37,799
Speaker 2: regulated spaces and it's moving into healthcare and the medical model,

1203
01:08:38,160 --> 01:08:40,919
Speaker 2: that the underground is actually going to go deeper and wider,

1204
01:08:41,240 --> 01:08:44,080
Speaker 2: because there will be some people who will never seek

1205
01:08:44,520 --> 01:08:49,320
Speaker 2: these medicines out in a regulated system, and vice versa.

1206
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:52,519
Speaker 2: There will be people who would never maybe even because

1207
01:08:52,520 --> 01:08:55,479
Speaker 2: of like access and not knowing anyone be able to

1208
01:08:56,080 --> 01:09:00,240
Speaker 2: receive these medicines and nonderground setting. And so I think

1209
01:09:00,320 --> 01:09:04,240
Speaker 2: that there's more and more and more research coming out

1210
01:09:04,360 --> 01:09:10,040
Speaker 2: and in this system, that's how things become acceptable, that's

1211
01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:13,439
Speaker 2: how they start to become normalized. And so, but what's

1212
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:18,120
Speaker 2: being normalized is when you apply these medicines, and more

1213
01:09:18,120 --> 01:09:21,559
Speaker 2: and more these are synthetic versions of these medicines two

1214
01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:28,640
Speaker 2: conditions treatment resistant depression or PTSD or major depressive disorders.

1215
01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:32,599
Speaker 2: The more studies come out that show that these medicines

1216
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:35,599
Speaker 2: work when they're coupled with therapy and support, and that

1217
01:09:35,640 --> 01:09:39,720
Speaker 2: they're working more than other treatments. There's been over one

1218
01:09:39,800 --> 01:09:44,080
Speaker 2: hundred clinical studies trials done in the past ten years

1219
01:09:44,479 --> 01:09:48,200
Speaker 2: that in both psychologic science and psychologic medicines. Right now,

1220
01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:52,400
Speaker 2: at the FDA level, there are three applications under review. Again,

1221
01:09:52,600 --> 01:09:56,400
Speaker 2: there are all synthetic, so there's two for psilocybin, one

1222
01:09:56,600 --> 01:10:00,640
Speaker 2: for methylone, which is like an md A light. I

1223
01:10:00,680 --> 01:10:04,280
Speaker 2: think with the signaling that we're also getting on the

1224
01:10:04,400 --> 01:10:08,080
Speaker 2: federal and state levels, there's over twenty five states in

1225
01:10:08,120 --> 01:10:11,160
Speaker 2: the United States right now that have legislation for research

1226
01:10:11,800 --> 01:10:15,880
Speaker 2: or that have kind of trigger legislation that win these

1227
01:10:15,920 --> 01:10:19,360
Speaker 2: medicines get FDA clear that it'll be legal in those states.

1228
01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:25,280
Speaker 2: So there's a lot happening and slowly rippling out. But

1229
01:10:25,360 --> 01:10:29,120
Speaker 2: I also know in these trials and in these studies,

1230
01:10:29,680 --> 01:10:32,080
Speaker 2: you know, it's less than three percent of those folks

1231
01:10:32,080 --> 01:10:35,720
Speaker 2: are people who are women and black women, right So

1232
01:10:36,479 --> 01:10:41,639
Speaker 2: there's a lot to be done around normalizing the use

1233
01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:45,439
Speaker 2: and practice of psychedelic asist to care and therapy. And

1234
01:10:45,479 --> 01:10:48,320
Speaker 2: we have a long way to go. And a part

1235
01:10:48,360 --> 01:10:52,600
Speaker 2: of my work commission is yeah, educating folks to understand

1236
01:10:53,439 --> 01:10:58,320
Speaker 2: that these medicines can be used safely and really really

1237
01:10:58,400 --> 01:11:04,080
Speaker 2: lifting up as to hear you also say that doing

1238
01:11:04,120 --> 01:11:08,120
Speaker 2: this work in a group model and providing community based

1239
01:11:08,200 --> 01:11:11,479
Speaker 2: care after the medicine sessions I think will continue to

1240
01:11:11,520 --> 01:11:14,360
Speaker 2: help spread the word, and so much of it as

1241
01:11:14,400 --> 01:11:17,320
Speaker 2: word of mouth, particularly with black women, for sure.

1242
01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:20,799
Speaker 4: I want to add to that something that, especially as

1243
01:11:20,960 --> 01:11:23,719
Speaker 4: like a gen Z person, something that I have witness

1244
01:11:23,760 --> 01:11:27,520
Speaker 4: and we all have witnesses, is that like, wellness.

1245
01:11:27,080 --> 01:11:29,080
Speaker 3: Culture is popular culture.

1246
01:11:29,280 --> 01:11:33,240
Speaker 4: And I do think there's basketball, and there's Love Island

1247
01:11:33,280 --> 01:11:35,559
Speaker 4: and reality TV and they're kind of like, you know,

1248
01:11:35,640 --> 01:11:39,040
Speaker 4: your rules for engagement. I do think that has happened

1249
01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:42,400
Speaker 4: with what wellness culture is. And so there's ways people

1250
01:11:42,400 --> 01:11:46,920
Speaker 4: speak about therapy. There's pop psychology, and that all that

1251
01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:50,360
Speaker 4: language is very legible. People can use it to grow

1252
01:11:50,400 --> 01:11:53,040
Speaker 4: their platforms. And that's not to say they're being disingenuous,

1253
01:11:53,120 --> 01:11:57,320
Speaker 4: but I do think psychedelics exist outside of that. It's

1254
01:11:57,360 --> 01:11:59,800
Speaker 4: not something people have like the knowledge on in our

1255
01:12:00,200 --> 01:12:04,479
Speaker 4: literate on and so in the way where you could

1256
01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:08,799
Speaker 4: tell your boss like hey, I need to take thirty

1257
01:12:08,800 --> 01:12:12,599
Speaker 4: minutes twice a week for my therapy session, that is

1258
01:12:12,640 --> 01:12:14,720
Speaker 4: not going to go the same if you're like, oh,

1259
01:12:14,720 --> 01:12:17,320
Speaker 4: I need to take a week to go to Norway

1260
01:12:17,439 --> 01:12:20,400
Speaker 4: or the Netherlands and do psychedelics, Like that's just it's

1261
01:12:20,439 --> 01:12:23,439
Speaker 4: not the same, and yes, legality goes into that, but

1262
01:12:23,479 --> 01:12:26,479
Speaker 4: I also think the ways in which what is popular

1263
01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:28,639
Speaker 4: and what is not in wellness culture, Like I said,

1264
01:12:28,680 --> 01:12:31,080
Speaker 4: psychedelics exists outside of that, and so I think it

1265
01:12:31,120 --> 01:12:35,519
Speaker 4: can be hard for people to engage with it because it's.

1266
01:12:35,360 --> 01:12:37,479
Speaker 3: Not what we see in popular wellness culture.

1267
01:12:37,520 --> 01:12:40,240
Speaker 4: And I think that's where like a lot of resistance

1268
01:12:40,280 --> 01:12:45,040
Speaker 4: and misconceptions and judgments can come up. And so I

1269
01:12:45,080 --> 01:12:49,240
Speaker 4: think what's exciting is that in a way we start small,

1270
01:12:49,320 --> 01:12:52,519
Speaker 4: like there's ashwaganda that people are interested in, and like

1271
01:12:52,920 --> 01:12:56,599
Speaker 4: mushroom coffees and alice mushroom or my hope is that

1272
01:12:56,720 --> 01:12:59,680
Speaker 4: we'll kind of have this trickle down effect to where

1273
01:12:59,680 --> 01:13:03,320
Speaker 4: events we'll get to the natural mushroom and there's more

1274
01:13:03,360 --> 01:13:07,080
Speaker 4: of an accepting culture both in wellness culture but also

1275
01:13:07,479 --> 01:13:11,120
Speaker 4: legally that this is medicine in the same way. And

1276
01:13:11,160 --> 01:13:13,719
Speaker 4: so it does excite me when I hear more people

1277
01:13:13,760 --> 01:13:17,479
Speaker 4: talking about like adaptogens and things like that, because it

1278
01:13:17,479 --> 01:13:20,200
Speaker 4: does seem like we're trending upward in the right way

1279
01:13:20,280 --> 01:13:24,160
Speaker 4: for this to be what we view as care, what

1280
01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:27,400
Speaker 4: we view as acceptable care. And so I think I'm

1281
01:13:27,520 --> 01:13:30,639
Speaker 4: very aware of in doing this podcast. There are things

1282
01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:32,639
Speaker 4: that we view as acceptable care and there are things

1283
01:13:32,640 --> 01:13:34,400
Speaker 4: that we don't and there are things that we don't

1284
01:13:34,439 --> 01:13:36,840
Speaker 4: understand and seem wacky inzany and I think the more

1285
01:13:37,160 --> 01:13:39,960
Speaker 4: we have experiences like this, I hope, even with this

1286
01:13:40,040 --> 01:13:43,400
Speaker 4: podcast episode, we can be a part of like ussuring

1287
01:13:43,479 --> 01:13:47,599
Speaker 4: in the full slate of what care looks like or

1288
01:13:47,720 --> 01:13:49,080
Speaker 4: mental health care looks.

1289
01:13:48,880 --> 01:13:53,680
Speaker 1: Like Anita one follow up question for you, because it

1290
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:56,120
Speaker 1: is clear like the level of intentionality and care that

1291
01:13:56,200 --> 01:13:58,240
Speaker 1: goes into this kind of retreat, right, like all of

1292
01:13:58,240 --> 01:14:01,280
Speaker 1: the pre screening and the questionnaire, Like that is the

1293
01:14:01,360 --> 01:14:04,280
Speaker 1: level of care that I hope for sisters who are

1294
01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:07,360
Speaker 1: interested in, you know, participating in this kind of a journey.

1295
01:14:07,680 --> 01:14:09,919
Speaker 1: Or everybody may not be able to come to Beckley,

1296
01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:14,120
Speaker 1: So how can people vet practitioners and facilitators who they

1297
01:14:14,160 --> 01:14:15,720
Speaker 1: may be interested in working with?

1298
01:14:16,720 --> 01:14:23,040
Speaker 2: There definitely are like networks and directories around therapist and facilitators,

1299
01:14:23,160 --> 01:14:28,120
Speaker 2: right And I always say the medicine is always good, right,

1300
01:14:28,280 --> 01:14:31,120
Speaker 2: people holding the medicine might not always be good. Some

1301
01:14:31,240 --> 01:14:34,600
Speaker 2: key questions you know that I would ask, say you

1302
01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:37,400
Speaker 2: find a directory and there's a list of people, and

1303
01:14:37,600 --> 01:14:40,360
Speaker 2: you don't know who to pick. One person you're connecting

1304
01:14:40,400 --> 01:14:42,920
Speaker 2: with them. A really big thing to ask focus is

1305
01:14:43,320 --> 01:14:46,640
Speaker 2: how long they've been facilitating and also who are they

1306
01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:51,160
Speaker 2: accountable to? Do they have mentors or their teachers? Do

1307
01:14:51,200 --> 01:14:54,000
Speaker 2: they have a council? Do they have some sort of

1308
01:14:54,760 --> 01:14:56,760
Speaker 2: code of ethics that they follow in the groups that

1309
01:14:56,840 --> 01:15:00,720
Speaker 2: reinforces that really important to know who holds you accountable.

1310
01:15:01,160 --> 01:15:04,479
Speaker 2: Another really important question and inquiry is around how do

1311
01:15:04,560 --> 01:15:11,439
Speaker 2: they find balance? How do they work through their emotional weather?

1312
01:15:12,479 --> 01:15:15,639
Speaker 2: Important to have inquiry into just like how are they

1313
01:15:15,640 --> 01:15:19,599
Speaker 2: taking care of themselves? It feels important. And then just

1314
01:15:19,680 --> 01:15:22,599
Speaker 2: backing up like how would you find a directory? Right?

1315
01:15:23,040 --> 01:15:30,240
Speaker 2: There's wonderful nodes around the psychedelic societies. So if you

1316
01:15:30,600 --> 01:15:34,799
Speaker 2: look up an organization called GPS, a Global Psychedelic Society,

1317
01:15:34,880 --> 01:15:38,720
Speaker 2: it's a wonderful site and organization and they have all

1318
01:15:38,760 --> 01:15:42,440
Speaker 2: over the world directories and lists of the psychedelic societies

1319
01:15:42,640 --> 01:15:45,720
Speaker 2: across the country and across the world. And those are

1320
01:15:45,760 --> 01:15:50,559
Speaker 2: really good places to connect in with psychedelic community. And

1321
01:15:51,520 --> 01:15:54,639
Speaker 2: I think that it's also really important and is something

1322
01:15:54,640 --> 01:15:56,160
Speaker 2: I want to bring up in all of this too,

1323
01:15:56,320 --> 01:16:03,479
Speaker 2: is just the financial commitment, right, and treatments and work

1324
01:16:03,520 --> 01:16:08,040
Speaker 2: with psychedelics aren't always retreat based, right. You might want

1325
01:16:08,080 --> 01:16:11,240
Speaker 2: to seek out a facilitator for just a one off session,

1326
01:16:11,320 --> 01:16:13,160
Speaker 2: or you want to do a series of three or

1327
01:16:13,160 --> 01:16:15,040
Speaker 2: something like that. Maybe you want to do it in group,

1328
01:16:15,080 --> 01:16:17,720
Speaker 2: maybe want to do it one on one, But the

1329
01:16:17,760 --> 01:16:21,040
Speaker 2: cost is important to think about, and that for Beckley,

1330
01:16:21,080 --> 01:16:25,760
Speaker 2: for the Black Women's Sanctuary, it's not just creating the

1331
01:16:25,800 --> 01:16:29,519
Speaker 2: container and having it be facilitated by black women and

1332
01:16:29,840 --> 01:16:34,200
Speaker 2: holding it, holding that container for black women, understanding aspects

1333
01:16:34,560 --> 01:16:38,880
Speaker 2: of the activities and protocol that need to be adapted

1334
01:16:38,920 --> 01:16:41,720
Speaker 2: to the needs you know that we might hold. But

1335
01:16:41,760 --> 01:16:46,679
Speaker 2: it's also about understanding the financial commitment that it takes

1336
01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:51,560
Speaker 2: to take a week off from work, travel to another country,

1337
01:16:52,080 --> 01:16:54,320
Speaker 2: and then maybe take a few days off before you

1338
01:16:54,400 --> 01:16:58,880
Speaker 2: go back to work. So our program also is because

1339
01:16:58,880 --> 01:17:03,240
Speaker 2: we do fundraising to support a fund to support the

1340
01:17:03,280 --> 01:17:05,400
Speaker 2: women who want to come up, and we need assistants

1341
01:17:05,880 --> 01:17:10,120
Speaker 2: in whatever way, and so finding practitioners who understand that

1342
01:17:11,280 --> 01:17:14,840
Speaker 2: the importance of that feels big too. And there are

1343
01:17:14,920 --> 01:17:22,200
Speaker 2: some funds around for supporting people, supporting folks with accessing

1344
01:17:22,720 --> 01:17:25,640
Speaker 2: their medicine journeys if they need help, whether it's transportation

1345
01:17:25,840 --> 01:17:30,280
Speaker 2: or childcare right or other barriers to the care. Again,

1346
01:17:30,400 --> 01:17:33,799
Speaker 2: all of it is very like underground network based because

1347
01:17:33,840 --> 01:17:37,360
Speaker 2: above ground things are just very nascent right now. So

1348
01:17:37,640 --> 01:17:41,479
Speaker 2: I live and work in New Mexico and my full

1349
01:17:41,479 --> 01:17:45,679
Speaker 2: time job is co directing the Psychedelic Mental Health Access Alliance,

1350
01:17:46,360 --> 01:17:50,439
Speaker 2: and our work is all about as psychedelic assystem therapy

1351
01:17:50,560 --> 01:17:53,559
Speaker 2: moves into the medical model, how do we ensure that

1352
01:17:53,600 --> 01:17:58,080
Speaker 2: we have the care models that work for marginalized communities?

1353
01:17:58,360 --> 01:18:01,040
Speaker 2: How do we ensure that public health can cover the

1354
01:18:01,120 --> 01:18:03,840
Speaker 2: cost and be reiverse? So how do we have a

1355
01:18:03,880 --> 01:18:07,600
Speaker 2: strong medicaid strategy? And how do we ensure that the

1356
01:18:07,680 --> 01:18:11,840
Speaker 2: workforce right is trained and representative of and knows how

1357
01:18:11,880 --> 01:18:15,640
Speaker 2: to support people in these spaces. And so it's a

1358
01:18:15,720 --> 01:18:18,800
Speaker 2: national strategy, and our first pilot is here in New

1359
01:18:18,840 --> 01:18:24,160
Speaker 2: Mexico looking at PTSD and working with women, survivors of

1360
01:18:24,200 --> 01:18:28,440
Speaker 2: sexual trauma, veterans and first responders and tribal and indigenous communities.

1361
01:18:29,000 --> 01:18:33,559
Speaker 2: And so knowing that your facilitator or the retreat you're

1362
01:18:33,600 --> 01:18:35,200
Speaker 2: going on, or the group you're going to go sit

1363
01:18:35,240 --> 01:18:38,320
Speaker 2: with has an understanding of how to hold the space

1364
01:18:39,200 --> 01:18:43,360
Speaker 2: for you is also super important because it's not just

1365
01:18:43,400 --> 01:18:46,680
Speaker 2: a one science fits all care model. You really have

1366
01:18:46,760 --> 01:18:49,720
Speaker 2: to be tuned into not only the individual needs, but

1367
01:18:49,800 --> 01:18:53,200
Speaker 2: like the societal group level needs, particularly when it's working

1368
01:18:53,200 --> 01:18:57,240
Speaker 2: with my limit. There's norms and assumptions that you need

1369
01:18:57,280 --> 01:19:02,280
Speaker 2: to be framing and considering as you are developing the container. Right,

1370
01:19:02,800 --> 01:19:04,519
Speaker 2: So I know I just would have a tangent, but

1371
01:19:05,040 --> 01:19:06,280
Speaker 2: it felt important to share.

1372
01:19:07,880 --> 01:19:11,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I appreciate all that context. Thank you. So

1373
01:19:11,040 --> 01:19:13,280
Speaker 1: at least one question for you as we wrap up,

1374
01:19:13,680 --> 01:19:15,839
Speaker 1: what's something that you feel like you learned about yourself

1375
01:19:15,880 --> 01:19:17,800
Speaker 1: during the retreat that you feel like you would have

1376
01:19:18,000 --> 01:19:20,439
Speaker 1: vehemently argued against going into it.

1377
01:19:21,120 --> 01:19:21,719
Speaker 3: I think I.

1378
01:19:21,640 --> 01:19:24,639
Speaker 4: Can have a bit of binary thinking, and I knew

1379
01:19:24,680 --> 01:19:27,920
Speaker 4: that going into the retreat, and I maybe was a

1380
01:19:27,960 --> 01:19:32,519
Speaker 4: bit stead fast in like my binary thinking. And something

1381
01:19:32,560 --> 01:19:38,640
Speaker 4: I learned about myself during the retreat was not but

1382
01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:42,880
Speaker 4: but and And I say that because in the first

1383
01:19:42,880 --> 01:19:47,000
Speaker 4: integration session we had the opportunity to draw what we

1384
01:19:47,080 --> 01:19:49,559
Speaker 4: experience on the retreat, and I, you know, said that

1385
01:19:49,680 --> 01:19:51,800
Speaker 4: I was laying down and when I looked to my right,

1386
01:19:51,840 --> 01:19:55,680
Speaker 4: I would kind of see like Jumanji, and not in

1387
01:19:55,680 --> 01:19:58,280
Speaker 4: a negative way, but in more of a situation. I

1388
01:19:58,320 --> 01:20:01,240
Speaker 4: had to figure out that was be a bit challenging

1389
01:20:01,280 --> 01:20:02,400
Speaker 4: but not necessarily scary.

1390
01:20:02,760 --> 01:20:03,240
Speaker 3: Then when I.

1391
01:20:03,200 --> 01:20:06,040
Speaker 4: Looked to my left, I would see candy Land, And

1392
01:20:06,160 --> 01:20:08,920
Speaker 4: I think sometimes I view life that way, like there

1393
01:20:09,439 --> 01:20:13,559
Speaker 4: is this kind of pleasure full, abundant part of life,

1394
01:20:13,840 --> 01:20:16,120
Speaker 4: and then there's a very kind of hard work part.

1395
01:20:15,960 --> 01:20:17,320
Speaker 3: Of life, and I enjoy both.

1396
01:20:17,600 --> 01:20:21,080
Speaker 4: But it was interesting when I actually drew what I drew,

1397
01:20:21,120 --> 01:20:24,720
Speaker 4: and when I was experiencing the medicine, I was in

1398
01:20:24,760 --> 01:20:26,400
Speaker 4: the center of that, and it wasn't like I was

1399
01:20:26,439 --> 01:20:28,000
Speaker 4: in one place and then I ran over to the

1400
01:20:28,040 --> 01:20:28,360
Speaker 4: other end.

1401
01:20:28,439 --> 01:20:30,120
Speaker 3: So when I drew it, what.

1402
01:20:30,400 --> 01:20:32,880
Speaker 4: That reflected to me, like Okay, I'm in the middle

1403
01:20:32,920 --> 01:20:35,880
Speaker 4: on this path and then both of these sides are

1404
01:20:36,160 --> 01:20:39,200
Speaker 4: around me, was that both of these things are happening

1405
01:20:39,360 --> 01:20:42,680
Speaker 4: at all times, and sometimes when I'm really in my

1406
01:20:42,720 --> 01:20:45,160
Speaker 4: emotions are reflecting on life, I view my seasons of

1407
01:20:45,200 --> 01:20:48,479
Speaker 4: life are like, Okay, this is my abundant season. This

1408
01:20:48,520 --> 01:20:50,640
Speaker 4: is where or even from a week to week day

1409
01:20:50,680 --> 01:20:52,400
Speaker 4: to day basis like this is where I'm going out,

1410
01:20:52,920 --> 01:20:55,240
Speaker 4: this is where great things happen to me, unexpected money,

1411
01:20:55,320 --> 01:20:57,720
Speaker 4: unexpected opportunities. And then the other side is like this

1412
01:20:57,800 --> 01:21:01,040
Speaker 4: is this grind season, like every day is so hard

1413
01:21:01,760 --> 01:21:05,360
Speaker 4: and I'm being like extra diligent, and I think coming

1414
01:21:05,400 --> 01:21:08,960
Speaker 4: out of the experience, I am better at holding both

1415
01:21:09,000 --> 01:21:11,280
Speaker 4: but also better at like all these things are happening

1416
01:21:11,880 --> 01:21:17,280
Speaker 4: at all times. I'm here on a Monday working, In

1417
01:21:17,320 --> 01:21:20,200
Speaker 4: a few hours, i'll be at the beach, so all

1418
01:21:20,240 --> 01:21:22,960
Speaker 4: of these seasons are kind of like happening at once.

1419
01:21:23,040 --> 01:21:25,760
Speaker 4: But I did, and you know, still just struggle to

1420
01:21:25,840 --> 01:21:28,479
Speaker 4: like exist in a very strict binary, like there's time

1421
01:21:28,520 --> 01:21:31,479
Speaker 4: for work and time for play, and now I've been

1422
01:21:31,520 --> 01:21:33,760
Speaker 4: able to hold there's kind of time for everything. You

1423
01:21:33,760 --> 01:21:36,120
Speaker 4: can't have everything all at once. But I don't think

1424
01:21:36,120 --> 01:21:38,800
Speaker 4: we need to define our lives in these very deep,

1425
01:21:38,920 --> 01:21:43,280
Speaker 4: serious are very like overwhelming with blessings seasons. It's both

1426
01:21:43,840 --> 01:21:47,479
Speaker 4: and sometimes I think you can overindulge in both the

1427
01:21:47,520 --> 01:21:50,679
Speaker 4: negative and positive feelings that come with each of those

1428
01:21:50,720 --> 01:21:53,360
Speaker 4: seasons if you're kind of focused on that binary.

1429
01:21:53,360 --> 01:21:53,840
Speaker 3: And so I was.

1430
01:21:53,920 --> 01:21:55,439
Speaker 4: It was really great to uncover that. I also think

1431
01:21:55,439 --> 01:21:58,960
Speaker 4: it's very Gemini coded. I'm a Gemini, like having these

1432
01:21:59,320 --> 01:22:03,799
Speaker 4: two straight sides of yourself, and so it was cool

1433
01:22:04,120 --> 01:22:06,320
Speaker 4: to meet myself in that way but also realize the

1434
01:22:06,400 --> 01:22:10,440
Speaker 4: resistance I had before to holding all of those at once.

1435
01:22:10,920 --> 01:22:13,280
Speaker 1: So honefa. It has been so great to hear more

1436
01:22:13,400 --> 01:22:16,040
Speaker 1: about the retreat and to hear more about how the

1437
01:22:16,120 --> 01:22:18,680
Speaker 1: ceremonies and things work. I'm sure that people will be

1438
01:22:18,800 --> 01:22:22,000
Speaker 1: very curious after they listen to this episode, so please

1439
01:22:22,040 --> 01:22:24,320
Speaker 1: share more about like where can people find out more

1440
01:22:24,320 --> 01:22:26,439
Speaker 1: information about the retreat and kind of keep up with

1441
01:22:26,479 --> 01:22:27,559
Speaker 1: the work that you're doing.

1442
01:22:28,840 --> 01:22:31,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, so if you go to Beckley Retreats and then

1443
01:22:31,360 --> 01:22:35,360
Speaker 2: inspect the Retreats dot com, we will have the waitlist

1444
01:22:35,840 --> 01:22:38,160
Speaker 2: for the next retreat, the Black Women's Retreat, which will

1445
01:22:38,200 --> 01:22:40,960
Speaker 2: be in next year, probably next spring or next summer,

1446
01:22:41,200 --> 01:22:43,479
Speaker 2: and you can follow my work fight up going to

1447
01:22:43,520 --> 01:22:47,720
Speaker 2: my website. I actually just revamped it so it's handsohonefa

1448
01:22:47,840 --> 01:22:50,120
Speaker 2: dot com and so it's like all the things that

1449
01:22:50,160 --> 01:22:52,639
Speaker 2: I have my hands on, all the different projects I'm

1450
01:22:52,680 --> 01:22:56,160
Speaker 2: working on. So I'm a musician as well, some a

1451
01:22:56,200 --> 01:22:58,640
Speaker 2: bunch of my music is there. You can get on

1452
01:22:58,640 --> 01:23:01,080
Speaker 2: the waitlist because I'm writing a book that will be

1453
01:23:01,120 --> 01:23:04,439
Speaker 2: coming out for my just before my fiftieth birthday next year,

1454
01:23:04,840 --> 01:23:08,360
Speaker 2: which is very exciting, and it's all about my adventures

1455
01:23:08,640 --> 01:23:12,160
Speaker 2: in travel but also in medicine and dream time story.

1456
01:23:12,240 --> 01:23:14,640
Speaker 2: So it's a really cool, cool luck coming out. But

1457
01:23:14,760 --> 01:23:18,599
Speaker 2: your Handsofinny for dot com and doctor Joy has been wonderful.

1458
01:23:18,640 --> 01:23:21,439
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me and at least

1459
01:23:21,479 --> 01:23:23,559
Speaker 2: this is such a treat to be on the side

1460
01:23:24,040 --> 01:23:28,080
Speaker 2: of things and hearing and exploring the integration process with you.

1461
01:23:28,439 --> 01:23:29,200
Speaker 2: Thank you both.

1462
01:23:29,280 --> 01:23:31,920
Speaker 1: I have really appreciated learning more about the experience and

1463
01:23:31,960 --> 01:23:34,040
Speaker 1: you're a personal experience, Atlise, so thank you both for

1464
01:23:34,160 --> 01:23:34,920
Speaker 1: joining me today.

1465
01:23:35,200 --> 01:23:35,559
Speaker 2: Thank you.

1466
01:23:39,040 --> 01:23:41,320
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that Honifa and Elise were able to

1467
01:23:41,400 --> 01:23:44,599
Speaker 1: join me for this insightful conversation to learn more about

1468
01:23:44,600 --> 01:23:47,599
Speaker 1: Honifa and the Beckley Retreat program. You should have visited

1469
01:23:47,600 --> 01:23:49,800
Speaker 1: the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com

1470
01:23:49,840 --> 01:23:53,000
Speaker 1: slash Session four seventy three, and don't forget to share

1471
01:23:53,040 --> 01:23:55,040
Speaker 1: this episode with two of your girls right now by

1472
01:23:55,080 --> 01:23:57,600
Speaker 1: texting them. Did you know that you could leave us

1473
01:23:57,640 --> 01:24:00,480
Speaker 1: a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for the piet,

1474
01:24:01,000 --> 01:24:03,559
Speaker 1: Drop us a message at Memo DOFM slash Therapy for

1475
01:24:03,640 --> 01:24:05,559
Speaker 1: Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind.

1476
01:24:06,000 --> 01:24:09,120
Speaker 1: We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're

1477
01:24:09,120 --> 01:24:11,679
Speaker 1: looking for a therapist in your area. Visit our therapist

1478
01:24:11,760 --> 01:24:16,000
Speaker 1: directory and Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't

1479
01:24:16,040 --> 01:24:18,519
Speaker 1: forget to follow us on Instagram at Therapy for Black

1480
01:24:18,560 --> 01:24:20,680
Speaker 1: Girls and come on over and join us in our

1481
01:24:20,760 --> 01:24:24,320
Speaker 1: Patreon community for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content, and

1482
01:24:24,439 --> 01:24:27,280
Speaker 1: much more. You can join us at community dot Therapy

1483
01:24:27,320 --> 01:24:31,599
Speaker 1: for blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis,

1484
01:24:31,640 --> 01:24:35,040
Speaker 1: Indechi Wu and Bria Moseley. Editing was done by Dennis

1485
01:24:35,040 --> 01:24:37,719
Speaker 1: and Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me again

1486
01:24:37,760 --> 01:24:40,760
Speaker 1: this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with

1487
01:24:40,800 --> 01:24:43,120
Speaker 1: you all real soon. Take good care,