1 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:11,719 Speaker 1: Welcome to Backwoods University, a place where we focus on wildlife, 2 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: wild places and the people who dedicate their lives to 3 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 1: conserving both. Big shout out to onex Hunt for their 4 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: support of this podcast. I'm your host, Lake Pickle, and Today, 5 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: Oh Today, my friends, is not your run of the 6 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: mill Backwoods U episode. I mean, how could it be? 7 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: We're just days away from Christmas. Chances are if this 8 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:34,199 Speaker 1: has found its way to your eyes and ear drums, 9 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: you're in the midst of the holiday hustle and bustle. 10 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: Maybe you're out doing last minute shopping. Maybe you're out 11 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: getting ready for a party year for family to come over. 12 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:45,480 Speaker 1: Maybe you're on vacation until New Year's and you're riding 13 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: out to go hunting. You lucky rascal, whatever you're up to, 14 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: I hope this most wonderful time of year brings you 15 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: all the joy and happiness that your heart can stand, 16 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: and in the nature of being in the Christmas spirit, 17 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: I present to you this very special Christmas episode. Now, 18 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: think for a minute. If I was to do a 19 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: podcast focused on wildlife and wild places that was Christmas themed, 20 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: where do you reckon? I would land what animal gets 21 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 1: more pressed than any other during this holiday season. I 22 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: hope you all are ready for some crazy stories. So 23 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: grab a seat and make sure you're bundled up, because 24 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: we're headed to the high Arctic of Norway to learn 25 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: all about reindeer, the stories and lord built around them, 26 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: the biology and ecology of the actual animal, and the 27 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:35,040 Speaker 1: people who interact with them every single day. 28 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you about Scanta Claus. Like many 29 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 2: of these things which seems complete fairy stories, there's actually 30 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 2: a grain of truth in there, and in this case, 31 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 2: actually more than a grain of truth. You think of 32 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 2: a guy who flies around in the middle of the winter, 33 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 2: drawn by reindeer down the chimney, bringing presents, and you 34 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 2: might say, who made that up? But of course it's 35 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 2: almost entirely true, every bit of it, well except for 36 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 2: the flying. 37 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: The voice with a very cool accident you're hearing is 38 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: doctor Nicholas Tyler, a wildlife biologist who has spent forty 39 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:26,239 Speaker 1: years studying the ecology of both wildlife and domestic reindeer. 40 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: He's going to be our main source of truth and 41 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: learning all the wild and cool facts about these animals. 42 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: But first he's going to give us this unique Santa 43 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 1: Claus origin story that I bet most of you didn't know. 44 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 1: I certainly didn't. 45 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 2: In the old days, the principal transport in the snow 46 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 2: season up here in the mountains was by reindeer and sledge. 47 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 2: And you have in the eastern part of northern Norway 48 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 2: Finnmark you have big sledges with big runners a curve 49 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 2: up at the front, I'm sorry, in the west, in 50 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 2: the western part. In the eastern part you have things 51 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 2: called pulk, which are like little boats because it's more 52 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 2: forested and the big sledges don't move well between the trees. 53 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 2: But in either case you sit in your on your 54 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 2: sledge or in your pulk and you're dragged about by reindeer. 55 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 2: When the animals had spent the summer out of the 56 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 2: coast and they migrated in while they migrate inland in 57 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 2: winter time and settled down. The people on their migration 58 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 2: were using their lava their tents rather like your wigwams 59 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 2: canvas tents in a pyramidal form. But in the winter 60 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 2: they would move into a gummer. And a gummer is 61 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 2: a permanent structure, a wooden frame and built up on 62 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 2: all sides and on the top with turf, and once 63 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 2: you settled in your gummer or winter hut, then you 64 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:06,119 Speaker 2: would let the door snow in. Snow would pack round 65 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 2: the hut. And that's good. That's more insulation. And at 66 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 2: that time, the only way in and out of a 67 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 2: gumma is up the ladder and out of the smoke hole. Now, 68 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 2: the only guy you see where I'm going, the only 69 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 2: person who's moving around at that time of year is 70 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 2: the shaman. And the shaman is sitting on his sledge 71 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:32,840 Speaker 2: being pulled by reindeer. And when he arrives at the gumma, 72 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 2: he comes down the smoke hole. But he's not bringing gifts. 73 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 2: He's bringing something much more important. He's bringing medicine and news. 74 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 2: Medicine and news are really important. So there you have it. Here, 75 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 2: you have the good guy traveling around in the middle 76 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 2: of the winter, pulled by reindeer. He comes down the 77 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 2: smoke hole and he brings gifts. Wyb brings important stuff. 78 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 2: Sounds familiar. I don't know whether that is the origin 79 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 2: of Santa Claus, but it jolly well oughts to be. 80 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: I think it jolly well ought to be too. I 81 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: bet y'all didn't think y'all well ever going to get 82 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: a Santa Claus education on Backwoods University. But here we 83 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: are got to stay on your toes around here. We 84 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: got one more wild tale that I don't think you'll believe, 85 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 1: but we're going to save that until the very end 86 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: of this episode. For now, let's dive into all things reindeer, 87 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: starting off by learning a little more about doctor Nicholas Tyler, 88 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: who's going to be our resident reindeer expert. 89 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 2: I'm a biologist and I've spent forty years studying the 90 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 2: ecology of reindeer, and I started off with wild reindeer 91 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 2: in the hi Optic Archipelago of Svalbard, and then since 92 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 2: then I've worked a lot also with domesticated reindeer in 93 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 2: northern Norway, where I live. And the reasons we're working 94 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 2: with those animals is that we can keep them in 95 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 2: captivity for physiological experiments. But when you work with these animals, 96 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:10,359 Speaker 2: you can't avoid also becoming involved in the Sami people 97 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 2: who heard them. So although I'm principally an ecologist, with 98 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 2: to do some work in physiology as well, but I 99 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 2: have also written papers on reindeer, posturalism, and the Sami people, 100 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 2: which is a part and parcel of studying reindeer in 101 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 2: their environment. 102 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: Okay, so we got a good bit of foreshadowing of 103 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: where all this conversation will take us. Wild reindeer, domesticated reindeer, 104 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 1: the indigenous Sami people of Norway that heard them. I'm 105 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: telling you this has a lot of fascinating twist and turns, 106 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: some of which I promise you're not going to see coming. 107 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: And another thing that excites me about these kind of 108 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: topics is it gives us a glimpse to how humans 109 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: interact with wildlife and wild places outside of our own country. 110 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,039 Speaker 1: I always find it valuable to gain more perspectives and 111 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:02,799 Speaker 1: identify key differences in similarities between there and here at home. 112 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: But before we get into all that, let's get a 113 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: better general understanding of the animals themselves. 114 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 2: Reindeer as we call them in English in Eurasia and 115 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 2: you call caribou in North America. That's the same species. 116 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 2: It's one big species rangefa tarandus, and these animals have 117 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 2: a circumpolar distribution, so they are found right the way 118 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 2: across North and North America and northern Eurasia, from the 119 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 2: Fennoscandinavian Peninsula in the west to the Pacific Ocean in 120 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 2: the east, and caribou the North American form only exists 121 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 2: only as wild animals. All together, there are about four 122 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 2: million of these animals in the world. About half of 123 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 2: them are what we call domesticated. So in the Eurasia, 124 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 2: in a North America, you have wild caribou, and in 125 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 2: Eurasia you have wild reindeer and domesticated reindeer, which are 126 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 2: the majority over here. And these animals are herded by 127 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 2: indigenous peoples right the way across northern Eurasia twenty four 128 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 2: different peoples from the Sami people of Fenes Gandia, and 129 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 2: then you have the nets and Komi and doll guns 130 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 2: and airvens and avenky, different groups of indigenous peoples continuously 131 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 2: stretching halfway around the northern world in northern Eurasia, and 132 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 2: there's evidence of humans working closely with reindeer in northern 133 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 2: Eurasia going back about ten thousand years, but domestication as 134 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 2: we recognize it now seems to be of more recent origin, 135 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 2: probably two thousand years old in some form. But large 136 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 2: scale reindeer husbandry as we see it now, with herds 137 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 2: of thousands or even more animals, is probably of more 138 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 2: recent origin four or five hundred years, but all the 139 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 2: way across northern Eurasia with these peoples. One of the many, 140 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 2: many common elements they have in their different languages is 141 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 2: our highly sophisticated vocabulary about all aspects of reindeer and 142 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:40,319 Speaker 2: their environment. And the existence of these vocabularies tells us 143 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 2: that the association between peoples and the animals is of 144 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 2: very ancient origin. 145 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: All right, Three things right out of the gate that 146 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: we need to make sure stick. Number One, you heard 147 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: the term circumpolar distribution. If you don't know, this means 148 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: that an animal can be found all the way around 149 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: either the North Pole or the South Pole. In this case, 150 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: reindeer can be found all the way around the North 151 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 1: Pole from Norway to Russia to Alaska. Number Two, saying 152 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 1: reindeer and caribou is like saying tomato, tomato. They're the 153 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: same thing. This is going to come back up later, 154 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: so make sure you hold on to that. Number Three, 155 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 1: the relationship between the indigenous peoples and the reindeer is 156 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: a huge part of this story. We haven't made it 157 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: far enough into the conversation to truly grasp how important 158 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: and how impact will just yet but trust me, before 159 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: we dive into all that, I want to spend a 160 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,079 Speaker 1: little bit more time with doctor Nicholas Tyler about how 161 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: he personally became interested in reindeer, other wildlife species of 162 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 1: the Arctic, and the Arctic ecosystem itself. I think it's 163 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:44,439 Speaker 1: important that we get a sense of the passion this 164 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: man has for this subject before we dive into the 165 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 1: facts and science part of it. 166 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 2: As a boy, I went with my father. I went 167 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 2: to camping and fishing and walking in the mountains in 168 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 2: England inso far as we've got mountains, and loved being outdoors. 169 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 2: And then I was fortunate enough to find a profession 170 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 2: that enabled me to do that as part of my job, 171 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 2: and was enormously inspired by people who had an understanding 172 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 2: of the natural environment and a scientific understanding. That's more 173 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 2: than just really good naturalists who can tell you identify 174 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 2: anything they see and tell you a lot about it. 175 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 2: But looking at the mechanisms of the phenomena that the 176 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 2: things that we see for the reindeer, how do animals 177 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 2: survive in the cold. You know, you're out there in 178 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:49,479 Speaker 2: December in the twilight, and it seems a barren wasteland 179 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 2: stretching away as far as the eye can see, and 180 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 2: unless if you've got really good clothing on, you can't 181 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 2: stand it out there for more than a few minutes. 182 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,439 Speaker 2: And then a bunch of what passed you in These 183 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,839 Speaker 2: animals perfectly happy, perfectly comfortable. How do they manage it? 184 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 2: And it's questions like that I find absolutely gripping. We 185 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 2: have a hut in the mountains here near Tromser, and 186 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 2: we're going to spend Christmas there, and there will be 187 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 2: little forest birds out there all right, little grape tits 188 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 2: and things like that, Little animals that weigh fifteen grams. 189 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 2: And the temperatures minus twenty centigrade and fahrenheit, and there's 190 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 2: a strong wind and you weigh fifteen grams. I mean, 191 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:44,479 Speaker 2: people think polar bears are cool. Polar bears are complete amateurs. 192 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 2: I mean, what's cool about being a polar bear? Four 193 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 2: hundred kilos of meat with a great big bellies not 194 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 2: a problem? I mean the really tough guys are these 195 00:12:55,400 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 2: small people fifteen grounds? How on earth do they manage? 196 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 2: And the same with a big, great, big grazing animal 197 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 2: like a reindeer just standing around the wind is whipping 198 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 2: snow around its legs, and it's standing there looking at you, 199 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 2: chewing in the card, apparently completely contented. And when you 200 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 2: start taking measurements of the animal, indeed it is completely contented. 201 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 2: I have books here at home that I bought when 202 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,559 Speaker 2: I started my PhD in nineteen seventy nine. One of 203 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 2: them was JP. Kelsall's great book The Caribou, published in 204 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 2: Canada in nineteen sixty eight, and at the time this 205 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 2: was the most mighty volume. This was every aspect of 206 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:49,319 Speaker 2: the animal was covered in it. Absolutely monumental piece of work. 207 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 2: Fantastic it still is. But even though and this is 208 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 2: in no way detracting from it, even though it is 209 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 2: a monumental piece of work, if you compare what we 210 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 2: know now and the kinds of questions we can ask 211 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 2: now about the animals and their environment with the kind 212 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 2: of knowledge even people like Kelsel had fifty years ago, 213 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 2: it's just fantastic how much progress has been made. I mean, 214 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 2: it's absolutely wonderful. And so when I started, the general 215 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 2: idea was the Arctic was a frightfully vicious place where 216 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 2: plant and animal life was teetering on the brink of 217 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 2: existence and the smallest pressure would knock things into extinction. 218 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 2: My gosh, it's a really fragile environment. Quite the reverse, 219 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 2: You've got wonderfully well adapted plants and animals who are 220 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 2: as comfortable in their environment as you are in yours. 221 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 2: It's a highly unstable environment, but it's immensely robust, and 222 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 2: I think that kind of discovery is absolutely wonderful. It 223 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 2: completely changes the way you think about the world around you, 224 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 2: without in any way detracting from the majesty and the 225 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 2: beauty and the awe of that world. Inspires quite the reverse, 226 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 2: Quite the reverse, it enhances your appreciation of that world 227 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 2: because you feel a little bit more understanding now than 228 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 2: people had in the past, and that's just great. 229 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: The more you understand something, the more you're able to 230 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: respect it and appreciate it. My experience so far with 231 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: this show and the topics we've chased down is that 232 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: this sentiment has only become more solidified and true. I 233 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: also find it so important to hear this type of 234 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: perspective from folks just like doctor Nicholas Tyler. You can 235 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: feel the deep admiration for the things and places he's 236 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: spent his life studying, coming all the way from his 237 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: home in Norway through your speakers, and it's impossible for 238 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: me not to respect that. So now that we have 239 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: a good grasp on that of it, let's dive into reindeer. 240 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: Starting out the gate with some need to know reindeer 241 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: facts brought to you by some of doctor Nicholas Tyler's 242 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: own writings and publications. You ready, here we go ten 243 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: thousand years ago, leading to their current distribution. Throughout the 244 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: entire Northern Arctic. Reindeer exists and are recognized in three 245 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: different types hier Arctic island type, continental tundra type, and 246 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: forest mountain type. There's also fourteen extant subspecies. The current 247 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: distribution of different genotypes is owed heavily to glacial types 248 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: that caused major shifts in the distribution and abundance of 249 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: reindeer during the Pleistocene. Some of these subspecies include Alaska Cariboo, 250 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: Canadian barren ground Cariboo, North American woodland cariboo, and Siberian 251 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: tundra reindeer, just to name a few. There's a lot 252 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: of physical distinctions and characteristics specific to reindeer, but the 253 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 1: two we're going to highlight today are their antlers and 254 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: their adaptations to the northern environment. Starting out with the antlers. 255 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: Reindeer are the only known servid in which both males 256 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,360 Speaker 1: and females annually grow a set of antlers. So if 257 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 1: you ever see a live reindeer or a picture of one, 258 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: you can't just look at a set of horns and say, oh, 259 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 1: that's a male like you could an elk or a 260 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: whitetail could go either way. Move over to their adaptations 261 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: to the northern environment. We heard doctor Nicholas say earlier 262 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 1: that the Arctic is often portrayed as a barren and 263 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: unwelcoming place where life is an almost impossible struggle. However, 264 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: reindeer are so very suited to not only survive, but 265 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 1: rather live, content and happy in the conditions the Arctic 266 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,880 Speaker 1: is known for. They're able to achieve this by three 267 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: very important environmental adaptations. Number one, reduced energy or food 268 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 1: requirements in the winter. Reindeer do this by restricting heat 269 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 1: loss and by down regulating their growth. Their main tool 270 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: in doing this is their fur. Their coats can be 271 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: up to seven centimeters deep in higher Arctic forms, and 272 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: their coats consist in part of hairs that have a 273 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: hollow core that creates an incredible insulation. Doctor Tyler told 274 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 1: me that he had personally witnessed reindeer at thirty five 275 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: below zero and they still exhibited no metabolic response and 276 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 1: are perfectly comfortable in those temperatures. That's crazy, thirty five below. 277 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: Number two enhanced ability to extract energy from the environment. 278 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: Reindeer have broad spreading hoofs to dig through the snow 279 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: to find the nutrition dense plants covered beneath. They sometimes 280 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 1: dig up to a meter deep to find the food 281 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: they want and need. Some also suggest that these wide 282 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 1: spreading hoofs could potentially aid in flying and making quick 283 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 1: and quiet stops on rooftops, but there's no scientific evidence 284 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: to confirm that. Number three energy storage. All reindeer retain 285 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 1: energy in the summer months and store it as fat, 286 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: which they can use to draw from during the winter months. 287 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: The last thing that we have to mention is migration. Often, 288 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 1: especially here in the United States, when you hear the 289 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 1: word migration, your mind often goes to birds, like migratory 290 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: bird species like the ani and you'll waterfol migration, for example, 291 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 1: But reindeer or migratory, which doesn't necessarily mean that they 292 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: could fly like birds, but it definitely doesn't rule it 293 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: out just saying, but seriously, reindeer, caribou, whichever one you 294 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: want to call them, they migrate. Sometimes. These migratory groups 295 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: number into the hundreds or even thousands of animals, and 296 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: they can travel hundreds of miles to areas where they 297 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: have grow store up fat reserves before returning months later 298 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:27,919 Speaker 1: to an area where they spend the winter. It's some 299 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: pretty wild stuff. Go search on YouTube for videos of 300 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:39,360 Speaker 1: reindeer caribou migrating and you'll see what I mean. Okay, 301 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: now let's shift to tad to still talking about reindeer, 302 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: but focusing more about the human involvement with them. Quick, FYI, 303 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 1: you're going to hear a term called pastoralism, which basically 304 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: means animal herting. 305 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 2: In Norway, reindev hostitialism is a flagship of the Sawmy people. 306 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 2: It's only a minority of the s army who are 307 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 2: reindeer herders, I think in the order of ten percent, 308 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 2: but nevertheless it's symbolic of that people and their culture. 309 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 2: If you think of any form of pastoralism, you've got 310 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 2: one extreme, which is sheep or cattle in a fenced field. 311 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 2: And in a situation like that, the humans have complete 312 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 2: control of the animals where they are, what they do, 313 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 2: what they eat, how and when they reproduce and so on. 314 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 2: The other extreme is that you have free living animals 315 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:44,719 Speaker 2: in nature that by great North and South as their 316 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 2: wild conspecifics do, and the people follow the migration. The 317 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 2: people don't lead the migration, they follow it. So the 318 00:20:54,840 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 2: domesticated animals are doing the natural behavior of this species 319 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 2: and humans follow along as part of it. So what 320 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 2: you could say is the animals control the humans in 321 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 2: terms of the annual cycle, but the humans might control 322 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,959 Speaker 2: the animals from day to day. So a group of 323 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 2: herders might say we want our animals across this river, 324 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 2: and we're going to take them across this river tomorrow, 325 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 2: and there on a day to day basis, the humans 326 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 2: are in charge of the animals, but in terms of 327 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 2: an annual cycle, it's the other way around. 328 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: The Sami people are just one of the twenty plus 329 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 1: indigenous people groups that heard reindeer. Collectively, these groups graze 330 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: upwards of two point five million of these animals, and 331 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:50,880 Speaker 1: this practice spreads across Norway, Sweden, Finland and Russia pretty wild. Today, 332 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: we're going to be focusing mostly on the Sami people. 333 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: And the interesting thing to me here is, well, you 334 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: heard doctor Nicholas say it just a few seconds ago. 335 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: These aren't reindeer. You're sitting inside a fenced pasture like 336 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: cattle here at home. Like we learned earlier, reindeer migrate 337 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: for miles upon miles, and the herders follow them along 338 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,400 Speaker 1: during this. It's fascinating and it's been going on for 339 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: thousands of years. It's hurting animals, but they're essentially using 340 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 1: and moving through the same landscape that they were before 341 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: they were ever domesticated. It's an interesting human and animal 342 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,880 Speaker 1: dynamic that I'm very unfamiliar with, and frankly now I'm 343 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: intrigued by it, but I'm interested in what's going on 344 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: with it currently. 345 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 2: If you take reindeer apostolism generally not good, it's under threat. 346 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 2: There are about four hundred and fifty thousand domesticated reindeer 347 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 2: in the Scandinavian Peninsula. They're about one point seven million 348 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 2: domesticated reindeer and Russia. Russia is considerably bigger than the 349 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 2: Scantinate Finnish canton in peninsula, so the density of animals 350 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 2: here is very, very much higher than in Russia, but 351 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 2: reindeer husbandry reinde pastoralism here is under threat, or at 352 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 2: least under pressure. It's under multiple pressures, the principal one 353 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 2: being a loss of habitat to industrial and domestic encroachment. 354 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 2: About seventy one percent of the pasture lands in Norway 355 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 2: are influenced by the presence of humans, and that means 356 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 2: that animals move away from where humans are. So there 357 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 2: is huge areas of pasture which is underused, and the 358 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,679 Speaker 2: other side of that coin is there are huge areas 359 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 2: of pasture which are overused as a result of that phenomenon. 360 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 2: And then the same situation exists in the Russian Federation, 361 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:09,199 Speaker 2: where reindeer husbandry increased considerably during the communist period, but 362 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 2: when communism collapsed in nineteen ninety one, so did the 363 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:20,880 Speaker 2: subsidies given to the herders, and reindeer husbandry in the 364 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 2: East has suffered considerably as a result. I talked to 365 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 2: one leader from the far East of Russia, and I 366 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 2: knew that some years before he was in charge of 367 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 2: about twenty thousand reindeer, and I said to him, then, 368 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 2: how are your animals now? And he said there aren't any, 369 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 2: And I said well, where did they go? And he said, 370 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 2: we ate them. And because this is now we're talking 371 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:54,919 Speaker 2: about the late nineteen nineties, because food was in short supply, 372 00:24:55,080 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 2: the supply lines provided by the communist state had been dismantled, 373 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 2: and the people ate their reindeer. So reindeer pastoralism, which 374 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 2: is enormously culturally, enormously important for all these peoples, is, 375 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,919 Speaker 2: if not exactly under threat, it's certainly under considerable pressure. 376 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 2: So were reindeer pastoralism to reduce, that would have an 377 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,679 Speaker 2: effect not only for the herders and for the animals 378 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 2: and for the pasture lands which the animals historically have grazed, 379 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 2: but it would have an effect for an entire culture. 380 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 2: And I don't think the situation is quite as catastrophic 381 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 2: as that sounds. But it's clearly the case that the 382 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 2: implication of a decline in reindeer pastoralism involves effects on 383 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 2: more than just the people who are directly involved. I 384 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 2: either herders themselves. No, it's more important than that. 385 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 1: It's interesting, it's very interesting talking about that subject there. 386 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: And then all this like loss of access and habitat. 387 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 1: We deal with similar things in North America, right, We 388 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,679 Speaker 1: lose wildlife habitat all the time to industrial activity to 389 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 1: domestic sprawl. There's some parallels there, and I'm at home. 390 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: We some things that we have in place, like we 391 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: have some conservation organizations that folks will try to make 392 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: an effort or initiative to you know, put some acreage 393 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 1: of land back into wildlife habitat, or they'll try to 394 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 1: restore or read rewild areas. Is there anything like that 395 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: in Norway where you know their attempts to try to 396 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 1: restore habitat or rehope in habitat or anything like that. 397 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:49,360 Speaker 2: What we have at the moment is a furious argument 398 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 2: about the creation of wind farms in the mountains and 399 00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 2: a local newspaper up here. I mean every week there 400 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 2: is somebody writes in about a new wind farm and say, 401 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 2: this is simply appalling. We don't like these wind farms. 402 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 2: They are intrude in the terrain, and they disturb the 403 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,360 Speaker 2: animals and the reindeer, for example, move away from them 404 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 2: and soon and then the following week you get another 405 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,439 Speaker 2: person who writes in and say, that's all nonsense. Wind 406 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 2: farms are green energy. We have to have more energy, 407 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,919 Speaker 2: and anyway, the reindeer don't avoid them, and so the 408 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 2: debate goes on. But it's absolutely clear there are a 409 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 2: lot of people here who are desperately anxious that our 410 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 2: remaining undeveloped habitats shall stay that way. That's a really 411 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 2: important part of the Norwegian psyche, maintaining the outdoors. At 412 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,400 Speaker 2: the same time, we all like electricity, and we all 413 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 2: like major computer developments that give us AI access and 414 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,640 Speaker 2: things like that. You can only see that this problem 415 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:03,199 Speaker 2: is not going to go away. It's turning in to 416 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:03,679 Speaker 2: get worse. 417 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: We face similar issues here. A guy that works for 418 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,360 Speaker 1: meat Eater, a guy named Ryan Callahan. I heard him 419 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: say that. He said, the conservation is rarely convenient because 420 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 1: to your point, look at what we're doing right now. 421 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: You know, I'm talking to you in Norway from Mississippi. 422 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: Thanks to technology, I enjoy modern conveniences, but I also 423 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:31,360 Speaker 1: put high value. I put high value on wild undeveloped 424 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,879 Speaker 1: wildlife habitat, and it is encouraging to hear that a 425 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,880 Speaker 1: lot of the culture over there puts a relative high 426 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: level of value on that as well. 427 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 2: Yes, I mean I completely I couldn't think of anything 428 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 2: else to say. I totally agree with you. 429 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting to me when I can find some 430 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: parallels between natural resource issues going on here in North 431 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: America and all the way over in Norway or any 432 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: other country. Loss of wild habitat dude urban activity. Well, 433 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 1: we North Americans can relate to that one for sure. 434 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: And I know it's different because we're talking about the 435 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 1: habitat loss effects on herding animals. But stay with me here. 436 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: We have to remember that these reindeer are moving about 437 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: and using the same wild habitats that they were using 438 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: since well before domestication. So in turn, we can safely 439 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: assume that this habitat loss is affecting other. 440 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 2: Species wild species as well. 441 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: It's also nice to hear that it's an important part 442 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: of the Norwegian psyche to protect undeveloped and wild habitats. 443 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: I don't know about y'all, but I'm for conserving wild places, 444 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: regardless of whether or not I'll ever step foot in them. Now, 445 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: I'm going to take a sharp topic turn. Remember when 446 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 1: I told y'all earlier that the relationship between indigenous people 447 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,239 Speaker 1: and reindeer was going to be a vital part of 448 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: this story, Well, here it is, and I bet y'all 449 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: didn't see this coming. 450 00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 2: Eighteen ninety two report on the introduction domestic rangeer into 451 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 2: Alaska with maps and illustration. This is a repulse to 452 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 2: the Senate of the United States. 453 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: All Right, this story is only going to get wilder, 454 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: so y'all settle in. During the eighteen nineties, there was 455 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 1: growing concern that Alaskan Native people were starving due to 456 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: lack of marine mammals, the whaling industry, and the fact 457 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: that there was virtually no reindeer or caribou in western 458 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 1: Alaska at the time. The US government made the decision 459 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 1: to import domestic reindeer into western Alaska in an attempt 460 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 1: to provide food, income and training for reindeerhrting. So that 461 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: meant that they brought in Sami people to help with 462 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: that training. So these Sami people that we've been learning 463 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: about throughout this whole episode that reside in Norway were 464 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: brought stateside along with their reindeer. 465 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 2: Crazy And this is written by a guy called Sheldon 466 00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 2: Jackson January eighteen ninety three, Washington, the government printing house, 467 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 2: and he was instrumental in moving domesticated reindeer from Siberia 468 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 2: to Alaska. I think eighteen ninety four. The first ones came. 469 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: As doctor Nicholas tells me this story, he's showing me 470 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: pictures of the boats being used to haul reindeer, reindeer 471 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: getting lifted and loaded for transport, and some honestly pretty 472 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: chilling and sad photos of skeleton remains of people who 473 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: had succumbed to starvation. These photos were taken to help 474 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 1: encourage the US government to proceed forward with this plan. 475 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 2: Well, they didn't mess around, and when they wrote government 476 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 2: reports in those days, I tell you no, they didn't. 477 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 1: But that was one of the main reasons they wanted 478 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: to introduce reindeer pastoralism in Alaska was for sustenance for 479 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: Native folks. 480 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 2: That stage, there were no cariboo in the western Alaska, 481 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 2: and so animals were brought from Siberia and that was 482 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 2: the success. Then the contract went out to northern Scandinavia 483 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 2: and hundreds of animals were taken from northern Sweden and 484 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 2: northern norwayian shipped across the Atlantic to New York and 485 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 2: put on trains and taken to San Francisco. They were 486 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 2: unloaded at San Francisco and they were taken up to 487 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 2: Anchorage and they were taken into the interior. These guys 488 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,719 Speaker 2: did not mess around. It was so productive because there 489 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 2: were no caribou in western Alaska at the time, and 490 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 2: the pastures were really rich and the animals thrived. 491 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,479 Speaker 1: This importation of domestic reindeer was so successful that at 492 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: one point there was believed to be around six hundred 493 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 1: thousand animals present in the nineteen thirties. However, this success 494 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 1: didn't last forever. The Reindeer Act was signed and made 495 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 1: federal law in nineteen thirty seven, which prohibited reindeer ownership 496 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: in Alaska by any non Native Americans. This would lead 497 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: to any of the Sami people that still lived in 498 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: Alaska to sell their hurts. Many of them would leave 499 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 1: Alaska after doing this, and it pretty much put an 500 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: end to reindeer herding in the United States. Furthermore, mismanagement 501 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: and losses of reindeer to wolves and also losses to 502 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: wild caribou by way of interbreeding and also just captive 503 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: herds joining up with wild herds and leaving. The numbers 504 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 1: dropped drastically to the tune of an estimated fifty thousand 505 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties. Today, there's still believed to be 506 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 1: around thirty thousand domestic reindeer living in Alaska. Wild story, 507 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: But it's not completely done yet. There's one more part 508 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: of this that I think y'all have to hear. 509 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 2: The Lowman Company took their goods down to I think again, 510 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 2: San Francisco at Christmas time to sell reindeer sausage and 511 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 2: reindeer meat and so on. And there are photographs of 512 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 2: Sami people with their little blue costumes and their hook 513 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 2: toed shoes and their pointy hats in Alaska at Christmas 514 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 2: time with reindeer and a sledge, And does that sound familiar? 515 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 2: Sort of Christmas card? Wise, it all seems as though 516 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 2: the commercialization of reindeer and little people and snow is 517 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 2: an American advertising gimmick. 518 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,760 Speaker 1: Who would have thought that the Sami people, just minding 519 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,359 Speaker 1: their business and hurting their reindeer would end up not 520 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 1: only being brought over to Alaska to teach reindeer hurting, 521 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 1: but would end up being the muse, so to speak, 522 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,280 Speaker 1: of how Santa's elves are commonly depicted in Christmas illustrations. 523 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 1: I mean, it's crazy. Okay, we've about reached the end 524 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,280 Speaker 1: of this story, but I did promise at the beginning 525 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 1: of this episode that I had one more mind blowing 526 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 1: tail involving reindeer, and I promise you're not going to 527 00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: guess where this is going to go. 528 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 2: No, tell you another story, which is also illustrative. The 529 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 2: BBC on one occasion were making a program about animals 530 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 2: that used narcotics of one form or another, you know, 531 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 2: eight fermented fruit and things like that. And the question 532 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 2: was put to me, was it the case that the 533 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 2: sami reindeer herder would go into the snow and collect 534 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 2: the frozen urine of the reindeer that had been eating 535 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 2: the magic mushrooms and use that. And I said, I 536 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:43,760 Speaker 2: have absolutely no idea, but I will ask a Samy 537 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 2: friend of mine, and I repeated the question to him 538 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,840 Speaker 2: and he said, no, no, no, no, they got it 539 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:55,440 Speaker 2: all wrong. It's the other way around. There would be 540 00:35:55,960 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 2: some in a herd who were clever and they knew 541 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:05,759 Speaker 2: that the either the sami or the herder collected magic mushrooms, 542 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:11,959 Speaker 2: and these animals would hang around his tent and wait 543 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 2: for him to ironate in the snow and then they 544 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 2: would eat that because they want some of the good 545 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,320 Speaker 2: stuff too. And I can't remember the word, but the 546 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 2: Sami word for Reindea's watsaw, and there is a prefix 547 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 2: for watsaw, which is the name of the type of 548 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 2: animal that specifically does that hangs around the tent waiting 549 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:31,760 Speaker 2: for the good stuff. 550 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 1: Maybe that's why they think they can fly sometimes. 551 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 2: Well they could be. 552 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,439 Speaker 1: Told JA that was a crazy story. Also, stay away 553 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 1: from those mushrooms. They're bad. I want to thank all 554 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 1: of you for listening to Backwoods University as well as 555 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 1: Bear Grease in this country life. I know it means 556 00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,200 Speaker 1: a whole lot to Clay brent In myself and I 557 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: truly do wish that you and your loved ones have 558 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,880 Speaker 1: a merry Christmas and a fantastic holiday season. If you 559 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,479 Speaker 1: like this episode, share it with a friend and stick 560 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,399 Speaker 1: around because the new year is almost here and we 561 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,359 Speaker 1: have big plans for twenty twenty six. There's a whole 562 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: lot more on the way.