Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the
Speaker 1: Thing from my Heart Radio. We're more than a year
Speaker 1: into this pandemic. People are getting vaccinated now and life
Speaker 1: is starting to return slowly to normal. Still, many of
Speaker 1: us are coming to terms with the ways COVID nineteen
Speaker 1: changed our lives. My guests today have had different experiences
Speaker 1: during the pandemic, both in their personal lives and especially
Speaker 1: in their work. Jane Baldwin Sasso is a physical therapist
Speaker 1: in upstate New York who works with children and the elderly.
Speaker 1: She's also my sister. David Gould works in New York
Speaker 1: City and plays clarinet with some of the world's most
Speaker 1: prestigious ensembles. But first, I'm speaking with Dr Odette Hall,
Speaker 1: the Suffolk County Medical Examiner here on Long Island. Last spring,
Speaker 1: when the pandemic started with its sudden death and makeshift morgues,
Speaker 1: I wondered how medical examiners like Dr Hall grappled with
Speaker 1: their work. She started our conversation by explaining what a
Speaker 1: medical examiner does. So we're looking for people who were
Speaker 1: not under doctor's care, died unnaturally, died with no known
Speaker 1: medical conditions. Inherent in the phrase medical examiner is the
Speaker 1: word examined. You're there to examine and find out how
Speaker 1: they died, correct, and not everyone gets an examination, so
Speaker 1: most people automatically think autopsy. So when we think of examination,
Speaker 1: we're saying the broadheading of sort of forensic examination that
Speaker 1: can be an external exam. So if we have enough
Speaker 1: information or family objects, there are situations where we will
Speaker 1: sort of say we cannot honor your objection, and it
Speaker 1: will take a court order to prevent us from doing
Speaker 1: the autopsy, because we have the right to perform and
Speaker 1: autopsy at our discretion. So people can actually object to
Speaker 1: an autopsy being performed on religious grounds absolutely and have
Speaker 1: to defer to them. What if it's part of a
Speaker 1: criminal investigation, So in cases of threats to public health
Speaker 1: or concern or suspicion of a homicide, that is where
Speaker 1: we will not honor the objection without a court order
Speaker 1: or judges order to say no, you cannot perform this autopsy.
Speaker 1: So in those situations we will tell the family we
Speaker 1: hear your objection, but this is a threat to public
Speaker 1: health or concern or suspicion of a homicide, so we
Speaker 1: will take it to court. And in that situation, we
Speaker 1: will contact the county attorney. So we have a case
Speaker 1: that needs to go to court to override an objection,
Speaker 1: and then they'll take it from there, and then it
Speaker 1: goes lawyer to lawyer, and ultimately, if the judge says
Speaker 1: you cannot perform this autopsy, then our hands are tied. Now.
Speaker 1: I don't want to speak with any kind of casualness
Speaker 1: about the subject of death this horrible time in the
Speaker 1: lives of their families and friends and loved ones. But
Speaker 1: what would you say in terms of the cases you handle,
Speaker 1: what's the top three? Actually, the vast majority of our
Speaker 1: cases are people who just have undiagnosed natural conditions. Then
Speaker 1: we get into accidents, and then from there we'll get
Speaker 1: into suicide. And let me sort of put the caveat
Speaker 1: on accident that our drug overdoses are classified as accidents
Speaker 1: as well. When we get into certifying death, you're talking
Speaker 1: about cause of death and you're talking about manner of death.
Speaker 1: So by training, the cause of death is the physiologic
Speaker 1: derangements that happened that causes a person's life to cease.
Speaker 1: That's the formal definition, that's what's drilled into you as
Speaker 1: a fellow. So you die of a heart attack, but
Speaker 1: the heart attack was caused by a bucket of cocaine.
Speaker 1: The manner of death would be accident because you're under
Speaker 1: the influence of cocaine, which is known to be a
Speaker 1: cardiovascular irritant. So we can find a completely blocked artery.
Speaker 1: But if you're positive for cocaine, then cocaine becomes contributory
Speaker 1: and your manner of death becomes an accident because that
Speaker 1: contributed to the cardiovascular irritation. Is it Do levels of
Speaker 1: drugs tell you when it's a suicide, Well, it does,
Speaker 1: But suicide is the hardest manner for a medical examiner
Speaker 1: to prove. The burden of proof to call something a
Speaker 1: suicide is on us just because a person has a
Speaker 1: high level of drugs and the family says there is
Speaker 1: no suici out of ideation history, there's no suicide attempt history,
Speaker 1: there's no note this came out of the blue. But
Speaker 1: this person has this sky high level of drugs. We
Speaker 1: have the option of calling that undetermined if we feel
Speaker 1: there's no reason why this level should exist in this
Speaker 1: person except for the fact that you took a whole
Speaker 1: violet pills and that can only be attentional, but if
Speaker 1: we do not have firm ground to stand on, we
Speaker 1: have to pull back from suicide. Speaking of that, I mean,
Speaker 1: we're all human beings. Do some medical examiners tend out
Speaker 1: of a kind of grace towards the family to not
Speaker 1: make the call of a suicide unless you're a thousand
Speaker 1: percent sure it was a suicide. That's the vast majority
Speaker 1: of the reason why we don't make that call because
Speaker 1: it is one of the most delicate manners of death.
Speaker 1: To call it is very, very traumatic to the family.
Speaker 1: So if you are not a hundred percent sure that
Speaker 1: that is what the person did, and especially when we
Speaker 1: get into our older population that may have issues with dementia,
Speaker 1: it could be an issue of I'm supposed to take
Speaker 1: two pills, but did I take my two pills already? Well,
Speaker 1: let me take two more, And then an hour later
Speaker 1: they forgot that they stop at the two pills, so
Speaker 1: they took two more. So by the end of the
Speaker 1: day they've got the equivalent of ten pills in their
Speaker 1: stomach and blood levels that are through the roof. But
Speaker 1: I can't call that person a suicide, So you have
Speaker 1: to kind of default to undetermined where are you from
Speaker 1: originally Jamaica? Queen's you're born in Jamaica born? And where
Speaker 1: did you train for this job? I got my undergraduate
Speaker 1: degree from Spellman College in Atlanta, where I majored in biology.
Speaker 1: PREMT where'd you go to medical school? So I went
Speaker 1: to Sunny Downstate in Brooklyn. And then when you left,
Speaker 1: did you know this is what you wanted to do?
Speaker 1: I went into medical school wanting to be a O.
Speaker 1: B g y N believing in women's care for women.
Speaker 1: But then ultimately you go through all kinds of clinical
Speaker 1: rotations in medical school, and I did not enjoy O.
Speaker 1: B G y N rotation, did not oh not at all. Ultimately,
Speaker 1: I just found that I did not enjoy, you know,
Speaker 1: chasing lab values, chasing X rays. I enjoyed talking to patients,
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I love talking to patients. They tell
Speaker 1: you their whole life stories, and people's life stories are fascinating.
Speaker 1: But I didn't enjoy the sort of cover your hignee
Speaker 1: approach to medicine. But interesting how you went from the
Speaker 1: beginning of life to the end of life. Yes, when
Speaker 1: did you make that decision to get into the work
Speaker 1: you're doing now? I was very very fortunate to have
Speaker 1: attendings who watched me throughout my rotations and they said,
Speaker 1: you know, your interests seemed to peak when you're touching
Speaker 1: and you're seeing something like so you're either a surgeon
Speaker 1: or a pathologist. And I said, I am not a surgeon.
Speaker 1: You know, I'll tell a funny story on Actually my
Speaker 1: O B G Y N rotation. We were doing an
Speaker 1: eck topic pregnancy surgery and they have to remove the
Speaker 1: whole fallopian too, so they put it in the cup.
Speaker 1: They put it off to the side and they say
Speaker 1: it's going to pathology. I said, well, you know, can
Speaker 1: I go see it? I want to see what a
Speaker 1: fellopian tube looks like. And they're like okay. So I
Speaker 1: go upstairs to the lab and in the lab accessioning
Speaker 1: area there are just buckets of specimens that have come
Speaker 1: up from the O R. So I find out where
Speaker 1: my specimen went and I go over and I'm like
Speaker 1: I opened the jar and everyone in the lab was
Speaker 1: staring at me, and I'm just like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: am I doing something wrong. They're like, what does it
Speaker 1: look like? I was like, you know, sit here all
Speaker 1: day with all these specimens and you know, look at
Speaker 1: them like, oh my god. I couldn't believe it, and
Speaker 1: it was kind of like, yeah, you're a pathologist. So
Speaker 1: I started taking pathology electives and sort of shadowing pathology
Speaker 1: residents and talking to pathology attendings and finding out what
Speaker 1: it is that they do and grossing specimens and looking
Speaker 1: at things underneath the microscope, and they call you the
Speaker 1: doctor's doctor, because essentially you're you're almost a consultant to doctors.
Speaker 1: Pathology literally means study of disease and injury and the
Speaker 1: human body, and forensic pathology is pathology that has medical
Speaker 1: legal implications to it. Your focus is unnatural deaths, so
Speaker 1: it's sort of a little branch off of pathology. So
Speaker 1: to become a forensic pathologist, you have to first do
Speaker 1: pathology training. So I did my pathology training at the
Speaker 1: University of California, Irvine, and every pathology resident has to
Speaker 1: do a rotation in forensics. So I go to the
Speaker 1: Orange County Medical Examiner's office and I had a wonderful
Speaker 1: attending who just kept on saying that you want to
Speaker 1: be a forensic pathologist. I was like, no, I don't
Speaker 1: want to testify in court. I don't want to No,
Speaker 1: no, no no manage, and he just kept on sort of
Speaker 1: asking me, and by the end of the rotation, it's
Speaker 1: kind of like, oh, can I sit on that case?
Speaker 1: Can I do that case? He was just like yeah, sure,
Speaker 1: you don't want to be your friends with all just
Speaker 1: was like, okay, maybe, but interesting how in the medical
Speaker 1: examiner's office or in something related there's a quas illegal function. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: as you said, I don't want to testify in court,
Speaker 1: and a lot of people who do what you do
Speaker 1: that's part of the job. And I think it's just
Speaker 1: because I'm a relatively bashful person and I don't like
Speaker 1: attention on me in that manner. But you get on
Speaker 1: there and you just get into a zone and you
Speaker 1: realize they're asking you questions about what you did, and
Speaker 1: if you're a hundred percent confident in what you did,
Speaker 1: then speaking on it doesn't become a problem. And also
Speaker 1: they teach you to focus on the jury. You're teaching
Speaker 1: the jury, trying to get them to understand what it
Speaker 1: is that happened in this case, and when you put
Speaker 1: it in that context, it becomes a more relaxing experience
Speaker 1: because it's kind of like I can talk about what
Speaker 1: I do I enjoy what I do, so telling you
Speaker 1: what I do as lay people that felt better to me.
Speaker 1: But also you're a profound part of the criminal justice
Speaker 1: system and bringing justice and finding out what really happened
Speaker 1: to somebody. Correct. Correct, But it's very, very, very important
Speaker 1: to maintain objectivity. I speak to findings point nine times
Speaker 1: out of a hundred. You're being called by the d
Speaker 1: a's office. However, you're a neutral witness. I am just
Speaker 1: speaking to what the body told me and what conclusion
Speaker 1: I came to based on what the body told me,
Speaker 1: and that is it. And when I'm meeting with d as,
Speaker 1: I often tell them that I've got to give this information.
Speaker 1: I will not withhold anything, I will not truncate anything.
Speaker 1: I have to speak to the facts of the case.
Speaker 1: And they understand that. But sometimes it helps the defense
Speaker 1: and not the prosecution. Will explain to people the difference
Speaker 1: between a medical examiner and a corner. It's very sensitive
Speaker 1: then in the intramural juke. Other than the greatness of
Speaker 1: one versus the kind of greatness of the other, it
Speaker 1: is one of those things where it is one of
Speaker 1: this medical examiner corner, you know who's greater. So corners
Speaker 1: are elected and coroners do not have to be physicians,
Speaker 1: and they don't have to be medical examiners, so they're
Speaker 1: more like police. Correct. They could be police, they could
Speaker 1: be politicians, and their function is typically what they do
Speaker 1: issue cause and manner of death, but they issue it
Speaker 1: based on somebody else's findings. So now tradition that was
Speaker 1: historic coroner's office, you're really not going to find coroner's
Speaker 1: office that aren't staffed and run by medical examiners. They're
Speaker 1: going to perform the autopsies, they may turn over the findings,
Speaker 1: and they may come to the conclusion of the cause
Speaker 1: and matter of death, but sometimes it is under the
Speaker 1: discretion of the coroner's office to sort of say whether
Speaker 1: or not they're going to bless that cause and manner
Speaker 1: of death. Now, you started in the medical examiner's office
Speaker 1: win how long ago? August two thousand and nine. What
Speaker 1: would you say has been the significant change you've seen
Speaker 1: in the work you've done in the last twelve years.
Speaker 1: Has the office changed much in its tasks? No, In
Speaker 1: terms of the basics and performing forensic examinations, that doesn't
Speaker 1: change much. Some of the technology may change, but the
Speaker 1: fundamental of doing the exam doesn't change. What are some
Speaker 1: of the changes you've seen in terms of the work
Speaker 1: of your office during the COVID Beyond Death's bike COVID So,
Speaker 1: and initially it was just learning to adjust to being
Speaker 1: in the midst of a pandemic where they were going
Speaker 1: to be an increasing number of deaths. So, by definition,
Speaker 1: COVID is under the jurisdiction of the Medical Examiner's office
Speaker 1: because it's a threat to public health. However, largely it's
Speaker 1: death from natural causes. Is death from a natural event,
Speaker 1: and the vast majority of them actually aren't coming to
Speaker 1: the Medical Examiner's office. They will be in hospitals. However,
Speaker 1: all things death, the medical examiner sort of becomes a
Speaker 1: portal to what do we do with the increasing number
Speaker 1: of deaths? What do we do with storage of increasing
Speaker 1: numbers of people dying? What do we do with these
Speaker 1: death certificates? How do we are the death certificates? So,
Speaker 1: in terms of body storage, what we didn't realize because
Speaker 1: of COVID, everyone's reducing staff that applies to cemeteries, crematoriums.
Speaker 1: I wonder if we'll come out of the COVID with
Speaker 1: so many things changed, been forced to confront these changes,
Speaker 1: and we wonder how those changes will be permanent, in
Speaker 1: which the handling of these death arrangements will change permanently,
Speaker 1: which people will sit there and go it almost doesn't
Speaker 1: matter what we do with the body. But but but let
Speaker 1: me ask you another question, which is you're you live
Speaker 1: in Suffolk, you live in the suburbs, and when you're
Speaker 1: out in Suffolk County, which has less of what and
Speaker 1: more of what crime was. It's interesting because I trained
Speaker 1: in the city, the New York City Office of the
Speaker 1: Chief Medical Examiner, so I spent two years their training
Speaker 1: in forensics. So what's different is the type of like
Speaker 1: injuries you see. And when I trained in two thousand
Speaker 1: seven to two thousand and nine, the drug epidemic was
Speaker 1: just starting to shift an increase, like in terms of
Speaker 1: subway suicides, people jumping in front of trains in the subways.
Speaker 1: There are no subways in Suffolk County. So people dropped
Speaker 1: in front of the Long Island Railroad. How many of
Speaker 1: them marine Suffolk County every year? Because it dozens or
Speaker 1: just a handful, It's handful to dozens, because unfortunately, you
Speaker 1: do get circumstances where you can tell that it was
Speaker 1: very intentional that they will on the tracks. What are
Speaker 1: the circumstances to tell you that. Unfortunately, it's the conductors.
Speaker 1: The eyewitness someone jumps in front of the direct correct or,
Speaker 1: they watch the train come at them, and it is
Speaker 1: such a traumatic event to the conductor, who cannot stop
Speaker 1: that train even if they wanted to. But clearly that
Speaker 1: person is intent. And again, what brings the person to
Speaker 1: that point, I don't know. I can just only honor
Speaker 1: whatever it is that they're feeling that brought them to
Speaker 1: that point. But in terms of life going on, thinking
Speaker 1: about the conductor, some of them are truly truly devastated
Speaker 1: and impacted by events like that, and it happens too often.
Speaker 1: So the girl from the city who's out here, what's
Speaker 1: unique for you with a less diverse community, shall we say?
Speaker 1: It's interesting that you say that, because it was a
Speaker 1: unique opportunity for me in terms of a woman of
Speaker 1: color growing up in the city where again it is
Speaker 1: very diverse, and I did grow up in it predominantly
Speaker 1: black community. To come out to Suffolk County and now
Speaker 1: work in a predominantly white community and think that all
Speaker 1: these things are going to be different, But it's actually
Speaker 1: in essence, not we create such differences amongst ourselves and
Speaker 1: there really aren't. So, you know, at the heart of it,
Speaker 1: we want to love our families. At the heart of it,
Speaker 1: we want to socialize and interact. At the heart of it,
Speaker 1: we want to be able to play our bills. We
Speaker 1: want to be stable, We want to be able to
Speaker 1: sort of give back to the next generation. So in
Speaker 1: Suffolk Counties, you almost sort of get on the defense
Speaker 1: a little bit as a black woman coming out into
Speaker 1: the society, you know, sort of double minority if you
Speaker 1: will that it's going to be a struggle. It's gonna
Speaker 1: be so hard. And when you just meet people on
Speaker 1: the level of I want the same things that you do,
Speaker 1: we're equal in that regard. What you just would you
Speaker 1: like to see within the system you work in that
Speaker 1: would help you do your job better and beyond just
Speaker 1: more money and more staff, you know, I mean that's
Speaker 1: number four. What's number five? You know in terms of
Speaker 1: you know, diversity and race and issues like that. I
Speaker 1: haven't felt that impact. You're doing a job and you're
Speaker 1: out to get an answer. It just says what it is,
Speaker 1: who shot this person? Not who shot this black person?
Speaker 1: Who strangled. This person who's strangled this white person. It's
Speaker 1: who did it, why, and let's get them. So I'm
Speaker 1: protected in that I'm not interacting with the person on
Speaker 1: the street corner. I'm just okay, this person is dead.
Speaker 1: Death is the great equalizer. I'm in somewhat of a
Speaker 1: protected bubble in that I am only charged with sort
Speaker 1: of this person's cause and manner of death. So in
Speaker 1: that regard, your medical examiner isn't that much involved in
Speaker 1: your community. It's insulated from politics. But absolutely, Now, what
Speaker 1: are the social services you think would benefit being funded more,
Speaker 1: having whatever the resources they need to be more effective.
Speaker 1: They would cut deaths that arrive at your doorstep. Drug treatment.
Speaker 1: Drug treatment would most certainly sort of cut back on overdoses.
Speaker 1: But mental health services. So much of drug overdoses happen
Speaker 1: in people with mental health issues, and mental health is
Speaker 1: just we don't want to talk about that. But mental
Speaker 1: health is real. Mental health services is paramount to our community,
Speaker 1: and it even goes into to some degree obesity. Some
Speaker 1: of your overeating is a mental health issue, some of
Speaker 1: your under eating is mental health issue. So really, at
Speaker 1: the top of what could be addressed, I think first
Speaker 1: and foremost mental health, and then after that things that
Speaker 1: keep people stable. With access to living in safe environment,
Speaker 1: living right on top of expressways, you're gonna have more
Speaker 1: lung disease. Not having access to healthy food, you're gonna
Speaker 1: have a lot more people eating fast foods and getting
Speaker 1: heart disease. So people who you know, they don't have
Speaker 1: anything walkable in their communities. Creating more parks and more
Speaker 1: tracks where people can exercise and get outdoors, more knowing
Speaker 1: what you know and seeing what you see. And that
Speaker 1: beautiful thing you just said about mental health because of
Speaker 1: what I believe now is that if we all get honest,
Speaker 1: we've all been brushed by that a little bit during
Speaker 1: What are you doing to take care of yourself? During
Speaker 1: the COVID? What are you doing? I joke with my
Speaker 1: friends my life was an exercise and social distancing, long
Speaker 1: before we had the social distance. I'm in home body.
Speaker 1: My mother is the if the sun is out, she's
Speaker 1: got to be moving. She's got to leave the house
Speaker 1: at least once. And my father and I we come
Speaker 1: home on Friday, we put on a robe and we're
Speaker 1: not back out the house until Monday. Are you just
Speaker 1: a happy person in general? Depends on who you ask,
Speaker 1: because you seem like one I try to be with
Speaker 1: this job and with sort of death in general, people
Speaker 1: who work in this industy stree have to sort of
Speaker 1: create a barrier. You have to protect yourself. Not that
Speaker 1: you take death lightly, but there's got to be a barrier.
Speaker 1: You absolutely respect the person who was on your table.
Speaker 1: There's someone's mother, brother, sister, cousin, loved one. But you
Speaker 1: cannot throw yourself into who this person was because you
Speaker 1: will be emotionally crippled. Um. So there's that wall that
Speaker 1: I create. Life is to be enjoyed, absolutely, absolutely, Doctor Hall.
Speaker 1: You are such a light. God, what a wonderful light
Speaker 1: you have to you. I am so grateful to you,
Speaker 1: and I hope that when I die, my body gets
Speaker 1: sent to your office. Dr o Debt Hall is the
Speaker 1: Suffolk County Medical Examiner on Long Island. If you've been
Speaker 1: wondering about the impact on mental health during the pandemic,
Speaker 1: your own or others, be sure to check out my
Speaker 1: conversation with psychiatrist Dr Julie Holland. She says the ambiguity
Speaker 1: about when the pandemic will end has been a challenge
Speaker 1: from the beginning. In the beginning, everybody was like, if
Speaker 1: I just knew when this would end, I would be okay,
Speaker 1: you know, if I knew it was just for the summer,
Speaker 1: or you know, I mean when it started, it was
Speaker 1: like when if I know it was just April, right,
Speaker 1: But that was a big deal. For the first few
Speaker 1: months with my patients, was just this idea that they
Speaker 1: needed to be able to encapsulate it. You know, if
Speaker 1: it could be compartmentalized, then they could deal with it.
Speaker 1: Here more of my conversation with psychiatrist Dr Julie Holland
Speaker 1: that Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, I
Speaker 1: talked with my sister Jane Baldwin Sasso about how she
Speaker 1: moved her physical therapy practice to Zoom. I'm Alec Baldwin,
Speaker 1: and you were listening to Here's the thing. You know
Speaker 1: how there are some people in life who just make
Speaker 1: everything better. My physical therapist is like that. Her treatments
Speaker 1: make all the difference, or they did before the pandemic.
Speaker 1: My sister Jane is a physical therapist and not mine,
Speaker 1: of course. She works in upstate New York with children
Speaker 1: and the elderly. For her was a very chaotic year.
Speaker 1: So when COVID first came back in March. We were
Speaker 1: very confused. We didn't really know what was happening. When
Speaker 1: I left my school job, we got an announcement on
Speaker 1: the on the p A said check your email immediately something.
Speaker 1: So we we we we knew things were happening. We
Speaker 1: just had no idea. And then we saw an email.
Speaker 1: It said today's our last day of school. We have
Speaker 1: no other information. So I just packed up things for
Speaker 1: you know, the next few days, thinking well, we're a
Speaker 1: few days off. This is weird, and then um, it
Speaker 1: came to be that that It just extended on and on,
Speaker 1: and then Governor of Homo stated in May that we're
Speaker 1: done for the school years. So we were doing a
Speaker 1: lot of platforms like Zoom, so if you can imagine zoom.
Speaker 1: Physical therapy with children is just very hard because they
Speaker 1: don't understand why I'm not with them, why we're not
Speaker 1: in school. My name is Mrs S to the kids,
Speaker 1: and they are Mrs S. Why can't we go to
Speaker 1: your therapy room and do what we always did? And
Speaker 1: so you have to help to calm their concerns initially,
Speaker 1: and then we have to think about really formatting things
Speaker 1: for a computer screen is compared to they come to
Speaker 1: my room and I have an obstacle course set up,
Speaker 1: or I have mat on the floor and we're going
Speaker 1: to do stretching. Now we're on a zoom call, and
Speaker 1: so it's just you have to format everything you do differently.
Speaker 1: It's sad. It's sad for the kids, it's sad for
Speaker 1: the teachers and the therapists, and it's challenging. But you know,
Speaker 1: we keep rising, rising to the occasion every day to
Speaker 1: try to make it fun. We we changed the way
Speaker 1: we do things just to engage the kids on the screen.
Speaker 1: So I wanted to say one thing too that that,
Speaker 1: you know, there was a little bit of a silver
Speaker 1: lining in that the parents who never see what I
Speaker 1: do ever because I'm in school with their children they
Speaker 1: don't see. They really got to see firsthand, grandparents and
Speaker 1: parents what we do and they really were like, how
Speaker 1: do you do this? You know, I have my kid
Speaker 1: home now with me and I don't know how you
Speaker 1: do it. So some of that was, you know, a
Speaker 1: little bit insightful for the parents. And then with my
Speaker 1: other job all summer, I started full time at the
Speaker 1: rehab job when school ended in June and We were
Speaker 1: in the very thick of COVID at that time, and
Speaker 1: as you know, I worked in a in a nursing home.
Speaker 1: They were just inundated with COVID. It was overwhelmingly stressful
Speaker 1: and sad, and what we had to do was massive
Speaker 1: amounts of ppe. You know, just an N ninety five
Speaker 1: covered with another mask, covered with a face shield has
Speaker 1: been got COVID. Yes, he's so careful, so careful before COVID.
Speaker 1: He's very kind of a German folk guy. But he's
Speaker 1: always been with the kids when they were a little
Speaker 1: wiped this and wiped that and just like that. It
Speaker 1: was sort of ironic. But um, the only places he
Speaker 1: really ever went to consistently was our gym, really regularly.
Speaker 1: What were his symptoms and have that all play out
Speaker 1: with him? How was it? What was his COVID experience?
Speaker 1: He really um had what he thought was kind of
Speaker 1: a tough bout with allergies. So he called our doctor
Speaker 1: and said, hey, my, can I get something stronger than
Speaker 1: over the counter? But um, the doctor said, well we
Speaker 1: should get you tested. So he went to get tested
Speaker 1: and he really was like, come on, just give me
Speaker 1: the prescription for the allergy meds. But it turned out positive.
Speaker 1: And then the boys and I got phone calls from
Speaker 1: New York State Department of Health. And it was pretty
Speaker 1: quick because pretty shortly after his results were in, within
Speaker 1: two hours, we all got phone calls to be home immediately.
Speaker 1: Whatever you're doing, stop what you're doing. We're like, really,
Speaker 1: And they were pretty strict about it. With your work
Speaker 1: with hospitals and doctors and the and your interaction with
Speaker 1: the medical profession, is it assumed that hospitals are unsafe
Speaker 1: places to a degree that we should avoid hospitals as
Speaker 1: much as possible, you know, something. To be honest with you,
Speaker 1: hospital admissions are so down when COVID started ramping up
Speaker 1: because people who wouldn't think twice at all, I'm going
Speaker 1: to the urgent care, I'm going to the er because
Speaker 1: my I have a toenail, a hangnail, whatever. Now they're
Speaker 1: like the last place I want to be as the hospital.
Speaker 1: You know, it's very different than what it was. We
Speaker 1: are rehab jim, which I used to joke and say,
Speaker 1: it's the happiest place on earth. It's restoration, it's music,
Speaker 1: it's happiness. People come in with a grumpy face and
Speaker 1: they leave smiling, like oh, you know, that was a
Speaker 1: great workout, and they don't want to get up and
Speaker 1: try to walk, but we walk them in the parallel
Speaker 1: bars and they feel better, they feel accomplished. That's been
Speaker 1: shut down since March seventeen. Our gym has been shut down.
Speaker 1: We do all bedside treatments in their rooms because residents
Speaker 1: in the in the nursing homes are not allowed to
Speaker 1: leave their rooms. It's called COVID isolation, and it's just
Speaker 1: very that in and of itself for someone who's not
Speaker 1: sick at all, is something that is detrimental. It's isolating,
Speaker 1: it's very depressing. I go in a room now to
Speaker 1: treat a patient and their roommate is like, hey, can
Speaker 1: I do that with you too, just because they're lonely
Speaker 1: and want to do I've had more roommates asked me,
Speaker 1: you know what do you do and open the curtain?
Speaker 1: Can I do it too? I'm like no, because I
Speaker 1: only have a doctor's order for this person. So it's
Speaker 1: just hard. You mentioned how school aged children, who under
Speaker 1: ordinary circumstances wouldn't be able to view the work you do.
Speaker 1: That a silver lining was for them to be exposed
Speaker 1: to exactly what's going on when their their kids are
Speaker 1: in your care and stuff with it under your direction,
Speaker 1: whether any other silver linings are the things that have happened,
Speaker 1: not just work related, which is something that's happened during
Speaker 1: the COVID that you said yourself, I'm gonna keep that.
Speaker 1: We're gonna hold on to that for me, honestly, I
Speaker 1: have grown children. My oldest is twenty three. My younger
Speaker 1: just turned one, and we had an empty nest for
Speaker 1: literally two months, and we we geared up for empty nest.
Speaker 1: I was anxious about it and sick about it. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm a mother and I'm so worried. And we have
Speaker 1: the empty nest and we're loving it. We're golfing and
Speaker 1: having a great time. And then COVID came and back
Speaker 1: to the house came both of the kids, and you know,
Speaker 1: they're grown, and it's it's strange to have these four
Speaker 1: adults in the house that we have card nights and um,
Speaker 1: you know, dinner. Another friend of mine texting me, said, Jane,
Speaker 1: you're never going to have this time again, the four
Speaker 1: of you, So to have us under the roof, it's
Speaker 1: just you know, nice, and I know it's going to
Speaker 1: come to an end. But with COVID, like you said,
Speaker 1: we're we're home a lot more. One of the silver
Speaker 1: linings of the COVID from me, especially at my age,
Speaker 1: is to realize how to take better care of myself.
Speaker 1: And I will imagine that when this is over and
Speaker 1: people can re emerge and get back into society, however
Speaker 1: change they may be, you're gonna have a line going
Speaker 1: down the block of people who are gonna need a
Speaker 1: lot of body work. A lot of people said that
Speaker 1: same thing is like I've had it. My body hurts everywhere,
Speaker 1: because who do they come to if their body hurts
Speaker 1: at the school? The teachers, my room, Jane, my neck,
Speaker 1: my back. They've had a lot of teachers come to
Speaker 1: me with you know, at a higher rate than ever before.
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of that too is the
Speaker 1: stress levels are high, which releases all that court as
Speaker 1: all in your body all the time you're running kind
Speaker 1: of on a high level of all. Thank you, Jane.
Speaker 1: I love to you and we'll talk to you later.
Speaker 1: Thank you, sweetie. You're welcome, very welcome. Jane Baldwin Sasso
Speaker 1: is a physical therapist in upstate New York. If you're
Speaker 1: enjoying this conversation, Tell a friend and be sure to follow.
Speaker 1: Here's the thing on the I Heart radio app, Apple
Speaker 1: podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back.
Speaker 1: I talked to clarinetists David Gould about COVID's impact on
Speaker 1: his life as a professional musician in New York. I'm
Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin, and this is here's the thing. The COVID
Speaker 1: pandemic was a crushing blow to performers. For professional musicians,
Speaker 1: especially those who perform with large ensembles, most of their
Speaker 1: work came to a complete halt. David Gould plays clarinet
Speaker 1: in the Orchestra of the American Ballet Theater and the
Speaker 1: Pandemics toll goes beyond the loss of his livelihood over
Speaker 1: the last year. The biggest effects since this obviously, I
Speaker 1: mean the loss of my father, mother and my mother
Speaker 1: being ill at the same time. And then you know
Speaker 1: the same story that now over four people have gone through.
Speaker 1: You can't be there to comfort and and all that
Speaker 1: sort of thing. I mean, the the silver lining, if
Speaker 1: if you can can call it that, this all this downtime,
Speaker 1: this you know, no time playing or rehearsing or traveling
Speaker 1: or all that sort of thing. Um, I was able
Speaker 1: to spend more time with my family like everybody else,
Speaker 1: and we kind of had a pod with my folks.
Speaker 1: We would go out and spend weekends there and I
Speaker 1: was hanging out with them, and I was helping my
Speaker 1: dad with stuff around house, and we we got closer,
Speaker 1: you know, we I mean we had a normal relationship
Speaker 1: like everybody else, you know, ups and downs, but nothing bad.
Speaker 1: But we just got closer doing things. And so that
Speaker 1: was the silver lining of the whole thing from that side.
Speaker 1: You know, of course, artistically, to lose all real opportunities
Speaker 1: to kind of share, to be in the same place
Speaker 1: with people in you know, in a in a hall.
Speaker 1: I think every performer wants to share. They want to
Speaker 1: share their story, they want to give to the audience.
Speaker 1: And I mean, as musicians, it's our job to interpret
Speaker 1: what someone else wrote and inspire those listening, to draw
Speaker 1: people in, to make them love this music as well.
Speaker 1: And there's a feeling walking out on stage, you know,
Speaker 1: it's that feeling, the excitement, this this tangible, uh feeling
Speaker 1: that you know, you put the you know, the uniform
Speaker 1: or the tales or whatever it's gonna be. You're gonna
Speaker 1: walk out and you're gonna play and share. And that's
Speaker 1: you know, obviously the financial it is is huge. Describe
Speaker 1: your dad. Your dad was retired. What kind of work
Speaker 1: did he do? So he, Uh, he was a pressman
Speaker 1: for the daily News back in the day. He did
Speaker 1: that for about twenty seven years. And while he was
Speaker 1: doing that, he he had his own business. Believe it
Speaker 1: or not. He would rebuild fuel pumps and water pumps
Speaker 1: for old cars. And uh, myself and my two brothers,
Speaker 1: you know, the family business. So we'd come home from school,
Speaker 1: we would help out. We would all do some of
Speaker 1: that stuff. And it's just how it went. And but
Speaker 1: he had been retired now all about eight or nine years,
Speaker 1: I would say, and you know he was just you know,
Speaker 1: enjoying life, you know, doing doing his thing. And and
Speaker 1: thus your career as a classical artist, how did the
Speaker 1: clarinet come into your life? It's funny the clarinet started
Speaker 1: from him. Also, he h all three sons had to
Speaker 1: pick up an instrument. It was you know, you're gonna
Speaker 1: learn an instrument, that's what we do. And my older
Speaker 1: brother played trumpet, and I looked up to him. I
Speaker 1: wanted to play the trumpet, and my father said, no, no,
Speaker 1: you know Robert's doing that. Why don't you, Why don't
Speaker 1: you play the clarinet? And he was in a phase
Speaker 1: where he was all into Already Shaw and Benny Goodman
Speaker 1: and and uh, I don't know. We were actually at
Speaker 1: an old car swap meat of all places, and there
Speaker 1: was a guy there who I think was a music teacher,
Speaker 1: but he also did some art things and would end
Speaker 1: up at car shows with instruments selling them, which doesn't
Speaker 1: sound so kocier to me, but it is what it is.
Speaker 1: So I ended up got my first clarent it that
Speaker 1: way and made my way with it and kind of
Speaker 1: got inspired. When I hit high school, I was a
Speaker 1: band teacher that was inspirational and did everything we could
Speaker 1: to not touch the table. Did your father have any
Speaker 1: pre existing conditions? If you don't mind my asking, well,
Speaker 1: I mean, look, he was not exactly the portrait of health.
Speaker 1: He um, he had had some infections, he had diabetes.
Speaker 1: How quickly did this all play out? He what happened?
Speaker 1: You know? He went in the hospital and they I
Speaker 1: think they were testing every few days and negative negative, negative, negative,
Speaker 1: and then one day positive. Uh. In fact, my mother
Speaker 1: caught it there too, we believe, and then they think
Speaker 1: he got it where in the hospital. No, he had
Speaker 1: been in the hospital for an infection. He was fighting
Speaker 1: and he uh, they were testing him and he ended
Speaker 1: up with it in his like second the third week
Speaker 1: in the day, but beginning of the third week of
Speaker 1: the hospital. So and he I within a week of
Speaker 1: being diagnosed. Basically, yeah, oh my god. And my mother
Speaker 1: she had it. She was at home. I mean she
Speaker 1: for her it seemed like I would say, a bad flu.
Speaker 1: You know, she was out really bad for about a
Speaker 1: day and a half, two days, and then slowly, you know,
Speaker 1: aches and pains went away. And but then I was
Speaker 1: a Monday, and by Friday she was you know, felt
Speaker 1: more like herself again. So, you know, in in one thing,
Speaker 1: and this is my my thought with classical music, it's
Speaker 1: a hundred and I don't know what is it? A
Speaker 1: hundred a hundred and ten hundred and eighteen people people
Speaker 1: on stage. It's not Shostakovic unless we have the whole
Speaker 1: gang up there, you know. And uh, and I'm wondering,
Speaker 1: do you miss your colleagues? Yeah, So I'm the luckiest
Speaker 1: until all this, I felt like I was the luckiest
Speaker 1: guy in the world because I'm you know, I'm a
Speaker 1: member of an American Valley Theater orchestra and so we
Speaker 1: play in New York in the in our season's um
Speaker 1: But I'm also you know, a sub or an extra
Speaker 1: musician with a lot of these great groups, and it's
Speaker 1: special to make music together. You know, it's it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's an ensemble of things. And it's like you said,
Speaker 1: you don't you don't have that one part. I mean,
Speaker 1: the show can go on, but it's not the same thing.
Speaker 1: It's a family. I mean, we've had countless zoom calls
Speaker 1: since this has gone on, and just you know, check
Speaker 1: it in coffee time, and we spend more time i
Speaker 1: think with the dancers in those uh than we sometimes
Speaker 1: are during the seasons. You know, it's just what going on?
Speaker 1: And are you staying in touch with some of the
Speaker 1: people you work with? Of course, you know, how are
Speaker 1: they coping? You know, they're they're doing their best. The
Speaker 1: same thing, you know, it's the finances, so they're figuring
Speaker 1: that out. And and also it's the same thing. You know,
Speaker 1: one month, two months, three months, okay, six months, okay,
Speaker 1: nine months, and you just start to hear about people
Speaker 1: who are moving away, people that are selling their extra instruments,
Speaker 1: and then finally there's some you know, I'm friendly with
Speaker 1: a lot of jazz musicians. I mean, I know some
Speaker 1: jazz musicians who have kind of just said I think
Speaker 1: I'm done, you know, just because I can't. I can't
Speaker 1: make a year eighteen months without any sort of income.
Speaker 1: Friends of mine having a conversation a couple of us,
Speaker 1: they working all kinds of different fields. We were talking
Speaker 1: about how are all of us gonna get erased by
Speaker 1: the COVID, Like, is the COVID gonna come back when? When?
Speaker 1: When it starts, people are gonna be like, well, your
Speaker 1: your career was a pre COVID career. It's literally BC
Speaker 1: before COVID, and they want everything new. Is it like
Speaker 1: an etch a sketch that people are gonna want to
Speaker 1: just flip it over and erase everything and say let's
Speaker 1: start everything new. Now, you're still in the ensemble there
Speaker 1: at ABT and you haven't benna. You've been given any indication?
Speaker 1: Are they? Are they thinking about fall of this year? Well,
Speaker 1: our spring season was canceled, of course the fault. We're
Speaker 1: hopeful for the fall. You know, we're hoping that it'll
Speaker 1: that it will happen, but this, you know, we have
Speaker 1: to wait and see, like everybody else, Like everything else.
Speaker 1: It's unreal. You're not performing that much classical music, and
Speaker 1: you're certainly not performing any under the circumstances you normally do.
Speaker 1: Are you listening to more class cycle music as a result. Yeah,
Speaker 1: of course. I mean I've been listening to everything from
Speaker 1: Brahms to Tchaikovsky to shasta Kovich, and it's almost it's
Speaker 1: in a way, it's got a memory lane thinking of
Speaker 1: the things that we used to do and all this
Speaker 1: and the concerts that we just did and projects were
Speaker 1: working on. But of course trying my best to listen
Speaker 1: as much as I can. My my aunt, who's in
Speaker 1: her eighties, who's a poet, she actually was giving me
Speaker 1: a hard time that I don't have good speakers at home.
Speaker 1: I should be listening to more. My kids should be
Speaker 1: hearing more music, more classical music. What are you doing? Like?
Speaker 1: It kind of guilted me into taking it seriously again.
Speaker 1: What's a nice soothing piece you recommend people listening to
Speaker 1: just calm them down. At the end of another COVID
Speaker 1: impacted day, I would still stand by this Brahms piano
Speaker 1: Trio B Major number one. Uh, there's a recording I
Speaker 1: like with the trio to Trieste. It's an old recording. Uh.
Speaker 1: You know, we we pick our favorite recordings based on
Speaker 1: what we're we hear first sometimes or what sticks with
Speaker 1: us or what makes an impact. The trio d Trieste
Speaker 1: here it is. Is that what you said? Yeah, just
Speaker 1: the first couple of bars you'll hear just in the piano.
Speaker 1: It's just your shoulders drop and then the cello comes in.
Speaker 1: It's just it's really it's magical and and no joke.
Speaker 1: I mean it's this sounds silly, like a public service
Speaker 1: announcement for classical music, but I'm just thrilled that you're
Speaker 1: putting this out there for people that might not know
Speaker 1: classical music and nobody should ever be intimidated by it.
Speaker 1: And that sounds maybe ridiculous, but it's you just try
Speaker 1: a little bit end up eventually hopefully going to a concert.
Speaker 1: I mean, you asked about missing colleagues. I miss my colleagues,
Speaker 1: but I miss sitting on stage and being lost in
Speaker 1: this sea of sounds and music, you know, the waves
Speaker 1: and the and you get lost in there. It's it's look,
Speaker 1: we call it playing. We're in it's fun. It's I mean,
Speaker 1: it's sometimes hard work, but it's really special. I always
Speaker 1: say that when I go to the movies, I'm often disappointed,
Speaker 1: and when I go to the theater, I'm sometimes disappointed.
Speaker 1: And when I go to the symphony, I'm never disappointed. Never.
Speaker 1: It's the best evenings I've ever had in my life.
Speaker 1: My god, it's it's it's one of the things I
Speaker 1: missed the most. Thank you so much for doing this
Speaker 1: with us. Stay safe, Thank you so much, and stay safe,
Speaker 1: be well. Clarinetist David Gould by thanks to him, Dr
Speaker 1: Odette Hall and my sister Jane Baldwin Sasso. I'm Alec
Speaker 1: Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing from my
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. As David Gould recommended, this is the Brahms
Speaker 1: Piano trio number one in B major from the Trio
Speaker 1: de Trieste Ute