1 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: In two thousand three, forty four year old David Stack 2 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: had everything a guy could want. A loving family, a 3 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: successful construction business, and his own piece of wilderness, a 4 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: sprawling one hundred ninety acres in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley, a 5 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: place where he could disappear into the woods, hunt turkeys 6 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: and deer, or just relax and enjoy the sounds of 7 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: cicadas and cardinals. It was a place he should have 8 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 1: been safe. David, his son Brian, and his brother Jeff 9 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 1: were excited to hunt turkeys on opening day, April twelfth. 10 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: They'd scouted the night before they knew where the birds 11 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: would be, and at five thirty a m. They split up, 12 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 1: each heading to their own pre plant spots. Then the gunshot. 13 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 1: Jeff heard it first, too early, too close, something about 14 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: it didn't feel right. 15 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 2: It was still dark. 16 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 3: I don't think it was legal shooting. 17 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 4: And I heard a gun shot, and as dust Zacky tell, 18 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 4: it came from over there where Dave was. And I 19 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 4: said to myself, Damn, Dave, I don't think that was 20 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 4: a legal shot. 21 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 1: Brian heard shots too, but the wind was up, the 22 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: sound bounced around the hills and trees. He couldn't be 23 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 1: sure where it had come from, so he shook it off. 24 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 5: I dozed off and woke up to birds of my decoys. 25 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 5: I can hear him out there spitting and drummond. And 26 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 5: that was actually my first gobbler, you know. I shot 27 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 5: the bird that morning. 28 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 3: I think it was eight. 29 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 5: Fifty nine o'clock somewhere in there, and you know, I 30 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 5: was excited, fired up, and you know, I got my 31 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 5: stuff together and was heading back to the cabin. I 32 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 5: wanted to show it all. 33 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:12,799 Speaker 1: But David never came back. No texts, no radio calls, nothing. 34 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:18,359 Speaker 1: By noon, concern turned to unease. By four pm, unease 35 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: became fear. 36 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 5: Eventually started, you know, just whistling and call in, trying 37 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 5: to you know, get some kind of response. And this 38 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 5: went on until she probably, you know, four o'clock, and 39 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 5: then we really started getting worried. It turned from you know, 40 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 5: worried to panic. 41 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:38,959 Speaker 1: They searched the woods, called his name. 42 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 2: Nothing. 43 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: By nightfall, the search intensified, neighbors, state troopers, a helicopter 44 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 1: circling overhead, but still no sign of David. Then early 45 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 1: the next morning they found him. 46 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 4: I saw the Turkey decoys mars. I thought it was turkey, 47 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 4: but they were decoys. And then there was turkeys in 48 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 4: the trees right above them that we we spooked or 49 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,399 Speaker 4: jumped or whatever you want to call, and they flew 50 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 4: out of the trees. 51 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:17,919 Speaker 2: That's about the time I then saw Day laying on 52 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 2: his back. 53 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,239 Speaker 4: I did I did not get of course, I was 54 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 4: very emotional, and uh, anyway, I checked. 55 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 3: I think I checked the pulse, but. 56 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 2: It was obvious she was dead. 57 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: And the way his body was found, something was off. 58 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: Kenny Graff, a close friend of David's, was there when 59 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 1: they pulled his body from the woods after the crime 60 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: scene had been processed. He'd been in law enforcement for 61 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: nearly two decades. He knew what an accident looked like 62 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: and this was not that. 63 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 3: And we go to pick him up and they get 64 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 3: blood on my hands. We rolled him over to one 65 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 3: side and you just got to pullet. A bullet hole 66 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 3: in his back. So that's when they say something's not right. 67 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 3: This isn't an accidental death. 68 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 1: A bullet hole in his back, no sign of a struggle, 69 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: his gun untouched, his sandwich still in his vest. 70 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 3: We get him out, and I mean, I'm just as 71 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 3: a human being, I'm just struggling. I mean, I am 72 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 3: fucking struggling. It's it's a bitch caring your best friend out, 73 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 3: a dead body out of the woods, you know what 74 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 3: I mean. It's just no fun at all. 75 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: But what's the out the most? The face mask pulled 76 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: up and a single cigarette butt lying next to him. 77 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 3: If you're familiar with turkey out, which I'm sure you are, 78 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 3: you know you wear the full face mask and this 79 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 3: and that for the spring God, where to keep the 80 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 3: reflection off your face and stuff? Dave's was pulled all 81 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:04,159 Speaker 3: the way back over top of. 82 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: His head, as if someone had pulled it up to 83 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: see his face. For twenty years, no one has answered 84 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 1: the one question that matters most. Who pulled that trigger? 85 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: The Virginia Department of Wildlife Resources says the case is 86 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 1: still open, but in all these years, no suspects have 87 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: been named, no grand jury has been convened, no arrests 88 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: have been made. Kenny, Jeff and Bryan believed the shooter 89 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: knew exactly. 90 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 2: What they had done. 91 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: They stood over David, looked at him, and walked away. 92 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: But why was it a mistake, a moment of panic, 93 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: or was it something worse? I'm Jordan Sillers and this 94 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: is Blood Trails, a Turkey Woods cold case. 95 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 2: Part one. 96 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 1: The crime scene. Jeff, Brian, and Kenny all saw the 97 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 1: crime scene, but their descriptions don't always match up. Here's Kenny. 98 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:21,840 Speaker 3: You can see where Dave cleared out a little spot 99 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 3: to sit by a tree. He had a decoy set up, 100 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 3: his gun was leaning against the tree, and he's just 101 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 3: laying on his back. And I noticed it was a 102 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 3: cigarette butt put out right there. Now, Dave did smoke 103 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 3: once in a while, and he had part of a 104 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 3: pack in his backpack with this brand not on the ground. 105 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 3: Was a different brand than what they smoked. 106 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: Kenny was a detective for nineteen years with the Metropolitan 107 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 1: Washington Airport's Authority. He told me he's worked drug and 108 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: homicide cases with other federal agencies, so he's the kind 109 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 1: of guy who might notice the brand name of a 110 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: cigarette butt lying on the ground. Brian and Jeff don't 111 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 1: remember anything about a cigarette butt. Brian remembers the shotgun 112 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: leaning against the tree, and they both agree that someone 113 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: had walked up to the body. 114 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 2: Here's Brian. 115 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 5: He was laying away from the tree somewhat. His face 116 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 5: mask was pulled down his glasses were pushed up, his 117 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 5: sandwich was still in his vest. The decoys were only 118 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 5: like like fifteen yards sixteen yards from him, which is unusual. 119 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 5: So I don't think that was his location. I don't 120 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 5: know if that's where he was setting up or what, 121 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 5: but it definitely seemed unusual with it how close he 122 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 5: was to the decoys with a gun sitting against the 123 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 5: tree there, and you know how his face mask was 124 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 5: pulled down and glasses were up. 125 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: Those glasses are more important than they might sound. David's wife, Tammy, 126 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: didn't see the crime scene herself, but her knowledge of 127 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: her husband gave her an important insight into what those 128 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: glasses might indicate. 129 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 6: They said his glasses were up like he pushed his 130 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 6: classes up on top of his head. And he would 131 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 6: never ever ever do that. He would take him off 132 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 6: and hang him from a shirt or take him off 133 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 6: in some some place. He couldn't stand having them up 134 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 6: on his head. I just I just have this gut 135 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 6: feeling that whoever did it knows that they did it. 136 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: I reached out to the Virginia Department of Wildlife Resources 137 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: to confirm some of these details, but they refused, citing 138 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: the ongoing investigation. Fortunately for US, the agency hasn't always 139 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: been so tight lipped. The incident gained tons of local 140 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: media attention after it happened, and one of the best 141 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 1: reports came in a May third edition of The Roanoak Times. 142 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 1: Here's what the Virginia DWR, then called the Virginia Department 143 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: of Game and Inland Fisheries, told reporters in the weeks 144 00:08:56,200 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 1: following the murder. The shooting occurred on a property near 145 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 1: the Saalville Hill section of Rockbridge County, between South Buffalo 146 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 1: Road and Bluegrass Trail. David was likely leaning against a 147 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: tree when he got shot. The bullet entered his body 148 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 1: from behind, cut his aorta, and lodged in his heart. 149 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: The terrain and angle at which the bullet struck David 150 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: indicate that the shooter fired at close range and would 151 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 1: have been able to tell what he'd hit. The hill 152 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: and brush in the area would have kept the bullet 153 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: from traveling very far. Kenny told me that the bullet 154 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: itself came from a twenty two caliber center fire cartridge, 155 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,959 Speaker 1: such as a two two three Remington, two twenty two 156 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: Remington or twenty two two fifty. I wasn't able to 157 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: find any contemporaneous media reports with this information, and the 158 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: DWR refused to name the kind of bullet that killed David, 159 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: but I did speak with one of the neighbors, a 160 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: man named James Lava, who still owns one of the 161 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: adjacent par He declined to be recorded for this podcast, 162 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: but he told me he was also turkey hunting the 163 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: morning David was killed. Game Wardens knocked on his door 164 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:10,559 Speaker 1: in the weeks after the incident and asked if he 165 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: owned any rifles chambered in a center fire twenty two 166 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: caliber cartridge. 167 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 6: He did. 168 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: In fact, he said he hunts turkeys during the fall 169 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 1: season with the rifle chambered in twenty two hornet, but 170 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,199 Speaker 1: he was hunting with a shotgun on the morning of 171 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: the incident. Game Wardens apparently believed his story, because, according 172 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: to Lava, they sent his rifle to Richmond for ballistics 173 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: testing and returned it about a month later. Whatever they 174 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 1: found it either didn't point to Lava or was inconclusive, 175 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: but the suggests at least at the time, investigators believed 176 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: David was killed with a Centerfire twenty two Many states 177 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: do not allow turkey hunters to use rifles, but Virginia 178 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: is not one of them. 179 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 2: To this day. 180 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:53,559 Speaker 1: The only restriction they put on a turkey hunter's gun 181 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 1: is that during the spring season they cannot use shot 182 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 1: larger than number two. Kenny, Jeff, and Ran all agree 183 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: that the shooting was most likely an accident. They don't 184 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: recall David having any ongoing conflicts with anyone or any 185 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: of the neighbors being upset about the recent purchase of 186 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 1: the land. Here's Brian. 187 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 5: My haunt ya is it's either what's a young haunor 188 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 5: inexperience or older haunter that had poor vision. I don't 189 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 5: think it's anything in malice done in on purpose, but 190 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:25,199 Speaker 5: I don't. 191 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 1: Know Part two the neighbors. Cases like this are difficult 192 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: to investigate. There are no witnesses, and what physical evidence 193 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: exists is hard to find in the leaves and dirt. 194 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: But if you're like me, your first thought goes to 195 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: the neighbors. It's easy to imagine a neighboring property owner 196 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 1: wanders onto the stacks land, sees what he thinks is 197 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: a turkey in the dimness of the morning, and pulls 198 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 1: the trigger. That's where Kenny's mind went to, even before 199 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: his friend's body had been found. While the rest of 200 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: the Stack family was still searching the woods. He paid 201 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:17,359 Speaker 1: a visit to the neighbors. 202 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 3: At daylight the next morning, which was the thirteenth, April thirteenth. 203 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 3: I'm thinking, well, maybe the neighbors know something. 204 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: Kenny told me the names of the people who lived there, 205 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 1: but we're going to bleep them out. None of them 206 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: still live on those properties as far as I've been 207 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: able to tell, and the Virginia d WR has never 208 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: named an official suspect. You'll see why that's relevant here 209 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: in a minute. The first house Kenny visited belonged to 210 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 1: someone we'll call Johnson. 211 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 3: We had met him the previous fall because he came 212 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 3: over he was looked for his dog, and we talked 213 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 3: to him a little bit. He says, I don't I 214 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 3: don't allow not. I go to his house, played down 215 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:03,839 Speaker 3: again who I was, and I was looking for David. 216 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 3: I wonder if he heard seeing anything. He said no, 217 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 3: And I remember thinking, when I was standing in his house, 218 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 3: he got all his turkey mounts, a deer mounts, and 219 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 3: I'm thinking, this guy told me he didn't hunt, so huh. 220 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 3: I didn't say anything about it then, but he pulls 221 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 3: out a map, and this could be coincidence. Don't get 222 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 3: me wrong, this could be coincidence. But he pulls out 223 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 3: a map and he points at the map and he says, 224 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 3: there's the property line where it is property George Dave's property. 225 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 3: He says, you should look great in this area here, 226 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 3: You should look great in this area here. 227 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:47,079 Speaker 1: Remember Kenny spoke to Johnson before they'd found David's body. 228 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 1: So I asked, Kenny, what you're thinking was the spot? 229 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: He pointed to the same spot they eventually found David. 230 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 3: It was within feet, within feet. 231 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: Kenny admits that this could be explained in a non 232 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: nefarious way. Johnson wouldn't be the first hunter to hide 233 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: the fact that he's a hunter, and it doesn't make 234 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: much sense to lead investigators to the person you just 235 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: murdered the day before. Still, it's weird, but Kenny's interactions 236 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: with the neighbors got even stranger. Kenny stopped by another 237 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: house where an elderly man told him that while he 238 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: doesn't hunt, one of his friends had been hunting on 239 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: the morning David was killed. We'll call this friend Smith. 240 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: Smith lived down the road. So Kenny knocked on the door, 241 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: but nobody answered. Kenny left a message on Smith's answering machine, 242 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: using the phone number the elderly neighbor had given him. 243 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: Kenny went back to the Stacks cabin and the phone rang. 244 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: The woman on the line claimed to be Smith's wife. 245 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 3: She says, uh, doesn't know anything. Did see anything? 246 00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 2: Did Aunt? 247 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 3: And I said, told me? He told me his truck 248 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 3: was parked at his house. Oh yeah, Well, he hunted 249 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 3: opposite side of the road. And I'm thinking to myself, 250 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 3: how do you know what side of the road David 251 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 3: was on? 252 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 2: You know what I mean? 253 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 3: How do you know what's side of the road I'm 254 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 3: talking about. 255 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: Kenny didn't think too much about it at the time, 256 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: and David's body was found not long after, But that's 257 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: not the last he heard of Smith. A year or 258 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: two after David's death, Jeff was walking the property and 259 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: he found something, something very out of place in the woods. 260 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 4: I found the pillow bumble was. 261 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 3: Same on it. 262 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 4: It was right on the property line. It was a 263 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 4: prescription for one of you know, one of these comment 264 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 4: kind of anti depressant types. 265 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 3: It was a feat. 266 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: Jeff said. The place he found the bottle near the 267 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: property line would have been less than a ten minute 268 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: walk from where they found David's body. He sent the 269 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: bottle to the lead investigator on the case at the time, 270 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: but never heard anything more. The investigator has since passed away, 271 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: and Kenny says they haven't heard anything from the DWR 272 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: for years. The shooter could have been a neighbor, but 273 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: it also could have been someone who didn't live in 274 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: the area. That would make the culprit even more difficult 275 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: to find, and it would help explain how this case 276 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: has gone unsolved. Neither Jeff Kenny or Brian ever mentioned 277 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: having a problem with trespassers, but Kenny did mention one 278 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: alternative theory. One of the original DWR investigators on this case, 279 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: a guy named Stephen Pike, knew a producer on the 280 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: television show America's Most Wanted. He wanted to give this 281 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: case as much exposure as possible, so he asked the 282 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: producer for a favor. It wasn't the kind of story 283 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: the program usually covered, but they decided to do it anyway. 284 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: The segment aired on November one, two thousand and three, 285 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 1: in episode seven thirty seven of the show. Younger listeners 286 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 1: might not remember, but America's Most Wanted was a hit 287 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: show back in the day at the time of its 288 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 1: cancelation by the Fox Television Network in June twenty eleven. 289 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: Its twenty four season run made it the longest running 290 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: program in the network's history, and each episode was watched 291 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: by thousands. The point is including David's story on amw 292 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: as its fans call it would have exposed the case 293 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: to a huge audience. The segment on David ended with 294 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: an appeal to that audience for tips. We don't know 295 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 1: exactly what kind of information came in, but Kenny claims 296 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: that two tips came in from people in Rockbridge County, 297 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: one of which pointed back to Johnson. 298 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 3: The second tip stays, you should talk to he has 299 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 3: a hunting camp and he had hunters there that morning 300 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 3: and they left that morning. 301 00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: Kenny claims that Johnson was running an illegal hunting camp. 302 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: An investigator spoke with several of the people who had 303 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 1: hunted that morning. 304 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 3: They talked to a couple of people that were there 305 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 3: that morning but had left around ten o'clock. And I'm 306 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,959 Speaker 3: thinking to myself, it's opening day of Spring Gobbers season. 307 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 3: Why do you leave at ten am and go home? 308 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: It's a good question. David may have been killed not 309 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: by a neighbor, but by someone who didn't live in 310 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 1: the area. That person could have been hunting legally, or 311 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 1: it could have been a poacher. In either case, the 312 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: randomness of that scenario could make it even more likely 313 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:53,120 Speaker 1: that David's killer is never found. Part three The DWR 314 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 1: the Virginia Department of Wildlife Resources says this case is 315 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:03,239 Speaker 1: still considered active. Special agents are currently assigned, and they 316 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 1: said in an email of that quote, recent investigative measures 317 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: and evidence examinations have been explored. They've digitized the case files, 318 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: and they're collaborating with Virginia State Police to have the 319 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 1: case added to the state cold case database. So someone 320 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: is working on it. How much they're working on it 321 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: is a different question. Kenny says he hasn't heard from 322 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: the agency in the last four or five years. In 323 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:35,400 Speaker 1: the meantime, his frustration has only increased. 324 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 3: We had a very hard time for years just getting 325 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 3: them to communicate with us, to talk to us. I 326 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 3: don't want to say these guys screwed up, but somebody 327 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 3: screwed up, and it's a shame, it really is. Haven't 328 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 3: been a law enforcement officer myself, for twenty five years. 329 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 3: I don't understand to this day why this case wasn't 330 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 3: solved within a few days. 331 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 2: I really don't. 332 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: Kenny believes the agency failed to collect all the evidence 333 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: at the scene, and they failed to investigate the neighbors 334 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: closely enough, specifically Johnson and Smith. Remember that cigarette butt 335 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, the one that, 336 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 1: according to Kenny, was a different brand than the one 337 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: David smoked. 338 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 3: Believe it or not, they didn't collect it. They police 339 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 3: did not collect it. I was assumed they collected it. 340 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 3: And then a few months later I talked to I 341 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 3: was talking to DNR, and I said, well, what about 342 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 3: cigarette button? I'd like, what cigarette butt. 343 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: It's possible Kenny was mistaken and that the cigarette butt 344 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:41,160 Speaker 1: was actually David's. It's also possible whoever Kenny asked didn't 345 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: know or was lying, or it's possible Kenny just made 346 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 1: the whole thing up. But whatever the truth is, the 347 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: DWR isn't saying. I filed a public records request asking 348 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,159 Speaker 1: for documents related to this case. The agency responded and 349 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: said that while they have one d ten pages of files, 350 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: they can't release any because they're part of an ongoing 351 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:10,880 Speaker 1: criminal investigation fair enough. Then, on June seventh, twenty twenty four, 352 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 1: I sent an email to the agency's public information department 353 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: and asked to interview the agent in charge of the case. 354 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 1: The agency initially agreed to an interview, but wanted to 355 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: see and approve any questions prior to the interview being recorded, 356 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 1: so I sent a list of questions on July third, 357 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, asking about everything you've heard in this 358 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: episode cigarette butt, pillbottle, Johnson, and Smith. I even asked 359 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: for the agency to confirm a few of the details 360 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: that they had shared with the media in two thousand 361 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: and three, things like how far away the shooter was 362 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:48,360 Speaker 1: and whether he likely knew what he'd done. On November fifteenth, 363 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, which was for those counting over four 364 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: months after I'd sent the list of questions, the DWR 365 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: backed out of the phone interview they'd previously agreed to. 366 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: Why well, here's what they said, Out of an abundance 367 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: of caution to protect the integrity of the investigation, the 368 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: department will not be available for any in person interviews 369 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: or discussions. Instead, they responded to my list of questions 370 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: with typed answers, but they refused to share any details 371 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: of the case beyond when and where it happened, they said, 372 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 1: quoting again DWR Conservation police officers spent a considerable amount 373 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: of time and effort to identify the person responsible for 374 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: mister Stack's death and followed all leads that were provided 375 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: and developed through the course of the investigation. Specifics about 376 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 1: their investigation are not available due to this being an 377 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: open investigation. The only new piece of information they offered 378 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 1: was about whether they ever identified a suspect, they said, quote, 379 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: several persons of interest have been identified. These persons have 380 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: been interviewed and declined a polygraph. Whoever those people were, 381 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 1: the agency didn't gather enough information to make an arrest. 382 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: Part four. An expert's opinion. I don't know about you, 383 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: but I have more questions than answers about this case. 384 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 1: I frankly don't understand why the Virginia d w R 385 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: hasn't been more helpful. I wonder how investigators knew what 386 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: kind of bullet killed David, and I wonder whether they 387 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 1: used every investigative technique at their disposal to help answer 388 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: some of these questions. I call up my buddy and 389 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: meat Eater's own Brent Reeves. You know Brent as the 390 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: host of This Country Life, where he dispenses down home 391 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: wisdom in a deep and melodious baritone. But Brent wasn't 392 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 1: always a world famous podcast host. In a previous life, 393 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 1: he served for thirty two years as a law enforcement 394 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: agent in Arkansas. He's investigated homicide cases himself, so I 395 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: knew he'd be the perfect person to help us break 396 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: down this case. Brent, thanks for being here. 397 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:18,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, man, thank you for inviting me only here. 398 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: So I know that you were in law enforcement for 399 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: a long time, but could you fill in some of 400 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 1: those details. What agencies did you work for and what 401 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 1: kinds of things did you do well? 402 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 7: I was a police officer, a law enforcement officer for 403 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 7: thirty two years and seven months. The first two thirds 404 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 7: of my career, I was actually doing police work what 405 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:44,199 Speaker 7: people think of as police work, answering calls, working accidents, 406 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 7: investigating you know, robberies and thefts, crimes including homicides, and 407 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 7: with a large portion of that my career was dedicated 408 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 7: to undercovered narcotics and narcotics instigations. But when homicides would occur, 409 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 7: especially in a department limited by manpowered And I'm talking 410 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 7: about in the biggest department I worked in in South Arkansas, 411 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 7: I think we had probably forty maybe forty deputies sworn 412 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 7: officers that were working every day, and they would bring 413 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 7: the whole CID Investigation division into work a homicide, which 414 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:37,679 Speaker 7: over the course of my career, you know, probably forty 415 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 7: five fifty homicides during that during that length of time. 416 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: So if if you were assigned this case back in 417 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: two thousand and three, I'm curious what the first steps 418 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: are on the first in the first few days, the 419 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:57,400 Speaker 1: first few weeks, what kinds of strategies would you use 420 00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: to try to figure out who did this? 421 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 7: Well, well, you know, the crime scene, that's that's important, 422 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 7: and limiting a crime scene, the parameters of where you're 423 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 7: operating is important anytime that you're working with something outdoor, 424 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 7: especially like this, and even. 425 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:20,439 Speaker 2: Add the fact that. 426 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:26,640 Speaker 7: Someone died as a result of a rifle shot, you're 427 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 7: there's no telling how big your crime scene is. The 428 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 7: cards are stacked against you to begin with in something 429 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 7: like this, so as as large a perimeter as you 430 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 7: can gather or that you can secure, and then it's 431 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 7: just the meticulous going through everything that is conceivably close 432 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 7: to where the incident occurred, because there's there's two places 433 00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 7: here that are important, where the shot was fired from 434 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 7: and obviously where the shot was fired too, which you 435 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 7: know caused the death of the man. So and in 436 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:15,920 Speaker 7: doing so, anytime that you approach or leave a crime scene, 437 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 7: you take something in and you take something out unwittingly, 438 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,880 Speaker 7: You're you're stepping on leaves, you're making tracks, you're sweating, 439 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 7: you're dropping DNA. There is there's so many things to 440 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 7: consider that could either help or hinder the investigation. You know, 441 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 7: somebody maybe you stepped on something you didn't see, a 442 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 7: hull or a track or in this case, a cigarette. 443 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 7: But I think that was a kind of a controversial 444 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 7: part of the of what people saw there. So there's 445 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 7: to answer your question, how would I approach it? You 446 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 7: have to build as big a perimeter as you can 447 00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 7: and slowly work your way from the outside. 448 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: And then so once you've done that with the crime scene, 449 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 1: would you then be canvassing the neighbors and seeing if 450 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: they saw anything or heard anything. 451 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 7: Absolutely, I mean, you got to talk to You've got 452 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 7: to run out every conceivable pathway, even if it's talking 453 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 7: to the garbage man that's or the mail carrier, anybody 454 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:31,440 Speaker 7: that strip makes a regularly route through there, along with neighbors, 455 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 7: anybody within earshot, anybody within reason that could have possibly 456 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 7: saw something that morning that stood out of place, or 457 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 7: saw something that wasn't out of place but just saw something. 458 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 7: You got to exhaust every available opportunity to gather information 459 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 7: as quick as possible. There was an old TV show 460 00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 7: the first forty eight. 461 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 2: Called I think it was on A and E. We 462 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 2: had a homicide that I worked. 463 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 7: It actually was a focus of that, and it's true 464 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 7: the first forty eight hours are usually the most critical, 465 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 7: especially in something that's outside outdoors that you're affected by 466 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 7: all kinds of environment environmental. 467 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 2: Conditions, rain, wind, temperatures, whatever. 468 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 7: Like I said at the beginning, the deck is stacked 469 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 7: against you from the get go when you're dealing with 470 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 7: anything outside, and time is absolutely a crucial factor in 471 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 7: finding the correct path that you need to go from 472 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 7: there to lead to where you know the suspect is. 473 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: So I know you haven't seen the files on this case. 474 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: I haven't seen the files on this case either, but 475 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: just based on what you know from what I've been told, 476 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: you've listened to the podcast. What jumps out at you 477 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 1: about this case, about the crime scene, about the investigation, 478 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 1: anything kind of seem out of the ordinary. 479 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 7: The magnitude of it is what jumps out at me 480 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 7: is just the magnitude of the size of the crime scene. 481 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 7: There's a lot to take in there, there's a lot 482 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 7: to look at, and that, to me, through this whole 483 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 7: thing has been I guess one of the key features. 484 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 7: Another one being unfortunately, the gentleman was found by his friends, 485 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 7: and you put emotion into testimony, and you put emotion 486 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 7: into the things that were seen and observed, and sometimes. 487 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 2: It affects what was saw. 488 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 7: Now, I should have said this at the very beginning, 489 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 7: and my heart goes out to the gentleman's family and 490 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:59,240 Speaker 7: his friends. But unfortunately, and I've said this before and 491 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 7: it has approved fact that if you want two different 492 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 7: eyewitnesses or two different statements to the same thing, get 493 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 7: two eyewitnesses to it because the other. Because people observe 494 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 7: and look at different things, different things stand out to them. 495 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 7: It's not saying that they're wrong, but if you've got 496 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 7: two people that saw the exact same thing, and when 497 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 7: they write their statement, their word for word verbatim, or 498 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 7: what's going on or what supposedly happened that it Sometimes 499 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,719 Speaker 7: that would lead one to believe that the statements were 500 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 7: manufactured before you got there. 501 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 2: This obviously was not there. That was not in this 502 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 2: case at all. 503 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 7: But different people see different things, and some people, you know, 504 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 7: there's confirmation bias and everything, and you just have to 505 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 7: be very careful about taking statements from people who are 506 00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 7: emotionally and physically and mentally involved with something and running 507 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 7: out the line of questions those folks to make sure 508 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 7: that they saw what they saw, give them every opportunity 509 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 7: to prove what they saw. The face mask was something 510 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 7: that stood out in the interior of this crime. Is 511 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 7: how the gentleman's turkey mask was pulled up and his 512 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 7: face was exposed. 513 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 2: Now, I want to think if I remember you correct 514 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 2: me if I'm wrong, Jordan, that was what. 515 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 7: Led folks to believe that the shooter had approached the 516 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 7: person and to identify him. Is that? 517 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 2: Am I correct in that assumption? 518 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a face mask. And then also David's 519 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: wife Tammy said that glasses yeah, and she said he 520 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: never did that. He hated having his glasses kind of 521 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 1: pushed up on his face. So yeah, those of the 522 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 1: two things that made people think someone had done that 523 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 1: to see his face. 524 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 7: Okay, I'm not going to say that that didn't happen. 525 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 7: I'm also going to say that there's a reasonable doubt 526 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 7: that that was done. I can't tell you how many 527 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 7: times I have left my truck going to a spot 528 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 7: to turkey hunt, knowing where I was going to sit 529 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 7: down and put my decoys out before daylight and getting 530 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 7: completely ready and camoed up before I shut the door 531 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 7: of my truck with my turkey mask flipped over it 532 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 7: on the top of my head and walking to where 533 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 7: I'm going. You know, a turkey mask, he's got holes 534 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 7: in it. You can see out of it, but when 535 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 7: it's dim outside or dark, it's absolutely in the way 536 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 7: and hinders your peripheral vision. So there's reasonable doubt. There's 537 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 7: a reason to think that just because that was done, 538 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 7: there's got to be other factors in there that that 539 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 7: that was correct. It's not a bad theory by any means, 540 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 7: but it's also not you know, one hundred percent, the 541 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 7: glasses on top of his head. His wife would know 542 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 7: him better than anyone, you know, that's obviously something that 543 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 7: that should have been looked at, or should be looked 544 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 7: at and considered as well in the totality of the 545 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 7: crime scene to what they saw there. But you know, 546 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 7: to say, and I don't want to sound you know, 547 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,360 Speaker 7: unfeeling about this, but if he didn't die instantly, he 548 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 7: could have pushed his glasses up on top of his 549 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 7: head after he was hit accidentally, you know, just in 550 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 7: the course of. 551 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,240 Speaker 2: Being hit struck from the bullet. 552 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: So yeah, and I think this is one of the 553 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,839 Speaker 1: big questions about this case, and it matters a lot 554 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 1: to the family, is whether the shooter knew what he'd done. 555 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 2: Right. 556 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: So it's one thing if it's a stray bullet they 557 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 1: have no idea. It's another thing, you know, even if 558 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: the shooter didn't walk up to the body, if they 559 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,359 Speaker 1: were close enough to know something had happened and then 560 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: walked away and has never come forward, that matters a 561 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: lot to the family and friends. And this is a 562 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 1: point that the dw R. Initially in the months after 563 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:22,800 Speaker 1: the murder, they said they think the shooter was aware 564 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 1: that he was close enough to know. And then when 565 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: I asked them, they they said, well, we can't speculate 566 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 1: on that. So, just from your experience investigating cases, what 567 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,760 Speaker 1: kinds of evidence would they be looking at to indicate 568 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: that the shooter was close enough to know that they 569 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,320 Speaker 1: that they had a knowledge of what they'd done and 570 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: just decided to walk away. 571 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:54,360 Speaker 7: Well, the caliber bullet uh it was used, the amount 572 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,360 Speaker 7: of penetration into the victim's body, the angle that it was, 573 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:00,960 Speaker 7: there's a lot a lot of things that can go 574 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 7: into that. You know, there's a if something is that 575 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 7: close range and close if there's what's called stippling around 576 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 7: the entrance the wound. It's always an indicator of something 577 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 7: being fired at close range, which which is gunpowder and 578 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 7: debris that gets absorbed into the skin from a close 579 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 7: contact wound. If that wasn't there, it obviously tells you 580 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 7: that the person the barrel of the of the weapon 581 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 7: that was used was not close to the body or 582 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 7: to the point of contact. So then you're going to 583 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 7: go by the amount of penetration and the force that 584 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 7: that the bullet retained from that from whatever distance it 585 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:49,239 Speaker 7: was shot from, so that that could be clues as 586 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 7: to how far it was away, the time of day 587 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:59,280 Speaker 7: and being able to see in that environment was something. 588 00:36:59,360 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 3: You know. 589 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 7: I think some of the guys that were hunting with 590 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:06,919 Speaker 7: him testified that, you know, the shot was so early. 591 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,719 Speaker 7: One guy thought, wow, is that legal. That leads me 592 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,360 Speaker 7: to believe that, you know, it was just you know, 593 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 7: breaking day out there, that there was just enough light 594 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,279 Speaker 7: to be able to see if he questioned one way 595 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 7: or the other, if that was legal to be shooting 596 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:27,399 Speaker 7: that early, which also makes me think that or would 597 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 7: lead me has led me to believe that if he 598 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 7: was shot from uh, you know, a distance away, it 599 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 7: was after his decoys were set up and he was 600 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 7: moving around and someone thought it was a turkey already 601 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,800 Speaker 7: on the ground and took a shot, which was you know, 602 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 7: that's a violation of the first rule of hunting, of 603 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 7: safe hunting is shooting not making sure you knew what 604 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,800 Speaker 7: you were shooting at when you pull the trigger. But 605 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:02,080 Speaker 7: that's what you know. I it's so hard to come 606 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:09,399 Speaker 7: up with conjecture. It's purely conjecture on my part from 607 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 7: reading and listening to this podcast and having to come 608 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 7: up with some type of credible scenario in which it happened. 609 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,440 Speaker 7: But from everything that I've taken at face value that's 610 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 7: been heard here, on this podcast, it would lead me 611 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:30,959 Speaker 7: to believe, with no motive known motive of someone being 612 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,400 Speaker 7: angry or having a problem with the victim, that this 613 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:39,759 Speaker 7: was a hunting accident which resulted in the homicide of 614 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:47,320 Speaker 7: a turkey hunter a man, and whoever it was, you know, 615 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:51,879 Speaker 7: left the scene and didn't report it. That's everything from 616 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 7: that I can take it face value and come up 617 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:55,400 Speaker 7: with in my mind. 618 00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 1: So next month, it'll be twenty two years. I'm doing 619 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: my math right, since this incident happened, what what can 620 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 1: be done at this point? If this was your case, now, 621 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,719 Speaker 1: what kinds of things would you be doing to help 622 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:13,400 Speaker 1: solve this? 623 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:15,440 Speaker 2: I would you know. 624 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:19,920 Speaker 7: All the evidence that was gathered from whatever evidence was 625 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 7: gathered from there, if there science has come a long way, 626 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:32,759 Speaker 7: if if there was physical evidence gathered there other than 627 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 7: you know, I think there has been some miscommunication or 628 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,879 Speaker 7: different stories about the cigarette, but the different cigarette brand 629 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,480 Speaker 7: of cigarette, but that was found there. Somebody remembered it, 630 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:48,520 Speaker 7: another person didn't, and did you I don't know, I 631 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 7: don't remember if you got a straight answer from the 632 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:56,080 Speaker 7: DW or about if there was any of that gathered 633 00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,000 Speaker 7: there or did they say anything about any physical evidence. 634 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 2: No, they didn't. 635 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 1: They said to protect the integrity of the case, they 636 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:05,800 Speaker 1: can't release that kind of information. 637 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:10,440 Speaker 7: I got you, Okay, and that's that's true obviously. So 638 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,160 Speaker 7: but d angie, question, what would I do different? Anything 639 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 7: physical evidence wise that could have been submitted at that 640 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:25,600 Speaker 7: time to a forensics lab could be resubmitted. You know, 641 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 7: testing has improved dramatically. Different tests have been developed and 642 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:35,560 Speaker 7: invented since then, for as far as DNA and different 643 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:41,080 Speaker 7: types of physical evidence that could be garnered from a 644 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 7: crime scene. So you know, a resubmission of evidence to 645 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,279 Speaker 7: a forensics lab would be something that I would that 646 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,359 Speaker 7: I would look at specifically. 647 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. 648 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:55,960 Speaker 1: One of the things that surprised me a bit in 649 00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:02,319 Speaker 1: my interactions with the dw R is, like I said 650 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:04,520 Speaker 1: in the podcast, initially they agreed to an interview and 651 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:09,279 Speaker 1: then they backed out there. They didn't share a lot 652 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:13,000 Speaker 1: of information about the evidence like the cigarette butt, and 653 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:15,320 Speaker 1: they said that all of this was to protect the 654 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,040 Speaker 1: integrity of the case. As a as a formal law 655 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 1: enforcement officer, can you break that down a little bit 656 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,320 Speaker 1: for us, because for for a layman like myself, I 657 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 1: don't I don't quite understand why sharing a little bit 658 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,360 Speaker 1: more information to help get the word out about this 659 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 1: case would would damage it, especially having not been solved 660 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,399 Speaker 1: for so long. Could could you help me understand kind 661 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:46,160 Speaker 1: of the the practical negative consequences of them sharing too 662 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:47,320 Speaker 1: much information. 663 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,960 Speaker 2: In something like this. Knowledge is power. 664 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,840 Speaker 7: I can't tell you how many times, And there's been 665 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:59,680 Speaker 7: some famous cases of people confessing two different things, different 666 00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:05,920 Speaker 7: crimes that were totally you know, uh, made up lies 667 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,520 Speaker 7: from the beginning because that when asked certain details about 668 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:11,400 Speaker 7: the case, they couldn't give them, or they gave the 669 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:16,640 Speaker 7: wrong details. And it's just it's the It takes the 670 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:22,800 Speaker 7: investigators priorities away from investigating something that could be legitimate, 671 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 7: to go down the rabbit hole of chasing ghost and 672 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 7: something that's that's incorrect. So keeping as much critical, critical 673 00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 7: crucial evidence in a closed area it all or in 674 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:45,840 Speaker 7: a box where it's not subject to public information, it 675 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:51,239 Speaker 7: keeps the it keeps the the power I guess on 676 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:55,080 Speaker 7: the side of the investigators to be able to go 677 00:42:55,440 --> 00:43:00,200 Speaker 7: after a certain if they laid everything out there, you know, 678 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,000 Speaker 7: we've got fingerprints, or we've got DNA, or we've got 679 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:07,600 Speaker 7: this or got that, anything that could be construed by 680 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:12,399 Speaker 7: the suspect even you know, we've got a hole, we've 681 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:16,040 Speaker 7: got the rifle hole that fired the shots. So as 682 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,200 Speaker 7: soon as we find the right suspect, we're going to 683 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,520 Speaker 7: match this hole with that rifle. Well, if that rifle 684 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,520 Speaker 7: is gone forever, you know, he gets rid of that rifle, 685 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:27,960 Speaker 7: there's no way to connect it. So and these are 686 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:32,360 Speaker 7: very arbitrary and things that I'm that I'm giving you, 687 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:36,560 Speaker 7: But to keep portions of the evidence and the. 688 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:39,480 Speaker 2: Things that they have in the. 689 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:45,080 Speaker 7: Investigation private is crucial a lot of times in solving 690 00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,640 Speaker 7: the case. That's why that they would play those cards 691 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,120 Speaker 7: very close to their to their chest. 692 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,600 Speaker 1: Because maybe whoever did it, or the family of whoever 693 00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:59,640 Speaker 1: did it could take actions that would, like you say, 694 00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:04,160 Speaker 1: with the get rid of the rifle, that would undermine 695 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:05,360 Speaker 1: the evidence that. 696 00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:07,960 Speaker 2: They have absolutely m hmm. 697 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:10,480 Speaker 1: Can you tell me a little bit about because I 698 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:14,920 Speaker 1: would have asked this to the d w R. But 699 00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:18,360 Speaker 1: I know you've had this experience of you're investigating a 700 00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:23,600 Speaker 1: case and you're being criticized by the family of the victim, 701 00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:25,920 Speaker 1: by the friends of the victim for not doing enough. 702 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 1: Can you tell me a little bit about what that's like. 703 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:32,920 Speaker 7: I've got one you know, you and I talked earlier 704 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:37,960 Speaker 7: about this. I've got one unsolved homicide in my career. 705 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:42,320 Speaker 7: It's the only copy of a case file that I 706 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:48,840 Speaker 7: brought home from my career one and it haunts me 707 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,000 Speaker 7: to this day. And I know who did it. We 708 00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:56,240 Speaker 7: know who did it. We just never got the physical 709 00:44:56,520 --> 00:45:00,279 Speaker 7: evidence to put them to get them arrested for it. 710 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:02,480 Speaker 7: And here's the thing that you got to think about. 711 00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:07,160 Speaker 7: Once you arrest somebody, if you have enough to arrest 712 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:09,320 Speaker 7: them but not enough to convict them, and you'd go 713 00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,880 Speaker 7: take them to trial on the chance that you might 714 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,200 Speaker 7: get them convicted, and they get found guilty, that's it. 715 00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:18,480 Speaker 7: That was your swing. You don't get another chance. That's 716 00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:22,319 Speaker 7: the end of it. There are no other tribes, so. 717 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:24,360 Speaker 2: There is. 718 00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:29,680 Speaker 7: In my thirty plus years of being a police officer, 719 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:34,919 Speaker 7: I've never worked with any investigations, any investigation, or any 720 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:38,919 Speaker 7: department where solving a case was not their number one goal. 721 00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:45,279 Speaker 7: Being closed mouth about how the investigation is going, and 722 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:49,960 Speaker 7: the tactics that you have to use, and the pride 723 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,360 Speaker 7: that you have to swallow when you're accused of not 724 00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:56,080 Speaker 7: doing enough. It's tough, man, It's tough, but you know, 725 00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,520 Speaker 7: we understand and I understand that that's coming from a 726 00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:03,520 Speaker 7: place of emotion because these people have had a great loss. 727 00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:04,240 Speaker 2: And they want justice. 728 00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,520 Speaker 7: In my experience, there has never been anyone that won't 729 00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:12,120 Speaker 7: adjust it for justice for a family anymore than the 730 00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:13,520 Speaker 7: folks investigating the case. 731 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,440 Speaker 2: And it's it's just it's part of it. 732 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,279 Speaker 7: It's part of the things that police officers deal with, 733 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:25,080 Speaker 7: and I'm glad to talk about it now because it's 734 00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:25,640 Speaker 7: a struggle. 735 00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:27,359 Speaker 2: It's a hard thing to do, it's a hard thing 736 00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:27,920 Speaker 2: to live with. 737 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:30,640 Speaker 7: It's not something that I could go to work for 738 00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:33,399 Speaker 7: eight or nine or ten hours a day and leave 739 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,359 Speaker 7: at the office and go home, because when I went home, 740 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:42,520 Speaker 7: I was with my wife and my family. Somebody wasn't 741 00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:46,760 Speaker 7: going home to their wife, the victim, or their husband, 742 00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:51,320 Speaker 7: or their father or mother. And that weighed on me heavily, 743 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,880 Speaker 7: and it weighs on I'm sure it weighs on these folks. 744 00:46:56,239 --> 00:47:00,480 Speaker 7: And I can assure you that there's no great joy 745 00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:03,080 Speaker 7: than to be able to call someone or go and 746 00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,839 Speaker 7: see them and tell them, Look, it ain't gonna bring 747 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:10,239 Speaker 7: the victim back, but we found who did it, and 748 00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:14,560 Speaker 7: they're gonna, you know, they're gonna pay so it's a. 749 00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:18,799 Speaker 2: It's a job that I volunteered for. I wasn't made 750 00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:19,120 Speaker 2: to do it. 751 00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:21,440 Speaker 7: I'm not asking for sympthy and I'm not giving sympty 752 00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:24,200 Speaker 7: to these guys. But I can understand where they're coming from, 753 00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,560 Speaker 7: and it's just a it's just another It's a pretty 754 00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:30,440 Speaker 7: tough road to hoe until you get somebody arrested and 755 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:31,080 Speaker 7: get them gone. 756 00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:33,160 Speaker 2: But that's that's their job, and that's what they're there for. 757 00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,760 Speaker 1: Thanks, Brent, I really appreciate you coming on and answering 758 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:38,759 Speaker 1: some of these questions for us. 759 00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:39,560 Speaker 2: You bet man. 760 00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:42,399 Speaker 7: Good luck to these guys, and I appreciate what you're doing, 761 00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:48,919 Speaker 7: bringing bringing light to something. Maybe another obviously deserves another look, 762 00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:52,719 Speaker 7: and I hope we get this thing to fruition. I'll 763 00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:54,360 Speaker 7: be I'll be right here with you when you do it. 764 00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,479 Speaker 2: Part five. What's next? 765 00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:08,279 Speaker 1: As with many cold cases, David's death may not be 766 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:13,919 Speaker 1: solved unless someone who knows something comes forward. At least 767 00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,720 Speaker 1: that's what a DWR agent told Kenny. 768 00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,879 Speaker 3: He says, just gonna have to wait for somebody's wife 769 00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:21,520 Speaker 3: to get mayn. 770 00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:25,960 Speaker 1: In the interest of keeping this show semi family friendly, 771 00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:30,440 Speaker 1: we can't air Kenny's response to that comment. But you 772 00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:34,480 Speaker 1: can imagine it's a frustrating place for the family to be, 773 00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:40,200 Speaker 1: especially when you think the DWR hasn't done enough. But 774 00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:43,160 Speaker 1: it may be true that the only way this case 775 00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,960 Speaker 1: will ever be solved is if someone's wife gets mad, 776 00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:52,320 Speaker 1: or someone's grandchild learns the truth, or someone's neighbor finally 777 00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:56,480 Speaker 1: does the right thing. There isn't any more physical evidence 778 00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,080 Speaker 1: that can be collected from the crime scene. It's been 779 00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:02,640 Speaker 1: nearly twenty two years since David was murdered, and while 780 00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:06,600 Speaker 1: time might heal all wounds, it also cloud's memory and 781 00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:09,919 Speaker 1: dulls whatever moral compass the killer may have once had. 782 00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:13,960 Speaker 1: There was at one point at thirty six thousand dollars 783 00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:17,760 Speaker 1: reward for information leading to the conviction of the killer, 784 00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:22,520 Speaker 1: but that's no longer on the table. David's kids say 785 00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:27,279 Speaker 1: their father always encouraged them to follow their consciences, to 786 00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:32,120 Speaker 1: tell the truth. Those three kids are now grown with 787 00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:35,560 Speaker 1: kids of their own, but they've had to live for 788 00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:40,640 Speaker 1: the last twenty years wondering what happened to their dad. Now, 789 00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:44,800 Speaker 1: their only request is that whoever did this, or whoever 790 00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:49,960 Speaker 1: knows who did this, follow their dad's advice. Listen to 791 00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:50,760 Speaker 1: your conscience. 792 00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:53,759 Speaker 2: Do what's right. 793 00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:56,880 Speaker 1: That's what Tammy said too, when I asked her what 794 00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:59,920 Speaker 1: she'd say to the person responsible for killing her husband. 795 00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:04,960 Speaker 6: I just wish that they would come forward say something. 796 00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:08,919 Speaker 6: I mean, they've put us through hell. Have a soul 797 00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:12,239 Speaker 6: man come out and say something. I don't think they 798 00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:16,520 Speaker 6: did it on purpose, but come forward and say something. 799 00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:18,839 Speaker 6: Don't put the family through all this in all these 800 00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:23,160 Speaker 6: years just not knowing. You know, I hope nobody ever 801 00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:25,480 Speaker 6: has to go through what we had to go through. 802 00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:28,879 Speaker 1: If you, or anyone you know has any information about 803 00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:32,040 Speaker 1: this incident, the DWR asks that you call their anonymous 804 00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:37,040 Speaker 1: tip line at one eight hundred two three seven five 805 00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,719 Speaker 1: seven one two. You can also text your tip to 806 00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:42,720 Speaker 1: eight four seven four one one, or send an email 807 00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:49,360 Speaker 1: to wild Crime at DWR dot Virginia dot gov. The 808 00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:53,200 Speaker 1: murder took place in Virginia's Rockbridge County on April twelfth, 809 00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:57,480 Speaker 1: two thousand and three, the opening day of spring gobbler season.