WEBVTT - These Zombie Coins Just Won’t Die

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg Crypto Daily Bloomberg I heard podcast, and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Mike Reagan, a senior markets editor in Today for

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<v Speaker 1>Stacy Marine. It's Monday oct one. Hey, it's Ty Butler

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<v Speaker 1>from the Bloomberg Crypto podcast team. Happy Halloween. I posed

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<v Speaker 1>it as a question because it's kind of an oxymoron.

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<v Speaker 1>Are people actually happy on Halloween? Or are they scared?

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<v Speaker 1>After all, it is trick or treat, right, Well, you

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<v Speaker 1>can apply that to the crypto market when we talk

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<v Speaker 1>about the spookiness of zombie coins. They're not quite dead yet.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, there are twelve thousand of them, but it

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<v Speaker 1>is hard to label them as alive and well. In fact,

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<v Speaker 1>a recent analysis from the crypto data company Nomics found

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<v Speaker 1>that these coins have seized all trading activity in the

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<v Speaker 1>last month and are simply dormants. So what does it

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<v Speaker 1>mean when a market has so many inactive assets. Is

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<v Speaker 1>the state of zombie coins an indication that the crypto

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<v Speaker 1>industry isn't quite what it once was. What we do

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<v Speaker 1>know is that despite the fact that they're not new,

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<v Speaker 1>the increase in their numbers this year has zombie coins

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<v Speaker 1>making so much noise that Bloomberg reporter overcreef. We could

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<v Speaker 1>see some miracles happen. We could see some of them

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<v Speaker 1>come back to life. Will join Guest host Mike Reagan

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<v Speaker 1>would take some real heavy promotion from some of the

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<v Speaker 1>holders of these things to get them back out there

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<v Speaker 1>in the public and trading again. To discuss the apocalypse

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<v Speaker 1>happening in the crypto universe. Hioga, thanks for doing the show.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm glad to be here. My So, why don't we

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<v Speaker 1>just start by talking about what exactly is a zombie coin?

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<v Speaker 1>How do you define a zombie coin? Right, So it's scary.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a coin that hasn't traded for a month. And

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<v Speaker 1>so just this year long, we have over a twelve

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<v Speaker 1>thousand coins that haven't traded for at least a month.

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<v Speaker 1>So they are not quite dead, but they're not quite alive.

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<v Speaker 1>Like you said, Yeah, well, I was gonna ask, is

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<v Speaker 1>it possible for a cryptocurrency to ever actually die? They

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<v Speaker 1>always exist on the block chain as long as that

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<v Speaker 1>blockchains running. I suppose, right, that's exactly right. Basically, as

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<v Speaker 1>lone as there is somebody using your block chain, as lone,

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<v Speaker 1>as there is somebody holding a coin, technically, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>it could potentially still come to life again. And that

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<v Speaker 1>has happened in the past, where all of a sudden,

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<v Speaker 1>a project that everybody has thought, you know, pretty much

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<v Speaker 1>lost its momentum, all of a sudden got reignited. So

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<v Speaker 1>that has happened before, but it tends to be pretty rare,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, algo, we often hear about what called

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<v Speaker 1>liquidity pools or automated market makers, basically software that allows

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<v Speaker 1>for there always to be a buyer for everyone looking

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<v Speaker 1>to sell or a seller looking to buy. I'm guessing

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<v Speaker 1>these zombie coins are projects that do not have that

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<v Speaker 1>sort of infrastructure behind them. Is that is that a

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<v Speaker 1>safe bet? That's my bed as well. Namics didn't provide

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<v Speaker 1>any data on that, but I agree with you, um,

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<v Speaker 1>I think a lot of this sort of small projects

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<v Speaker 1>that never got to the point to have sort of

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<v Speaker 1>liquidity pools and so forth. So some of them just

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<v Speaker 1>maybe worthwhile, you know, they might be creating cool games

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<v Speaker 1>or social networks or something else interesting and they just

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<v Speaker 1>happened to launch at a bad time. And Olga, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>guessing many of these coins are not worth say the

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<v Speaker 1>twenty dollars that that bitcoin is worth. Are these some

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<v Speaker 1>of those coins that are worth a fraction of a penny.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think most of them? This list of over

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<v Speaker 1>twelve thousand coins doesn't even include those ones that trade

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<v Speaker 1>for for a fraction of with any There are thousands

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<v Speaker 1>more coins that are, like you said, trading for just

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<v Speaker 1>minis skulls amounts, and there are some people still selling

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<v Speaker 1>and buying those hoping that, you know, some sort of

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<v Speaker 1>a market move would make them some money off of

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<v Speaker 1>these coins. So that does not that those coins are

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<v Speaker 1>not even zombies yet, but potentially could be. So. If

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<v Speaker 1>I own a zombie coin, the problem is that there's

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<v Speaker 1>just no one to sell it to. I guess there's

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<v Speaker 1>there's no one who wants to buy it. Is that

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<v Speaker 1>generally the idea? Yeah, So it could be that nobody

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<v Speaker 1>wants to buy it, or maybe it's not even worth

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<v Speaker 1>my time to try and sell it because most networks,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, you have to pay transaction fees to sell

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<v Speaker 1>your coin to somebody else, for example, And if your

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<v Speaker 1>coin is worth so little that you might actually have

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<v Speaker 1>to pay more for this transaction feed, then it would

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<v Speaker 1>make no sense to even try to sell it. Right. Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>I was remembering a story from last year by our

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<v Speaker 1>colleague Joe Wisenthal, and he was messing around on pancake Swap,

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<v Speaker 1>which is one of those decentralized exchanges that people used

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<v Speaker 1>to trade coins that aren't listed on the major exchanges,

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<v Speaker 1>and he was amazed by how easy it was to

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<v Speaker 1>create a coin on that platform. Basically found some developers

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<v Speaker 1>who could make a coin for him in a in

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<v Speaker 1>a matter of minutes that basically copied the code from

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<v Speaker 1>an existing coin, and they changed a few parameters, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the number of tokens in circulation and that sort of thing,

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<v Speaker 1>and boom, he had a coin named after him created

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<v Speaker 1>in a matter of minutes. Is that part of the story.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think that it became so easy to create

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<v Speaker 1>new crypto tokens that people created way too many, whether

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<v Speaker 1>they were just messing around like Joe was or for

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<v Speaker 1>other reasons. Is that part of the story. That's definitely

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<v Speaker 1>part of the story, because essentially it's become very easy

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<v Speaker 1>to create your tokens and to list them for trading,

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<v Speaker 1>because they're all these decentralized exchanges like pincakes Swap, where

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<v Speaker 1>essentially anybody can list a token and start trading. Because

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<v Speaker 1>previously there were gatekeepers like centralized exchanges that looked at

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<v Speaker 1>different tokens and decided, okay, we're gonna list this one

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<v Speaker 1>and not this one. But now anybody could list to anything,

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<v Speaker 1>and so that definitely contributed to this explosion of tokens

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<v Speaker 1>that we've seen. How serious of a problem is this

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<v Speaker 1>for the crypto industry? Do you think we have twelve

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<v Speaker 1>thousand zombie tokens that no one wants to buy? Is

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<v Speaker 1>this a Is this a problem for the industry? You know,

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like any industry, you know, eighty percent of

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<v Speaker 1>new businesses that are launched to fail. You know, it's

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<v Speaker 1>it's the same with restaurants, except for with tokens. In

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of cases, you know, they did not have

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<v Speaker 1>physical offices. Maybe they had developers spread around the world

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<v Speaker 1>working on this project, and uh, you know it's the

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<v Speaker 1>costs much lower, the barriers to entry can be much

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<v Speaker 1>lower for some of this token projects than for projects

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<v Speaker 1>in other industries. So I feel like it's all part

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<v Speaker 1>of a natural process where you know, the week die,

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<v Speaker 1>especially in the bear market that we are going through

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<v Speaker 1>right now, where even you know, well known successful projects

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<v Speaker 1>have a lot of trouble getting funding and so they

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<v Speaker 1>have to close doors. And so we have essentially the

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<v Speaker 1>zombie tokens. It's just it's just a symptom of this

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<v Speaker 1>bear market, and I'm sure we'll have many more tokens appear,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, when when the market turns. And how are

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<v Speaker 1>traders and users of cryptocurrencies reacting to this, this issue

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<v Speaker 1>with the zombie coins. Have you heard anything? Is there

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<v Speaker 1>any scuttle bud in the market about this this problem?

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I think people generally know that crypto and

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<v Speaker 1>investing in crypto is very risky, and it's risky to

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<v Speaker 1>invent invest in some of the kind of major coins

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<v Speaker 1>like Bitcoin and ethereum, and it's especially risky to invest

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<v Speaker 1>in little known coins with uh, you know, very few

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<v Speaker 1>people trading them, And so I think people who made

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<v Speaker 1>bets on those kind of talk tokens hopefully knew the

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<v Speaker 1>risks they were taking. And I feel like a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of crypto is about speculation and people taking risks, and

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<v Speaker 1>when the risk taking doesn't pan out, it's just that's

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<v Speaker 1>just how it is. And I think that's the mindset

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<v Speaker 1>before and it's still remains so today and probably going

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<v Speaker 1>into the future as well. I wonder, orgay, is it

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<v Speaker 1>harmful for a blockchain project to have a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>zombie coins associated with it. You know, does it cost

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<v Speaker 1>them anything if these coins aren't actually transacting? Is there

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<v Speaker 1>an issue there for the actual blockchain projects themselves? You

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<v Speaker 1>know that that's a good question. I don't think there

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<v Speaker 1>is any cost for anybody until the tokens are moved

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<v Speaker 1>or sold, because essentially the cost would be the transaction

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<v Speaker 1>fee that you pay for the blockchain to process essentially

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<v Speaker 1>your transaction. And if this token is not changing hands,

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<v Speaker 1>then I don't think there are any fees. And do

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<v Speaker 1>you think there's anything that could revive some of these

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<v Speaker 1>twelve thousand zombie coins? You know what, I guess it

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<v Speaker 1>would take some real heavy promotion from some of the

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<v Speaker 1>holders of these things to get them back out there

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<v Speaker 1>in the public and trading again. Absolutely, we could see

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<v Speaker 1>some miracles happen. You could see some of them come

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<v Speaker 1>back to life. Perhaps, you know, if the market revives,

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<v Speaker 1>the overall crypto market revives, uh, some of these projects

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<v Speaker 1>maybe are able to get some some uh you know,

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<v Speaker 1>investors come and invest some money in them. They would

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<v Speaker 1>be able to perhaps have a marketing budget again, they

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<v Speaker 1>would be able to pay developers and in tokens or

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<v Speaker 1>with actual money or other cryptocurrencies. And if some of

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<v Speaker 1>these projects do take off in the future, if say,

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<v Speaker 1>some some game becomes successful, you know, their fortunes could

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<v Speaker 1>be reversed. So, Oga, let's pretend I'm a crypto entrepreneur

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<v Speaker 1>and I want to create a new coin. What do

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<v Speaker 1>I need to do? Do you think to to prevent

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<v Speaker 1>this zombie coin fate for for my new coin? The

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<v Speaker 1>biggest challenge for any project is to essentially get users

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<v Speaker 1>and to to get holders of the tokens. So a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of projects do so called air drops where they

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<v Speaker 1>just distribute their coins to a variety of people for

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<v Speaker 1>either doing some particular task or even just for free

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<v Speaker 1>for registering, because they want to have a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>this initial support, uh and continuing support. That's sort of

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<v Speaker 1>the biggest challenge. You know, how do you get noticed

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<v Speaker 1>because there are thousands of coins out there? You know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's it's a it's definitely challenged. Coming up more with

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg reporter Oga Karif on how zombie coins are creeping

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<v Speaker 1>their way through the crypto market. They are not being

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<v Speaker 1>yeah yeah, um for all these people that bought one

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<v Speaker 1>of these coins and now they're suddenly stuck with it.

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<v Speaker 1>They can't sell it. What kind of impact do you

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<v Speaker 1>think that has on the crypto market itself, You know,

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<v Speaker 1>I sort of I'd like to think that people who

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<v Speaker 1>made the bets on this unknown coins they knew they

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<v Speaker 1>were taking big risks that could not might not pay.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think, uh, sort of speculators like that will

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<v Speaker 1>will keep on making bets. But but I think there

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<v Speaker 1>might have been some people who might not have thought

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<v Speaker 1>that their investments were as risky as uncertain and they

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<v Speaker 1>would definitely get discouraged. I think we are seeing a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of retail investors staying on the sidelines during bear

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<v Speaker 1>markets because because of this very reason, but inevitably when

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<v Speaker 1>when the bullmarket starts, they come back again and in

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<v Speaker 1>greater numbers. So I think, you know, that's what I

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<v Speaker 1>would expect in the future as well well, Olga. I

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<v Speaker 1>wonder what we know about the history of some of

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<v Speaker 1>these zombie coins, where any of them actually once sort

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<v Speaker 1>of high fires in the crypto market, where any of

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<v Speaker 1>them have potential or coins that people had actually heard of,

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<v Speaker 1>or were they mostly just obscure coins that never really

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<v Speaker 1>traded a lot to begin with. You know, they were

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<v Speaker 1>mostly very obscure, so some of them might have had

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<v Speaker 1>like a website and say a few hundred fullers and Twitter,

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<v Speaker 1>and then they died and the website went down, and

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<v Speaker 1>then they stopped posting on Twitter and that was the

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<v Speaker 1>end of it. I would say the majority is sort

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<v Speaker 1>of in this category, So even after their website goes down,

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<v Speaker 1>there's there's life after Twitter and a website for that's right.

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<v Speaker 1>And I was showing many of these were on the

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<v Speaker 1>Ethereum blockchain. Is that a safe bet? Do you think? Yes? Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>because that's exactly right. It's just so easy to launch

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<v Speaker 1>a new coin on on the Ethereum network that uh,

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<v Speaker 1>that's the that's where the zombies are most prevalent, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>and all go. Obviously, the big story this year for

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<v Speaker 1>Ethereum was what they call the merge, where it changed

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<v Speaker 1>from proof of work to a proof of steak system

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<v Speaker 1>where val validators have to put some crypto assets at

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<v Speaker 1>stake to to be uh, part of the network. Does

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<v Speaker 1>that play into this at all? Does? Does that switch?

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think make it more promising that some of

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<v Speaker 1>these zombies will come back to life? You know? So

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<v Speaker 1>the merge essentially reduced Ethereum's power consumption, but didn't do

0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:59.400
<v Speaker 1>anything else in terms of the user experience, but it's

0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:04.840
<v Speaker 1>a stepping stone to additional changes expected next year that

0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:09.600
<v Speaker 1>could potentially make the Ethereum ecosystem sort of cheaper and

0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:14.520
<v Speaker 1>faster to post transactions into. That's very important in terms

0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:19.240
<v Speaker 1>of attracting new projects to this ecosystem, and perhaps that

0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:23.120
<v Speaker 1>means that will see more new coins launching here, you know,

0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:28.600
<v Speaker 1>continuously launching here going forward, because essentially this is making

0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:35.320
<v Speaker 1>ethereum Um increasingly more competitive for anything else out there,

0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:39.400
<v Speaker 1>So we'll probably see more very good coins launching here,

0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:43.400
<v Speaker 1>as well as more zombies coming up, so that the

0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:45.680
<v Speaker 1>zombies could be with us for a while, I imagine,

0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:51.680
<v Speaker 1>is the bottom line, right. Well, Olga, that was fascinating.

0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:54.080
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much, and you can find more of

0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:58.040
<v Speaker 1>AGA's reporting on the Bloomberg terminal, on Bloomberg dot com

0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:01.680
<v Speaker 1>and on Twitter. She's at book Caarif. Olga, thank you

0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:14.720
<v Speaker 1>so much. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. On the

0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:18.080
<v Speaker 1>next episode of Bloomberg Crypto, we're now are year into

0:17:18.119 --> 0:17:21.920
<v Speaker 1>a huge experiment in digital currencies. Nope, this isn't about

0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:24.320
<v Speaker 1>all Salvador and bitcoin. We're gonna be talking about one

0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:29.280
<v Speaker 1>of the world's largest economies, Nigeria and its experiments with

0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:36.879
<v Speaker 1>digital cash. This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast from

0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:39.920
<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg and I Heart Radio. For more shows from I

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<v Speaker 1>Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

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0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:50.040
<v Speaker 1>questions or suggestions for the show to Crypto at Bloomberg

0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:53.160
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0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:58.000
<v Speaker 1>The supervising producer of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky very Galina.

0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:02.080
<v Speaker 1>Our senior producer is Janet Albin. Our producers are Mohammed

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<v Speaker 1>Faruk and Sharon Barriro. Our associate producers are Ty Butler

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<v Speaker 1>and Moses on Desta wonder At is our engineer. Original

0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:15.160
<v Speaker 1>music by Leo Sidron. I'm Stacy Mariashmal. We'll be back

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<v Speaker 1>tomorrow