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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Monster Marriage, the icy threats.

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Speaker 1: We are learning a vascular surgeon husband made years before,

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Speaker 1: years before, nearly ten years before, he allegedly shoots his

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Speaker 1: ex wife and new dentist's husband dead in their own beds,

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Speaker 1: their children wailing in the background. Now, think about it.

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Speaker 1: How long did those bodies lie? They're going cold in

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Speaker 1: pools of blood with their children sitting there with mommy

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Speaker 1: and daddy dead. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being with us. Stone

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Speaker 1: faced and cold blooded. A surgeon in court after his

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Speaker 1: ex wife and her dentist husband both shot dead. He

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Speaker 1: knows exactly what's happening, and not a flicker of emotion

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Speaker 1: on his face, not one ounce, not one drop, one

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Speaker 1: scintilla of remorse. How long did he stalk her? As

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Speaker 1: he gets kicked from one jurisdiction to the next, multiple

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Speaker 1: malepractice and claims against him, He looks at her online.

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Speaker 1: She moved on in a big way. She found true love,

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Speaker 1: gets married to an awesome guy. They have two children.

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Speaker 1: They get married in their home. They post a video

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Speaker 1: of it, and there he is alone, alone and miserable.

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Speaker 1: Now we are learning that she quote just had to

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Speaker 1: get out of that starter marriage. It was just for

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Speaker 1: seven months. It was nearly ten years ago, and he

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Speaker 1: brewed and bubbled and simmered and stewed for nearly ten

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Speaker 1: years till he makes an over three hundred mild trek

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Speaker 1: to sheot her dead in bed with her husband, her

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Speaker 1: children in the room next door. This is what we've learned. Listen.

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Speaker 2: She was terrified because he had threatened her life on multiple.

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Speaker 3: Occasions when they were married.

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Speaker 2: She wasn't shy about talking to people about traumatic experiences

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Speaker 2: that she had with her ex and just how emotionally

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Speaker 2: abusive he was to her.

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Speaker 1: That's my friends at NBC. I'm going to analyze what

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Speaker 1: we are hearing straight out to investigative reporter Susan Hendrix,

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Speaker 1: also an author of Down the Hill, My Descent into

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Speaker 1: the Double Murder in Delphi. Susan on this case from

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Speaker 1: the very beginning, Susan, that is the brother in law

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Speaker 1: speaking out. Quote. She was terrified because he had threatened

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Speaker 1: her life on multiple occasions when they were married, that's

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Speaker 1: nearly ten years ago. She would talk openly to family members.

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Speaker 1: What you make of it?

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Speaker 4: I believe as he said, that she was terrified.

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Speaker 1: And how do I know?

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Speaker 4: Because their social media was private. She was very much

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Speaker 4: kind of on the down low on social media, if

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Speaker 4: you will. I don't think she wanted to make her

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Speaker 4: ex angry. I think because the brother in law also

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Speaker 4: said it changed her as a person. He was that

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Speaker 4: mostly abusive. I think it went on beyond the marriage.

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Speaker 4: I think she was fearful of him clearly, and I

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Speaker 4: think that's why Spencer's dental office knew that something was

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Speaker 4: off that day.

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Speaker 2: If any of us had known that these threats were

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Speaker 2: actually grounded impossibility, we all would have acted differently. Myself

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Speaker 2: and many others were well aware of kind of the

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Speaker 2: negative impact that he had on her. She was willing

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Speaker 2: to do anything to get out of there.

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Speaker 1: From our friends at NBC and GMA. That is the

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Speaker 1: brother in law raw miss speaking out what I could

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Speaker 1: have should have. You know what all survivors do. That

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Speaker 1: isn't that true, Doctor Bethany Marshall. If only we had known,

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Speaker 1: if actually we had known they were grounded in reality,

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Speaker 1: we would have done things differently. But people don't live

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Speaker 1: their lives thinking, oh, he's gonna drive six hours and

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Speaker 1: shoot them in their beds. There's no reason they should

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Speaker 1: have known that he was secretly stalking his ex wife

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Speaker 1: all these years.

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Speaker 5: Bethany, the family perhaps shouldn't have known, but I believe

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Speaker 5: Monique knew if her social media was private, if she

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Speaker 5: talked about the abuse and Nancy. This escalated in just

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Speaker 5: seven months of marriage. You know, stalking behavior can start

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Speaker 5: just after one date. The guy falls in love with

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Speaker 5: you and then believes there's a special relationship when there's none.

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Speaker 5: The girl doesn't return the text or the phone call,

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Speaker 5: and now he's enraged. And so when women leave a relationship,

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Speaker 5: they're at the highest risk for domestic homicide. As you

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Speaker 5: pointed out, she left, she had moved on, and that

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Speaker 5: very act enraged him, and he punished her for this

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Speaker 5: perceived rejection. That's what he did. He mowed her down.

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Speaker 5: But I think she knew.

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Speaker 1: Deep down inside. Or do you think she saw him,

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Speaker 1: or she got a weird text or an email and

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Speaker 1: she goes, oh my stars, that's the key, Or do

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Speaker 1: you think it was just a gut feeling in her

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Speaker 1: bones she knew.

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Speaker 5: I think it was a gut feeling. I treat women

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Speaker 5: who are stalking victims, and often they fall into a depression.

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Speaker 5: They're in a dysphoric state, and they become preoccupied with

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Speaker 5: the offender. They think about them all the time. They

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Speaker 5: look at that out their car windows. They're sitting in

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Speaker 5: a restaurant with a new partner and they see, like

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Speaker 5: say Nicole Brown, they see a car drive by, like

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Speaker 5: a white Tahoe and they think, Oh my God, is

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Speaker 5: that my ex husband. So they live in fear Nancy.

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Speaker 5: It gets into their brains. I bet it was in

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Speaker 5: her brain, in her thought process that she was at risk.

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Speaker 5: It was always there and that's why she was talking

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Speaker 5: about it.

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Speaker 1: As we go to air tonight, extradition delayed. What's going on?

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Speaker 1: Is he some sort of a security threat? Why can't

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Speaker 1: we get him to Home Turf to get this trial

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Speaker 1: ball rolling, get the show on the road. At this time,

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Speaker 1: we know the state is building its case against vascular

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Speaker 1: surgeon doctor McKee. Just think about this guy. He excelled

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Speaker 1: in everything he did. That's his mug shot. He excelled

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Speaker 1: at everything. He played football on a very high level

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Speaker 1: in college. He was Danselous honor student. In undergrad he

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Speaker 1: was a star student in medical school. He went on

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Speaker 1: to become a vascular surgeon. Certified to practice in multiple jurisdictions.

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Speaker 1: Just before Monique and her husband are shot dead, he

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Speaker 1: gets sacked with a malpractice suit, a pretty serious one,

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Speaker 1: and another claim that one patient actually lost his testicle

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Speaker 1: because of McKee, very serious complaints. And then he ghosts everybody.

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Speaker 1: He leaves that jurisdiction and disappears to where even a

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Speaker 1: PI can't find him, and just starts all over again

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Speaker 1: in another jurisdiction. Could he move that surreptitiously? Which leads

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Speaker 1: me to how long had he been surreptitiously stalking Monique?

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Speaker 1: There she is Monique and the first starter husband, Michael McKee,

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Speaker 1: the vascular surgeon, straight out to a real pro joining

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Speaker 1: us tonight, Randy Kessler. You know him well. He is

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Speaker 1: a veteran trial lawyer, Emory Law School professor, former chair

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Speaker 1: of the ABA Family Law Section, the American Bar Association,

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Speaker 1: author of Divorced, Protect Yourself, your Kids, and Your Future.

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Speaker 1: Randy Kessler, you and I have crossed swords many, many

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Speaker 1: times in court. Kessler, think about it now. I know

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Speaker 1: you would never bring us up in court about your

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Speaker 1: own client, right, but this guy's not your client. Tell

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Speaker 1: me the truth. How long do you think he had

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Speaker 1: been stalking her in person, maybe even watching them put

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Speaker 1: the code into the keypad and goes, oh, that's her

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Speaker 1: father's birthday, or online, watching that wedding video over and

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Speaker 1: over and over, and there he is sitting alone having

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Speaker 1: his TV dinner, looking at her video and her happy life.

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Speaker 1: How long you think he's been stalking Monique?

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Speaker 3: It's one of two dates.

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Speaker 6: It's either the date that the final divorce was granted

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Speaker 6: or the date that the divorce was fouled. This was

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Speaker 6: his first rejection from what we can tell, right, Like

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Speaker 6: you said, who's so successful in everything?

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Speaker 3: I mean, the pinnacle of vascular surge, the football star.

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Speaker 6: Dean's List, married to a beautiful woman and then she

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Speaker 6: rejects him or it doesn't work, and that's you know,

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Speaker 6: that's what divorce is about. People feel like somebody who

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Speaker 6: I thought was the perfect person, who I wanted to

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Speaker 6: be with forever, tells me I'm not good enough. They're

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Speaker 6: rejecting me. It may not be the truth of the matter.

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Speaker 6: That could easily be the perception that might have started.

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Speaker 6: It might have been when he started stalking her. It

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Speaker 6: might have been when it started the trigger for him thinking,

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Speaker 6: how do I rectify this. He obviously couldn't handle it.

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Speaker 6: If this is the guy who did it, And I

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Speaker 6: think that's that's when it started.

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Speaker 1: If you ask me what you did all those years, Kessler,

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Speaker 1: so you think he started stalking behavior all the way

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Speaker 1: back to the time that she left him. And did

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Speaker 1: you know, Kessler, that she on her little money that

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Speaker 1: she was making, very educated. I believe she had a

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Speaker 1: master's degree. Not making a lot of money, but the

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Speaker 1: little bit she made, she paid a private judge to

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Speaker 1: expedite the divorce proceedings is going to lawyer's docket. Just

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Speaker 1: think about where you practice, Fulton Superior. You can wait

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Speaker 1: a year before you can get a divorce on a

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Speaker 1: dock and be heard, you know, actually get a jury

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Speaker 1: trial or a hearing. She paid herself alone to expelite

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Speaker 1: that divorce. And guess what he wanted. I hope you're

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Speaker 1: sitting down. You needed to lay down, because I happened

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Speaker 1: to know you've got a big, beautiful brocade sofa, a

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Speaker 1: plush sofa in your fancy digs at your office. You

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Speaker 1: may needed to lay down on that. Kestler. He asked,

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Speaker 1: demanded that she pay him back for the engagement ring

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Speaker 1: and the wedding band and then he charged her twenty

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Speaker 1: three percent interest on a twelve hundred dollars miscellaneous debt

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Speaker 1: he claimed she owed him. Okay, no wonder she left him.

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Speaker 6: You know, there's a horrible joke about whyse of the

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Speaker 6: divorce so expensive, because it's worth it. It was worth

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Speaker 6: it to her. You know, we have our rich clients

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Speaker 6: pay for private joses all the time to do it, lead,

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Speaker 6: to expedite it, to do it at their own schedule.

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Speaker 6: But yes, sometimes people just went out and a lot

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Speaker 6: of people were commenting in the press and in the

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Speaker 6: news that it was an uncontested it was an amicable divorce.

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Speaker 6: It was amicable just in that it wasn't fought out

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Speaker 6: in court. And that's because somebody, obviously her now wanted out.

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Speaker 6: She even agreed to pay her own lawyer fees. When

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Speaker 6: you have a surgeon on one side, usually the person

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Speaker 6: making all the money is required to pay both side

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Speaker 6: attorneys fees because it's a marital expense, that's marital income.

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Speaker 6: She obviously clearly wanted out. And you know, when did

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Speaker 6: she ever feel safe?

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Speaker 1: And that's the same Look at that picture, Kestler, Do

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Speaker 1: you see that picture right there that I'm showing off

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Speaker 1: her pregnant front of the Christmas tree. How crazy do

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Speaker 1: you think that made that vascular surgeon ex husband there

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Speaker 1: she is pregnant by another man, which, of course you

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Speaker 1: know what that means, they had to have sex. I

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Speaker 1: bet that drove him right over the edge. Kestler.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but when do you ever feel safe?

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Speaker 6: And that's what tears at me, not just what happened,

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Speaker 6: but all these women out there that have gotten away

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Speaker 6: from somebody like that. She's moved on, she's got children,

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Speaker 6: she's married, she's living in another state.

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Speaker 3: When is enough?

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Speaker 6: When can you look in the rear view mirror and

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Speaker 6: say there's nothing there, It's just shadows and you see

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Speaker 6: cases like this, And there are a lot of people

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Speaker 6: having post traumatic stress disorder just from this story. I'm

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Speaker 6: sure we see women that come back to us and say,

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Speaker 6: I still need to restrain anywhere. I said, but you're divorced. Yes,

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Speaker 6: but he's still calling, he's still coming by. Just a

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Speaker 6: terrible situation, and unfortunately, I don't think this is the

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Speaker 6: only person out there that got this concern.

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Speaker 7: On December thirtieth, twenty twenty five, at approximately ten oh

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Speaker 7: four am, Columbus Police Patrol officers were dispatched to the

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Speaker 7: fourteen hundred block of North Forth Street on a well

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Speaker 7: being check. Officers arrived at scene and located the two

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Speaker 7: adult victims suffering from apparent gunshot wounds. We now know

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Speaker 7: that they were identified as mister Spencer Teppy and missus

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Speaker 7: Monique Teppy. Their two small children were also found in

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Speaker 7: the resident physically unharmed.

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Speaker 1: Straight out the special guests joining us doctor Thomas Cone,

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Speaker 1: chief Medical Examiner, just district to Medical Examiner's office, State

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Speaker 1: of Florida. He is a forensic pathologist, toxicologist, neuropathologist. Doctor Corn,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. I want to address

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Speaker 1: what the two children have been through. Guys. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to get to the news as quickly as I can

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Speaker 1: about the fact that his extradition has been delayed. What

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Speaker 1: does it mean. Don't worry. He's not burning up the interstate,

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Speaker 1: the Ohio Turnpike to get back home, because Ohio does

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Speaker 1: have the death penalty. It was hanging, then it went

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Speaker 1: to Old Sparky the electric chair. Now it's needle death

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Speaker 1: by lethal injection. There's a moratorium on right now on

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Speaker 1: the death penalty, but it's not official. It's unofficial. They

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Speaker 1: can't get the correct drugs to perform death by needle,

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Speaker 1: but who knows, Maybe they'll go back to death by

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Speaker 1: firing squad like other jurisdictions have done, or possibly some

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Speaker 1: sort of nitrous oxide that's on the table as well.

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Speaker 1: That's a whole other can of worms, Doctor Thomas Coin,

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Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about the two children.

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Speaker 1: They're both under four years old. They were heard in

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Speaker 1: the background. If I could get the control room to

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Speaker 1: pull up the nine to one one call where you

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Speaker 1: can hear the children screaming, wailing in the background, Doctor Coin,

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Speaker 1: What would the children have seen, because we know that

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Speaker 1: the husband was shot twice, Monique was shot once, and

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Speaker 1: they have placed the shootings after three am, and cops

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Speaker 1: didn't break in well actually friends had to get in

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Speaker 1: the home until hours and hours later, well after nine am.

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Speaker 1: Would the blood have coagulated? Would the bodies have gotten cold,

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Speaker 1: because I believe the children were in there with their parents'

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Speaker 1: dead bodies.

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Speaker 8: Horrible, horrible, Yeah, I mean I remember one just coming

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Speaker 8: upon the bodies, and depending upon where they were shot,

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Speaker 8: it would have been a considerable amount of bleeding, especially

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Speaker 8: even from a head wound or a wound to the chest,

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Speaker 8: and so their clothing may have been soaked in blood

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Speaker 8: where they were lying. For instance, if they were in

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Speaker 8: the bedroom, the bed sheets may have been soaked in blood.

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Speaker 8: And depending upon where they were shot, you know, if

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Speaker 8: it was an angled shot that sort of hit the head,

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Speaker 8: there could have been a tearing of the scalp tissues.

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Speaker 8: So it could have been quite horrific and gruesome for

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Speaker 8: the children to see their parents in that state.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about what you would expect to see around

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Speaker 1: a scene where the husband had been shot twice in

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Speaker 1: the chest with a nine millimeter and the wife shot once,

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Speaker 1: we also believe in the chest. Would there have been

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Speaker 1: well we also known another fact when the friend came

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Speaker 1: in and saw the dentist's dead body. He said he

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Speaker 1: was half on, half off the bed or beside the bed.

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Speaker 1: Would that blood have already coagulated in say, six hours?

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Speaker 1: Would the bodies already be cold? It's freezing cold outside

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Speaker 1: and snowing, But the ambiance temperature in the room probably

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Speaker 1: sixty eight, sixty nine or seventy.

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Speaker 8: The bodies would have started I mean, had they been

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Speaker 8: shot hours prior, the body temperature would have started to

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Speaker 8: acclimate towards that of the home, and they certainly would

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Speaker 8: have probably still had some rigor present in the body,

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Speaker 8: a little stiff.

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Speaker 3: The blood would have.

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Speaker 1: Slowed down, settled, slowdown, doctor Coin rigor gimman. When the

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Speaker 1: children come upon their mom and they try to touch

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Speaker 1: her or hold her, she's already in rigor mortis.

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Speaker 8: Yes, so her her body would have been stiffed, that cold,

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Speaker 8: and probably stiff to touch her arms and her legs

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Speaker 8: may have been rigid. And there probably was also libra mortis,

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Speaker 8: which is the settling of the blood based upon graphic

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Speaker 8: so you'll see pinkish or purple discoloration of the body

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Speaker 8: on the bottom where it's lying, and so they probably

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Speaker 8: would have encountered that upon seeing the the two victims.

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Speaker 3: Of the blood.

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Speaker 8: Also, yeah, I would have started to coagulate. If it

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Speaker 8: sits for quite a long period of time, you can

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Speaker 8: also see separation of the of the cellular component from

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Speaker 8: the liquid component, so we called serum. So you may

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Speaker 8: see a little separation of that as well. But if

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Speaker 8: it's soaked into the bed sheets, it would have just

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Speaker 8: looked all red.

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Speaker 1: Just thinking about what those children saw and experienced. When

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Speaker 1: you say both mom and dad would be in full rigor.

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Speaker 1: Unless you've seen it, it's hard to explain the only

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Speaker 1: way I've explained it to a jury is that you

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Speaker 1: know two by four right, You've been around lumber, right, doctor, Okay, Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: it's just like that. If you try to touch the mom,

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Speaker 1: her arm is like a two by four, it's that hard.

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Speaker 1: It's that stiff, that stiff.

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Speaker 3: And you can't bend it. You know, it's almost immobile.

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Speaker 8: And so for the child who is going up to

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Speaker 8: their parents hoping to feel a warm body, it would

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Speaker 8: probably feel horrible. I mean, just just cold and very stiff,

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Speaker 8: non responsible, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, doctor Bethany, I don't know how a child, you know,

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Speaker 1: two children under the age of four, what they thought

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Speaker 1: they were seeing. But I can tell you this, I

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Speaker 1: don't care what all the shrinks say. Children remember long

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Speaker 1: before three years old. I have memories as early as

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Speaker 1: two years old that I can identify. I think my

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Speaker 1: daughter has memories before that. How will they remember that?

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Speaker 1: Will they suppress it? Will it come back in dreams?

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Speaker 1: Will it affect their personalities for the rest of their lives.

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Speaker 5: It'll come back in so many forms, Nancy. It could

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Speaker 5: come back as I've said before at a pre conscious,

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Speaker 5: pre verbal level, meaning they have the sensation of seeing

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Speaker 5: a traumatic scene, but they can't really put it into words.

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Speaker 5: They could be walking down the street someday and see

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Speaker 5: somebody walk in front of a car and have a

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Speaker 5: flashback and think, oh my god, that car is going

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Speaker 5: to hit that person. They could become people who refuse

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Speaker 5: to form attachments because this premature loss of the parent

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Speaker 5: makes them too terrified of abandonment. It's going to affect

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Speaker 5: them on all levels. Nance it could predispose them to

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Speaker 5: personality disorders, to drug abuse, to alcoholism. This will have

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Speaker 5: a traumatic traumatic effect. The best thing that can happen

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Speaker 5: for these children is to go into a new family

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Speaker 5: where there are predictable and safe attachment systems so they

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Speaker 5: can relatives.

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Speaker 1: Now, Dr Bethty, that's.

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Speaker 5: Good to their relatives.

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Speaker 1: I think the dog is a is a golden doodle

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Speaker 1: and it is also with the children crime stories with

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Hey, doctor Coin, let me ask you a question.

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about what the children would have experienced

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Speaker 1: and I was out jogging the other night and I

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Speaker 1: smelled a smell and it immediately made me think of

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Speaker 1: my grandmother Lucy that helped raise me. It was kind

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Speaker 1: of a fresh like a cucumber, not quite a cucumber,

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Speaker 1: but something like that. And I don't know what it is.

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Speaker 1: I've tried to identify. When I do smell it, where

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Speaker 1: is that coming from? It must be some kind of

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Speaker 1: a plant. But I immediately think of her because she

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Speaker 1: smelled that kind of a fresh smell, Doctor Coin, Why

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Speaker 1: does blood smell?

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Speaker 8: You know, some people say it's got a metallic smell

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Speaker 8: to it, almost like iron. It's biological, so there are

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Speaker 8: a number of different biological compounds that we produce that

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Speaker 8: may be present blood at any given time, you know,

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Speaker 8: from ammonia type, you know, chemicals just to the you know,

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Speaker 8: mineral component of blood as well. But there is a

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Speaker 8: definite unique smell to blood. It doesn't vaporize, let's say,

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Speaker 8: like human tissue. As our fatty tissue begins to break down,

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Speaker 8: it aromatized. Is this sort of putrid chemical smell that

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Speaker 8: is quite unique, you know, human death compared to animal death.

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Speaker 8: But blood does have a pretty unique smell that I

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Speaker 8: think most of us can recognize.

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Speaker 1: Kessler, I know that you specialize in domestic relations. That's

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Speaker 1: certainly putting perfume on the pig. Divorce, nasty divorce, the

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Speaker 1: worst divorce, the most expensive divorce. You got to get Kessler.

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Speaker 1: But you have also handled criminal cases. Have you ever

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Speaker 1: been on a murder scene.

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Speaker 3: No, I've never had the misfortune to go. And I'm

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Speaker 3: glad we bring in criminals.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad because that smell is something you never forget,

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Speaker 1: the smell of a decomposing body or the smell of

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Speaker 1: blood coagulating. I'm glad. I'm happy for you. But okay,

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Speaker 1: since that's a note for me, let me go to Bethany. Bethany.

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Speaker 1: Just like the other night, when I was jogging and

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Speaker 1: I smell that fresh plant smell, I thought of my grandmother.

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about something completely different, and then I'm

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Speaker 1: just thinking about these children going through life. And then

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Speaker 1: they smell a smell and it smells. Oh, here's another one.

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Speaker 1: I can't stand to smell chrysanthemums because when I walked

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Speaker 1: into my fiance's funeral, it was like a hit me

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Speaker 1: in the face. I hate that smell. I'm just wondering.

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Speaker 1: There's just so many things that affect these children's memory.

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Speaker 1: It can be a smell, it can be a moment.

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Speaker 1: It can be a feeling, it can be anything that's

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Speaker 1: going to trigger this for them the rest of their lives.

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Speaker 5: Nancy, it's called evocative memory. Let's see you go on

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Speaker 5: a trip and you take a certain kind of perfume

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Speaker 5: or product on the trip, and then years later you

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Speaker 5: pull that product out of a drawer and you smell it.

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Speaker 5: You will think about that trip. So anything those children

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Speaker 5: sawce smelled, felt in that room, it's going to be evoked.

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Speaker 5: So let's say they can see the color red. Let's

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Speaker 5: say they're watching a movie, and we know that there

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Speaker 5: is violence in all movies unless it's a comedy. They

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Speaker 5: will see maybe the sight of blood or somebody being killed,

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Speaker 5: or child looking at a parent. That evocative memory is

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Speaker 5: going to be triggered. And then you combine that with PTSD,

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Speaker 5: one of the symptoms of which is flashbacks. A flashback

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Speaker 5: is when you're in a similar situation to the earlier

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Speaker 5: trauma and your brain tells you that you're in the

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Speaker 5: exact same situation.

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Speaker 1: Again.

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Speaker 5: Let's say you're in the war, you are in the

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Speaker 5: middle of an explosion and an ied goes off. Years later,

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Speaker 5: you're walking down the street in the car backfires. All

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Speaker 5: of a sudden, you feel you're in the war again.

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Speaker 5: So these kids are going to be exposed to similar

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Speaker 5: flashbacks and evocative memory throughout the rest of their lives.

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Speaker 9: What's changed since the last person I talked to?

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Speaker 10: There's a body.

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Speaker 11: There's a body inside.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, hold on one second.

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Speaker 9: Let me get you on the line with the medic.

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Speaker 1: Okay, on the line.

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Speaker 10: Appear's dead.

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Speaker 7: Multiple weapons were taken from the property of McKee, and

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Speaker 7: there's a preliminary link from our NIVEN to one of

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Speaker 7: the weapons that ties it to the homicide.

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Speaker 12: Local and Columbus police in and out of McKee's twelfth

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Speaker 12: floor Chicago apartment with boxes of potential evidence, lugging it

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Speaker 12: down to a Columbus PD crime lab van in the

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Speaker 12: underground garage. Residents receive a notice authorities will be investigating

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Speaker 12: over several days and they shouldn't be concerned by the

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Speaker 12: officer posted outside mcke's door. Preliminary testing leads them to

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Speaker 12: believe one of those weapons is connected to the tepe's murders.

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Speaker 5: Did you find any other evidence in his home in

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Speaker 5: Lincoln Park?

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Speaker 7: What I can tell you is that we did search

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Speaker 7: his property and we have evidence, but I can't speak

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Speaker 7: to any specific evidence.

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Speaker 1: They've got evidence. They were observed lugging box after box

433
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 1: after box out of vascular surgeon doctor McKee's penthouse apartment

434
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,440
Speaker 1: there at Lincoln Park, straight out to a special guest

435
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 1: joining us tonight, CoA. Lour Moore, thank you for being

436
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:37,920
Speaker 1: with us, former Army sniper sharpshooter. I want to talk

437
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,639
Speaker 1: to you about the weapons. You just heard Columbus Police

438
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 1: Chief Elaine Bryant state that there is a preliminary match

439
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 1: from evidence found in the home. I ate the gun.

440
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: I don't know where they found it in the home,

441
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 1: in the car, doesn't matter for your purposes. But they've

442
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 1: got a match to the bullets fired at the scene

443
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 1: where they lodged in the body. Did they cachet off

444
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,199
Speaker 1: the wall, where they stuck in the wall, where they

445
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 1: stuck in the matches, where they stuck in the floor,

446
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:10,200
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. They're saying they've got a match. Now, Before

447
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 1: I get to you about how that match is deduced,

448
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about how difficult would

449
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 1: it be for the killer to engrave or write on

450
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: the bullets? Now, you see, I didn't think about that

451
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 1: before the devil kicked Luigi Mangioni into my life, who wrote,

452
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: let's see Deny delay depose. He actually took the time

453
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,919
Speaker 1: to write that on the bullets that he used to

454
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 1: shoot the United Healthcare boss. According to police, then you've

455
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 1: got the fiend that shot Charlie Kirk Tyler Robinson. He wrote,

456
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:58,239
Speaker 1: hey fascist on the bullet. Okay, they've got way too

457
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:02,120
Speaker 1: much spare time for a shrink. CoA, Laura Moore, tell

458
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 1: me how would you write something on the bullet?

459
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 13: Well, Nancy, you could take a DREML tool and then

460
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 13: you take the casing of the bullet like I have

461
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 13: right here, and you could basically just engrave whatever you

462
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 13: want on that casing. But I think you would have

463
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 13: to have a special kind of hatred to go to

464
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:21,360
Speaker 13: the lengths of engraving something on that.

465
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:26,400
Speaker 1: Agree. Now let me ask you this, CoA. What if

466
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 1: we learn the defendant, the surgeon dot McKee, created his

467
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: own ammunition. Yes, people actually do that. How do you

468
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: create your own ammunition? And to me, and I'm going

469
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: to get to Kessler on this, that would leave a

470
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 1: trail a mile wide if you created your own bullets.

471
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: How do you do that?

472
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 13: So you need a special machine that they use to

473
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 13: create a bullet like this, and then you take all

474
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,679
Speaker 13: the components. You take the primer on the back, the

475
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 13: case obviously, the gunpowder inside, and then the bullet and

476
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 13: you press it all together. This is common practice with

477
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 13: like precision shooters, people that do it for sport. Pretty

478
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 13: uncommon just for your average guy.

479
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 1: Okay, there is actually a machine that does it. It's

480
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: a manual swagging process. And you know the reason I'm

481
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: asking about this hold on Cole Laura Moore to doctor

482
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:31,640
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining us out of LA at doctor

483
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall dot com. Doctor Bethany, he spent practically ten years,

484
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 1: eight years plus thinking about her, and something pushed him

485
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 1: over the edge. It could have been these lawsuits where

486
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: one guy lost a testicle and the other had a

487
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 1: pete a shard of catheter stuck in his leg which caused,

488
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: according to him, disfigurement. And then when they tried to

489
00:28:55,160 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: sue surgeon doctor McKee, he ghosted everyone and vanished. Even

490
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 1: the process server couldn't find him. And you know, they

491
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: make money when they finally serve you the papers. So

492
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: he was trying to find him, and he totally disappeared.

493
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 1: That said, that could have triggered it. But all these

494
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: years he has been watching her, and I could just

495
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 1: see him hunched over a table with one of these machines,

496
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: making his own bullets and engraving them out of hatred.

497
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 5: You don't, Nancy fifty Almost fifty percent of all stalking

498
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 5: happens during the course of a marriage, not necessarily afterwards.

499
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 5: So this stalking behavior probably started from the first state,

500
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 5: first of all. Secondly, there's going to be a lot

501
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 5: of behavioral evidence. He probably made many attempts to contact hers,

502
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 5: so there's going to be emails, letters, snail mail. I

503
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 5: think we're going to find all sorts of things. And

504
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 5: in terms of the risk factors for violence, why now

505
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 5: what pushed him over the edge? Usually a demotion in

506
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 5: staff and rejection. So the fact that he was potentially

507
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 5: had a lawsuit against him made him feel humiliated.

508
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 1: At risk of Randy Kesser objection claiming asked an answered,

509
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: I always love that objection at trial. But let me,

510
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: instead of asking the same thing, doctor Bethany, refine my question.

511
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: Let me refine my question. In other words, ask it

512
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 1: in another way. Doctor Bethany. You know how stalkers and

513
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: freaks they get enjoyment from the process of the stalking.

514
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: I think it makes them feel closer to the target

515
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,479
Speaker 1: they're victim, Like writing them letters. They take great pains

516
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: to write the letter and then sneak up and leave

517
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 1: it there or mail just they get some enjoyment from that.

518
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 1: So what would he have derived from making his own

519
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: bullets if he did with the diy st What joy

520
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: would he get from that?

521
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 5: Well, think about kill kits when serial killers assemble the

522
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 5: kit in preparation for finding victims. The enjoyment he would

523
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 5: have gotten is complete and utter power over her, looking

524
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 5: at the fear in her eyes, blotting her off the

525
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 5: face of the earth, so he doesn't have to think

526
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 5: about her anymore, potentially killing her husband in front of

527
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 5: her while she's still alive. So he shows her who's

528
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 5: really the boss in this situation. And I think, more importantly,

529
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 5: a reversal of power. He imagines she has power over

530
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 5: him because she's moved on, but he's going to try

531
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 5: to assert power over her reverse power dynamic. In my field,

532
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 5: we call it triumphing over the love object. He's triumphing

533
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 5: over her every time he engraves that bullet.

534
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany, I'm going back to cole Laura Moore right

535
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 1: now with bullet questions, but I want you to think

536
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 1: about something. You know how people when they're dating, they

537
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 1: get ready for the day, Like the woman does her hair,

538
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 1: puts on megup. The man goes wash the car this

539
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 1: is stereotypical, of course, and gets all ready, maybe buys flowers.

540
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: It's all in anticipation of those few hours that they

541
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: have a date. Just imagine him getting the bullets, getting

542
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 1: the gun, driving all the way down the Ohio Turnpike,

543
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: going through the what twenty four tolls to get there,

544
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: all in anticipation of the moment he pulls the trigger

545
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: and sees her face and her fear. I want to

546
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: talk about that process, cole or Moore joining us. Okay,

547
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: so we've talked about the dye set. It's the machine

548
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: that is used to create your own bullets. And if

549
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 1: he did create his own bullets, there's going to be evidence.

550
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 1: There's going to be a dye set, there's going to

551
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 1: be the material needed to make the bullet, the outside,

552
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: the inside. The process requires a lot of let me

553
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 1: just say material, But how do you make the comparison.

554
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 1: Explain to me how just like that that police chief

555
00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: knows we've got a preliminary match.

556
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 13: So there's telltale signs on the casing itself, if left

557
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 13: at the scene, Uh, that can be traced back to

558
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 13: the weapon. So first you're going to have a primer

559
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 13: strike where the bullet is fired right on the primer.

560
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 13: Then you're going to have scratches on the casing that

561
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 13: match the ejector, and then denser smudges also on the

562
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 13: casing itself that match the ejector. Now these are all

563
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 13: called tool marks, and they match exactly to the weapon

564
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 13: I have here.

565
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 10: The body, our our friend wasn't intus phone. We just

566
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 10: did a well of shit to just sitting here in

567
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 10: he appears said, okay, the other flood she's laying next

568
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 10: to his bead off of hiss in there's blood. I

569
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 10: think people are too more than that.

570
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 2: Okay, they can tell he's opposite up bringing her.

571
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 14: Like how to like like.

572
00:33:58,120 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 3: They looks like.

573
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 10: I can't. Okay, all right, I understand.

574
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 11: A source has come out and stated that doctor Michael

575
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 11: McKee right here worked a full shift on Monday, December

576
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 11: twenty ninth, twenty twenty five, and then had a cot

577
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 11: reserve for him at the hospital to spend the night.

578
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 11: This was the evening before into the morning of the

579
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 11: Tepees double homicide. So essentially, doctor Michael McKee had planned

580
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 11: to stay overnight at the hospital instead of going home

581
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 11: the night that he committed these crimes. And this may

582
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 11: be part of the reason why authorities are saying that

583
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 11: this was a premeditated, planned attack, because he was thinking

584
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:37,280
Speaker 11: things out.

585
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,479
Speaker 1: Theories are like wildfire online. That is from at Matt

586
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 1: Thibodeaux at TikTok and keep thinking. Citizens sluse, you are

587
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 1: welcome here with all of your theories. Be they crazy

588
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,439
Speaker 1: or that was not that crazy? Is it actually that's

589
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: a good theory. Was it premeditated? Obviously he had hours

590
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: long to drive at this moment tonight extradition has been delayed.

591
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: Is he a security risk in the meantime? During our

592
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:16,360
Speaker 1: last live chat during the airing of our program, a

593
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 1: viewer noticed this, do not discount any evidence as being insignificant.

594
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: Let's see. Okay, watch and walk. He pulls to the right.

595
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 1: He pulls to the right one more time in the

596
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 1: courtroom the courtroom video. He pulls to the right when

597
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 1: he walks to the right, to the right, to the right.

598
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 1: There he goes and stands, goes to the right. Now

599
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 1: that's from wbnstn TV our friends there. Now let's look

600
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 1: at the video. Well, to the right, to the right,

601
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: he pulls to the right on every step. Let me

602
00:35:55,239 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 1: see that one more time. Okay. Straight out to Randy Kessler,

603
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 1: veteran trial lawyer joining us oude of the Atlanta jurisdiction

604
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 1: at Ksfamilylaw dot Com. Randy, thank you again for being

605
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 1: with us tonight. Randy, I recall I don't know if

606
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: you remember it, because you were definitely in the courthouse

607
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 1: during this trial. My first bank robbery case, armed robbery.

608
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 1: Of course, at superior level, you don't usually get a

609
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 1: bank robbery because fdi C it's a federal case. But

610
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 1: I got it, and I thought, wow, Wow, am I

611
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 1: getting to try a bank robbery? This is unusual. It's

612
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:38,439
Speaker 1: because it's a terrible case that couldn't identify the defendants.

613
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 1: Cannot assigned by random, by the way, so it wasn't that,

614
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 1: but you could not identify the defendant at all. He

615
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 1: had on a hat, a wig, dark aviator, sunglasses, a

616
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,439
Speaker 1: fake mustache, a fake beard. He was wearing a three

617
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 1: piece double breasted suit which as soon as he got out,

618
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,360
Speaker 1: he ripped it all off. Underneath it was just based

619
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: up the back underneath it and on shorts of t

620
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 1: shirt and he just got on a bike and pedaled

621
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 1: off as the police arrived. You know, it got him

622
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 1: the way he walked because he was slewfooted. He walked

623
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: like a duck. Plus he was dyslexic. And the bank

624
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 1: robbery note said don't touch the owl ram this is

625
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: a roby, so that said. He walked with his feet

626
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: like that, and he sadly took the stand, and he

627
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 1: took the stand in front of the jury. You know,

628
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 1: that lawyer could have put him on the stand while

629
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 1: the jury was out of the room and not seen

630
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 1: him walk. He could have been sitting up there when

631
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 1: the jury came in. I was just praying they wouldn't

632
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 1: do that. The jury looked over the rail and saw

633
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 1: him walking sleoughfooted, just like the bank robber walked in

634
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,919
Speaker 1: feet just like this. Did you see this guy? Did

635
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 1: you see doctor McKee walking pulling to the right every time?

636
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, you never know where it's going to tilt.

637
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 6: The jury or persuade the jury. Hopefully they've got a

638
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 6: lot more evidence than just the way he walks, but

639
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 6: it doesn't hurt to have that in there. And certainly,

640
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 6: you know, video cameras being everywhere, video cameras being in

641
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 6: the courtroom. This is helpful, it's all, you know, adding

642
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 6: on to the prosecution's case. I represent a lot of

643
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 6: men controlling men that my advice is don't go to court.

644
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,320
Speaker 6: And you know why, because then all of a sudden,

645
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 6: your wife is just as equal to you, and the

646
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 6: court will make you do something, maybe not make you

647
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 6: pay as much as you want.

648
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,800
Speaker 3: That's hard for a lot of powerful men.

649
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,799
Speaker 6: And women to understand that the relationship they've been controlling

650
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 6: is all of a sudden changed where they are no

651
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 6: longer disuperior in the relationship.

652
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 3: And who knows if that's what clicked for him or

653
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 3: triggered it. So we're talking about.

654
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 1: Earlier crime stories with Nancy Grace Dave mac joining us

655
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: Tonight Crime Stories investigative reporter. Is it true the vascular

656
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:05,399
Speaker 1: surgeon doctor McKee was arrested at Chick fil A? He

657
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 1: was Nancy.

658
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 9: The guy is just acting like there's nothing going on,

659
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 9: just a regular day at the races, and he pops

660
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 9: into Chick fil A to get his favorite lunch neck.

661
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 9: That's where he was actually arrested, and the ATF was

662
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:18,720
Speaker 9: there on site.

663
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 14: Nancy, I wonder.

664
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 1: Why the ATF arrested him. That's a whole nother can

665
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:28,320
Speaker 1: of worms. We know that the extradition procedure has been delayed.

666
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: Apparently private company performs the extradition process is being contracted

667
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: out and they have a delay. I'm sure he's not

668
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 1: in a hurry to get back Randy Kessler joining US

669
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: trial lawyer. The arrogance. You know what this reminds me

670
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: of Scott Peterson. And I'll tell you why. When Lacy's

671
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:54,760
Speaker 1: DNA was matched to the body, the body of her

672
00:39:55,480 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: and her unborn child, Connor, officers came and they told

673
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 1: Scott Peterson they wanted to tell him in person. Kessler.

674
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:08,919
Speaker 1: They said, we have to inform you that we've done

675
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 1: a DNA match and the bodies that washed ashore it's

676
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 1: Lacey and Connor. And do you know within about seven

677
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:24,280
Speaker 1: or eight minutes, Scott Peterson asked the police to drive

678
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:29,240
Speaker 1: him through in and out. He wanted it animal style,

679
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 1: which means a special sauce. He wanted a double double

680
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 1: with cheese, fries and a shake. It certainly did not

681
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 1: affect his appetite, did it that? He just learned Lacey

682
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: was absolutely dead and he would never have the son Connor.

683
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 1: Same thing here. What did you do? Do a double

684
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 1: round through Chick fil A to get some extra Chick

685
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 1: fil A sauce?

686
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 3: You're gonna make that closing argument.

687
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 1: He got right as part of my clothes. He gets

688
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: the grease.

689
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 3: He's a star.

690
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 6: Pridge and you should sit there and eat TV trays,

691
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 6: TV dinners and do nothing but more.

692
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 3: This was his ex wife from years ago. He was eating.

693
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 1: He turned himself in.

694
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 3: Chick fil A is delicious.

695
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:17,879
Speaker 1: He should turn himself in.

696
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 3: Okay, but that's nothing.

697
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 6: But whether he's eating at Popeye's or Chick fil A

698
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 6: or Church's Fried Chicken, what does that matter.

699
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 3: He's a guy who's got a stomach.

700
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,359
Speaker 1: Care where. I don't care where he ate. My point is,

701
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 1: you know what, doctor Bethany, I believe you could verbalize

702
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,359
Speaker 1: this to Kesser and maybe make some sense get into

703
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 1: that head. Can you explain the significance of this?

704
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 5: Well, I see it as congratulatory, self congratulatory. So he's

705
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 5: been obsessing all these years about getting rid of her.

706
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 5: We call it katathy macomicide. That's when there's a compulsion

707
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 5: to kill and it creates a horrible tension internally. And

708
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 5: when the criminal finally works up the courage to do it,

709
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 5: they're quite relieved afterwards. They're very satisfied with themselves. As

710
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 5: I said earlier, he triumphed over here, he got his way.

711
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 5: Now his world is all in perfect order. It's not

712
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 5: like somebody who commits vehicular homicide by mistake and afterwards

713
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 5: they're rattled and they're shaken and they can't believe that

714
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 5: they hit somebody. This guy is quite happy, so I

715
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 5: think this is his happy meal. You know, he's dancing

716
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 5: on her grave.

717
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 1: Dave Matt Crime Stories investigator, reporter. Why did the ATF

718
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 1: arrest him?

719
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:38,320
Speaker 14: It came down to a lie. Doctor Michael McKee lied

720
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 14: on a federal form when he purchased a handgun in Nevada.

721
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 14: He provided a false residency form of information and that

722
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:52,879
Speaker 14: immediately triggered the federal jurisdiction for firearm violation alongside the

723
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 14: state murder chargers. So the ATF was brought in because

724
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,240
Speaker 14: of the lie about where he was living.

725
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 9: When he filed to that.

726
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:09,280
Speaker 1: Gun okay, did serious lawsuits play into triggering doctor McKee

727
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 1: not that motive is necessary listen.

728
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 15: Twelve weeks before he's accused of murder, McKee is sued

729
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 15: for malpractice by Nevada man. McKee allegedly overseen erry when

730
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 15: an eight point six inch cather shard breaks off in

731
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,879
Speaker 15: the patient's leg. The patient's lawyer spends over a month

732
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 15: trying to track down McKee's serve and papers and has

733
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:28,800
Speaker 15: no luck for the process, server claims. A coworker of

734
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 15: McKee says he just disappeared.

735
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 16: McKee leaves Vegas after the malpractice lawsuit, taking a job

736
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 16: at OSF St. Anthony Medical Center, Rockford, Illinois, purchasing a

737
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 16: four hundred thousand dollars penhouse apartment in Chicago last July.

738
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 16: The complaint alleges the failure of McKee caused the catheter

739
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 16: to share, leaving an eight point six inch portion of

740
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 16: the device in the plaintiff's body. McKee allegedly breached the

741
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 16: standard of care, including lower extremity bleeding, a demon pain, discolouration, disfigurement,

742
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 16: another in injuries.

743
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 1: He evaded getting served. He high tailed it, even a

744
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: process server couldn't find him.

745
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 15: McKee able to evade a malpractice lawsuit for months. As

746
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 15: a process server, it makes nearly a dozen failed attempts

747
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 15: to serve McKee with the lawsuit. Nevada lawyer Dan Laird

748
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 15: files the suit, but serving McKee was nearly impossible as

749
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 15: the surgery group he worked for gave the attorney a

750
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,720
Speaker 15: fake address and the phone number issued with the State

751
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 15: Medical Board for McKee is a fax machine.

752
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 1: What did doctor Caravellas say?

753
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,320
Speaker 8: He said he has no idea where doctor Michael McKee

754
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 8: is now, said he just disappeared.

755
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:40,839
Speaker 1: Wow, so McKee was a ghost. That's from Wsyx and Moore.

756
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 1: Listen to this. A guy loses his testicle.

757
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 16: A prison inmate of Nevada claims McKee caused him to

758
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 16: have his left testicle removed. The blank of alleges he

759
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 16: suffered a work related injury while incarcerated, causing pain and

760
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 16: swelling in his left testicle. McKee was part of a

761
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:59,320
Speaker 16: medical review panel that approved the inmates medical care, resulting

762
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 16: in a surgeon with limited experience to be used for

763
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 16: the surgery. After a year of pain, repeated procedures to

764
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 16: drain fluid a proper corrective surgery was performed, but the

765
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 16: delay and treatment resulted in the permanent removal of the

766
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:13,320
Speaker 16: inmates left testicle.

767
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 1: Repeated draining of your testicle. Okay, doctor Thomas Coin, Were

768
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: these lawsuits enough to trigger him into doing something horrible

769
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 1: like a double murder? Thinking she caused all of this

770
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: strife in my life, it's all her fault. Blah blah blah.

771
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:38,839
Speaker 1: A shard of a catheter left in your leg, a

772
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 1: surgical procedure to amputate your testicle. I guess he was

773
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 1: under stress. How do you end up with a catheter

774
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 1: shard stuck in your leg? And why do you have

775
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:52,359
Speaker 1: your testicle cut off?

776
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 3: Well?

777
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 8: I mean so if you if you are performing a

778
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:01,319
Speaker 8: surgery on someone, obviously, especially with vasculars surgery, where you

779
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 8: are instrumenting or entering into or repairing a blood vessel,

780
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 8: oftentimes that you may insert a catheter to maintain the

781
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 8: patency or keep that vessel open while you're operating on it.

782
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 8: I don't know how in this particular case this occurred,

783
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:19,840
Speaker 8: but it's possible that a shard of that catheter was

784
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 8: dislodged during surgery, was accidentally cut off and left in

785
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:27,320
Speaker 8: or just simply left in accidentally rather than being removed

786
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 8: when the surgery was complete. And that if that, if

787
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 8: that catheter is left in place, they can actually block

788
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 8: the normal blood flow within that vessel, causing eschemia as

789
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 8: we say, or lack of blood flow to the testicle,

790
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 8: which could cause that testicle to die.

791
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 1: It can be very two different cases, doctor Coin. There's

792
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:48,959
Speaker 1: the one case with the Cather's shar left in the leg.

793
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 1: Then there's the other cases. Innate, he has this testicle amputated.

794
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 8: Oh that I don't know. I don't know how that

795
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 8: process happened. But the the catheter, I mean, listen, there's

796
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 8: been plenty of cases throughout you know, you know my

797
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:10,279
Speaker 8: time during training where there's been instruments left in patients,

798
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 8: wrong sides operated on, you know, small little cloth pieces

799
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 8: left inside of body during a surgery. So it does happen,

800
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,879
Speaker 8: and generally it's just you know, carelessness. You know, you're

801
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 8: worried too much about closing or a bleeding area and

802
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 8: you leave a catheter in place. And so that's probably

803
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:35,720
Speaker 8: what happened in that instance. As to the testicle incident, certainly,

804
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 8: testicular torsion can happen in males. I don't know what

805
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:40,279
Speaker 8: went wrong there.

806
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 1: I don't want to think about what went wrong there.

807
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 1: But I know this, Randy Casser. When I graduated from

808
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:47,320
Speaker 1: law school, I never thought that I would put testical

809
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 1: amputated in the same sentence. You just never know, right.

810
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 6: There's a lot there that we're on air and I

811
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 6: can't talk about it. But you know, Nancy, you were

812
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:57,840
Speaker 6: tough as a prosecutor, and that's I'll leave it at that.

813
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 1: Guys, the state is still building its case. If you

814
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 1: know or think you know anything about this case, if

815
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 1: you saw something, heard something, please call six one four

816
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 1: six four five two two two eight repeat six one four, six, four,

817
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 1: five two two two eight. Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye friend,