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Speaker 1: Hey guys, Saga and Crystal here.

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Speaker 2: Joining us now for a little friendly Epstein debate in

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Speaker 2: front of the show. Michael Tracy independent journalist and you

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Speaker 2: can check him out over at Mtracy dot Nett. Grace Caesar.

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Speaker 4: Always a pleasure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah see you, Michael.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely so. I said this before, but I'm even though,

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Speaker 2: like everybody knows, I'm more on soccer side on this,

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Speaker 2: but I'm going to try my best to play the

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Speaker 2: role as neutral moderator so we can have a one

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Speaker 2: on one and you're not getting just like you know,

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Speaker 2: teamed up on by both of us on this whole thing.

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Speaker 2: But you recently wrote an article that takes apart some

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Speaker 2: of what you described as the Epstein mythology. This is

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Speaker 2: for Compact mag We can put this up on the screen.

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Speaker 2: The headline here is the idiocy of the Epstein mythology.

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Speaker 2: And you've been very vocal on Twitter now x as

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Speaker 2: well in taking part what you see as some of

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Speaker 2: the more tenuous theories surrounding Jeffrey Epstein. So before we

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Speaker 2: dive in, I just I want to sort of level

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Speaker 2: set with you, Michael of like what do you think

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Speaker 2: is going on with Trump right now? Like why is

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Speaker 2: he acting the way that he is around Jeffrey Epstein?

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Speaker 2: And you know, ran on releasing the files and now

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Speaker 2: he's not going to release the files and there are

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Speaker 2: no files and now yes there are files, but they

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Speaker 2: were written by Obama and screw you. And I don't

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Speaker 2: even want you to be a supporter if you believe

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Speaker 2: any of this nonsense. What is your assessment of what

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Speaker 2: is actually happening here?

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Speaker 5: Well, there's no doubt that the Trump administration hasn't roiled

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Speaker 5: itself in a pr fiasco of its own making.

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Speaker 4: I would argue, you.

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Speaker 5: Know, I slightly tongue in say at the end of

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Speaker 5: that article. But I do think that there is a

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Speaker 5: genuine trafficking conspiracy for people to get upset about. And

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Speaker 5: it's that so many people in the Trump orbit trafficked

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Speaker 5: and nonsense for the past several years, namely Cash Battel,

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Speaker 5: Dan Bongino, et cetera, when they spent their time tantalizing

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Speaker 5: their followers with these teases about how there was going

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Speaker 5: to be some explosive revelation once the second Trump administration

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Speaker 5: got in power and vanquished the deep state, and by

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Speaker 5: natural extension of that, of course, the quote unquote Epstein

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Speaker 5: files would be released, because it was the satanic, demonic

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Speaker 5: Democrats who were for some reason covering up all the damning,

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Speaker 5: damning information to protect their donors and friends and allies.

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Speaker 5: Becausecrats in this Cash Patel, Dan Bongino, you know, Rumble Universe,

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Speaker 5: Imagination are perpetually covering for pedophilic sex trafficking networks. And

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Speaker 5: Trump was occasionally asked about this when he would go

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Speaker 5: around on these ass kissing podcasts during the twenty twenty

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Speaker 5: four campaign, and if you go back and look at

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Speaker 5: what he said, he would often be a little bit

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Speaker 5: equivocal or non committal. He would say, yeah, sure, maybe

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Speaker 5: we'll look into releasing the Epstein files. But it wasn't

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Speaker 5: as if Trump went around campaigning on this issue of

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Speaker 5: his own volition. It's just that part of the twenty

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Speaker 5: twenty four Republican campaign strategy, which I thought was very

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Speaker 5: clever and effective, was to tailor a message to audiences

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Speaker 5: who consume this kind of media, meaning the Joe Rogan

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Speaker 5: Network and kind of related podcast that I would argue

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Speaker 5: have conspiracism as a sort of habit of mind or

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Speaker 5: kind of soft ideology. Not that they're wrong, but every

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Speaker 5: conspiracy theory that they might believe in, but that's just

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Speaker 5: sort of how they process information. It's like the epistemology.

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Speaker 5: So these Republican campaigners had the tailor a message to

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Speaker 5: these people, and Trump just kind of played along with it.

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Speaker 5: And it was always I think, going to blow up

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Speaker 5: in their faces once the rubber hit the road and

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Speaker 5: they were pressed to actually make good on these promises.

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Speaker 4: But Trump themself, so let me just really evaded the issue.

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Speaker 2: Let me just let me just to be really clear

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Speaker 2: where what your position is. I'll get Soger to respond,

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Speaker 2: do you believe there's no they're there with regard to

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Speaker 2: young girls being trafficked by Jeffrey Epstein and Glene Maxwell

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Speaker 2: to other powerful people, for example, But Clinton, potentially, Donald Trump,

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Speaker 2: potentially Bill Gates and others. You think there's no there

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Speaker 2: there with regard to those questions. And do you also

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Speaker 2: believe there's no there there with regard to potential Intel connections,

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Speaker 2: whether it's CIA or Masad.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So let me try to spell this out pretty carefully.

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Speaker 5: I tried to differentiate between what I've been referring to

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Speaker 5: as Epstein mythology versus the actual factual record when it

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Speaker 5: comes to Epstein. In the realm of mythology, there exists

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Speaker 5: this belief and correct me if you guys think I'm wrong.

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Speaker 5: There exists this widespread belief that a pedophilic sex trafficking

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Speaker 5: ring has been systematically covered up, and that Jeffrey Eperstein

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Speaker 5: orchestrated this pedophilic sex trafficking ring by trafficking minors to

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Speaker 5: prominent third party individuals and then conducted a blackmail operation

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Speaker 5: to coerce those individuals into silence or complicity or something.

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Speaker 5: And the idea was that previously the Biden administration was

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Speaker 5: maliciously covering up this information again to protect the likes

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Speaker 5: of Bill Clinton or Bill Gates, et cetera.

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Speaker 4: But now the idea is shockingly to.

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Speaker 5: The MAGA base or the MAGA social media influencers anyway,

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Speaker 5: which I'm not sure is totally synonymous with the base,

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Speaker 5: but that's sort of another issue.

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Speaker 4: Now, to their.

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Speaker 5: Absolute shock, Donald Trump is apparently engaging in this very

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Speaker 5: same cover up. I would argue that the factual predicate

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Speaker 5: for that assumption, which I think you guys will agree,

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Speaker 5: is extremely widespread.

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Speaker 4: That's why people were so insensive about this issue.

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Speaker 5: The factual predicate for that is not well established at all,

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Speaker 5: or not nearly as established as you would think, given

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Speaker 5: the confidence with which people assert the existence of that

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Speaker 5: thing that there're so certain exists.

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Speaker 4: Okay, all right, let's go on the intel thing.

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Speaker 2: Let's go and get sobeign and then we'll come back

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Speaker 2: and it can dig more specifically to.

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Speaker 3: Michael, First of all, I would point out that part

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Speaker 3: of the reason that the quote unquote factual predicate doesn't

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Speaker 3: exist for what you're talking about is actually in existence.

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Speaker 3: In my opinion that if you look at the open

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Speaker 3: source information for how so many of these prominent individuals

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Speaker 3: dealt with Epstein, and then eventually the non prosecution agreement

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Speaker 3: that was eventually signed by Alex Acosta and Jeffrey Epstein,

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Speaker 3: and eventually, of course the Palm Beach County PD only

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Speaker 3: bringing a case against him for solicitation of prostitution actually

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Speaker 3: proves that part of the reason why a lot of

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Speaker 3: this stuff doesn't exist in the quote unquote factual predicate

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Speaker 3: and or DOJ documents is part of the reason why

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Speaker 3: so much of this does not exist in a court basis, etc.

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Speaker 3: If you actually look at the information. I mean, I

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Speaker 3: think Leslie Wesner is perhaps the best example for proving

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Speaker 3: what you were talking about, where we have a actual

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Speaker 3: high prominent individual in the year nineteen ninety one, one

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Speaker 3: of the only billionaires here in the United States of America,

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Speaker 3: the richest man in Ohio, who gives power of attorney

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Speaker 3: over jeff too Head aftery Epstein over his entire estate,

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Speaker 3: transfers hundreds of millions of dollars worth of real estate

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Speaker 3: over to him, to which Epstein then uses those properties,

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Speaker 3: as you just pointed out in the factual predicate, as

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Speaker 3: exists and points out in the Elaine Maxwell trial, which yes,

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Speaker 3: is only about human trafficking between a young woman and

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Speaker 3: Epstein himself as and he is the sole person who

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Speaker 3: is victimizing these women that was on Wexner related properties.

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Speaker 3: That's a pretty direct example of where nobody, including Wesner himself,

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Speaker 3: has ever been able to give an example of how

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Speaker 3: exactly you had this extraordinary situation of signing over power

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Speaker 3: of attorney and in fact, Vicky Ward, James Stewart, the

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Speaker 3: biographers who looked into the story say that many of

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Speaker 3: the people around Wexner believe that it was a result

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Speaker 3: of a blackmail operation. It's not that difficult to imagine

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Speaker 3: that the founder of Victoria's Secret, which entails selling lingerie

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Speaker 3: to teenage girls and surrounding yourselves with beautiful models and

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Speaker 3: all of this, would be involved in some pretty sketchy

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Speaker 3: behavior with a known pedophile of Jeffrey Epstein.

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Speaker 1: So I think that's a pretty.

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Speaker 3: Clear example tracing all the way back from nineteen ninety one,

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Speaker 3: showing the ability to use and coerce behavior, perhaps blackmail

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Speaker 3: and others, to enrich himself. And also, I mean, we

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Speaker 3: can get into the intelligence case now in the future,

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Speaker 3: but exactly why so many people I think rightfully can

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Speaker 3: point in an example like that and say it's very

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Speaker 3: clear if you look at that pattern that there is

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Speaker 3: smoke there. Now, I agree this has not yet been proven,

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Speaker 3: but I would actually argue that the reason that has

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Speaker 3: not been proven is specifically to cover up the very

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Speaker 3: type of behavior.

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Speaker 5: Well that some people around wester may have believed, as

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Speaker 5: you put it, that there was some potential explanation for

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Speaker 5: Epstein's inheritance of this wealth that had to do with blackmail.

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Speaker 5: Is not a proven factual predicate for anything.

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Speaker 3: Well, nobody's saying that, but by that point we're not

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Speaker 3: supposed to take any reporting. You know, at the end

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Speaker 3: of the day, you have a multi billionaire who signs

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Speaker 3: over power of attorney for his entire estate and hundreds

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Speaker 3: of millions of dollars in real estate, and it's because

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Speaker 3: he thought he was a money genius that shore.

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Speaker 4: I acknowledge.

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Speaker 5: I acknowledge that there are aspects to this story that

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Speaker 5: are non mythological in the sense that they really do

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Speaker 5: raise questions about the mystery surrounding how he garnered his wealth.

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Speaker 4: And so forth.

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Speaker 5: But let me give one example that I don't think

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Speaker 5: has adequately penetrated the popular consciousness nor has it been

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Speaker 5: adequately covered on alternative media, maybe including this very show.

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Speaker 5: Virginia Gouffrey, who I think you'll agree if you've studied

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Speaker 5: this case, which I assume that you have, is the

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Speaker 5: central figure who spawned the widespread belief that there had

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Speaker 5: to have been this pedophilic sex trafficking network, because in

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Speaker 5: late twenty fourteen, she issued a court filing in which

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Speaker 5: she alleged that she had been sex trafficked to a

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Speaker 5: myriad of prominent third party individuals like Prince Andrew, like

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Speaker 5: the former majority leader of the United States Senate George Mitchell,

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Speaker 5: like the former governor of New Mexico, Bill Richardson, and

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Speaker 5: other people. And then she also made a categorical claim

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Speaker 5: that she had been trafficked to like unnamed prime ministers

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Speaker 5: and other people of prominence around the world.

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Speaker 4: That's what really spawned it.

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Speaker 5: And I just don't think it's disputable that Virginia Gouffrey

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Speaker 5: was a serial fabulist.

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Speaker 4: I know people don't want to hear that.

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Speaker 5: I know whenever I've commented on this subject anywhere on

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Speaker 5: the Internet, ninety five percent of the comment sections are

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Speaker 5: against me, and they think that I'm covering up for

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Speaker 5: pedophiles or something, as though I love pedophilia and that's

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Speaker 5: why I'm making this argument.

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Speaker 4: That's not the case.

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Speaker 5: Virginia Goufrey, per the factual record, was a serial fabuloust.

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Speaker 5: I'm sure you know, Sagar, that she accused Alan Dershowitz, Yes,

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Speaker 5: I do, having been one of the third party individuals

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Speaker 5: to whom she was traffick. She made this accusation adamantly

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Speaker 5: under the cover of the litigation privilege for nearly a decade.

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Speaker 5: Then by twenty twenty two, because Dershowitz actually had the

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Speaker 5: resources and the motivation to pursue this charge against him,

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Speaker 5: or to dispute it to the point of a settlement,

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Speaker 5: she then had to retract and recant this signature claim

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Speaker 5: that she had been making for ten years. Almost that

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Speaker 5: very much animated the media coverage around this issue. She

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Speaker 5: withdrew it, she totally obliterated her own credibility, and then,

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Speaker 5: sure enough, in the g Islaine Maxwell trial of twenty

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Speaker 5: twenty one, she was not even called as a witness

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Speaker 5: by the prosecution because she would have been a nightmare

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Speaker 5: under cross examination because so many of the things, the

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Speaker 5: most salacious claims that she made around this story just

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Speaker 5: do not stand up to basic scrutiny. You could even

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Speaker 5: find examples of her signing on to like literal hoaxes

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Speaker 5: in terms of these creeps who came out the woodwork

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Speaker 5: claiming that they had the video footage of illicit sexual

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Speaker 5: activity in Epstein's properties. And then Goufrey's own attorneys, David Boyce,

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Speaker 5: who by the way, made a killing on this whole issue.

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Speaker 4: That's another thing we could get into.

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Speaker 5: How you know, basically the Epstein matter had has subsidized, uh,

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Speaker 5: the South Florida bar and all these feeding frenzy lawyers

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Speaker 5: who have made a killing.

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Speaker 3: But the other way, Michael, But yeah, yeah, it goes

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Speaker 3: both ways.

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Speaker 5: But the defense attorneys concocted a whole strategy whereby they

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Speaker 5: would extract enormous payouts for themselves.

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Speaker 4: Gives the toxicity of the.

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Speaker 1: Victim.

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Speaker 5: Last point, last point, Virginia Goufrey made millions of dollars.

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Speaker 5: She was she had a life of luxury as a

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Speaker 5: result of her deciding to become this professional victim that

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Speaker 5: was her full time job.

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Speaker 4: She launched a scam. Ng O, I thought the right

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Speaker 4: was supposed.

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Speaker 1: To be doing right now, mind, do you know how

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Speaker 1: it ended up?

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Speaker 3: That she ceased because her life and because she was

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Speaker 3: a very troubled individual. It's not deniable she's pictured there

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Speaker 3: with Prince Andrew, but to paint it only as a

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Speaker 3: Virginia Goufrey is one of the only people that is

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Speaker 3: saying this is just not accurate.

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Speaker 1: Part of the reason.

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Speaker 3: Why he was absolutely integral to the coverage, and largely

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Speaker 3: it is because of the photo, which you're not going

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Speaker 3: to deny, I hope, of her picture with Prince Andrew,

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Speaker 3: which is literally.

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Speaker 1: What got him removed from his.

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Speaker 3: Public duties, as from his public duties as a member

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Speaker 3: of the British Royal family. Clearly they believe, at least

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Speaker 3: in some part, that Prince Andrew was involved in some

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Speaker 3: pretty sketchy behavior. There was his relationship with Epstein. But

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Speaker 3: even let's step back.

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Speaker 5: Further, the Royal family was coerced through the tsunami of

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Speaker 5: horrible pr that they were subject to.

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Speaker 3: Hanging out with the convicted sex offender and in this

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Speaker 3: case with a seventeen year old girl with his arm

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Speaker 3: around here. That's not acceptable behavior, not just.

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Speaker 1: For a British role family.

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Speaker 5: He wasn't a convicted sex defender at the time that

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Speaker 5: photo was taken.

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Speaker 3: You're right, he's just his routine to be hanging out

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Speaker 3: with seventeen year old women and to take photos of that.

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Speaker 5: Was he a convicted sex offender at the time, that the.

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Speaker 1: Photoportunity to check the date on what it is.

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Speaker 4: But he wasn't.

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Speaker 5: He was taken reportedly in two thousand again he was

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Speaker 5: not a convicted sex.

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Speaker 3: Fer, saying that in that case that Prince Andrew, the

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Speaker 3: member of the British role family, was did not have

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Speaker 3: access to the global elite in which people like Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump could say on the record in two thousand and

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Speaker 3: two before Jeffrey Epstein is convicted as a sex offender,

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Speaker 3: in which he can say, Jeffrey, he likes him young,

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Speaker 3: and which is an open secret literally among the jet

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Speaker 3: set class that this type of behavior is acceptable to

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Speaker 3: Harvey Weinstein and to everybody else. This is this is

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Speaker 3: open out from vanity fair reporting from from a quote

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Speaker 3: from Donald Trump himself, that's our current president.

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Speaker 1: But beyond that it is an o'.

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Speaker 5: Donald Trump said that Jeffrey Epstein, Jeffrey Epson is a

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Speaker 5: great guy, and he tends to.

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Speaker 4: Like the company of women.

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Speaker 1: He likes.

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Speaker 5: It does not prove that Donald Trump is a sex offender.

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Speaker 1: No, I didn't say that, it's he proves prove.

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Speaker 3: What I'm saying is that it's open knowledge that Epstein

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Speaker 3: routinely is seen and is pictured with young women at

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Speaker 3: that time. By the way, and let's continue this, and

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Speaker 3: this is why so was Donald Trump pegging this entirely

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Speaker 3: on Virginia Grufrey again is not accurate, and I think

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Speaker 3: it what.

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Speaker 4: Is largely I mean, she's the one who is.

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Speaker 1: Not because again, the photo of her with any of these.

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Speaker 4: Netlix documentaries.

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Speaker 5: Center they because she was, they never ever qualify any

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Speaker 5: of their coverage by noting that she has a proven,

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Speaker 5: demonstrable record of serial fabulousm.

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Speaker 4: Okay, did you can see that she's a serial fabulous?

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Speaker 3: I would concede that she was a troubled individual who

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Speaker 3: clearly as serial fabulous from the way that her attorneys

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Speaker 3: and others have acknowledged that she did make up some facts.

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Speaker 1: And I do think I'm not relying all of this

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Speaker 1: on Virginia Gufray. That's my point.

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Speaker 3: I have a much broader I have a much broader

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Speaker 3: amount of evidence to point and this is all where

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Speaker 3: I think it kind of you.

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Speaker 5: Don't think conceding that the most high profile accuser who

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Speaker 5: was integral in the claim of a sex trafficking ring

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Speaker 5: insofar as her claim was that she was sex trafficked

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Speaker 5: to prominent third party individuals. I'm not contesting that Epstein

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Speaker 5: himself was a sexual predator. I mean, he's on the

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Speaker 5: record saying that he rejects that there should be any

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Speaker 5: kind of taboo against you know, post pubescans women of

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Speaker 5: any age or girls of any age being accessible to

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Speaker 5: men for impregnation. I mean, he had bizarre and creepy

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Speaker 5: and depraved beliefs around sexual relations with minors.

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Speaker 4: I'm not contesting that. I'm contesting this third party sex trafficking.

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Speaker 5: Ring that forms the basiness of why people are so

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Speaker 5: outraged now about something purportedly being covered up and all

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Speaker 5: these elites getting away with things.

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Speaker 2: Let me ask you a question about this, Michael, how

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Speaker 2: do you explain the deal he was able to cut

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Speaker 2: down in Florida with Alexicostu goes on to be Trump's

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Speaker 2: labor secretary, who was US attorney at the time, which

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Speaker 2: led to him serving I believe thirteen minutes in a

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Speaker 2: county jail with the jail cell was open where he

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Speaker 2: was able to go to his office for twelve hours

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Speaker 2: a day. Afterwards he's released. There's significant reporting that indicates

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Speaker 2: after he was supposed to be on home confinement, he's

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Speaker 2: flying around, He's doing what he wants to do. That

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Speaker 2: deal was so sort of outlandish that actually a judge

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Speaker 2: came in and said, you violated the rights of victims.

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Speaker 2: This deal was actually technically illegal, And not only did

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Speaker 2: it provide for very cushy deal and very low level

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Speaker 2: charge ultimately for Jeffrey Epstein, it also indicated that none

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Speaker 2: of his potential co conspirators could be charged whatsoever. So

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Speaker 2: how do you explain this person getting such an incredibly

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Speaker 2: cushy deal at that point, and a deal again that

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Speaker 2: allows any even theoretical co conspirators off the hook, which

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Speaker 2: is it's so extraordinary the even glean Maxwell now is

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Speaker 2: appealing to the Supreme Court saying, hey, I should have

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Speaker 2: been part of that deal. What am I in prison

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Speaker 2: four since you the government said no co conspirators could

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Speaker 2: have ever been in you know, in diet or found

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Speaker 2: guilty of anything.

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Speaker 5: I'm just not sure why people think it's such a

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Speaker 5: profound mystery that a wealthy individual, whatever the source of

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Speaker 5: his wealth, and I agree that if possible, a more

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Speaker 5: forensic audit should be done of how he acquired his wealth,

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Speaker 5: But obviously he had the means to hire a dream

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Speaker 5: team of lawyers to come and negotiate with the government

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Speaker 5: on his behalf. He brought in Alan Dershowitz, who had

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Speaker 5: just participated in securing an acquittal for O. J.

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Speaker 4: Simpson.

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Speaker 5: He brought in Ken Starr to make a federalism argument

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Speaker 5: to federal prosecutors, arguing that the offenses for which Epstein

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Speaker 5: was accused were fundamentally state level crimes and did not

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Speaker 5: enter the purview of federal prosecutors on that ground because

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Speaker 5: as the federal prosecutors couldn't establish that there was trafficking

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Speaker 5: across state lines or some other element that would place

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Speaker 5: the crime in their purview. Were these technical arguments, sure,

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Speaker 5: But you know, if you want to make this a

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Speaker 5: scandal about wealthy people having access to powerful lawyers who

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Speaker 5: can maybe get them a more lenient non prosecution agreement

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Speaker 5: than the average person would have access to, I'd be

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Speaker 5: all on board with that. But it seems that people

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Speaker 5: just immediately launch into the explanation that he must have

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Speaker 5: been some kind of intelligence asset or agent, and just

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Speaker 5: to touch on that for a moment, you know, Sager,

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Speaker 5: I'm not trying.

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't. I'm not trying to personally attack you. I

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Speaker 4: happened to see. I happened.

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Speaker 5: I saw a clip going around last week of you

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Speaker 5: on Tucker's Show in which you asserted that, Okay, maybe.

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Speaker 4: You corrected it, but I'm just right. But a lot

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Speaker 4: of people have repeated this quote.

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Speaker 5: That derives from a twenty nineteen Vicky Ward article in

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Speaker 5: which she's quoting or she's attributing, this quote from alex

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Speaker 5: Acosta from several years before twenty nineteen, when he's in

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Speaker 5: a meeting with Trump transition officials and according to Vicky Ward,

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Speaker 5: a former Trump senior Trump administration official, which sounds a

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Speaker 5: lot like Steve Bannon's blowing smoke. We don't know that

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Speaker 5: with one hundred percent certainty. By the way, why is

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Speaker 5: Steve Bannon sitting on sixteen hours of rawut okay okay?

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Speaker 5: And why was he strategizing with Epstein about how he

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Speaker 5: could present himself for a media interview with sixty minutes.

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Speaker 4: But anyway, that will leave that aside for the moment.

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Speaker 5: But that quote, with a sense, it's like the definition

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Speaker 5: of hearsay, and yet it got characterized as an on

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Speaker 5: record like declaratory statement from Acosta of him just asserting

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Speaker 5: that he had been warned that Epstein belonged to intelligence

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Speaker 5: pursue it to the two thousand and seven non prosecution

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Speaker 5: agreement and therefore he should back off.

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Speaker 4: That's not what that quote signified.

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Speaker 5: And actually, several years later, post twenty eighteen, when the

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Speaker 5: Miami Herald series brief new life into the story harnessing

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Speaker 5: the power of me Too, which by the way, I

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Speaker 5: thought the right was mostly skeptical of. Instead on this

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Speaker 5: issue and in like select circumstances, we hear the rights

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Speaker 5: saying believe women, we have to honor all survivors. We

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Speaker 5: can't use any critical scrutiny of their claims. But after

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Speaker 5: the me Too energy bolstered this story, the DOJ, the

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Speaker 5: DOJ Office of Professional Responsibility conducted a review of the

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Speaker 5: two thousand and seven two thousand and eight non prosecution

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Speaker 5: agreement and alis Acosta did directly address this claim that

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Speaker 5: he had once potentially asserted that Epstein belonged to intelligence

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Speaker 5: and that's why a supposedly more lenient deal was given

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Speaker 5: and Alex Acosta did deny it on the record. Now

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Speaker 5: in terms of the leniency of that deal, listen to

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Speaker 5: what Dershowitz has to say. I'm not saying I agree

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Speaker 5: with Alan Dershowitz on everything. In fact, I strongly disagree

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Speaker 5: with him on the issue of Israel.

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Speaker 4: It's odd to me that every critic of.

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Speaker 5: Israel now has to feel that they have to be

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Speaker 5: wedded to this particular issue because their criticism of Israel

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Speaker 5: is bolstered by the idea that the reason that Israel

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Speaker 5: is so widely supported among power structures is because there's

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Speaker 5: a pervasive sexual blackmail network. I think that kind of

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Speaker 5: makes critics of Israel look rather stupid. But Dershowitz says

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Speaker 5: that Epstein fired him and refused to pay his legal

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Speaker 5: fees because Epstein felt that he did not get a

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Speaker 5: lenient deal. He felt that the prostitution charges, state level

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Speaker 5: prostitutions and charges in Florida that he was required to

441
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:39,200
Speaker 5: plead guilty to were actually overly onerous and he should not.

442
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 4: Have had to be subject to any kind of.

443
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,440
Speaker 1: Over whether they were actually let me act, Michael.

444
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 3: The idea that this was because of me too is

445
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 3: complete bullshit. The reason why the energy of the US

446
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 3: district court judge ruled that the non prosecution agreement violated

447
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,879
Speaker 3: the rights of the victims who were not informed of

448
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 3: the non prosecution agreement, which you're portraying as standard operating

449
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 3: procedure for some sort of rich person.

450
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 1: That is just absolutely not.

451
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:09,880
Speaker 4: Jammy Harold's series came out.

452
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 3: I agree it came out to REGATROM eighteen, but it

453
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 3: was a twelve year period in which the victims himself

454
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 3: were not informed of the situation sued under their rights

455
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,120
Speaker 3: under the I believe it's like the crime the crime.

456
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 1: I don't exactly Brown.

457
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 4: Tina Brown, who have covered this issue very much.

458
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 3: I'm saying is that the district court judge is the

459
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 3: person who who overturned the NPA, which is the reason

460
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 3: why now perhaps some of the motivations of perhaps coming

461
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 3: back for your rights.

462
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 1: It is indisputable that the.

463
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 3: Rights of the victims were violated under that non prosecution

464
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:45,920
Speaker 3: agreement number one. As you just pointed out in that

465
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 3: OPR review, they said that a cost to himself exercised

466
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 3: what poor judgment whenever he came to that.

467
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,159
Speaker 1: Now, let's addressgen Yeah, but.

468
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 3: Let's address that intelligent. First of all, the transcript of

469
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:58,679
Speaker 3: that has never been made public. And the way that

470
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 3: it was phrased specifically around OPR and when they asked

471
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,400
Speaker 3: him about intelligence was he said absolutely not. I did

472
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,159
Speaker 3: not have information that he was an intelligence asset. The

473
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 3: way that that question, as you and I know, asked,

474
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 3: is pretty damn specific.

475
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 1: Now let's talk about Israel as we know. And no, no, no, no,

476
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:14,440
Speaker 1: it was much more.

477
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:15,880
Speaker 4: It was much more. It was much more.

478
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 1: Did you look at that out? Yes? I did.

479
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:19,479
Speaker 3: I looked at both the footnote where he said I

480
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 3: was allowed to address it in a classified saturd he

481
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:26,120
Speaker 3: said absolutely not. When asked specifically whether he belonged to intelligence.

482
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 5: He says, Now he was asked whether he had knowledge

483
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 5: of Epstein being a quote, intelligence asset. Yes, Bossa stated

484
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 5: the OPR that quote. The answer is no. I'm not

485
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 5: sure how much the more direct he could have been.

486
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 3: The answer is Look, I mean, I'm trying to be

487
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,479
Speaker 3: very specific here. I believe that the way that that

488
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 3: question is asked in the transcript and the circumstance are very.

489
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:44,199
Speaker 4: Important front of me.

490
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 2: No.

491
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 3: But but that's my point though, is that even if

492
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 3: you're quote he belonged to intelligence and I was told

493
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 3: to leave it alone.

494
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 1: Is not direct knowledge.

495
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 3: These are classic non denial denials, and in his twenty

496
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 3: nineteen press conference he did not actually address it whenever

497
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 3: he was asked on the record publicly. It's only in

498
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 3: this OPR review that he later on comes back to it.

499
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 3: I don't think you're going to deny in twenty nineteen

500
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 3: that he did not leave the door open to the

501
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 3: fact that that report could have had some accuracy. He

502
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 3: said something along the lines of I wouldn't believe everything

503
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 3: you read, but it was a non denial denial. But

504
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 3: at that time of that non prosecution agreement that you're

505
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 3: talking about, Jeffrey Epstein, by verified report, is in Israel

506
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 3: basically brought all of his assets over there, returns from

507
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,400
Speaker 3: Israel to Palm Beach in April of two thousand and eight.

508
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 3: So that's the first, in my opinion, sketchy connection for

509
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 3: why he is exactly granted this special status in Israel

510
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 3: whenever he's fighting a pedophile prosecution in the United States

511
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:36,719
Speaker 3: of America.

512
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: But let's just continue down that fact.

513
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 3: And this is the part that I just don't understand

514
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 3: for somebody who generally looks for links, why do you

515
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 3: have the former Israeli Prime Minister ade Barack, flying on

516
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 3: his plane multiple times, staying at his house for months

517
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 3: on end, pictured when there were dirt women there holding

518
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 3: a scarf in front of his face to Kaida his

519
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 3: identity from the tabloids.

520
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 1: Why is it that? What is it?

521
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 3: JP Morgan in twenty eleven to rely on Epstein to

522
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 3: broker meeting with Prime Minister net and Yahoo? Why is

523
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 3: it that aud Olmayer and Simon Perez are both linked

524
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 3: to Jeffrey Epstein. Aud Brock was asked, how did you

525
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 3: meet Jeffrey Epstein? I did it via Shimon Perez. Aud

526
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 3: Olmaher is named specifically by the US Virgin Islands as

527
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,679
Speaker 3: an Epstein associate. I mean, if we take that and

528
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 3: then combine it here with Leslie Wexner, the fact that

529
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 3: Jeffrey Epstein is on board of the Wexner Foundation and

530
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 3: then pays aud Brock two point three million dollars to

531
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 3: complete two reports, one of which he never finished, I

532
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 3: can continue back further here we have Jeffrey Epstein involved

533
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 3: in multiple sketchy arms transactions from the nineteen eighties. I mean,

534
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 3: this is where I genuinely wonder, like if you're just

535
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 3: trying to be a contrarian.

536
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: Do you accept it as.

537
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 3: A fact that Stephen Hoffenberg, Douglas Lease, and ad Non

538
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 3: Koshogi Robert Maxwell, who by the way, is a known

539
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,159
Speaker 3: MOSAT agent, did not have connections with Jeffrey Epstein in

540
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 3: which it looks like with a source of his wealth

541
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 3: was used as cutouts for use by the US intelligence

542
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,360
Speaker 3: or the US and Israel intelligence community. The four individuals

543
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 3: who I just named are known and linked to multiple

544
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 3: sketchy arms deals from the nineteen eighties Kaushogi, Robert Maxwell,

545
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 3: Douglas Lease, Stephen Hoffenberg. They've given on the record statements

546
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 3: about their relationship with Epstein. At one point, Epstein is

547
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,159
Speaker 3: flying on a private jet with Douglas Lease in the

548
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 3: nineteen eighties when he's just twenty eight years old. I mean,

549
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 3: I don't know how you can't look at that, specifically

550
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 3: hear about the money, even ignore the sex trafficking, and

551
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 3: not saying that he did not have connections here to

552
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 3: intelligence or at the very least for cutouts and use

553
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 3: as an intelligence asset in the past. I genuinely do

554
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 3: not know how you cannot look at that and specifically

555
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 3: where the source of his wealth is complete bullshit. He

556
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 3: starts a firm in nineteen eighty eight Jay Epstein in Associates,

557
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 3: where he says, I only take on people with a

558
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 3: billion dollars. There are only one hundred and forty one

559
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty people in the country or in the

560
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 3: world at that time who have a billion dollars under management.

561
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 3: He's never been a registered money manager, he has no

562
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 3: proven tax record. He called himself a coot high level

563
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 3: bounty hunter when he forms an international assets group. In

564
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 3: what way does this not look suspicious for everything that

565
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 3: I have just laid out there in the highest level.

566
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 5: I totally get I don't know what we're doing around

567
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 5: this issue.

568
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 4: But if you come out and.

569
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 3: Say, fact, yeah he was Mosad, That's not how it works, Michael.

570
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 3: The CIA doesn't come out and say, yeah, we killed Kennedy.

571
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 3: We connect all of the dots. I mean, do you

572
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 3: believe then the official Warren What you're saying is that

573
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 3: because the Warren Commission said that the magic bullet theory

574
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 3: is true.

575
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 5: So now we're going to go with you a detour

576
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 5: into the Warren Commission. But what I mean you're saying, well,

577
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 5: that's discuss this issue. But that's a fact like one

578
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 5: coherent training, that's a factual.

579
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 4: The War Commission that.

580
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 5: The primary Epstein accuser is a serial fabri.

581
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 3: By the way, by the way, there are two other

582
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 3: individuals who had named her name, Prince Andrew Johanna Schobert,

583
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 3: and I need to find her name who's.

584
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,080
Speaker 2: Been named here a Let me ahead and get that

585
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 2: is the case in particular? You know it, sober lay

586
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 2: down the connections with what four different Israeli or is

587
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 2: really prime prime ministers? You know, how do you how

588
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 2: do you assimilate that information?

589
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: What's your response to that?

590
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 4: Sure?

591
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 5: First of all, I have to just address the idea

592
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 5: that I'm just being arbitrarily contrarian. I can't tell you

593
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 5: how many issues I've received that accusation on over the years.

594
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 5: Whether it was the Trump Russia story which contained conspiratorial

595
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 5: elements where I was accused of being a contrarian, whether

596
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 5: it was the twenty twenty George Floyd riots, which I

597
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 5: went around and critically covered the poor media coverage of

598
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 5: I was widely denounced for being a contrarian.

599
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 4: I'll give you all the evidence. Whether it was the war.

600
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 5: In Ukraine, This just happens to be an issue where people,

601
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 5: I guess more on the right now think I'm being

602
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 5: a contrarian, and so they're particularly in range.

603
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: I shouldn't, I should not have impened your motives.

604
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 5: But god, okay, yeah, well so, I just don't believe

605
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 5: it's not contrarianism to critically cover how media narratives can

606
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 5: ngeal in the absence of what I think to be

607
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 5: a reliable factual basis, and.

608
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 2: People believe me linked up with all these I mean,

609
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 2: you had Dave.

610
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 5: Smith, who I think you guys have had on to

611
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 5: discuss this, or you had on a regular guest who

612
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 5: was at the Talking Points conference and accused Donald Trump

613
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 5: of covering up a child sex trafficking or child rapering.

614
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 5: I mean, soccer, do you think that that was a

615
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 5: credible statement. I simply don't.

616
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 1: I mean, so again, I would not.

617
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 5: So, but let me let me address the Israelisraeli officials, okay,

618
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 5: so yes, It's not disputed that hud Barack, for instance,

619
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 5: was a long time associate of Epstein.

620
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 4: They engaged in some business deals together.

621
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 5: They even edhud Barack, amazingly enough, was actually present when

622
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 5: Epstein was on a media strategizing session with Steve Bannon

623
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 5: where they were planning how he could rehabilitate his image

624
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 5: in the wake of the twenty eighteen Miami Herald series,

625
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 5: and Bannon was having to educate Epstein about how me

626
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 5: too had changed cultural attitudes around this stuff. So you

627
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 5: couldn't just be as obstinate as maybe you were able

628
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 5: to be before in the past in rejecting some of

629
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 5: these charges.

630
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 4: So Steve Bannon was.

631
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 2: Actually announce smear the women basically, yeah, yeah.

632
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 4: You had to be more sensitive.

633
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 5: So Steve Bannon conducted this fit in the sixteen hours

634
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 5: of preparatory interviews with Epstein to kind of tell him

635
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 5: how he would be questioned in the context of the

636
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 5: sixty minutes interview or something on the Israel connection. Yes,

637
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 5: edhud Barack was a longtime associate of Epstein. Epstein had

638
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 5: longtime associations with an astonishing array of people. I'm not

639
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 5: doubting that he was a consummate bullshitter. He had alliances with,

640
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 5: as we know, everybody from Bill Gates to Donald Trump

641
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 5: to Bill Clinton over the years. So it does as

642
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 5: it surprise me that some of those people included the

643
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 5: Israeli government, no or the Saudy arms deal stuff that

644
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 5: he was involved in in the nineteen eighties.

645
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 4: No, I'm not surprised about any of that.

646
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 5: And I'm also allowing for the possibility, as I wrote

647
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 5: in that Compact article, that over the course of his

648
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 5: bizarre international jet setting, perhaps he did come into contact

649
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 5: with somebody who was associated with the Israeli security services

650
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 5: and who Barack himself would have been the head of

651
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 5: MASAD when he was Prime minister.

652
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 4: So is it.

653
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 1: Inconceivable ahead of military intelligence?

654
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 4: So is it sure?

655
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 5: So is it inconceivable that over the course of their

656
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 5: meetings who Barack obtained some piece of information that maybe

657
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 5: he passed along to somebody.

658
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 4: No, that's not inconceivable at all. I just don't see.

659
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 5: It as dispositive or as like all encompassingly explanatory of

660
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 5: Epstein supposedly getting away with this child sex trafficking ring,

661
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 5: whose existence I don't regard as having been anywhere near established.

662
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 5: You know, in the Gislaine Maxwell trial, interestingly, Maureen Coley

663
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 5: was the prosecutor who was just fired yesterday, and she

664
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 5: then tried to prosecute you know, p Diddy, Combs, et cetera,

665
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 5: under like similar auspices of like you know, asserting a

666
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 5: sex track a ring, but like weirdly narrowing the claimed

667
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 5: contours of the sex trafficking to two people or one person.

668
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 5: So people hear trafficking and they think they must be

669
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:14,720
Speaker 5: the sprawling, multi layered ring, when in reality, the grounds

670
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 5: on which Maxwell was convicted was a sex trafficking que

671
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 5: unquote conspiracy that literally consisted of two people according to

672
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 5: the government and according to what the four purported victims

673
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 5: in that trial even claimed. Oh and by the way,

674
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 5: those victims in that trial just received multi million dollar

675
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 5: payouts from the Epstein estate and from JP Morgan. And

676
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 5: there was a similar Deutsche back settlement that came out

677
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 5: where by they could confidentially and non adversarily have their

678
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 5: claims adjudicated by a mediator. So if you had any

679
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 5: tangential connection to Epstein, or if I had any tangential

680
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,760
Speaker 5: connection to Epstein, of course I would work with my lawyers,

681
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 5: who are going to get cut to come up with

682
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 5: a story.

683
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 1: I become.

684
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 4: Purchase focused on.

685
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 3: I literally just told you there is another I had

686
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 3: to I have her name here in my notes.

687
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 1: I've got it right.

688
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 4: The latest.

689
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 3: Prince Andrew of inappropriate sexual contact while posing for a

690
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 3: photo at the Epstein mansion, suggesting that she was traffick there.

691
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,919
Speaker 3: That's in a sworn affidavit in the very defamation case

692
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 3: they're talking about Caroline be another anonymous individual.

693
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:33,879
Speaker 1: But listen, I mean, this is my thing. I did

694
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: you read the door?

695
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 3: Did you read the Deutsche Bank settlement with the New

696
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 3: York Yes?

697
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: And what does it say in there?

698
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 3: Epstein had Epstein had multiple financial transactions which broke bank rules,

699
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 3: in which he's transferring money to Eastern European women for

700
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 3: apparent sex trafficking purposes.

701
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 1: It's in the fucking.

702
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 3: Report there, Michael from the New York Financial Services in

703
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 3: which they find the bank for breaking its own policies

704
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,080
Speaker 3: for sending men wiring money all over the world our

705
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 3: apparent purposes.

706
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 1: After he's a convicted sex defender.

707
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 3: I mean, do you think he's wiring all of these

708
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,359
Speaker 3: money for hulkers just for himself? Because that's not even

709
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 3: what they say in the New York Financial Services document

710
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:12,359
Speaker 3: regarding the Deutsche banks elpment.

711
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:14,719
Speaker 4: Money at Rich.

712
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 5: If he's trafficking, mind, if he's participating in a trafficking

713
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 5: conspiracy to supply miners to others, how is it that,

714
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 5: over the course of over a decade of incredibly intensive

715
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 5: and lucrative litigation, not a single credible allegation of a

716
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 5: third party individual having miners trafficking them to has been established.

717
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 5: How come after every media outlet, at least post twenty

718
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 5: eighteen became hugely invested in this story. So you have

719
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 5: Netflix documentaries, HBO documentaries, newspaper and magazine articles, podcasts out

720
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 5: the wazoo. How come none of them have ever established

721
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:02,240
Speaker 5: any third party individual to whom a minor was traffic

722
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 5: Or is it because everybody is just so afraid of

723
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 5: offending Bill Clinton?

724
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 4: Really?

725
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 1: Well, no, no, but that's not accurate because.

726
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 5: That couldn't extract a lucrative settlement for Bill Clinton. The

727
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 5: virgin I be accused of having a minor trafficy in the.

728
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 1: US Virgin Islands.

729
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 3: Who has the most evidence around this because so many

730
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 3: of the heinous accusations, I won't say crime were committed

731
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 3: on their soil. Had an Attorney General who actually was

732
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 3: going forward with a lot of this prosecution. What happened

733
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 3: to that Attorney General, Michael They were fired and the

734
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 3: current Attorney General who.

735
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:32,919
Speaker 1: Is in charge of the case.

736
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 3: What you were still work for the Epstein estate, So

737
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 3: that seems like a little bit of a cover up

738
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 3: and a problem there no, especially whenever that's something that

739
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 3: happened to have been intersected in the past week, exactly

740
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 3: the lucrative dispersion of much of the Epstein estate.

741
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: They have Attorney general after this, let.

742
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 4: Me ask you this that Soger, Yeah, go ahead.

743
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 5: Would you concede that there is a perverse incentive or

744
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 5: or an incentive for purported self.

745
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 4: Identified victims because by the.

746
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 5: Terms of these settlements, all the court victims have to

747
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 5: do is self identify as a victim. They can do

748
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 5: so confidentially, meaning they don't have to be cross examined,

749
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 5: they don't have to have their claims adversarially scrutinized, and

750
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 5: then there's no downside reputational risk for them in the

751
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 5: fact that they're not adjudicated to.

752
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 4: The modified victims.

753
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 1: And you know, why would you agree that there's a.

754
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 5: Perverse incentive in terms of dramatizing claims to maximize one's

755
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 5: chances to receive the biggest possible payout. And were you

756
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 5: aware that the four people that the that Maureen Komi

757
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 5: and her fellow prosecutors had to settle on to bring

758
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 5: forward in the Maxwell trial in twenty twenty one, receiving

759
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 5: multimillion dollar payoffs because they were counseled by their attorneys

760
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 5: that in order to obtain the biggest possible settlement, they

761
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 5: should prosecution.

762
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 4: Does that create a perverse incentive structure?

763
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 3: I agree that, or contrarians, I agree that it could

764
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 3: create a perverse and censor structure. At the same time,

765
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 3: many of these are legally justifiable because of their proven

766
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 3: claim in a court where she was convicted by a

767
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:04,760
Speaker 3: jury of her peers.

768
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 5: In which he was Did you know that full flesh adults,

769
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 5: so not minors adults were eligible for these payouts and

770
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 5: actually one adult testified at the Maxwell trial.

771
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 4: Meaning she was above legal.

772
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 3: Able to sue somebody or have legal you know, have

773
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 3: legal justification whenever they are a victim of sec like

774
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 3: in the case of.

775
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 5: The fact that people who were adults could receive payouts.

776
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,240
Speaker 4: Because many years after the fact they could.

777
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 3: Adults never be able to sue anybody else and be

778
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 3: able to get any money for it for damages.

779
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like, what are you saying.

780
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 3: That their entire legal civil court system is false and

781
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 3: stuff by that standard. The ability to claim damages in

782
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 3: itself is a perverse incentive. Now, I agree it can

783
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 3: be weaponized, but I mean, in the Maxwell case, the

784
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 3: basically yeah, okay, but then I don't.

785
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 1: Know what to say, Michael, what's a financial game?

786
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 3: And the shuld support Republicans who want tort reform or whatever?

787
00:39:59,360 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 1: The fuck?

788
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 5: You know that all that is, they do not support

789
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 5: to a reform around this particular issue because it's been

790
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 5: so insanely.

791
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,919
Speaker 2: Let me ask, let me ask, We'll try to close

792
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 2: this up, Soccer. A question for you is one of

793
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 2: the things that I've seen from people who say, look there,

794
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:16,879
Speaker 2: you know, we believe Trump and there's no there there

795
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,240
Speaker 2: as they say, well, look, if the Democrats had access

796
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 2: to this material and Trump is potentially implicated, don't you

797
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:24,280
Speaker 2: think they would have released that. What is your response

798
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,320
Speaker 2: to that claim?

799
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:27,840
Speaker 3: Me?

800
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 1: Mind?

801
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:30,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, you Soccer, Okay, yeah for me, I mean, look,

802
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 3: I originally thought that it was actually a decent argument,

803
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 3: but considering Trump's behavior now so far, and this is

804
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:40,840
Speaker 3: actually where I wonder if Michael would disagree with me. Michael,

805
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,840
Speaker 3: why don't we just release all of the evidence within

806
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 3: the FBI and within whatever the case that has from

807
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,720
Speaker 3: the Department of Justice, the secret indictment from two thousand

808
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:52,880
Speaker 3: and seven, which has never yet been made public, that

809
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,359
Speaker 3: was prior to that non prosecution agreement. Release everything that's

810
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 3: in the case file and just show it to the

811
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 3: American public and we can all make up our minds.

812
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 3: I mean, that's where maybe you'll be vindicated, Michael. Maybe

813
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 3: you won't show any of.

814
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 4: The release everything.

815
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 1: I don't everything.

816
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 4: I agree with Dershowitz.

817
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,839
Speaker 5: Okay, Dershowitz said for said for for the past ten years. Look,

818
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 5: release everything. I waive any right to privacy. I've been

819
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 5: falsely accused. I'm going to be vindicated, so I want

820
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 5: maximum disclosure.

821
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 4: I'm in favor of that.

822
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 5: But there are there are two judges in New York

823
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 5: who are keeping materials under seal, you know why, to

824
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 5: protect the purported victims, mainly maybe to protect others who

825
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 5: could be defamed by those victims. So if people want

826
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 5: to go lobby, I mean, Breaking Points should go lobby

827
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 5: in the Southern District of New York for disclosure the

828
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 5: files that remain under seal. But I think the fact

829
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 5: that Dan Bongino, I mean, talker, would you agree with

830
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 5: me that Dan Bongino and Cash Betel and all these

831
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 5: people obviously dangle these tantalizing little tidbits in front of

832
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 5: the right wing social media audience on the idea that

833
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 5: Trump was going to storm into office with his most loyal,

834
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 5: tenacious soldiers and expose the deep state, demonic sex trafficking Democrats,

835
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 5: and that whole narrative was obviously politically expedient, you know,

836
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 5: bullshit that they very cleverly used to gin up excitement

837
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 5: to vote Republican in twenty twenty four, and it wouldn't

838
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 5: necessarily translate to any concrete revelations. Once these thought there

839
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 5: was a consolidated Epstein list that the DOJ hasn't some

840
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 5: vault somewhere that they could just release. Was always kind

841
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 5: of like, I agree population to get people all exercise.

842
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 3: I'm on the record here at Michael, I completely agree

843
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:36,399
Speaker 3: with you for the political expedience purposes, but I don't

844
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 3: agree that it's bullshit when I have also said it's

845
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 3: a canard to say that there's some Epstein client lists

846
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 3: where it's like, hey, fuck the kid now supports Israel.

847
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:47,799
Speaker 3: That's not the way. Look, I'm not here to defend Cashpitel.

848
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 3: I agree with you completely that the way that they

849
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 3: frame Look, there's two options. They either ginned it up

850
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 3: and exploited perhaps what they claim is the rape of

851
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 3: thousands of children or hundreds of victims or whatever for

852
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 3: politically expeding purposes, or they did that, which is disgusting,

853
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,280
Speaker 3: or they are covering upset thing, which is equally disgusting,

854
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 3: perhaps more so actually on the line, I would love

855
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:06,799
Speaker 3: for them.

856
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 4: I totally agree.

857
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 5: I would love for the maximum amount of material to

858
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:15,320
Speaker 5: come out, because you know what, Virginia, who you happily

859
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 5: conceded was a serial fabulous.

860
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 3: No, I didn't say that. She's a old woman who, yes,

861
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 3: has been proven to it.

862
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 4: Now you don't agree, I didn't know.

863
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 3: I'm not going to use your level of framing, which

864
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 3: I actually do frankly think is disgusting because it points

865
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 3: her as the central character, which you've self appointed. It

866
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 3: ignores the other individuals.

867
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 5: I want to introduce the whole sex trafficking theory fourteen

868
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:38,240
Speaker 5: with the photo.

869
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 1: The photo exists, Virginia photo exists.

870
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 5: Finish your point, Okay, So I mean I agree that

871
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 5: the maximum disclosure should.

872
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 4: Be made and that these.

873
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 5: Concealments that are still in place to protect the supposed accusers,

874
00:43:56,480 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 5: many of whom are serial fabulous, but yet received enormous

875
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 5: payouts from these settlement funds that.

876
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 4: Claims because when when when when that stremely was applied

877
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 4: to Virginia Gouffrey.

878
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 5: As more and more information had to be revealed, she

879
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,760
Speaker 5: had to concede that she just made an enormous amount

880
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 5: of stuff. So I think that that would that would

881
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 5: probably with Extreedian luxury. Uh, you know, it's just whatever.

882
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 4: She didn't She did not live a life of luxury.

883
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 5: She didn't have an ocean front mansion in Australia and

884
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 5: a ranch, and she didn't make it.

885
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 4: She didn't make.

886
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 3: Fifteen suicide bro, Like, yeah, this is what I'm saying, Like,

887
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 3: let me. It was so it was so great for

888
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:39,760
Speaker 3: her that she decided to Let mean, I don't yeah, because.

889
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 5: She hadstic because she got accorded to her a strange husband.

890
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 5: She became increasingly violent and attacked him the local Australian.

891
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 5: That's a husband, and then she lost custody of her

892
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,320
Speaker 5: children and became distraught. I mean, could that maybe reflect

893
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 5: on her credibility that way to what.

894
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,320
Speaker 4: She was not called as a witness in the Maxwell trial.

895
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 3: Reflects to me somebody a pattern of behavior of somebody

896
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 3: who was obviously, in my opinion, abused whenever she was

897
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 3: young and as a child, and that's its credibility.

898
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 2: So Michael, let me let me wrap.

899
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 4: Up with you. Obviously, did I know it's like it's

900
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:12,279
Speaker 4: difficult to admit because.

901
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 3: Hearing smirts somebody who killed herself and who obviously was

902
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:20,319
Speaker 3: a troubled.

903
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 4: Prominent individual for a decade.

904
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 1: Okay, your feelings at there so are mine? All right?

905
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:27,840
Speaker 1: Go ahead, Michael.

906
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 2: The final question here for you, Uh, how do you

907
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 2: explain the fact that you had the Trump administration go

908
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 2: from the big influencer Phase one Epstein files coming out.

909
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 2: We're reviewing Pam Bondi's I'm reviewing thousands of hours of

910
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,480
Speaker 2: footage to two page memo. Nothing to see here. We're

911
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 2: moving on case closed to Trump now saying well, there

912
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 2: are files they were creating a creator by Obama and

913
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 2: Hillary and Comy and Brennan and it's all a hoax

914
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 2: and you know that everyone needs to move on and

915
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,280
Speaker 2: there's nothing to see here. So how do you explain

916
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 2: his specifically changing narrative of what's going on here? And

917
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 2: you know the fact that Obviously, it seems bizarre the

918
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:17,880
Speaker 2: way he's handling this in the worst possible way just

919
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 2: for him politically, let alone anything else.

920
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 5: Well, I mean, I think people in the right wing

921
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 5: media universe are Charlatans, and they exploit their charlatanism to

922
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 5: politically expediently cater to this long standing.

923
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 2: Belief that Trump specifically no I know.

924
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 5: I got it, but it leads into Trump meaning there's

925
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 5: like a pervasive, ever present belief within right wing media

926
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 5: circles whom Trump harnesses for political power, that there's a

927
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 5: pedophilic sex trafficking ring that's perpetually waiting to be uncovered.

928
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 5: That's why they were so into Q andons and that

929
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 5: kind of transferred over to Epstein. Well, but it explains

930
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 5: it in that, like why did Pam Bondi in that

931
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 5: now notorious February twenty twenty five interview with Fox News

932
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:08,760
Speaker 5: say she had the Epstein files waiting on her decks

933
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 5: desks because there was an incentive within this mill you

934
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:19,319
Speaker 5: to dangle the most appetizing little snippets in front of

935
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:22,320
Speaker 5: the audience. Like the beating heart of right wing social

936
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 5: media and like comments sections always believes that there's a

937
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,800
Speaker 5: that the you know, the triumphant anti deep state warriors

938
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 5: in the Trump administration are finally going to unveil the

939
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 5: true heart of evil at the core of elite networks

940
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 5: and expose the pedophiles. Pat cashpertellus to put on her

941
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 5: big point pants and tell us who the pedophiles are,

942
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 5: and so Bondi was kind of playing into that assumption,

943
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 5: and she used, like, in precise language, is she are

944
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:50,359
Speaker 5: these people?

945
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 4: Charlatan's You're not getting an argument for me. I was

946
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 4: trying to.

947
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 5: Make this argument like last year when they were pumping

948
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 5: out this stuff for their own elector or advantage. Now,

949
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 5: I will say, is there a possibility that there are

950
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 5: some additional materials somewhere that could be embarrassing to Trump?

951
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 5: Of course, we know that he was a friend of

952
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 5: Jeffrey Epstein's for like fifteen years. Jeffrey Epstein is on

953
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 5: tape that was released by Michael Wolfe saying I'm Donald

954
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:22,319
Speaker 5: Trump's closest friend or I was his closest friend. Now

955
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 5: could that be puffery by Epstein who loved to exaggerate.

956
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:27,919
Speaker 1: People also him for fifteen years?

957
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, So.

958
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 5: I mean, so there could be something that is embarrassing

959
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 5: on Trump somewhere in the archives here that wouldn't be

960
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 5: surprising at all. Michael Wolfe claims that Epstein displayed to

961
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:48,840
Speaker 5: him like pictures or polaroid photos of Trump like sitting

962
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:51,719
Speaker 5: around with like topless young women or something. That there

963
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 5: was no claim that those women in the photos were miners,

964
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 5: but like Trump was also in these modeling circles.

965
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 4: That's how you've met Milania, right, and Epstein And also.

966
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 3: Michael, I just got to point out, man, this is

967
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 3: the same hearsay that you're indicting the intelligence quote. You're like, oh,

968
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 3: Michael Wolfe, But by the way, Michael wolf is a

969
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 3: fucking serial fabulous Are we're gonna sit here and not

970
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 3: say that he literally made ship up in his book

971
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 3: in fury?

972
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 5: Uh?

973
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 3: Like, why is it that the second hand account here

974
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 3: from Michael.

975
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 1: Wolf I'm not saying it's worse, No, what it is.

976
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:25,239
Speaker 5: You're always that's not it's not it's not here. By

977
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,279
Speaker 5: the way, it's not hearsay for Michael wolf to say

978
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 5: I was shown this photo like he could testify in

979
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 5: court to that.

980
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 4: He couldn't testify in court.

981
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:36,439
Speaker 5: That he was told by somebody that somebody else told him,

982
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 5: Michael Wolf.

983
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:40,319
Speaker 4: They spoke to Alex Acosta two years prior to that.

984
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 5: So it's a different level if you're saying, I'm not

985
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 5: saying it's dispositive reporting.

986
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. Fine, Wolf has.

987
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:48,720
Speaker 5: Shown that he has recordings of Epstein, He has hours

988
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:51,800
Speaker 5: of tape. Vicky Ward as Quo quotes on that record.

989
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:55,239
Speaker 5: Why why is she a worst report? By the way,

990
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 5: Vicky Ward And I'm not claiming.

991
00:49:57,160 --> 00:49:58,840
Speaker 4: That that Trump is a sexual predator.

992
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 5: I'm trying to I'm arguing against that assumption now that

993
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:07,799
Speaker 5: has overtaken these these popular assumptions, right, So I mean,

994
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 5: I'm not I'm not trying to argue that Trump is

995
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:10,240
Speaker 5: a sexual predator.

996
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:14,240
Speaker 1: I agree with him reporting from other people.

997
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 4: Here's the Okama's razor that I tend to use with Trump.

998
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 5: Obviously, he'll just launder whatever bullshit he can to get

999
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 5: through a current controversy. And the way that he's handled

1000
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 5: this issue is really amazing. I mean, now he's like

1001
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:30,839
Speaker 5: voluntarily bringing it up when he calls into these right

1002
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:33,760
Speaker 5: wing like Real America's Voice shows and saying Epstein oaks.

1003
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 4: He's disowning his supporters over it.

1004
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:39,400
Speaker 5: So obviously I don't know, like does he have the

1005
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 5: presence of mind to know how to negotiate this story

1006
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:45,720
Speaker 5: in a way that is befitting him.

1007
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 4: Maybe not.

1008
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 5: I mean he's seventy seventy eight years old now, so

1009
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:52,319
Speaker 5: that could be an explanation. It is interesting to me

1010
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 5: that never once do you hear Trump express sympathy for

1011
00:50:56,560 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 5: the quote unquote victims, like a traditional politician would say,

1012
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 5: we sympathize with the victims. They've been through trauma. We're

1013
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 5: not going to re traumatize them. This uh, this horrible

1014
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:11,880
Speaker 5: person Epstein was a pedophile, sprays some whatever like Trump

1015
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 5: doesn't even make any perfunctory gestures along those lines. He

1016
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 5: just like goes nuclear now on his own supporters. So

1017
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 5: is he handling this artfully?

1018
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:20,840
Speaker 1: You know?

1019
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:22,760
Speaker 4: But like I think there are.

1020
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:25,760
Speaker 5: Some you know, more simple explanations than oh that means

1021
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:30,279
Speaker 5: he's covering up the child rape ring that people accused

1022
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:33,800
Speaker 5: Democrats of covering up, and now Trump is following suits.

1023
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 4: I just don't find that to be that plausible.

1024
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:37,719
Speaker 2: All right, Michael, thank you appreciate your time.

1025
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:39,920
Speaker 5: Okay, and one more thing, like, Okay, I know this

1026
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 5: guy a little heated, and it's genuinely nothing personal against Sager.

1027
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm well.

1028
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:48,800
Speaker 5: I'm waiting for the avalanche of comments denouncing me, and

1029
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 5: that's fine to.

1030
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 2: Quote whoever was Dan BUNGEI and know I think we

1031
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 2: all have our big boy pants on here. So good

1032
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 2: to see you, Thank you.

1033
00:51:57,480 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for watching guys.

1034
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 3: We appreciate it. We will see you all tomorrow for

1035
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:01,319
Speaker 3: the Friday show.