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Speaker 1: Murder in Miami is a production of iHeartRadio previously on

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Speaker 1: Murder in Miami. On June twentieth of nineteen eighty five,

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Speaker 1: drug smuggler Lamar Chester was killed in a plane crash

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Speaker 1: on his property in rural northern Georgia.

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Speaker 2: Lamar Chester died in a very strange plane crash.

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Speaker 3: And when you look back at a nonsensical really that

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Speaker 3: they could have come to any sort of conclusions about

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Speaker 3: the cause of the crash in less than twenty four hours.

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Speaker 1: At the time, the initial explanation for the crash was

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Speaker 1: that the plane had run out of fuel.

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Speaker 3: One of their agents, Frank Baker Junior, was on the

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Speaker 3: scene almost immediately. He had to be there when the

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Speaker 3: plane went down. Among those who considered it more than

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Speaker 3: just suspicious was Lamar's best friend, Ron Elliott, who was

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Speaker 3: at the ranch at the Chicken Farm in North Georgia

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Speaker 3: the night before the crash.

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Speaker 1: Why wouldn't you have a coroner's a quest, particularly given

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Speaker 1: the circumstances.

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Speaker 4: They wanted to see the body, and when they opened

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Speaker 4: the casket, the body had already been crea made.

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Speaker 1: So what happened to the plane? The wreckage?

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Speaker 3: The plane was gone and all that was left was

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Speaker 3: an oil spot on the floor.

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Speaker 1: Hello, Lauren, So I have an update. Okay, Detective Denmark

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Speaker 1: was able to track down Clay Williams medical records and

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Speaker 1: he actually has the file.

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Speaker 5: No kidding. What'd you find out?

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Speaker 1: Well? A lot more than expected. Turns out that we're

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Speaker 1: not the only ones who were interested in tracking down

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Speaker 1: that file.

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Speaker 5: Now that is interesting. Who I was cared about it?

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Speaker 1: Multiple government agencies, fill multiple ones. I'm Lauren brat Pacheco

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Speaker 1: and this is the final episode of Murder in Miami.

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Speaker 1: Six months after I'd submitted a formal request for information

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Speaker 1: regarding the murder of Clay Williams, Miami Dade cold case,

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Speaker 1: Detective David Denmark reached out with news he'd located the

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Speaker 1: medical report.

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Speaker 6: We always hope that we're going to find something in

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Speaker 6: it to be complete, but we understand when it's not

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Speaker 6: because of the workload that's put on each case. We

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Speaker 6: want to find everything, but if we can't, we'll take

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Speaker 6: any little piece of that case because then we can

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Speaker 6: explore a different avenue of that information we have, and

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Speaker 6: the medical examiner is one of those sources. But we

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Speaker 6: always hope to find the entire five and everything that

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Speaker 6: was put in there.

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Speaker 1: In this case, apparently we got lucky. Okay, Now, once

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Speaker 1: you got your hands on Clay Williams medical records, what

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Speaker 1: immediately popped out as useful for you pictures.

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Speaker 6: Pictures is huge. I would tell you it's in my opinion,

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Speaker 6: but I think a lot of other investigators want to

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Speaker 6: see what's going on. And you could study a picture

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Speaker 6: of pictures one hundred times, and every time you receive

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Speaker 6: information outside of those pictures, either from a file, a

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Speaker 6: piece of paper, a witness, anything that regards that case,

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Speaker 6: that picture changes for you. Where you were not looking

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Speaker 6: for something in the background, information by reviewing the file

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Speaker 6: may point your eyes in that direction, and now you

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Speaker 6: have a picture that contains a very important piece of evidence.

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Speaker 1: And so what kind of pictures were included in Clay's file?

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Speaker 6: Those were that of the landscape, which was a flooded

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Speaker 6: area beyond southwest two hundred and seventeenth Avenue, which is

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Speaker 6: way out west Everglades. Basically, it gives the waterways and

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Speaker 6: then it gives the horrifying look of a torsto that

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Speaker 6: has been mutilated by alligators and affected by the sun

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Speaker 6: and being decomposed. So those pictures bring all that to light, pictures.

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Speaker 1: That were likely the same one shown to Phil Stamford

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Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty one.

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Speaker 6: And again when you read it into someone's investigative rite up,

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Speaker 6: it's different when you're reading it and looking at the

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Speaker 6: picture that they're describing, because words can't describe what we

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Speaker 6: see and how bodies are mutilated and decomposed. The detective

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Speaker 6: does their best to point out injuries and possible injuries,

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Speaker 6: and in this case, the key thing is which brings

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Speaker 6: the medical examiner on board is that the detective will

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Speaker 6: point to puncture wounds in the sk of this person,

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Speaker 6: and we think, as investigators, gets a gunshot wounds, so

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Speaker 6: maybe this person was shot in the head, But the

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Speaker 6: medical examiner, being the people they are, say no, this

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Speaker 6: was actually puncture wounds from an alligator. Through that helps

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Speaker 6: out a lot, because now we know he wasn't shot

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Speaker 6: in the head. Those were alligator markings of the alligator

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Speaker 6: biting his head.

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Speaker 1: The file also contained a small clipping from the Sunday,

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Speaker 1: October fourth edition of the Miami Herald, under the headline

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Speaker 1: body found in flooded glades may be missing. Private detective

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Speaker 1: quote a mutilated, decomposed body discovered by Florida National Guardsmen

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Speaker 1: in a flooded East Everglades area maybe the remains of

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Speaker 1: a missing private detective, police said Saturday. There's no way

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Speaker 1: to recognize him, said Metro homicide detective John Parmenter. The

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Speaker 1: body was mutilated by alligators and probably run over by

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Speaker 1: trucks unquote. Article goes on to mention that the nude

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Speaker 1: body was found floating in two to three feet of

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Speaker 1: water by guardsmen while providing flood relief aid to residence. Initially,

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Speaker 1: they believed the body to be an animal carcass, but

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Speaker 1: upon closer inspection realized it was human. Quote. I think

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Speaker 1: he was killed and dumped, said Parmenter, though we may never,

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Speaker 1: because of the body's condition, be able to prove how

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Speaker 1: he was killed unquote. The article also mentions the remains

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Speaker 1: were believed to be those of a white man six

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Speaker 1: foot or taller, but that dental records would be utilized

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Speaker 1: to identify the victim and the possibility that it could

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Speaker 1: be a missing private detective. It concludes with the sentence

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Speaker 1: that quote police would not release the name of the

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Speaker 1: private detective unquote, but it would seem that by nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty three, many others were aware of Clay William's name.

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Speaker 6: By reviewing the medical examined report, we found out that

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Speaker 6: there's at least four or five different agencies that were involved,

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Speaker 6: to include fd LEE, US customs Irs, Marshalls, and of

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Speaker 6: course Miami Dad or Metro daid back then, which will

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Speaker 6: always raise an eyebrow on the detective's part, actually everybody's part,

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Speaker 6: because they start understanding the amount of people and different

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Speaker 6: agencies that are involved. The medical exambler or someone that

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Speaker 6: was in control of that file would document as notes

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Speaker 6: came in and agencies were calling in and saying, hey,

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Speaker 6: you know what happened? Who is it? Is it probably identified?

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Speaker 6: This is something that definitely again raised another eyebrow that

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Speaker 6: who's inquiring, why are they inquiring and what kind of

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Speaker 6: information do they want? Something was special about this case.

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Speaker 6: You know, someone gets killed on the side of the road,

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Speaker 6: You're not going to have so many agencies looking into

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Speaker 6: it unless they were involved in something deeper that we

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Speaker 6: don't know about.

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Speaker 1: Here's Phil Stanford.

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Speaker 3: I think that it's because Leslie was talking to the

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Speaker 3: grand jury about and it looked like Clay's death might

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Speaker 3: be connected to Lamar and these agencies I had no idea.

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Speaker 3: There were so many of them wanted to get in

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Speaker 3: on it, see what was there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, David Denmark said that as a detective, that raises

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Speaker 1: a lot of eyebrows, and suddenly this is much more

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Speaker 1: valuable and interesting than anybody thought. I'm going to turn

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Speaker 1: over everything that I've accumulated during the research of all

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Speaker 1: of this to the Miami Dade Cold Case Division. I

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Speaker 1: think that they will utilize it. They might be able

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Speaker 1: to close out the Clay Williams case based on what

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Speaker 1: we've uncovered, which would be closure to his family because

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Speaker 1: even if Chester wasn't personally responsible for the murder, he

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Speaker 1: was aware that it had happened, and looks like he

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Speaker 1: was aware that had happened before the body was even found.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's certainly a possibility.

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Speaker 3: A lot of that depends on Leslie's recollection of the dates,

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Speaker 3: and that's going to be hard for them to pin down.

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Speaker 3: But I know the family would like to know what

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Speaker 3: happened to Clay.

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Speaker 1: But if Leslie's recollection is accurate, it would support the

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Speaker 1: likelihood Chester and Bob Adams were aware of the murder

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Speaker 1: of Clay Williams before his body was even found. Which

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Speaker 1: adds additional weight to Phil's initial interactions with Bob at intercept.

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Speaker 1: Having an investigative reporter call and then show up in

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Speaker 1: person asking for a man they might have just gotten

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Speaker 1: rid of days after his murder would likely have been

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Speaker 1: rather unnerving, and given Phil's Washington slash political resume, possibly

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Speaker 1: played into their mistaken belief Phil was actually with the CIA,

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Speaker 1: speaking of which the number of agencies interested in the

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Speaker 1: autopsy of Clay Williams the number of agencies lamar Chester

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Speaker 1: claimed in the press to have worked with, including the CIA,

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Speaker 1: the DEA, US Air Force Intelligence, US Naval Intelligence, and

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Speaker 1: the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I did make a request

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Speaker 1: through the Freedom of Information Act slash Privacy Act inquiring

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Speaker 1: as to any files involving lamar Chester or Clay Williams.

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Speaker 1: The DEA determination letter I received back States regarding your

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Speaker 1: request for records on Baines, Clayton Williams, and Tilton lamar

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Speaker 1: Chester Junior. Please be advised that we have decided to

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Speaker 1: neither confirm nor deny the existence of such records, pursuant

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Speaker 1: to various exemptions that they go on to list and

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Speaker 1: stating that quote this is our standard response to such

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Speaker 1: requests and should not be taken to mean the records

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Speaker 1: do or do not exist. Unquote, in light of the

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Speaker 1: number of agencies interested in the autopsy of Clay Williams,

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Speaker 1: and agencies Chester had spoken on record about being involved with,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting to revisit the observation made by Clay's friend

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Speaker 1: Ted about the computers at Intercept.

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Speaker 7: He introduced me to Bob Adams and another fellow there,

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Speaker 7: and I had understood from Clay that these were former

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Speaker 7: intelligence people from the federal government, whether it's CIA, army intelligence,

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Speaker 7: and they had what I thought was an awfully large

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Speaker 7: computer setup. I just was impressed that such a small

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Speaker 7: office would have such a an enormous setup for computers.

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Speaker 7: I don't know what these guys accessed.

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Speaker 1: But the prosecutors in Operation Lone Star had a definite

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Speaker 1: theory Intercepts computers would pop up in the transcripts and

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Speaker 1: connection with the allegation that Chester might attempt to obstruct

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Speaker 1: their investigation, stating that quote, mister Chester and mister Adams

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Speaker 1: had discussed the purchase of a computer that would be

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Speaker 1: used to tap into their various federal law enforcement agencies,

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Speaker 1: and that such an advanced computer was apparently purchased for

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Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars. Does the name Intercept strike you, particularly

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Speaker 1: since they all had such a sardonic sense of humor.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that that was just a random name

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Speaker 1: that they chose, or do you think there may have

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Speaker 1: been more behind the name Intercept Now looking back.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I think that they tried to pick a name

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Speaker 3: that made them sound competent and somewhat mys serious. I

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Speaker 3: don't see too much behind it. There may be, but

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Speaker 3: I don't know if there is.

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Speaker 1: I did think it was interesting, though, that the prosecution

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Speaker 1: at one point claimed that Chester and Adams were trying

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Speaker 1: to break into other agencies computers to interfere with the investigation.

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Speaker 5: Oh, I'm sure they were.

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Speaker 3: I don't doubt that Bob was up trying to do

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Speaker 3: everything like he could find out about the investigation.

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Speaker 5: That's that's Bob.

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Speaker 1: Technology under understanding of its capabilities has obviously evolved, and

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Speaker 1: Happy Miles says, so has our views on drugs, especially cocaine,

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Speaker 1: which is why he've used his coconut grove smuggling days

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Speaker 1: as a bit more innocent than they may seem today.

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Speaker 4: Back in the seventies and mid seventies, cocaine was seen

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Speaker 4: in a different light. Cocaine wasn't the addictive drug that

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Speaker 4: we found it out to be. It was a high

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Speaker 4: end drug for high end earners. The people that were

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Speaker 4: using it were doctors, lawyers, businessmen, Wall street people. It

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Speaker 4: wasn't looked like it is now. The laws were different

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Speaker 4: too back then as far as punishment went. In the beginning,

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Speaker 4: it was a different deal. And it was fifty thousand

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Speaker 4: dollars a key then now it's fourteen thousand dollars a key.

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Speaker 4: So you know, supply and the man, the supply is

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Speaker 4: so great thanks to the government and their effort on drugs.

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Speaker 4: And all you have to do is look how cricket

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Speaker 4: our government's gotten from where it was then it was

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Speaker 4: small agents and dea and everything that we're maybe trying

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Speaker 4: to make an extra buck. And what have you allowed

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Speaker 4: to go on which it has been corruption, corrupts, It

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Speaker 4: goes to unbelievable levels until it corrupts obsolute. We're almost

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Speaker 4: at a point of no return, we really are.

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Speaker 1: You thought at one point there was a way to

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Speaker 1: shut it down. Do you think there's any way to

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Speaker 1: shut it down anymore?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 4: Then let her hercu leam cash it would be.

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Speaker 1: During the production of this podcast, I was able to

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Speaker 1: reconnect Happy with C. B. Hackworth, whose paths had not

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Speaker 1: crossed since their initial meeting at the Ritz Carlton, and

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Speaker 1: I'm happy to report that the two may collaborate on

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Speaker 1: assembling a collection of Happy's adventures during his Adventurers Club

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Speaker 1: and cartel days.

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Speaker 5: You're a good writer.

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Speaker 4: I love what I read all the articles in your

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Speaker 4: wrote back when, and.

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Speaker 8: I was impressed with them.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm impressed by what I know of your

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Speaker 2: adventures and I'm looking forward to hearing more. I'm actually

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Speaker 2: ready to come out there.

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Speaker 4: So I've got to fence that'll write the forward to

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Speaker 4: this thing too.

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Speaker 1: Some of those stories will undoubtedly involve Happy's young protege

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Speaker 1: of sorts, Jack Devo. If you'll remember, Deveau is now

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Speaker 1: in witness protection but ended up testifying against Noriega.

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Speaker 4: Yep testsiflied before Congress with a hood in his face, Wow,

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Speaker 4: with the black hoodover's head.

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Speaker 1: In addition to Clay's murder and Chester's questionable crash, one

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Speaker 1: of the enduring mysteries in this Twisting Tail is the

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Speaker 1: identity of the informant who turned on Jack Devo.

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Speaker 6: Our greatest sale ever Newmark and Lewis's presidential recon.

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Speaker 9: We believe this ring is the largest cocaine trafficking ring

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Speaker 9: ever organized, said Robert Dempsey, Commissioner of the Florida Department

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Speaker 9: of Law Enforcement. The ring was responsible for flying fifteen

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Speaker 9: eight hundred and thirty seven pounds of high grade cocaine

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Speaker 9: with a street value of two point two billion dollars

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Speaker 9: into the United States between June nineteen eighty two and

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Speaker 9: November nineteen eighty three.

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Speaker 1: Happy Miles has long taken great offense at any innu

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Speaker 1: that he rolled on devot.

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Speaker 4: You gotta remember Jack and I were really good friends.

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Speaker 1: Jack didn't know who flipped on him and even asked

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Speaker 1: if you'd done it.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, Well, of course everybody thinks because of the

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Speaker 4: deal I ended up with, and I'm the guy that

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Speaker 4: rolled on everybody, which is in true.

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Speaker 1: During my research for this podcast, another former smuggler linked

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Speaker 1: to the Coconut Grove guys who wishes to remain unnamed,

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Speaker 1: sent me two extremely detailed Florida Department of Law Enforcement

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Speaker 1: logs from nineteen eighty three, detailing twelve cocaine trips from

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Speaker 1: departure the cocaine's origin, Columbia, sight of the offload, and

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Speaker 1: point of entry into the US. The level of detail

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Speaker 1: was so specific that when I ran them past Happy,

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Speaker 1: he assumed they must have come from Devout himself because

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Speaker 1: they contained information only someone with access to Ocean Reef,

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Speaker 1: the US point of entry for half of the trips

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Speaker 1: would have. You were also saying when we spoke about

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Speaker 1: the spreadsheet I sent you about the charges of the

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Speaker 1: different runs.

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Speaker 4: That had to be from a debrief of Jack Devo.

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Speaker 4: I'm sure because nobody would have had all that information.

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Speaker 4: It was just too detailed.

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Speaker 1: Ah, So you attribute all the information on that to.

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Speaker 4: Jack, I would say, so, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because they certainly had everybody's names and all the details.

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Speaker 4: And they have the amount of the load where.

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Speaker 1: And so it could be because Chester shows up on

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Speaker 1: that list, but that's from nineteen eighty three, so he

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Speaker 1: was already being investigated before that.

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Speaker 8: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Chester's name only appears once linked with Little Darby. But

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Speaker 1: my anonymous source added that quote all of the ones

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Speaker 1: stating Rudder cut Key were transported to the US via

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Speaker 1: Darby Island, unquote, accounting for another five trips six in total,

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Speaker 1: half of the twelve My source also mentioned Jack DeVoe

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Speaker 1: was trying to purchase the larger Darby Island from Chester.

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Speaker 1: That would resonate more deeply a bit later, when I

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Speaker 1: read DeVoe's mention of it in his testimony before the

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Speaker 1: inquiry in the Bahamas on June twenty third of nineteen eighty.

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Speaker 9: Four, Lamar asked me he seemed to know about the trips.

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Speaker 9: Would I like to buy big Darby Island.

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Speaker 1: DeVoe goes on to state that they settled on a

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Speaker 1: purchase price of two million dollars and his down payment

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Speaker 1: made to Chester.

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Speaker 9: I bought the island. I gave him a half a

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Speaker 9: million dollars. I gave him several planes after that, and

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Speaker 9: more money and a couple of keys of coke, almost

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Speaker 9: a million dollars over a period of time. It was

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Speaker 9: not all done in a day. It started off with

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Speaker 9: a half a million. Devout adds there was no paperwork.

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Speaker 1: It was a handshake, something he was comfortable with because.

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Speaker 9: We had known each other a long time and that

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Speaker 9: we trusted each other.

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Speaker 1: Apparently, de Vaux was busted after that payment, but before

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Speaker 1: the sale occurred, and the logs were actually used as

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Speaker 1: evidence to indict Devout. All of which makes the tape

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Speaker 1: you're about to hear even more telling. Here's Lamar Chester

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Speaker 1: proving his participation with the FEDS to C. B.

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Speaker 9: Hackworth April.

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Speaker 8: In particular, starting in December, who were working in the

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Speaker 8: Dragon podcast on Dark.

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Speaker 10: These same agents were living on that I mean physically

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Speaker 10: living there total every day for.

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Speaker 7: Three weeks now.

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Speaker 8: It's flat him back and forth to Miami.

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Speaker 10: I think the first who of him, NASA wrote him down,

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Speaker 10: got him set up. There was a lot of things

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Speaker 10: that preceded that. We're not guns where they produced gruns,

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Speaker 10: alphabolos or any other guns on many half done there

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Speaker 10: for their own protection, and then brought on some guns

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Speaker 10: from Massaw that had to come from the embassy because

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Speaker 10: it couldn't come through the custom.

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Speaker 1: That Chester mentions he was working on the Jack Devau case.

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Speaker 8: Who're working Jack Purcas.

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Speaker 1: Makes Chester's acceptance of that million dollar down payment from

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Speaker 1: Devout seem calculated, especially since the man he took it

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Speaker 1: from ended up incarcerated before testifying against people like Noriega

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Speaker 1: and apparently is now in the witness Protection plan. It

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Speaker 1: also lends more weight to the comment on the Georgia

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Speaker 1: Bureau of Investigations crash report that mentions Chester was quote

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Speaker 1: rumored to be cooperating with authorities unquote. Here's Chester in

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Speaker 1: his own words, speaking to C. B. Hackworth about assisting

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Speaker 1: a task Force.

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Speaker 8: Passport pace.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, a drug enforcement for they assigned the pastor was

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Speaker 10: hollow where signed passwork, and that's where I had been

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Speaker 10: meeting them, meeting with them at task force headquarters and

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Speaker 10: walking across the.

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Speaker 8: Street to drug enforcement headquarters. Passports got out in commercial office.

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Speaker 10: Building out in dot of Miami International Airport and right

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Speaker 10: next to it is a new drug enforcement building and

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Speaker 10: passports head like a huge ready room math you know, the.

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Speaker 8: Huge ball chark radios.

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Speaker 10: You know, all set up and rosters, games of desk

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Speaker 10: in the main room, and then private offices for these guys.

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Speaker 8: Each had a private office each other. That's the caliber.

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Speaker 8: Good guys.

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Speaker 1: Here's the response of mister Happy Miles to that audio.

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Speaker 4: Let her up, Let her at Jack. If you're listening

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Speaker 4: to this, number one, get a hold of them. And

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Speaker 4: number two, if you want to know who the hell

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Speaker 4: we're outed you out, it was Lamar. That's unreal. That's

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Speaker 4: just totally unreal. How he's bragging them out, flying them

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Speaker 4: back and forth and bringing them guns, and you know

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Speaker 4: they needed guns on Darby like I need a hole

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Speaker 4: in my head going after Jack. And then then to

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Speaker 4: take a million dollars from the guy to sell them

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Speaker 4: Darby when he knew he wasn't gonna sell it to

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Speaker 4: him anyway, that he'd be going away for a long time,

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Speaker 4: or let me cut a deal after doing eight and

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Speaker 4: a half years and every rattle hell hole around the

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Speaker 4: country testifying against two hundred and forty guys to get

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Speaker 4: his freedom. Unbelievable, just unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: The revelation also contradicted a sort of smuggler's code that

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Speaker 1: Happy maintains. Set the Coconut Grove guys apart.

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Speaker 4: We were in a different league.

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Speaker 1: And maybe that fed into the icarous complex of flying

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Speaker 1: too close to the sun. What was the mistake that

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Speaker 1: Chester made.

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Speaker 4: Well, not having any moral compass, not having any loyalty

384
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Speaker 4: to everybody he was working with. It just shows who

385
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 4: he was and you can't live that way. Everybody should

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Speaker 4: have morals and integrity.

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Speaker 1: Here's Phil Stanford's reaction. Now that it appears that Chester

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Speaker 1: actually flipped on Jack Devo, Does that open up more

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Speaker 1: questions than answers in terms of who possibly could have

390
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Speaker 1: wanted him dead.

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Speaker 3: The list keeps expending, doesn't it. I don't think that

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00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,199
Speaker 3: devote should be added to the list. But you you know,

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Speaker 3: you've got, of course the obvious, the CIA. But then,

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Speaker 3: as Trento writes in his book, there was a CIA

395
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Speaker 3: outside the CIA, and I think that's actually where Lamar

396
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Speaker 3: and Elliott came in. The same guys who were running

397
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 3: the drugs and guns trade in Southeast Asia were transferred

398
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Speaker 3: to Central America. In fact, Ron Elliott had contact with

399
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Speaker 3: them in the Mid East, so they're part of the list.

400
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,159
Speaker 3: Then you have the mob. Chester had borrowed lots of

401
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 3: money from the Mob to buy his airplanes. And if

402
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 3: he was going on trial for basically his life, had

403
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,640
Speaker 3: like three hundred years worth of prison time he could

404
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 3: be sentenced to no telling what he might talk about.

405
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Speaker 5: If he got there. So you have that.

406
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Speaker 3: You have the law enforcement officials in White County who

407
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 3: didn't get along with him. One was in fact on

408
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Speaker 3: the scene of the crash as the plane was going down.

409
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Speaker 3: It might have done on their own. They might have

410
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 3: done it at the behest of one or another agency.

411
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 3: And the cartels and the cartels of course, yeah, who

412
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 3: would have had the wherewithal to buy whatever help they needed.

413
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 3: So far from answering questions, I think the list keeps expanding.

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00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 4: Well.

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Speaker 1: It's also true though, knowing that he set up Devot

416
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 1: and tried to sell him an island and took a

417
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Speaker 1: down payment for it before Devout went away for the

418
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,120
Speaker 1: rest of his life, that would have made a lot

419
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Speaker 1: of people nervous because he was capable of flipping on anybody,

420
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Speaker 1: and the domino effect of that, because de Vaux had

421
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Speaker 1: links to the cartel, so there were a lot of

422
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,880
Speaker 1: people who would have been pretty nervous as to who

423
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Speaker 1: he was willing to turn on.

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Speaker 5: Oh I agree, yeah, absolutely.

425
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: For Leslie Beckerton, her sense of betrayal and loss of

426
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,959
Speaker 1: faith on multiple levels was a direct result of her

427
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 1: experience with Lone Star and Chester, and it set her

428
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 1: on a very specific path.

429
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 11: What happened forty two years ago, that loss of security

430
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 11: of who I am as a human being. I remember

431
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 11: I was telling you about just being humiliated in that

432
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,880
Speaker 11: Atlanta court. It's amazing how just something like that can

433
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 11: just trip you down where you become like a ghost.

434
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 11: And that had such a profound impact on me, and

435
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 11: you lose a complete sense of yourself. You're worthless, collateral damage.

436
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 11: You know you're worthless. It's a wound and it's traumatic

437
00:27:54,880 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 11: and it's a scar. And so what inspired out of

438
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 11: that an education wanting to understand how other people think,

439
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 11: other cultures. Right, The first graduate degree is in international

440
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 11: education and my second degree, which was at Brown in

441
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 11: Latin American and Caribbean history. I love teaching and I

442
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 11: love working with people, so I was able to combine

443
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 11: both of those and as a result, I actually started

444
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,640
Speaker 11: with educational school gardens in Cambodia up in rural areas.

445
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 11: The work that I do and have been doing for

446
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 11: such a long time as my humanitarian work in war

447
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 11: torn countries and teaching train small rural farmers and widows overseas,

448
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 11: and I install nutritional kitchen gardens and orphanages and schools,

449
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 11: and I established demonstration sites, farming sites and all low

450
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 11: tech and the beauty of it is right, This goes

451
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 11: back to loss of one's sense of self that you

452
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 11: count and these people have never counted, you know, They're

453
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 11: just brushed to the side. There's like an anguish in

454
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 11: their faces, and it's something I'm really sensitive to. Well,

455
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 11: the irony is that because I am a woman, I

456
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 11: can go into places that a man can't, and specifically

457
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 11: say Afghanistan, care in Jordan, so I can live and

458
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 11: work with families. And also I'm not a threat. I'm

459
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 11: a woman.

460
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 5: Right.

461
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 11: That allows me to understand, say another culture and other

462
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 11: people their history, and to also establish trust.

463
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: It seems like your path has almost been to move

464
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: into these places where you know the drug trade has

465
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: wreaked havoc. You're almost on the cleanup crew.

466
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 11: Yes, right, more ways than one.

467
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 1: This past summer I traveled to meet Bickerton in person.

468
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: It's like little islands nestled. Oh my gosh, there's a

469
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: house nestled on that island, like a cabin. See it.

470
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 7: Your destination is on the left.

471
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: Now, in her early seventies, she still strikes a commanding presence.

472
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 11: Hey, there's noble, a good why.

473
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 1: Tall and athletic and not prone to artifice. As we

474
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: pulled up, she was sporting jeans and a baseball cap

475
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 1: while hard at work watering the botanist level garden that

476
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 1: frames one side of the rustic picturesque property she shares

477
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 1: with her husband four decades.

478
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 12: Okay, so there was nothing here. Okay, this was all

479
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 12: literally rubble. Okay, there wasn't even grass growing. So this

480
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 12: is all perennials okay. And pollinators. Wow, look at the

481
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 12: little beat all sleeping.

482
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 9: They're nesting in the flowers.

483
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 1: Bickerton radiates a crackling sort of energy. There's a shifting

484
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: vulnerability to her, at times almost brittle, at other times edgy, sharp,

485
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: but always with a bit of defensiveness and self deprecating humor.

486
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 11: And I'm blaming her my mother because I was breech birth.

487
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 11: I came out feet kicking. My mom tied me on

488
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 11: a rope when I was two.

489
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 9: Years of age.

490
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 12: Where you get your wanderlust, Jandra, she says, I could

491
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 12: never keep track of you.

492
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: Inside Bickerton's home exudes an eclectic, creative aesthetic, filled with comfortable,

493
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 1: dog friendly furnishings. The walls are lined with art, both

494
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 1: displayed and propped along the sides awaiting display. During our tour,

495
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: she unwrapped several of them, a series of enlarged photographs

496
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 1: taken Afghanistan during Leslie's humanitarian travels there.

497
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 11: So they build this the Chinese wall, this huge wall,

498
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 11: pomp pom, and then within it was going to be

499
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 11: the farm in a couple of buildings and this man

500
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 11: single handedly, They would throw the mud up to him

501
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 11: in the straw and I've got photos of it, and

502
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 11: he would build them in rectangular shapes, and he built

503
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 11: the entire wall.

504
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: One photo in particular stands out of Bickerton standing in

505
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: the center of a small group of young men in

506
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 1: a rural setting, holding a small sandy brown puppy in

507
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 1: her arms.

508
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 13: You're wearing this beautiful Fusia traditional garb with a sky

509
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 13: blue scarf and a very western looking orange zippo.

510
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: It's noteworthy not just because of the moment it captures

511
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: and the fact the men were breaking social norms by

512
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 1: standing in close proximity with a woman, because of the

513
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: calm joy Leslie radiates. It's fine.

514
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 11: I went all over the world and don't want a

515
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 11: good because I teach and I trained farmers food and

516
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 11: water security, and this place just grabbed my heart and

517
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 11: it's it's second home for me. My mom said, she said,

518
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 11: you're at peace with himself here I are in a

519
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 11: war country time country. She said, You're in your element.

520
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 4: You've found your way.

521
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: It's been an unlikely and unpredictable path that's led to

522
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 1: this point one, intensified by the uneasiness that's lingered in

523
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 1: her life since Lone Star, but further compounded and complicated

524
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 1: by the fact that Leslie met her husband of four decades, Mike,

525
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: during the Lone Star grand jury?

526
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 11: Was it the grand jury in Houston? There was one

527
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 11: other person there, nobody else who was just me and

528
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 11: somebody else. And that other somebody else is a person

529
00:33:56,320 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 11: that I married, and he was there to testify. I

530
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 11: didn't know for what. I didn't bother to ask him

531
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 11: about the connection that we had is that we were

532
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:11,879
Speaker 11: both hardcore sailors in the waiting room, struck up a conversation.

533
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: Now a doctor, that husband was once very much involved

534
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 1: with Chester's smuggling operations, which makes one of her last

535
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:25,240
Speaker 1: memories of Lamar Chester after she was married and shortly

536
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 1: before Chester's crash that much more revealing.

537
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 11: It was down in Key Largo that Lamar shows up.

538
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 11: Mike seems to think that it was just by sheer

539
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:43,879
Speaker 11: luck that Lamar happened to be on the same road

540
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 11: that we were on, which is a northern part of

541
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:53,879
Speaker 11: Key Largo that connects Homestead to Ocean Reef. So Mike thought, oh,

542
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 11: just by chance, an accident that Lamar's following us. I mean,

543
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 11: just so the bumped in to him. I'm like, knowing

544
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 11: everything we know about Lamar, Lamar doesn't do anything by accident.

545
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 11: We went out to dinner with him. Mike must have

546
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 11: invited him to stay over whatever, and so Lamar was

547
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 11: in the house with us.

548
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 1: After Mike turned in for the night. Bickerton says she

549
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 1: had what would be one of the final interactions she

550
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,720
Speaker 1: would ever have with Lamar Chester.

551
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 11: Lamar then in the house told me that he wanted

552
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,800
Speaker 11: me to come back to him, and I was like, wow,

553
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 11: this is what you do to your friends.

554
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 1: How disrespectful that was.

555
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 11: And I told him no, flat out. But there was

556
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 11: something about it was just something about Lamar that I

557
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 11: almost felt sorry for him. I think he knew something

558
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 11: was coming. It's weird. And then he, you know, he

559
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 11: got murdered.

560
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 1: As for Chester dying in a plane crash, shrouded in mystery,

561
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:03,760
Speaker 1: here's c. B. Hackworth.

562
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 2: That really wasn't the ending that anybody had anybody had expected.

563
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: Except maybe Chester. Here's a snippet from one of his

564
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:14,760
Speaker 1: calls to CB.

565
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 8: Hey, I'm not gonna make me run, give me make

566
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 8: me right.

567
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: We've tried to improve the quality of the tape, but

568
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 1: it definitely sounds like Chester's saying they're going to kill

569
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 1: me or make me run.

570
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 8: They make me run, give.

571
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 1: Me Revisiting his extensive recorded interviews with Chester has given C. B.

572
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 1: Hackworth new insight into Lone Star, which he will further

573
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 1: explore in an upcoming book.

574
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 2: It worked out well for some of the targets, and

575
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,720
Speaker 2: then it ultimately, you know, didn't work out well for Lamar,

576
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 2: except to the extent that he he did manage to

577
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 2: extend this whole proceeding and turn the tables on the

578
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 2: government and put the government on trial for so long

579
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 2: that he did live out the rest of his life

580
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 2: without going to jail, without ever doing what the government

581
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 2: instructed him to do or any judge instructed him to do.

582
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,760
Speaker 2: He did live life on his own terms until he died.

583
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 1: In an op ed letter Chester wrote published in the

584
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 1: Gainesville Times December fourteenth of nineteen eighty four, Chester wrote, quote,

585
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 1: the indictment against me was not brought by the DEA,

586
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 1: but is an IRS indictment brought by the US Department

587
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 1: of Justice based on what the government says is my

588
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 1: net worth with the importation of marijuana and cocaine as

589
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 1: probable sources of income. Those issues may very well have

590
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 1: to be decided in court before a jury. I am

591
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 1: in the fifth month of emotion to dismiss the indictment

592
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 1: based on the false ofation of evidence, leaks of grand

593
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: jury material by federal agents and prosecutors, and gross governmental misconduct.

594
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 1: If I am successful with that motion, I will definitely

595
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,800
Speaker 1: tell my story to the public. If that motion fails,

596
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 1: then the story will be told in Gainesville at trial.

597
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:23,359
Speaker 1: In any case, the truth will finally out. Six months

598
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 1: after that letter, Chester was dead. Here's Phil Stamford.

599
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 5: It did continue to trouble me. It haunted me.

600
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 1: What happened in your world after Chester died?

601
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I was back in DC when I

602
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 3: got the word from Bob that Lamar died in a crash.

603
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 3: I did some work, investigative work to make some money,

604
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 3: but no luck with congressional offices or with newspapers.

605
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 5: That what I needed was a.

606
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 3: Job, and finally, finally I got one in Portland, Oregon,

607
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 3: which I guess was the only place my reputation hadn't

608
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 3: caught up with me with The Oregonian, initially as a reporter.

609
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 3: But after a few months they made me a columnist

610
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,839
Speaker 3: and I was one of two Metro columnists writing three

611
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 3: times a week telling stories, which is really what I

612
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 3: wanted to do. It was going pretty well, and then

613
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,399
Speaker 3: here came the Frankie case, the news that the head

614
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,760
Speaker 3: of the corrections department had been stabbed to death outside

615
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 3: his office. Eventually got crosswise with the management of the

616
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 3: paper because I was raising questions I was doing because

617
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,399
Speaker 3: I was doing my job, and I got pushed out.

618
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 1: Phil and I revisit the killing of Michael Frankie in

619
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 1: the Murder in Oregon podcast. It's compelling content, as are

620
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: the book Stanford wrote after leaving The Oregonian.

621
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 3: I wrote several books about official corruption in Portland and

622
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,360
Speaker 3: also in Washington, DC. I did a book about the

623
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 3: Watergate break in, and after a few years of that,

624
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 3: I started getting interested again in Miami.

625
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 1: As he struggled to make sense of his Miami experience,

626
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:10,320
Speaker 1: Stamford decided to start his own investigation Lamar's claims.

627
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,919
Speaker 3: I'd been very skeptical of them in the beginning, maybe

628
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 3: because he just hadn't done a good job of explaining

629
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 3: to me or to anyone else what it was that

630
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 3: he did with the CIA, and it wasn't clear to

631
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 3: me that he even knew that he was working for

632
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 3: the CIA. I think he was working for Naval intelligence

633
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,399
Speaker 3: at one time. I think he was working for someone

634
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 3: who was connected to the CIA at one time, but

635
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 3: he didn't know. And so to come to some sort

636
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,760
Speaker 3: of understanding about what I got involved in, I started

637
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 3: trying to go back over some of this territory and

638
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 3: I went down to Georgia talked to Bobby Lee Cook

639
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 3: sitting in his office in this Somerville, Georgia, littletown in Georgia,

640
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 3: and he's sitting behind his desk, and I say, did

641
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 3: you think the christ was accidentally? Says hell no, he

642
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:06,399
Speaker 3: was quite convinced he was murdered. And I said, well,

643
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 3: tell me what he did for the CIA, and he

644
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:10,919
Speaker 3: begked off.

645
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 5: He said, I really don't know.

646
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 3: You know, you'll have to ask ed Marger who was

647
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 3: the other lawyer just down the road about sixty miles,

648
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 3: and he told me that he didn't think that either

649
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 3: Lamar or Ron Elliott had direct contact with the CIA.

650
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 3: And there's a guy who had won the green Mail

651
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 3: defense before, and he said, you ought to ask Bobby

652
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 3: Lee Cook. It was Bobby Lee Cook who came up

653
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 3: with the idea of the gray mail defense.

654
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 1: So they sent you back and forth between the two

655
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 1: of them.

656
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:49,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I said, of course I already talked to

657
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 3: him and he sent me to you, So it didn't

658
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 3: really answer any questions. And of course nothing I found

659
00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 3: out reduced in any way my feeling that Lamar had

660
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 3: been murdered, that his plane was sabotaged.

661
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,879
Speaker 1: A feeling that would be reinforced by information he'd later

662
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 1: learn back in DC.

663
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 3: Made some phone calls, got in touch with a guy

664
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 3: named Ferris Bond, who had been with the US Justice

665
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:19,799
Speaker 3: Department at the time and on a team working on

666
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:24,240
Speaker 3: Lamar's prosecution. He told me about the time before the trial.

667
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 3: Of course they were more than just aware of Lamar's

668
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 3: gray Mail defense. They had arranged for someone from the

669
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,839
Speaker 3: CIA to come speak to them and tell them what

670
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 3: was going on. And so he said, some guy came.

671
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,720
Speaker 3: They said, didn't look at all like what you'd imagine

672
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 3: a CIA agent would be.

673
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:42,280
Speaker 5: I guess he was sort.

674
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:45,799
Speaker 3: Of shortened, spindling, and put his briefcase on the desk,

675
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:52,839
Speaker 3: And before he said anything, he told them that if

676
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 3: he talked to them they would not be able to

677
00:42:55,600 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 3: reveal his name, and they said that as lawyers they

678
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 3: were bound to tell the other side what they knew.

679
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 3: I guess in discovery it was an issue with that.

680
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 3: And he put everything back in his briefcase and walked

681
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 3: out and.

682
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 5: That was the end of that.

683
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,360
Speaker 1: So what do you make of all of this now,

684
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:17,800
Speaker 1: I mean, that's another interesting layer.

685
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 3: It had been, of course, a very intense experience for me,

686
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 3: and I'd never really figured out was Lamar telling the

687
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:26,840
Speaker 3: truth when he said he was working with the CIA

688
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 3: or not. You know, even looking back at it now,

689
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 3: after we've done all of this, you know, it has

690
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 3: been useful to me to revisit it again.

691
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:41,280
Speaker 1: Well, certainly as the eighties unfolded, his claims became much

692
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 1: less far fetched.

693
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it allowed me to see it made me

694
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:53,320
Speaker 3: see that these things are real, especially with the Kerry

695
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 3: Committee and the press. Eventually there really was no doubt

696
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:04,760
Speaker 3: that there had been in a drugs for gun trade

697
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 3: going on that was somehow connected with the government. Lamar

698
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 3: was anything but silent about it. One of the remarkable

699
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 3: things about this to me is that when Lamar's plane

700
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:19,799
Speaker 3: went down June of nineteen eighty five, there was a

701
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 3: story in the New York Times about how this indicted

702
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 3: drug smuggler had died in a plane crash, but no

703
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 3: mention at all of the grey maial defense that had

704
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 3: been written about in CB Hacker's paper.

705
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 9: Yeah.

706
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 1: That's a very strange omission. Yeah, as I was wrapping

707
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 1: up the research and interviews for this podcast, I would

708
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 1: connect with a most unlikely and surprising target of interest.

709
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 1: You will never guess in a million years who I

710
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 1: just got off the phone with and who I was

711
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 1: able to track down. Who Morgan Cherry.

712
00:44:58,320 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 5: You gotta be kidding.

713
00:44:59,560 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 7: No.

714
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 1: And the good news is we had a really interesting chat.

715
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,800
Speaker 1: The bad news is that he is not surprisingly unwilling

716
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 1: to speak with me on the record and declined my

717
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 1: request for an interview.

718
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:14,919
Speaker 3: I bet he did it very elegantly too.

719
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:16,319
Speaker 5: This is a very smooth guy.

720
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 1: I can neither confirm nor deny that he was smooth.

721
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 5: This is the.

722
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:31,839
Speaker 3: Guy whose name Lamar dropped in the Bahamian tribunal said

723
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 3: it was his contact with the CIA. Ron Elliott told

724
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:43,320
Speaker 3: me that Morgan Cherry was Lamar's CIA contact. Did you

725
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:47,280
Speaker 3: ask him specifically about his involvement with the CIA and Dea.

726
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:52,240
Speaker 1: Phil, I can neither confirm nor deny that we had

727
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 1: any such discussion.

728
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 5: That's fitting.

729
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:05,280
Speaker 1: The once conspiracy concept of covert operations and shadow wars

730
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 1: has percolated closer to the surface over the years, and

731
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 1: continues to do so today. My dad used to quote

732
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 1: the opening line from a legendary radio detective show that

733
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,799
Speaker 1: ran from the nineteen thirties to the nineteen fifties. Who

734
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 1: knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The

735
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 1: shadow knows. It's something that kept popping to mind throughout

736
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 1: this production, but what happens in the shadows will likely

737
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 1: stay there as long as it profits and protects the

738
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: people in power on both sides. As we wrap up

739
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:48,319
Speaker 1: this season, I just want to thank our small but

740
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: powerful team of Nick and Evan and Taylor who have

741
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 1: just brought an incredible expertise and enthusiasm to every single

742
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 1: aspect of this production. And Phil, I just want to

743
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being such a wise, witty

744
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 1: and wonderful storyteller, and so thank you so much for

745
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 1: sharing this one.

746
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 5: It's been great working with you.

747
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 1: We're all so appreciative to the incredible array of people

748
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 1: we've encountered and interviewed during this process, those named and unnamed.

749
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 1: We also want to thank you the listener for your

750
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 1: time and support. Murder Miami is a production of iHeartRadio.

751
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 1: Executive producers are Lauren brad Pacheco, Taylor Chaqoine, and Phil Stamford.

752
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:43,360
Speaker 1: Written by Phil Stamford and Lauren brad Pacheco, Audio editing

753
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:47,399
Speaker 1: and sound designed by Nicholas Harder, Evan Tyer and Taylor Chaqoine,

754
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 1: featuring music by Evan Tyer, Phil Meyer, John Murchison and

755
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 1: Taylor Chaqoine. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

756
00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get the story step move

757
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:00,799
Speaker 1: here