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Speaker 1: Warning. This episode contains references to extreme violence and sexual assault.

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Speaker 1: Please use discretion when listening.

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Speaker 2: Jamine Josuel Cornel Jonio Castillo.

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Speaker 1: So that's Coronell Jose Antonio Castillo. He's retired now, but

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Speaker 1: he spent his entire career in the salvador In Army.

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Speaker 1: I met him for coffee outside my hotel in San Salvador.

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Speaker 1: He has short, neatly combed hair, blue eyes, and smiles

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Speaker 1: like he's running for office. In fact, at various points

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Speaker 1: throughout our interview, I thought he might be flirting with me.

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Speaker 3: In Cantal de Miel lucien Siendo, he.

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Speaker 1: Was stationed in my family's hometown, San Miguel, and he

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Speaker 1: tells me that the most beautiful women are from there.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to talk to Coronel Castillo to get the

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Speaker 1: military perspective on the war, and he is not shy

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Speaker 1: about sharing it. For him, the whole thing was very

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Speaker 1: cut and dry.

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Speaker 2: Ohiamos a lapublica.

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Speaker 3: Deracia.

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Speaker 1: You had to choose. You were either with democracy or

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Speaker 1: with the communists. Coronel Castillo has always been extremely patriotic.

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Speaker 1: When he was in his teens, he idolized a well

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Speaker 1: known military leader, a man named Domino monte Rosa, the

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Speaker 1: head of the most infamous group of Salvadoran soldiers, the

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Speaker 1: Atla Cado.

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Speaker 2: Battalion, Giofiul Mirador Deli, the Rasco Militar came Cal Coronel

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Speaker 2: Domingo mont Rosa.

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Speaker 3: Vlade Cornel.

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Speaker 1: I'll be honest. Throughout her entire interview, I felt really uneasy.

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Speaker 1: Coronel Castillo is charming, smiles easily, but knowing that he

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Speaker 1: was stationed in my family's hometown, I can't help but

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Speaker 1: wonder what he did during the war. His hero the

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Speaker 1: Mengo monter Rosa and the Atla Coado Battalion are well

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Speaker 1: known for the human rights abuses they committed. But it

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Speaker 1: seems like the Coronel might be uneasy with me too.

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Speaker 1: Before starting the interview, he asked me a bunch of

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Speaker 1: questions about where I work and what the angle of

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Speaker 1: my interview would be.

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Speaker 2: Ist Sea.

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Speaker 3: Quinteistoria.

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Speaker 1: Whenever you hear a story, you're going to hear it

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Speaker 1: differently depending on who's telling it, he tells me. Coronel

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Speaker 1: Castillo is worried because he feels like a lot of

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Speaker 1: the storytelling about the war is one sided, that there

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Speaker 1: hasn't been enough attention paid to the violence committed by

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Speaker 1: the f m l N, and this feeling that the

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Speaker 1: stories told about the conflict are somehow incomplete extends to

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Speaker 1: one of the most controversial moments from the war, the

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Speaker 1: story of a town called El mosotekel.

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Speaker 3: See.

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Speaker 1: Elmosote is a small town high in the Salvadorn Mountains.

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Speaker 1: It's in a district called Mora San where some of

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Speaker 1: the worst fighting during the war happened. For many years,

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Speaker 1: the town of Elmosote laid abandoned, but after the war

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Speaker 1: a crew of forensic specialists came from around the world

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Speaker 1: to investigate what had happened to this small town, and

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Speaker 1: they discovered bodies, hundreds of bodies from what would later

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Speaker 1: be called the El Mosote MASSACREO.

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Speaker 3: Dontulm savra com.

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Speaker 1: Coronel Castile's theory is that El Mosote was an fml

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Speaker 1: and burial ground, a police where the guerrillas went to

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Speaker 1: bury their dead. When I ask him what happened to

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Speaker 1: the townspeople, he tells me that in December nineteen eighty one,

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Speaker 1: there was a big battle that happened in Elmosote.

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Speaker 2: El informe the classifics d the combati in al in

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Speaker 2: Frina albitia, momento, contract and combatido.

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Speaker 1: These theories that Coronel Castillo has, they're nothing new. They

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Speaker 1: go way back to when the story of Elmsoto was

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Speaker 1: first reported, and none of these theories are true. They've

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Speaker 1: all been disproved by the UN Truth Commission and forensic evidence.

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Speaker 1: Looking back, I wish that I had pushed back on

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Speaker 1: some of what he was saying contradicted his prepared talking points,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't. I just let him say his peace,

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Speaker 1: thanked him for his time, and left. It takes a

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Speaker 1: lot of courage to tell someone in a position of

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Speaker 1: power you're wrong, you're lying, and in that moment, I

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Speaker 1: didn't have it. The truth of what happened at Enmosote

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Speaker 1: is now part of the official history of El Salvador.

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Speaker 1: It's been verified by experts and witnesses. But for many

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Speaker 1: years the massacre went widely ignored and disputed, and even

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Speaker 1: now there are people like Goronel Gastillo who refused to

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Speaker 1: believe it happened. And it's important because how we remember

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Speaker 1: this moment. The stories we tell and the stories we

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Speaker 1: ignore embody the country's struggle with its past and its present.

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Speaker 1: I'm Jasmine Romero and this is Sacred Scandal, Nation of

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Speaker 1: Saints episode seven and Mosote, We'll be right back. The

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Speaker 1: town of Inmosote is about two hours away from my

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Speaker 1: parents house in San Miuel. The drive is almost entirely uphill,

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Speaker 1: and it gets really rough in spots. My dad's truck

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Speaker 1: was rattling so hard it felt like it was going

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Speaker 1: to just shatter into a million pieces. Okay, so we're

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Speaker 1: in in the area of now, but we're on a

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Speaker 1: really really narrow dirt road.

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Speaker 3: Oh god, oh god.

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Speaker 1: We end up in a paved plaza in the center

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Speaker 1: of a small town. We're welcomed by the man that

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Speaker 1: I'm here to see.

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Speaker 4: It's the Claros Tolmente, did they say, pa.

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Speaker 1: Lionelle Claros, the president of the Victims Association of Lionel,

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Speaker 1: is here to lead us on a tour of the town.

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Speaker 1: It's lovely here, with a spectacular view of the lush,

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Speaker 1: green countryside. My mom keeps freaking out at all the

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Speaker 1: beautiful orchids that grow wild here. Like most salvador In towns,

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Speaker 1: it's centered around a church, like Lesia de Santa Catarina.

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Speaker 1: Leonelle leads me and my parents through the plaza to

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Speaker 1: where that church used to be. There's a memorial where

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Speaker 1: it once stood. Is the is the monument.

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Speaker 5: The forty three years ago, in this very spot, the

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Speaker 5: entire town of Elmosote was massacred.

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Speaker 1: This is based on the findings of the UN Truth Commission.

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Speaker 1: On December eleventh of nineteen eighty one, in the early

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Speaker 1: morning light, townspeople were ordered from their homes and gathered

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Speaker 1: into the town square. Soldiers from the Atla Katal battalion,

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Speaker 1: led by the famed Goronelle Domingo mont Rosa, told the

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Speaker 1: people that they'd be given food. The soldiers then separated

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Speaker 1: people into groups men, women, and children. The men were

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Speaker 1: marched into the sacristy of the church. It's a small

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Speaker 1: room where the priests prepare before leading mass. There the

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Speaker 1: soldiers tortured them for information before spraying them with bullets.

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Speaker 1: Beside the church, there's a small building called Ilgnvento, the convent.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't really a convent. It was mostly used to

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Speaker 1: house visiting priests. When they were passing through the area,

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Speaker 1: that's where the soldiers brought the children. They two were

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Speaker 1: killed with gunfire. Finally, across the street, the women were

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Speaker 1: lined up in the yard of a house they were

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Speaker 1: systematically raped, and then the soldiers pushed them into the

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Speaker 1: house and killed them two. The soldiers then lit the

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Speaker 1: town on fire and watched it burn. After the war,

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Speaker 1: the bodies of the townspeople were brought here to where

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Speaker 1: I'm standing now and buried together. In nineteen ninety one,

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Speaker 1: a simple memorial was built in their honor. It's a

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Speaker 1: big brick wall with black marble squares laid across it

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Speaker 1: in a grid. Each squareless ten names.

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Speaker 4: Lapare when a pamo.

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Speaker 1: Some of the squares are all just one last name,

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Speaker 1: entire family lines extinguished. Maya Rufina Amaya is one of

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Speaker 1: the very few survivors of that day, and she's buried

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Speaker 1: here too. Her testimony is one of the reasons that

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Speaker 1: the world knows the story of what happened here. Rufina

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Speaker 1: lived in almost with her husband and four children. On

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Speaker 1: the day of the massacre, she was lined up along

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Speaker 1: with all the other women in town. She was the

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Speaker 1: last woman in line, ye yea.

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Speaker 4: Ye.

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Speaker 1: When a soldier wasn't looking, she managed to escape and

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Speaker 1: hide under a bush. She laid there for hours, frozen,

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Speaker 1: listening as the soldiers massacred everyone in town, including her

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Speaker 1: four children. As she lay there, she made a deal

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Speaker 1: with God. She vowed that if she was spared, she

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Speaker 1: would dedicate her life to telling the story of what

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Speaker 1: had happened here. And she did.

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Speaker 6: Pourkup and she told it to tour groups and two

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Speaker 6: journalists Quadri Brazos, and.

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Speaker 1: Across the decades, again and again she told her story.

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Speaker 1: She was found eight days after the massacre by f

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Speaker 1: M L and soldiers. The interviewed her and began to

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Speaker 1: broadcast the news of the massacre on their clandestine radio

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Speaker 1: station radios.

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Speaker 3: Radiomos.

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Speaker 1: They also invited journalists from the New York Times and

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Speaker 1: the Washington Post into the area so they could see

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Speaker 1: for themselves and report on the massacre. Here's former New

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Speaker 1: York Times reporter Raymond Bonner reading his notes after interviewing Rufina.

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Speaker 7: The earth was littered with spent sixteen automatic rifle cartridges.

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Speaker 7: The house was shambles. Mama, they're killing me. They've killed

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Speaker 7: my sister. They're going to kill me, screamed the nine

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Speaker 7: year old son of Ruffina, Amaya. She was one who

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Speaker 7: had managed to escape. This is Amaya, recalled. The soldiers

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Speaker 7: had no fury, It just observed the lieutenant's orders, they

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Speaker 7: were cold. It wasn't a battle.

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Speaker 1: Bonner and The New York Times reported that seven hundred

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Speaker 1: and thirty three people had been massacred in Elmosote. The

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Speaker 1: Salvadoran government vehemently denied that the story was true. Then

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Speaker 1: Salvadoran President Josina claimed that the whole story was fabricated,

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Speaker 1: just fml N propaganda, that the numbers of the dead

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Speaker 1: were exaggerated. The US, upon hearing reports of a massacre,

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Speaker 1: sent two embassy officials up to the area to see

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Speaker 1: if the story was true, but the Salvadoran military refused

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Speaker 1: to escort those officials into Almosote. They basically dumped these

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Speaker 1: two guys out on the side of the road in

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Speaker 1: the middle of a war zone and said, if you

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Speaker 1: want to investigate, be my guest. So the officials came

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Speaker 1: back to the embassy and told their boss something happened,

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Speaker 1: but we don't know exactly what. And that's what the

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Speaker 1: ambassador told the White House. Shortly after the massacre, the

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Speaker 1: US Ambassador Dean Hinton was asked if the reports were true.

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Speaker 1: His response quote, I certainly cannot confirm such reports, nor

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Speaker 1: do I have any reason to believe that they are true.

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Speaker 1: The day after Elmo soThe was reported in The New

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Speaker 1: York Times, the Reagan administration certified to Congress that the

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Speaker 1: Salvadoran government had quote made progress on human rights. They too,

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Speaker 1: called the story propaganda.

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Speaker 8: A determined propaganda campaign is sought to mislead many in

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Speaker 8: the United States as to the true nature of the

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Speaker 8: conflict in El Salvador. Very simply, guerrillas are attempting to

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Speaker 8: impose a Marxist Leninist dictatorship on the people of El

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Speaker 8: Salvador as part of a larger imperialistic plan.

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Speaker 1: Raymond Bonner, the New York Times reporter who interviewed Rufina Amaya,

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Speaker 1: was removed from his beat reporting on Central America and

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Speaker 1: eventually left the paper. The Wall Street Journal ran an

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Speaker 1: article lambasting The Times, meaning that they'd fallen for communist propaganda.

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Speaker 1: With both governments denying or downplaying the massacre, the story

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Speaker 1: of Enmosote would go basically unheard for another ten years.

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Speaker 1: When the war finally ended in nineteen ninety two, the

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Speaker 1: UN sent a commission team to investigate. Finally, the bodies

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Speaker 1: were found surrounded by hundreds of shells of US made ammunition,

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Speaker 1: some of the best forensic specialists around the world came

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Speaker 1: to this tiny mountain town to help uncover what had

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Speaker 1: been hidden for so long, but it was ten years

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Speaker 1: too late. By then, the theories about FMLN burial grounds

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Speaker 1: and shootouts with the town had long spread, and even

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Speaker 1: with all the forensic evidence saying otherwise, obviously, those stories

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Speaker 1: stuck to this day. The number of dead is uncertain

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Speaker 1: because bodies were continually exhumed for years, but including the

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Speaker 1: surrounding areas, the best estimates we have are two hundred

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Speaker 1: and twenty men, two hundred women, and five hundred and

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Speaker 1: forty one children. It's a devastating number, especially when you

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Speaker 1: consider that two hundred and forty eight of those children

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Speaker 1: were under six years old. But Gronlicastillo, the military officer

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Speaker 1: we heard from earlier, had an answer for why there

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Speaker 1: were so many children's bodies at Enmosolte. His theory is

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Speaker 1: that the children in those graves were child soldiers.

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Speaker 3: I shown an alle.

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Speaker 1: Samuelitos. It's the name that right wing Salvadorans give to

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Speaker 1: child soldiers. I don't buy this on its face, it

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Speaker 1: makes no sense. According to the forensic evidence, hundreds of

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Speaker 1: the dead and Elmosote were babies and toddlers, including newborns.

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Speaker 1: But here's the thing. There's a kernel of truth in

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Speaker 1: the Coronel's theory. There were child soldiers working with the FMLN.

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Speaker 1: But their stories are much more complicated than the one

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Speaker 1: that the coronelle is trying to tell me. And after

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Speaker 1: the break we'll hear one.

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Speaker 4: Chest senor.

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Speaker 1: Not far from almost on the hot asphalt of a

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Speaker 1: public playground, I met a man named Jose.

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Speaker 9: Hasen.

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Speaker 1: Jose is not his real name. He would only meet

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Speaker 1: me in a public park and he wanted to stay anonymous.

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Speaker 1: He joined the f mL N when he was twelve.

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Speaker 9: Generally Mintererella also there he doos in Pleno Condricto.

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Speaker 1: Jose grew up the son of a Campecino in a

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Speaker 1: rural area in this province, Morassan, the area where the

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Speaker 1: leftists were gaining a lot of ground.

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Speaker 9: Rimero Nucleos, Diamo Clandestino Jorgania here Mile but heso Jo.

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Speaker 1: He says that it's father joined one of the groups

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Speaker 1: that would eventually become part of the f mLAN Porque Cio.

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Speaker 9: The a group of Lavaltata for la Falta, Portundia economic

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Speaker 9: for la Falta.

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Speaker 1: He felt like there was no future for his family

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Speaker 1: or children, no chance at an education or to better

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Speaker 1: their situation if society didn't change. Jose's mother wanted no

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Speaker 1: part in any of it. She worried for her children,

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Speaker 1: and she tried to flee the town with Jose as

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Speaker 1: a child. She was killed by the armed forces.

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Speaker 9: Whende if we ever car carrios albara and maestra endo

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Speaker 9: pelo implementary posta the Perla de Masiel.

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Speaker 1: Josett thinks that because of his father's connection with the leftists,

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Speaker 1: the army killed his mother, along with his two aunts

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Speaker 1: and his grandparents, but it's hard to say for sure

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Speaker 1: because around that time the army seemed to just be

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Speaker 1: lumping everyone in the area together, counting everyone in Morasan

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Speaker 1: Province as a part of the leftists. It was part

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Speaker 1: of a military tactic that's now called draining the Sea

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Speaker 1: to hurt the Gerrias by cutting off their means of

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Speaker 1: support and intimidate anyone who might consider helping them. Draining

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Speaker 1: the Sea is associated with the mass murder of civilian populations.

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Speaker 9: Last depart in La Sona nor.

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Speaker 3: Aod heron Kera guerriero.

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Speaker 8: Er.

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Speaker 1: It was an invasion, he tells me, with the rest

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Speaker 1: of his family, Dad, Jose felt like his only option

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Speaker 1: was to join his father and join the fighterouke.

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Speaker 9: Canno, can you have a fast organizaui loco? Since aver

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Speaker 9: loka significava nagerra mucho meno.

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Speaker 1: He was twelve years old, he didn't really understand what

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Speaker 1: joining a war even meant. He went through some basic

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Speaker 1: military training along with classes on how to read and write,

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Speaker 1: and then went into the conflict, but he insists that

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Speaker 1: he wasn't recruited.

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Speaker 3: Yes, documento documenta.

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Speaker 9: Couto no no homilia ytonsa.

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Speaker 1: They killed their families, he says, we didn't have another option.

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Speaker 1: It's estimated that of the eighty five hundred total FMLN soldiers,

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Speaker 1: two thousand of them were under eighteen. That's what the

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Speaker 1: UN classifies as a child soldier. Jose's story is just

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Speaker 1: one of them, but it's a much more complicated story

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Speaker 1: than the one Coronel Castillo is telling me about Samuelitos.

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Speaker 1: When I first talked to Coronel Castillo, he told me

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Speaker 1: that the war was a matter of choice. You were

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Speaker 1: either with democracy or with the communists. Maybe that was

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Speaker 1: true for him, but Jose didn't have a choice. His

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Speaker 1: entire family was killed.

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Speaker 3: Goron L.

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Speaker 1: Castile claims that the storytelling about the war is one sided.

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Speaker 1: There's some truth to that. Even in this podcast, the

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Speaker 1: focus has mainly been on the atrocities committed by the state,

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Speaker 1: but the leftists definitely had their hands dirty too. They

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Speaker 1: did use child soldiers. Even before the war. The FMLN

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Speaker 1: did their fair share of kidnapping, torturing and murdering, but

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Speaker 1: in the UN Truth Commission's report from after the war,

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Speaker 1: they estimated that the FMLN was responsible for five percent

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Speaker 1: of the atrocities committed during the war. The military accounted

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Speaker 1: for eighty five The last ten percent is unknown. The

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Speaker 1: difference in all this is power, the power to choose

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Speaker 1: whether or not to fight, the power to tell your

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Speaker 1: own story and have it believed. The Salvador and oligarchy

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Speaker 1: and government got to tell their version of the story.

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Speaker 1: In return, they got billions of dollars in US military aid.

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Speaker 1: Rufina Amaya told her story. In return, she was called

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Speaker 1: a liar.

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Speaker 8: But I mean honoi, yeah, you gonna do OK.

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Speaker 10: Gave him.

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Speaker 1: It's not easy for me, she says, But there's no

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Speaker 1: one else to tell it. People say that it's a lie,

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Speaker 1: that it didn't happen. Those of us who lived it,

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Speaker 1: we know the truth. Trufina Maya spent her life testifying

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Speaker 1: about what happened in her small mountain town. Her testimony

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Speaker 1: was the backbone for one of the earliest investigations into

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Speaker 1: the case, led by the human rights organization tutell. It's

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Speaker 1: an organization that was co founded by Archbishop Oscar Romero.

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Speaker 1: Tutella Lal's report on Elmosote continues to be one of

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Speaker 1: the most extensive and thorough accounts. They led the charge

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Speaker 1: on trying to get justice for the victims and their families.

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Speaker 1: Grafina Amaya died in two thousand and seven of a

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Speaker 1: stroke when she was only sixty four. She died waiting

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Speaker 1: for justice to be done. The truth of what happened

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Speaker 1: here lives on in the stories of the survivors and

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Speaker 1: their families still here, telling the same story they've told

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Speaker 1: since the beginning. On the next episode, peace finally comes

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Speaker 1: to El Salvador, but it comes at a price.

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Speaker 10: Sex Jesuit priests were brutally executed and San Salvador last week.

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Speaker 10: Their deaths have triggered a heated congressional debate on continuation

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Speaker 10: of military aid to that country.

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Speaker 1: If you want to know more, I highly recommend Mark

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Speaker 1: Danner's book The Massacre at Enmosote. Sacred Scandal. Nation of

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Speaker 1: Saints is a production of AJA Podcasts in partnership with

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Speaker 1: Iheart's Michaultura podcast network and is hosted and written by

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Speaker 1: me Jasmine Romero, produced by Jazmine Romero Sofia palitza Car

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Speaker 1: with help from Jorge Just and Alo Rosibeles. Research and

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Speaker 1: reporting by Jasmine Romero, Edited by Cyda Kevelo, Jorge Just

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Speaker 1: and Rose Red. Nation of Saints was recorded in New

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Speaker 1: York City at the Relic Room with engineering by Sam Bear.

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Speaker 1: Mixing and sound designed by Paciquinones. Original music by Golden Mines,

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Speaker 1: Darko and Aeme based on Patrick Hart's original composition. Fact

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Speaker 1: checking by Edendira Aquino Ayala. Executive producers are Carman geratol

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Speaker 1: isaac Lee, Rose Red and Nando Villa. Our executive producers

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Speaker 1: at iHeart are Giselle Bansis and Arlene Santana. Sacred Scandal

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Speaker 1: was created by Melanie Bartley and Baulovadro's Special thanks to

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Speaker 1: Cynthia Glavic, Joanne Gross and the Ursuline Sisters of Cleveland.

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Speaker 1: The recordings of Dorothy Casel in this episode were provided

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Speaker 1: courtesy of the Ursuline Sisters of Cleveland Archives. For more podcasts,

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Speaker 1: go to the iHeartRadio app or wherever you listen to

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Speaker 1: your favorite podcasts.