Speaker 1: The Craig Ferguson Pants on Fire Tour is on sale now.
Speaker 1: It's a new show, it's new material, but I'm afraid
Speaker 1: it's still only me, Craig Ferguson on my own, standing
Speaker 1: on a stage, telling comedy words. Come and see me,
Speaker 1: buy tickets, bring your loved ones, or don't come and
Speaker 1: see me. Don't buy tickets and don't bring your loved ones.
Speaker 1: I'm not your dad. You come or don't come, but
Speaker 1: you should at least know what's happening, and it is.
Speaker 1: The tour kicks off late September and goes through the
Speaker 1: end of the year and beyond. Tickets are available at
Speaker 1: the Craig Ferguson Show dot com slash tour. They are
Speaker 1: available at the Craig Ferguson show dot com slash tour
Speaker 1: or at your local outlet in your region. My name
Speaker 1: is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is Joy.
Speaker 1: I talk to interest in people about what brings them happiness.
Speaker 1: My guest today is a gentleman of extraordin in early
Speaker 1: style and wit and grace and humor. He is a
Speaker 1: very very clever with a very interesting take on life.
Speaker 1: Of course, he lives in New York City, and of
Speaker 1: course he's originally from Cleveland, and of course he is
Speaker 1: George Hahn.
Speaker 2: George, congratulations. In all the time I've been doing this podcast,
Speaker 2: which is not you're the first person who was early. Really, Yes,
Speaker 2: that's because I'm eager and I'm eager and excited to
Speaker 2: speak with you. Well, I think that's believable and also
Speaker 2: the I think you're the only person I've ever had
Speaker 2: on this only guests I've ever had on I think
Speaker 2: anywhere where I don't know you except from social media.
Speaker 1: I only know you from social media because I have
Speaker 1: to make a confashion to you.
Speaker 2: You were my lockdown internet boyfriend. It's one hundred percent true. God,
Speaker 2: that's the hottest things and if anything, any event's ever
Speaker 2: said to me in the last five years. So thank
Speaker 2: you for that.
Speaker 1: I was in Scotland during the Lockdown and you were
Speaker 1: making these stylish, angry, passionate but also very cool little
Speaker 1: videos in New York and I was like, fuck, I
Speaker 1: wish I could get back to New York and live
Speaker 1: in an apartment in the Upper West Side. But George,
Speaker 1: we'd go to the opera, we'd go and see things,
Speaker 1: we'd go see. I have this idea of you that
Speaker 1: you are a complete Upper west Side stylish kind of sophisticate.
Speaker 2: Tell me I'm wrong or tell me I'm right. Well,
Speaker 2: I'll tell you something. It's strange that you bring that up.
Speaker 2: I was thinking today that I am starting to sort
Speaker 2: of become that person in the weirdest way that I
Speaker 2: never was. Never on the itinerary. For example, I will
Speaker 2: tell you as we record this tonight, I am going
Speaker 2: to see no No, No. Let me rewind. Earlier this week,
Speaker 2: I went to the opera. I went to the Metropolitan
Speaker 2: Opera House and I saw a production of Tosca. I
Speaker 2: never I hadn't been to the opera in maybe ten years.
Speaker 2: So it's so funny that you're mentioning this now because
Speaker 2: I just went back to the met for the first
Speaker 2: time in a decade and it was glorious. My friend
Speaker 2: is a sober buddy of mine, and he said, let's
Speaker 2: go to the diner old School, and then we went
Speaker 2: to the opera all dressed up and had this amazing,
Speaker 2: fantastic night and I just felt so like nourished creatively.
Speaker 2: And then tonight to see are you sitting down? You're
Speaker 2: sitting down and you're wearing a tie and everything. Tonight,
Speaker 2: I am going to Radio City Music Hall to see
Speaker 2: none other than Barry Manilow. So you fucking bastard, treat
Speaker 2: me the same, treat me the same.
Speaker 1: I my god, I lost the first time I was
Speaker 1: ever nominated for an Emmy or for anything, really, I
Speaker 1: lost it to Barry Manelo or he won it. I
Speaker 1: was in the same category as him for a moment though.
Speaker 1: Apparently shows and Barry Man and Loew's we're lumped together.
Speaker 2: At one point in the history of show business back
Speaker 2: in the day.
Speaker 1: Interesting, but he rightfully won the Best Bardie man A
Speaker 1: Loo Award.
Speaker 2: But here's the thing. I went to the opera last year.
Speaker 1: I went to see Labo M at the met and
Speaker 1: I have a problem with that opera a little bit
Speaker 1: because that woman that says that she's got TB and
Speaker 1: starts singing about having TV this, she doesn't look to
Speaker 1: me like she's sick.
Speaker 2: Yeah she looks a little too good. Yeah she looks
Speaker 2: pretty healthy, robust character. Right. Are you a fan of
Speaker 2: the opera? I am cripperably a fan of the opera.
Speaker 2: And what that means is that for years I was
Speaker 2: making websites just to make a living, because it was
Speaker 2: a skill I had in my pocket. And one of
Speaker 2: my clients was a manager of opera artists. So I
Speaker 2: got familiar with the names of them, the composers of them,
Speaker 2: and got very familiar with, you know, what each of
Speaker 2: them sounded like, because I was uploading in audio and
Speaker 2: video samples of performances. So this guy represented yeah, directors
Speaker 2: and singers and yeah. In fact, one of his clients
Speaker 2: was Charles Nelson Riley. Oh, he was there the opera,
Speaker 2: but he sort of was in a way. He was
Speaker 2: a director. He directed production, did he really did? He
Speaker 2: did that? He was when I was a young wanta
Speaker 2: be actor in in the early days of New York City.
Speaker 2: We're going back to ninety five, ninety six, ninety seven.
Speaker 2: I was also a waitress at Joe Allen of course
Speaker 2: Wow on West forty sixth Street Theater, still a favorite
Speaker 2: personally anyway. And Charles Nilson Riley at the time was
Speaker 2: directing a production of The Gin Game with Charles during
Speaker 2: and Julie Harris and come in during runs of that show.
Speaker 2: During the run of that show, come in and harass.
Speaker 2: Like today, he would have been slapped so hard with
Speaker 2: a lawsuit, like practically pinching us in the ass. And
Speaker 2: as we would walk past the table, he would go
Speaker 2: run Cinderella, Run, Cinderella, and I, you know, some of
Speaker 2: the other kids had a problem with it. I thought
Speaker 2: he was hilarious and I love Yeah. Yeah, it would
Speaker 2: not be examtable today. No, it would absolutely not beat out.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of a lot of people I
Speaker 1: worked with back in the day in theater in London,
Speaker 1: it would have been tricky for them.
Speaker 2: Now, I think pretty pretty tricky enough of that. Let
Speaker 2: me ask you this because as far as I can
Speaker 2: glean from social media, which is the anyway I know you.
Speaker 2: Although I think, and this is considered this podcast me
Speaker 2: applying to be your friend. You're in all right, right,
Speaker 2: so this is my application.
Speaker 1: But I, as far as I've found out about your walking,
Speaker 1: glean from your posts.
Speaker 2: You're from Cleveland, right, correct? Yeah? So you're from Are
Speaker 2: you from Shaker Heights to Cleveland. No, I'm on the
Speaker 2: other side of the town. Shaker Heights is a western
Speaker 2: or a rather east side suburb. I'm from a west
Speaker 2: side suburb called Lakewood.
Speaker 1: Is that is that posh? Because I thought Shaker Heights
Speaker 1: is posh. Shaker Heights is posh, but Lakewood is not posh. No,
Speaker 1: Lakewood was always working the middle class. There were some
Speaker 1: Now Lakewood's got some posh pockets to it, but by
Speaker 1: and large, if you took that whole zip code, it
Speaker 1: would I would call it staunchly middle class. All right,
Speaker 1: So you grew up. It's a very kind of uh.
Speaker 1: Let you you tell me how it was. I I
Speaker 1: think of you as probably being in a kind of Ossie.
Speaker 2: And Harry environment. Is that right? Is it is? It
Speaker 2: was a little more American go ethic? What was it?
Speaker 2: I would say maybe a little bit of both. I
Speaker 2: think my parents, looking back, were just sort of alarmingly normal.
Speaker 2: There was no like in my upbringing, like in our
Speaker 2: nuclear family. I'm the youngest of five. My mother was
Speaker 2: married and widowed before and had four kids when she
Speaker 2: met my dad. So my older siblings are technically half
Speaker 2: and we had it pretty good. I say I would
Speaker 2: say that we were We were I think were fairly
Speaker 2: punished when we screwed up, and never physically, and we
Speaker 2: were rewarded when we did things very well, and we
Speaker 2: were loved and birthdays were like almost embarrassingly celebrated like
Speaker 2: we had a pretty good I would say, so what
Speaker 2: leads you? What led you in?
Speaker 1: Because I feel like you're a theatery person, and that's
Speaker 1: a very specific kind of kid.
Speaker 2: Were you a theory kid? I was a performative kid.
Speaker 2: I was never the first time I engaged in anything
Speaker 2: theatrical with a stage and a script and a director
Speaker 2: was in college. But the Hans themselves are funny. We
Speaker 2: have like my dad was funny. You know. My cousin
Speaker 2: Catherine Hahn, she's she's crazy. Catherine, she'sful, but she's nuts.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the very nice Yeah, and she adores you
Speaker 2: and I adore her. It's a love fest. We have
Speaker 2: to get together and have a hug fest.
Speaker 1: I think that maybe the Hans and the Fergusons should
Speaker 1: maybe have a Thanksgiving together or something.
Speaker 2: I think that's a I am down for that. I mean,
Speaker 2: we we've moved back to New England though, so we're
Speaker 2: American again. I think we can do that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was in Scotland for a while and I was like, no,
Speaker 1: I was I think Proust, you know, I got about
Speaker 1: richere she Mike Thomas Purdue, and I think, no, No,
Speaker 1: you cannot go back.
Speaker 2: I was just in your country not long ago. You
Speaker 2: where have we done? I have a friend, my friend,
Speaker 2: Scott Galloway, celebrated a birthday for himself a sixtieth. He
Speaker 2: called it a fiftieth birthday in a beautiful old hotel
Speaker 2: in Braemar. So for forty eight hours we were at
Speaker 2: the Fife Arms Hotel. It was incredible. You know, then
Speaker 2: whether Queen died I think in Braemar might be right.
Speaker 2: We saw the King's king and his motor cane on
Speaker 2: our way to the airport in the hotel house there. Yeah,
Speaker 2: is it Baldey Castle, bow Moor. Yeah, I think he
Speaker 2: literally drove past. I saw him in the backseat of
Speaker 2: his car because they'd stopped a traffic because we were
Speaker 2: en route to Aberdeen Airport and there was the King
Speaker 2: And did you have a nice was that? Your first time?
Speaker 2: Was going totally? And I thought I was so charmed
Speaker 2: by it. Could I live there full time? No? I
Speaker 2: like the sun, yeah, and I like a salad now
Speaker 2: and then. But I love it beautiful, Oh my god, Craig,
Speaker 2: it's like this, It's.
Speaker 1: Like is beautiful. It is beauty. Yeah, it's like skyfall.
Speaker 1: I actually when I love Skyfall as a movie. For me,
Speaker 1: it's my favorite Bond movie and me both even including
Speaker 1: the Conneries, which is it almost feels heretical to say that.
Speaker 2: But it was the Bond movie that made me cry.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And also I felt I it's the first time
Speaker 1: I really identified with James Wonder. And he's looking at
Speaker 1: the bleak beauty of Skyfall and where he grew up
Speaker 1: and he says, I hate this place.
Speaker 2: Yes, let's just torch this house. Let's torch this house.
Speaker 2: No light coming in.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, But I didn't. I didn't come from the
Speaker 1: kind of dramatic part of Scotland. I came from the
Speaker 1: just the Cleveland of Scotland.
Speaker 2: Actually, So how how did you get into are your family?
Speaker 1: I mean, Catherine is very sure, she's very theatrical and
Speaker 1: very away went.
Speaker 2: She was a local TV show and she did local theater.
Speaker 2: I was always embarrassed the west side of Cleveland to compare,
Speaker 2: because Katherine grew up on the East side of Cleveland.
Speaker 2: You know, our dads were brothers. Her dad was Bill.
Speaker 2: He just died this year on the same date my
Speaker 2: father died thirty four years ago. But so they grew
Speaker 2: up in the same house obviously, and then Bill went
Speaker 2: to the east side. Ultimately, my dad stayed on the
Speaker 2: west side. The east side, where Shaker Heights is Cleveland
Speaker 2: Heights seemed to have a much more liberal minded and
Speaker 2: it might have been the liberal intellectual Jewish community. I
Speaker 2: don't know what it was, but like the sort of
Speaker 2: bohemian crowd was all away on the east side, particularly
Speaker 2: in this neighborhood called Coventry. That's where the art house
Speaker 2: movie theater was, That's where the museums were, That's where
Speaker 2: the cool record shops were. That's where you could get
Speaker 2: vintage clothes. The west side, where I came from, it
Speaker 2: didn't have as much. It was a little more conservative,
Speaker 2: a little more he not as expressive artistically, I would say,
Speaker 2: and not as liberal. That's what I saw it.
Speaker 1: You mentioned your father, and I saw a media post
Speaker 1: or something you posted some time, agoys, it's rather moving
Speaker 1: post about your father taking you to New York City?
Speaker 2: Was that the first time that you went.
Speaker 1: Was your father interested in in the theater?
Speaker 2: Was he? Oh that's where that's where you got it from. Yeah,
Speaker 2: he was an actor. I have an award of his
Speaker 2: sitting on one of a chest in my room. He
Speaker 2: was an actor in local actor. He won awards. I've
Speaker 2: never won an award for acting. He went to Notre Dame.
Speaker 2: He did theater there. He was in the theater with
Speaker 2: Phil Donahue of all people, what mm hmm. They were
Speaker 2: at Notre Dame around the same time. And then got
Speaker 2: into He went into the Navy, did some performances in
Speaker 2: the Navy. I think he wanted to go into acting professionally,
Speaker 2: but I think his father, my grandfather, kind of talked
Speaker 2: him out of it, you know, just in terms of, oh,
Speaker 2: you're gonna just setting yourself up for failure kind of thing.
Speaker 2: It's generational. And so my dad went into advertising and
Speaker 2: marketing and he was good at it, and that's what
Speaker 2: he ended up kind of doing. Did he look like
Speaker 2: John Hammond mad Men? He was more interesting to say
Speaker 2: that he wasn't the creative end. He was literally Pete Campbell,
Speaker 2: not minus minus like he was an account executive. I
Speaker 2: think he's title on his business card was something like
Speaker 2: account executive. And that was my dad. So he was
Speaker 2: not you know, when you when you had mad Men,
Speaker 2: when those agencies were in two parts, it was a
Speaker 2: creative in the business. My dad was kind of more
Speaker 2: on the business side, but they did you know intercing.
Speaker 1: What I pick up from your style is very kind
Speaker 1: of like it's very classically like that, very kind of
Speaker 1: you know, well cut suits and ties and good shoes, and.
Speaker 2: I feel like I feel like there's alcohol in there
Speaker 2: as well. Is that? Yeah? Is it?
Speaker 1: But you're correct me if I'm wrong, or tell me
Speaker 1: to show up from crossing the line.
Speaker 2: But you're sober, right twenty two years? Wow?
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's great. Runs in the family. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: a funny thing. So was that we're drinking when you
Speaker 1: went to New York?
Speaker 2: When I got here? Yeah, I moved here in ninety
Speaker 2: four and I didn't get sober till two. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that would be right. I get sober. I'm thirty
Speaker 1: two years look at us. Yeah, but can I tell
Speaker 1: you something? What when I you know, because I always
Speaker 1: had this sort of act, this image of you know,
Speaker 1: an aspiring actor, that sort of that Richard Burton ideal brooding,
Speaker 1: a little messy and dark and chainsmoking and just terminally miserable, right,
Speaker 1: always cloudy, always cloudy in my snow globe. And that
Speaker 1: was sort of what you know, everybody wanted to sort
Speaker 1: of be like that and look like al Pacino and
Speaker 1: Carlito's way, like just very sort of angry, bitter out
Speaker 1: of work. Anyway, I was fortunate enough to do an
Speaker 1: episode of Sex in the City and then like after
Speaker 1: that wrapped, there was a party and the showrunner, Michael
Speaker 1: Patrick King was at this rap party as well.
Speaker 2: I'm sitting at a table with him. I'm not sure
Speaker 2: how or why, but they're passing around Martini's. The servers
Speaker 2: are giving away martinis and Cosmopolitans, what have you. When
Speaker 2: I am on antibiotics, I didn't give a shit. I
Speaker 2: took another martini. I'm getting well on my getting smashed,
Speaker 2: and Michael asked for a club soda and I said,
Speaker 2: you're not drinking tonight and he said, oh, I don't
Speaker 2: drink at all. I said, ever, he goes, I've never drunk,
Speaker 2: And I thought this guy and I remember this clearly,
Speaker 2: this guy, and this is two and a half years
Speaker 2: before I ultimately got sober. He is highly functional, creatively, vibrant, successful,
Speaker 2: happy in the mix of this business that I want
Speaker 2: to be. I want to be in the mix like him.
Speaker 2: And I thought, this guy who doesn't drink is on
Speaker 2: to something and the not drinking thing is part of it.
Speaker 2: And I remember a seed was planted. Even though I
Speaker 2: had sober parents, I had like yeah, so the drinking
Speaker 2: thing was very tricky for me for a long time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that I very much believed the myth
Speaker 1: of you know that the alcohol and you know, I
Speaker 1: did cocaine, but only is a kind of vitamin to
Speaker 1: drink more. It wasn't really like a proper cocaine addiction.
Speaker 1: It was more kind of like a side hustle for
Speaker 1: the main event. And I felt like the that's why
Speaker 1: British people do so much cocaine, by the way, it's
Speaker 1: because they like cocaine. It's just that they can drink
Speaker 1: more while they're taking cocaine. That's that's what it is.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, yeah, let's do a little bump.
Speaker 2: But it's not like it's not like doing a bump
Speaker 2: in you know, in New York or in Los Angeles
Speaker 2: or Miami. It's well, then go down the pap.
Speaker 1: But that being said, I felt for the myth of
Speaker 1: the drugs and the alcohol make you loosen, creative, and
Speaker 1: it was it took me a while to figure out
Speaker 1: the people who were creative and successful, and usually it
Speaker 1: was some kind of torture genius. We're doing that despite
Speaker 1: the drugs and alcohol, not because of it. It was
Speaker 1: like their talent was so profound that it was it
Speaker 1: was kind of cutting through because I really don't buy
Speaker 1: that myth anymore. I really I think it's fucking horseshit.
Speaker 1: The you know, Picasso is a great artist. Mcdigliani is
Speaker 1: a great artist. Mcdiglianni dies in the street and is
Speaker 1: I guess his thirties or forties. Picasto lives the ninety
Speaker 1: and keeps, keeps doing things, and keeps, you know, keeps changing.
Speaker 1: And I I wonder if young people now are still
Speaker 1: buying into that. I feel like you might be a
Speaker 1: bit more plugged into that world than may do you think?
Speaker 2: So I get I missed a fun I can't remember
Speaker 2: specifically what it was, but I remember years ago coming
Speaker 2: across an ad for some kind of liquor. Whether it
Speaker 2: was a it might have been a gin or a
Speaker 2: a rum, I don't know. It doesn't matter anyway. The
Speaker 2: ad feature Ernest Hemingway. I thought, wait a minute, and
Speaker 2: the alcoholic who blew his head off as your spokes
Speaker 2: model I'm sorry, there's a disconnect here like this, These
Speaker 2: guys who are extolled as you're you know, you're brooding
Speaker 2: like male archetype heroes. He was a mess, you know.
Speaker 2: Richard Burton was a mess yep uh. You know these
Speaker 2: drinker Jimmy Uh, Judy Garland, Marilyn monty Cliff beautiful, creative,
Speaker 2: vibrant souls. But I would imagine after a certain point
Speaker 2: to the people who love them, the people in their lives,
Speaker 2: I would imagine were exhausting and burned people out like
Speaker 2: rice paper.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm sure. And also that the thing that
Speaker 1: I mean, I I think I was. I was pretty
Speaker 1: good at this is putting on some kind of show
Speaker 1: while I was drinking in public. You know, it was
Speaker 1: only it was only after are quite a bit of time,
Speaker 1: and I guess when it became obvious that I had
Speaker 1: a problem. But I would pretend, even to myself, I
Speaker 1: was having a you know, I was living a wild
Speaker 1: life and having a great time. Same the fetal position
Speaker 1: at four o'clock in the morning, naked and your hotel
Speaker 1: room crying. You know, something you shared with people, just
Speaker 1: like guess what I did last night. It was awesome.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or being in that position with someone else in
Speaker 2: the room gorgeous. Sure, who's going to look like pity.
Speaker 1: On people's faces. That's why I hated Jesus. I hated
Speaker 1: that when when they would just look.
Speaker 2: At you like what that? What the fuck you? If
Speaker 2: I could remember that, my biggest year was the next
Speaker 2: day or days after hearing about what I did or said.
Speaker 2: That was so unnerving to me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why I took cocaine and took blackouts away.
Speaker 2: Ah See, had I only known or had some extra.
Speaker 1: Cash well cocaine, or if I I didn't know it
Speaker 1: about prescription lens sun's glasses, I think I might still
Speaker 1: be drinking.
Speaker 2: Actually I didn't.
Speaker 1: I didn't know there was such a thing as you
Speaker 1: could get prescription lens sunglasses.
Speaker 2: And if I had known about that, I'd be like,
Speaker 2: it's all. See, they don't talk about you know. Sinatra
Speaker 2: is another one. I don't know if he was an alcoholic,
Speaker 2: but I mean he was a drinker, and he like
Speaker 2: he looked like it. You know, after a while, it
Speaker 2: physically takes a toll. And you look at Frank in
Speaker 2: the seventies as opposed to Frank in the early sixties,
Speaker 2: almost a different guy. He looked like a pincushion, Like really,
Speaker 2: that brown bottled tan takes a toll and I think,
Speaker 2: but there is that kind of huge I mean, you
Speaker 2: you meet with a law of aggression from people who
Speaker 2: have alcohol problems who don't want to Like if you
Speaker 2: say I'm sober and I'm sober because I want to
Speaker 2: be sober, it's like, oh, I you know, it's like
Speaker 2: you somehow copped out. Or it's like when I say
Speaker 2: to people, now look like I'm not I'm not stupid.
Speaker 2: If thinking it was more fun, I do it, and
Speaker 2: I stopped having fun. It wasn't fun anymore, No, not
Speaker 2: at all, And it stopped kind of stopped kind of
Speaker 2: working as well. It stopped kind of you know, like
Speaker 2: I would. I used to be friend of flying and
Speaker 2: I would drink on airplanes to deal with that, and
Speaker 2: then I found out I was just drunk and scared
Speaker 2: it did it did nothing other than just that. How
Speaker 2: are you now with it? Do you?
Speaker 1: Are you very connected to sobriety? Do you attend to
Speaker 1: it a lot? And stuff? I mean I'm kind of
Speaker 1: dancing around the oh yeah, you know the traditions of.
Speaker 2: I do I have a. Let's just say I did
Speaker 2: not do this alone. My parents went that same route. Well,
Speaker 2: you're paying suber when you were a kid. Yeah, my
Speaker 2: dad got so when I was four. My mom got
Speaker 2: sober when I was five. So you don't really remember
Speaker 2: them drinking that, right, I have a very I don't
Speaker 2: have a memory of my mother drunk. But I do
Speaker 2: have a very vague memory of my father passed out
Speaker 2: on a couch in our house and I couldn't wake
Speaker 2: him up. I remember pounding on his chest. I have
Speaker 2: a vague memory of that, and to this day, the
Speaker 2: smell of scotch makes me think of him, even though
Speaker 2: I have no real clear memory of him drinking. But
Speaker 2: the smell of scotch that sensed memory makes me think
Speaker 2: of dad and that was his drink.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I guess look, I feel like you live
Speaker 1: an urbane life.
Speaker 2: Is that? Would that be right to say that you
Speaker 2: live a kind of a city a city life? Oh?
Speaker 2: For sure. I love city living, so you you probably
Speaker 2: run into it quite a lot, right, Oh, all the time.
Speaker 2: There are many times when I'm like in this this
Speaker 2: this birthday weekend in Scotland at five arms, I of
Speaker 2: like the hundred guests because they we kind of commandeered
Speaker 2: this hotel for forty eight hours. I think I was
Speaker 2: one of maybe three total people who weren't drinking, and
Speaker 2: you know, probably in the whole of Scotland. Yea. Literally
Speaker 2: when we went to do like the hunting or not hunting,
Speaker 2: we went to shoot air rifles and throw axes into archery.
Speaker 2: Turns out I'm good at archery. We were given, you know,
Speaker 2: SIPs of like the reward is a sip of whiskey,
Speaker 2: and I just I'm the one who's always passing. But yeah,
Speaker 2: it's just it is still weird to people when you
Speaker 2: don't and they kind of look at you sometimes like
Speaker 2: a broken slot machine, like how do you do this sober?
Speaker 2: I'm like, I just do.
Speaker 1: I How about performing? I've been working as an actor.
Speaker 1: Did you find it a big change once you go sober?
Speaker 2: H I found that less and less. My inhibitions went
Speaker 2: away more and more. Year after year. I would say,
Speaker 2: I have become and maybe it's just age, but I
Speaker 2: have become less inhibited, less self conscious. Like the videos
Speaker 2: I became known for making on social media, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm basically doing a selfie walking down walking down the street,
Speaker 2: and ten years before that, even five years before I
Speaker 2: started doing them, I think I would have been too
Speaker 2: self conscious to actually do it, and I would have
Speaker 2: given a shit what somebody thought of me looking at
Speaker 2: me on the street. Now I don't care. Do you
Speaker 2: look at the comments and stuff when you post that?
Speaker 2: Not as much anymore I used to, because it was like,
Speaker 2: I mean, validation from strangers is like Heroin to me. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but not as much anymore. I just I do want
Speaker 2: to know that it's being liked, but I don't read.
Speaker 2: I will look at comments from ends, and those tend
Speaker 2: to get filtered to the top, thankfully, right, because it's
Speaker 2: a sort of a form of high five and communication,
Speaker 2: and that's lovely. But strangers, it's funny.
Speaker 1: I noticed that I just had to stop reading them
Speaker 1: because I would skip past comments that were positive to
Speaker 1: find the negative ones. Isn't that fun Yeah? I think
Speaker 1: that's some kind of twisted narcissism, I think, and I
Speaker 1: don't like it myself.
Speaker 2: Do you have do you have imposter syndrome? Yes?
Speaker 1: Yes, definitely, the idea that you know I'm not funny,
Speaker 1: I shouldn't.
Speaker 2: Yeah, all of that, Yeah, oh god, do you have that?
Speaker 2: Terribly all the time. I think it's funny. I think
Speaker 2: of you as being super confident. I'm good at faking it.
Speaker 2: I'm very good at faking it. Yes, I go. We'll
Speaker 2: go into a room knowing that I'm fine, like the
Speaker 2: technically I know, I'm fine, like I'm cool, like I
Speaker 2: got the goods to sort of hold my own in
Speaker 2: this space here. But there is that dark voice on
Speaker 2: one on one shoulder saying you suck. You're not funny,
Speaker 2: you're not pretty enough, you're not smart enough, you're not
Speaker 2: talented enough. But I also know that if I don't
Speaker 2: fake it, nothing's gonna nothing's gonna move. So I have
Speaker 2: this weird wherewithal to know that I have to sort
Speaker 2: of power through a very unconfident moment if anything is
Speaker 2: gonna come out of it. So that's I take that route.
Speaker 2: I go, and I go.
Speaker 1: I kind of I did a bit of a I
Speaker 1: got a bit of a sea change with it fairly
Speaker 1: recently because I started doing a lot stand up I've
Speaker 1: bean I've always done stand up comedy.
Speaker 2: I mean, I've done my whole career and.
Speaker 1: I and I love it, and I love the kind
Speaker 1: of the kind of solo work.
Speaker 2: I love being on a stage on my own.
Speaker 1: And and I I I get very tired of the
Speaker 1: corporate mindset, not just to like when I want to
Speaker 1: CBS for a long time, but also it seems like
Speaker 1: everything is corporate. Like young people will talk about their
Speaker 1: brand like I know what that? What are you talking about?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: And like everything is a something that Norman McDonald accused
Speaker 1: me of once that he said I was a seething
Speaker 1: cauldron of ambition, and I think he's probably true. But
Speaker 1: but but I'm not anymore. But I but I think
Speaker 1: that's quite a popular look.
Speaker 2: And I I I rejected, but I got. I had
Speaker 2: this conversation with Jay Leno because I was talking about
Speaker 2: trying to memorize a stand up thing and he said, hey,
Speaker 2: just keep talking, just keep talking. Nobody knows what you're
Speaker 2: meant to be saying. They just keep talking. They don't
Speaker 2: know the act. To just keep talking. Do that in
Speaker 2: your act, because that's great.
Speaker 1: But what I but what I can love about it
Speaker 1: is it's kind of true the if you if you
Speaker 1: can think I'm meant to be here, this is what
Speaker 1: I I do it. Clearly I've been doing it long enough.
Speaker 1: This is what I'm meant to be. I was meant
Speaker 1: to be doing something else, that I'd be doing it.
Speaker 2: But and that that is one of the few blessings
Speaker 2: of age, because I'm I'm kind of struggling a little
Speaker 2: with my corporal the corporeal decline, you know, like I can't.
Speaker 2: I can't. I'm not quite as uh.
Speaker 1: I don't repair as quickly as I used to, like
Speaker 1: I get fat because I get fat and then then
Speaker 1: and fat, and then if I get fat it takes
Speaker 1: me much longer to get not fat again.
Speaker 2: Like this is terrible. It used to be easy. I know.
Speaker 2: I quit smoking two and a half years ago and
Speaker 2: I'm still trying to And when I was smoking and fit,
Speaker 2: I sort of did this devil's dance of being very
Speaker 2: fit and exercising and eating pretty well. But that vice
Speaker 2: was cigarettes, which I'm not. I don't crave them anymore,
Speaker 2: but I do come kind of miss them sometimes.
Speaker 1: But oh, I fucking listen, I fucking love smoking, and
Speaker 1: I have every cigarette over twenty five years.
Speaker 2: I loved every cigarette I ever had.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I fucking loved it. And if it
Speaker 1: didn't give you cancer, I'd still do it. Absolute it
Speaker 1: gives you, it just does, and but I was such
Speaker 1: a sexy weight. I was like, I can't fit into
Speaker 1: the suits I wore. So I'm in the process now
Speaker 1: of getting back down. So I got to eat my feelings.
Speaker 1: That's the carrot that I use for myself as well,
Speaker 1: because I had this deal when I was in late
Speaker 1: night that my agent made that I get I got
Speaker 1: to keep all the suits that I ever had, and like,
Speaker 1: so I've got like one hundred and fifty suits from
Speaker 1: me late night shows and game shows and stuff like
Speaker 1: that I can't wear any So.
Speaker 2: I have this idea that if you lose another ten pounds,
Speaker 2: you'll get You'll win one hundred and fifty suits, you know.
Speaker 2: So it kind of it's hard though, and I feel like,
Speaker 2: were you fat as a kid? Your tubby kid. This
Speaker 2: is the first time I've struggled with taking off weight.
Speaker 2: I'm It's not like I'm not obese or something. I'm
Speaker 2: well aware of it and I don't think I have
Speaker 2: like body dysmorphia. But let's just I can't fit into
Speaker 2: the suits that I invested a lot of tailoring into.
Speaker 2: So it's it's I'm about twenty pounds north of where
Speaker 2: I want to be and that's hard. It's harder for
Speaker 2: me than I thought, and it requires a discipline that
Speaker 2: I thought I had, but I got to work a
Speaker 2: little bit harder. Well, you know, this is my first
Speaker 2: about how you feel.
Speaker 1: I mean, there are people who carry twenty thirty forty
Speaker 1: extra punds who are just fine.
Speaker 2: But you know it, it's not you know, I wouldn't.
Speaker 2: I don't think there's a body type that's perfect for everybody.
Speaker 2: But I know for for me, if I carry extra weight,
Speaker 2: I feel ashamed. I was my neckname when I was
Speaker 2: a kid was Tubby. No, yeah, yeah, you wouldn't. You
Speaker 2: wouldn't be allowed to do that. Kids are such bitches.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, Oh my god. I've told the teachers
Speaker 2: as well. I mean it was they were horrible. The
Speaker 2: teachers would say that to you.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, oh horrible Tubby fans didn't come out he yet,
Speaker 1: fat wee body.
Speaker 2: Okay. I don't think I've ever managed to shake it.
Speaker 2: I really don't. Through all the years of getting sober
Speaker 2: and therapy and everyone else, I'm do you get therapy?
Speaker 2: Do you go to therapy? Is that I did? I
Speaker 2: had a very bad bout of post COVID anxiety that
Speaker 2: manifested in the form of and I didn't know it
Speaker 2: at the time. It was when I quit smoking. It
Speaker 2: was why I quit smoking. Initially, I thought I was
Speaker 2: having heart attacks. I was, I was seeing. It first
Speaker 2: happened when I was seeing To Kill a Mockingbird on
Speaker 2: Broadway with Jeff Daniels, just before he left the show
Speaker 2: after COVID, Everyone's wearing a mask in the theater. We're
Speaker 2: all like look at each other, like, don't breathe. And
Speaker 2: I as soon as the show started, I feel like
Speaker 2: I'm having a heart attack, and I'm thinking, fuck, I'm
Speaker 2: going to be the guy they stopped the show for,
Speaker 2: and I'm leaving this theater in a stretcher. But I
Speaker 2: managed to breathe through it somehow. Anyway, panic attacks like
Speaker 2: that that felt like a heart attacks, anxiety, fatigue. I
Speaker 2: could not climb. I live on a night floor. Sometimes
Speaker 2: I would take the stairs just to keep my ass
Speaker 2: in the same place at Spenson's College, and I would
Speaker 2: get exhausted by the third floor, like I couldn't get
Speaker 2: to the third floor without feeling like my chest is
Speaker 2: going to explode. Did you get COVID was a result
Speaker 2: I did? This was what I learned later is that
Speaker 2: what I would the litany of these horrible, like sort
Speaker 2: of knocking at death's door feelings that I was getting
Speaker 2: were from a weird long COVID. I went to a
Speaker 2: long COVID care center at Mount Sina and she said,
Speaker 2: we're hearing a ton of this and there's nothing I
Speaker 2: have for you. You just kind of have to ride
Speaker 2: it out. And I just thought, oh Jesus so And
Speaker 2: there were emotional things I was. I was like a
Speaker 2: lot of people during COVID and lockdown and loneliness and isolation.
Speaker 2: I went to see a therapist about it and went
Speaker 2: for about a year. We had a really good, productive year,
Speaker 2: and she said, you know, I think you're doing really well.
Speaker 2: You can. I would love to keep seeing you if
Speaker 2: you want. But I think if you wanted to, you know,
Speaker 2: pump the brakes, we're good with that too. So I'm cured. No,
Speaker 2: that's a great therapist. But it was. We had a
Speaker 2: good It was very helpful, very helpful, and so I've
Speaker 2: done that. Exercise is helpful. I learned how to breathe.
Speaker 2: I wasn't breathing properly. You do yoga and stuff. No,
Speaker 2: there was this guy I heard on NPR. His name
Speaker 2: is James Nestor, and he wrote this book called Breath
Speaker 2: about three or four years ago, and he was on
Speaker 2: the book. It's very strange. I'm thinking about what about
Speaker 2: how we have done such damage to ourselves as a
Speaker 2: species through breathing improperly. It was kind of fascinating anyway,
Speaker 2: extremely helpful, game changing. It was on Fresh Air, I
Speaker 2: think with Terry Gross and so I gave that a
Speaker 2: shut it up. I'll send you the I'll send you
Speaker 2: the link to it. It's, yes, please, a game changer.
Speaker 2: The big takeaway inhale through the nose. We should not
Speaker 2: be breathing through our mouth, which I did not know. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but yeah, therapy. I am all for, really, Craig anything.
Speaker 2: I'm not opposed to medicine. I do take some like
Speaker 2: lipotour but I would like to be at a point
Speaker 2: where I am you know, food is medicine to me,
Speaker 2: and I would like to be eating better, exercising a
Speaker 2: little bit more and not need these medications. But for now,
Speaker 2: you know, fine.
Speaker 1: I think it's it's kind of a part of the
Speaker 1: Asian process, the modern Asian processes, is to get sanguine
Speaker 1: with with medication, a little bit, and.
Speaker 2: I I about two years ago, maybe a year ago, I.
Speaker 1: Had a an endoscope. My father died of sulfagio cancer,
Speaker 1: and I was experiencing.
Speaker 2: A lot of indigestion. So I had to get an endoscope.
Speaker 1: And they didn't find any barretts or any cancer stuff,
Speaker 1: but I was. I was getting constant indigestion, which was
Speaker 1: really awful.
Speaker 2: And they put me on these medications for a while,
Speaker 2: and I they really worked, but I've got such a
Speaker 2: resistance to that kind of thing. I just I also
Speaker 2: I also feel Look, I'm not a doctor, and I'm
Speaker 2: in no way qualified to say this, but I feel like,
Speaker 2: if you're on medication for a long time, it's got
Speaker 2: to be doing something to your lever, to your kidneys,
Speaker 2: to your it's got to be it's got to be
Speaker 2: doing something. It's just it's an extra thing. It's a
Speaker 2: it's another thing for it to deal with.
Speaker 1: And I know that modern medicine is a miracle, and
Speaker 1: I wouldn't tell anyone to stop taking medicine, but I
Speaker 1: I get a little uncomfortable.
Speaker 2: Being on anything for too long. You and me both,
Speaker 2: I know exactly what you're talking about, and I think, well,
Speaker 2: you touched upon this just now like without it. Uh,
Speaker 2: you know, it's this is this is a I don't
Speaker 2: want to say miracle, but it is a miracle of
Speaker 2: human ingenuity, medicines, vaccines, all of this stuff. I am
Speaker 2: all in it. I just there is a part of me.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's a little bit of a resentment. I don't
Speaker 2: want to be on the hook to the to the
Speaker 2: uh pharma monster for the rest of my life. You know,
Speaker 2: you know this is not that weight has ever been
Speaker 2: a struggle. But I know that there are people on it,
Speaker 2: and I think with GOV and ozampiic and stuff, but
Speaker 2: it's going to make a They're going to be game
Speaker 2: changers for so many people, and they were already.
Speaker 1: I talked to a couple I had a doctor on
Speaker 1: the podcast actually I was talking to about it, and
Speaker 1: he was saying, oh, no, these things were great.
Speaker 2: They're they're they're fabulous. The thing is about it. I
Speaker 2: also talked to a friend of mine who lost a lot.
Speaker 1: Of weight and he'd done it through having ozam pic
Speaker 1: and I said, I said, it works.
Speaker 2: Then clearly he said it does supposed to do. He said,
Speaker 2: you just don't. He's just not hungry. I said, I haven't.
Speaker 2: I don't eat because I'm hungry. I eat because I'm sad.
Speaker 2: I haven't been hungry since nineteen seventy four. I feelings,
Speaker 2: I'm it's just I'm like, that's why I TV. Feelings
Speaker 2: are delicious. Oh my god. Yeah, I love eating my feelings.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I think it's probably all wrapped up in
Speaker 1: the same dark magic of alcoholism and and food and sex.
Speaker 1: And did you ever get into any of the others,
Speaker 1: the gamblings or the compulsive sex or anything fabulous?
Speaker 2: Never with the gambling, And I never did anything stronger
Speaker 2: than weed. Well alcohol kills more people than any of them.
Speaker 2: But yeah, there were periods, not for a long time,
Speaker 2: but there were periods where my my sex drive was
Speaker 2: in hyperdrive. For sure.
Speaker 1: Well, if you're in great shape and you're drinking, those
Speaker 1: things can that can come together in a hail of
Speaker 1: a Look?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, waking up with people I ordinarily
Speaker 2: wouldn't sit next to on a bus, but hey, you
Speaker 2: know it's he kept me company for an evening. It's fine. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Is there a subway near here? Are in New York?
Speaker 2: I'm George, by the way, What about Uh? I I
Speaker 2: think a little bit about young people if they're being
Speaker 2: irresponsible or or being a little wild.
Speaker 1: As I sadly was when I was young. I I
Speaker 1: feel for them because they're being filmed.
Speaker 2: Yes, oh my god, Craig, could you imagine being active
Speaker 2: with the way people are now we have film studios
Speaker 2: and radio stations in our pockets. Yeah, no way, I'd
Speaker 2: be in so much trouble. Well, I think I think
Speaker 2: it it is.
Speaker 1: I mean, they're quite brutal with each other, the young
Speaker 1: I think they're they're all kind of like you know,
Speaker 1: they're they're tough, and and those those shame based tabloids
Speaker 1: and uh and you know these websites where he oh,
Speaker 1: well tmz.
Speaker 2: It's not one I really know very much. But I'm
Speaker 2: thinking more of like the British tabloid ones. They're they're awful,
Speaker 2: they're looking for a gotcha moment. I mean, but that
Speaker 2: that's not new for British tabloid culture though, no, I
Speaker 2: guess no, or even it.
Speaker 1: I mean, look, Hurst was a bit of a it
Speaker 1: was a bit of a gotcha character as well, but
Speaker 1: it was more about wars and power, you know, I
Speaker 1: think for him, well at the celebrity I mean even
Speaker 1: Did you read this Scotty Bowers book?
Speaker 2: Did you ever read that book? No?
Speaker 1: Do tell Oh my god, it's fantastic getting a pen.
Speaker 1: Scottie Bowers was, Uh, he was. I guess he was
Speaker 1: sort of a hooker in Hollywood.
Speaker 2: Oh, yes, I did. And I saw the documentary. I know, right, yeah,
Speaker 2: Scotty bow right. That's the name, right, Scottie. You might
Speaker 2: be wrong on the last name, but you might be
Speaker 2: right on the last name. But I know exactly what
Speaker 2: you're talking about. Blonde, the little sexually ambiguous. Liked it
Speaker 2: both ways, Yeah, but liked it more all the ways
Speaker 2: that can be liked, like a couple of years ago. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And the story in the book about Charles Lawnton, I
Speaker 1: don't know if that can be true. It can't be true.
Speaker 1: It's so bizarre for the kids at home. Please tell us, well,
Speaker 1: you tell it. I only saw the documentary. You read
Speaker 1: the right, but please go ahead.
Speaker 2: In the book, it's alleged that Charles Lawton paid someone
Speaker 2: to do a poop on a sandwich and then he
Speaker 2: sat down and ate it, and that was a thing
Speaker 2: for him. I can't believe that that's true. That there
Speaker 2: is a perversion for everyone. Yeah, I mean a ship sandwich.
Speaker 2: I mean literally, and yeah, I mean it's still like.
Speaker 1: This is a ship sandwich like an expression, it actually
Speaker 1: is a ship sandwich.
Speaker 2: I I mean, I hate to shame them, but I mean, wow,
Speaker 2: to each one get to that? Do you know what
Speaker 2: I mean? How do you get to the you know what?
Speaker 2: I'd like the menu of kinks? Like I'm so vanilla.
Speaker 2: Oh me too, I'm so vanilla, and just blow on it.
Speaker 2: I'm happy. I breeze does it for me on a
Speaker 2: good day? Come on? But wow? Is that in that
Speaker 2: Breathe book? By the way I learned it? Where I
Speaker 2: learned it, I don't know. I'm going to read that though,
Speaker 2: I'm to find some kind of and the audiobook is helpful.
Speaker 2: I actually I consumed it via audio book. Doing that
Speaker 2: all the time now me too. I love them all
Speaker 2: the time. I've become obsessed with gourvi Dal love. I
Speaker 2: wish they were still around. There were voices I wish
Speaker 2: were still around. His was one of them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Gourvidal Jordan Rivers two essential names that I think
Speaker 1: that we are diminished from. People always going about George Carlin,
Speaker 1: and he certainly was great, but the Jordan Rivers and
Speaker 1: gourvi Dal, those voices of dissent and troublemakers.
Speaker 2: They are sadly messed right now. I had the privilege
Speaker 2: of working for John Rivers at the end of the time.
Speaker 2: Really yeah, I ran her social media. No, I didn't
Speaker 2: know that true story. I started on Twitter and I
Speaker 2: was following her and she was whining about her assistant.
Speaker 2: I found out later was upset she couldn't change the
Speaker 2: you could change the color on your background on your
Speaker 2: page or whatever. Anyway, I offered to help, and then
Speaker 2: we were connected. And then I got to know her
Speaker 2: CEO of her company and her friend, and he reached
Speaker 2: out to me one day out of the blue and said,
Speaker 2: we're all doing Jones Instagram and Facebook, and we need
Speaker 2: a little someone to organize. We need someone to run
Speaker 2: this because we're all doing our own jobs and this
Speaker 2: we should have just someone doing just this for Joan.
Speaker 2: Would you be interested. I'm like, uh, yeah, So I
Speaker 2: signed that. I signed that NDA June of twenty fourteen
Speaker 2: and was with her for that summer, and then she
Speaker 2: died three months later. But I was running her social
Speaker 2: media and I was really writing Joe really loved her,
Speaker 2: you know. I never met Oh craig. She was first
Speaker 2: of all three feet tall. As a friend as a
Speaker 2: friend of mine said, there's something about that woman, whether
Speaker 2: you knew who it was or not, she just looked famous. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I know a couple of people like that. It's the hair,
Speaker 2: it's the jewels, it's the tailor, chanelle, jacket, whatever. She
Speaker 2: just looked famous. But smart, funny, groundbreaker, door kicker, opener,
Speaker 2: you know all of it. I mean, really a real
Speaker 2: game changer. Yeah. And Gorfidal as well, I feel is
Speaker 2: a voice that particularly the young, the young and the
Speaker 2: queer right now seemed to have a.
Speaker 1: Well maybe maybe they do connect to it, but I
Speaker 1: think he's he was such a great voice for current thinking.
Speaker 2: And I be articulate, oh, in a way that young
Speaker 2: people are not.
Speaker 1: I don't think to well, yeah, I mean through no
Speaker 1: follow their own I think that I think the the
Speaker 1: handheld devices are used badly or terrible, and you they're
Speaker 1: they're like, you know, if they're badly used, their you know,
Speaker 1: they they'll they'll destroy you. And if you use them
Speaker 1: the right way, they're they're fantastic, you know. And I
Speaker 1: but who's to say what's the right way? I just
Speaker 1: feel literacy is really dropping down with with the young.
Speaker 1: But maybe I'm wrong.
Speaker 2: Maybe with me, I'm I read a lot less because
Speaker 2: I use my phone for for somebody else to read me.
Speaker 2: I just last year started referring to other guys as
Speaker 2: bro like I just it's going down. No, not yet. No,
Speaker 2: I'm not there yet. I'm not going to I'm not
Speaker 2: gonna brow the the the gore Vidal thing, he was
Speaker 2: a master and such a such I would I encourage
Speaker 2: every young person to watch that. Uh find that clip
Speaker 2: on YouTube? And I think it was was it on
Speaker 2: the Cavit Show with him and Truman Capote? No Gorvidal
Speaker 2: and oh I know what you mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, I can't remember who it is.
Speaker 2: This was terrible. I want to refer to the social
Speaker 2: media world, but oh god, you know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2: William F. Buckley, Yes, legendary watching those two cats go
Speaker 2: at it, but uh uh yeah, particulate, smart and and
Speaker 2: loved his insights and his the way he had his
Speaker 2: finger on a certain pulse.
Speaker 1: It was just did you ever come across his novelization
Speaker 1: of Julie and the Apostate, No, the the the Roman Emperor?
Speaker 1: That tried to steer the world back to helen Hellenistic
Speaker 1: religion after constantine A changed, you know, it convert to
Speaker 1: the Roman Empire to Christianity, and it is it sounds
Speaker 1: like a kind of I think on the surface, it
Speaker 1: sounds like a rather kind of kind of academic study.
Speaker 1: And it is so entertaining. It's like fucking Game of Thrones.
Speaker 1: It's fabulous. I'm writing this down Julian. I think it's
Speaker 1: just called Julian. Actually, it's a wonderful, wonderful book. And
Speaker 1: then and then the Narratives of Empire, the the I
Speaker 1: think it's seven novels about the political history of the
Speaker 1: United States. Where are just fantastic. Yeah. I have decided, actually,
Speaker 1: because I've been banging on on this podcast and everywhere
Speaker 1: else about how much I loved Gorvie Dale's biography of
Speaker 1: arn Bird. I'm going to start petitioning someone to write
Speaker 1: a rebuttal to Hamilton on Broadway that you should have
Speaker 1: The Bird musical where you get the other point of view,
Speaker 1: because it was crazy and much more interesting than perhaps
Speaker 1: he's been portrayed into this sort of I mean, yes,
Speaker 1: a murderer, uh huh, Okay.
Speaker 2: But we all are going on. We all have our faults. Yes,
Speaker 2: progress not perfection.
Speaker 1: Come on, Yes, that's right. It's it's a you know,
Speaker 1: the idea that as while you're the vice president, you
Speaker 1: kill someone and a jewel and you go to try
Speaker 1: and raise an army, which I feel that's a skill
Speaker 1: that's been lost. I wouldn't know how to raise an
Speaker 1: army now. I don't think people know how to raise
Speaker 1: an army. No, no, would you know? No, it's a
Speaker 1: lost skill. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Would that be the same as well, let's not put
Speaker 2: it on par with inciting a mob? Well, it kind
Speaker 2: of is. Yeah, I think it is inciting the mob,
Speaker 2: but I think it's insite a mob and paying for
Speaker 2: extra people on top.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so, it's kay. I think it's probably closest
Speaker 1: to the ship sandwich. Okay, but but I don't know
Speaker 1: for sure. Delicious, Oh God, God, listen, we gotta go.
Speaker 2: But so we're best friends now? Right? Are we best
Speaker 2: friends now?
Speaker 1: Because that was my interview for to become at least
Speaker 1: a good friend, and I'm aiming for best friend slot.
Speaker 2: But I'm out of New York right now.
Speaker 1: I feel to actually get the coveted role of Hans's
Speaker 1: best friend. It would have to be, which actually sounds
Speaker 1: like a great show. Actually hands best friend. Oh that
Speaker 1: is good.
Speaker 2: Oh, I like Hans best friend. It's you.
Speaker 1: It's your podcast and you talk to people that are
Speaker 1: your friends, Hand's best friend.
Speaker 2: That's a great idea. I think you should do it,
Speaker 2: and please, if you do it, feel free to include
Speaker 2: me financially, no, fantastic, no, no, feel feel free to
Speaker 2: accept it with my with my this is illegally me
Speaker 2: gifting it to you right now on this podcast. I
Speaker 2: feel so touched and a good way, yeah, in all
Speaker 2: the right ways. Well, listen the next time I'm in
Speaker 2: New York, which I think will be fairly soon, Let's
Speaker 2: get together and go somewhere great. Please.
Speaker 1: I would love that so much. Yes, me too, I
Speaker 1: really would. And keep doing what you're doing. You are
Speaker 1: a force for good and high quality entertainment and a
Speaker 1: world of in a giant shit sandwich, You're You're a
Speaker 1: lovely raison of deliciousness.
Speaker 2: Ah, sir, you make my day with these kind words
Speaker 2: to your kindness, and I admire you so and thank
Speaker 2: you for having me on your podcast. I've been a
Speaker 2: fan for so long. This is such a this is
Speaker 2: such a kick for me.
Speaker 1: Well, it's it's, it's totally me so so thanks and
Speaker 1: well and most speak So I look forward to all right,
Speaker 1: all right,