1 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of You 2 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: Need Therapy Podcast. My name is Cat. I am the host. 3 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,639 Speaker 1: I am a therapist. I'm a licensed therapist. However, quick 4 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: reminder before we get into the good stuff that this 5 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: podcast does not, cannot, and will not serve as a 6 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: replacement for therapy or any mental health services out there. However, 7 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: I always like to say this podcast might help you. 8 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,559 Speaker 1: It might be a tool in your toolbox, and it 9 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:43,240 Speaker 1: might encourage you to go actually seek out professional mental 10 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: health services. So it doesn't mean it can't be helpful, 11 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 1: it just does not therapy itself. Now, today we have 12 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: a pretty I want to say exciting topic. It's not 13 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:57,639 Speaker 1: an exciting topic. I just think this is something that 14 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: is very prevalent in the world. We're talking about this 15 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: thing a lot um We're seeing a lot of content 16 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: around this thing a lot. There's a lot of like 17 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: misinformation about this and so I have done an episode 18 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: on this topic before, but not in this way. So 19 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about it in a different way. 20 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: And the topic is narcissism. Today we're gonna be talking 21 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: about narcissism in the workplace. And like I just said, 22 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: there's a lot of content out around narcissism and relationships 23 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: and maybe even with families and parents, but we really 24 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 1: don't tend to talk enough about narcissism in the workplace 25 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: and what happens when we have a leader that has 26 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: some of these traits or maybe even the actual personality disorder. 27 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: So I wanted to take some dedicated time to spend 28 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 1: talking about it. Because we're more likely to engage in 29 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: experience narcisism in our jobs than in our relationships romantically 30 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: than in our parents because we only have two parents 31 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: and we are not dating as many people as we 32 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: might be working with. Well, that might not be true 33 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: for everybody, but it's something that you're more likely to 34 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 1: bump up against. So today we are going to talk 35 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: about what narcissism in the workplace looks like, what to 36 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 1: do if you find yourself dealing or working with somebody 37 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 1: who takes on a lot of these traits, and give 38 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: you some insight that you can trust. So before we 39 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: get into this very very very important topic, it is 40 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,239 Speaker 1: also very very very important that we define what we're 41 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: talking about here. As I have said before in the 42 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: episode where I have talked about narcissism in the past. 43 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: There is a difference in having some narcissistic traits and 44 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: also having a narcissistic personality disorder. First starters, we all 45 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 1: need some of these traits to survive, but traits alone 46 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: are very different than the traits combined. There is a 47 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: such thing as a healthy amount of narcissism. We need 48 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: to be able to feel confident and successful, and we 49 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: need the ability to also relationally connect, which is what 50 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: might be missing when you're actually in the personality disorder realm. Now, 51 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: I do think this is and I talked about this 52 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: more in the episode that I did um I think 53 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 1: two years ago on narcissism. But I think one thing 54 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 1: that has been happening now, and this happens with a 55 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: lot of just like words and things that are being 56 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: put out into the public. More so, there we were 57 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:27,079 Speaker 1: helping people understand certain things about mental health, and so 58 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 1: then these things kind of get convoluted and oversimplified, and 59 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 1: I think sometimes we might be labeling somebody as a 60 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: narcissist or somebody that has narcissistic personality disorder because we 61 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: don't really want to look at our stuff, and then 62 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: we get to like, say, the victim of that possible 63 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: abuse rather than looking at me like that guy is 64 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: just like a jerk or that girl is just a jerk, 65 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: and we don't get along and I need to like 66 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: move on and set some boundaries. So just to put 67 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: this out there, just because somebody's mean to you, it 68 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: does not mean that they have a personality disorder. Some 69 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: people are just and like also, some people just like 70 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: don't like us, and that's okay. Like, I think that 71 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: one thing that I wish we could work on is 72 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: this like resiliency to cope and deal with the fact that, like, 73 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: some people just won't like us, and that doesn't have 74 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: to mean anything other than like we're not their cup 75 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: of tea any who Z. Now, with that, I will 76 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: say that there is a rise in narcissism happening in 77 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: our culture. I don't have the reasoning for that, but 78 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: we are seeing more of that. I think because we 79 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:33,919 Speaker 1: might be talking about it more. There could be a 80 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: lot of things that factor into why we're seeing it more. 81 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: I think that the self esteem work that we're trying 82 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: to like pump up in kids is kind of sometimes 83 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 1: backfiring in ways That might be part of it. But yeah, 84 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 1: we are labeling people as these things more often and 85 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: a lot of times it's not really correct, but sometimes 86 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: it is. So I don't want to be like all 87 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:56,919 Speaker 1: or nothing there. So what does narcissism mean, Well, the word, 88 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: the basic sense, it means like self worship stands for 89 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: this desire to be loved and cared for, and it 90 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: just from the outside looks like selfishness, having a sense 91 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 1: of entitlement, a lack of empathy, and a need for admiration. Again, 92 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: we all have those traits and we all go through 93 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 1: the stages of narcissism. It's part of our development. And 94 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:17,919 Speaker 1: we can all at times have a lack of empathy, 95 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: we can all at times be selfish, we can all 96 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: at times like want and desire admiration. Like those are 97 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 1: normal things alone. It's when it's combined and when it's 98 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 1: pervasive that it becomes an actual personality disorder. And a 99 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: lot of times too, when you just look at these 100 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 1: traits and that's why, like you can't really diagnose something 101 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: like this in somebody who is an adolescent. It just 102 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: like looks like adolescent behavior, like the selfishness. It's like 103 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: they can't perspective take they're just like vary in their 104 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: own lane. And that's because like they're developmentally not there 105 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: yet and like their brains haven't fully developed. So when 106 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: you see that in a kid and you're like, they're 107 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,679 Speaker 1: acting like a kid, but they're an adult, that's where 108 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: it becomes this pervasive pattern and they don't go out 109 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: of that stage. They don't get out of that developmental stage, 110 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 1: and then that does sometimes end up developing into a 111 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: full blown personality disorder. So narcissistic personality disorder is one 112 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: of ten personality disorders, which a lot of people don't 113 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: know that there are ten of them. Yeah, we only 114 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: hear about a couple of them. Again, personality disorders are consistent, 115 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 1: they're long term, they're pervasive, and their traits impact people 116 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 1: in their interpersonal relationships. Narcissistic personality disorder is not sometimes situation. 117 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:34,559 Speaker 1: It's an all the time thing. So somebody might act 118 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: in narcissistic ways, it does not mean that they have 119 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: narcissistic personality disorder, because narcissistic personality disorder is something that 120 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: follows them around everywhere they go. To have this disorder, 121 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: the traits of narcissism have to be to a certain 122 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: degree where it infiltrates and causes an impairment in their relationships. 123 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: You have to meet certain criteria, and again it has 124 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: to be pervasive, meaning it's ongoing, it's continual. It's not 125 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: just in some circumstances or once in a while. It's 126 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 1: literally who the person is. Two major keys of narcissism 127 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: are the grandiosity and the lack of empathy. So the 128 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,239 Speaker 1: lack of empathy means an inability to care about another 129 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: person's like pain or experiences. And then the grandiosity is 130 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: just like they're thinking and their thoughts and their standpoint 131 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: that like they are more important or greater than the 132 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: people around them in every situation. So in the d 133 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: s M five, which is the Diagnostic Statistical Manual of 134 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: Mental disorders, the d s M five, we are in 135 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: the fifth edition, and I'm assuming we're gonna have a 136 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: new edition coming out somewhat soon. But that is where 137 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: mental health professionals go to help with the diagnosis of 138 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: mental disorders obviously, So in the d s M five, 139 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: this is what you have to have in order to 140 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: meet the criteria to be diagnosed with this. So in 141 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: a diagnostic criteria right below, it says a pervasive pattern 142 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: of grandiosity in fantasy or behavior, need for admiration, and 143 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: lack of empathy beginning by early adulthood and present in 144 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: a variety of contexts, as indicated by five or more 145 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: of the following. So the things that I'm about to read, 146 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: you have to have at least five of them. You 147 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: can have as many as you need, but you have 148 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 1: to have five of these to actually meet the criteria. 149 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: So One a grandiose sense of self importance, for example, 150 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: exaggerates achievement and talents, expects to be recognized as superior. 151 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:39,199 Speaker 1: Two is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, 152 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: or ideal love that one is really fun and interesting. 153 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: Three believes that he or she is special and unique 154 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: and can only be understood by or should associate with, 155 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: other special or high status people or institutions. Four requires 156 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: excessive admiration. Five has a sense of entire idle mint, 157 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 1: for example, unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic 158 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 1: compliance with his or her expectations. Number six is interpersonally exploitive. 159 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: This means takes advantage of others to achieve his or 160 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: her ends. Number seven lacks empathy, is unwilling to recognize 161 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: or identify with the feelings and needs of others. So 162 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: I want to take a little side note here. So 163 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: the lack of empathy is very interesting because sometimes people 164 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: will say, well, they have empathy. Look, they're so nice, 165 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 1: they're so kind, they do this, they that they cried. 166 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: Somebody with this personality disorder also has the ability to 167 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: act and fake it. So just because they look like 168 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: they have empathy, they might not really have empathy. You 169 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 1: have to kind of like really look at it from 170 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: all corners. Number eight is often envious of others or 171 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: believes that others are envious of him or her, and 172 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 1: number nine shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes. What I 173 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 1: think is also really interesting note is according to the 174 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: d s M, because you'll hear more people talk about 175 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: narcissists and people that are acting like narcissists, and people 176 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 1: that they're like they have narcissistic personalities order, you'll hear 177 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: more of that kind of like kind of lean towards men. 178 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: And the interesting thing is that in the d s M, 179 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: it says of those diagnosed with narcissistic personalities Order fifty 180 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: two sevent our mail so it just tends to be 181 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: more men. It just kind of is what it is. 182 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: I don't have a reason for that right now, but 183 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: if you're like, oh, it feels like it's always men, 184 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: it usually is. And that's why sometimes you'll hear people 185 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: talking about this topic and it will kind of be 186 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: skewed that way. But it's just because it just is 187 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: what it is. Now, as we go through this and 188 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:43,959 Speaker 1: we're talking about what it looks like, I'm going to 189 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: kind of be taking the stance of talking about it 190 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: like it's like a boss. And the reason I'm doing 191 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: that is because these kinds of people are high achieving 192 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 1: and it's due to their personality traits, right, So they're 193 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: often just naturally people who look to be leaders. And 194 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: this I think is part also due to their fragile 195 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: sense of self and their low self esteem because they 196 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: have to achieve things they feel better about themselves and 197 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: put on that show and so the outside doesn't match 198 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 1: the inside of what they're actually feeling. Um, so it 199 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: has to do with just like who they are and 200 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: the qualities that they have. As somebody with this personality 201 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: disorder does help them get to the top. They aren't 202 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 1: so much leading though for the greater good, even though 203 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: they might be on a team or working for a company, 204 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: or maybe even start their own company that is on 205 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: the outside. This like do good company. They are really 206 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 1: leading for admiration or just like leading for the admiration 207 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: of leading. This is why this is so toxic and 208 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: team environments because these people can and will be ruthless, 209 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 1: and it diminishes the entire point of working on and 210 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: in a team. I was reading this article online titled 211 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: the Damage Done Dealing with Narcissists in the Workplace. It's 212 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,319 Speaker 1: written by a guy named Brian O'Connell and it was 213 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: published in February, and there's this quote in there that 214 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: I want to read because it speaks to exactly that. 215 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: And here this narcissistic leaders affect the core elements of 216 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: organizations and their impact on society, said Jennifer Chapman, the 217 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: Paul J. Cortess Distinguished Professor of Management at the University 218 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: of California, Berkeley and the lead author of the study. 219 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: Companies organized because they can do something together that no 220 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: individual could accomplish alone. When narcissistic leaders undermine collaboration, they 221 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: by definition, reduced the effectiveness of an organization and that's 222 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: just like really frustrating, and that it will get more 223 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: frustrating as we go more into how like to get 224 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: out of this and what to do because there's not 225 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: like a lot we can do to change these people. 226 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 1: But also what is really annoying and can be very 227 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: frustrating is that to the outside, the leader might look amazing, 228 00:12:54,960 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: very ambitious, super charming, outgoing doing things for the great good. 229 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: Like I said before, they are so wonderful at putting 230 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: on a show. And that's what's really important is to 231 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: remind yourself it's a show. It's a show. It's a show. 232 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:12,199 Speaker 1: They are great actors and are calculated, and if you're 233 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,839 Speaker 1: somebody who is in the space where you're seeing the 234 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: damage and you kind of have like awoken to what 235 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: is happening, what's not super helpful is to get caught 236 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: up in their reputation and let that wear you down 237 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: because there's really not a ton you can do about it, 238 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 1: And when you try to do something about it, when 239 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: you try to expose them, a lot of times what 240 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: will happen is you just get pulled into the chaos, 241 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: and that's what that person wants. Then you end up 242 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: looking like the bad guy. Again, that's what that person wants. 243 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,319 Speaker 1: So remember that you are allowed to stay in your lane, 244 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: and if you can't, that might be a sign that 245 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: you need to go find a new pool to swimming. 246 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: I guess the lanes could be a track, so maybe 247 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: you need to find another track to run on. You know, 248 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: you get what I'm saying. So now, a true narcissist 249 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 1: will do whatever they need to do to get to 250 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: the top, to get to where they want to go. 251 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: You can't make sense of their behavior, which is a 252 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: lot of times I need you guys to really hear 253 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: that you can't really make sense of their behavior because 254 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: it doesn't make sense when in the context of healthy relationships. 255 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: It only makes sense in the context of chaos and toxicity. 256 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: So you might find yourself saying things like how can 257 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: they do that? Or how can they say X when 258 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: they just did why? They end up being very contradictory 259 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: because again there's a lot of manipulation involved, and something 260 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: that they do is they confuse people. And they're such 261 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: good actors that literally they can convince someone that they 262 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 1: are animal advocates while they're like wearing like a full 263 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: fur coat or like even like a full for leather 264 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: jump suit or something like that, and they're like, oh, 265 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: I stand for PETA, Like it doesn't make sense. But 266 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: then if you were to be like, but you're wearing leather, 267 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 1: they'd be like, no, I'm not, and you'd be like, 268 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: yes you are, and they'd like I'm literally not. To 269 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: the point where you're like am I seeing something I'm 270 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: not seen? Then there's that confusion and so by default 271 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: they just end up winning. So before we talk about 272 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: what to do, let's talk about how to spot this? 273 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: What does it actually look like? At work? And I 274 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: do want to say this because I've tried to get 275 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: this person on the show. Well I haven't tried, but 276 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: I've asked somebody to help me try. But there's a 277 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: woman named Dr Romney. She's like all over the internet 278 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: these days, and she's an expert in narcissism and she 279 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: has a lot of information on YouTube and Instagram and 280 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: all over the web. So if you were like I 281 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: want more of this, just literally google Dr Romney. She 282 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: has tons of stuff that goes into much greater detail 283 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: when it comes to this podcast. Okay, so what does 284 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: it look like? So Number one, you have this like 285 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: very classically like classic narcissist person, and that's the kind 286 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: of person who's like loud in your face. They're the 287 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: kind of person that will yell, they'll talk overtly degrading 288 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: or condescendingly. They are the kind of person that will 289 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: just like brate somebody or whoever is around them. And 290 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: this kind of person might have a pattern of making 291 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: like unreasonable demands and they will feel like overtly abusive 292 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: and bad. So that's one type, and I think that 293 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: I don't want us to pigeonhole ourselves into like that's 294 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: a narcissist and that's all that there is, because that's 295 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: just one type. There's also other types, and you'll see 296 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: it in different ways. So that's the kind that we've 297 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 1: like traditionally seen and known as that's a narcissist. Then 298 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: you have this other kind that I honestly think is 299 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: more common but harder to really identify and then accept 300 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: as reality because they play such a good game. And 301 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: this person is going to use love bombing, and if 302 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: you don't know what that is, love bombing is when 303 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: in the beginning of a relationship, it's like the best 304 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: thing ever and they will just like go above and 305 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: beyond and like this is the greatest, And when it's 306 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: in a relationship, it's like, oh my gosh, she's like 307 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: that's a good morning and good night every day. And 308 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: he bought me these skips and he took me on 309 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: this trip and he said this, and he made me 310 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 1: this amazing meal, and he did this, and he did 311 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 1: that and let on all the things, and then like 312 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 1: you commit to him, and then like all of a sudden, 313 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:13,919 Speaker 1: he's not responsive or mean or this or that, and 314 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: you're like what happened? Because they kind of like pulled 315 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: you in that with that initial and hook you and 316 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: then the whole relationship is spent. How do I get 317 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: back to how it was? In a work environment, that 318 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: might look like somebody bringing you on the team and 319 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: welcoming you in a way that feels so freaking amazing. 320 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 1: It's like You're going to be the team member that 321 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,679 Speaker 1: changes this company. I've never been able to find somebody 322 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: like you, and oh my gosh, I can't wait for 323 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 1: all the amazing things that you're gonna do. And they 324 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 1: might want to spend time with you, and you might 325 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: be like tagged in on these like special things that 326 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 1: like not all the other employees get to know about 327 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: and they confide in you, and they do this thing 328 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 1: that makes you really really really feel special that like 329 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: naturally we're all going to just like lean towards liking 330 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: like why wouldn't you want to feel special like that? However, 331 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: before you know it, that kind of just like stops 332 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 1: and you look like around the corner and you see 333 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,640 Speaker 1: that there's like another special person. So there's somebody else 334 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: that's getting those perks that you originally had gotten, and 335 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 1: it's like you were dropped like nothing, You've been discarded, 336 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,439 Speaker 1: which I've talked about in the other episode of Like 337 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: that's part of the process. Once they extract what they 338 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 1: need from you, then they discard you and they move you. 339 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,120 Speaker 1: They move on to somebody else that has something else 340 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 1: that they need. And something very very tricky that is 341 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 1: very very important to mention here is that oftentimes people 342 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: who are not actually in this situation, like somebody who's 343 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: like looking at what you're going through from an outside perspective, 344 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 1: they'll say, when they hear something like this happening, well, 345 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,680 Speaker 1: I mean, if they don't treat you well, then just leave. 346 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 1: Well it's not that easy because one of the ways 347 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: that they may have engaged in some of this love bombing, 348 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: is they might have given you this insane like package, 349 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: like they might overpay you and sell or you're maybe 350 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: you have all these perks, so you're in this job 351 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: that has all these cushed things, but it's also sucking 352 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:07,920 Speaker 1: your soul. Well, it's not as simple as just leave, 353 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: because maybe they're like over paying you in a way 354 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: that you would never be able to find a job 355 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,360 Speaker 1: with your experience that will actually pay you that much money. 356 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 1: And hey, maybe you have built pay and maybe you 357 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 1: have a family to support. I don't know, it might 358 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:23,360 Speaker 1: not be always just an easy option. And so in 359 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 1: that sense, the narcissist has like bought your loyalty, which 360 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: is like a really nice and like special play that 361 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: they have put into action because they've kind of like 362 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: been a couple of steps ahead. They're like, well, when 363 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: I discard them, I need to make sure that they 364 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,199 Speaker 1: won't leave me. So I'm going to kind of like 365 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: cement them in by doing this, or they don't have 366 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: any other options, or there will never be an option 367 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,640 Speaker 1: as as great as this, and then they no longer 368 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:48,640 Speaker 1: have to really treat you well because they can hold 369 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 1: that over your head, even though they might not ever 370 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: actually say that. So another common thing you'll see when 371 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 1: there is a narcissist in the leadership role. Wherever you 372 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:01,919 Speaker 1: are is where ever the narcissist is, there will always 373 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: be chaos, always, always, always, always always. This chaos can 374 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: look different in different ways. It doesn't always have to 375 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 1: be surrounding the actual person. It can be just surrounding 376 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,439 Speaker 1: the work environment, or maybe they've like planted all these 377 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: chaos bombs within other teams, just all surrounding around them. 378 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: So these people are masters at creating this in the workplace, 379 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: and it's so strange because it can surround them inside 380 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: and outside of their circle. But it can take a 381 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,199 Speaker 1: really long time for people to end up identifying that 382 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: all roads lead back to Rome and that like all 383 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,199 Speaker 1: of the chaos, all of this like gossip or this 384 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 1: or that, all leads back to this one singular person. 385 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: It takes a long time to actually see that. They'll 386 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: be like backstabbing. Sometimes even there's like covert like backstabbing 387 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: that like it's like front of me type vibes, you know, 388 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: and that might not be by the actual person, the 389 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: actual narcissists that might actually be by the group of 390 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 1: minion like followers that they have circling around them, which 391 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 1: most of the time the boss is surrounded by what 392 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 1: I like to call their minions. They rally around them 393 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,360 Speaker 1: to protect the boss, and it looks kind of like, 394 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 1: I hate to say this, but like also it's true, 395 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 1: it kind of looks pathetic from the outside perspective of 396 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: somebody who's gotten out of this. When you see it's like, 397 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:19,919 Speaker 1: oh my god, they're just like kind of groveling at 398 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,400 Speaker 1: this person. It's like so sad. But these people are 399 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: like unconsciously a lot of times begging for like the 400 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,120 Speaker 1: scraps of what the narcissists might throw them, and they 401 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: just kind of follow the boss almost like he or 402 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: she's like, um, like their cult leader, like there their 403 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 1: master or something like that, and they like just like 404 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 1: at their beck and call. And again it can seem 405 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: kind of like pathetic, like you have this like pity 406 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: for these people, But a lot of times you have 407 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: that pity for the people because you at one point 408 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: have been in that situation. And again, because of all 409 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: of this, those minions will end up throwing you under 410 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: the bus just as much as the narcissist might because 411 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 1: they are trying to protect the boss, because the boss 412 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,439 Speaker 1: holds the key to something that they want. And because 413 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:08,640 Speaker 1: of all of this, when you have a boss that 414 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 1: is holding a lot of the narcissistic traits or very 415 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: much can be identified with the personality disorder, what happens 416 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: is the teams are just like generally toxic and people 417 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: will throw out their values to get to the top. 418 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 1: And people that you thought were like these amazing people 419 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: and outside of that example, what's outside of that experience, 420 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,640 Speaker 1: Outside of that context, they might have really awesome values, 421 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: but it's really hard to keep them inside of that team. 422 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: And again, a lot of times the boss will hold 423 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: the key that the minion type people, the people around them, 424 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: they'll hold the key to exactly what they like want 425 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: in life at that moment, and that key will open 426 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 1: the door to this like dream or whatever it is. 427 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 1: And it doesn't always have to be like a title 428 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: or like business success or money. It could be clout 429 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: or social hierarchy, or even the ability to engage in 430 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: something that they want to do, whether that's like a 431 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: certain part of the working environment, like they hold the 432 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 1: key for them to be able to be the marketing 433 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: person or they hold the key for them to be 434 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 1: able to like do the social media thing, or they 435 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: hold the key for them to like actually engage in 436 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,640 Speaker 1: something in their community that otherwise they wouldn't be able 437 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: to engage in. I'm even like spinning as I describe this, 438 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: because I'm like thinking about like experiences and stuff like 439 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 1: that that I've had. And what I want people to 440 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,360 Speaker 1: know is that, like, if you're in this kind of environment, 441 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,439 Speaker 1: it will feel all encompassing, it will feel soul sucking, 442 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 1: and it will absorb your energy like a sponge. You'll 443 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: find yourself talking about this person or this environment or 444 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: this just like drama all day long, and it will 445 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,239 Speaker 1: wear you out and will wear out the people around you. 446 00:23:57,359 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: But you also at the same time can't stop because 447 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: bringing back that word that I used a million times 448 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 1: in the beginning, it's pervasive. It never stops. Once you 449 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,400 Speaker 1: try to start to figure something out, or once one 450 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:13,120 Speaker 1: situation is resolved, another one will pop up. So what 451 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,400 Speaker 1: do you do? How do you get out of all 452 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 1: of this chaos? Well, probably not what you guys really 453 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 1: would want to hear. But no matter what you do, 454 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 1: or who you are, or what you know or what 455 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: you've been through in your past. This is going to 456 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: take a toll on you. This is going to affect you. 457 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,239 Speaker 1: The chaos in the workplace is going to operate like 458 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: classic dysfunctional family stuff. People are going to have roles. 459 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: People are going to play their roles. And we talked 460 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,159 Speaker 1: about this in an older episode that I did with 461 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: my friend Blair, my family roles, So if you want 462 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 1: to know more about that, you can look at that 463 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,120 Speaker 1: episode and listen to that episode. But the roles include 464 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 1: the scapegoat, the hero, the play cater, the mascot, the 465 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: lost child, et cetera. And the system survives on everybody 466 00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 1: maintaining their role that they're put in, and often the scapegoat, 467 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: which is the one that is like obviously seen as 468 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 1: like the quote unquote bad person, the one that like 469 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,479 Speaker 1: in a family um that's like dysfunctional and will end 470 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: up being like the addict or one that needs to 471 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: go to therapy or go to treatment or something like that. 472 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: But what's interesting is that the scapegoat also is usually 473 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: the most aware of the dysfunction and so they're acting 474 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 1: outside of the norms of the family, and so they're 475 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: seen as the disruption to the process rather than the 476 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: most stable one. And if we have a scapegoat, then 477 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 1: we can blame everything on that scapegoat. When the reality 478 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,679 Speaker 1: the scapegoat really has it right, they're just not playing 479 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 1: that game anymore. But they're also messing up the system 480 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:48,199 Speaker 1: that is created to actually be dysfunctional. So again, what 481 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 1: to do. The safest thing to do really may not 482 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 1: be to call out the behavior, because if the dysfunction 483 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: is healed, then that system collapses, and that system is 484 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: what a lot of people are counting on to again 485 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: get them that key that leads them to exactly where 486 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: they want to go. What is pretty common and also 487 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 1: really annoying is that in teams in this kind of 488 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: toxic system, the team can feel like people are seeing 489 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: more like for things that they are doing to be 490 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: in good graces of the narcissistic leader, and less about 491 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 1: like who's actually doing the best job and who's actually 492 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 1: doing the right things. And what I mean by that 493 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: is people are rewarded more than when the narcissist is 494 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: shining their light on them, because that person is shining 495 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,679 Speaker 1: a light on the narcissist and doing and playing whatever 496 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: role they want them to play, unless when they're just 497 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 1: like doing a good job at their job, which again, 498 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: this is holding the cycle together because if you want 499 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: that admiration, if you want to be able to climb 500 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 1: the ladder to get closer to the key, you have 501 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: to continue shining your light on the narcissist. And if 502 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: you do that, the narcissists will continue to rewards you. 503 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: And as soon as you stop doing that, then that's 504 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: when the discard comes and then they move on to 505 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 1: another one of their minions. But then you're sitting there 506 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 1: being like, wait, what the heck hap bend? And you 507 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: can either say, okay, I need to open my eyes 508 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: to what's going on, and then you realize there's not 509 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: much you can do, or you try to like jump 510 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: back on the ladder and you start to like worship 511 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: that narcissist. Again. I know it sounds very crazy, because 512 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: honestly it is. And I actually learned about this article 513 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 1: from listening to one of Dr Romney's videos in there, 514 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: and then I went and read it. And there's a 515 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: New York Times article that came out I think like 516 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: about a year and a half ago about how this 517 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: is so interesting to me. But and I really recommend 518 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: you guys listening to the whole or not listening but 519 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: reading the whole article. I'll post a link to it, 520 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 1: But um, I was talking about how Google was offering 521 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: employees who went to HR with workplace abuse free counseling 522 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,360 Speaker 1: services rather than actually looking into and investigating the root 523 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:51,400 Speaker 1: of the issue. And this is a perfect example. What 524 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 1: they're saying here is it's not us, it's not our system, 525 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: it's not artists function, it's you. You have bad coping 526 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: skills versus let's start the harmful behavior and let's kind 527 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,920 Speaker 1: of fix this toxic environment, because again, if we fix 528 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: the toxic environment, the whole system crumbles again. Now, once 529 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: you're open and you're aware to what's happening, it can 530 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 1: be so so, so so so hard to continue to 531 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 1: watch what's going on. It will drive you crazy to 532 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: see these people get away with what they get away with, 533 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 1: and it may also drive you crazy to not be 534 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 1: able to say anything. So what I really would encourage 535 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: people to do here is be honest about how much 536 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 1: you can really take. If you were in one of 537 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: those spaces where you feel stuck like you can't leave, 538 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: maybe financially or maybe even contractfully, then you might have 539 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: to play a game, and that game isn't going to 540 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: be your game. It's going to be their game. And 541 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: I feel kind of icky saying that as a therapist. 542 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: But you're not going to win here alone. You're not 543 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: and that game might be like, how do I stay 544 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: in my in that this person's good graces as much 545 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 1: as possible, even if it drives a wall. And it 546 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: doesn't mean you have to like worship them and do 547 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: all this extra stuff. You don't have to be a minion, 548 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 1: but you just have to kind of like do what's 549 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: necessary to kind of just like almost coast through. And 550 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 1: then you're gonna need a lot of like self suthing 551 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 1: and some boundaries. Now, what's interesting it's it's rarely somebody 552 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 1: exposing and narcissist like individually that ends up breaking the system. 553 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: I kind of secretly love this, but at the same time, 554 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: like I don't because I do have a heart. I 555 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: will say this guy's I have a heart for the 556 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: narcissist because this personality disorder is developed from like a wound. 557 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: These people are actually really fragile. They're very insecure people. 558 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: They're not people that actually really think all this stuff 559 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: about them. It's an overcompensation for a wound for trauma 560 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: that has happened. Maybe it was a shock trauma, or 561 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 1: maybe it was like this like little t constant pervasive 562 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 1: trauma that created this personality disorder. But people weren't born 563 00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: this way. It's something that's developed. So I do have 564 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: a heart for them. But what I also do enjoy 565 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 1: after saying that is that I always say this to 566 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: clients who are in this space. These people get what's 567 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: coming for them, but very often it's not in the 568 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: time frame we want it to be in. However, it 569 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 1: will catch up. Eventually. All this stuff ends up catching up. Eventually. 570 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 1: It might not blow up and the way you want 571 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 1: it to blow up, but it will. Whether you realize 572 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: it and you get to see it and you get 573 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: to watch it or you don't, it will happen. You 574 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 1: just have to trust that what happens is this person's 575 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: own behavior ends up being what takes down the whole team. 576 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: Because they lack and ability to self reflect and see 577 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: their shortcomings. They can't go back and fix things or 578 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: say sorry or take ownership. And so sometimes the like 579 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 1: volcano gets so big that it just erupts. And I've 580 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: seen this in my life with people that have actually 581 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 1: hurt me. And again it does feel satisfying to say 582 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: I didn't have to do anything, This was all because 583 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 1: of your behavior. Was very good to be outside of 584 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 1: that chaos and be like I didn't have to do 585 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: a thing. You took care of yourself. And again my 586 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 1: encouragement to anyone in one of these situations be very 587 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,479 Speaker 1: honest with yourself. You have to get really clear with 588 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 1: realistic expectations first off, and find a way to move 589 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 1: out of this magical thinking that we really get looped 590 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: into the this will get better. But they did X, 591 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: and maybe that's a good sign or the they were 592 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: so great in the beginning, I know it can't really 593 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 1: be that bad because we can get back to this 594 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: because again it was so great in the beginning. Like 595 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: this sounds very similar to an unhealthy romantic relationship because 596 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: it's very similar in nature. The cycle is literally the same. 597 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 1: So what you might need is to keep some rigid 598 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:54,239 Speaker 1: boundaries both personal, emotional, and especially physical. I would very 599 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 1: much try not to be found alone with this person. 600 00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: I would very much try not to have individual meeting 601 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: with this person where there isn't like a trail of 602 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 1: what is said, because they tend to do their most 603 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: sneaky best work when nobody else is around them, and 604 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,239 Speaker 1: that's because then there's no evidence, and with that they 605 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: can just be like, I didn't say that, or I 606 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: didn't do that, but that's not true, and then that 607 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 1: gives a very wonderful opportunity for them to insert some 608 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 1: gas lighting in within you're going to end up feeling crazy. 609 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: And the other thing tied to that is that if 610 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: you're in a working environment and you're being harmed by 611 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 1: somebody like this, you really can't just rely on your 612 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 1: own reports of your word of mouth. You have to 613 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: have some sort of documentation that shows the harm because 614 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: if you're going to report something like this to like 615 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 1: an HR department, there's not really much they can do 616 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: by you being like my bosses and narcissists and going 617 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: back to that article from the New York Times, they 618 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 1: probably won't because again the system, you have to actually 619 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: have the information and the mistreatment like documented in some way. 620 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: And also outside of that, you also just might want 621 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,719 Speaker 1: to have it in writing for yourself so you can 622 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: go back and see it so you don't feel crazy 623 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 1: and you can remind yourself that this is not me. 624 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 1: So if we're talking about like emails or stuff like that, 625 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 1: something that you might not think to do is to 626 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 1: print out that stuff because if this is on a 627 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: work computer or a server, that actually doesn't belong to you. 628 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 1: So you might want to just find a way to 629 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 1: create your own like folder of that stuff that you 630 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: can keep. As we're getting towards the end of this episode, 631 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: and I've kind of like thrown a bunch of information, 632 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: and I feel like I've just been like word vomiting 633 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 1: on you, because I could talk about this all day long. 634 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: I think that this type of mistreatment and stress and 635 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 1: oftentimes abuse is downplayed in the effects of it are downplayed, 636 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: and workplace stress, even if it doesn't have anything to 637 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: do with like having a narcissistic boss, that actually can 638 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: really affect the quality of your life, like majorly. And 639 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: the side effects of that kind of stress aren't just 640 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: damaging to your mental health. It's actually the leading type 641 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 1: of stress that leads to sleep disruption, and so it's 642 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: not just affecting your mental health. That can also affect 643 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 1: like your physical health and can create physical illnesses, and 644 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,799 Speaker 1: it can be debilitating. And we don't take that as 645 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 1: serious as I wish that we really did. There's been studies, 646 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 1: like plenty of studies and I didn't take the time 647 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 1: to pull them right now, and maybe I should, and 648 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,240 Speaker 1: maybe I will one day. But there's plenty of studies 649 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: that show that this kind of stress creates a risk 650 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 1: factor for cardiovascular disease and can be a factor in 651 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,839 Speaker 1: things like heart attacks and strokes. And there's also more 652 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 1: research that is showing that it can increase one's risk 653 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,799 Speaker 1: of diabetes and other health problems. It can affect your 654 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 1: immune system, and it can create different kinds of like 655 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: pains in your body and gas, your own intestinal disorders 656 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:48,800 Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff. This all can play 657 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,439 Speaker 1: a role in all of that. And obviously this kind 658 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: of stress is going to create more anxiety, and it 659 00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 1: can create burnout, which then can lead to depression, and um, 660 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: it can create a stress that you're looking for coping 661 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: skills and that leads to substance use disorders. And I 662 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 1: just don't think people are connecting all the dots and 663 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 1: they just see this like, oh, my boss sucks in this, 664 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: but you're not looking at like, Okay, my boss sucks. 665 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: And then I feel this and then my body copes 666 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:18,360 Speaker 1: in this way, and then I have to cope in 667 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: this way and this this thing happens. We're not connecting 668 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 1: those altogether or just saying they have this issue and 669 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 1: they can't cope, or they have this issue and their 670 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 1: body is failing them, but we're not really looking at why. 671 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:31,839 Speaker 1: So I want to drive that home because if you're 672 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 1: one of those people too that are like, it's not 673 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,280 Speaker 1: that bad, I can deal with it, and you're looking 674 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 1: at like is the financial benefit or these work perk's 675 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: worth it? Like you really have to look at like 676 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:43,839 Speaker 1: down the line, what is this going to cost me? 677 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:45,799 Speaker 1: I might be able to deal with it now, but 678 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,399 Speaker 1: how is this going to continue to erode different parts 679 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: of my health? And is that worth this perk? Is 680 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 1: that worth this social status? Is that worth this amount 681 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 1: of money? Is that worth these kinds of vacations? Is 682 00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 1: it worth that? And you might say yes, but a 683 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:01,759 Speaker 1: lot of you guys might say no. And I think 684 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 1: that I really just want to encourage people to ask 685 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 1: themselves those questions. We want to be strong, we want 686 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:09,399 Speaker 1: to be tough, we want to like I think that's 687 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: just like one of those things that it's like I 688 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 1: think feel like I've talked about a lot here, but 689 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:15,799 Speaker 1: we push this narrative that like, you should be tough 690 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: and strong and we're America, go United States, and we 691 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,240 Speaker 1: can do whatever, and it's like, it's okay if you can't, 692 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: Like it's okay if you cannot manage a very unhealthy, 693 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 1: toxic work environment every day you're spending forty to sixty 694 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 1: to seventy hours at this job, maybe you need to 695 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 1: be at a job that doesn't make you feel like 696 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: you want to pull your hair out all day long 697 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:42,439 Speaker 1: and make you feel crazy in some circumstances. So as 698 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: we kind of close out, I will say a lot 699 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 1: of times, this isn't going to get better, and it's 700 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: not going to get better, like I said before, in 701 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,319 Speaker 1: the time frame you want. So you have to see 702 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 1: how much you can take, be honest about it. If 703 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,239 Speaker 1: you choose to stay in it, Remember you have to 704 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 1: learn how to play the game that they want you 705 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 1: to play to an extent. And again, that can be 706 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:01,680 Speaker 1: super taxi on your mental health because it's going to 707 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 1: feel an authentic and it's going to crouch your integrity. 708 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 1: So before I kind of close out, I did get 709 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:09,879 Speaker 1: some questions on Instagram and I think I answered most 710 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: of them just naturally in that, but there are two 711 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 1: that I just wanted to kind of like end with 712 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: just to make sure that I answered them because I 713 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 1: thought they were good. And I'm assuming more than one 714 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 1: of you are going to be wondering this thing. So 715 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 1: Number one, if you think someone is a narcissist, is 716 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: there a healthy way to bring it up? And this 717 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 1: kind of touches on the couch Talks question I had 718 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:33,480 Speaker 1: last week, and yeah, there's definitely a healthy way to 719 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: bring it up. But when you're communicating with someone that 720 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 1: has this kind of personality disorder, if that's what they have, 721 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 1: or even if they just have a lot of the traits, 722 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,879 Speaker 1: they most likely will lack the skills to engage in 723 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 1: this in a healthy way. Like feedback isn't really something 724 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: they're willing to hear or can even hear. And a 725 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 1: lot of times, so you can bring it up all 726 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 1: day long, and you can bring it up in a 727 00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 1: healthy way all day long, but just know the likelihood 728 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,359 Speaker 1: of that being helpful is probably extremely low because they 729 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 1: might not be able to receive what you're saying. Doesn't 730 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 1: mean you're doing anything wrong, And that speaks to like 731 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 1: something I like to remind people a lot is that 732 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,840 Speaker 1: just because somebody got upset with you doesn't mean you 733 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:20,880 Speaker 1: did anything wrong. Or just because somebody disagrees with your behavior, 734 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 1: it doesn't mean you did something wrong. Because a lot 735 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:24,840 Speaker 1: of times you could be like right in the lane 736 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 1: of like integrity and health and care and love, and 737 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,720 Speaker 1: that person just like lacks the ability to like self 738 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 1: reflect and sit with like their own shortcomings. So they're 739 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 1: gonna throw that in your face. So do with that 740 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,839 Speaker 1: what you will. Now, the second question is can you 741 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,880 Speaker 1: hold narcissistic people accountable? And what's the best way to 742 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 1: do that? And it's kind of similar goes in the 743 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,960 Speaker 1: same vein as the previous question. Sure you can bring 744 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,239 Speaker 1: attention to things that they have done and point out inconsistencies, 745 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,960 Speaker 1: but that is often going to be met with gas lighting, 746 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 1: and it's going to go in one ear and out 747 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:00,759 Speaker 1: the other, and it might end up in um kind 748 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 1: of like coming back at you, and it's going to 749 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,400 Speaker 1: backfire and end up with you getting some kind of 750 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 1: punishment in some way. And what I would really not 751 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,399 Speaker 1: want for somebody who's trying to just like kindly bring 752 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 1: this up to somebody is for them to then be 753 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,400 Speaker 1: in a situation there where they're being gasolt and then 754 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 1: they're confused, and then they're apologizing and they're feeling like 755 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 1: crap about themselves. So again, do with that what you will. 756 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 1: So that about does it for today's episode. As always, 757 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 1: if you have questions, you can send them to Catherine 758 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,839 Speaker 1: at you Need Therapy Podcast dot com and one day 759 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: I hopefully will get to them and you can follow 760 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:41,360 Speaker 1: me um on Instagram at at cat dot de fata. Again, 761 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,800 Speaker 1: this account is private now, but you can still request 762 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 1: me and I'll probably accept you as long as you're 763 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 1: not a fake account or you're not a client of mine, 764 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 1: and then anybody can go ahead and follow at you 765 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,080 Speaker 1: Need Therapy Podcast. I am going to be posting way 766 00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:58,759 Speaker 1: more of the content that I would have posted on 767 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:02,280 Speaker 1: my personal account on you Need Therapy Podcasts in the future, 768 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 1: So if you are a kind of mine, or you 769 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,720 Speaker 1: are a robot that wants to follow me and you can't, 770 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,239 Speaker 1: you won't be missing out on anything. My instagram Cat 771 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 1: dot a fata is going to be way more attuned 772 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 1: to like my personal life, so you might not be 773 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,840 Speaker 1: interested in that anyway, and then you Need Therapy podcast 774 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:19,560 Speaker 1: is going to be the one that has more of 775 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:24,279 Speaker 1: the podcast info obviously and mental health stuff attributed to it. 776 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,279 Speaker 1: So in closing, I just want to say, if you're 777 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,200 Speaker 1: somebody that's listening to this because you're like I'm in it, 778 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:34,840 Speaker 1: I feel for you. I've been in these situations before, 779 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,279 Speaker 1: not just in the workplace, but like in relationships, and 780 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: it's really tough and being honest. I know I said 781 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 1: that kind of flippantly, but like when you do have 782 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:46,359 Speaker 1: to sit and be honest and like really accept what 783 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,840 Speaker 1: is going on, it's really hard, Like you have to 784 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,960 Speaker 1: grieve a lot of stuff. So I'm with you. Please 785 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,880 Speaker 1: reach out to people, please, like don't you don't have 786 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:58,160 Speaker 1: to stay in this alone and you're allowed to get 787 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,120 Speaker 1: support and you're allowed to ask or accountability and help. 788 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,399 Speaker 1: So I'm with you. I am sorry if you're going 789 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,319 Speaker 1: through that, and I hope that this was helpful. Have 790 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:09,520 Speaker 1: the day you need to have, how the week you 791 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:11,319 Speaker 1: need to have, and I will be back with you 792 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:13,759 Speaker 1: Wednesday for Couch Talks by Guys