WEBVTT - 7/17/25: Saagar Debates Michael Tracey On Epstein Israel Connections 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:01.599 Hey guys, Saga and Crystal here. 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:05.200 Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election, 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:07.840 and we are so excited about what that means for 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:08.720 the future of this show. 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:10.760 This is the only place where you can find honest 0:00:10.760 --> 0:00:13.280 perspectives from the left and the right that simply does 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:14.680 not exist anywhere else. 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:17.080 So if that is something that's important to you, please 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:19.599 go to Breakingpoints dot com. Become a member today and 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:22.800 you'll get access to our full shows, unedited, ad free, 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:25.600 and all put together for you every morning in your inbox. 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:27.560 We need your help to build the future of independent 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:29.920 news media and we hope to see you at Breakingpoints 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:33.400 dot com. 0:00:33.720 --> 0:00:36.240 Joining us now for a little friendly Epstein debate in 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:39.000 front of the show. Michael Tracy independent journalist and you 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:42.320 can check him out over at Mtracy dot Nett. Grace Caesar. 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:44.440 Always a pleasure. 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:45.320 Yeah see you, Michael. 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:48.800 Absolutely so. I said this before, but I'm even though, 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:50.879 like everybody knows, I'm more on soccer side on this, 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:52.920 but I'm going to try my best to play the 0:00:53.000 --> 0:00:55.720 role as neutral moderator so we can have a one 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:57.400 on one and you're not getting just like you know, 0:00:57.440 --> 0:00:59.840 teamed up on by both of us on this whole thing. 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:03.640 But you recently wrote an article that takes apart some 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:07.200 of what you described as the Epstein mythology. This is 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:09.319 for Compact mag We can put this up on the screen. 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:13.800 The headline here is the idiocy of the Epstein mythology. 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:16.560 And you've been very vocal on Twitter now x as 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:18.959 well in taking part what you see as some of 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:22.920 the more tenuous theories surrounding Jeffrey Epstein. So before we 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:24.760 dive in, I just I want to sort of level 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:27.400 set with you, Michael of like what do you think 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:29.880 is going on with Trump right now? Like why is 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:33.640 he acting the way that he is around Jeffrey Epstein? 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:35.760 And you know, ran on releasing the files and now 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:37.280 he's not going to release the files and there are 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:39.000 no files and now yes there are files, but they 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:41.080 were written by Obama and screw you. And I don't 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:43.279 even want you to be a supporter if you believe 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:46.720 any of this nonsense. What is your assessment of what 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:48.200 is actually happening here? 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:52.600 Well, there's no doubt that the Trump administration hasn't roiled 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:55.840 itself in a pr fiasco of its own making. 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:58.120 I would argue, you. 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:02.040 Know, I slightly tongue in say at the end of 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:04.000 that article. But I do think that there is a 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:08.480 genuine trafficking conspiracy for people to get upset about. And 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:11.400 it's that so many people in the Trump orbit trafficked 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:15.200 and nonsense for the past several years, namely Cash Battel, 0:02:15.480 --> 0:02:23.120 Dan Bongino, et cetera, when they spent their time tantalizing 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:28.800 their followers with these teases about how there was going 0:02:28.840 --> 0:02:33.040 to be some explosive revelation once the second Trump administration 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:36.000 got in power and vanquished the deep state, and by 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:39.480 natural extension of that, of course, the quote unquote Epstein 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:44.760 files would be released, because it was the satanic, demonic 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:50.720 Democrats who were for some reason covering up all the damning, 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:59.359 damning information to protect their donors and friends and allies. 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:05.040 Becausecrats in this Cash Patel, Dan Bongino, you know, Rumble Universe, 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:12.320 Imagination are perpetually covering for pedophilic sex trafficking networks. And 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:15.960 Trump was occasionally asked about this when he would go 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:19.280 around on these ass kissing podcasts during the twenty twenty 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:23.200 four campaign, and if you go back and look at 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:26.160 what he said, he would often be a little bit 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:29.919 equivocal or non committal. He would say, yeah, sure, maybe 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:33.160 we'll look into releasing the Epstein files. But it wasn't 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:37.600 as if Trump went around campaigning on this issue of 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:42.040 his own volition. It's just that part of the twenty 0:03:42.120 --> 0:03:45.000 twenty four Republican campaign strategy, which I thought was very 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:50.560 clever and effective, was to tailor a message to audiences 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:54.960 who consume this kind of media, meaning the Joe Rogan 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:59.920 Network and kind of related podcast that I would argue 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:03.600 have conspiracism as a sort of habit of mind or 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:07.200 kind of soft ideology. Not that they're wrong, but every 0:04:07.440 --> 0:04:10.600 conspiracy theory that they might believe in, but that's just 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:13.840 sort of how they process information. It's like the epistemology. 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:17.120 So these Republican campaigners had the tailor a message to 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:19.800 these people, and Trump just kind of played along with it. 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:23.760 And it was always I think, going to blow up 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:26.240 in their faces once the rubber hit the road and 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:30.240 they were pressed to actually make good on these promises. 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:32.599 But Trump themself, so let me just really evaded the issue. 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:34.640 Let me just let me just to be really clear 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:37.640 where what your position is. I'll get Soger to respond, 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:41.320 do you believe there's no they're there with regard to 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:46.640 young girls being trafficked by Jeffrey Epstein and Glene Maxwell 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:50.440 to other powerful people, for example, But Clinton, potentially, Donald Trump, 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:53.360 potentially Bill Gates and others. You think there's no there 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:56.320 there with regard to those questions. And do you also 0:04:56.400 --> 0:05:00.440 believe there's no there there with regard to potential Intel connections, 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:01.920 whether it's CIA or Masad. 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:05.839 Yeah, So let me try to spell this out pretty carefully. 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:11.120 I tried to differentiate between what I've been referring to 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:14.640 as Epstein mythology versus the actual factual record when it 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:19.960 comes to Epstein. In the realm of mythology, there exists 0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:22.320 this belief and correct me if you guys think I'm wrong. 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:28.440 There exists this widespread belief that a pedophilic sex trafficking 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:34.720 ring has been systematically covered up, and that Jeffrey Eperstein 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:40.640 orchestrated this pedophilic sex trafficking ring by trafficking minors to 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:48.080 prominent third party individuals and then conducted a blackmail operation 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:53.560 to coerce those individuals into silence or complicity or something. 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:59.440 And the idea was that previously the Biden administration was 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:03.280 maliciously covering up this information again to protect the likes 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:06.040 of Bill Clinton or Bill Gates, et cetera. 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:08.960 But now the idea is shockingly to. 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:12.360 The MAGA base or the MAGA social media influencers anyway, 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:15.000 which I'm not sure is totally synonymous with the base, 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:16.479 but that's sort of another issue. 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:17.960 Now, to their. 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:22.040 Absolute shock, Donald Trump is apparently engaging in this very 0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:26.320 same cover up. I would argue that the factual predicate 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:28.680 for that assumption, which I think you guys will agree, 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:29.960 is extremely widespread. 0:06:29.960 --> 0:06:32.640 That's why people were so insensive about this issue. 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:37.400 The factual predicate for that is not well established at all, 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:40.960 or not nearly as established as you would think, given 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:45.200 the confidence with which people assert the existence of that 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:47.160 thing that there're so certain exists. 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:49.600 Okay, all right, let's go on the intel thing. 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:51.960 Let's go and get sobeign and then we'll come back 0:06:52.000 --> 0:06:53.880 and it can dig more specifically to. 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:55.479 Michael, First of all, I would point out that part 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:57.760 of the reason that the quote unquote factual predicate doesn't 0:06:57.800 --> 0:07:00.560 exist for what you're talking about is actually in existence. 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:02.559 In my opinion that if you look at the open 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:05.400 source information for how so many of these prominent individuals 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:08.719 dealt with Epstein, and then eventually the non prosecution agreement 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:12.000 that was eventually signed by Alex Acosta and Jeffrey Epstein, 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:14.880 and eventually, of course the Palm Beach County PD only 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:18.640 bringing a case against him for solicitation of prostitution actually 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:20.720 proves that part of the reason why a lot of 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:23.080 this stuff doesn't exist in the quote unquote factual predicate 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:26.040 and or DOJ documents is part of the reason why 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:29.960 so much of this does not exist in a court basis, etc. 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:32.240 If you actually look at the information. I mean, I 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:36.440 think Leslie Wesner is perhaps the best example for proving 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:39.080 what you were talking about, where we have a actual 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:42.960 high prominent individual in the year nineteen ninety one, one 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:45.760 of the only billionaires here in the United States of America, 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:48.400 the richest man in Ohio, who gives power of attorney 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:50.800 over jeff too Head aftery Epstein over his entire estate, 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:53.320 transfers hundreds of millions of dollars worth of real estate 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:56.520 over to him, to which Epstein then uses those properties, 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:58.920 as you just pointed out in the factual predicate, as 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:01.680 exists and points out in the Elaine Maxwell trial, which yes, 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:05.000 is only about human trafficking between a young woman and 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:07.760 Epstein himself as and he is the sole person who 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:11.360 is victimizing these women that was on Wexner related properties. 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:15.400 That's a pretty direct example of where nobody, including Wesner himself, 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:18.080 has ever been able to give an example of how 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:22.120 exactly you had this extraordinary situation of signing over power 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:25.040 of attorney and in fact, Vicky Ward, James Stewart, the 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:27.720 biographers who looked into the story say that many of 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:30.320 the people around Wexner believe that it was a result 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:33.480 of a blackmail operation. It's not that difficult to imagine 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:37.480 that the founder of Victoria's Secret, which entails selling lingerie 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:40.880 to teenage girls and surrounding yourselves with beautiful models and 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:43.880 all of this, would be involved in some pretty sketchy 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:46.840 behavior with a known pedophile of Jeffrey Epstein. 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:48.839 So I think that's a pretty. 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:51.400 Clear example tracing all the way back from nineteen ninety one, 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:56.560 showing the ability to use and coerce behavior, perhaps blackmail 0:08:56.600 --> 0:09:00.040 and others, to enrich himself. And also, I mean, we 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:02.640 can get into the intelligence case now in the future, 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:06.320 but exactly why so many people I think rightfully can 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:08.640 point in an example like that and say it's very 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:11.000 clear if you look at that pattern that there is 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:13.760 smoke there. Now, I agree this has not yet been proven, 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:15.559 but I would actually argue that the reason that has 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:18.520 not been proven is specifically to cover up the very 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:19.679 type of behavior. 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:28.160 Well that some people around wester may have believed, as 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:32.240 you put it, that there was some potential explanation for 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:35.880 Epstein's inheritance of this wealth that had to do with blackmail. 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:39.360 Is not a proven factual predicate for anything. 0:09:39.559 --> 0:09:41.240 Well, nobody's saying that, but by that point we're not 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:44.160 supposed to take any reporting. You know, at the end 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:46.640 of the day, you have a multi billionaire who signs 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:50.320 over power of attorney for his entire estate and hundreds 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:52.200 of millions of dollars in real estate, and it's because 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:54.000 he thought he was a money genius that shore. 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:55.719 I acknowledge. 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:58.960 I acknowledge that there are aspects to this story that 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:02.240 are non mythological in the sense that they really do 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:07.679 raise questions about the mystery surrounding how he garnered his wealth. 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:08.280 And so forth. 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:10.320 But let me give one example that I don't think 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:13.680 has adequately penetrated the popular consciousness nor has it been 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:19.400 adequately covered on alternative media, maybe including this very show. 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:23.840 Virginia Gouffrey, who I think you'll agree if you've studied 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:27.600 this case, which I assume that you have, is the 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:32.800 central figure who spawned the widespread belief that there had 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:36.280 to have been this pedophilic sex trafficking network, because in 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:42.120 late twenty fourteen, she issued a court filing in which 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:46.360 she alleged that she had been sex trafficked to a 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:52.440 myriad of prominent third party individuals like Prince Andrew, like 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:55.440 the former majority leader of the United States Senate George Mitchell, 0:10:56.000 --> 0:11:00.800 like the former governor of New Mexico, Bill Richardson, and 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:04.680 other people. And then she also made a categorical claim 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:08.679 that she had been trafficked to like unnamed prime ministers 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:11.400 and other people of prominence around the world. 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:13.360 That's what really spawned it. 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:19.160 And I just don't think it's disputable that Virginia Gouffrey 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:21.040 was a serial fabulist. 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:22.480 I know people don't want to hear that. 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:25.200 I know whenever I've commented on this subject anywhere on 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:27.880 the Internet, ninety five percent of the comment sections are 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:30.200 against me, and they think that I'm covering up for 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:32.840 pedophiles or something, as though I love pedophilia and that's 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:33.920 why I'm making this argument. 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:35.079 That's not the case. 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:39.880 Virginia Goufrey, per the factual record, was a serial fabuloust. 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:44.640 I'm sure you know, Sagar, that she accused Alan Dershowitz, Yes, 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:47.680 I do, having been one of the third party individuals 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:51.240 to whom she was traffick. She made this accusation adamantly 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:56.400 under the cover of the litigation privilege for nearly a decade. 0:11:56.960 --> 0:12:01.520 Then by twenty twenty two, because Dershowitz actually had the 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:07.839 resources and the motivation to pursue this charge against him, 0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:09.960 or to dispute it to the point of a settlement, 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:15.439 she then had to retract and recant this signature claim 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:18.480 that she had been making for ten years. Almost that 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:21.439 very much animated the media coverage around this issue. She 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:27.679 withdrew it, she totally obliterated her own credibility, and then, 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:30.440 sure enough, in the g Islaine Maxwell trial of twenty 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:32.640 twenty one, she was not even called as a witness 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:38.559 by the prosecution because she would have been a nightmare 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:42.160 under cross examination because so many of the things, the 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:44.880 most salacious claims that she made around this story just 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:49.560 do not stand up to basic scrutiny. You could even 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:53.800 find examples of her signing on to like literal hoaxes 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:56.080 in terms of these creeps who came out the woodwork 0:12:56.080 --> 0:13:02.079 claiming that they had the video footage of illicit sexual 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:08.480 activity in Epstein's properties. And then Goufrey's own attorneys, David Boyce, 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:11.160 who by the way, made a killing on this whole issue. 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:13.000 That's another thing we could get into. 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:17.720 How you know, basically the Epstein matter had has subsidized, uh, 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:22.880 the South Florida bar and all these feeding frenzy lawyers 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:24.000 who have made a killing. 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:28.240 But the other way, Michael, But yeah, yeah, it goes 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:28.800 both ways. 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:33.360 But the defense attorneys concocted a whole strategy whereby they 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:36.800 would extract enormous payouts for themselves. 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:38.440 Gives the toxicity of the. 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:40.559 Victim. 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:46.480 Last point, last point, Virginia Goufrey made millions of dollars. 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:48.960 She was she had a life of luxury as a 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:52.600 result of her deciding to become this professional victim that 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:53.680 was her full time job. 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:56.080 She launched a scam. Ng O, I thought the right 0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:56.840 was supposed. 0:13:56.559 --> 0:14:01.160 To be doing right now, mind, do you know how 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:01.760 it ended up? 0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:05.040 That she ceased because her life and because she was 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:10.520 a very troubled individual. It's not deniable she's pictured there 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:13.079 with Prince Andrew, but to paint it only as a 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:15.520 Virginia Goufrey is one of the only people that is 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:17.160 saying this is just not accurate. 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:18.040 Part of the reason. 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:22.480 Why he was absolutely integral to the coverage, and largely 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:24.400 it is because of the photo, which you're not going 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:27.640 to deny, I hope, of her picture with Prince Andrew, 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:29.280 which is literally. 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:31.080 What got him removed from his. 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:35.240 Public duties, as from his public duties as a member 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:38.120 of the British Royal family. Clearly they believe, at least 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:40.360 in some part, that Prince Andrew was involved in some 0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:43.440 pretty sketchy behavior. There was his relationship with Epstein. But 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:44.920 even let's step back. 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:48.240 Further, the Royal family was coerced through the tsunami of 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:50.640 horrible pr that they were subject to. 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:56.440 Hanging out with the convicted sex offender and in this 0:14:56.520 --> 0:14:59.680 case with a seventeen year old girl with his arm 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:02.640 around here. That's not acceptable behavior, not just. 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:03.560 For a British role family. 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:06.360 He wasn't a convicted sex defender at the time that 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:07.480 photo was taken. 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:09.640 You're right, he's just his routine to be hanging out 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:12.080 with seventeen year old women and to take photos of that. 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:14.440 Was he a convicted sex offender at the time, that the. 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:16.800 Photoportunity to check the date on what it is. 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:17.480 But he wasn't. 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:20.120 He was taken reportedly in two thousand again he was 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:20.960 not a convicted sex. 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:23.120 Fer, saying that in that case that Prince Andrew, the 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:25.120 member of the British role family, was did not have 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:27.640 access to the global elite in which people like Donald 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:29.680 Trump could say on the record in two thousand and 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:32.920 two before Jeffrey Epstein is convicted as a sex offender, 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:35.440 in which he can say, Jeffrey, he likes him young, 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:37.960 and which is an open secret literally among the jet 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:40.960 set class that this type of behavior is acceptable to 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:43.600 Harvey Weinstein and to everybody else. This is this is 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:47.880 open out from vanity fair reporting from from a quote 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:50.080 from Donald Trump himself, that's our current president. 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:52.160 But beyond that it is an o'. 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:55.240 Donald Trump said that Jeffrey Epstein, Jeffrey Epson is a 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:56.520 great guy, and he tends to. 0:15:56.520 --> 0:15:57.480 Like the company of women. 0:15:57.640 --> 0:15:58.560 He likes. 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:01.200 It does not prove that Donald Trump is a sex offender. 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:03.800 No, I didn't say that, it's he proves prove. 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:06.760 What I'm saying is that it's open knowledge that Epstein 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:09.680 routinely is seen and is pictured with young women at 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:11.640 that time. By the way, and let's continue this, and 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:14.840 this is why so was Donald Trump pegging this entirely 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:18.280 on Virginia Grufrey again is not accurate, and I think 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:18.960 it what. 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:20.880 Is largely I mean, she's the one who is. 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:23.840 Not because again, the photo of her with any of these. 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:25.600 Netlix documentaries. 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:33.160 Center they because she was, they never ever qualify any 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:35.800 of their coverage by noting that she has a proven, 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:38.720 demonstrable record of serial fabulousm. 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:40.360 Okay, did you can see that she's a serial fabulous? 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:42.560 I would concede that she was a troubled individual who 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:45.600 clearly as serial fabulous from the way that her attorneys 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:47.800 and others have acknowledged that she did make up some facts. 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:52.120 And I do think I'm not relying all of this 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:53.840 on Virginia Gufray. That's my point. 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:57.480 I have a much broader I have a much broader 0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:00.400 amount of evidence to point and this is all where 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:01.200 I think it kind of you. 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:04.440 Don't think conceding that the most high profile accuser who 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:08.280 was integral in the claim of a sex trafficking ring 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:11.720 insofar as her claim was that she was sex trafficked 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:16.000 to prominent third party individuals. I'm not contesting that Epstein 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:20.119 himself was a sexual predator. I mean, he's on the 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:24.240 record saying that he rejects that there should be any 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:28.720 kind of taboo against you know, post pubescans women of 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:31.760 any age or girls of any age being accessible to 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:35.640 men for impregnation. I mean, he had bizarre and creepy 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:40.680 and depraved beliefs around sexual relations with minors. 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:45.119 I'm not contesting that. I'm contesting this third party sex trafficking. 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:47.320 Ring that forms the basiness of why people are so 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:50.639 outraged now about something purportedly being covered up and all 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:53.720 these elites getting away with things. 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:57.280 Let me ask you a question about this, Michael, how 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:01.119 do you explain the deal he was able to cut 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:05.080 down in Florida with Alexicostu goes on to be Trump's 0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:08.120 labor secretary, who was US attorney at the time, which 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:10.639 led to him serving I believe thirteen minutes in a 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:12.800 county jail with the jail cell was open where he 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:15.119 was able to go to his office for twelve hours 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:19.560 a day. Afterwards he's released. There's significant reporting that indicates 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:22.200 after he was supposed to be on home confinement, he's 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:24.680 flying around, He's doing what he wants to do. That 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:28.639 deal was so sort of outlandish that actually a judge 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:31.440 came in and said, you violated the rights of victims. 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:35.440 This deal was actually technically illegal, And not only did 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:39.120 it provide for very cushy deal and very low level 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:43.000 charge ultimately for Jeffrey Epstein, it also indicated that none 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:47.520 of his potential co conspirators could be charged whatsoever. So 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:52.240 how do you explain this person getting such an incredibly 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:56.040 cushy deal at that point, and a deal again that 0:18:56.160 --> 0:19:00.800 allows any even theoretical co conspirators off the hook, which 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:03.800 is it's so extraordinary the even glean Maxwell now is 0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:06.000 appealing to the Supreme Court saying, hey, I should have 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:07.399 been part of that deal. What am I in prison 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:10.440 four since you the government said no co conspirators could 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:11.920 have ever been in you know, in diet or found 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:12.679 guilty of anything. 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:17.399 I'm just not sure why people think it's such a 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:20.520 profound mystery that a wealthy individual, whatever the source of 0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:23.800 his wealth, and I agree that if possible, a more 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:26.399 forensic audit should be done of how he acquired his wealth, 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:29.920 But obviously he had the means to hire a dream 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:32.880 team of lawyers to come and negotiate with the government 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:36.560 on his behalf. He brought in Alan Dershowitz, who had 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:39.280 just participated in securing an acquittal for O. J. 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:39.840 Simpson. 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:44.199 He brought in Ken Starr to make a federalism argument 0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:52.240 to federal prosecutors, arguing that the offenses for which Epstein 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:55.800 was accused were fundamentally state level crimes and did not 0:19:56.359 --> 0:20:00.000 enter the purview of federal prosecutors on that ground because 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:03.480 as the federal prosecutors couldn't establish that there was trafficking 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:07.720 across state lines or some other element that would place 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:11.280 the crime in their purview. Were these technical arguments, sure, 0:20:11.640 --> 0:20:14.359 But you know, if you want to make this a 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:18.440 scandal about wealthy people having access to powerful lawyers who 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:21.720 can maybe get them a more lenient non prosecution agreement 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:24.440 than the average person would have access to, I'd be 0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:26.439 all on board with that. But it seems that people 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:29.919 just immediately launch into the explanation that he must have 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:33.919 been some kind of intelligence asset or agent, and just 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:37.960 to touch on that for a moment, you know, Sager, 0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:38.600 I'm not trying. 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:41.480 I wouldn't. I'm not trying to personally attack you. I 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:43.000 happened to see. I happened. 0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:45.240 I saw a clip going around last week of you 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:51.360 on Tucker's Show in which you asserted that, Okay, maybe. 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:53.200 You corrected it, but I'm just right. But a lot 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:56.000 of people have repeated this quote. 0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:59.159 That derives from a twenty nineteen Vicky Ward article in 0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:02.840 which she's quoting or she's attributing, this quote from alex 0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:07.240 Acosta from several years before twenty nineteen, when he's in 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:10.879 a meeting with Trump transition officials and according to Vicky Ward, 0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:15.280 a former Trump senior Trump administration official, which sounds a 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:17.919 lot like Steve Bannon's blowing smoke. We don't know that 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:20.359 with one hundred percent certainty. By the way, why is 0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:26.639