1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,519 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom never told you from how Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: dot com. Well, welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline and 3 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: I'm Christian and we are not contrary to whatever the 4 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: title of this episode maybe talking about the history of 5 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: witchcraft and WICCA specifically. Instead, we wanted to focus more 6 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: on how both men and women throughout our modern history 7 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: have used these two things Wika and Witchcraft, for sort 8 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: of their own purposes, shaped the history of these things 9 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: to fit narratives that were interesting and convenient for them 10 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: at the time. Well, I mean, and wick is still 11 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: super popular today and still has lots of feminists underpinnings 12 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: as well. Absolutely WICKA and Witchcraft, although some people would 13 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: say that those are interchangeable. Um, I saw it explained 14 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: as like the way that Catholicism, Mr. Christianity WIKA is 15 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 1: to Witchcraft. So WIKA has much longer ceremonies, Yeah, more 16 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: smells and bells. As a family friends says, spells and bells. 17 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: That does that a lot like Witchcraft. I know, all 18 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: of that boiled, boiled, toil and trouble or whatever it is. 19 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: I have Newts so exhausted. It's like about feminist eyes 20 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: of newt today on the podcast. We're gonna cook up 21 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: some potions, cast some spells hopefully on your listening ears 22 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 1: love it um. Actual witches are listening and being like, 23 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: we are being so poorly represented right now because it's 24 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: not all about spell casting. Obviously it's not, because there's 25 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: no such thing. Yeah, yeah, we should disspel that, Caroline, 26 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: See what I did there. We're also going to dispel 27 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: some other notions Kristen, namely at WICCA and witchcraft. Is 28 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: this ancient connection to our matriarchal, lady loving, solely peaceful, 29 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 1: utopian past and that it was fostered completely by women. 30 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 1: Oh man, so many spoilers just got alerted, So many spoilers. 31 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 1: But first, let's break down kind of what we're talking 32 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: about today. We're we're talking about two main ideas Wicca, 33 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: like we've said, but also this idea of the Goddess 34 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 1: movement and Goddess feminism. Goddess blessed that whole thing that 35 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: some people put on bumper stickers on their cars exactly. 36 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: So the Goddess movement is the worshiping of the divine feminine, 37 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: the archetypal mother, and they really pushed the idea that 38 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: women need to understand their own value. And this comes 39 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: into when you look at feminist Wicca in particular. So 40 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 1: there's Wicca, which is a neopagan religion. Practitioners sometimes call 41 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: themselves witches. They worship a duo of a and God 42 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: and a moon goddess, although of course there are variations, 43 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: but that feminist Wicca and the goddess movement are super 44 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: closely aligned because feminist Wicca is a goddess religion, so 45 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: maybe they don't hold that horned God in the same 46 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 1: type of standing that they do the goddess. But it 47 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 1: also incorporates a lot of things like green and eco 48 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: politics and folk medicine, and is also super concerned with 49 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: women empowering themselves. And there are all sorts of offshoots 50 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: including Dianic Wicca, Native American Wicca, Greek and Egyptian lesbian separatists, 51 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: wise woman healers. I mean, they are all different forms, 52 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: kind of like feminism that it can take different interpretations 53 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: that people can have. And I guess you would also 54 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: say that they would practice through their Wicca. And I 55 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: always thought that Wicca and witchcraft were these ancient practices, 56 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: like a lot of people have said, I had no 57 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: idea that its origins were so much more modern than 58 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: all of that. And it really is back to the 59 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: nineteenth century, particularly uh Masonic ritual and occult obsessions with 60 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: both goddesses and matriarchies that were pretty much like in 61 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: vogue during that time and mostly though bended about by 62 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 1: dudes who were grateful not to be in those matriarchies. 63 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 1: So the matriarchies were discussed as an example of look 64 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: how far we've come. Yeah, basically when when all those 65 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: moon goddesses ruled everything. Um, Yeah, when we look at 66 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:35,359 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century, you have the rise of secret societies, 67 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: occult practices, spiritualism, and rejection of orthodox religion. And I mean, 68 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: I love this period of time because some people are 69 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: really kind of losing their minds. Yeah, this is when 70 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: we see a lot of mediums. You know, Kristen and 71 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: I did that episode way back in the day, were 72 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: mediums the first feminists. And it's so funny to me 73 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: to think about it that, yes, there was a movement 74 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: away from organiz as traditional religion, but much like Fox 75 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: Molder Kristen, people still want to believe it's such human 76 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: nature that even if you reject Christianity, in general, or Judaism, 77 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: or or just a subset of either of those religions, 78 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: or any religion. You still have this drive to believe 79 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: in something bigger than yourself. And I think that's such 80 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: a human trait. And in this case, it was all 81 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: about the occult and these mystical forces that weren't really Christian, 82 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: weren't really Jewish, they were something else that sort of 83 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: borrowed from these new traditions that were arising in the 84 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 1: nineteenth century. Well, and it seems like a lot of 85 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 1: them were really enamored with the power of nature, the 86 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: magic in nature. So during the Romantic period, which is 87 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 1: in the first half of the nineteenth century, you have 88 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: these mostly male German and French thinkers who are really 89 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: interested in natural forces, particularly those aligned with women, because 90 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: you know, as we've often talked about, you know, nature 91 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: is considered very feminine and maternal. Think about fertility and 92 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: all that all that jazz, all that jazz. Well you 93 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 1: also have to uh take into consideration that around this 94 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: time people are starting to sort of project a lot 95 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 1: of meaning onto the classic gods and goddesses that have 96 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: been displaced by Christianity. So all of a sudden you 97 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:28,559 Speaker 1: have a lot of people, both artists, writers, poets, who 98 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 1: are starting to associate in their works of art, whether 99 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:36,679 Speaker 1: that is writing or like painting or sculpture. Um, they're 100 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: starting to associate these gods and goddesses with the natural world, 101 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: with natural mystical forces, rather than how back in ye 102 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: old and Greek times people tended to look at these 103 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:53,679 Speaker 1: gods and goddesses as sort of petty, bigger holy versions 104 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 1: of ourselves, like they all had fights, and we're cheating 105 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: on each other and causing wars and strife and basically 106 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 1: men ling in human endeavors. So the way that the 107 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: Romantics were looking at him was more like, well, yeah, maybe, 108 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: but they're they're mystical, and they're they're influencing nature, they're 109 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: part of nature. And so this is when we also 110 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: get Mother Earth and things like fairies, which were typically 111 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 1: tiny ladies, popping up as popular deities and figures in literature. 112 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: And there's a big milestone in eighteen forty nine when 113 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: German classicist Edward Gerrard becomes the first to assert that 114 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: all ancient goddesses derived from a single mother goddess. And 115 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: this is really Caroline has made me think a lot 116 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: about the title of our podcast, stuff Mom Never Told You. 117 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: Should we update that to like stuff single Mother Goddess 118 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: Never told you? Although the answer would be like nothing, 119 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: because she's the single mother Goddess, of course she probably 120 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: knows all, so it just would. But that doesn't mean 121 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: she would tell us everything. She's also afraid to have 122 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 1: the birds and bees and periods conversation. The single mother 123 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: God has never prepared us for monarchy. Thanks a lot, 124 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: Thanks a lot. But it's important to keep in mind 125 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: that this narrative is developing despite the fact that ancient 126 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: religions were polytheistic. There's really not much evidence that these societies. 127 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 1: These ancient societies worshiped a single archetypal goddess. Yes, they 128 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: had goddesses, but this man driven narrative is developing in 129 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century that like, oh, there was just one 130 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: pure earthy mother goddess who was worshiped by all of 131 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: these societies. Do you think there was sort of mixing 132 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:45,439 Speaker 1: things up with like the cults that would arise around 133 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: specific gods and goddesses to like the cult of Diana 134 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: or the cult of Dionysus. Men, it could be. I mean, 135 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: there were there were discussions about things like the cult 136 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: of of Diana. People can uh not Princess Diana listeners 137 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: by the goddess Diana. Yeah, I mean there were people 138 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 1: who were convinced that there were still Dianic cults going 139 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: on in the nineteenth century, that they were just like 140 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: hidden away in pockets, that we had yet to find 141 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: pocket change their tiny cults, pocket pocket sized tiny cults. Um. 142 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: And in eighteen sixty one you've got Swiss jurist and 143 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 1: writer Johann yakobakafin nice pronunciation that people would disagree with you. Ah, 144 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 1: he positive that our earliest societies were matriarchies. That sounds great, 145 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: I love it. Let's stop there, feminists, and there are 146 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: a number of feminist thinkers who talk a lot in 147 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: terms of the ancient matriarch. This is this is I mean, 148 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: this is why we're giving you this this nineteenth century 149 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: history fair listeners to to explain where this idea came from. However, 150 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: it wasn't a positive but coffin, I don't know if 151 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:59,719 Speaker 1: that's really h could be more of a cough and 152 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: says on the cop and bo copon real popping up 153 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: here and the mic he and others saw patriarchy as 154 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: a victory of rationality over those feminine, those traditional feminine 155 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: traits of instinct, nurturing, and closeness to nature. So basically like, yes, 156 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 1: these ancient societies were matriarchies. I'm sure of it, because 157 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: look at how powerful and amazing we are now that 158 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: we've done away with all of that. Oh that's interesting. 159 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: It's kind of a way to elevate and celebrate. I 160 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: didn't need to make that rhyme, these patriarchal structures. And 161 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: aren't we so glad we have our separate spheres and 162 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: women aren't allowed to go outside and get jobs because 163 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:47,319 Speaker 1: their uteruses will float away. Some serious humble bragging happening 164 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: then in this early matriarchy philosophy and theories. So by 165 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,839 Speaker 1: the early twentieth century it was generally assumed then that, 166 00:10:55,960 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: of course, these ancient Mediterranean religions definitely worshiped a great 167 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 1: mother Earth goddess over everything else, and drawing on nineteenth 168 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: century thought, including the patronizing Victorian idea that ancient cultures 169 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: didn't realize men played a role in reproduction. Basically, any 170 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: archaeological sites and corresponding female figures or representations that were 171 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: uncovered were thought as evidence of the goddess worship. So, 172 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: for instance, one archaeological expedition that's frequently cited in UH 173 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: texts about the development of this goddess worship idea is 174 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:42,239 Speaker 1: uncovering things at Minoan temples from Minoan society and finding 175 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: artistic representations of women um and just assuming that they 176 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: were either goddesses or that they were participating in a 177 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 1: goddess worship ritual. There was no like, hey, maybe this 178 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: could mean something else, or these women could be doing 179 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: something else, like who knows, shopping, I don't know, but 180 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: it was automatically assumed by a lot of these people 181 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: that like, oh, no, there's just women. It just means 182 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: that they're worshiping a goddess. They didn't stop to think, like, 183 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,239 Speaker 1: maybe something else is going on. Although I gotta say 184 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: that I like the idea that in the far future 185 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: that if people find the relics of my life, people 186 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: would just assume, oh, evidence of the she was goddess, 187 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: people just worshiping her, you know, yeah, fingers crossed with 188 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: all your YouTube videos with us, with the cash of videos, like, 189 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: people will automatically assume, yes, when people find the pile 190 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:39,959 Speaker 1: of my YouTube wigs be like, obviously, goddess, she had 191 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: so much hair, she just disappeared. That's all that's left 192 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 1: of her. So where does Wicca come into all of this? 193 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 1: It makes a surprisingly late arrival in the mid twentieth 194 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: century thanks to a guy named Jerry. Yeah, amateur anthropologist 195 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 1: Gerald B. Gardner. Uh, he seems like quite a rabble rouser. 196 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: This this Jerry, He belonged to an organization. It was 197 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:08,679 Speaker 1: influenced by many nineteenth century occultist groups, which themselves, by 198 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 1: the way, ps were influenced by Freemasons. And in the 199 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, Gardner, having all of these influences from this 200 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: like secret society that he's part of, and having read 201 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 1: all of this stuff by the Romantic authors and poets, 202 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: he introduces a religion that he calls Wicca with only 203 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 1: one see, which he claimed, I love this. He didn't 204 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 1: bother to say why, yes, I've developed this system of 205 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: beliefs and rituals. No, he figured that that would not 206 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: get his religion enough. I don't know, we would say 207 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: clicks nowadays in the Internet. It wasn't clickbaitia enough. No, 208 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 1: he claimed that he encountered these religious beliefs and practices 209 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: through a friendly coven of witches with ties to the 210 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: ancient religion in his organization. But the thing is like 211 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: people have people like very surely they're after up to 212 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: today have gone back and been like there's there's no 213 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: evidence that these people even existed. But the timing of 214 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: this is worth mentioning too, because Gardner kind of debuts 215 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: WICCA in nineteen fifty three, which was made possible by 216 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: the Witchcraft Act finally being repealed in Britain in nineteen 217 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: fifty one. So it was all about timing. Otherwise it 218 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: would have he would have had to have kept it 219 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: more underground because it would be illegal. But like you said, Caroline, 220 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: it wasn't like he was unveiling some ancient religion, but 221 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: rather what was and and not to disparage Wicka at all, 222 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 1: but in terms of what Gardner was presenting in some 223 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:48,359 Speaker 1: ways it was a hodgepodge of ideas that he collected 224 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 1: from British occultists Elis Sir Crowley, Charles Godfrey Leland, who 225 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: was a nineteenth century American amateur folklorist who had claimed 226 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: he found a surviving cult of Diana in Italy. This 227 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: pocket got us. He founds a pocket gottess is polypocket 228 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: gott us. And mainly though he pulled from British egyptologist 229 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: Margaret Alice Murray. Yeah, and Murray herself was inspired by 230 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: Leyland and in the nineteen twenties developed a framework of 231 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: Wickan ritual and belief. She even wrote the introduction to 232 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: Gardner's nineteen fifty four books like that's how intimately aligned 233 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: they were. And Margaret Alice Murray is a pretty interesting 234 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: figure in and of herself, as if you couldn't tell 235 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: by the whole, like egyptologist developing a Wiccan religion thing. 236 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: She wrote the book The Witch Cult in Western Europe 237 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: in nineteen twenty one, And I know we're backing up here, 238 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: but it did regain popularity in the forties and fifties 239 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: thanks to people like Gardener and the growth of what 240 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: we call modern Wicca. And this witch cult book was 241 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: notable because what she did was combed through accused witches 242 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: confessions and treat them Egyptologists that she was as ethnographic data, 243 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: in other words, considering them truthful as opposed to just 244 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: being confessions under duress that aren't to be trusted. Yeah, 245 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: and so she noticed patterns in some of the testimony, 246 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: and she wanted to know why so many of these 247 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: accused witches had said similar things, like, for instance, they 248 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 1: had signed a pack with the devil, they had engaged 249 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: in ritual orgies, they possessed magical powers. To me, this 250 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: just sounds like a college party so far. And she concluded, 251 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: based on the testimony of people who witnessed the trials, 252 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: that there had not been torture, that these people were 253 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: really part of an organized religion or fertility cult that 254 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: had survived in Europe since ancient time. So there's this 255 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: idea again that modern Wicca and witchcraft was connected to 256 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: an ancient lady religion, and all of this helped strengthen 257 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: the ideas that witchcraft again was super ancient, stretched back 258 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: to the Paleolithic era, and that the Church had tried 259 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 1: to eradicate it. And in fact, she linked Witchcraft's horned 260 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: god that we mentioned a while back to ancient cave paintings, 261 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: and she said the leader of a coven would wear 262 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:15,360 Speaker 1: horns and was called the devil by early Christians, indicating 263 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 1: that this is how Christianity came up with the horned 264 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: depiction of the devil. Yeah, And so basically she argued 265 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 1: that when witches on trial confessed to worshiping the devil, 266 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: they weren't saying, yes, I worship our Lord Satan. That 267 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: it was like, no, we are a peaceful nature people 268 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: who in our coven, you know, swore loyalty to our officer, who, 269 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: as part of the ritual, boots on a set of 270 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 1: horns and we danced around a fire or whatever. So basically, 271 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: these people are harmless, and witchcraft is ancient and the 272 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,199 Speaker 1: Church is evil. She also, by the way, did assert 273 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: that fairies were real and that they had a matriarchal culture. 274 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: So you throw in some sonic influence and para influence. 275 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: Which side note, Caroline, we do need to do an 276 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: episode all about tarot cards. Heck yeah, oh my god, 277 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: middle school Caroline. Oh, were you into taro rooms and 278 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 1: taro See? I was like, I was like the people 279 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:13,439 Speaker 1: at the beginning that I mentioned, like I have to 280 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: believe in something because I'm not into Christianity. Well, I 281 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: can't wait for our podcast tarot card reading. But in 282 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: addition to those things, you have archaic language, especially in spells, rituals, nudism. 283 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: Because Gardner was a nudist and a little bit of 284 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: ritual sex, and you have modern American Wicca basically in 285 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 1: the way that Gardner outlined it. But Caroline, you gotta 286 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:44,679 Speaker 1: give an honorable mention to Doreen Edith Dominique Valenti because 287 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: without her, Gardner's ideas probably would not have been as 288 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:54,360 Speaker 1: successful as they were. Um. She became one of the 289 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:58,719 Speaker 1: most influential leaders of WICCA and as part of why 290 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: the religion is seen as women friendly today. So she 291 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: was initiated into WICCA in nine three, so she was 292 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: there from the early days and yes, um and she 293 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 1: was responsible for writing much of early Gardenerian religious liturgy, 294 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: and in later years she played a big part in 295 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: bringing WICCA into wider public attention because she was very prolific. 296 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: So she wrote an ABC of Witchcraft, Natural Magic, Witchcraft 297 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,400 Speaker 1: for Tomorrow, and the Rebirth of Witchcraft. So I mean 298 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:34,919 Speaker 1: she was really spreading a lot of a lot of 299 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: this stuff about fascinating. So she is she would you 300 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 1: argue that she helped attract women to WICCA and witchcraft 301 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: during that time, because I mean that was part of 302 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:49,199 Speaker 1: the attraction to it in the first place, was that 303 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: there was room for female leadership and an unlike more 304 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: traditional religions like Christianity that hasn't always been so kind 305 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: to female leadership. You don't say, well, speaking of that 306 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: impressive woman, I think you mean which, Caroline, I sure do. 307 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 1: No impressive which, no disrespect because it's us. We should 308 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,479 Speaker 1: probably now talk about how we get our modern links 309 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 1: between feminism and the practice of wicked and witchcraft, because 310 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 1: you know, we mentioned that all of those nineteenth century 311 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: romantic dudes, we're basically like, oh, thank god, we're We're 312 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 1: past that matriarchy period in our history. It was a 313 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:31,479 Speaker 1: dark period. Once we get into the twentieth century and 314 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 1: we get into first wave and second wave feminism, you 315 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 1: have a lot of women saying, no, it's not that 316 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: we're past it. It's that we're just in this like awful, 317 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,640 Speaker 1: terrible patriarchal holding period before we get back to our 318 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:48,360 Speaker 1: matriarchal cultures. And so we will talk all about that 319 00:20:48,640 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: after a quick break. So in the first half of show, 320 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: we talked a lot about dudes, and people might have 321 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 1: been scratching their heads because the child of this podcast 322 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: is feminist witchcraft, and they're probably like, Christine, Caroline, where 323 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 1: are you talking so much about dudes, where's all the 324 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: feminism and all this stuff? That's right, Feminism and witchcraft 325 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 1: have been pretty closely aligned, and not just since second 326 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 1: way feminism with the actual literal group that was called 327 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: which it has its roots in the suffrage movement, to 328 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: with star witchcraft scholar Matilda Joscely Engage, and of course 329 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 1: you might recognize her name from being oh, a feminist leader, 330 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: a suffragist, and a historian. She used the narrative of 331 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: witchcraft and the witch hunt and witch trials to enlighten 332 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 1: her readers about basically how the church was damaging women. 333 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 1: She wanted to give women a historical context for their oppression, 334 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: so she wrote the book Woman, Church and State and 335 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: traced the witch hunts and executions who are religious belief 336 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,120 Speaker 1: in the quote extreme wickedness of woman who would sell 337 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: her soul to the devil to become a witch. And 338 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: basically through her book, Gauge was responding to a conservative 339 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: movement in society to blur the lines between church and state, 340 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: which sounds familiar, and she was determined. This woman was 341 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: determined to educate new suffragists in the movement, those who 342 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: wanted to use their potential vote to support the more 343 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: conservative blurring of the lines changes about the ways in 344 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,160 Speaker 1: which the church had harmed women. She was basically like, look, 345 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: we have this history of the church burning women at 346 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: the stake using the excuse of witchcraft. So let's talk 347 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: about witches and let's talk about how the witch hunt 348 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: was really a woman hunt. Yeah. She was like, just 349 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: subout women for witch and your eyes will be open 350 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: to everything. And she argued that witches could be good 351 00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 1: and we're simply what she called women of superior non colledge. 352 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 1: And this is a fascinating pop cultural connection between first 353 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: wave suffrage, witchcraft, Matilda Joscely Engage, and The Wizard of 354 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: Oz because listeners prepared to have your mind blown. Her 355 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:21,199 Speaker 1: concept of good women as witches inspired ultimately Glenda, the 356 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: good Witch and the Wicked Witch of the West in 357 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 1: The Wizard of Oz. That's right. Yeah, she was the 358 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: mother in law of Frank Bomb, who wrote The Wizard 359 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: of Oz. She inspired this duo because, according to bombs biographer, 360 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 1: Glinda's power came from within herself. That's an idea that 361 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: Gauge inspired and it's also a theme that we will 362 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 1: revisit when we talk about second wave feminism and modern WICCA. 363 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 1: But Gauge put forward the idea, she was one of 364 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,199 Speaker 1: the first women to do so, that the idea that 365 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: Christianity had always restricted the quote liberty women enjoyed under 366 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: the old civil station. So there's that idea again of 367 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 1: that like super free, utopian, peaceful, woman driven society. And 368 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: she highlighted the Church's targeting of women in the witch hunts, 369 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: and she pointed to their persecution of women of remarkable 370 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: intellect and beauty who were thought to be in league 371 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: with the devil, which is very similar to how we 372 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 1: even pop culturally portray which is a lot of times today. Um, 373 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 1: but this is really important. She made the claim that 374 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 1: the Church had executed upwards of nine million people, mostly women, 375 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: for witchcraft, and this was kind of her hook with 376 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,719 Speaker 1: all of it, of like, look at this massacre that 377 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 1: has happened. This is clear cut evidence of how the 378 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: Church has pathologically targeted all of these women. So, ladies, 379 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,199 Speaker 1: we need to cut ties. You need to get wise 380 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: to this history or history rather. Um. But the thing 381 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: is modern historians put that number much closer to afforded 382 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: to fifty tho. Nonetheless, her argument and that startling number 383 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: of nine million, which was not entirely accurate, was effective. 384 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 1: I mean, it was very easy for women of her 385 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: day in the nineteenth century to feel connected to the witchy, 386 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 1: especially if they were people like Gauge who wanted suffrage, 387 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: who wanted freedom, who wanted to exercise their intellect. Um. 388 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:31,439 Speaker 1: So you have this this first connection between feminism and 389 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: witchcraft of basically the essence of it being any woman 390 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: who was not interested in the patriarchy. Yeah, it was. 391 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: It was giving women that historical foundation of you once 392 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,919 Speaker 1: had power, the church did away with it. When we 393 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: get the vote, you cannot support the church because look 394 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 1: at this colorful and tragic history that we've had. We 395 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 1: need to get back to a place where women have power. 396 00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: So it's easy to see why nineteenth century women suffered, 397 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: just in particular, would be attracted to that narrative. When 398 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,360 Speaker 1: we get into the second wave of feminism, though, it's 399 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: less about that witchtory establishing the witchtory, because by then 400 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:16,159 Speaker 1: it's already well established, it's ingrained in a lot of narratives, 401 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 1: and it's more about just smashing that patriarchy, of saying okay, yeah, Matilda, 402 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 1: Jocelyn engage gave us this history. We believe in it. 403 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: Let's get back now to a point where things are 404 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 1: driven by women. So in things get about as second 405 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 1: wave as they possibly can. When you have a group 406 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: of New York feminists led by Robin Morrigan form which 407 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 1: which stands for Women's International Terrorists, Conspiracy from Hell and 408 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:46,919 Speaker 1: listen people, they had like zero to do with WIKA. 409 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: They were not religious in any way, shape or form. 410 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: They were more intent on an anarchic sisterhood that urge 411 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 1: women to claim their power. I mean they're essentially like 412 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: going around and disrupting things. So there. Their favorite was 413 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: to target centers of financial, corporate and academic power with 414 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:13,119 Speaker 1: very theatrical kinds of protests. And they first struck Halloween 415 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:17,199 Speaker 1: on Wall Street, which they referred to as the Imperialist 416 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 1: Phallic Society, And they danced in front of the Federal 417 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: Reserve Treasury Bank, led by a high priestess toting a 418 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:29,880 Speaker 1: paper machee pighead on a golden platter, and they surrounded 419 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,919 Speaker 1: a George Washington statue and defaced it with which stickers, 420 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,360 Speaker 1: which got them kicked out of that area, but they 421 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 1: kept on going. They just ran through Manhattan essentially later 422 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: that night, for instance, they exorcised a burlesque cows. They 423 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 1: put a hex on max factor at a beauty clinic, 424 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 1: and they went to a fancy restaurant and handed out 425 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: garlic clothes and cards reading we are which, we are women, 426 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,080 Speaker 1: we are liberation, we are we. These women were not 427 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,679 Speaker 1: to be stopped. And you gotta hand it to some 428 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: second wave feminists, like, yeah, they weren't so great with intersectionality, 429 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: but my goodness, were they theatrical in their protests? Yeah, 430 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 1: they sure were. There are some great pictures if you Google, 431 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: or if you go to stuff I've Never Told You 432 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 1: dot com and look at the source pots for this episode, 433 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: you can find a link to an article about which 434 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,119 Speaker 1: But there's some great photos out there of them like 435 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,880 Speaker 1: running around screaming, trying to be as scary as possible. 436 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: But yeah, like christ And said, this was obviously not 437 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 1: a religion, This was not part of wicca as goddess worship, 438 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: but it was based on the idea that which is 439 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 1: where the original quote guerrillas and resistance fighters against oppression, 440 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: particularly the oppression of women, right down the ages. Again, 441 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:47,479 Speaker 1: there's that reference to like an ancient female driven religion 442 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: that's been passed down. Yeah, I mean. And they also 443 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 1: called themselves covens, like rather than some kind of support groups. 444 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: There were covens that sprung up all around Boston, Chicago, 445 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: San Francisco, North Carolina. I was surprised, and he was 446 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: in the research triangle. So um, and they played around 447 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 1: two with the which acronym um Not all went by 448 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: Women's International Terrorist conspiracy from Hill. There's also women inspired 449 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: to commit her story um. Also women in sensit telephone 450 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: company harassment, which listen, ladies, I can get behind in that. 451 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: But they called their strikes zapps and I like that. 452 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: In nineteen nine, some covens zapped bridal fairs in San 453 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: Francisco and New York because they said, quote, marriage is 454 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 1: a dehumanizing institution, legal hordom for women. Yeah. Can you 455 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: imagine being in a bridal fair and having a bunch 456 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 1: of women with their faces painted white, wearing all black 457 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: running in and telling you you're a whore? Hello, say 458 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: yes to the dress? Zapp it. I'd finally watched that show. 459 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: Uh God. Every time every time I go home and 460 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: hang out with my mother, she's watching a show and 461 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: she always looks at me, and she's like, one day, 462 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: when this is you, I promise I won't be like 463 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: these terrible mothers who judge their their daughter's dresses. And 464 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm not sure what planet you're living on, 465 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: but that's absolutely going to be you anyhoo. I mean 466 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: it's Caroline. It sounds like for what your tone that 467 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: we are, you're primed to zapp yes to the dress. 468 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 1: I'm saying is that I can envision the headline, you know, 469 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: feminist podcasters arrested dressed up as witches arrested on TLC 470 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: say yes to the dress. Shoot sight Yeah, okay, it's 471 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: a little bit long, alright, it is a little tweaking. Yeah, 472 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 1: but I'm just saying it's got all the ingredients for 473 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: a viral post. We can bring Stacy London along, and 474 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 1: I have a witch hat perfect, I have a top 475 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: hat perfect, and things don't slow down by any means. 476 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: In one we get spiritual feminist Zusanna Budapest, who starts 477 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 1: the lovely named I love this name, Susan Anthony Coven 478 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: number one. Yes, she ignored traditional wiccas, so we're not 479 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: talking about feminist wicca. She ignored traditional wiccas. Secrecy and 480 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 1: their inclusion of men in order to both bring more 481 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: women into the fold and teach more women about the religion. 482 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: And of course she gave her groups protests of religious bent. 483 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: You know, they would also be protesting the financial and 484 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 1: the corporate but using candles and chants and things like 485 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:29,959 Speaker 1: that to really give it sort of an eerie vibe. 486 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: And I was interested to learn that it was around 487 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: this time that some Wiccans who were not so interested 488 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 1: in Susan b. Anthony coven number one and its cohorts, 489 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: complained that feminist witchcraft was this American product, that was 490 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: something that started in the US, and in fact, some 491 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 1: British mail Wiccands, because remember Jerry Gardner and during VALENTI 492 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: started everything in the UK, and some British mail Wiccans 493 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 1: were especially put off by feminist witchcraft, equipping that it 494 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: was just populated by a load of lesbians. Now, hang on, 495 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: Gerald Gardner basically just invented something like out of something 496 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: that wasn't real. So so then you have male Wiccans 497 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 1: in England saying, how dare you create your own Wiccan 498 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: outpost outcropping of this religion that seems a little funny 499 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 1: doesn't it. I like your simultaneous skepticism and support of happening. 500 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: Right now, I know I'm a complex individual. So the 501 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: following year, in two, this is after Susanna Budapest has 502 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: started the Susan b Anthony covin Glorious Steinhum writes an 503 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: essay about ancient gno centric society's echoing. She echoes, you, guys, 504 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: she's echoing the idea, the Victorian patronizing idea that ancients 505 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: societies didn't understand the whole paternity issue and that women 506 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: were indeed worshiped for their fertility. So I appreciate what's 507 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 1: happening in order to like inspire women and try to 508 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 1: empower them and give them a connection to a girl 509 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: power past. However, like, can we please do away with 510 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: this idea that people don't understand how babies are made? 511 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 1: I mean, this isn't the movie Lagoon right where Brookshields 512 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: doesn't understand how pregnancy works. But women did undeniably have 513 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 1: a very intimate connection obviously to things like pregnancy, but 514 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: to childbirth as well. And this is something that comes 515 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: more into play the following year, in nineteen seventy three, 516 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: when Barbara Aaron Reich and Dear dre English Penn the 517 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: booklet Witches, Midwives and Nurses, making the case that women 518 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: need to reclaim their place in medicine as healers um, 519 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: because before medicine became more male dominated and professionalized, when 520 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: it came to childbirth, it happened exclusively at home under 521 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: the guidance of usually a female midwife. And you have 522 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 1: similar things happening in terms of herbalists and natural healers um, 523 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 1: which were usually women as well. Yeah, and so this 524 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,919 Speaker 1: pair we're saying that which is, were just healers whom 525 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,799 Speaker 1: the church sought to discredit, And a lot of other 526 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,799 Speaker 1: scholars would argue, well, in fact, a lot of the 527 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 1: women who were accused and executed were not necessarily the 528 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 1: leaders and pillars of the community, the intelligent healers. A 529 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: lot of these women were poor and had nothing to 530 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,360 Speaker 1: do with sort of leadership. It was more about having 531 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: an unfortunate reputation basically in your neighborhood and then getting 532 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 1: accused of being a witch. Well, and wasn't there also 533 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: a lot of mistrust if these women were old and 534 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,759 Speaker 1: had no children, Yes, so that that was part of 535 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 1: it too, Like if you and how is that any 536 00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 1: different from ten, Like, if you fall outside the no 537 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,319 Speaker 1: warms of society, we're going to be suspicious of you. Yeah. 538 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 1: Instead of calling us witches, they just call us selfish bitches. Well, 539 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 1: I mean there's still spinster Yeah, that's still around. I 540 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 1: mean people looked at spinster women back in the day 541 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 1: and we're like, she's a witch, turned me into a 542 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: newt And it's the same today. You know, people are 543 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 1: always accusing me of turning them into nuts. And for 544 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:26,760 Speaker 1: that though, for that reason, I totally totally totally get this, 545 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: especially second wave fascination with witches and witchcraft in the 546 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 1: desire to reclaim that in a way. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, 547 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 1: you have someone like the very influential California which Miriam 548 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 1: star Hawk semos in nine publishes the book The Spiral Dance, 549 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 1: a Rebirth of the ancient Religion of the Great Goddess, 550 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 1: And much like Matilda Joscely Engage and Margaret Alice Murray, 551 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:57,359 Speaker 1: who had sort of inserted these snippets of sort of 552 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: foe history into our narrative of of empowerment, uh Semus 553 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: did the same thing, and she herself, by the way, 554 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 1: speaking of reclaiming that whole idea of woman as powerful 555 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: not scary. I do think it's interesting to note that 556 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 1: star Hawk, as she calls herself, has said that she 557 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,760 Speaker 1: identifies as a witch because it forces people to confront 558 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: why they fear the word. So, I mean, I think 559 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,359 Speaker 1: that's an interesting perspective on it. But in her book, Uh, 560 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,799 Speaker 1: star Hawk lays out all of these ideas and ideals 561 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 1: around Wicca that aren't entirely accurate and that are borrowed 562 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,839 Speaker 1: from those feminist women who came before. She claims that 563 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: it's the oldest religion, going back thirty five thousand years, 564 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,400 Speaker 1: that its earliest adherents worshiped a mother goddess and a 565 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: horned god. You know, we've been over all of this. 566 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 1: She says, it was part of a peaceful, woman centric, 567 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: egalitarian society until those jerks, the Indo European man people, 568 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:57,400 Speaker 1: rode through on their horse beasts, springing war and weapons 569 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: and patriarchy, which she claimed didn't exist until this happened. 570 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:06,760 Speaker 1: And so then she jumps from the arrival of Indo 571 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:11,440 Speaker 1: European patriarchy to then moving on to Christianity, which then 572 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 1: leads her to discuss the witch hunts and executions, and 573 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:19,879 Speaker 1: she also puts forward Matilda Gauge's figure of nine million executed. 574 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 1: And so her book, which by the way, is still 575 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,400 Speaker 1: a lot of people's first introduction to Wicca, inspires a 576 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 1: lot of second waivers who connected with those narratives of 577 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 1: the patriarchy essentially ruining everything, taking away women's power, and 578 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:43,280 Speaker 1: the importance of connecting with a goddess or the goddess, 579 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: and her work is highly influential in the wickest sphere. 580 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,000 Speaker 1: Did I just make up a term? I don't have it? 581 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,319 Speaker 1: That could also be like a candle industry thing, Yes, 582 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 1: although connected they need candles for these ceremonies new side 583 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: business Carolina cottage industry, and her work did inspire a 584 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 1: whole bunch of second waivers who connected with this idea 585 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 1: of the patriarchy ruining everything and the importance of connecting 586 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,760 Speaker 1: with a goddess. And one of the other big names 587 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 1: during this period in terms of feminism and witchcraft is 588 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,799 Speaker 1: the self described radical lesbian feminist Mary Daily, who had 589 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:25,319 Speaker 1: talked about which is in her own nine book guinne Ecology. 590 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 1: There's a slash in there, but in On Mother's Day 591 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:34,279 Speaker 1: nine eight nine, Daily staged The Witches Return, a theatrical 592 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,359 Speaker 1: reversal of the old witch trials where she basically put 593 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,720 Speaker 1: these so called agents of the patriarchy on trial. Uh. Pornographers, 594 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 1: serial killers, earth rapers, academic brain drainers, and the Roman 595 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 1: Catholic hierarchy, just to name a few. Uh. And during 596 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:55,800 Speaker 1: this ceremony, all of these figures were ritually declared guilty, 597 00:38:55,960 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 1: hext and beheaded. And Daily claims that hoddest murder is 598 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 1: a tenant of the patriarchy. And you know, I can't 599 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,400 Speaker 1: really disagree with her, considering the history of where we 600 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 1: get this idea of like a one goddess like archetypal 601 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:14,920 Speaker 1: goddess worship thing from you know, nineteenth century dudes. Um. 602 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:16,840 Speaker 1: But she says that the answer to that is that 603 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,479 Speaker 1: women need to invoke the goddess within. And she did 604 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 1: call witch hunts deliberate woman hunts, So we've heard that before. Yeah, yeah, 605 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,239 Speaker 1: So where does all this lead us, Caroline? I mean, 606 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,560 Speaker 1: we're in the nineties, then we transition more into the 607 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 1: goddess movement, where it seems like it's a return more 608 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:38,880 Speaker 1: to nature and finding you know, your power from within, 609 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:43,960 Speaker 1: less so than beheading academic brain drainers say, I mean 610 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 1: because really the more scholarship on witchcraft in the history 611 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 1: of which is and especially the killing of which is, 612 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 1: the more that that happens, the less evidence of this 613 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,880 Speaker 1: turns up. Yeah, I mean, I think that there is 614 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:06,279 Speaker 1: more evidence, for instance, that there were not these utopian, 615 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,920 Speaker 1: peaceful societies. That's that's not to say that there weren't 616 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:15,200 Speaker 1: societies that were more egalitarian or that that had matrilineality. Um. 617 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,560 Speaker 1: Claud It did not stumble over that word. Um. But 618 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:23,280 Speaker 1: you know, there's really little evidence that people weren't killing 619 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 1: each other. There's more evidence that people were killing each 620 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:31,719 Speaker 1: other than we're living in egalitarian, peaceful utopias. Um. And 621 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:36,719 Speaker 1: the thing about this whole narrative to UH woman as 622 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:41,720 Speaker 1: which it plays into this idea of woman as nurture, 623 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 1: It seems like a lot of people women too, are 624 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,799 Speaker 1: embracing this idea that was put forth by uh kind 625 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:52,239 Speaker 1: of misogynistic nineteenth century men that women are closer to nature, 626 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,160 Speaker 1: they're more natural, they're more peaceful, and so we should 627 00:40:55,160 --> 00:41:00,240 Speaker 1: appreciate their their chastity and their peacefulness and their earth motherlyness. 628 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:03,840 Speaker 1: So do we see, though any based on everything that 629 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,279 Speaker 1: we know all of the things that we've read, do 630 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 1: we see any usefulness for feminist Wicca because a lot 631 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,000 Speaker 1: of what we've been doing over the past half hour 632 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:16,680 Speaker 1: plus has been debunking it. Well. Much like many religions, 633 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,439 Speaker 1: Wicca might have a degree of made up nous, but 634 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,359 Speaker 1: feminist Wicca I can definitely see that it's a way 635 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:27,719 Speaker 1: to experience and exercise power, and to connect with yourself 636 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:31,800 Speaker 1: and with nature, to reject the patriarchy, and to foster 637 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:37,080 Speaker 1: a spiritual life in a religion that's all about women. 638 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,560 Speaker 1: It gives them a place at the table, so to speak. 639 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 1: And Melissa Raphael who wrote Introducing Theology that's theology with 640 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:48,080 Speaker 1: an a to indicate goddess worship discourse on the goddess 641 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:52,600 Speaker 1: sites Naomi Goldenberg who said goddess religion can often appear 642 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:56,400 Speaker 1: as wish craft because it teaches women to use spells 643 00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:00,840 Speaker 1: and rituals to express their hopes, ambitions, and des ires. 644 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,560 Speaker 1: Sometimes the idea of a matriarchy in the past is 645 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,960 Speaker 1: put forward as a wish about history, a desire to 646 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,359 Speaker 1: be realized in the present and future, and so in 647 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: that regard, I think that it's not unlike many other 648 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,440 Speaker 1: religions where you want a sense of belonging and empowerment 649 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,040 Speaker 1: through believing that you have a place in something bigger 650 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,479 Speaker 1: than yourself. And that goes to something that Caroline Ball, 651 00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,680 Speaker 1: who wrote a whole thesis on Wicko, Witchcraft and the 652 00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:31,080 Speaker 1: Goddess Revival, points out is that ultimately it's a lot 653 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:37,280 Speaker 1: more about individuality rather than historical fact, because, as she writes, 654 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:41,560 Speaker 1: it's a religion based upon individual experience, and Wika is 655 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:45,640 Speaker 1: simply a framework to allow these experiences to happen. So 656 00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,520 Speaker 1: it's understandable if we think about the structure of say 657 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,239 Speaker 1: a coven, and that offers you a community, and this 658 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 1: offers you a framework to access perhaps this power and 659 00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:02,319 Speaker 1: quotes that you might not otherwise you'll able to to 660 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,520 Speaker 1: do yeah in other religions for sure. And and I 661 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 1: mean this is why I read OH magazine. Well, I'm 662 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,960 Speaker 1: saying not even like in a religious context, just generally speaking, 663 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,640 Speaker 1: you know, it can allow you to do it as 664 00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:17,879 Speaker 1: opposed to just not having any religion whatsoever. And other 665 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:22,360 Speaker 1: people find this through the practice of yoga, through meditation. 666 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:26,799 Speaker 1: There's many different ways to feel like you're connecting to 667 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 1: a deeper, more peaceful, and more powerful place within yourself. Um, 668 00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:36,400 Speaker 1: that's not an organized official religion or WICCA or anything 669 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,360 Speaker 1: like that. There are many different ways to achieve this 670 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,799 Speaker 1: and this is just one of them. Well, I'm really 671 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,319 Speaker 1: curious to hear from listeners on this because I have 672 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:48,759 Speaker 1: a feeling there's some wiccans listening who might have some 673 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,120 Speaker 1: very different perspectives in what we've been sharing, and we're 674 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 1: absolutely open to that. Because this is a half hour podcast, 675 00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,160 Speaker 1: it's really hard to condense an entire belief system down 676 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:02,920 Speaker 1: into like forty five minutes. So listeners, we want to 677 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,719 Speaker 1: hear from you. Mom savat House of Works dot com 678 00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,040 Speaker 1: is our email address. You can also tweet us at 679 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,319 Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, and we've got 680 00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,120 Speaker 1: a couple of messages to share with you right now. 681 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:22,960 Speaker 1: I have one here from Megan about our Women and 682 00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,680 Speaker 1: Weightlifters episode. She says, Hello, ladies, I listened to your 683 00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,520 Speaker 1: podcast today regarding ladies and lifting and had to write 684 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:33,640 Speaker 1: in I'm an American College of Sports Medicine exercise physiologist 685 00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:36,080 Speaker 1: and I'm a graduate student in a muscle research lab, 686 00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,759 Speaker 1: so this podcast was right up my alley. I thought 687 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 1: you may find one of my teaching stories rather interesting. 688 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,080 Speaker 1: Last year, as part of my assistant ship, I taught 689 00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,400 Speaker 1: a college weightlifting class. I'm about five ft two and 690 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:51,000 Speaker 1: about a hundred and fifteen pounds. People, especially the gents, 691 00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:53,760 Speaker 1: were shocked to see that I was their weightlifting teacher, 692 00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:58,000 Speaker 1: ascribing to cultural stereotypes that only big, burly dudes know 693 00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:01,479 Speaker 1: anything about weightlifting. One d while letting my class free lift, 694 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,280 Speaker 1: an older gentleman approached me and started talking about my class. 695 00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:06,920 Speaker 1: He proceeded to tell me what and how I should 696 00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,680 Speaker 1: be teaching. What's even more annoying is that everything he 697 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,400 Speaker 1: was saying was either flat out wrong or outdated. I 698 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:14,560 Speaker 1: read a lot of research, and I'm pretty well versed 699 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,799 Speaker 1: on resistance exercise, but this guy was unconvinced. Anytime I 700 00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:21,600 Speaker 1: told him research didn't support a thing he said so annoying. Luckily, 701 00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,280 Speaker 1: going through some of my course evaluations, many of the students, 702 00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:27,520 Speaker 1: including the gents, learned a lot from the class, and bonus, 703 00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:30,279 Speaker 1: my ladies were less intimidated by the class since I 704 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,759 Speaker 1: wasn't a super bulky man bro glad to spread some 705 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,000 Speaker 1: of the good weightlifting vibes into the world. Also, quick 706 00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:39,160 Speaker 1: p s a since I'm an exercise nerd and as 707 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,720 Speaker 1: super passionate about evidence based practices. If you are looking 708 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,400 Speaker 1: for some help with starting a resistance training regime, I 709 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:49,880 Speaker 1: highly suggest very critically evaluating the credentials of any fitness expert. 710 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,879 Speaker 1: You may find there are no or very few state 711 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:57,000 Speaker 1: laws regarding who can prescribe exercise. There's some personal training 712 00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,239 Speaker 1: certification exams that are only a twenty minute quiz, so 713 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,400 Speaker 1: you have to be careful with whom you're looking at. 714 00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,400 Speaker 1: I highly suggest American College of Sports Medicine or National 715 00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:10,799 Speaker 1: Strength and Condition Association certified individuals. Both of those organizations 716 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:13,239 Speaker 1: are leaders in the field and use firsthand research to 717 00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:17,560 Speaker 1: make exercise recommendations. Further, the certifying exams are pretty difficult, 718 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,400 Speaker 1: and for some you need an undergrad degree in exercise science. 719 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,480 Speaker 1: Other certifying examps are not nearly as intense, and the 720 00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,480 Speaker 1: personal trainers are not nearly as knowledgeable. Not trying to 721 00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:28,680 Speaker 1: sell these organizations, but if you're going to be paying 722 00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:30,560 Speaker 1: someone for a service, I think they should be well 723 00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,600 Speaker 1: qualified to provide that service. Anyway. Love the podcast and 724 00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,960 Speaker 1: super love this episode. You ladies rock and so do you. Megan, 725 00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:40,799 Speaker 1: Thank you, and I've gotta let her hear from Rhea 726 00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:45,560 Speaker 1: about our rowdy Ronda Rousey episode, and she writes, as 727 00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:48,520 Speaker 1: a UFC fan who's been watching for a few years now, 728 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:51,080 Speaker 1: I feel like this episode was quite biased off the bat. 729 00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:53,520 Speaker 1: I understand that a contact sport like m m A 730 00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:55,520 Speaker 1: isn't everyone's cup of tea, but a lot of your 731 00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:59,600 Speaker 1: criticisms of Rousey felt out of context, gendered, and removed 732 00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:03,240 Speaker 1: from a sport. Ding Ding Let's go. When you discussed 733 00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:06,120 Speaker 1: the trash talking and comments made about Misha take you 734 00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,480 Speaker 1: forgot to mention how Rousey's attitude is not unique to her, 735 00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,400 Speaker 1: but part of the game. When top fighters like Connor 736 00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,720 Speaker 1: McGregor smack talk opponents in a similar or worse nature, 737 00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:18,600 Speaker 1: it just makes him more charismatic and confident, with no 738 00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:22,160 Speaker 1: one calling him a catty miss and dress even rousies 739 00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:26,160 Speaker 1: do nothing. Bitch's blog within retaliation to Beth Korea's very 740 00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:29,000 Speaker 1: personal attack statements during the lead up to their fight 741 00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:32,200 Speaker 1: to focus on Dana White wanting Rowsey because of her 742 00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:35,880 Speaker 1: looks and not just skill, which is partially true, however, 743 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:39,080 Speaker 1: didn't highlight the entire UFC works this way and doesn't 744 00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,520 Speaker 1: treat the mail fighters any different, with White having recently 745 00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:46,160 Speaker 1: told one of his fighters to get more popular. This 746 00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:49,440 Speaker 1: sport is a modern mix of skills social media, self promotion, 747 00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:52,560 Speaker 1: and entertainment, and Rousey is a smart businesswoman who creates 748 00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:55,840 Speaker 1: the same hype and fan base as other major fighters 749 00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:59,840 Speaker 1: in order to get the championship title fights. It seemed 750 00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:02,920 Speaker 1: as though your discussion used Rowsy's gender as a reason 751 00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:05,920 Speaker 1: for her to be less than her male fighter counterparts. 752 00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:09,319 Speaker 1: Above all, she's a fighter, a point that wasn't stressed enough. 753 00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:11,680 Speaker 1: She needs to make as much money in her physical 754 00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:15,279 Speaker 1: crime before acquiring any serious injuries, beat her opponents as 755 00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,600 Speaker 1: fast as possible, and make the most of this time 756 00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:20,920 Speaker 1: in her career. Yes, her comments on potential steroid it 757 00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:24,520 Speaker 1: or transgender opponents were insensitive, but the core of her 758 00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:27,480 Speaker 1: words was that quote, this person is going to physically 759 00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:30,160 Speaker 1: attack me, So muscle mass power or a good chin 760 00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:35,480 Speaker 1: can be as seriously unfair advantage. So thank you for 761 00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:42,080 Speaker 1: those insights, Rhea. We appreciate your more expert look at 762 00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:46,719 Speaker 1: Rowsy gender and UFC. So with that, if you have 763 00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:49,000 Speaker 1: expert views to share with us as well, or just 764 00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:51,120 Speaker 1: you know, funny links to send us, Mom, Steve ad 765 00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:53,560 Speaker 1: alsap works dot com is where you can email us 766 00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:55,839 Speaker 1: and for links all of our social media as well 767 00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:58,960 Speaker 1: as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including this 768 00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,800 Speaker 1: one with links force versus so you can see images 769 00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:05,560 Speaker 1: of those feminist witches zapping all over town. Head on 770 00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:13,719 Speaker 1: over to stuff mom Never Told You dot com for 771 00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:16,400 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Isn't how 772 00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:24,759 Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com