1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: Happy Saturday everybody. For today's classic, we are going back 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: to the medieval period with our story of Christian mystic 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:13,039 Speaker 1: Marjorie Kemp. Marjorie Kemp also wrote one of the first 4 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: autobiographies in English, which details not only her religious life, 5 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 1: but also what everyday life was like for middle class 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:23,319 Speaker 1: people during the Middle Ages. Also in this podcast, I 7 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: make an embarrassing error. I say that Santiago to Campo 8 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: Stella is the home of the tomb of St. Peter. 9 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 1: It is not. It is the reported burial place of St. James. 10 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,840 Speaker 1: I just misspoke the absolutely wrong name. So other than that, 11 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:46,319 Speaker 1: enjoy Welcome to stuff you missed in history class from 12 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: how Stuff Works dot Com. Hi, and welcome to the podcast. 13 00:00:55,920 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: I am Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly Fry And 14 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: today we're talking about one of those cool elements of 15 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: history that I think if you had never been interested 16 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: in history before and you heard the story, you would 17 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: suddenly become a fan of all history, Like you would 18 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: just want to dig three books for more of this 19 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: kind of stuff. Yes, well, and it's the thing I 20 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 1: learned about studying literature, So it's one of those things 21 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: that intersects a lot of different pieces. We're going to 22 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 1: talk today about a woman who lived in the Middle Ages, 23 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: so the late fourteenth and early into the mid fifteenth century. 24 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: Her name was Marjorie Kemp and seems like pretty ordinary woman. 25 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: She was a wife and a mother of fourteen children, 26 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: which was a pretty normal number of children at that period. 27 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 1: In spite of this apparently typical side of her, she 28 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:47,320 Speaker 1: also had, especially in the latter part of her life, 29 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: some pretty intense spiritual visions. Yes, she's often cited as 30 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: a mystic. Now, yes, Um. During the Middle Ages, men 31 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: definitely ran the church. They were in charge. They were 32 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: the people who were the priests and the clerics and 33 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: the ones who made all of the decisions. Um. And 34 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: then there were women that also had these very deeply 35 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: spiritual lives and would talk about having visions and uh 36 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: and having really intense religious experiences. Most of them were 37 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: reclusives also, um. They were called anchor rights or anchoresses 38 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,799 Speaker 1: who lived either within the church or sometimes literally within 39 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: a wall of the church, so they would have a tiny, 40 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,959 Speaker 1: tiny cell tinier than the room that we record podcasts 41 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: in that they would spend their entire lives in. And 42 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: those were some of these women UM had their own 43 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: followers and sort of that there would be sort of 44 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: like a cult of people that followed their teachings. UM. 45 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: Marjorie Camp was a very spiritual person, but she traveled 46 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: with her husband and it was not an anchor, right, 47 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: not at all. She went on h pilgrimage and traveled 48 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: all over Um for a period several years. So that 49 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:03,239 Speaker 1: kind of sets her apart from some of the other 50 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: mystics who were happening in the same era. At that point, 51 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 1: when she began traveling, she had kind of established that 52 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: she was dedicated to her religion and to the visions 53 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: that she was having, and to following um religious doctrine. 54 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 1: And so she eventually and we will get to this 55 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: in more depth, you know, had this claim to chase life. 56 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: But she was traveling with a man who was her husband, 57 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 1: which confused some people who had fathered fourteen children. Yeah, 58 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: they had a whole brood of kids together, um, and 59 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: so that got confusing, right. Some of her children she 60 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: did have after she started having visions, but before she 61 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: and her husband stopped the sexual part of their relationships. 62 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: So uh, some of the visions that she had were 63 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: while she was pregnant, and we're of Jesus telling her 64 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: it's going to be okay, I will arrange for your 65 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: child to be taken care of while you go on 66 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: pilgrimage for me. And what's really interesting is that she's 67 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: often credit it. It is, uh, the creator of the 68 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: first autobiography in English for sure. Yeah. Uh. And she 69 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: dictated it because she was not literate herself. Um. So, yeah, 70 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: it's the oldest known autobiography and in English, and it 71 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: isn't written in chronological order. Uh. And it isn't a 72 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: full account of her life. She leaves out big chunks 73 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: and she really just focuses on her spiritual journey. Uh. 74 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: And she focused on it in sort of in the 75 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: order that she remembered things, right, So scholars have kind 76 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: of gone back and pieced together a timeline based on 77 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: her references to holidays and world events that we know 78 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: when they happen. So when we talk about sort of 79 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: the chronology of her life, that's been pieced together based 80 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: on Yeah, that is not her laying out in her 81 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: autobiography like I was born here and she's kind of 82 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: all over the place. And she did dictate it sometime 83 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: after most of the events she talks about. So it 84 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: is all you know, it's subject to human recollection. Uh, 85 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: But to start at the beginning. Yes, So she was 86 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: born around seventy three to her father, who was John Brunham. 87 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 1: It may also have been Burnham. We're not quite sure. 88 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: We've seen both ways, Yes, we've it's written down in 89 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,159 Speaker 1: more than one spelling. And he was the mayor of 90 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: King's Lynn, which was then called Bishop's Lynn, which is 91 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: on just in case anybody needs a quick geography checkpoint, 92 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: it is on the side of England towards the Netherlands, 93 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:30,119 Speaker 1: in a little inlet. Yes, it was a coastal town, 94 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:32,239 Speaker 1: so there was a lot of money to be made 95 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: in the world of merchant work, so things that had 96 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 1: to do with buying and selling and shipping. It was 97 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 1: a lot of what was going on. Her father also 98 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 1: served as one of the town's two representatives to Parliament 99 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: six times, as well as a lot of other positions. 100 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: He was a very notable and successful person and Marjorie 101 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:53,720 Speaker 1: was very proud of that fact. She was a very 102 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 1: proud person, which is a theme that will come up 103 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: in her life later. Yeah, I mean she was a 104 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: child of a wealthy pillar of the community. Yes, um, 105 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: not not a mystery why she would be proud of that. 106 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 1: She did get married roughly twenty, which is pretty late 107 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 1: in life for most girls at that time, to John Kemp, 108 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: who was also the son of a successful merchant. Yes, 109 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: and he was a merchant to not really as successful 110 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 1: as his father, but they did well enough. Um. Her 111 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: first pregnancy was really hard. She was very sick for 112 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:34,919 Speaker 1: a lot of it, and then after the baby was born, 113 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: she had a period of more than a year of 114 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: what she herself describes as madness, you know, things that 115 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: we would recognize as being signs of being mentally ill today. 116 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 1: So she talked about having hallucinations, being just very verbally 117 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 1: abusive to her family, having to be restrained to keep 118 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: from injuring herself. Um. A lot of people today sort 119 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 1: of say that she she must have had some kind 120 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: of postpartum psychosis going on during this period. Um. And 121 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: then one day she had a vision while she was 122 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: very sick, and during this period she had a vision 123 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: of Jesus uh. And during this vision, Jesus asked her 124 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: why she had forsaken him when he had never forsaken her. Uh. 125 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: And she was sort of like, well, that's a good question, 126 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: and then started to recover from this illness that she 127 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: had had. Um it was not a light switch, though. 128 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: That was not the thing that led her to then 129 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: become a very devoted religious person. She continued to sort 130 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: of live life as she had been before. She described 131 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: herself as pretty proud and stubborn. Um. She went into 132 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: some of the more mundane jobs that women had in 133 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: in the Middle Ages. She worked for a brewer as 134 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: a while for a while, and as a miller. Um. 135 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: And both of those businesses failed. Um it wasn't great 136 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: at those things yet, well she was really She made 137 00:07:55,280 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 1: good beer, but she couldn't like repeatedly make a good 138 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: beer to sell it like she she'd make a good 139 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: batch and then the next one would be terrible. And uh, 140 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: the the mill had problems with the horse, like one 141 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: of the team of horses just refused to turn the 142 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: mill and it. So both of those businesses failed, and 143 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: that started to become a more humbling experience. Um It's 144 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: still though, was a period of years before before she 145 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: started on a just very deeply religious path. Um. She 146 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 1: started to become more and more preoccupied with what heaven 147 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: was like and how in her mind, Heaven was this 148 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 1: amazing place and Earth was pretty terrible, so let's figure 149 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: out how to get to Heaven faster. Um. She started 150 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: spending more and more time in church. Um. She gave 151 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 1: up meat and alcohol and eventually sex as penance for 152 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 1: previous sins uh. And she also did a thing that 153 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: was kind of a common pract us during the Middle Ages, 154 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,079 Speaker 1: which was the mortification of the flesh. And she did 155 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: this by wearing a hair shirt. And if you don't 156 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:08,839 Speaker 1: know what a hairshirt is, it's a very coarse or 157 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: prickly shirt that you wear under your clothing so that 158 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: it physically irritates your skin all day long, constantly. Um. 159 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: And she actually that she started wearing that before she 160 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,959 Speaker 1: stopped having sex with her husband, because she wore it 161 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: while she was pregnant at one point, which sounds like torture. 162 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: It does sound horrible. I mean, I've never had a child, 163 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: but knowing from the descriptions of other people what being 164 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: pregnant is, like, yeah, that can be very uncomfortable and 165 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: it's exhausting already and sometimes you already feel like prickly 166 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 1: and rashi anyway, so to add a hair shirt on 167 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: top of that it's horrible. Yes. And then she had 168 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 1: a couple of years that were kind of the easy 169 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: part of her right where she was fasting, she was 170 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 1: you know, acts of contrition. They weren't terribly difficult. But 171 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: then she had three years of temptations, yes, including when 172 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 1: a man tried to sit do was her away from 173 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: her husband. Um. So she had had these years where 174 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: it was sort of like she was trying very hard 175 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 1: to be a very quote good religious person and that 176 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:12,959 Speaker 1: was going really well. It's easy for her to fast, 177 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: it was easy for her to do these things. Then 178 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: all these temptations started, including a man who tried to 179 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: seduce her, and when she agreed to seduce him or 180 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: to to be seduced by him, he spurned her. UM. 181 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 1: So she did not actually go through with it, but 182 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: the fact that in her brain she had given in 183 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: she thought was gal sin. She could mentally sin, and 184 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: she felt that that was just as bad. Um. And 185 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: so it was after that that she really recommitted herself too, 186 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: staying on the path that she felt like was going 187 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: to lead her into heaven and to being a better 188 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: person and to getting rid of the sins of her past. UM. 189 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: Once she got to about the age of forty, she 190 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: started having some just really intense, dramatic visions that felt 191 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: she described them as real, like real events that were 192 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: happening that she was participating in. Um So, she had 193 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 1: visions where she would hear God or Jesus speaking to her. 194 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 1: But then she also had these visions that were like 195 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 1: she was physically present at events that were described in 196 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 1: the Bible. Um So, she had when where she was 197 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: present at the birth of the Virgin Mary and took 198 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 1: care of the Virgin Mary as a child. Um and 199 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 1: then the birth of Jesus so and the crucifixion, like 200 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: very notable events. She's sort of had visions that were 201 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: physically real to her in which she participated in all 202 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: of these events. And it's interesting to me just that 203 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 1: a lot of those are in a maternal way. It's 204 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: taking care of these religious figures and being part of, 205 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: you know, their birth and that young developmental part of 206 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: their life cycle. When we'll talk about it a little 207 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 1: bit more later, But in most of her writing she 208 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: never mentions her kids. The fourteen children she actually had 209 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: are pretty tertiary the whole narrative. We only really hear 210 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: about one of them, and that is one who she 211 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: describes as being physically or spiritually troubled, and she felt 212 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: that her intervention had helped to save him. And that's 213 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 1: really the sort of the one story of one of 214 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: her children that we hear about. Um. So yeah, she 215 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: she talks a lot about having visions of women who 216 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:23,319 Speaker 1: were president in the Bible and having relationships with them, 217 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: and then she has other visions that are more like conversations, um, 218 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: with Jesus or with God. So, for example, she had 219 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: a vision of a conversation with Jesus in which he 220 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: told her to stop wearing that hair shirt because he 221 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 1: was going to give her sort of a spiritual hair 222 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: shirt for her her heart rather than physically wearing a 223 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: hair shirt. He also commanded her to continue to not 224 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: eat meat and to only wear white, which was the 225 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 1: color of consecrated virgins. Um. That was actually a huge 226 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: deal at the time, the fact that she was going 227 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: around all in white but she was not actually a virgin. Yeah, 228 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: lots of hatred and derision people. Um. And then in 229 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: the same series of conversations, she felt commanded by God 230 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: to go on pilgrimage to Rome, Jerusalem, and Santiago. And 231 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: so after a few years she did that. It took 232 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: a while to actually get started, uh that. You know, 233 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: they had various affairs to settle and other stuff that 234 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: they had to prepare for. But about two years after 235 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: feeling commanded by God to go on pilgrimage, she started 236 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: her pilgrimage and that was in fourteen. Yeah, and she 237 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: in the midst of all of this, she was praying 238 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 1: pretty constantly to end her sexual relationship with her husband 239 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: because she felt that she was displeasing God with their 240 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 1: inordinate love. Yeah, they had a very active physical life together, 241 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: clearly because they had kids. Um. But yeah, the way 242 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: she described that, there's was not a relationship of quote 243 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: having sex just for procreation. Like they had a very 244 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 1: physical relationship. They were very attracted to each other. It's 245 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: a very passionate it's very passionate thing. And you know, 246 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: this whole thing happens from her point of view. But 247 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: she describes her husband as a willing participant in the 248 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: end of their sexual relationship eventually. At first it takes 249 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: it's some years of prayer, Yeah, some years as what 250 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: of what she sort of describes as kind of a 251 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 1: divine intervention, like he would he would want to have sex, 252 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: and then he would be stricken with terror, and then 253 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: they would not And she had been praying for about 254 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: three years when they had an argument one day while 255 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: they were traveling by the side of the road, um 256 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: and and an argument in which he was like, so 257 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: if if somebody came and said, like with the sword, 258 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: if somebody came with a sword and said you need 259 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: to have sex right now or I'm going to murder you, 260 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: could we have sex? And she was like, no, I 261 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: would either you die. And he was like, Okay, seriously, 262 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: if if it's going to be time for this, what 263 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: I want you to do is to start stop your 264 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: fast that you're doing on Fridays and have have a 265 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: meal with me on Friday and pay off all of 266 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,239 Speaker 1: my debts. Yeah. It was a bit of a negotiations, 267 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: a totally negotiation, and she she was kind of reluctant 268 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: to do this at first because she had been praying 269 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: really hard to stop their relationship, but she had also 270 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: felt commanded by God to fast every Friday, so she 271 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: prayed about that. The words she got back was Okay, 272 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: if if this is cool, you can stop having your 273 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 1: fast on Friday and and stop your relationship. With your 274 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: husband and then that will all work out, even out, 275 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: It will even out. And so on June she and 276 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: her husband stopped being married and they can or they 277 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: stopped having sex, but they continued to be married until 278 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: he died. Yeah, which is interesting. I mean that is 279 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: at that point twenty years into the marriage. So I 280 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: think when when you're retelling it or even hearing it 281 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: or reading in a history book, there is that weird 282 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: you know, Wow, that would really stink to marry someone 283 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: and have them say they didn't want to be intimate 284 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: with you, And it seems like it's much closer to 285 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 1: the beginning, but they had to marry for quite a while. 286 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 1: At that point they had UM and uh, you know, 287 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: we can't ever fully know everything that went down there 288 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: and like what words were truly I mean she recounted, 289 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: you know, from memory, but I do just wonder at 290 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: what that conversation must have really been like. And you know, 291 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: if there was some degree to which he wanted to 292 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: give in just to make her happy, because they seemed 293 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: like they had genuine affinity for one another. Yeah, they 294 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: seemed to have a very close relationship that that was 295 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: based on love and trust and support. Um, I had 296 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: actually because I had read her autobiography many years ago, 297 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: and I had kind of forgotten that part of it, 298 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: and in my head he had become this kind of 299 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: like reluctant participant in his wife's craziness. Um, and that 300 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: was sort of that was just me, uh, superimposing, because 301 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: that is not how it reads at all. Uh. And 302 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 1: she talks about them having a very fond relationship. Um, 303 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: they did have things that they disagreed about and things 304 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: that they had to come to some kind of consensus over, 305 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: like stopping their sexual relationship. Uh, but that he did. 306 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: He also he also wanted to be a more spiritual 307 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: person and he also wanted to live a good life. 308 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,360 Speaker 1: So it wasn't just her kind of dragging him along 309 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: with her down this path of of pilgrimage and abstinence. 310 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,919 Speaker 1: And this was again kind of early on in the 311 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: pilgrimage phase. Uh. Yes, that was in fourteen thirteen, and 312 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: that winter they stayed inn in Venice as sort of 313 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: a stopping point before going to the Holy Land. I 314 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: think it's interesting that a little before that, at the 315 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: very beginning, she um visited holy sites closer to home. 316 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: Over that point, No, Rich and Canterbury, um, and she 317 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 1: met with a lot of other religious figures yes of 318 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: the day, both official and unofficial religious figures. She before 319 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 1: they left England, she met the Bishop of Lincoln and 320 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: the Archbishop of Canterbury, and then she also met Julian 321 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 1: of Norwich. And that's one of the anchors is that 322 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:16,919 Speaker 1: we talked about earlier who lived walled up in the 323 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: wall of a church. And I had read one account 324 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: that suggested that she kind of asked Julian to verify 325 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: her visions a little bit where I mean, so she 326 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: has I think we think of anybody that is claiming 327 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 1: to have all these visions, it's very easy to go 328 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: say you're crazy. But she recognized that that was a possibility, 329 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: and so she turned to another religious figure that she really, 330 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 1: you know, believed and trusted and trusted to say, am 331 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: I insane? Is this crazy? I really think this is happening. 332 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: And Julian was like, no, I'm pretty sure you're having 333 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,360 Speaker 1: the visions. They're valid. She had similar conversations with priests 334 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 1: sometimes and and there were there were priests and other 335 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: religious figures who um, she cried a lot. She was 336 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: sort of visited by religious weeping uh, and would just 337 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: have this sort of uncontrollable crying during religious events, either 338 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,199 Speaker 1: while she was having visions or while she was praying. 339 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: And there were priests who thought that she was doing 340 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 1: this just to get attention, um, and they would do 341 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 1: things like say, okay, you need to come come to 342 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 1: my cloister and do your prayer there with nobody watching you. 343 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: And then they would just kind of secretly watch from 344 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: around the corner and find that she was still weeping. 345 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: And they would find that as evidence that she was 346 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: being genuine and what she was describing and not making 347 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 1: it up. It was the hair shirt in her heart, 348 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: it was the hair shirt probably making her cry. Yes, 349 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: So lots of travels around England to religious sites there. 350 00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 1: In fourteen thirteen a stop in Venice, and then that 351 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: spring they sailed from Venice to Jerusalem and she spent 352 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: about a year visiting holy sites in Jerusalem before returning 353 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: home again via Rome. H And while in Rome one 354 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: of the most sort of notable and interesting events of 355 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 1: her religious life happened, which is that she got married 356 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 1: to God. Yeah. Um in a vision. Uh. She got 357 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 1: married to God and the Holy Ghost, the Virgin Mary. 358 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: All of the apostles and lots of saints were all 359 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: witnesses to this. Um. She actually already before this had 360 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,239 Speaker 1: had sort of a mystical marriage to Jesus and had 361 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 1: a wedding ring that was her wedding ring to Jesus 362 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: that she would wear uh. And so this became sort 363 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: of this multidimensional like marriage to multiple aspects of the Godhead. Yes, 364 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: while simultaneously still married to an actual human right, even 365 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 1: though their relationship was non sexual and kind of more 366 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: one of French up at that point. Yes, so yes, 367 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: she she at that point considered herself to be married 368 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: married to God Um. Before they returned back to England, 369 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:14,920 Speaker 1: she went to Assisi and visited holy sites in Assisi uh. 370 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 1: And they departed from Rome in at Easter time of 371 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:23,199 Speaker 1: fourteen fifteen and they got back to Norwich in May. Um. 372 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: She had one more sort of leg of her pilgrimage 373 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 1: after that, and that was from July ish around July seven, 374 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: fourteen seventeen, she took a seven day voyage oversea um 375 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 1: to Santiago to Compostella in Spain, and that is where 376 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: the tomb of St. Peter is and that's also a 377 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: pilgrimage that people continue to make Overland today, Like that's 378 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 1: a thing that people continue to do. Um. And that 379 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: was another you know, meeting other religious figures there, having 380 00:21:55,080 --> 00:22:00,680 Speaker 1: spiritual experiences there. And they returned from Santiago in August 381 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: of fourteen seventeen, and that was sort of the period 382 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: of her religious wandering, right, those were her her travels. 383 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 1: It was the travels of devotion. Yes, it was not 384 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: at all the end of her uh, the spiritual side 385 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 1: of her life or the difficulties she experienced though, because 386 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: once she got back home to England she started to 387 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 1: be put on trial for heresy. Yeah, I mean she was, 388 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: as we mentioned earlier, she was wearing white, which was 389 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 1: reserved for consecrated virgins. She was claiming that she had 390 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:39,120 Speaker 1: this marriage to God and Jesus. She you know, there 391 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,400 Speaker 1: were just a lot of things that conflicted with society's norms. 392 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: Even very religious elements of society were like, you're doing 393 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: this not the right way, This isn't this isn't how 394 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,440 Speaker 1: you worship. She was threatening to sort of the religious 395 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:57,199 Speaker 1: orthodoxy of ways. Yeah, she was definitely outside the normal 396 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,439 Speaker 1: realm of what you did if you had dedicated your 397 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 1: life to your devotion. So you know, people can perceive 398 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 1: that a lot of times as heretical was very threatening. 399 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 1: And that was definitely the case with Marjorie. So she 400 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 1: was put on trial more than one time and more 401 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,680 Speaker 1: than one city. She spent some time in prison, either 402 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: in the actual jail or in the home of one 403 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,880 Speaker 1: of the jailers. UM. So she was imprisoned at various times. 404 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 1: Um she was not ever found guilty, which is I 405 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 1: think good because she would have been burned at the stake. 406 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: And yeah, and it I mean it does sort of 407 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 1: give her a little bit of, um, historical credibility to say, like, no, 408 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: people actually believe this was just part of her dedication. 409 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,199 Speaker 1: You know, she proved to them that that's what it was. 410 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: She wasn't just trying to be rebellious or you know, 411 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: she wasn't trying to fly in the face of convention. 412 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: These were her beliefs and she really felt strongly that 413 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 1: she was getting these directives from God. She was able 414 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,479 Speaker 1: to make a case for that basically, and and and 415 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,359 Speaker 1: not in the end to be ruled to be someone 416 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: who was making it up or was doing something that 417 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: was going to be contradictory to what the church was teaching. 418 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 1: So she was back home in Lynn again by fourteen eighteen, 419 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,120 Speaker 1: and she stayed there for years. She had spent five 420 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: years traveling and then she just sort of she continued 421 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 1: to live her life in Lynn, continued to have visual 422 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:29,199 Speaker 1: and and physical vision experiences. She continued to try to 423 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 1: teach people and try to talk to people. Um. She 424 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 1: did not get along with one of the nearby friars 425 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: who objected to the way that she was weeping all 426 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,679 Speaker 1: the time, and so that caused a fair amount of tension. Really, 427 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 1: a lot of the hardest criticism that she got she 428 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: got at home. She got less of it when she 429 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,439 Speaker 1: was traveling and more of it at home. And she 430 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 1: continued to live in Lynn and her until well even after. 431 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 1: But her husband passed away in four um and it 432 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: was after that that she took the last journey that 433 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: she went on. Yeah. Uh, and her son also died 434 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: that year, the only the only child of hers that 435 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,880 Speaker 1: we did we really hear anything about in her tails. 436 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,439 Speaker 1: We didn't have no idea about the other thirteen. And 437 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 1: her husband, she said, you know, had been ill, he 438 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,639 Speaker 1: had been senile, and she had been taking care of 439 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,120 Speaker 1: him for quite some time at that point. But yeah, 440 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: so she had one more journey to make, uh and 441 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: she was about sixty at this time, So it was 442 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: four four and she was traveling to Prussia by ship 443 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: to escort her widow daughter in law home, and then 444 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: they also toured religious sites on land on the return journey. 445 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:43,919 Speaker 1: But she was sixty and it was a little bit 446 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: rougher at that point. She didn't quite have the zeal 447 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 1: of youth that she had on her previous pilgrimage activities, 448 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: and not quite a spry because she used sixties quite 449 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,959 Speaker 1: old at that time that point. Yet especially to have 450 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 1: you know, it's the physical toil of of fourteen children 451 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 1: is a lot and there were a lot of women 452 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: in that age you and their later pregnancies things got 453 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:10,439 Speaker 1: harder and harder and often didn't survive childbirth. So we 454 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,919 Speaker 1: don't know when she died, but it was some point 455 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: after the age of sixty. Um, there are a few 456 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,160 Speaker 1: I mean, this is so long ago now that it's 457 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 1: really hard to pinpoint dates. A lot of records to 458 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,719 Speaker 1: refer to. No, so there are records of someone with 459 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: names similar to hers doing various things around the town. 460 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: And it's one of those where okay, maybe they're talking 461 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: about Marjorie, but we're not really sure. So that's basically 462 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: her life. Um, but she's one of those people who 463 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: her life goes there's more to it than just the 464 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 1: dates of what all the things happened. It's a very 465 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 1: important figure in the landscape of religion. Yeah, we've talked 466 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: a lot about sort of the themes of her life already. 467 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: There was just there was a lot of prayer and 468 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 1: a lot of confession, and a lot of teaching of 469 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: gospel to other people. And she was also really beloved 470 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: and reviled depending on who you talked to. Uh. There 471 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,439 Speaker 1: were religious leaders who would ask for her to come 472 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 1: visit them so that they could meet her and talk 473 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 1: to her, and then there were other people who would 474 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: try to prosecute her for heresy. Yeah. I mean she 475 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: was sort of just having to prove the validity of 476 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 1: her faith and devotion constantly. Yes, Um, so yeah, she she, 477 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,199 Speaker 1: depending on who you spoke to, was either just an 478 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: amazing religious figure or or a heretic um. When you 479 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: look at her autobiography, and we'll talk about the autobiography 480 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 1: a little bit more in just a minute, but when 481 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: you look at it, she traveled a lot that was 482 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 1: a lot of travel for a medieval person to do. 483 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: She did a lot of travel going, and she went 484 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 1: a long way. She talks about that almost none. Um. 485 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,679 Speaker 1: She when she says barely anything about her children, she 486 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: says barely anything about the the travel aspects of her travel. 487 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 1: Pretty much all of her autobiography is focus on the 488 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 1: things that seemed spiritually important. Um. And the rest of 489 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: it is just not even really acknowledged. Yeah, it's all, 490 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 1: like I said earlier, secondary and tertiary at best. It's 491 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 1: just if it fills in some portion of the recounting 492 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: of the spiritual journey, then it gets included, and otherwise 493 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: it doesn't make the cut. The kid said it had 494 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: right out. Um. There are many similarities though, between her 495 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: and some other mystics. Yes, to put her put it 496 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,679 Speaker 1: in context, she was sort of happening. Her life was 497 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: happening within the greater picture of this whole tradition of 498 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 1: medieval mysticism. Um. And one of the mystics that she 499 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: had the most in common with is St. Bridget of Sweden, 500 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: and St. Bridget of Sweden is somebody who she knew about. 501 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: She had had St. Bridget's book read to her. She 502 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: talked about how couple times times yes, she had had 503 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: She talked a lot about sermons that she heard read 504 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: and hearing people read books to her, because she was 505 00:28:55,800 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: not literate herself, but she had her a lot and 506 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: had described to her a lot about St. Bridget's life. 507 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 1: They were both married to men before they took on 508 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: a spiritual wedding valve to the Godhead. Um. They both 509 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 1: lived chasely for some part of their married life. They 510 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: both wore hair shirts as an act of penance, uh 511 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: fasted went on pilgrimages. Um. The biggest difference, in addition 512 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: to being a little bit earlier in the period St. Bridge's, 513 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: was St. Bridget was a lot more well off than Marjorie. 514 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: So Marjorie would have been like solidly middle class uh 515 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: and St Bridget was more like the nobility. But otherwise 516 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: they had a lot in common, and she had a 517 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 1: lot in common with a lot of the other women 518 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: mystics of that time. Um. So she wasn't just she 519 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: wasn't the only person. No, she was definitely not like 520 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: a lone alone mystic by any means. I mean, her 521 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: tail bears a lot of resemblance, not just to Bridget, 522 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,719 Speaker 1: but to other mystics of the time. There were many women, 523 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: and the women are always considered mystics because they had 524 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: this sort of different relationship with God in the eyes 525 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: of the culture of the time. You know, the male 526 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 1: heads of church were certainly religious and devoted, but there 527 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: was an administrative element to it. It was you know, 528 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: as Tracy mentioned earlier, it was about you know, the 529 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 1: power of their positions and and that was all a 530 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: big factor. Where as the women it really was almost 531 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 1: a more visceral. They were very connected, like they had 532 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 1: physical visions where their body would be affected in different 533 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: ways by their um there moments that they shared in 534 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: these visions, uh with God. So it's a little bit 535 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 1: it's a different thing, and it's a reason that there 536 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: were many women experiencing these same things that they were 537 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: kind of lumped in this group of women mystics. Why 538 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: there were several some of them we may talk about. 539 00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 1: It's some very future because I would not want to 540 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: cluster but to women mystics together and the podcast. But 541 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: that's why the phrase women mystics happens, that they are 542 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: kind of portioned off as having a different relationship with 543 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: God than the men that were leaders in the church. Yes, 544 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 1: so today because because you know, we live in a 545 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 1: world that likes to find explanations for things that don't 546 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 1: necessarily have explanations. Um, there are a lot of theories 547 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: today about various illnesses that she may have had that 548 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: may explain the visions that she had. And so if 549 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 1: you if you go digging through through journals, you will 550 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: find people who argue that she had epilepsy or postpartum psychosis, 551 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: or hysteria, or schizuo effective disorder or bipolar disorder or 552 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: Jerusalem syndrome. It's sort of a long laundry list of 553 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: psychological explanations for the things that she wrote about in 554 00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: her life. I sort of feel like, regardless of your 555 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: own religious leaning is or whether you are a member 556 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 1: of any particular faith, the fact that she, as a 557 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 1: medieval woman, was able to take charge of her life 558 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: to the extent that she was and travel as much 559 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 1: as she was and become as notable as she did, 560 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 1: that is remarkable. Like, even apart from any feeling that 561 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: you may have about church or religion or any of that, 562 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: just incredible life. Like I said at the top of 563 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: the podcast. As a historical figure, her story is so engaging. Yeah, 564 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: and when you juxtapose it against sort of you know, 565 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: what we know about society that at that time and 566 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 1: how society even works now, it's She's incredible and she's 567 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: really so noteworthy in so many different ways. Well, and 568 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: the other incredible thing is her autobiography. Yeah. Um, we've 569 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 1: talked about how it's the oldest known autobiography in English. Um. 570 00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: She dictated it as two different books, thest time around 571 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: in fourteen thirty six and then the second time in 572 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 1: four Um, so about twenty years after the first time 573 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 1: she had a vision is when she got with somebody 574 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: to write all this down. Um. There's kind of a 575 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: long and wandering story of how the writing down happened, 576 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 1: And much like a lot of what's in her life, 577 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 1: there's sort of a vein of and and then something 578 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: lucky happened that made it actually become a real thing. Um. 579 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 1: It's possible that the first person to write the book 580 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,200 Speaker 1: down was her son, who we talked about, like the 581 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: one child that we talked about. This is sort of 582 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence linking her description of the person who wrote 583 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: the book down to what her son's life was like. 584 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 1: They had both gone to Germany and gotten married and 585 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 1: come back with a wife and then later died. Um. 586 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: That's not super strong evidence. But there are people who 587 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 1: think the first person she told the book too was 588 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:01,239 Speaker 1: her son. I don't. I don't know that, but that's 589 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 1: a theory. It is circumstantial. At the same time, like 590 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: we mentioned before, there wasn't that much travel on that 591 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:13,359 Speaker 1: scope happening necessarily at that time, so it is it's circumstantial, 592 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 1: but it's also not insignificant that there are those matchups. 593 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 1: So also, whoever it was who did the first writing 594 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: down did not do a good job um, and did 595 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 1: not write very legibly and did not use grammar that 596 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: was either correct English for the time, um, because it 597 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:34,920 Speaker 1: is kind of a Middle English if you if you 598 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: read a non updated version, it's very tricky to read 599 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,759 Speaker 1: as a modern reader. But it was not even consistent 600 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: within that spelling. It was like not consistent English or 601 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 1: consistent German spelling and grammar. Really did not do a 602 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: good job. And so she she was not dictating to 603 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,760 Speaker 1: a scholar, No, no, it was it was she whoever 604 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 1: whoever she was talking to had more to receive than 605 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 1: she did, but not enough to do a really great job. 606 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:04,720 Speaker 1: So she gave it to a priest who she trusted 607 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,879 Speaker 1: later on, and the priest was like, I can't read this. 608 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:12,800 Speaker 1: I can't. Yeah, he gave it back to her. Uh. 609 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 1: He felt bad about that later changed his mind. Um 610 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: had trouble reading it because of failing vision, and she 611 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 1: was like, I really have faith that God will help 612 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: you do this. And in the end he did do 613 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: the rewrite of it with her Um, and they kind 614 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 1: of revised as they went. They revised as they went, 615 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,879 Speaker 1: they added some more stuff in Um. And that leads 616 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 1: people to to sort of ask who should we think 617 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,920 Speaker 1: of as the writer of this. Was it Marjorie, was 618 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 1: it the first person who wrote it down? Was it 619 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: the priest who rewrote it Um. One thing that I 620 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,800 Speaker 1: think puts a lot of the answer of that into 621 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 1: Marjorie is that she talks about that the priest read 622 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: her what he had written down with her in the 623 00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:00,440 Speaker 1: room and she okayed it. So even though she was 624 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 1: not physically the one holding the writing utensil, she did 625 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,439 Speaker 1: sort of she approved what had been written down after 626 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 1: it was written down. She was like the verbal editor 627 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 1: at that point. There are there's also a lot of 628 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: scholarly work that compares various pieces of the book, like 629 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 1: in terms of the spelling and the style and the tone, 630 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,400 Speaker 1: um to try to figure out who wrote what and 631 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 1: what had been influenced by who. Um. For example, she 632 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:34,879 Speaker 1: you know, likely did not um need help making her 633 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: narration sound like other books written at the time that 634 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,280 Speaker 1: were devotional in nature, because she had been hearing those 635 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,839 Speaker 1: from the time she was quite young, over and over. 636 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 1: I mean, we talked about St. Bridget's story that she 637 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: had read to her many many times, and several others, 638 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 1: so she already kind of had a sense of that 639 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: style of narration right well. And because she did not 640 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,400 Speaker 1: have the luxury of being able to write things down, 641 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 1: she probably also had a very good memory. So even 642 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 1: though she was narrating something from memory, her memory was 643 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 1: probably a little sharper than a lot of hours now 644 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: and a lot of you know, people who have the 645 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 1: luxury of making the list of things take to the 646 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 1: store because they know how to read them, right. Um. 647 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: She did not know how to read and right so 648 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 1: she had to keep all of the things that she 649 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 1: needed to know in her head. But it is believed 650 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,240 Speaker 1: that the priest probably helped her with things like phrasing 651 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 1: for clarity, and uh, just making sure that the story 652 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: was told in a way that made sense, and particularly 653 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: the parts that are about when she was on trial. 654 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:38,399 Speaker 1: She probably had some help not not running the risk 655 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 1: of further accusations of heresy by making sure that her 656 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 1: answers in the book were correct. Like that probably is 657 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:49,200 Speaker 1: something she got a little extra help with. But otherwise 658 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 1: people seem pretty confident that is her. It's her story 659 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:54,400 Speaker 1: told from her point of view. It's just told in 660 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 1: the third person. That's more more of a narrative technique. 661 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: Though then, uh, then cause is for a question? Um, 662 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,320 Speaker 1: here's the interesting thing? Or is it the thing that 663 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,480 Speaker 1: I'm going to say? I think? So? Is it that 664 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,760 Speaker 1: the text of the autobiography was not discovered until ninety four? Yeah? 665 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 1: That amazes me, I know. So nine thirty four, let's 666 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 1: just let's back up a step. People knew that this 667 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: book existed because there was a guy named winkind Word, 668 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,240 Speaker 1: which I just want to say all the time. Winkin 669 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,839 Speaker 1: de Word had published excerpts from it in an eight 670 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: page pamphlet in fifteen o one. Um, so it had 671 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 1: been referenced in other works that we already had a 672 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 1: knew about. So people knew that that that this was 673 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 1: a book that existed. They thought that it was a 674 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 1: book about an anchorite, like they thought it was going 675 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 1: to be a book about somebody who was a recluse. Uh. So, 676 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,400 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty four UM sitting on a shelf in 677 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 1: a library at a Pleasington Old Hall, Lancashire. Uh It 678 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,239 Speaker 1: was on a private library shelf basically, and people would 679 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 1: just pick it up and look at it and read 680 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: it like it was this ancient manuscript was not being 681 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,479 Speaker 1: really super weirre well cared for in that respect. UM. 682 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 1: But it was owned by the Lieutenant Colonel William E. I. 683 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 1: Butler Bowden, and one day he thought, maybe I should 684 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,840 Speaker 1: get this thing looked at. So he took his extremely 685 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 1: old manuscript that had just been sitting on a library 686 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:24,880 Speaker 1: shelf to a medieval scholar at the Victoria and Albert Museum, 687 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,759 Speaker 1: which at the time was called the Museum of South Kensington. 688 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 1: Uh And he showed it to an American media medieval 689 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 1: scholar there named Miss Hope Emily Allen. Men. Miss Hope 690 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:40,759 Speaker 1: Emily Allen was familiar with winkin to words Hamplet and 691 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,880 Speaker 1: she's the one who identified it Kemp. She said, this 692 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 1: is Marjorie Kemp's book. Um, they were all kind of 693 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:49,720 Speaker 1: surprised that this was a married woman who had traveled 694 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 1: around that that was not what they expected to happen. Um. 695 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,000 Speaker 1: The surviving tess the one and only copy that we 696 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,440 Speaker 1: have of this medieval work. Um. It was written in 697 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 1: one person handwriting. Uh, and probably in about fourteen fifty, 698 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:05,799 Speaker 1: so it was not the first one. No, it's not 699 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:10,400 Speaker 1: the original, but it's a pretty early copy. Um. The 700 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 1: first print edition of this newly rediscovered thing came out 701 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,840 Speaker 1: in ninety and now, because this is a hundreds of 702 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 1: year old manuscript that's been around for a really long time, 703 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 1: if you want to read it, you can on the 704 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,960 Speaker 1: internet for free. That is how far we've come as 705 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 1: a society. Yeah, you can read medieval women, woman mystics, 706 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 1: entire work on the internet for free. Yeah. Yeah, we've 707 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:36,879 Speaker 1: come a long way. We've come a really long way. 708 00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,720 Speaker 1: Really fascinating story to me is I love her story 709 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 1: because it is so just mind blowing. She was, you know, 710 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 1: so outside the realm of of what was ever expected. 711 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 1: I mean, as you said, even scholars that discovered the book, 712 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:54,759 Speaker 1: it was like what they thought that happened in her 713 00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,880 Speaker 1: life and then she her husband went with her and 714 00:40:57,880 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 1: he said it was okay that they weren't going to 715 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:03,240 Speaker 1: have sech. Wow, it's a fascinating tale. It is outside 716 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,359 Speaker 1: the realm of regularity for her time, for sure. Yeah, 717 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,720 Speaker 1: outside the realm of regularity for a lot of stuff. 718 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:12,400 Speaker 1: And she's you know, regardless of whether you feel that 719 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 1: her visions were real or we're psychosis, she was a 720 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,520 Speaker 1: remarkable woman. Yeah. There you can you know, google her 721 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:25,560 Speaker 1: and see all manner of artwork depicting her, uh, which 722 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:27,640 Speaker 1: is just it's one of those things where I will 723 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:29,400 Speaker 1: think about her story and I'll look at some of 724 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: those and it's like my brain tries to put them together, 725 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,160 Speaker 1: and I just I wish I could know what was 726 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,839 Speaker 1: really going on in her head. Sometimes. If you if 727 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 1: you want to read her book, you have two choices. 728 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,319 Speaker 1: I means there are lots of editions of it, but 729 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,760 Speaker 1: two primary choices. And one is the one with modernized language, 730 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 1: which is a very easy and fast read because it 731 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,200 Speaker 1: is a very simple language. Um, if you're reading the 732 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,920 Speaker 1: one that is more in more of a Middle English 733 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 1: style that can take a while used to it. Yeah, 734 00:41:58,600 --> 00:41:59,800 Speaker 1: if you're not used to it, it it can take a 735 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 1: lot uh to to get used to the way things 736 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 1: are spelled and all of that. But either way you 737 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:09,880 Speaker 1: can get a hugely interesting glimpse into a medieval woman's 738 00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:15,480 Speaker 1: just It's also significant because we mentioned that it's the 739 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 1: first English autobiography, but for many scholars it's one of 740 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,880 Speaker 1: the really best surviving texts on just sort of what 741 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:27,719 Speaker 1: life was like in medieval England. U. So it's significant 742 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,319 Speaker 1: not just from her religious story, in her societal sort 743 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,719 Speaker 1: of fascinating trajectory, but also just in terms of a 744 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 1: historical document about what it was like to live in 745 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 1: a port city in England at the time in a 746 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:44,000 Speaker 1: middle class family. Yeah. Uh, So many reasons that it's 747 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:52,759 Speaker 1: worth taking a look at. So that's Marjorie Camp. Thank 748 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,960 Speaker 1: you so much for joining us for this Saturday Classic. 749 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,439 Speaker 1: Since this is out of the archive, if you heard 750 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:00,759 Speaker 1: an email address or a faceboo U r L or 751 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:03,680 Speaker 1: something similar during the course of the show, that may 752 00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:07,480 Speaker 1: be obsolete. Now, so here's our current contact information. We 753 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,239 Speaker 1: are at history Podcasts at how stuff works dot com, 754 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,120 Speaker 1: and then we're at Missed in the History all over 755 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:17,280 Speaker 1: social media. That is our name on Facebook, Twitter, Tumbler, Pinterest, 756 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:22,160 Speaker 1: and Instagram. Thanks again for listening for more on this 757 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:24,840 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics because at how Stuff Works 758 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:32,279 Speaker 1: dot com