1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told You from how stup 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we're going to talk 4 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 1: about two topics that might not sound like they go together, 5 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: but in fact work so perfectly in tandem, and that 6 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: is social justice and science fiction. And thankfully, since to 7 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: be perfectly honest, I'm not a science fiction expert, Caroline, 8 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: or are you a science fiction I can't say that 9 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: I'm a science fiction expert. As much as I have 10 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: watched some science fiction movies, I cannot claim to be 11 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 1: an expert. And even though Caroline, I have dressed up 12 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: as Ripley for Halloween, sadly that doesn't you know that 13 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: that even still doesn't make me an expert. But thankfully 14 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: we have someone so much more knowledgeable in the realms 15 00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:00,080 Speaker 1: of both social justice and science fiction to talk to 16 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: us today about all this fun stuff, and that is 17 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 1: online editor of the feminism and pop culture nonprofit that 18 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: we site all the time on the podcast Bitch Media, 19 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: and also host of the feminist podcast Popaganda, Sarah Murk. Welcome, Sarah, Hi, Kristen, 20 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,119 Speaker 1: Hi Caroline. It's to be here. Oh well, it's so 21 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 1: great to have you. Well, so Sarah, to get things 22 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: kicked off, let's start first by talking about your specific 23 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: interest in science fiction. What do you love about it 24 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: as a form of entertainment, and how has it informed 25 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 1: your personal perspectives or philosophies are even activism? Well, first 26 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:42,759 Speaker 1: of all, science fiction is just fun. I love reading 27 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 1: science fiction and I like watching science fiction movies because 28 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: it's a really good time. Um, you can sort of 29 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: get deep and philosophical about it, but honestly, I just 30 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: like a story that's well told, that has an interesting 31 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: world behind it. You know, I'm somebody I grew up 32 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: reading a lot of fantasy and a lot of science fiction, 33 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: so you know, super mainstream stuff like Lord of the 34 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: Rings as fantasy, and then for science fiction like Dune 35 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: and Enders Game and the way that they sort of 36 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: prompted me to think about how other worlds could be. 37 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: It's just great for your imagination. You know, kids love 38 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: science fiction. I think in fantasy because, um, it ties 39 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: into our imagination so much and helps us sort of 40 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: see what other worlds could be and helps us imagine 41 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: a world beyond our own. And as I've gotten older, 42 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: science fiction is a great venue for it discussing our 43 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: own culture and our own society. So as we were 44 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: reading about alien worlds in really good science fiction, it's 45 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: a reflection of what's happening in our own society. And 46 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: so often in the science fiction books that I love, 47 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 1: you sort of introduced to a culture, and there's some 48 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: kind of observer, like an alien who has dropped onto 49 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 1: a planet, who's observing the culture and reflecting on it. 50 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: And what they're commenting on is stuff that you'll see 51 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: a lot in our society, or that pushes us to 52 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 1: rethink the things that that we take for granted as 53 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: normal and instead see them as, oh, this could function 54 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 1: totally different. Or if an alien landed here on Earth, 55 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: what would they be appalled by or what would they 56 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: think was really interesting? Well, I think from maybe more 57 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: of an outsider perspective for people maybe sitting more where 58 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: Caroline and I are who aren't really familiar, like in 59 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: depth with the genre. Who you know, we've seen star Wars, 60 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: we've seen alien things like that, But it seems like 61 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: for a long time, particularly in those more mainstream presentations 62 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: of science fiction, it hasn't exactly been a haven for 63 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: diverse representation. So just kind of wondering how the genre 64 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: and also reader's awareness is kind of perspective perspective. Excuse 65 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: me that you're bringing to this how that has evolved 66 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: beyond a white, cis gender, male centric canon. Actually it's 67 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: not a new thing. I was, you know. I sort 68 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: of came to this reading um books like doing a 69 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: enders game when I was a teenager, and then later 70 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: discovered writers like Ursula La Gwin and Octavia Butler, who 71 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: when I just picked up their books, I thought they 72 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: were writing today, and it turns out they were writing 73 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies and the nineteen eighties. So a 74 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: sort of trend of linking social justice and science fiction 75 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 1: hasn't really happening for almost forty years, as in the 76 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: book world. Um. One of one of my favorite science 77 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: fiction books is by Ursula Kyla Gwin, and it's called 78 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: The Dispossessed, and this was published in nineteen seventy four, 79 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: So think about what's going on in nineteen seventy four, 80 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: which just had Rope Wade. We have a huge civil 81 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 1: rights movement activism and women's movement activism, and this book 82 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 1: comes along and it's about a planet that's a totally 83 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: egalitarian planet, an entire world that's sort of run on 84 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 1: UM the principles of anarchy, of mutual aid and no government, 85 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: so no no police, UM, no prisons, no no centralized government, 86 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: just everyone helping each other in the ways that they 87 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 1: want to. And you know, a person from this planet 88 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 1: goes to another world, and that world is very sexist, 89 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: and he sort of runs into all these sorts of 90 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: cultural problems around poverty and inequality in the world. UM. 91 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: And this book that Dispossessed it is mainstream science fiction. 92 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 1: It won in the year it came out, and won 93 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: the Hugo and won the Nebula Awards. Those are the 94 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: biggest awards in science fiction. UM. It won the World 95 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: Fantasy Award Award, and it won the National Book Award. 96 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,479 Speaker 1: So that's as mainstream as it gets. And this is 97 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: a book that's really clearly discussing inequality, that's discussing um 98 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 1: other options for governments, that's clearly putting sexism front and center. 99 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,039 Speaker 1: But what's funny about this book I have I have 100 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: an addition of it that was published by Harper just 101 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: recently in the last few years, and none of that 102 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,160 Speaker 1: stuff that just talked about shows up on the cover 103 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: text of the book. So if you look at this 104 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: book in the store, what it says on the cover, 105 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 1: it's Ursula Cala Gwin's that dispossessed. And then the description 106 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: of the book on the cover is an astonishing tale 107 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: of one man's search for utopia. And I'm like, this 108 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 1: book is not about one man search for utopia. This 109 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 1: book is about like, uh, sexism and classism and physics, 110 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,479 Speaker 1: as well as a lot of bureaucracy and politics. But 111 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,679 Speaker 1: what it's not is like one brilliant man alone against 112 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: the world, searching for utopia. And so I think that 113 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: there's I think that there's definitely still a disconnect between 114 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 1: the way that science fiction books are often seen and 115 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 1: sold by publishers and like the sort of revolutionary content 116 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: that's actually within them. And that's something you see in 117 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 1: Octavia Butler's books too. Octavia Butler is and she she's 118 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: a black woman science fiction writer, and lots of her 119 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 1: story center on black characters and people of color. But 120 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: she had a lot of trouble in her life of 121 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: publishers whitewashing the covers of her books, of putting um 122 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:06,919 Speaker 1: you know, white people on the covers of books that 123 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: are about characters who are not white, and so there's 124 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: there's has been that problem with how science fiction is 125 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: sort of seeing as as a genre for white sis, 126 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: gender dudes, when a lot of the stuff is written 127 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: about is actually very revolutionary. Well, and we've also speaking 128 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: to gender. I've noticed in recent years conversations about the 129 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: representation of gender in science fiction, but particularly to what 130 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: you're talking about in the marketing of science fiction. So 131 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: there have been those, uh, those kind of viral blog 132 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: posts of the gender flipped sci fi covers where you know, 133 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: men are doing the typical female poses, which kind of 134 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: leads to this question of the intersection of feminism and 135 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: sci fied Where, where and how do those worlds collide? 136 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: It Well, I think science fiction sort of gives us 137 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: a way to talk about our own culture and reflect 138 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: on what we think of as normal, and it also 139 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: gives us really good tools for sort of rethinking what 140 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: we think we know. And so so the way that 141 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: feminism and science fiction intersect is that when you hear 142 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: these stories about future societies or future cultures um or 143 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: people visiting our own world and being confused by it, 144 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: it makes you question what rules in society you take 145 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: for granted, and what's actually not like a biological imperative, 146 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: but it's just the culture that we've built. And so, 147 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: for example, in ur soloa Quin's books, since I was 148 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: just talking about her UM, there's often there's there's planets 149 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 1: where there is no gender difference. Or in Octavia Butler's books, 150 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:52,199 Speaker 1: she has a book where there's um a whole race 151 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: of species where there's a third gender, and so that 152 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: pushes readers, even young readers or old readers to rethink, 153 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: wait a second, wait, there can be a planet where 154 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: there's no gender. What does this say about? What does 155 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: this say about what gender is? Well, speaking of these 156 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,319 Speaker 1: social issues, in a recent Bitch article and on papaganda, 157 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 1: will lead your and Marisha talked about how, quote all 158 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: organizing is science fiction. That sounds a little bit out there, 159 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: but actually the theory is not that out there. Could 160 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,959 Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about what this means? Yeah, sure, 161 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: Willia and Marisha is a really great scholar, activist, professor, poet. 162 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,439 Speaker 1: She has a lot of jobs and she is most 163 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: recently the co editor with UM an organizer named Adrian 164 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 1: Marie Brown of an anthology called Octavia's Brood. Science fiction 165 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: stories from social justice movements which comes out this spring 166 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: from a K Press, And the whole idea of this 167 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: anthology is to collect stories of visionary fiction and visionary 168 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 1: fiction UM is a is a term to sort of 169 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 1: differentiate it from science fiction that doesn't deal with rethinking 170 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 1: the world and feminist shoes and social justice issues and 171 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:07,439 Speaker 1: focuses on basically, how can fiction help us rethink the 172 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 1: world that we live in? UM? And they call science 173 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: fiction and exploring ground a laboratory to try new tactics, 174 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: strategies and vision without real world costs, so you can 175 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: kind of explore in your imagination what could society look like? 176 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: What could the world we live in be like? UM. 177 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,719 Speaker 1: Since we've been talking a lot about Ursula Lagwin in 178 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: her article in In Bitch, which is called Rewriting the Future, 179 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: Willie that Marisia quotes Ursula Lagwin's speech that she gave 180 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,599 Speaker 1: last year at the National Book Awards ceremony. And you 181 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: might have heard of this speech because it went viral. 182 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: It was a really big deal. And in the in 183 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: the speech she talks about UM basically that we need 184 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 1: writers who can force us to to re examine ourselves 185 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: and to rethink the world that we think about and 186 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: who can as she says, remember freedom and la gweno 187 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 1: on to say, we live in capitalism, its power seems inescapable, 188 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: but then started the divine right of kings. Any human 189 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,839 Speaker 1: power can be resisted and changed by human beings, and 190 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: Leader writes in her article that that is precisely why 191 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: we need science fiction. But it allows us to imagine 192 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: possibilities outside of what exists today, and that's powerful, and 193 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 1: so as an organizing tool, you can use science fiction 194 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 1: to say, Okay, we don't like the world we live 195 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: in right now, there's all these problems with it. Where 196 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: could we look to as an answer. Well, in one 197 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: of the exercises that you all talked about on UM, 198 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 1: both on the panel that you hosted and on the 199 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: propaganda episode that she was on, was examining existence science 200 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: fiction or even just pop culture like the Simpsons and 201 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:53,319 Speaker 1: sort of using existing science fiction to reimagine that. In 202 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: one of the examples you talked about was with Star Wars, 203 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: remembering the Droids, what about the droid or Another example 204 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:06,839 Speaker 1: on the Octavia's Brewed blog was of the Orcs in 205 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: Lord of the Rings collectively rising up because if they 206 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:12,679 Speaker 1: rise up and organized, then of course more to or 207 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: would be no more. So I was just curious to 208 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: get your thoughts on um not only creating new science fiction, 209 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: but maybe using existing science fiction as and reimagining that 210 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: as another kind of accessible tool, especially for again, for 211 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: for newbies like Caroline and me who might not be 212 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: so familiar. I love the idea of supporting the striking orcs. 213 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,439 Speaker 1: You know, that's really exciting and with a little folding 214 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: ticket signs kind of cute or or freedom. Now, um, 215 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: well there isn't you know, a science fiction there's Uh, 216 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,679 Speaker 1: there's a very healthy tradition of fan fiction of people 217 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: writing their own stories about the shows. Um. And that's 218 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 1: especially apparent when sort of the storylines don't pan out 219 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: the way you want too, or and you sort of 220 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: see characters and you want to know more from them. Um. 221 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 1: I mean a lot of our current sort of culture 222 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:09,719 Speaker 1: of fan fiction, which is so robust and so many 223 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: people are publishing their own stories. A lot of it 224 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 1: begins with Star Trek, with people writing their own sort 225 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 1: of reimaginings of of Star Trek episodes because they wanted 226 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 1: to see different storylines develop. And I think that that's 227 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: great that, you know, if you want to see more 228 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: from these characters or um or different people who were 229 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: left out of the stories, or you want to see 230 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: what would happen if they want if they were suddenly 231 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: confronted with their own problems, fan fiction is a great 232 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:40,479 Speaker 1: way to explore those things. Well, in terms of exploring 233 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: different themes, I'm interested in what you think in terms 234 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: of how science fiction in general and visionary fiction in 235 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:51,080 Speaker 1: particular affect our views on things like gender, race, age, 236 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: and even society at large, and how that might work 237 00:13:54,800 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: differently from reading just you know, quote unquote regular contempory, 238 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: a fiction about recognizable systems and lifestyles. Well, I think 239 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 1: that's science fiction personally, like drove me in in a 240 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: way that contemporary fiction doesn't always do. You know, I'm 241 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: so drawn into these juicy stories of of other worlds 242 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: and other cultures that it kind of like slips it 243 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: slips me into the tow rethinking my own society instead 244 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: of hitting me over have a head with it in 245 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: a super heavy handed way. And I think a really 246 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: good book to bring up in this example is Octavia 247 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: Butler's book Kindred. This is probably her best known book. 248 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: You might have read it in school. A lot of 249 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: people read in school. Its Polish nine and it's about 250 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: a black woman in United States who falls back in time. 251 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: So she's an accidental time traveler. And I could see, 252 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 1: you know, kids get getting excited about this, like, oh, 253 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: it's a time travel story. I get excited about this. 254 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: I want to know about her time travel story. So 255 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: she falls back in time the nineteenth century in Maryland, 256 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: where she meets her ancestors who are enslaved people. And 257 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: the narrative really makes you think about sort of how uh, 258 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: how these stories can make us imagine a different future 259 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: that like a black female time traveler shows up in 260 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: a slaveholding state and says that in the future, the 261 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: slaves are free. Like that sound sound as wild to 262 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: them as it would if a time traveler showed up 263 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: now and said that in the future, we have no prisons, 264 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: you know, So I think that that kind of narrative 265 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: instead of handing kids a book and telling them, you 266 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: know that this is gonna be about American history, which 267 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: you know, not all that might be into you say, 268 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: this is book about a time traveler exploring alternate pasts 269 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: and re imagine the future and you're like, Wow, cool, 270 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: how exciting. So I just think personally, I think that 271 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: a lot of those sort of elements of science fiction 272 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: really draw in readers in a way that that fiction 273 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: certainly can. Um. But then I think is is powerful 274 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: to science fiction as a genre, and that sort of 275 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: all the limits are off. You know, if you're going 276 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: to explore another world, you can make that culture look 277 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: like whatever you want. You don't have to fit it 278 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: into our existing idea of what of what the world 279 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: looks like, So you can remake ideas of gender and 280 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: sexuality and class, because hey, it's another world. You can 281 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: make it look however you want. Yeah, it seems like 282 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: the genre can be so powerful by removing all of 283 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: the familiar signposts that might otherwise be distracting. Say, if 284 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: you're reading a book about a person in New York, 285 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: you're like, well, no, that's that's not how New York is, 286 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: Whereas in science fiction you can't say, no, this moon 287 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: World is not how Moon World should be because that 288 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: rule book doesn't exist, which is really really neat um. 289 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: As I was reading about this visionary fiction in these 290 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: possible uh future worlds utopias things like that, I also 291 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: got me thinking about how this may or may not 292 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: at all relate to the current popularity of dystopian y 293 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: A fiction. It seems like kids these days and adults 294 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: these days are really into it wouldn't necessarily constitute science fiction, 295 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: but it's still reimagining worlds and bringing up similar kinds 296 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: of issues from time to time. So I was just 297 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:18,159 Speaker 1: wondering what your insights were on that. I think it. 298 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: I think it counts to science fiction that there's a 299 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: lot of sort of dystopian y a out there right 300 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: now that deals with a lot of these these issues, 301 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: and I think they're popular because, um, they feel a 302 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 1: little bit familiar. Often, you know, it's teenage. The characters 303 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: are often teenagers who are sort of going through teenage 304 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 1: troubles of trying to fit in and trying to deal 305 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 1: with their parents, but they've got the added issues of 306 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: their in dystopian society is falling apart and everyone's about 307 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: to kill each other, and so you know, there's there's 308 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 1: a couple of good examples of this. There's a there's 309 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: an author I really like named Nelo Hopkinson um and 310 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 1: their work focuses on sort of teens and a and 311 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:03,919 Speaker 1: in a slightly changed society where suddenly everything starts getting weird. 312 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: You know, there's um like sort of weird and powerful 313 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 1: forces that show up and everyone gets weird different powers, 314 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: um and that. But it's actually a story about sort 315 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: of being a teenager and grappling with the world and 316 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: trying to figure out where you fit in and trying 317 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: to deal with the stuff that that you're handed at 318 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: at birth, like um, like your grace and your parents 319 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: and your family, and trying to fit that into this 320 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: weird changing world. Another example I really like is um 321 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 1: a BBC show called Misfits, which is about a group 322 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: of rather surly teenagers who are doing community service. They're 323 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 1: like on probation and they've been sentenced community service and 324 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: then there's a freak lightning storm and they all inherit 325 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: um really bad superpowers, and so they like have to 326 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 1: deal with having these kind of cursed superpowers and how 327 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: they've changed their bodies while they're still trying to like 328 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 1: get along with each other and get along with the world. 329 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 1: And I think that that's a story that like young 330 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:04,120 Speaker 1: people really relate to, where you're we're trying to deal with, 331 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 1: you know, your body changing and in your social situation 332 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: changing and trying to figure out how you fit into 333 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 1: the world, which also makes you afflict on why the 334 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:13,919 Speaker 1: world is the way it is and how a lot 335 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: of it is really screwed up. Well, So we've talked 336 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: a lot about imagining and how books like this help 337 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: us imagine alternatives, and I'm interested in hearing about some 338 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 1: of the things that you are imagining because you know, um, 339 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: we've seen a lot of elements of past science fiction 340 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 1: come true in our world. We have touch screens, we 341 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 1: do have big Brother in the n s a UM, 342 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: And I was wondering what elements of social justice science fiction, 343 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: or really any science fiction you've seen come true or 344 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 1: that you might predict or hope come true in the future. 345 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 1: Oh geez, this is a tough question because the stuff 346 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 1: I read about is really dark, but you don't want 347 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: it to come true. It's often more like like a 348 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,880 Speaker 1: path that I don't I hope we kind of don't take. 349 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: A lot of the science fiction I read is sort 350 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: of deals with a Earth or an earthlike planet where 351 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 1: there's been massive climate change and so much of the 352 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: race has died off, and how do these scrappy survivors 353 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 1: come together in in this horrible time, and so I 354 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: hope that that doesn't happen, you know that that sort 355 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: of when I think about the future, I can't help 356 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: but get a little or very cynical, you know. It 357 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:44,119 Speaker 1: doesn't like touch screens aside. I feel like, you know, 358 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: as as a as a human race, we're not going 359 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: to a to a good place in the next hundred 360 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: years because of the way that we've been treating the 361 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 1: planet and building our societies on inequality. And so in 362 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 1: these the works that I read are often more of 363 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,880 Speaker 1: a cautionary tale of things you don't want to have happened. So, 364 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 1: for example, a classic example of this would be Margaret 365 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,439 Speaker 1: Atwood's Handmaid's Tale, which a lot of people read in 366 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 1: school UM, which is about a very controlled and police 367 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:17,959 Speaker 1: society where women's reproduction is tightly controlled and there are 368 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 1: certain women who are assigned to be breeders basically um. 369 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: And this speaks a lot to our current politics around 370 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 1: reproductive rights, policing of women's bodies, and the lack of 371 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: of women to have the ability to choose their reproductive healthcare. 372 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: And so when you read, when you read a story 373 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: that like a Handmaid's Tale, that envisions what this is 374 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,919 Speaker 1: going to look like a hundred years from now, or 375 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: if things get to the extreme. It makes you. It 376 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,479 Speaker 1: makes me at least reflect on current politics and be like, 377 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 1: oh jeez, this is where it's going and we need 378 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 1: to stop right now. And so I think a lot 379 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: of these stories can be sort of inspirational horrible tales 380 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:58,400 Speaker 1: from the future, sort of cautionary tales what not to do, 381 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 1: better pay it to engine or else or else we're 382 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 1: doomed or else be no big deal, We're just doomed. 383 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: So I do love that outfits on Star Trek. If 384 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:13,880 Speaker 1: we could get one thing in the future, I would 385 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: love like a Hora's dress, and yeah, that'd be good. Um, 386 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: but that's maybe space travel maybe. But I kind of 387 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: think we should fix our own planet first. That's if 388 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: I can go off on a little bit of a 389 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: rant about the movie Interstellar. So I did not like that. 390 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that movie. I was like, it felt 391 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: like time stopped in the movie. I was like, we're 392 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 1: in the fifth dimension, we are here, and we're stuck 393 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: with Matthew McConaughey. So I mean that movie, I think 394 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 1: it was really the whole basic premise of that film 395 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 1: was upsetting to me. If you haven't seen it. The 396 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: film is basically like, there's massive climate change on Earth. 397 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 1: Everything is dust, horrible dust. The fields have turned to dust. 398 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: And so a band of of can do scientists sort 399 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 1: of make a rocket ship to send humans to another 400 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,479 Speaker 1: planet to try and colonize another planet? And there are 401 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: somehow with like four or five hours of mishaps in 402 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: the middle there, and but the the but the whole 403 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 1: framing idea of it is we could we should use 404 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: science to find another planet to colonize. And I'm like, guys, 405 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 1: why don't you use your science to try and fix 406 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: our own planet? That's I thought that that was gonna be. 407 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: Like the thrilling conclusion of the film is that actually 408 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,479 Speaker 1: we figured out a way to to improve our own 409 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 1: atmosphere and our own like way of approaching um agriculture 410 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 1: that's more sustainable. We've we've don't need to go to 411 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 1: space after all. Uh, that was not the point of 412 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,199 Speaker 1: the film. But then, but then Jessica Chastain wouldn't get 413 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 1: a chance to ugly cry on camera? Can't you ugly 414 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: cry over like the carbon in the atmosphere? Apparently not? 415 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 1: I want you to re edit Interstellar, because I haven't 416 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: seen it and I only want to watch your re 417 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: envisioning it now. I felt I felt a lot better 418 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 1: about Interstellar once I imagined it to be a group 419 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: of five short films. UM. That helped me like it 420 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 1: a little bit more. But anyway, well to possibly and 421 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: our discussion more of a hopeful note not in the 422 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 1: dust and Jessica Chastain's tears, there was one quote that 423 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 1: I wanted to get your feedback on because to me, 424 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 1: it's really bold and hopeful and says a lot about 425 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,919 Speaker 1: this whole the importance of visionary fiction. And it's the 426 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 1: mission statement of will lead to Emeritia and Adrian, Marie 427 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:46,439 Speaker 1: Brown and Octavia's Brewed and they write, we believe it 428 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 1: is our right and responsibility to right ourselves into the future. 429 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: And that to me sounds quite promising and hopeful, and 430 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,640 Speaker 1: I just wanted to get your take on that. Yeah, 431 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: I think that's a really beautiful statement that that sums 432 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 1: up a couple of things. And one is just a 433 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: general lack of of diversity of representation in fiction, including 434 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,640 Speaker 1: science fiction. UM, where a lot of people these days, 435 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 1: especially people of color, are saying or represented in these stories. 436 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: We need to make our own stories to tell to 437 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 1: make sure that sort of race isn't isn't an absent 438 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: artifact in the future. Or oftentimes there's science fiction movies 439 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,400 Speaker 1: and film and books where almost everybody in the movie 440 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,159 Speaker 1: book is white, and you're like, wait, how is this 441 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,399 Speaker 1: the future? That's that's what happened here, that's weird, um. 442 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: And then the other aspect of that that's more philosophical, 443 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: is that to write ourselves into the future, as they say, 444 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 1: is we should try and imagine the kinds of societies 445 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: and the kinds of um cultures that we want to 446 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: exist in in the future. And I think science fiction 447 00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 1: is a great tool for that, and the visionary fiction 448 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 1: is a great tool for that because we can imagine 449 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 1: sort of what is the future world that we want 450 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 1: to have, and can we write fiction about that now? 451 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: That gets people thinking and gets and freeze up people's 452 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: imaginations to sort of look at the world and all 453 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:15,120 Speaker 1: the horrible things that are going on in it now 454 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 1: and think, how can we change this? What kind of 455 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: better future look like? Well, in your answer, too, touched 456 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 1: on something that we didn't directly ask you about, but 457 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 1: that we talk about all of the time on the podcast, 458 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: which is what happens and how things change when you 459 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 1: bring more diversity to the table and more perspectives. And 460 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 1: that came to mind when you were talking about earths, 461 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 1: like Hey Laguin writing about you know, this futuristic theme 462 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:46,919 Speaker 1: of gender and what that means, what would it mean 463 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: to not have gender and the fact that we have 464 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 1: a woman of color, Octavia Butler, who is touching on 465 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 1: all of these themes. So, how does science fiction change 466 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: when you bring more diversity to the table. It sounds 467 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 1: like it, only it gets better and better. And that's 468 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: actually a central theme of Octavia Butler's books, sort of 469 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 1: a central idea around a lot of her books is 470 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 1: that diversity helps society. That instead of squashing diversity or 471 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: saying we need we need a one track vision for 472 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,239 Speaker 1: how this should go, which is often how a lot 473 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,439 Speaker 1: of science fiction is oriented, where there's like, you know, 474 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 1: one one surviving hero who saves the world, um by 475 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: by doing some sort of courageous violent act like blowing 476 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: up the Death Star. Instead of saying it's on it's 477 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: on this one guy to save the world, or it's 478 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: on this one surviving government to change society. A lot 479 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: of what Octavia Butler's writing is about this how diversity 480 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: actually makes us stronger. She actually has a great vampire 481 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,679 Speaker 1: science fiction novel UM called Fledgling, which is about a 482 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:55,160 Speaker 1: group of vampires and they Their whole idea is that 483 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 1: the mixing of sort of different abilities such as vampire 484 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 1: abilities uh with with humans with normal human abilities makes 485 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: the makes the society stronger. But people are afraid of it, 486 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 1: and they don't like change, and they don't like new ideas, 487 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 1: and they don't like the idea of sort of uh 488 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: decentralized course of action that doesn't have a specific clear 489 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: plan that ends in blowing something up, and so people 490 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,199 Speaker 1: often fear that, and so actv are a lot of 491 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,399 Speaker 1: the writing. A lot of her work centers around oh, 492 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,880 Speaker 1: a diversity of ideas and a diversity of biology can 493 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: help make ours a whole culture stronger. I don't want 494 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: to make you repeat yourself, but I would love to 495 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 1: hear some recommendations for books or TV or movies or 496 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: comic books or anything um that you feel would really 497 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: make an impression on science fiction newbies or visionary fiction 498 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: newbies who are looking to sort of get a start 499 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: reading this genre. Okay, this is a tough task because 500 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: there's so much good stuff out there. So I'm just 501 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: gonna talk about what I like. And you two already 502 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: mentioned that it's in the movie Alien. I like Alien 503 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: a lot. I think that's a good place to start. 504 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: With the tales of Ellen ripley Um, I think I 505 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: also I like to read a lot of books, and 506 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: so I would recommend the three authors that we've talked 507 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: about today, Ursula La Gwin her book The Left Hand 508 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: of Darkness or the one I talked about on the 509 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: show today that Dispossessed are both great Um and then 510 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 1: Uhtvia Butler. Um My kind of book of hers is 511 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: called The Parable of the Sower, and I think that's 512 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: a really good place to start. It's a it's a 513 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: really interesting story that grabs you about dystopian future l 514 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: A and how a young girl sort of manages to 515 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: survive and in a hellish culture there. Um. And then 516 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 1: Margaret Atwood who wrote the book Handmaid's Tale, and I 517 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: also love her work, Oryx and Craik I would I 518 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: would recommend all three of those authors, um for people 519 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: who are new to science fiction and want to check 520 00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: something out. YEP, great. I know that I am adding 521 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: after talking to you and reading it for this episode, 522 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: I am adding so many books and movies to my list. Yeah. 523 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 1: We do a summer book episode every year on the podcast, 524 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: and we might just have to make it sci fi 525 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: theme this year, Caroline, if only to make sure that 526 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: we read all this stuff and also get input from 527 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: our listeners, because I know that we have some sci 528 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: fi fans listening right now. Yeah. As much as I 529 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 1: reread Enders Game, there is more out there. Well, Sarah, 530 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on the podcast and 531 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 1: sharing all of your knowledge with us. Was there anything 532 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: about sci fi, visionary fiction, social justice that we didn't 533 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 1: specifically ask you about but that you would like to add? 534 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: I think you covered it pretty well. Oh well, thank you. 535 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: Thank you covered it pretty well, Sarah. Well, Sarah. If 536 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: people want to learn more about you about Bitch and Papaganda, 537 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 1: where can they go to find out more? Oh? I 538 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: think the best place to go is our website bitch 539 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: media dot org um. And you can listen to the 540 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: podcast if you go to iTunes and you just look 541 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: up bitch Radio, which is fun to type in, uh, 542 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: you can see the podcast. It comes out every week 543 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: we have a new show and it's all about feminism 544 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: pop culture, so movies, books, TV music from a feminist perspective. Um, 545 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 1: people like your show. Our show deals a lot of the 546 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: the same issues, and I think people will like it 547 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: because I like your show. I love it, so yeah, 548 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 1: and we like papaganda, so they will love it. Listeners, 549 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: you have no choice now other than to go and 550 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: listen to Propaganda and check out bitch Media, which again 551 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 1: we cite all of the time, all the time on 552 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: the podcast. So thanks again, Sarah, Hey, thank you so much, 553 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: you too. So now, listeners, I know there are some 554 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: science fiction fans out there and we want to hear 555 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: from you. Who is your favorite science fiction author or 556 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: your favorite sci fi title or see and do you 557 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: think that science fiction or visionary fiction can possibly change 558 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 1: the world. Let us know all of your thoughts. Mom 559 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our email address. 560 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or 561 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple of messages 562 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 1: to share with you when we come right back from 563 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: a quick break and now back to the show. So 564 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 1: I've got a couple of letters to share about our 565 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 1: stalking one oh one episode, because we keep getting so 566 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 1: many of them and really want to keep everybody informed 567 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: about the kind of feedback that we've been getting. So 568 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: here is one from Amy who writes like basically every listener, 569 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 1: I'm always looking for a reason to contact you, amazing ladies. 570 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 1: And finally here's one, a super depressing one, but still 571 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: I work as a criminal prosecutor and listened with great 572 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: interest here discussion about protective orders for victims of stalking. 573 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 1: I strongly encourage victims to brave the bureaucracy and get 574 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: a protective order. Here's why. The burden of proof for 575 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 1: a protective order is much lower than it is for 576 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: a criminal charge. Proving something beyond a reasonable doubt is 577 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 1: much more difficult than proving something to a preponderance of 578 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 1: the evidence. That means it's going to be easier for 579 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: a victim to get an sp O than it is 580 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 1: for me to prove a stalking charge. In addition, many 581 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: state stalking laws include elements that are incredibly difficult to 582 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 1: prove and won't apply in many stalking cases. For example, 583 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: some states require that we show a victim was in 584 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 1: fear of death or physical injury based on the stalker's conduct, 585 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: which may not be present in every case. As your 586 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: podcast explained. However, most states also have a statute against 587 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: violating a stalking protective order, and those are generally much 588 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 1: much easier to prove, especially where a victim is diligent 589 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: and collecting information about her stalkers continued contacts with her. 590 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 1: Then all we need is the order and the of 591 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 1: the contact, and we're good to go. Thus, if a 592 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 1: victim gets an SPO and it's violated, we can prove 593 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: that more easily than a stalking charge and give the 594 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: victim some measure of protection through a criminal conviction like 595 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: jail time, probation or continued no contact orders. Getting protective 596 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 1: orders can be really intimidating, but many communities have domestic 597 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: violence shelters that employ legal advocates who can help victims 598 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 1: way through the paperwork and understand the court process. I 599 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,799 Speaker 1: always encourage victims to seek that assistance if available, and 600 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,200 Speaker 1: to persevere. Thank you so much for your work, and 601 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,839 Speaker 1: thank you for your work and for your insight, Amy, 602 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,399 Speaker 1: You really appreciate it well. I have an email here 603 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: from Katrin. She says, I'm a first time listener and 604 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 1: stalking one on one prompted me to email you and 605 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: let you know about my own experience with stalking and 606 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 1: how my roommate and I got the big kiss off. 607 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,799 Speaker 1: As my father, a former police officer, calls it. My 608 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,360 Speaker 1: roommate had made friends with a gentleman who was from Japan. 609 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 1: I should also note that at the time she had 610 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:58,799 Speaker 1: a boyfriend and I didn't. She and I had met 611 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 1: studying abroad there and enjoyed making friends from that location 612 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,799 Speaker 1: to practice our language skills. After having been friends with 613 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:06,279 Speaker 1: him for a few months, he ended up in a 614 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,879 Speaker 1: roommateless situation and needed a place to crash. He asked 615 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 1: if he could crash on our couch for two weeks 616 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 1: while he looked for a new apartment. Our third roommate 617 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 1: and I had no problem with it because we often 618 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 1: had various friends from random countries or states crashing while 619 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 1: they visited the city we lived in. In terms of 620 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 1: a temporary roommate, he was pretty terrible, but in normal 621 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 1: ways MESSI played music too loud, too late at night, 622 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: but he never actually seemed strange. It wasn't until the 623 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 1: two weeks was up and he had left that we 624 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 1: got suspicious. At the time, we've been talking about where 625 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 1: she and I were going to live once our lease 626 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,319 Speaker 1: was up. He would often be around when we were 627 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: talking about it, and somehow misunderstood and thought we would 628 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 1: all live together. Her boyfriend ended up kicking him out 629 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 1: for us. Soon after that, she started to receive texts 630 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 1: thinks she should be with him instead of with her boyfriend. 631 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 1: He also texted me things like hey, what's up, which 632 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 1: I would ignore. It progressively got weirder. First he accused 633 00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:58,760 Speaker 1: me of not being his friend, and he kept declaring 634 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 1: his love for her. Then he started to say he 635 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:03,399 Speaker 1: wanted to be with me and I should date him. 636 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: We both received threats of rape and violence, although hers 637 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 1: were far worse than mine. Finally, we went to the 638 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: police station and told the officer what was going on 639 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 1: and that we wanted to file a restraining order. He 640 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 1: asked if either of us were romantically involved with him, 641 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 1: and we said no, and I could tell he didn't 642 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,840 Speaker 1: believe us. He then informed us the guy would have 643 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: had to actually come on our property and physically assault 644 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 1: us to file a police report, but we could actually 645 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 1: go to the courthouse and file a restraining order. But 646 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,399 Speaker 1: without a police report it costs three dollars to file one, 647 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,319 Speaker 1: so we never did, and we did eventually move. And 648 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 1: new phones make it really easy to block people, so 649 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 1: it's worked out. Every time he changes his number, though 650 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 1: I do get a call or text from him, but 651 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 1: I just block it. My father, the retired cops, said 652 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 1: that if we had asked for the officers badge number 653 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,080 Speaker 1: to talk to his superior officer and showed him the 654 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: text and tell him it was a threat of bodily harm, 655 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 1: which is illegal, we could have gotten it filed. So 656 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,360 Speaker 1: I thought that might be good information for your listeners, 657 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 1: and it is catrent and said thank you so much 658 00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 1: for writing in. We appreciate it, and thanks to everybody 659 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 1: who's written into us. Mom Stuff at how stuff works 660 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 1: dot com is our email address and re links to 661 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 1: all of our social media as well as all of 662 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 1: our blogs, videos, and podcast with this one, head on 663 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com and 664 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: be sure to check out Sarah Merk and Papaganda over 665 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:27,799 Speaker 1: at bitch media dot org as well for more on 666 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,320 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff 667 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 1: works dot com