1
00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,200
Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Mollie John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

2
00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,160
Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

3
00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:08,760
Speaker 1: today's best minds.

4
00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:12,840
Speaker 2: And South Dakota Governor Christy nom has apparently threatened to

5
00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:16,760
Speaker 2: kill Joe Biden's dog commander. What are we doing here?

6
00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:17,160
Speaker 3: People?

7
00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:19,560
Speaker 2: We have a star studded show today though see it.

8
00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:22,360
Speaker 2: Ed's for Reid Zachariah Stopspy to talk his new book,

9
00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,880
Speaker 2: Age of Revolutions, Progress and Backlash from sixteen hundred to

10
00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,280
Speaker 2: the President. Then we'll talk tomsnbc's Ali Velshie about his

11
00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:32,800
Speaker 2: new book Small Acts of Courage, a Legacy of Endurance,

12
00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:35,879
Speaker 2: and the fight for democracy. But first we have the

13
00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,879
Speaker 2: host of the Enemy's List, the ligod projects owed Rick Wilson.

14
00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:46,159
Speaker 1: Welcome to Fast Politics. You're a friend of mine, Rick Wilson.

15
00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,240
Speaker 4: Mollie Jong Fast, I'm delighted to join you once again.

16
00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,960
Speaker 1: Christinome. Perhaps you remember her from Killing a.

17
00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,600
Speaker 4: Puppy, noted star of the show Killing My Innocent Puppy,

18
00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,400
Speaker 4: also the star of the nineteen nine sitcom what does

19
00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:02,320
Speaker 4: Corey taste like?

20
00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:09,840
Speaker 3: Oh talk, you loved it?

21
00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,440
Speaker 4: Don't even play lie?

22
00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:14,200
Speaker 5: Yeah?

23
00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:14,800
Speaker 4: All right?

24
00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:17,959
Speaker 3: Anyway, moving on, she killed a dog in a goat.

25
00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:22,040
Speaker 1: She defended herself by saying, the fourteen month old dog

26
00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:23,600
Speaker 1: is not a puppy.

27
00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:25,080
Speaker 5: I feel like.

28
00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,279
Speaker 3: When you're defending killing a puppy, you're losing.

29
00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,560
Speaker 4: My thought here is twofold. One, when you're defending killing

30
00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,560
Speaker 4: a puppy, you are definitely losing. And the second is,

31
00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:39,759
Speaker 4: don't try your bullshit among other people. And I will

32
00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,040
Speaker 4: say this people from the left and the right who

33
00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:46,080
Speaker 4: actually know about hunting and hunting dogs myself included, don't

34
00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,240
Speaker 4: try your bullshit christinome of trying to say, oh, only

35
00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,360
Speaker 4: I understand the country, No, honey, that ain't it.

36
00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:55,080
Speaker 1: But also let us pause for a moment and talk

37
00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:59,280
Speaker 1: about how she then said she killed three horses. Now

38
00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:04,200
Speaker 1: I have three dogs, one of whom is ten thousand

39
00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:04,920
Speaker 1: years old.

40
00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:07,880
Speaker 4: I've met your ancient the rhyme of the ancient, the

41
00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:08,680
Speaker 4: ancient hound.

42
00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:10,240
Speaker 3: It's Spartacus.

43
00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:14,200
Speaker 1: Spartaas has half a liver, he has a mouthful of

44
00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:16,280
Speaker 1: rotting teeth, and he is in continent.

45
00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:19,160
Speaker 4: No dream date, ladies, it's spartacast.

46
00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,880
Speaker 1: But Spartacus is killing it and we don't put amal.

47
00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:25,720
Speaker 4: Bartacus is living his best life right.

48
00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:29,119
Speaker 1: He is now on a really good arthritis medicine that's

49
00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,200
Speaker 1: really making him do much better. But I'm just saying

50
00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:34,400
Speaker 1: she killed three horses because she said they had arthritis,

51
00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:36,880
Speaker 1: Like she killed three horses because she didn't want to

52
00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:37,760
Speaker 1: pay for the food.

53
00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,560
Speaker 4: Okay, let me go back on this one more time, because,

54
00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:44,800
Speaker 4: as you know, in addition to having owned many hunting dogs,

55
00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:51,640
Speaker 4: I have also owned many horses, many fucking horses, many, many, many,

56
00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:52,320
Speaker 4: many horses.

57
00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,000
Speaker 1: What happens is they get too old to ride, and

58
00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,480
Speaker 1: you take care of them because you're not a total sociopath.

59
00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,600
Speaker 4: Then you literally send them out to somebody's farm and

60
00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:05,440
Speaker 4: they graze in a field until they drop down dead. Okay,

61
00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:07,959
Speaker 4: that's a good life for a horse. And by the way,

62
00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:10,800
Speaker 4: we had a horse lived to thirty three years old.

63
00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,480
Speaker 4: Twenty five is not ancient for a horse. She's completely

64
00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:19,720
Speaker 4: full of crap, this woman. She irritates me because as

65
00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,519
Speaker 4: somebody who treats animals ethically and I mean all my

66
00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,919
Speaker 4: bullshit kidding aside right now, it's something I really care

67
00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,720
Speaker 4: about and I really believe in of treating animals ethically

68
00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:34,240
Speaker 4: and well, especially when they are in service to you,

69
00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:38,640
Speaker 4: as dogs or horses are, and so her cavalier, bullshit,

70
00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,160
Speaker 4: her lies about it. The combination of all of this

71
00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,320
Speaker 4: garbage from her Here's the amazing part. This was something

72
00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:47,520
Speaker 4: that brought left and right together in this country like

73
00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:53,560
Speaker 4: nothing I've ever seen what You've got Rick Wilson and

74
00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,240
Speaker 4: Liz Cheney on the same side of an argument as

75
00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:57,720
Speaker 4: cat Turd and Laura Lumer.

76
00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,040
Speaker 1: The cat Turd killed the dog too, well, I think

77
00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:02,320
Speaker 1: he drove over him.

78
00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,360
Speaker 4: Right, I'm going to say, this cat Turn Foster's dogs.

79
00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,000
Speaker 3: Oh so then who did he kill? Cat Turn?

80
00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:10,920
Speaker 4: He ran over one of his dogs, apparently by accident,

81
00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:13,120
Speaker 4: which I've never done. But okay, look it happens to.

82
00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,240
Speaker 3: People, all right, Yeah, I guess.

83
00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:17,919
Speaker 4: But for the love of God, if an issue unifies

84
00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:21,719
Speaker 4: Americans in such a way that it crosses every single

85
00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:26,240
Speaker 4: dividing line between the parties, give it up, Christy, and

86
00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,400
Speaker 4: now the peace out this morning in Politico or out

87
00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:33,320
Speaker 4: Friday morning sees me in Politico. Six separate Trump aids

88
00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:36,600
Speaker 4: were like, no, she's done, it's over. We only need

89
00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:38,760
Speaker 4: one person to appeld to the freak show.

90
00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,800
Speaker 1: My favorite part of that whole story is when she

91
00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:49,520
Speaker 1: said that she had met Kim Jong un in twenty fourteen, which.

92
00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:51,200
Speaker 3: Has been easily debunked.

93
00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,720
Speaker 1: Playbook actually led with the story of all the other

94
00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,160
Speaker 1: lies in this book. Here's the thing about these books.

95
00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,680
Speaker 1: Politicians write incredibly boring books. They don't and write them,

96
00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,800
Speaker 1: and they likely don't read them. But somehow Christy No

97
00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:07,480
Speaker 1: managed to not be able to do that. The woman,

98
00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:09,880
Speaker 1: I've said it before, I'll say it again. She makes

99
00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:17,080
Speaker 1: Mitt Romney look like James Harriet. So let's talk for

100
00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:21,279
Speaker 1: a minute about what's happening with the Trump trial. We

101
00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,120
Speaker 1: are in day ten thousand, No, we're actually only like

102
00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:25,880
Speaker 1: eleven days into it, right.

103
00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:30,400
Speaker 4: Where Donald Trump feels a combination of desire and revulsion

104
00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:35,680
Speaker 4: watching Hopepicks testify against him, struggling between his incontinence and

105
00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:39,400
Speaker 4: his erectile dysfunction, wondering which will cause him more distress

106
00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,240
Speaker 4: as she testifies in her low, sultry voice, her penetrating

107
00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:45,520
Speaker 4: gaze staring directly at him.

108
00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:48,600
Speaker 3: Yes, we're into Pete Rick Wilson here.

109
00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,279
Speaker 4: Take me, Donald, mount me and use me.

110
00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:53,520
Speaker 5: O Jesus savage beast right.

111
00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,320
Speaker 3: So, oh my god.

112
00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:59,480
Speaker 4: You guys, I'm not going to stop.

113
00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:04,320
Speaker 3: I'm aware we do this, we know you anyway. So

114
00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:05,919
Speaker 3: Hopex is testifying.

115
00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,479
Speaker 1: I mean, so far, we're two weeks into this fucking thing,

116
00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:14,720
Speaker 1: and it seems to me like every single day has

117
00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:16,000
Speaker 1: been bad for Donald Trump.

118
00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,000
Speaker 4: It seems like Trump is having an entire sort of

119
00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:23,240
Speaker 4: broken and confused approach here. I mean, look, you saw

120
00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,000
Speaker 4: last week he started to talk to Todd Blanche in

121
00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,880
Speaker 4: the way that he talks to anyone he's about to fire. You, suck,

122
00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,040
Speaker 4: You're not aggressive enough, you don't defend me the right way,

123
00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,360
Speaker 4: you don't do what I want you to do. And

124
00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,679
Speaker 4: more importantly, he went and said to Todd Blanche, according

125
00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:39,760
Speaker 4: to some of the reporting last week, I don't pay

126
00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,080
Speaker 4: bills for lawyers that don't do the job for me,

127
00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,839
Speaker 4: which is to say, Todd Blanche, you best start getting

128
00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,440
Speaker 4: that shit in cash, brother, because those checks are going

129
00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:50,359
Speaker 4: to get canceled.

130
00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,720
Speaker 1: And we saw Maggie wrote a piece about how Trump

131
00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:56,120
Speaker 1: was not happy with Todd Blanche.

132
00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,200
Speaker 3: So that's right, definitely coming around.

133
00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,440
Speaker 1: And also so the judge told Todd Blanche that he

134
00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,039
Speaker 1: was losing all credibility. I mean, I feel like that's

135
00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,960
Speaker 1: not what you judge to tell you. I'm no lawyer,

136
00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,360
Speaker 1: but I'm going to guess that that was not so good.

137
00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,840
Speaker 4: Neither am I But I'm thinking that when the lawyer

138
00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,160
Speaker 4: reprimands you, not in front of the jury, luckily for him.

139
00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,400
Speaker 4: But I'm thinking when the judge reprimands an attorney for

140
00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,800
Speaker 4: the defense, they might want to tell their client, do

141
00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:27,680
Speaker 4: me a favor. Donald such a pie hole, no more talking.

142
00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,160
Speaker 3: I mean, it's just kind of amazing.

143
00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,920
Speaker 1: So Pepper did a pretty meticulous job laying out the story.

144
00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:40,320
Speaker 1: Still likes Trump, No crazy emotional drama there. He showed

145
00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:42,160
Speaker 1: that he did in fact do catch and kill and

146
00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:44,720
Speaker 1: that he in fact knew that he was running a

147
00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:49,080
Speaker 1: foul of campaign finance violations because he talked to his right.

148
00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,840
Speaker 4: Because his own attorneys were telling him this ain't great. Yeah,

149
00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:53,600
Speaker 4: this ain't it.

150
00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:54,000
Speaker 5: Chief.

151
00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,000
Speaker 4: But look, I mean, I think what we've seen right now,

152
00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,480
Speaker 4: and I think we're going to see this pretty constantly,

153
00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,680
Speaker 4: is that so far none of these witnesses have exactly

154
00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,520
Speaker 4: been great for Donald Trump. No, they're not exactly like

155
00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,760
Speaker 4: lighting up the world with a robust set of facts

156
00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,440
Speaker 4: that Trump can refute easily. And what we are going

157
00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,080
Speaker 4: to also see AND's telling you this in the next

158
00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:17,680
Speaker 4: in the next few days, at some point, Trump will

159
00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,000
Speaker 4: wake up from his nap time, and he at some

160
00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,560
Speaker 4: point he will say something in the courtroom like I'll testify,

161
00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,680
Speaker 4: I'll go on the stand, and at that moment the

162
00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,640
Speaker 4: world begins to tear itself apart for Donald Trump, and

163
00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,400
Speaker 4: there's nothing but bad outcomes for Donald Trump at that point.

164
00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:37,440
Speaker 1: Right, So we have hope x is on Friday, and

165
00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:39,520
Speaker 1: then next week we're going to have But I want

166
00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:41,400
Speaker 1: to point out, like, here we are on this trial

167
00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:45,520
Speaker 1: and so far we have still not had Stormy Daniels

168
00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:49,600
Speaker 1: or Michael Cohen, and it doesn't matter because we've really

169
00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:51,080
Speaker 1: seen them set the table.

170
00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,640
Speaker 4: I think that the most interesting strategic decision the prosecution

171
00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:58,560
Speaker 4: has made so far is to bring in people who

172
00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:02,400
Speaker 4: win Stormy and Michael Cohen come up to the stand

173
00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:06,880
Speaker 4: to testify. All of the attacks that Trump is going

174
00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,319
Speaker 4: to make on them have already been kind of mitigated

175
00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,960
Speaker 4: by other fact witnesses saying what Michael is about to

176
00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,160
Speaker 4: tell you is true essentially, and what Stormy is about

177
00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,839
Speaker 4: to tell you is true essentially. And so you can

178
00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:20,920
Speaker 4: call them bad witnesses, you can say everything you want

179
00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:24,720
Speaker 4: about Michael or Stormy, but those folks like David Pecker

180
00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:28,199
Speaker 4: and the other lawyers and everybody else and Hope Hicks.

181
00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,520
Speaker 4: They're going to go in there and basically end up

182
00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,120
Speaker 4: laying a defensive barrier down for all the attacks that

183
00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,760
Speaker 4: are coming on Cohen. I will tell you I predict

184
00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:38,800
Speaker 4: next week you're going to see stuff on Fox like

185
00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:43,600
Speaker 4: Michael Cohen History's Greatest Monster, and Stormy Daniels the Horror

186
00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:46,440
Speaker 4: of Babylon. And I have seen a sort of bubbling

187
00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,160
Speaker 4: up in the right word media like, well, Donald Trump,

188
00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,160
Speaker 4: so what if he did? It's just his virility, you know,

189
00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:54,800
Speaker 4: and he's a man's man. And yet on the other hand,

190
00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:57,680
Speaker 4: anybody else would be would be slaughtered for the same

191
00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:01,960
Speaker 4: kind of stuff. It's a moment I think where Trump

192
00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,679
Speaker 4: expects a different trial than he's getting. Yeah, and the

193
00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,400
Speaker 4: nine thousand dollars in contempt charges, you know, Trump can

194
00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:10,720
Speaker 4: raise that in thirty seconds with some you know email

195
00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,760
Speaker 4: to the mooks out there. But the thought when the

196
00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,360
Speaker 4: judge basically said, okay, you could be sent to jail

197
00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:18,439
Speaker 4: and no, you know what, it won't be my fantasy

198
00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:20,960
Speaker 4: of Donald Trump being admitted to rikers and wanting to

199
00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,960
Speaker 4: bleach himself forever and ever after that that would be

200
00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,280
Speaker 4: his experience. He could not survive Rikers. But the idea

201
00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,200
Speaker 4: of Trump even going to mcc or spending a night

202
00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,160
Speaker 4: in any other jail cell in New York without his phone,

203
00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:36,079
Speaker 4: without his hairspray, without his makeup, I think it would

204
00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:39,640
Speaker 4: alter his perspective rather swiftly and dramatically.

205
00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:44,920
Speaker 1: What's happening here is that he has been sort of listening,

206
00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:49,640
Speaker 1: Like he did delete those truths yeah on truth Social.

207
00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:50,319
Speaker 3: When he wrote them.

208
00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,800
Speaker 1: So I think he gets the stakes here, which is

209
00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,719
Speaker 1: interesting because like so much of Trump is this shamelessness

210
00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:02,480
Speaker 1: and this inability to like behave the way everyone else behaves.

211
00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,000
Speaker 1: But like clearly that some of that's an act, right, No,

212
00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:06,760
Speaker 1: I think you're.

213
00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:08,960
Speaker 4: Right, some of it it's an act, and the idea

214
00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,080
Speaker 4: that he's going to get away with every transgressive thing

215
00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,240
Speaker 4: he ever wants to do. And I will say this,

216
00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:15,439
Speaker 4: I'm a god. I'm going to sound like I'm defending

217
00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,160
Speaker 4: Donald Trump, but I'm really not. I think anybody who's

218
00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:22,800
Speaker 4: been president becomes psychologically accustomed to a certain degree of deference, right.

219
00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:25,800
Speaker 4: But in Trump's case, he came in there with a

220
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,640
Speaker 4: gigantic level of sociopathic ego driven wild hair.

221
00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:31,680
Speaker 3: I still don't hear you defending him.

222
00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,920
Speaker 4: Continue, yes, yes, well, okay, good, I'm glad. I'm glad.

223
00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:36,640
Speaker 4: It doesn't sound like I'm defending him, because I'm really not.

224
00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,280
Speaker 4: But in his case, having been president and thinking he's

225
00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:42,599
Speaker 4: also a god who is immune to the rules of

226
00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:44,640
Speaker 4: the rest of society, all of it, you end up

227
00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:47,000
Speaker 4: with this attitude that how can this be happening to me?

228
00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,360
Speaker 4: You can't tell me to shut up? And yet the

229
00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:53,120
Speaker 4: judge has slowly sort of wound down the freedom and

230
00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,320
Speaker 4: the latitude Trump has felt to ass off in court

231
00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:58,520
Speaker 4: as the weeks have gone on. I think it's really

232
00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:02,640
Speaker 4: kind of fascinating that that even his own people around him,

233
00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:04,960
Speaker 4: not just his lawyers, but his fans are like, Okay,

234
00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:06,720
Speaker 4: you know what if he did go to jail overnight,

235
00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:09,120
Speaker 4: what would happen? What does happen if he doesn't have

236
00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:11,960
Speaker 4: his fresh bespoke depends every morning.

237
00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,599
Speaker 1: But it's also a question of he is being held accountable.

238
00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,760
Speaker 1: And the thing that I hate so much and think

239
00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:21,640
Speaker 1: is so bad is when people in pundit world say like,

240
00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:23,920
Speaker 1: if you do this, he will fundraise off of it,

241
00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:26,320
Speaker 1: or if you do this, it will book this right,

242
00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,640
Speaker 1: and like, here's the thing is like here's a trial,

243
00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:33,960
Speaker 1: a criminal trial. It's going on. Nothing is happening. Everything

244
00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:38,000
Speaker 1: is fine. There's no craziness at the court. There's barely

245
00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:38,680
Speaker 1: anyone there.

246
00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:39,320
Speaker 4: You know.

247
00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:41,600
Speaker 3: The only member of his family you could get there.

248
00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:43,320
Speaker 4: Was Eric was slow. Eric.

249
00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:44,520
Speaker 5: Yeah right. You know.

250
00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,720
Speaker 3: People saying, well, he's going to do three dimensional chests. No,

251
00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:50,959
Speaker 3: he's not. He does not do three dimensional chess.

252
00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:53,640
Speaker 4: Donald Trump couldn't make a three dimensional castle out of

253
00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,760
Speaker 4: his own feces. He's not that smart when it comes

254
00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:00,559
Speaker 4: to the a world that isn't mediated through social media

255
00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:04,960
Speaker 4: platforms or whatever whatever you know, fantasy bubble he's lived

256
00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,840
Speaker 4: in for a long time. He's he's a guy who's

257
00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:12,000
Speaker 4: a broken brained old man right now facing actual criminal

258
00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,920
Speaker 4: charges in a court of law for crimes. Yeah, for

259
00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,920
Speaker 4: real crimes. Yeah, the actual criming that is involved is

260
00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:25,160
Speaker 4: not something made up by the deep state or whatever.

261
00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:27,720
Speaker 4: He's not having a good time in this, and I'm

262
00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,400
Speaker 4: obviously I'm here for that because I want him to

263
00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:32,160
Speaker 4: be held accountable as everyone should.

264
00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:34,920
Speaker 1: So as we watch this, I mean, I think it

265
00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:36,559
Speaker 1: should be weirdly comforting.

266
00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:36,880
Speaker 3: You know.

267
00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:39,520
Speaker 1: I often have this conversation with people like, are the

268
00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,400
Speaker 1: guardrails holding. That's like a favorite conversation.

269
00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:43,480
Speaker 3: And you know, I.

270
00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:45,760
Speaker 1: Believe, like if you look at the Supreme Court, in

271
00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:47,320
Speaker 1: this Supreme Court, they're not right.

272
00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:49,880
Speaker 3: I mean, these guys are in the tank for Donald Trump.

273
00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:50,280
Speaker 4: Oh for sure.

274
00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:50,640
Speaker 3: Right.

275
00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:52,760
Speaker 1: But if you look at if you sort of pull

276
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,480
Speaker 1: back and you look at like this criminal case, which

277
00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:59,640
Speaker 1: is something like straight out of Tom Wolf, really the

278
00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:03,880
Speaker 1: law is holding and so it is being held accountable.

279
00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,360
Speaker 4: You know what, It's funny you mentioned Tom Wolf because

280
00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:10,160
Speaker 4: a friend of mine just just this morning texted me

281
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,400
Speaker 4: that Tom Wolf would have loved this trial so much.

282
00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:18,040
Speaker 4: He would have gone absolutely crazy about this thing and

283
00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:22,440
Speaker 4: would have done the whole Charlie Croker style story. Because really,

284
00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:24,680
Speaker 4: when you get right down to it, this is a

285
00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,560
Speaker 4: tremendously great New York story. Yeah, I mean it is

286
00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:31,000
Speaker 4: a tremendously great New York story. Also, I have a question.

287
00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,320
Speaker 4: I know I should be the expert on this. Why

288
00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,640
Speaker 4: is Rudy dressing increasingly like the joker?

289
00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:37,600
Speaker 3: I haven't seen Rudy lately.

290
00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,600
Speaker 4: Oh, Rudy was wearing like a purple shirt and a

291
00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:41,920
Speaker 4: yellow tie.

292
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,360
Speaker 3: You used to be a member of Rudy's inner circle.

293
00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:46,400
Speaker 4: I did, indeed do we know what's.

294
00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,520
Speaker 3: Happening with Rudy. Do you have any uproots?

295
00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:50,960
Speaker 4: He had to go back to bankruptcy court again. From

296
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:52,880
Speaker 4: what I heard, I don't know what The outcome was.

297
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,880
Speaker 3: Always a great song, right.

298
00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:58,880
Speaker 4: You have to go back to bankruptcy court again.

299
00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,840
Speaker 1: No, I do think you have a really good and

300
00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,760
Speaker 1: salient point here, which is that there is a sense

301
00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:14,480
Speaker 1: in which Trump World, Wow, maybe he pulls polling well again,

302
00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:18,200
Speaker 1: polls whatever Trump World is in itself really falling the

303
00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:18,840
Speaker 1: fuck apart.

304
00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:23,920
Speaker 4: Trump World internally is highly chaotic right now. And I

305
00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:26,360
Speaker 4: can tell you why. I know it's highly chaotic because

306
00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,240
Speaker 4: there's an old rule about campaigns and about white houses.

307
00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:34,560
Speaker 4: Bad campaigns leak, Good campaigns leak on purpose. They're just leaking. Now.

308
00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,560
Speaker 4: There's a lot of chatter coming out of Trump World. Now.

309
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,760
Speaker 4: They really need to stop trusting the idea that we're

310
00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:43,920
Speaker 4: paying you a lot of money to run X or

311
00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,120
Speaker 4: y area of the campaign and there you're going to

312
00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,200
Speaker 4: be loyal. People are already trying to save their own

313
00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,120
Speaker 4: asses and protect themselves because I'm hearing that the need

314
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,720
Speaker 4: for money to move money around and get money to

315
00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,600
Speaker 4: Trump for both the legal defense and otherwise is putting

316
00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:02,920
Speaker 4: a colossal skin on their fundraising, and even the big

317
00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:04,280
Speaker 4: guys who are like, I'm going to come back and

318
00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:08,120
Speaker 4: help Trump, there are even questions coming from those guys like, yeah, listen,

319
00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,080
Speaker 4: I want this to go to actually do something, right,

320
00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,160
Speaker 4: You're gonna do something with this money. It's not just

321
00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:13,520
Speaker 4: for the lawyers, right.

322
00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:17,000
Speaker 3: Right, But it is just for lawyers, right, of.

323
00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,200
Speaker 4: Course it is. It's all it is. It's just for

324
00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,120
Speaker 4: the lawyers. It's all for Trump.

325
00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:23,520
Speaker 3: And you think this is going to affect the campaign.

326
00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,240
Speaker 4: I think it is affecting the campaign right now. And

327
00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,920
Speaker 4: look they are doing. They're doing a brilliant job right now.

328
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,320
Speaker 4: And so button peak too early, and his polls are

329
00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:33,640
Speaker 4: and they're throwing a lot of these poles out there

330
00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:36,280
Speaker 4: that are fairly low quality surveys, right.

331
00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,240
Speaker 3: They're definitely juicing the numbers.

332
00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:40,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, Oh, they're flooding the zone so that the

333
00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,160
Speaker 4: real clear average and the five point thirty eight average

334
00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,280
Speaker 4: and all that other stuff. They're flooding the zone so

335
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,680
Speaker 4: that those things will look as if you know, Trump

336
00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:50,640
Speaker 4: is miles ahead in all these states.

337
00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:55,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that for sure is true. Jesus Rick Wilson.

338
00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,320
Speaker 3: Thank you, Molly, Jong, Fast.

339
00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,359
Speaker 1: Spring is here, and I bet you are trying to

340
00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:09,000
Speaker 1: look fashionable, So why not pick up some fashionable all

341
00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:13,679
Speaker 1: new Fast Politics merchandise. We just opened a news store

342
00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:18,280
Speaker 1: with all new designs just for you. Get t shirts, hoodies, hats,

343
00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:24,080
Speaker 1: and top bags. To grab some, head to fastpolitics dot com.

344
00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,720
Speaker 2: Freed Zachariah is a Washington Post columnist and host of

345
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:32,119
Speaker 2: CNN's GPS and author of Age of Revolutions, Progress and

346
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,640
Speaker 2: Backlash from sixteen hundred to the present.

347
00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,480
Speaker 3: Welcome to Fast Politics for Reid.

348
00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:39,800
Speaker 5: Thanks so much, Molly. Pleasure to be with you.

349
00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,320
Speaker 1: Really excited to have you. So let's talk about this book.

350
00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:45,320
Speaker 1: I always feel like you've written a ton of books.

351
00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,520
Speaker 1: How did you get here? It's sort of like, how

352
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,320
Speaker 1: did you decide to devote a year of your life to.

353
00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:51,399
Speaker 3: This or more?

354
00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,280
Speaker 5: Oh, it was actually almost I mean on and off.

355
00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:55,240
Speaker 5: It's been ten.

356
00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:59,480
Speaker 1: Years, Jesus and someone who has written many books, it's

357
00:17:59,520 --> 00:17:59,960
Speaker 1: a killer.

358
00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:00,560
Speaker 4: Yeah.

359
00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:02,920
Speaker 5: I know. I wrote two books along the way, two

360
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:05,679
Speaker 5: shorter books, but this was the big project that was

361
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,520
Speaker 5: ongoing in the background. But it's a very good question.

362
00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:12,440
Speaker 5: It really began about ten years ago when I started

363
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:16,120
Speaker 5: watching the Tea Party come into being. What I realized

364
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,960
Speaker 5: about the Tea Party was this was something very different

365
00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:23,560
Speaker 5: from normal American politics. Here you had the most hierarchical party,

366
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:28,040
Speaker 5: the Republican Party, being taken over by an insurgency. And

367
00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,560
Speaker 5: there was a wonderful book by theater Scotch Paula Stolard Yale,

368
00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:33,879
Speaker 5: who pointed out in the book that she spent a

369
00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,320
Speaker 5: year basically just hanging out and talking to the Tea

370
00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,960
Speaker 5: Party grassroots. That while it started as an economic thing,

371
00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,359
Speaker 5: you remember, it starts with Rick Santelli on CNBC saying,

372
00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:47,440
Speaker 5: you know, why are we bailing out all these people

373
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,760
Speaker 5: who don't meet their mortgage payments. Let's have a tea party.

374
00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:55,600
Speaker 5: But it actually is animated by all kinds of cultural issues, immigration,

375
00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:01,560
Speaker 5: Obama's birthplace, multiculturally what we would today called the wok Agena.

376
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,240
Speaker 5: And to me what was fascinating is that was not

377
00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:09,600
Speaker 5: the traditional Republican Party platform or message. The Reagan formula,

378
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,119
Speaker 5: if you will, was you know, limited government, low taxes,

379
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,720
Speaker 5: entitlement reforms, spread democracy abroad. These guys were not talking

380
00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,360
Speaker 5: about any of that. They were talking all about cultural

381
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:24,480
Speaker 5: nationalism against multiculturalism. And so I started to think with

382
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,760
Speaker 5: something is happening to politics in America, you know. So

383
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,520
Speaker 5: I signed a book contract actually ten years ago, and

384
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,639
Speaker 5: it was initially called Beyond Left and Right because I

385
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:36,720
Speaker 5: was feeling like this is something different from our normal

386
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,639
Speaker 5: left right over the economy. And as time went on,

387
00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,280
Speaker 5: I felt like I was being proven more and more right.

388
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,000
Speaker 5: You know, we Brexit than you have Trump. And so

389
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:47,480
Speaker 5: it took me a little longer to write, partly because

390
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:49,840
Speaker 5: it felt like I was just getting more and more

391
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:54,520
Speaker 5: material to inform this historical survey, which was really about

392
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,400
Speaker 5: how did we get here? It's the four hundred year

393
00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:59,520
Speaker 5: history of how we got to where we are.

394
00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so much when we're talking about this,

395
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,919
Speaker 1: about how it's such a good point.

396
00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:09,720
Speaker 3: And I actually know the academic you're talking.

397
00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:11,520
Speaker 5: About Theta Scotch board we did.

398
00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:15,040
Speaker 1: We had her on the podcast and she's really brilliant.

399
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,320
Speaker 1: Saying a Yale academic is brilliant not a huge stretch,

400
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:21,239
Speaker 1: but she is really brilliant. And she did talk so

401
00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:27,919
Speaker 1: much about the fundamental underlying notion being so radical. It

402
00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:32,640
Speaker 1: reminds me so much of Susan Faludi's ideas about backlash.

403
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,199
Speaker 1: I mean, isn't that sort of this thesis that you

404
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,320
Speaker 1: have progress and then you have a sort of revolution

405
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,840
Speaker 1: in a backlash or is that not quite the thesis.

406
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,400
Speaker 5: The central thesis here is that whenever you have periods

407
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:49,600
Speaker 5: of very big structural change, and that's for me, revolution

408
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,639
Speaker 5: I'm talking about when it really is upending the old system.

409
00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:58,000
Speaker 5: So for example, the massive expansion of globalization and immigration

410
00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,119
Speaker 5: that's taken place in the last forty years in the

411
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 5: Western world. The massive expansion of the information economy, really

412
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:10,440
Speaker 5: the creation of a new digital economy, the massive expansion

413
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:15,760
Speaker 5: of the rights of women, minorities, gays, all that. You know,

414
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:21,320
Speaker 5: these things have always had a two effects. One is

415
00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,920
Speaker 5: they always produce a backlash, and two they always change

416
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,960
Speaker 5: the politics because the politics has to adapt to all

417
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,720
Speaker 5: these new changes and the backlash. I think what's really

418
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:36,919
Speaker 5: fascinating to me is the backlash tends to be mostly cultural.

419
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,760
Speaker 5: You know, Tony Blair had a very good line. He said,

420
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,439
Speaker 5: you know, one of the central insights I've had in

421
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:46,320
Speaker 5: politics is that when people feel deeply insecure and unnerved,

422
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,639
Speaker 5: they don't move left economically, they move right culture. In

423
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,040
Speaker 5: other words, you know that they start to worry by

424
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,960
Speaker 5: my world is disappearing. I want to go back to

425
00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,240
Speaker 5: when it was, you know, when all this craziness wasn't happening.

426
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,399
Speaker 5: And that is why demogogues like Trump are able to

427
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 5: play on that, because it's what they offer is the

428
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:10,400
Speaker 5: politics of nostalgia, you know, the make America great again.

429
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:12,959
Speaker 5: We're going to take you back to when it was.

430
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,880
Speaker 5: Nicky Haley wants to tweet it wasn't life so simple

431
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,280
Speaker 5: when you were growing up? You know, there's always this

432
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 5: imaginary of course, you think yourself, Nicki Haley grew up

433
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 5: in the seventies, that period of you know, Wardegate, Vietnam, staxlation,

434
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,879
Speaker 5: oil prices, court grupling. I mean, what is she talking about?

435
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 5: But that's always, you know, in our memory, we always

436
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,720
Speaker 5: think back nostalgically to the period when we were young,

437
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 5: and that's the appear yes.

438
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:41,119
Speaker 3: And that is an important point.

439
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 1: I actually just read a book about the rights obsession

440
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:49,400
Speaker 1: with authoritarian governments, which was really really detailed and talked

441
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 1: a lot about how even in the not the seventies,

442
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:58,360
Speaker 1: but earlier times in the twentieth century, we saw conservatives

443
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 1: sort of have a love affair with authoritarian dictators, everyone

444
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 1: from Pinoche to Hitler and you see that right now

445
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 1: with the rights love of Erdulaan. Can you speak to

446
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 1: how that fits into this narrative.

447
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a very interesting point because what we're seeing

448
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 5: come out is a kind of older right. You know,

449
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 5: what we're now realizing is that the Reagan Right was

450
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 5: a much more libertarian, internationalist, free market, free trade right

451
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 5: that took over the Republican Party, but that the core

452
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,639
Speaker 5: of the party in its historical essence is actually not

453
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 5: that it is chauvinist, isolationist, protectionist, and as you say,

454
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 5: somewhat enamored of authoritarianism. And so it's not just you know, Pinochet,

455
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 5: but the right was fascinated by Franco Let's don't forget,

456
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 5: you know, the Spanish Civil War. The writer has always

457
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 5: been fascinated by these kind of strong men who were

458
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 5: able to deliver in some sense. And if you go

459
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 5: back to the thirties, there was a great fascination in

460
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,160
Speaker 5: the right in the early thirties with Mussolini and Hitler,

461
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,199
Speaker 5: and there was a deep isolationism. A lot of the

462
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,159
Speaker 5: isolationism on the right was, you know, we shouldn't be

463
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,160
Speaker 5: thinking about going to war with these guys. They're modernizing

464
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 5: their country. Charles Lindberg was frankly admiring, you know, Lindberg

465
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 5: admired what the Germans were doing. So there has always

466
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,920
Speaker 5: been this deeper right, you know, the kind of cultural

467
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 5: right wing, and in a weird way, we all lost

468
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,400
Speaker 5: track of it because Reagan really did remake the right.

469
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 5: But after the Cold War, that facade or that phase

470
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 5: of right wing politics has withered away. Well we're left

471
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 5: with this Trump in some ways Hawkins back to the

472
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 5: thirties exactly.

473
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 1: I mean, that will make America great again is actually

474
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties slogan of Lindbergh.

475
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 5: Right, well, and certainly America First.

476
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 3: Was right, America First, That's what I mean.

477
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 5: That's where it originated from. And when Trump was told that, interestingly,

478
00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 5: his response was yeah, So you know, in other words,

479
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,920
Speaker 5: I don't mind being associated with the Republicans of the thirties. Well,

480
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,159
Speaker 5: most people forget is even after World War Two, the

481
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 5: Republican Party was still quite isolationist. There was wings of

482
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 5: the party, Vandenberg in the Senate who was an internationalist,

483
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 5: but the core of the party, even after World War Two,

484
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 5: wanted America to come home, no entanglements. Robert Taft, the

485
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 5: leading Republican senator from Ohio, who was the most likely

486
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:31,160
Speaker 5: nominee in the nineteen fifty two presidential campaign, was deeply

487
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 5: opposed to NATO. He goes to see Eisenhower. Eisenhower is

488
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 5: at this point the head of NATO, the supreme Allied

489
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,639
Speaker 5: commander in Brussels. And Robert Taft goes to Brussels and

490
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 5: says to Eisenhower, please don't run for the Republican nomination.

491
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:47,919
Speaker 5: If you do, I don't have a chance. And so

492
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 5: I'm asking you now. Eisenhower is the most famous man

493
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 5: at that point in the world, right, and so there

494
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,199
Speaker 5: was no chance anyone could could win against him. And

495
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 5: Eisenhower says to Taft, and we know this is truegers

496
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 5: both sides have reported of this. Eisenow sester Robert Taft,

497
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 5: I will issue a showmanes declaration that I will not run,

498
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,439
Speaker 5: and if nominated, I will I will not take the

499
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 5: nomination if you issue a one sentence declaration that you

500
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:18,919
Speaker 5: support NATO. Robert Tafft says, I cannot do that. This

501
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 5: is too core to my belief. So Eisenhower said, well,

502
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:23,679
Speaker 5: then it sounds like we have a race, and that

503
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 5: so eisen Ower ran for president, to keep the Republican

504
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 5: Party internationalists, sort to make the Republican Party internationalist. And

505
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 5: so it's you know, it's been again. As I say,

506
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 5: it's what you're seeing is the re emergence of a

507
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 5: very old Republican party that is protectionist, isolationist, culturally, shaubnist,

508
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 5: you know, and has elements layered onto it of the

509
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 5: kind of the old Southern Democratic races.

510
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: It's so funny because it's like, I come from this

511
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 1: family of communists, so you know, my grandfather.

512
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 3: Was hard fast. So growing up, my grandfather always say

513
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,679
Speaker 3: like Reagan is the worse. You know, there's no one worse.

514
00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 1: Than Ronald Reagan, you know, and you would go on

515
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 1: and on, and you know my mother too, oh and

516
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 1: the military industrial complex and YadA YadA. But the truth is, like,

517
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: if you're looking back, Reagan really was sort of a

518
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 1: high point in a lot of ways, pro immigration, pro

519
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 1: a sort of more inclusive America.

520
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 3: I mean, certain things that he did.

521
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously I'm hardly you know Reagan fairly, but

522
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 1: there's certainly things that he did that were incredible for

523
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: this Republican Party.

524
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 5: It was a much more sunny, optimistic, kind of conservatism.

525
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 5: And in a way it speaks to this point I

526
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 5: make in the book, which is Reagan was right wing

527
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 5: on the old left right spectrum in terms of the

528
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 5: state's room of the in the economy right, the old

529
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 5: left right spectrum was the left wanted more state, a

530
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 5: less market, and the right wanted less state, more market.

531
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 5: And Reagan was very much a right winger in those stones.

532
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 5: But in terms of the new spectrum, which I call

533
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 5: open versus closed. You know, do you want to open,

534
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 5: open economy, open information flows, open multicultural society, diversity, immigration.

535
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,159
Speaker 5: On that spectrum, Reagan is actually very much open. You know,

536
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 5: he was for all the things and Trump, interestingly as

537
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,679
Speaker 5: opposed to all those things that Reagan was in favor of. Right,

538
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 5: if you think about it, Reagan wanted more immigration, Trump

539
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 5: once less. Reagan wanted you know, was more than happy

540
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 5: comestable with diversity. Trump wants less. Reagan was a free trader.

541
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 5: Trump is a protectionist. Reagan loved the idea of America

542
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 5: being the symbol of democracy and spreading democracy around the world.

543
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 5: Trump hates that idea. It's fascinating that on the new spectrum,

544
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 5: Trump is basically disaviving the Republican Party, what the Republican

545
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 5: Party has stood for for thirty five years.

546
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about the economic questions, because protectionism I

547
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 1: am so sort of horrified by it, but it's happening

548
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: both on.

549
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 3: The left and the right.

550
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: Right, I mean the tariffs, I mean, Trump is definitely

551
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 1: not as organized and a lot of his tariffs seemed

552
00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: more emotional than they are strategic. But we're seeing it

553
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,959
Speaker 1: on the left too, right, I mean, tariffs have become

554
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,719
Speaker 1: all of a sudden a sort of popular tool in

555
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 1: the economy, which they hadn't been throughout my youth. So

556
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: can you speak to that and why?

557
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 5: Yeah? First of all, you're one hundred percent right. The

558
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 5: creeping protectionism is there in both parties. Trump is almost

559
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 5: certainly much more protectionists. So for instance, he's talking about

560
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 5: campaigning on a ten percent tariffs on all imported goods.

561
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 5: He's talking about sixty percent tariffs on Chinese goods, which

562
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 5: would have a very significant sect. You know, people worry

563
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 5: about inflation, Well, you know, there's nothing more inflationary than

564
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 5: putting on tariffs because by definition, right, you're raising the

565
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 5: price of goods, You're raising the price of everything that

566
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 5: comes in and it's not just the goods we buy,

567
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 5: but everything that's made in America, lots of it has

568
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 5: imported parts. So you might buy an American car, but

569
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 5: maybe thirty percent of the parts come from around the world.

570
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 5: And if all that is more expensive, now, why is

571
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 5: it happening? It's a very good question. Basically, what's happened

572
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 5: is there is an narrative that has taken hold in

573
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 5: America that yeah, globalization was good, but it hollowed out

574
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 5: the middle class, it hollowed out the working class. The

575
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 5: statistics don't completely prove that, but it is true that

576
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 5: there are certain parts of the country that turned out

577
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 5: to be politically very sensitive, the rust belt, Ohio, Pennsylvania,

578
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 5: Michigan where the effects are felt very strongly. So even

579
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 5: though in aggregate, I would argue there's no question that

580
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 5: the thirty years of globalization raised America's GDP income, average

581
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 5: income for everybody, lowered costs for food, for clothing, for

582
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 5: appliances for everybody. It did have this effect in Ohio,

583
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 5: in Michigan, and those are so important politically in a

584
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 5: fifty to fifty country that, in my opinion, we're sort

585
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 5: of overreacting to that. Look, I'm an old fashioned liberal

586
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 5: in the sense that I believe we should. This is

587
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 5: FDR's view. We should use the market to generate well,

588
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 5: we should embrace free trade because it lowers costs and

589
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 5: gives you more efficiency, and then we should use that

590
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 5: money to redistribute to the people who get left behind.

591
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 5: Our biggest problem in my view, is over the last

592
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 5: thirty years, we did a lot of the first which

593
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 5: is embracing globalization, and we didn't do it enough of

594
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 5: the second. Right, you know, that's the most efficient thing

595
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 5: to do, rather than to have tariffs where you know,

596
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 5: there was a calculation that Obama put tariffs on tires

597
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 5: at one point, and it was calculated that the cost

598
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 5: of saving each one of those jobs in America was

599
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 5: one million dollars.

600
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 3: I shouldn't laugh.

601
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 5: But you know you'd be much write better of writing

602
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 5: a check for half a million dollars to each of

603
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 5: those displaced workers. But the problem is we never did

604
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 5: enough of that. You know, we never did invest in

605
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 5: retraining and all that stuff. And so this has bitten

606
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 5: us in the back because we you know, that was

607
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 5: the great failure in my view. We embraced a lot

608
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 5: of the good things that allowed for openness and innovation

609
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 5: and efficiency. But the flip side of that, if you

610
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 5: want to maintain a stable country and community, is that

611
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 5: you've got to help those who get left behind. But

612
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 5: we tend to have this view, which I think is

613
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 5: the you know, part of the kind of an inherent

614
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 5: American view that people get left behind as their own fault,

615
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 5: and I think that profoundly misunderstands how capitalism works. You know.

616
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 5: It's like something becomes more efficient, some industry becomes more efficient,

617
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 5: some other industry becomes less efficient. The workers working in

618
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 5: that steel plan, they could not have adjusted. They're not

619
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 5: in a position to adjust to the new more efficient right,

620
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 5: that's a decision being made, you know, by the CEOs

621
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 5: and by Wall Street, and those guys are the ones

622
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,479
Speaker 5: where I'm saying we should be helping, you know, and

623
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 5: we somehow forget that those people are as much, you know,

624
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 5: victims of structural changes in the world economy, and we

625
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 5: should be helping them. We should be giving them more,

626
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 5: you know, for so just more cash, help with retraining,

627
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 5: help with relocating, whatever it is.

628
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: This is a certain sort of hearkening back though because

629
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 1: of the tariffs.

630
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 3: I totally agree with you.

631
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: You cannot have capitalism without having, you know, some balance

632
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: with the capitalism, whether that's regulation or taxation or what

633
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 1: that looks like. The Chips Act was this idea to

634
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: bring manufacturing which had been to sort of pump up

635
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 1: manufacturing in the United States. That is a sort of

636
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 1: way to solve that problem, right.

637
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, So the Chips Act, it tries to address a

638
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 5: kind of different problem, which is there's some things in

639
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 5: America that are so vital to our national security that

640
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 5: we probably should make them at home. And I basically

641
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 5: agree with that. I think that we should keep that

642
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 5: list of essential vital national security related technologies small because

643
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 5: it's very expensive. The way we are getting these chip

644
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 5: plants to come back to America is by giving massive, massive, Yes, right,

645
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 5: we're talking about in the tens and tens of billions

646
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 5: of dollars. And I would just point out if we

647
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 5: were to take that money and spend it on early

648
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 5: childcare and education, I wonder whether we would get in

649
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 5: the long run of bigger banks for the buck. So

650
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,720
Speaker 5: but as I say, I'm okay with it. But let's

651
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 5: not let this turn into the ever expanding list of

652
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 5: federal subsidies for things that we think are neat and

653
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 5: nifty to have. Let's keep it really focused, national security oriented,

654
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 5: and then I'm okay with it.

655
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, as is totally fascinating and really

656
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: appreciate having you.

657
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 5: Mollie is such a pleasure. I hope I see you soon.

658
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 2: Ali Velshie is the host ofmsnbc's Felshie and the author

659
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 2: of Small Acts of Courage, A Legacy of Endurance and

660
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 2: the Fight for Democracy.

661
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Fast Politics, my brand and also one

662
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: of my favorite television hosts and also a really good writer,

663
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: Ali Belshie.

664
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 6: Nice to be here.

665
00:34:55,680 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 1: I'm listening to your audiobook right now. It is so good. First,

666
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,959
Speaker 1: it's so good, second.

667
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 3: Of them all. You ride a motorcycle.

668
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's definitely one of those thing that people don't

669
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,399
Speaker 6: know about me. And it turned out, and by the way,

670
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 6: at the time that I write about riding the motorcycle,

671
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 6: my parents I was a grown man, but my parents

672
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 6: didn't know at a motorcycle, so they learned about it

673
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,720
Speaker 6: much later. It was the way I got to the US,

674
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 6: and I still have the bike. I must say, I

675
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 6: don't use it much, but I'm a man of a

676
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 6: certain age, so if I get rid of it. I

677
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 6: can't get it back right. A four year old man

678
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 6: can't buy a motorcycle because that means you're having a

679
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:32,720
Speaker 6: midlife crisis.

680
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 5: So his grandfather did.

681
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 6: My wife was like, could you get rid of the

682
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:36,319
Speaker 6: motorcycle please?

683
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:42,760
Speaker 1: I love this book and I really love the story

684
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: of how Ashley Banfield was mean to you.

685
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:46,800
Speaker 3: Ali.

686
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: The book is called Small Acts of Courage, the Legacy

687
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,399
Speaker 1: of Endurance and the Fight for Democracy.

688
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 6: Yeah, And that's the good thing is that's the point

689
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 6: of the book that small acts are what we need

690
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 6: in a world that feels entirely overwhelming, where everything seems

691
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 6: to be collapsing all around us. People can really change

692
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,359
Speaker 6: things with the small things they can do in their

693
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 6: families and their communities, you know where they are.

694
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 1: And I think that's a really good point because I

695
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: do see a lot of people they're either distraught or exhausted.

696
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 6: Yes, correct, And I think we have to understand that

697
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 6: it feels like you need to boil the ocean to

698
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 6: get any of these days.

699
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 5: But you can't.

700
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 6: Right, we can't end the Russia Ukraine War on our own.

701
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 6: We can't end Israel gods on our own. What we

702
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 6: can do is be fully engaged citizens, and that helps

703
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 6: because these people who are fully engaged go on to

704
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 6: do other things, or support candidates or fix things in

705
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 6: their communities, and that encourages others to go farther than

706
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 6: they did, and that those people can become senators or

707
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 6: presidents or members of Congress, or journalists or whatever the

708
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 6: case may be. I think we need to not underestimate

709
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 6: our own power as people anywhere in the world, and

710
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 6: particularly as voting citizens in the United States. We actually

711
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 6: have power that a lot of people in the world

712
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 6: don't have. And I want to get people sort of

713
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 6: motivated and feeling good about the fact that I have

714
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,399
Speaker 6: agency and responsibility over how this can all turn out.

715
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 6: I don't have to just be a victim of the

716
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 6: waves that are coming over us.

717
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was glad you talked about that. And I

718
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 1: also do think we do have a lot of power

719
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 1: and a lot of agency. And also what we've seen

720
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 1: in a lot of these elections is these are tight elections.

721
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 1: As upsetting as it is that there's a large percentage

722
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 1: of this country that wants some form of wacky at

723
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: talk or say these are close elections, so we have

724
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 1: you know, if Democrats are not engaged, they lose.

725
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 6: Yes, And you know, this is the electionist year in

726
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 6: modern history, right. I think like half the world's population

727
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,439
Speaker 6: is going to vote, and a lot they're not real

728
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 6: elections like Russia or Iran. In a lot of them,

729
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 6: they're not close elections like Hungary's had one. India is

730
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 6: in the midst of having an election. Takes a long

731
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 6: time in India. They're not going to be closed mode.

732
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 6: He's going to win, probably by a landslide, and he's

733
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 6: sort of an anti democratic sort. We still have in

734
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 6: America democracy. We still have the right to vote, and

735
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 6: I think we still have more people who believe in

736
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,879
Speaker 6: democracy and rights than not in America. We don't want

737
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 6: to be giving that away and we don't want to

738
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 6: be falling to trend that's going around the world. It's

739
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 6: always gone around by the way, it's historical that when

740
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 6: things feel overwhelming, elect the guy who says I can

741
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 6: fix everything for you, right, because that doesn't generally work out. Well,

742
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 6: we have agency, we can fix things. That's fine. Don't

743
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 6: give up here. Democracy don't happen through revolution. They happen

744
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 6: through people voting themselves out of power. They happen through

745
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 6: people voting anti democratic democratic people into power. So that's

746
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 6: the thing we have to be conscious of in this

747
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 6: next few months.

748
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, you right, really well about that, about this, you

749
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,760
Speaker 1: know what it looks like to go from an autocracy.

750
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 3: You know, India made this choice.

751
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. It is choice, which is

752
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 6: kind of wild because India under Gandhi, which is really

753
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 6: part of my story because later a role in my

754
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 6: family's history. India in nineteen forty eight got independence from

755
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 6: Great Britain because of literally a series of small acts

756
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 6: of courage by people like Gandhi and others around him.

757
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 6: They actually designed this, in fact, to the point that

758
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 6: the Indian flag has a spinning wheel on it. It's

759
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,280
Speaker 6: a wheel on which you weave cloth because Gandhi told Indians,

760
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 6: you know what your small act of courage is, weave

761
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 6: your own cloth so that you don't have to buy

762
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 6: imported cloth from Britain, which was you know, cotton that

763
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 6: came out of the ground in India that went to

764
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 6: Britain and got resold a higher prices. To to Indians,

765
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 6: that's actually the symbol of their independence. And yet they

766
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 6: are prepared to vote for an autocrat because people they

767
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,800
Speaker 6: find the stuff intoxicating, people who say they can fix things,

768
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 6: people who say they can give you things that are

769
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 6: outsized and not reasonable. So we've not fallen full victim

770
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 6: to that in the United States. But the idea that

771
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 6: Donald Trump still has standing and still is the presumptive

772
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 6: Republican nominee, tells you there is a danger.

773
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:10,839
Speaker 1: You're not a Nepo baby, but you do have famous grandparents.

774
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 1: As a Nepo baby, myself, I'm always trying.

775
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 3: To worry baby. We're actually I was saying this too

776
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 3: at Leastia the other day.

777
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 1: We're not Nepo babies, were Neposaurus because we're too old

778
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: to be babies. But your great grandfather was involved with

779
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: Gandhi right noe.

780
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 6: And my grandfather was his youngest student on his commune,

781
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 6: his ushram, which was highly influential to my family because

782
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 6: it taught him. You know, this ushram was was sixty

783
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 6: miles away from where my grandfather was living, but in

784
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 6: those days is of sixty miles in dirt roads in

785
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 6: nineteen ten, so that was a two day journey, which

786
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 6: meant he didn't go home. He lived on the farm.

787
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 6: He didn't have the upbringing of his mother and father.

788
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 6: Gandhi was his person who taught him stuff. My grandfather

789
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 6: was Muslim, Gandhi was Hindu. And when my great grandfather

790
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 6: let my grandfather be gandhi student, said to Gandhi, there's

791
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 6: one condition you have to teach him is religion. Well,

792
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 6: Gandhi didn't know Islam, so he read it. He learned

793
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,839
Speaker 6: Islam to teach it to my grandfather. He learned Judaism,

794
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 6: he learned Christianity, and of course he understood Hinduism. And

795
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 6: that was the birth of this concept of pluralism in

796
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 6: my family, which has persisted through the decades to the

797
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 6: point that my parents when they finally emigrated to Kenya

798
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 6: and then to Canada, all they wanted was a society

799
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 6: in which people are not judged or separated or distinguished

800
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 6: by the color of their skin, by their race, by

801
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,879
Speaker 6: their religion. And they taught me to realize that what

802
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 6: value there is to live in a society where not

803
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 6: only are people different, but people have different ideas And

804
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 6: how do we value that, how do we nurture that?

805
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 6: What does that dialogue look like? And that's sort of

806
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 6: where I am today, That's why I am the journalist

807
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 6: I am today.

808
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, you would talk about the diaspora in such an

809
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 1: interesting way, and what it means to be as jew

810
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:02,240
Speaker 1: who has a similar team on having been so moved

811
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 1: from like nobody in your family lived in India for generations.

812
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 3: Can you talk about how that informed?

813
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 6: Sure, you know, I hear actually a lot from a

814
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:12,400
Speaker 6: lot of people who read the book, but from my

815
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 6: Jewish friends who say, this sounds like my family's history

816
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 6: a little bit right. It's the idea that sometimes you

817
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 6: move by choice because you could see the writing on

818
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 6: the wall. Sometimes you moved by force. Sometimes you were

819
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 6: kicked out, but you went to places where maybe you

820
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 6: knew the language, maybe you didn't, Maybe you knew the culture,

821
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 6: maybe you didn't. Maybe you were welcomed, probably you weren't,

822
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 6: but you you so loved the quest for freedom that

823
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 6: you'll make it work. So even if any kind of

824
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 6: immigrant shows up somewhere where the streets aren't paved with

825
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 6: gold and everything's not as good as it sounded when

826
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 6: you made the decision to get there, you try and

827
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 6: make a go of it. You try and make it work.

828
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 6: And when I see and it was very relevant to

829
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 6: the immigration conversation we're having in America today, because you

830
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 6: and I live in New York and when I walk out,

831
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 6: chances are greater than I'm going to run into a

832
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 6: an immigrant or a migrant than I am a native

833
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 6: born New Yorker these days. And I just look at

834
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 6: it and I think, I wonder what these people's grandchildren

835
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 6: are going to write about them as they deliver food

836
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 6: or they offer some service as part of our economy.

837
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,319
Speaker 6: Migration is the way of the world. It has always been.

838
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,360
Speaker 6: It will only be more so between climate and wars

839
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 6: and economic migration, and we need to understand it better

840
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 6: because to me, this is a bit this book is

841
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 6: a bit of an ode to immigration. In some cases,

842
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 6: migration people who make the choice to move for a

843
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 6: better life for their family. It always works out, Molly.

844
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,840
Speaker 6: People who do that end up being massive contributors to

845
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 6: the places to which they move.

846
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 1: Oh, my grandparents except one of my grandmothers is born in.

847
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 3: England, but all of them were born in New York

848
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 3: and they lived in New York. And my parents lived

849
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 3: in New York, and I live in New York. My

850
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 3: kids live in New York City.

851
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 1: And I often think, first of all, immigrants are the

852
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 1: reason that we have such a good economy, right, because

853
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 1: I was on with these Brits yesterday and they were

854
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 1: talking about how much their economy suck, and it's because

855
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 1: of Brexit, because of the same stupid ideas that Donald

856
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,799
Speaker 1: Trump had, right that you know, immigrants are bad and

857
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 1: we can grow the economy by who knows, yes, right, right,

858
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:16,400
Speaker 1: by whatever, by being more racist.

859
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:18,359
Speaker 3: And so I do think about that a lot.

860
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 1: And there's zero difference between me and the guy delivering

861
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 1: the food, right, except that my family came here a

862
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 1: little earlier.

863
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 6: That that was exactly right. And your trajectory is influential

864
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 6: to them. If they look at your family and your

865
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 6: history and my family and my history, they say, hey,

866
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 6: we can make a go of it, and they generally do.

867
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 6: Despite all the nonsense that we hear these days about

868
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 6: committing more crimes, I mean, it's statistically proven that immigrants

869
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 6: don't commit more crimes than native born populations because there's

870
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 6: a massive disincentive to commit a crime. If you're here

871
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 6: is an immigrant. If your is an undocumented migrant, it's

872
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 6: even more serious. You will get yourself deported. It's as

873
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 6: simple as that.

874
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 5: You've seen them.

875
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 6: They just work hard. And when I talk about my

876
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 6: family having moved from India to South afric in the

877
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 6: late eighteen hundreds and early nineteen hundreds. You know, I

878
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 6: grew up thinking they were business people. They were business people.

879
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 6: They had carts like wheelbarrows into which they put things

880
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 6: and sold things. Some had vegetables and some had dried goods.

881
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:15,280
Speaker 6: So we see here in America they're people doing whatever

882
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 6: work is available so that they can live to fight

883
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 6: another day. But they will, they will live to fight

884
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 6: another day, and they will have children who will get educations.

885
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 6: And God knows we need them because we're short of

886
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 6: everything in this country. We are sort of odors. We're

887
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 6: short of doctors, pharmacists, everything we need. But we have immigration.

888
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 6: You know, immigration in America falls under the Department of

889
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 6: Homeland Security, which I think is terrible framing because I

890
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 6: talk about Canada and our immigrants experience there. Canada understands

891
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 6: that immigrants turned Canada from a sort of a podunk

892
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:48,839
Speaker 6: provincial place into a country that punches above its weight.

893
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 6: We frame it as a security threat, and I'm not

894
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 6: saying that the border is not a real issue.

895
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 4: You have a door.

896
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 6: You should be able to close your door and lock

897
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:58,440
Speaker 6: your door and open it whenever you want. But that's

898
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:01,319
Speaker 6: not all of immigration. Immigrant is what the country's built on,

899
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 6: and it's an economic imperative that we have to solve.

900
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 6: And what we're doing is we're falling victim to language

901
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 6: and discussions that don't do it justice.

902
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 1: The right has gained the system in an insane way.

903
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 1: And the truth is, you shut the border and people

904
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 1: in Texas are furious with you because they go to

905
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 1: Mexico all the time. They go shopping, they go to dinner,

906
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 1: they go to the mall. I mean this whole idea,

907
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 1: you know, down Trump's like shut the border. You know,

908
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:27,800
Speaker 1: there are a lot of Republicans who are driving to

909
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 1: Mexico right now.

910
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 3: There's a lot of crossover.

911
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 1: And the idea that we're somehow static in this continent

912
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 1: is insanity. I would also add that Canada is a

913
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: nicer place to immigrate too, because they have more services

914
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 1: for people.

915
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 6: Well they do, and by the way, universal healthcare being

916
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 6: the main one, because fundamentally that doesn't become a strain

917
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 6: on the system. Canada accepts the fact that if you

918
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 6: are coming into the country, you will probably sooner than later,

919
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:59,279
Speaker 6: become a contributing member of society. In the economy and

920
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 6: so week or so, I was in Toronto for a

921
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 6: fundraiser for the Toronto Public Library System. The beneficiary of

922
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 6: the fundraiser was new arrivals to Canada. How do we

923
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 6: provide them with financial counseling, how do we provide them

924
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:15,240
Speaker 6: with language training? How do we help them find housing?

925
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:19,280
Speaker 6: Because Canada still leans into that idea that without immigration

926
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:22,319
Speaker 6: will fall apart. I mean, the truth is, so will

927
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:25,320
Speaker 6: we in America. But we've so framed the discussion around

928
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 6: dangerous people coming across the border and flooding our cities.

929
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 6: And you know, some of our northern politicians are not

930
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 6: helping that situation. They lean into the alarmist language about

931
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 6: this stuff. So people tell you, you know, you can't

932
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 6: get housing in New York. It's too expensive because of migrants.

933
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 6: How there's been too expensive in New York for one

934
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 6: hundred freaking years. London, New York, Vancouver, San Francisco, Chicago,

935
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 6: every major city in the world has a housing infrastructure

936
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 6: problem which should be solved whether or not you have immigration. Right,

937
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:53,360
Speaker 6: we should be building transit and housing for our people

938
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 6: and airports or whatever it is that we need to

939
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 6: be doing. So blaming immigrants for the stresses of our

940
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:01,719
Speaker 6: cities is sort of cowardly and empty and economically not

941
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 6: going to work in the long run anyway.

942
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:06,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, the whole idea, the division is just such a

943
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 1: large part of publican politics. Jesse just sent me an

944
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 1: interesting tax saying that throwing out Airbnb ultimately has helped

945
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 1: with the housing situation in New York, which makes sense.

946
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, but we're far from a solution, and like this

947
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 6: or anywhere, and if you, you know, the smart thing

948
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 6: to do economically would be really figure that out, Really

949
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 6: figure out what the growth rate of this city and

950
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 6: our cities are, and really figure out how to create

951
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:38,799
Speaker 6: lots of housing mixed housing come for rich people and

952
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 6: some for low income people. And then it doesn't it

953
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 6: doesn't sort of have this backward influence on your immigration policy. Right,

954
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 6: if everybody can get healthcare and everybody get housing, we

955
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 6: certainly have the jobs that we know we have. We

956
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 6: certainly know that all of these immigrants that Donald Trump

957
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:57,399
Speaker 6: warns about, these migrants, all of these dangerous people, they're

958
00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 6: not driving our wages out because our wages are up.

959
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 6: So so we need to think about this differently. And look,

960
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:07,359
Speaker 6: I'll say this Democrats didn't fix it when they had

961
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:11,839
Speaker 6: the chance. Republicans, many of them, used to speak very

962
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 6: positively about immigration, particularly governors in Western states where they

963
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:18,080
Speaker 6: knew they needed the labor. Or w Bush paints nice

964
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 6: pictures of immigrants these days, which is nice. But we're

965
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 6: all kind of in the wrong place on this, and

966
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:25,319
Speaker 6: we need to redesign our conversations around the fact that

967
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 6: this is our future. It's our past. By the way,

968
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 6: all of us are immigrants in some fashion or children

969
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 6: of immigrants. We need to refashion how we think about

970
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,800
Speaker 6: society and build our future on the basis of equal

971
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 6: rights for everybody, real civil rights for everybody, and the

972
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:42,760
Speaker 6: fact that we're just going to be a constantly evolving society.

973
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 6: And that's a great thing.

974
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:48,839
Speaker 1: We're one hundred and seventy ish seventy six seventy eight

975
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 1: when this airs days to the election.

976
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:53,240
Speaker 3: What do you been surprised by?

977
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 6: I sort of am surprised by the resilience of Donald

978
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 6: Trump in this thing. If you or I got into

979
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:00,359
Speaker 6: a fraction of the trouble that this guy gets into,

980
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 6: the reputational harm done to us would be remarkable. And

981
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:05,359
Speaker 6: I don't know whether he's just hit up bottom so

982
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 6: that he can't harm himself anymore. There's a bunch of

983
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 6: people who will just stick with him. Remember the core

984
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 6: who sticks with him sort of the same core number

985
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 6: of people percentage of Americans who believe in a lot

986
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 6: of conspiracy theories and things like that. So you can

987
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 6: get sort of a third of the American population to

988
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 6: believe a lot, particularly in the days of misinformation. I

989
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 6: do think that the Democrats are going to have to

990
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 6: get it together in terms of dealing with what their

991
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 6: message is on democracy, what their message is on reproductive freedom,

992
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 6: which seems to be a remarkable motivator for people to

993
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 6: turn out to vote. And they're going to have to

994
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 6: figure out what their message is on the Middle East,

995
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:43,440
Speaker 6: because they're losing support in greater numbers than the margin

996
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 6: by which Joe Biden won some states. So there's work

997
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 6: to be done. I think they're working very hard toward

998
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 6: a ceasefire, which might help that situation, might help that

999
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 6: discussion a little bit. But this is by no means

1000
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:58,279
Speaker 6: an obvious outcome in November, and one that has me

1001
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:04,720
Speaker 6: quite worried right now. Oh, we have agency, We have agency.

1002
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 6: That's the other part. That's the book part that you

1003
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 6: know what we can do?

1004
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 4: Think about it?

1005
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 3: Okay?

1006
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 5: Good.

1007
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 3: I am also worried to thank you Alli. I hope

1008
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 3: you'll come back.

1009
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 6: I would love to thank you, my friend.

1010
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 3: No moment, oh fuck Rick Wilson.

1011
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 4: Yes, ma'am.

1012
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:25,799
Speaker 3: Do you want to know who my moment of fuckery is?

1013
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:26,879
Speaker 5: I do.

1014
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 4: I would love to know your moment of fuckery.

1015
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:32,000
Speaker 3: Mighty Mike Flynn, everybody's favorite.

1016
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 1: I don't know if Trump knows this, but he's ready

1017
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 1: to be Trump's VP.

1018
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 3: Pick I like it.

1019
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 4: You know, since Mike Flynn is presently suing me for

1020
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 4: ten million dollars, I'm going to refrain from comment for

1021
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 4: once in my life.

1022
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 1: Well, in my mind, Donald, you cannot go wrong picking

1023
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:51,600
Speaker 1: Mike Flynn, and that is why I say to you.

1024
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:53,880
Speaker 3: Definitely pick Mike Flynn.

1025
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 1: If a Baca's not around, hard to think of someone

1026
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 1: better than Mike Flynn. Luck to all who definitely pick him.

1027
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 1: I think that'll be great.

1028
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 4: Have fun storming the castle.

1029
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:10,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, good luck, team, it's gonna be great.

1030
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:14,840
Speaker 4: It's gonna be great. Well, my moment of fuckery, and

1031
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:18,279
Speaker 4: I know you're gonna be shocked, absolutely shocked to hear this.

1032
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:23,280
Speaker 4: But on Friday the Securities and Exchange Commission charged bf

1033
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 4: Borgers CPA with systemic fraud, banned him permanently from practicing

1034
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 4: as an accountant for any business regulated by the sec

1035
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:35,279
Speaker 4: and charged him fourteen million dollars in civil penalties. Wait,

1036
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 4: who is what's the connection?

1037
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:37,439
Speaker 5: You ask?

1038
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:42,359
Speaker 4: He happens to be the auditing firm for Truths Social.

1039
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 3: Oh my god, amazing. That is amazing. That is an

1040
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:49,279
Speaker 3: amazing moment of fuckery. You win.

1041
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 4: Oh my god, I was laughing. I laughed so hard

1042
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 4: on Friday that I wished for a moment I had

1043
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:58,960
Speaker 4: Trump diapers. I know you can't stop me. There's no

1044
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 4: force of nature that will stop me from being a

1045
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:02,280
Speaker 4: twelve year old asshole.

1046
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:07,439
Speaker 3: I'm aware. That was bad. That was so upseting.

1047
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 1: Oo God, that's it for this episode of Fast Politics.

1048
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 1: Tune in every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to hear the

1049
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 1: best minds in politics make sense of all this chaos.

1050
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:22,840
Speaker 1: If you enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to

1051
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:26,280
Speaker 1: a friend and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks

1052
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:26,920
Speaker 1: for listening.