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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Weird House Cinema. Rewind, this is Rob Lamb.

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Speaker 1: We have a vacation week here for the show, so

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Speaker 1: this is the perfect time to roll out a Weird

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Speaker 1: House Cinema two parter. This is going to be part

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Speaker 1: one of our episode on the late David Lynch's Dune

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Speaker 1: from nineteen eighty four. This episode originally published three eight,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, so we put this out before the

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Speaker 1: passing of the great David Lynch. So keep that in

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Speaker 1: mind as you roll into it and appreciate this weird

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Speaker 1: and wonderful picture.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Weird House Cinema. This is Rob Lamb.

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Speaker 3: And this is Joe McCormick, and oh boy, have we

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Speaker 3: got a movie to talk about today. We're pretty sure

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Speaker 3: this is going to be our first and perhaps only

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Speaker 3: ever two part episode of Weird House Cinema. And you

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Speaker 3: might be thinking what movie could possibly cause them to

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Speaker 3: split Weird House Cinema into two parts. It's David Lynch's

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Speaker 3: Dune from nineteen eighty four.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, we normally try and keep Weird House,

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Speaker 1: as you know, a single episode installment situation. But the

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Speaker 1: cast is too rich here, the weirdness is too deep.

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Speaker 1: And with release of Dnis Villeneuve's Dune Part two, obviously

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Speaker 1: Dune is in the air once more. Everybody's going crazy

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Speaker 1: for this film, and rightfully so, and that gives us

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Speaker 1: the excuse. All right, everybody's digging Dune right now. We

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Speaker 1: can do a two parter on Weird House Cinema about

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Speaker 1: David Lynch's.

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Speaker 3: Adaptation, Wait did you see the new one? Yes?

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Speaker 1: Over the weekend just slammed the Dune. My son had

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Speaker 1: never seen Dune Part one, so we rewatched that with him,

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Speaker 1: and then we all went up to the movie theater

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Speaker 1: for you know, three hours and Dune Part two with

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Speaker 1: a full cinematic experience. We didn't get the popcorn bucket,

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Speaker 1: but we still had a great time. It's definitely a

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Speaker 1: film worth seeing on a big screen.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm very jealous of that experience because I am

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Speaker 3: so excited to see it. I haven't been able to

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Speaker 3: make it out yet because we you know, we got

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Speaker 3: a seventeen month old. We don't get out to movies

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Speaker 3: these days. But as soon as it hits streaming, I'm

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Speaker 3: going to be there and I'm very excited about that

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Speaker 3: because I really did love the twenty twenty one Dune,

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Speaker 3: and that one really surpassed my expectations in so many ways.

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Speaker 3: Because Robert, you know, we've long been fans of the

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Speaker 3: book and talked about it on the show all the time,

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Speaker 3: and have been in certain ways fans of the movie

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Speaker 3: we're talking about in this episode today. But it is

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Speaker 3: not a book that lends itself to the screen, you know,

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Speaker 3: is like a It is a wonderful novel, but it

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Speaker 3: almost feels like it was written to be specifically difficult

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Speaker 3: to adapt to the movie format.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is a It's a complex novel, full of

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Speaker 1: interstellar feudalism, like psychotropic drugs, sandworms, lots of plots within plots,

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Speaker 1: lots of conversations, and then when the action does take place,

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Speaker 1: when there are big action spectacles, they generally happen off

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Speaker 1: the page and are referred to after the fact, you know.

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Speaker 1: So it's not one of these things where you can

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Speaker 1: just like PLoP it on the table and like this

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Speaker 1: is what we're filming today.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: It's it's it has a reputation for being a difficult adaptation,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, credit where credits due Denny v nailed it.

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Speaker 1: I think he nailed it in part one and then

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Speaker 1: part two he really seals the deal and it's it's

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Speaker 1: a true spectacle with the caveat. I have to say, like,

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Speaker 1: I've always been a Doom Book first fan, and I

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Speaker 1: don't mean that in a snobby way, and I mean

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Speaker 1: that in like that's how I read it for the

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Speaker 1: first time, That's how I explored the world for the

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Speaker 1: first time, and therefore, like that's always my starting point.

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Speaker 1: And given the difficul culties of adapting it, you know,

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Speaker 1: you have to go into it with the expectation that

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Speaker 1: any filmmaker, regardless of what they're working with, they're going

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Speaker 1: to have to pick and choose, as with most adaptations,

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Speaker 1: to varying degrees, but you know, you're going to have

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Speaker 1: to pick and choose, like what aspects of Doon you're

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Speaker 1: going to realize on the screen, what aspects of the

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Speaker 1: characters you're going to realize, and what you're going to

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Speaker 1: condense and what you're going to leave out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean, I think some stories do just

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Speaker 3: naturally translate to the screen more easily if they're I

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Speaker 3: don't know, you know, if the story is written more

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Speaker 3: like a play, like if it's very dialogue driven already,

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Speaker 3: if you know, if a lot of the story is

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Speaker 3: contained already in the exchanges between the characters, and so

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Speaker 3: if it's already kind of an external story Doune I

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Speaker 3: think is really difficult for at least a couple of

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Speaker 3: reasons I can think of. One is that understanding the

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Speaker 3: story relies so heavily on like this deep understanding of

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Speaker 3: the setting and the world, which liies on a glossary actually,

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Speaker 3: like there's you know, an encyclopedia. So it's very fun

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Speaker 3: to explore in written format and to like learn all

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Speaker 3: the politics and the technology and you know, the strange

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Speaker 3: world that Frank Herbert created. But it's hard to get

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Speaker 3: all of that into a movie format without having just

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Speaker 3: big dumps of exposition, which unfortunately the Lynch movie does have.

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Speaker 3: There are scenes where there's just characters sitting around explaining

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Speaker 3: or even voiceover narrating lots of stuff about politics and

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Speaker 3: technology and what happens in the Dune universe, and it

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Speaker 3: does get kind of overwhelming at times. Another thing I

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Speaker 3: would say, though, is that in addition to the importance

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Speaker 3: of the setting, there's also just a lot of internal

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Speaker 3: stuff in Dune, like characters having visions, thinking through things.

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Speaker 3: A lot of the drama is within characters' minds, and

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Speaker 3: so that's also kind of difficult to externalize in a

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Speaker 3: way that the viewer can participate in without just having

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Speaker 3: people again doing like voiceover of their internal monologue, which

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Speaker 3: Lynch's adaptation also does and is occasionally funny.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, especially. We ended up watching it when I rewatched

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Speaker 1: this with my wife, who was who's I was surprised

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Speaker 1: she was game for it. Monday night, the day after

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Speaker 1: watching Dune Part two, we watched David Lynch's Dune and

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Speaker 1: we watched it with the subtitles because I'd read somewhere

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Speaker 1: someone advised like, this is a good choice because you

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Speaker 1: can keep a little better track of who's saying what.

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Speaker 1: But there's a lot of internal voice colon once being said,

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Speaker 1: which makes it a little little more hilarious at times

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Speaker 1: when this occurs.

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Speaker 3: Yes, especially well, actually, one of the funniest parts of

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Speaker 3: it is that you will often get a close up

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Speaker 3: of the actor making like a serious face while we

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Speaker 3: see them.

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Speaker 1: Thinking, Yeah, it's a hard one to pull off. But

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Speaker 1: that being said, you know, if you're gonna do it,

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Speaker 1: commit to it fully, don't do it just in a

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Speaker 1: couple of places where it's like, oh, they lost track

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Speaker 1: of what they were doing. This scene wasn't working, so

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Speaker 1: they're going to do a little bit of this. No, No,

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Speaker 1: it's throughout the film, so it's in a way it's

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Speaker 1: more forgivable since it's ubiquitous.

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Speaker 3: But hey, we're not here to knock the nineteen eighty

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Speaker 3: four Dune because I would say that I'm going to

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Speaker 3: be forthright and acknowledged this movie has a lot of shortcomings.

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Speaker 3: There are many things about it that don't work. But

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Speaker 3: also I love it. I love David Lynch's Dune.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, is it the most faithful adaptation?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 1: Is it? Is it the best? Well, it's hard, hard

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Speaker 1: to make an argument for that, perhaps, But is it

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Speaker 1: absolutely weird? Is it? Is it consistently entertaining? Absolutely?

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Speaker 3: Yes, Yes, it's also shorter.

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Speaker 1: In caveat here we are going to be only dealing

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Speaker 1: with the theatrical cut of the film, the only cut

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Speaker 1: that that David Lynch ever, you know, acknowledged and approved,

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Speaker 1: and we'll get back into that later on. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's like it's it's a reasonable, reasonably linked film. That's

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Speaker 1: also part of the problem we'll discuss. But yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: it's shorter than some of your other options, right.

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Speaker 3: So on the downside, that does mean, especially in the

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Speaker 3: first half of the movie, you do get a lot

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Speaker 3: of scenes of incredibly just heavy deposits of exposition, where

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Speaker 3: there's like a narrator just telling you a lot of

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Speaker 3: stuff really fast, and I think, especially if you were

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Speaker 3: not already familiar with the story, you'd just be like,

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Speaker 3: what what what? All the like, it just comes thick

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Speaker 3: and fast when you're not really ready for it. Often,

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Speaker 3: I think, so that is a problem with trying to

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Speaker 3: cram this much story into this short of a run time.

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Speaker 3: On the other hand, given how much they fit into

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Speaker 3: this short of a runtime, I am shocked how well

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Speaker 3: it works.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I imagine we had the same experience on this,

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Speaker 1: but because I think you have something that notes to

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Speaker 1: this effect. But a lot of the reviews for this

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Speaker 1: film make a point of saying it's incomprehensible. You have

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Speaker 1: no idea what's going on at any given point. I

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Speaker 1: did not have that experience rewatching the film, and I

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Speaker 1: don't think you did either, obviously, because we know the

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Speaker 1: major beats we know what's going to happen. We know

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Speaker 1: who everyone is supposed.

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Speaker 3: To be, right, so we can't really come at the

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Speaker 3: movie cold. Like I'd read the novel before I saw

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Speaker 3: this movie, so I already knew the story. So it's

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Speaker 3: kind of hard for me to imagine what it would

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Speaker 3: be like not being familiar going in. Though. When I

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Speaker 3: try to imagine that, I can say like, yeah, I

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Speaker 3: think this opening narration would be a little would be

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Speaker 3: a little hard to get past. You'd be like, wait,

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Speaker 3: I can't keep track of everything. You're saying, what's the

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Speaker 3: spacing guild? Huh?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And people have these issues too, even with the

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Speaker 1: more recent adaptations, Like I remember seeing stuff online where

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Speaker 1: people with the first film were confused and thought that

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Speaker 1: perhaps the Baron was also the Emperor.

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Speaker 3: They were a little.

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Speaker 1: Unclear on that. And I know that my wife initially

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Speaker 1: had some confusion over two different blonde characters in part two.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to reveal who they are, but she

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Speaker 1: was like at least moment, like, wait, are these the

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Speaker 1: same character? No, these are two different characters, And so yeah,

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Speaker 1: this stuff's going to happen anytime you're adapting something so complex. Now,

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Speaker 1: speaking of fitting a lot into a limited runtime. I

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Speaker 1: also just want to quickly note that you know, this

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Speaker 1: movie has been out for a while. It has a

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Speaker 1: cult following. It is a David Lynch movie. There have

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Speaker 1: been multiple great documentaries, books, papers, etc. On this production,

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Speaker 1: on previous attempts at producing Dune for the screen, subsequent productions.

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Speaker 1: We can't possibly get into all of that, but we'll

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Speaker 1: reference a little of it as we go.

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Speaker 3: Have you watched the documentary about Yodorowski's Dune.

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Speaker 1: No. I had read about it plenty before it came out,

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Speaker 1: and I've just never gotten around to watching it. But

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Speaker 1: that is, of course a fascinating slash infamous example of

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Speaker 1: you know, what if? What if jo Darowski had actually

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Speaker 1: made this stupendous semi adaptation of Dune with this just

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Speaker 1: colossally Bonker's cast. I'm glad he didn't end, and not

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Speaker 1: just because I'm protective of Dune to a certain extent,

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Speaker 1: but also because you see the influence of Doune in

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Speaker 1: his later works with Mobius in the Metabaron series. These

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Speaker 1: are graphic novels that Jodowski wrote, and those are tremendously

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Speaker 1: fun and trippy, and they have elements of that kind

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Speaker 1: of like doone feudal psychedelic world, but it's removed from

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Speaker 1: Herbert's novels and it can be its own thing. So

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Speaker 1: I think like ultimately, everything landed for the best.

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Speaker 3: On that regard, that makes sense. So you're saying you'd

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Speaker 3: rather instead of seeing Yodowski like impose his vision upon

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Speaker 3: an adaptation of Dune, you'd rather see him take a

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Speaker 3: bunch of influence from Dune and make his own thing.

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Speaker 1: It's exactly yeah, I think it worked out for the best.

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Speaker 3: Well.

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Speaker 1: On that note, let's go ahead and listen to some

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Speaker 1: trailer audio. Specifically, I believe this is a radio spot.

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Speaker 1: I love it when we can feature a radio spot

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Speaker 1: since it is ideally tuned for the listening audience. Here

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Speaker 1: this one. I found this one online. This was apparently

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Speaker 1: something that aired in Salt Lake City. So let's have

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Speaker 1: a listen.

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Speaker 4: No, the most widely brand talked about and cherished masterpiece

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Speaker 4: of a generation comes to the screen. You I see

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Speaker 4: two great houses.

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Speaker 3: You need.

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Speaker 4: A world that holds creation's greatest treasure.

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Speaker 1: You controls the Spice, controls the universe top.

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Speaker 3: And greatest terrorsts.

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Speaker 4: A world with a mighty the mad all I can

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Speaker 4: see is an attradees that I want to kill and

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Speaker 4: the magical the Sleepers, O my god, we'll have their

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Speaker 4: final battle. A world called doom long lived bit eyes, we.

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Speaker 1: Will kill until no hard conean breezed arocane air.

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Speaker 3: Duel.

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Speaker 4: A world beyond your experience, beyond your imagination.

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Speaker 1: Details about the Dune Adventure in Washington.

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Speaker 4: D C.

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Speaker 1: Are coming soon from Heughter Brussel Pictures Eastern Airlines at

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Speaker 1: one L six A FM KCGL.

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Speaker 3: You know, Rob, I went to rewatch this movie on

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Speaker 3: Max HBO Max, I guess formerly. And Max has a

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Speaker 3: great little thing where it's like, you know, if some

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Speaker 3: of these streaming services do this, they say, Hey, if

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Speaker 3: you liked this movie, you might also like do you

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Speaker 3: want to know what the fan of Dune nineteen eighty

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Speaker 3: four might also like?

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Speaker 1: Let's have it.

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Speaker 3: Okay, it's Dune twenty twenty one. I guess that's not surprising.

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Speaker 3: Leviathan nineteen eighty nine, one of our faves. Yeah, war

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Speaker 3: games and Escape from Laoh from la You know, I've

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Speaker 3: never had the courage to watch Escape from la Oh.

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Speaker 1: Love Carpenter Love Love the cast for a Skate from

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Speaker 1: la and I remember it had a fun soundtrack that

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Speaker 1: came out at the time, but yeah.

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Speaker 3: Not anybody's best work.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we know, speaking of Max, that is also where

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Speaker 1: I ended up rewatching it. But anyone out there, if

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Speaker 1: you want to go watch nineteen eighty four is Dune

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Speaker 1: in full before continuing with these episodes. Yeah, it's also

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Speaker 1: widely available in digital and physical formats anywhere you might

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Speaker 1: want to watch it. Unlike the Sci Fi Mini series,

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Speaker 1: which is a little hard to get your hands on

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Speaker 1: right now, you can definitely get the nineteen eighty four

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Speaker 1: adaptation any way you want to get it. Aero Video

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Speaker 1: put out a very nice Blu ray package of the

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Speaker 1: film in twenty twenty one if you're a collector and

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Speaker 1: or want that physical media.

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Speaker 3: Speaking of I've never seen the Sci Fi mini series,

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Speaker 3: have you?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I watched, well, I watched the first one, and

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Speaker 1: I've only seen bits and pieces of the follow up

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Speaker 1: where they adapted Doune Messiah and Children of Dune, and

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Speaker 1: I remember it being lavish. You know, it has some

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Speaker 1: very great costumes, It has a lot of good casting

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Speaker 1: and and some great casting in places. So as we proceed,

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Speaker 1: I'll at times refer to alternate castings for some of

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Speaker 1: these characters and which ones I like, which ones I didn't,

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Speaker 1: And they did nail it at least on a couple

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Speaker 1: of the castings. So it's it's I don't know how

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Speaker 1: the effects hold up, but the costumes are great and

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Speaker 1: some of the performances are nice.

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Speaker 3: I've never seen it, and in saying this, I don't

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Speaker 3: want to malign it, so maybe it's better than it looks.

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Speaker 3: But in some screenshots or stills I've seen from it,

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Speaker 3: it does kind of have that made for TV look.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, or almost kind of like a film stage

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Speaker 1: production sort of a thing. Yeah yeah. One more thing

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Speaker 1: I want to quickly add about this version of the

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Speaker 1: film that we're watching today. Again, I was kind of

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Speaker 1: a book first fan, and I remember the first time

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Speaker 1: that I bought a copy of Doom at the I

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Speaker 1: think it was a books a million, you know, so

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Speaker 1: it wasn't like a nice cozy local bookstore is one

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Speaker 1: of the wearehouse bookstores. But the cashier was so excited

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Speaker 1: when I brought up the book and she was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you were going to love this. This is a great novel.

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Speaker 1: This is one of the best. And she explained to

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Speaker 1: me that she and her husband were huge fans of Doone,

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Speaker 1: and they were such huge fans that they would watch

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Speaker 1: David Lynch's Doune and at that time it was just

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Speaker 1: the movie. It was the only movie version out. They

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Speaker 1: would watch the movie version every night as they went

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Speaker 1: to sleep, every night, this film. And so I think

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Speaker 1: from an early age, despite the criticisms and rejections of

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Speaker 1: this film that were already out there, it's like I knew.

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Speaker 1: It's like this lady and her husband loved this film

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Speaker 1: and they love the book, so it can't be too

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Speaker 1: far off base. And therefore I think I've always been

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Speaker 1: been more than a little willing to invite aspects of

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Speaker 1: this film and its look and it sound into my

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Speaker 1: head version of Doom.

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Speaker 3: That is fascinating. So literally, as you said, as they

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Speaker 3: go to sleep, so they're like, yeah, drifting off to

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Speaker 3: the to the sounds of like Baron Harconin's doctor singing

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Speaker 3: love songs to his boils as he's poking them with

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Speaker 3: a needle.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, or Baron Harkonen like just laughing maniacally and floating

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Speaker 1: around the room.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's their lullaby. I hope they're still doing it.

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Speaker 1: They're still together and they're still watching David Lynch's Doom

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Speaker 1: every night.

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Speaker 3: Why, Baron, I love your precious diseases.

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Speaker 1: All right, well, let's start getting into the connections here.

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Speaker 1: We're going to tackle everything a little differently here, so

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Speaker 1: you know, first of all, on some of these we're

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Speaker 1: going to try and maybe spend a little less time

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Speaker 1: with them, just because we have such a huge cast

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Speaker 1: to go through. And additionally, we're not going to just

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Speaker 1: divide the episode like normal. We're not going to do

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Speaker 1: like just connections, just cast and crew in this episode

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Speaker 1: and then plot in the next. We're gonna run through

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Speaker 1: like a few key behind the scenes individuals and then

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Speaker 1: we're gonna get into the plot and then talk about

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Speaker 1: the key actors as they appear in the narrative.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I think that is a good approach for a

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Speaker 3: two part Weird House episode.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, we labored over this a little bit and

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Speaker 1: this is this is what we came up with. Okay,

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Speaker 1: all right, let's start at the top.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The director also the writer the adapted screenplay on this

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Speaker 1: one is, of course, David Lynch born nineteen forty six. Now,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to defer to you, Joe on some

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Speaker 1: of the details of David Lynch's filmography and certainly about

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Speaker 1: like the texture of what a Lynchian film is. Because

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Speaker 1: I haven't seen as many David Lynch films. I've basically

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Speaker 1: just seen his Dune. I've seen eraser Head, and I've

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Speaker 1: seen Moholland Drive, but that leaves out a number of

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Speaker 1: like huge films that are highly influential in his sort

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Speaker 1: of like neo noir weird aesthetic.

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Speaker 3: I think if you've seen eraser Head, Mulholland Drive, you

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Speaker 3: have a pretty good idea of what some of his

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Speaker 3: dominant themes are. But we'll come back to.

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Speaker 1: That all right now. At this point in his career,

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Speaker 1: this was only Lynch. This was Lynch's third full length

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Speaker 1: motion picture, following the ultra weird eraser Head in nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy seven, and this was more in keeping with a

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Speaker 1: lot of his previous short film films and nineteen eighties

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Speaker 1: The Elephant Man. You know, I think I also have

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Speaker 1: seen The Elephant Man, but I'm not sure if I've

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Speaker 1: seen The Elephant Man in full. I've at least seen

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Speaker 1: enough of it to know what it's about. That at

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Speaker 1: least was a box office and critical hit.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually haven't seen The Elephant, Man. I've meant

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Speaker 3: too for years. I know it's a widely revered movie.

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Speaker 3: People say it's great. I have seen eraser Head. Eraser

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Speaker 3: Head is It's funny to contrast that with Dune because

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Speaker 3: eraser Head is only barely a narrative film. It is

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Speaker 3: much more like, well, it's sort of an art horror film.

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Speaker 3: I would almost say it is a film about images

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Speaker 3: and feelings and the I would say the main emotion

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Speaker 3: that it conveys is fear and desperation.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a feel good hit for sure. So at

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Speaker 1: this point in David Lynch's career, he was like a

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Speaker 1: hot up and comer. You know, at the time, he

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Speaker 1: was even discussed as a potential director for Return the Jedi.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of big producers were eyeing this guy

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Speaker 1: as you know, as they still do today, you know,

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Speaker 1: hot new director. And then incomes a producer in this

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Speaker 1: case like Dino di Laurentez, who we've has come up

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Speaker 1: on the show multiple times before, you know, major producer

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Speaker 1: of the time period, putting together such epics as Flash Gordon,

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Speaker 1: which we recently talked about on the show. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: he and he was like, definitely the kind of guy

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Speaker 1: who want who was attracted to talent, Like he wanted

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Speaker 1: to bring in someone that that had vision, but would

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Speaker 1: also of course fall in line and play the studio game.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so I think this was not a match made

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Speaker 3: in heaven with David Lynch.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it ended up not to be the case.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we have this film which is such a

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Speaker 1: joy to watch and discuss, and like, this is the

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Speaker 1: trajectory we're on. We can't go back and change it.

404
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Speaker 1: But yeah, while this vision of Done eventually earned a

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Speaker 1: cult following, it was a commercial and critical disaster at

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Speaker 1: the time. Consider it again by many to be just

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Speaker 1: an incomprehensible mess. You look back at like what Ebert

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Speaker 1: said about it, Like everyone was just like this is awful.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Tons of critics at the time said it was

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Speaker 3: impossible to follow the plot, that it was super confusing,

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Speaker 3: they didn't know what was going on. People thought it

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Speaker 3: was like weird and unpleasant. People thought that it looked

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Speaker 3: that despite the fact that it was an incredibly big

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Speaker 3: budget production, like huge, you know, and you can see

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Speaker 3: it in some of the like gorgeous, lavishly realized sets

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Speaker 3: and costumes and all that. Yeah, people did single out

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Speaker 3: that there were parts of it that looked cheap, and

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Speaker 3: I actually do kind of agree there, Like most of

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Speaker 3: the design in it does look amazing, but there are

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Speaker 3: some weird shots that look kind of slapped together in there,

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Speaker 3: and don't know where that comes from. Just generally, critics

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Speaker 3: were very very harsh about it. It made a lot

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Speaker 3: of like worst movie of the year lists and things

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Speaker 3: like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and again, we can't heep all of this

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Speaker 1: on Lynch. The novel is a lot to tackle. There

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Speaker 1: were a lot of cooks he had to deal with here.

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Speaker 1: His initial initial cut of the film apparently came in

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Speaker 1: in over three hours and was eventually cut down. But

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Speaker 1: the producers, and because the producers in the studio wanted

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Speaker 1: more of like a two hour cut. You know, they're like,

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Speaker 1: people need to be able to go to the bathroom again.

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Speaker 1: You know, this is good. We want it to be successful,

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Speaker 1: and this is what you need to have for success.

435
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, they wanted a big commercial hit. They wanted something

436
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,160
Speaker 3: like Star Wars and something that would be a big

437
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 3: sci fi movie that made a lot of money. And

438
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 3: if you know, you make a three hour movie at

439
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:55,879
Speaker 3: the time. The thinking was, nobody's gonna want to see that.

440
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,639
Speaker 3: They don't want to sit there that long. That's it's

441
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:00,880
Speaker 3: a bunch of artsy fartsy stuff. Just you know, cut

442
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:02,880
Speaker 3: it down, just get get get to the action.

443
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,399
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now for context, Denny Vee is combined doing adaptation.

444
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,480
Speaker 1: The recent adaptations come in at more than five hours

445
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,400
Speaker 1: in a length total. That sci fi mini series adaptation

446
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 1: is more than four hours in length if you're just

447
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 1: dealing with the initial cut.

448
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, so there's a lot of story to cram in,

449
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,679
Speaker 3: and it's it's amazing what this movie does with in

450
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,520
Speaker 3: the end, what it's like two and a half hours

451
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:24,880
Speaker 3: or so.

452
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, some numerous cuts were made, new scenes were

453
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:32,359
Speaker 1: apparently filmed, Whole scenes were just cut entirely, or there

454
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 1: there are plenty. There are various points in the film

455
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 1: where they're clearly you're having a character briefly remember a

456
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 1: scene that clearly had to be cut, or they're just

457
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 1: shoehorning just a clip of that scene in so you

458
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 1: see you see the scenes in this final theatrical cut

459
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 1: of David Lynch's Dune. He has long considered the film

460
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 1: a failure, and he generally opts not to discuss it

461
00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 1: in interviews. He disowned the extended TV mirror of the

462
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 1: film and has long dismissed the idea of doing a

463
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,200
Speaker 1: director's cut, at least i've read until very recently.

464
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:06,399
Speaker 3: Now.

465
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 1: I don't know if he just happened to be in

466
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,399
Speaker 1: a really good mood in some of these interviews, but

467
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 1: I've read that he was like, you know, maybe it's

468
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:14,479
Speaker 1: been enough time. Maybe I could look back at it

469
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,199
Speaker 1: and see if there's anything that I could piece back together.

470
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 3: But I don't know.

471
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like we should necessarily get our hopes up.

472
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd be interested to see that. But I remember

473
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 3: reading that David Lynch not only considered the movie of failure,

474
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 3: he was extremely upset by the process of making this

475
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:38,120
Speaker 3: film and the way the producers tampered with in his view,

476
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 3: I think sabotaged his vision for it. And he believed

477
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 3: this to the extent that he said he wished he

478
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 3: had never taken the project at all. Like speaking to

479
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,919
Speaker 3: an interviewer years later, he said, quote, the experience has

480
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,640
Speaker 3: taught me a valuable lesson. I learned I would rather

481
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 3: not make a film than make one where I don't

482
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,159
Speaker 3: have final cut.

483
00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,880
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I think it might have ultimately been

484
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 1: the terrible purpose that he had to face, right because

485
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 1: if he had not directed this film, what if someone

486
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 1: had made a far worse version of Doune Because you

487
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 1: read the reviews and it's like, oh, it couldn't have

488
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 1: been worse. Oh it could have been worse. Oh yeah, oh,

489
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 1: there were undoubtedly worse options out there. So yeah, we

490
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 1: would just been on an entirely different trajectory with science

491
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 1: fiction and with adaptations of Doom.

492
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 3: Well yeah, I mean I think I would have a

493
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 3: hard time disagreeing with somebody who said that this movie

494
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 3: in a sense fails to be a great adaptation of

495
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 3: the novel Dune, that there's a lot of things about

496
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 3: the book that it kind of misses, other things that

497
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 3: it does get in there, but it just kind of

498
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 3: like crams in in a way that doesn't really work.

499
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 3: But it is. There is a lot to love about it,

500
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 3: and a lot of what there is to love about

501
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 3: it is just like the way it is realized as

502
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 3: a kind of David Lynch vision. There's so much like weirdness,

503
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 3: even things that are not in the books at all

504
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,360
Speaker 3: that are just brought in that make it a very

505
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 3: enjoyable movie experience, at least for me, maybe not so

506
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 3: much for critics at the time. But one of the

507
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 3: other things I wanted to mention about Lynch's terrible experience

508
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 3: with the version of this movie that was released. Despite

509
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 3: his extreme dissatisfaction with how Dune turned out, doing this movie,

510
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 3: from what I've read, sort of set Lynch up to

511
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 3: be able to make the kinds of movies and TV

512
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,120
Speaker 3: that he would go on to create later, the kinds

513
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,400
Speaker 3: of things that he's celebrated for now. And I think

514
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 3: he is also personally more proud of things like Twin

515
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 3: Peaks and Mulholland Drive and all that. So I think

516
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 3: it's very interesting, Like I strongly sympathize with Lynch's point

517
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 3: of view about Dune. It is terrible to in one sense,

518
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 3: be like a primary creator of a collaborative piece of

519
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 3: art and have it come out in a way that

520
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 3: you feel is fundamentally not your vision and something you

521
00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 3: are not proud of. But also going through that experience

522
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 3: of artistic disaster did perhaps make these other later projects

523
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 3: possible for him.

524
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Yeah, It's it's really difficult to imagine where David

525
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 1: Lynch's career would have gone had he not taken Doune,

526
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: you know, like outside of of where Dune and science

527
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 1: fiction would have gone, Like what would his career have

528
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 1: consisted of? What would have what would his next project

529
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 1: have been? And or what like if he had not

530
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 1: taken Dune on as the big I don't know, arguably

531
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 1: sell out project before moving on with the rest of

532
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 1: his career. What what what would it have been? You know,

533
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 1: what were some of the other what have you taken

534
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 1: Return of the Jedi instead? What kind of world would

535
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 1: we live in today? Uh, as far as Star Wars

536
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 1: and as far as David Lynch are concerned.

537
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 3: That's I'm not saying Return of the Jedi would have

538
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 3: been better under his direction. And I don't know, but

539
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 3: I would like to see that movie man Ewoks?

540
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: How weird? Would those eoks have.

541
00:27:54,800 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 3: Been talking backwards e woks? Walking backwards e woks? So anyway,

542
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 3: so you asked me to, yeah, kind of fill in

543
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 3: more thoughts about the texture of David lynch movies, And

544
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 3: I wanted to start off by characterizing my relationship with

545
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 3: David Lynch's work by contrast. So there are a lot

546
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 3: of movies, you know, big example, that comes to mind today,

547
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 3: or like the superhero movies that I watch on airplanes

548
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 3: that feel designed to me to be as frictionless and

549
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:31,160
Speaker 3: entertainment experience as possible, so they are pleasant and enjoyable

550
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 3: for the time I'm watching them. I don't hate them,

551
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 3: you know, O. They're fun. There's nothing to really jar

552
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 3: or unsettle the viewer, nothing to cause doubts or reflection

553
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 3: or make you wonder why am I seeing this? It

554
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 3: all just kind of it all flows, it makes sense,

555
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 3: it goes down smooth, and then I forget about it

556
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 3: and possibly never think about it again. My history of

557
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 3: experiences with David Lynch movies are exactly the opposite. Frequently

558
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 3: I have had the experience of watching a movie by

559
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 3: David Lynch finding something full of strange and disturbing imagery

560
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 3: that made me feel uneasy and, to quote the Reverend Mother,

561
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 3: profoundly stirred, initially deciding after the movie's over that I

562
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 3: did not like it, but then thinking about elements of

563
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 3: it over and over in the months or years that followed,

564
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 3: until I felt like I had to go back and

565
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 3: see it again, and then when I did, finally deciding

566
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 3: that I loved it. So David Lynch movies are full

567
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 3: of scenes and images that do not go down smooth.

568
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 3: They do not flow with the logic of standard entertainment storytelling.

569
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 3: To use like a musical analogy, there are a lot

570
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 3: of motifs that use notes from out of the song's key,

571
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 3: and yet they end up producing something that is very

572
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 3: memorable and feels very true and revealing, almost kind of ancient.

573
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 3: A metaphor I've thought of before for is that I

574
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 3: feel like when I'm watching a David Lynch movie, it's

575
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 3: like somebody is showing me a film of a bad

576
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 3: dream I had twenty years ago and completely forgot about,

577
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 3: and now it is only vaguely familiar in a way

578
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 3: that makes me uncomfortable, because, like I realize, somebody put

579
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 3: a movie camera in my subconscious. It's a really powerful

580
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 3: artistic sensibility that can create a feeling like that that

581
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 3: like I'm seeing something that is at the same time

582
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 3: very strange and disturbing, but also very familiar in a

583
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 3: way that's hard to identify.

584
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think that's a good way of putting it.

585
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: There's a particular scene in Mulhall and Drive like this,

586
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: and I'm not gonna spoil it, but anyone who's seen

587
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 1: it probably knows, like which kind of like terrifying moment

588
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 1: I'm talking about.

589
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, I think I know. Well, there's like

590
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 3: one sudden, absolutely terrifying moment in the movie, but there's

591
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 3: a lot in the movie. In that movie that's just

592
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 3: very meaningfully ominous conversations people have that almost kind of

593
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 3: like remind you of something. It's like, what are they

594
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 3: talking about? This connects to something, but it's hard to

595
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 3: put it together. Yeah, So I wanted to run through

596
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 3: some themes that come up a lot in David Lynch movies,

597
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 3: because specifically in the context of Dune. Dune is often

598
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 3: considered an outlier in Lynch's filmography. It's not like the

599
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 3: rest of his work, and of course he didn't write

600
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 3: the original underlying story. But I was trying to think

601
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 3: if any of these favorite themes of his are in

602
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 3: any way hinted at in Dune through his interpretation of

603
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 3: the narrative. I'm not sure if any of them are,

604
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 3: but we'll see. So things that come up in a

605
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 3: lot of Lynch movies. People in places that seem wholesome

606
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 3: and clean on the surface but hide horrible secrets.

607
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: Hmmm, well, maybe not so much with this film.

608
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, it doesn't really seem all that wholesome on the surface, doesn't.

609
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,040
Speaker 1: No, No, most the unwholesome characters are unwholesome on the

610
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 1: surface by definition, like intensely so, as we'll discuss.

611
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 3: Another thing is people who can't remember something important. There's

612
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 3: something important that happened happened to them, or something important

613
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,719
Speaker 3: they know and they can't put it together.

614
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: I guess we see some kind of shades of that

615
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: in this however distantly echoed m hm.

616
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 3: The big one for David Lynch movies is people with

617
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 3: doubles or doppelgangers. In some cases, like a character having

618
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 3: a sort of mysterious twin who is an altered reflection

619
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 3: of themself. Sometimes this will be a character with a

620
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 3: split personality, other times a character literally changing bodily into

621
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 3: another person or not knowing which person they are. Lynch

622
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 3: is really obsessed with doubles.

623
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: Well, you know, not so much of that in this film,

624
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 1: but it's this is a case where it's a shame

625
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:55,719
Speaker 1: he didn't get to make a sequel.

626
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 3: Oh man, Yeah, wait, which which plot element from the

627
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 3: sequels are you calling out? There.

628
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 1: I mean there are a couple. I mean you have

629
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: the Gulas, the essentially clones specifically of Dunk and Idaho,

630
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: and then you also have the face dancers. So you

631
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 1: have a few different possibilities there where he could have

632
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 1: leaned into it, and certainly, given his how he weirds

633
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: up some of the already weird elements in this film,

634
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 1: you could imagine him having some fun with these concepts.

635
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And from what I recall, I think I

636
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 3: read that David Lynch did love the source material, like

637
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 3: you read the novel or possibly multiple novels and was like, yes,

638
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 3: I'm on board, I love this.

639
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've never seen anything where he was he like

640
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 1: even retroactively trashed the novel and said like I didn't

641
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: like it and I didn't want to adapt it. Like

642
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: you know, he says that he loved it. He found

643
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 1: things in it that exhilarated him, and I think that

644
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: shines through in his script, even if it occurs at

645
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 1: times in a way that are perhaps detrimental to the film,

646
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 1: Like you know, it inspired him. It was not something

647
00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 1: where he's like, Okay, I just need to I need

648
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 1: to hit this because it's in the novel it's like, no,

649
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: it gave him ideas.

650
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 3: Okay, other Lynchian themes kind of reversals of reality. This

651
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,760
Speaker 3: would be the kind of setting equivalent of the Doppelganger principle,

652
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 3: where there will be kind of a mirror world or

653
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 3: a world above in a world below.

654
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:20,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe not so much that. I guess you could

655
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: make an argument for Kalad and Aracus being kind of

656
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 1: mirror worlds in a way.

657
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 3: I can see that characters who like suddenly realize they

658
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 3: are responsible for something bad happening and had been oblivious

659
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 3: to their responsibility.

660
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe not so much here, but there could have

661
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 1: been room for it. Would have been room for it

662
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 1: had the series continued right.

663
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 3: A way that David Lynch approaches violence I think is interesting.

664
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,720
Speaker 3: He uses violence that is in its physical form, running

665
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 3: against the grain of cinematic conventions, so people who you

666
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:02,399
Speaker 3: know get shot in movie often look a certain way.

667
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:04,879
Speaker 3: Lynch seems to go out of his way to make

668
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 3: violence look strange, kind of alien to everyday life, almost

669
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 3: bordering on comedic sometimes, but in a way that makes

670
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 3: it even more shocking and unpleasant, like showing people's bodies

671
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 3: reacting to violence in unexpected ways. I just think of

672
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 3: one example of from the movie Blue Velvet, there is

673
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 3: a bizarre and haunting image of a man who has

674
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 3: been shot in the head and apparently killed, but remains

675
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 3: standing up, kind of swaying in a daze between life

676
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 3: and death.

677
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 1: I think we definitely see elements of this and don Yeah.

678
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 3: Another thing is a kind of esthetic affinity for the

679
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 3: nineteen fifties running through his work. There's like a rockabillity,

680
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 3: leave it to beaver g Golly sensibility, which of course

681
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,240
Speaker 3: is always put in startling contrast to like the Warlock logic,

682
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 3: nightmare imagery and the violence.

683
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: Well obviously not this one really, but that, Yeah, I

684
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 1: guess that is the theme of his work.

685
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 3: Oh, I don't know. I wonder if I see a

686
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 3: little bit of Elvis I see a little bit of

687
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,839
Speaker 3: elvisiness in doing here. They're like the pompadour hair we

688
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 3: see some of that, Like Lady Jessica's haircut feels kind

689
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 3: of at Elvissey. I don't know, there's uh, some of

690
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 3: the outfits feel and I think I'm reaching here. I'm trying.

691
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 3: There's a peculiar technical thing that David Lynch does that

692
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 3: I think does come through in Dune. I wanted to

693
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 3: call this out. This is Lynch's use of sound design

694
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:40,320
Speaker 3: to create a mood, and I specifically I mean not music,

695
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 3: though he does use music well in his movies, and

696
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 3: and we can get to the music in Dune in

697
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 3: a minute, which I think has has highs and lows,

698
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 3: but the highs are great. Lynch specifically uses ambient sound

699
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 3: in a way that is that has a powerful effect

700
00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 3: on the feelings of the viewer, specifically sound missing from

701
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 3: scenes where it should be, or strange sounds in scenes

702
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 3: where they should not be. So it is an example

703
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:12,839
Speaker 3: of each. Like imagine a scene at a party which

704
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,760
Speaker 3: is silent and there's no background noise in the chatter

705
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 3: and the music and everything is removed and it's unsettlingly silent.

706
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 3: Or maybe imagine a bedroom with inappropriate sounds of machinery

707
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 3: and steam venting and things like that. There's a scene

708
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,760
Speaker 3: I shared with you Rob from the movie Lost Highway

709
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,240
Speaker 3: where Bill Pullman's at a party. It's a famously creepy scene.

710
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 3: Bill Pullman's at a party and a guy, a mysterious stranger,

711
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 3: comes up to him and starts telling him that he

712
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 3: actually a double of him that he's in two places

713
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 3: at once, and that he is in Bill Pullman's house

714
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 3: at that moment. And the way sound is manipulated in

715
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 3: the scene, like the sound of the party drops out

716
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,800
Speaker 3: as the two of them start talking, and it creates

717
00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 3: a really focused, dreamlike effect that heightens the horror.

718
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. I had never I haven't seen this film in

719
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,280
Speaker 1: full before, and I had not seen this this sequence,

720
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,800
Speaker 1: but this is great. Yeah, where we have this uncle

721
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 1: festerized Robert Blake character with no eyebrows come up to

722
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 1: Bill Pullman and just start talking like the craziest stuff

723
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 1: to him, and and and and daring it. Yeah, the

724
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: sounds dropped out and become this it's become this ambient

725
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 1: drone that is just so creepy and creates this sense

726
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,720
Speaker 1: of unreality, you know, like this is like a cross

727
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 1: dimensional stranger that has that is like freezing time as

728
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 1: they talk to you, that sort of thing.

729
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 3: That's a great way of putting it. And and I

730
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,720
Speaker 3: think does Lynch use any of that kind of sound

731
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 3: design technique in Dune? I think a little bit. It's

732
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 3: not as overt as it is like in Lost Highway,

733
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 3: but there is a little bit of it.

734
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 1: It reminds me a little bit of how like you

735
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 1: have to be sort of even handed perhaps too when

736
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 1: you're dealing with overtly sci fi elements and then the

737
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 1: potentially using sci fi design or illusions. I don't know,

738
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 1: Like I think about like how many times current McCarthy

739
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 1: and his books will compare something mundane or western to

740
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 1: something arcane and mythical and you know, and bloody and

741
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 1: hellish and in a way that you couldn't really get

742
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 1: away with if you were, say, writing about something that

743
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 1: was overtly bloody, hellish or mythic and occult.

744
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it's like the contextual inappropriateness that makes it

745
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 3: striking and profound. Yeah. So, anyway, I guess we can

746
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,320
Speaker 3: think more as we go along about to what extent

747
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 3: Dune feels like a David Lynch movie or does feel,

748
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 3: as some reviewers have said, like an outlier that's just

749
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 3: not like the rest of his work.

750
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 1: All Right, We have to of course mention the source

751
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 1: material here. It is, of course, the novel by Frank Herbert,

752
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 1: who lived nineteen twenty through nineteen eighty six, legendary Americans

753
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 1: fi author whose earliest short stories date back to the

754
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:04,800
Speaker 1: mid forties and his first sci fi stories to the

755
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: early fifties. I believe his first novel nineteen fifty six

756
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 1: is The Dragon and the Sea is a near future

757
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 1: submarine tale. He began research on Dune in nineteen fifty nine,

758
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 1: and following serial publication and analog magazine, it published in

759
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty five after numerous rejections. This is another one

760
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 1: of those films. One another one of those books rather

761
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 1: that is often held up as like, oh, look at

762
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 1: all the rejections, at God, and then you know, it

763
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 1: became the most successful and influential sci fi novel of

764
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 1: all time.

765
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 3: Pretty much seems like almost every really great novel, people

766
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 3: initially have the reaction of, I don't know how to

767
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 3: market this.

768
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's because it's not going to be the

769
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 1: next whatever it's going to be done. And we see

770
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 1: that reflecting some of the films too.

771
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 3: You know.

772
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 1: It's like even with this one, they're like, we need

773
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 1: the next star Wars. Bring up the Dune. Well, you know,

774
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 1: Dune may have inspired partially inspired Star Wars, but it's

775
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 1: not Star Wars. It's not going to hit the same m.

776
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: So Herbert followed Dune up with Numero standalone novels two

777
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 1: other series, but the Dune Saga remains his most well

778
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 1: known work. Dune Messiah followed in sixty nine, Children of

779
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,919
Speaker 1: Doune in seventy six, God Emperor of Doune in eighty one,

780
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,879
Speaker 1: Heretics of Dune in eighty four, and Chapter House Dune

781
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 1: in eighty five. Herbert died in eighty six before he

782
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: could write the seventh and what was supposed to be

783
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 1: the final book in the series. His son, Brian Herbert

784
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: and author Kevin J. Anderson would eventually continue writing stories

785
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 1: set in the Dune universe, including Beare version of an

786
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 1: ending to the original saga. And like we said, there

787
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 1: have been various attempts to adapt these books, especially the

788
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 1: first book, to the screen. There was Jodroowski attempt in

789
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:45,360
Speaker 1: the mid seventies. There was even an earlier early seventies

790
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 1: attempt that may have even had David Lean attached at

791
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: one point to direct, but I don't think that went anywhere.

792
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 1: And then when Dino de Larentez got the rights, he

793
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 1: was working with Ridley Scott initially and like that was

794
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 1: like in pre production for a little bit before Scott

795
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 1: had to sign off. I think for like personal reasons.

796
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 1: I think there'd been a death in his family, but

797
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 1: also they were perhaps butting heads a little bit more

798
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 1: like getting to where they thought they needed to creatively

799
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 1: on the project.

800
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 3: Mm you know, I had some notes here about what

801
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 3: we already talked about earlier about just the difficulty, the

802
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 3: inherent difficulty of adapting Dune to the screen, because it's

803
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 3: just not written in a way that naturally translates to

804
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 3: the screen. I mean, some scenes, do you know, scenes

805
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 3: with the sandworms and all that is very cinematic, But

806
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:34,799
Speaker 3: as we talked about earlier, so much of the book

807
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 3: is either contextual about the broader setting in the world

808
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 3: in a way that's like hard to fit into a

809
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 3: movie without a lot of heavy exposition, or it's internal

810
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 3: people's internal monologues and struggles in a way that's difficult

811
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 3: to do without, you know, having these internal voice narrations

812
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 3: which don't work great in this movie. And in a

813
00:42:56,280 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 3: way I think that really should be like that difficulty

814
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 3: should be to the credit of what these filmmakers have

815
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 3: done with it. That I think Lynch did a better

816
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 3: job than should have been expected. And then the new

817
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 3: movies are the one I've seen at least, and I

818
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 3: from what I've heard that the new one as well.

819
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 3: Dannis ville Neuve's adaptation really exceeded all my expectations in

820
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 3: adapting this, that they found clever ways to illustrate the

821
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 3: world and fill in a lot of this internal and

822
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 3: contextual detail without it just feeling like you're getting tons

823
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:32,760
Speaker 3: of narrative exposition all the time.

824
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, and finding smart ways to sort of narrow in

825
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 1: and focus on particular things. Like you know, the plotting

826
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 1: behind the fall of House Atreds has a number of

827
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: players in it, and Denny Vee's adaptations tend to lean

828
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 1: more on the Benajes Ritz while Lynch's adaptation leans more

829
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 1: on the Spacing Guild. You know, they're both players in

830
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 1: what happens. But ultimately you have to make some choices

831
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 1: on the screen and what are you going to fote this?

832
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 3: Actually, well, I'll save this for the uh for when

833
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 3: we get into the plot. But I am curious what

834
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:10,840
Speaker 3: you think of the way Lynch's movie really explains everything

835
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 3: right at the top.

836
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 1: Oh God, there's so much world create. Like he goes

837
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: ahead and mentions IX. Yeah, he's mentioning planets and factions

838
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 1: that are not going to really become important until later

839
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 1: on in the series, and you know, and sequels that

840
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:27,800
Speaker 1: did not come to fruition.

841
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 3: Oh that's true. Also, I mean explains everything about the

842
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 3: conspiracy against how Is It just like leaves nothing to

843
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 3: be to be revealed or discovered, essentially, except the only

844
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 3: thing I think is like who the trader in how

845
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,879
Speaker 3: Strades is? Everything else is like told right up top,

846
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 3: here's the conspiracy, here's what they're gonna do.

847
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, not just to the viewer, but like the characters know,

848
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 1: like Paul knows, He's like I figured it out.

849
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been a while since I've read the book,

850
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 3: but I don't remember all of that being revealed up front.

851
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 3: I remember that being a thing that you discover as

852
00:44:58,520 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 3: you go through the story.

853
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's correct. But then again, it's been

854
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 1: a couple of years since I reread done, and you know,

855
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 1: it's not all the details stick with me. But again,

856
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:10,399
Speaker 1: that's the joy of rereading books. You get to forget

857
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,240
Speaker 1: a little bit, you come back in slightly new experience

858
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:16,319
Speaker 1: each time. That is nice. Now we're going to hit

859
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: a few more behind the scenes individuals here. As we

860
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 1: often mention, especially on Big Lavish productions like this, we

861
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,720
Speaker 1: can't possibly mention everybody that had a role in making

862
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 1: this film what it was, even major players. As with

863
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 1: the adaptation of Doing you have to look at the

864
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 1: conspirators and just focus on a few, and so I

865
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 1: do want to call out that cinematographer Freddie Francis worked

866
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:42,320
Speaker 1: on this. He lived nineteen seventeen through two thousand and seven,

867
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:45,720
Speaker 1: British director and cinematographer, with extensive credits in the horror

868
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 1: and sci fi genre, including sixty three's The Day of

869
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 1: the Triffids, sixty four's The Evil of Frankenstein, the nineteen

870
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: seventy two Tales from the Crypt movie in. One of

871
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 1: his later works was nineteen eighty seven's Dark Tower, replacing

872
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:02,720
Speaker 1: Shockwave director Ken Widerhorn during production.

873
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:06,839
Speaker 3: Dark Tower That's not Stephen King is no connection.

874
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 1: To Stephen King, but it does have a connection to Shockwaves,

875
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: which we covered on the show in the past. As

876
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 1: a cinematographer, Francis had worked with Lynch on The Elephant

877
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,239
Speaker 1: Man and worked with him again later in nineteen ninety

878
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 1: nine on The Straight Story. Other credits include Return to Oz,

879
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:26,320
Speaker 1: which we've talked about on the show, and two films

880
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 1: for which he won an Academy Award nineteen sixty one

881
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,360
Speaker 1: Sons and Lovers and nineteen nineties Glory.

882
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,280
Speaker 3: Let me tell you something. I didn't put this together

883
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 3: until just now, but I think there is a lot

884
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 3: of shared visual genetic material between Returned to Oz and

885
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 3: David Lynch's Doune. Do you see that with the sets?

886
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:51,279
Speaker 3: And there's something about the sets and the costumes and

887
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:54,879
Speaker 3: the way the film looks that there's a great similarity there.

888
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I know what you mean, kind of like

889
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 1: this sort of baroque weirdness.

890
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 3: I don't know, a lot of kind of gold and

891
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:07,319
Speaker 3: jade things. Yeah, very baroque. Like you say, there is

892
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,839
Speaker 3: a mix of things that look scary and things that

893
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:12,760
Speaker 3: look funny, all jumbled together.

894
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's a good connection. Now, again, a

895
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:18,360
Speaker 1: lot of people went into the visuals on this film

896
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:20,279
Speaker 1: and the effects and so forth. But I do have

897
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 1: to call out Carlo Rumbaldi sometimes credited just as Rumbaldi.

898
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 1: He has creature creator credits on this, and I bet

899
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 1: everyone knows what creature we're talking about. We're talking about

900
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:32,239
Speaker 1: the Guild Navigator.

901
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 3: Oh. I thought you were going to say the sandworm,

902
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 3: but here we go.

903
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 1: Well, you know that's right, there is the Sandworm. I

904
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 1: bet he worked on both of them. I believe. I've

905
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:42,319
Speaker 1: read he worked on The Guild Navigator, but I bet

906
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:45,879
Speaker 1: he was in on the Sandworm as well. Okay, so yeah,

907
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 1: he lived nineteen twenty five through twenty twelve. Legendary effects

908
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 1: master who worked on films such as Planet of the Vampires,

909
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 1: et Alien, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, and Barborella.

910
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 1: Oh Man. And finally we have to talk about off.

911
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 1: The music for David Lynch's Down. The score is by Toto. Yep,

912
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:10,319
Speaker 1: the American rock jazz fusion band best known for such

913
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 1: late seventies and early eighties hits as Africa, Hold the

914
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:20,720
Speaker 1: Line and Rosanna Joe. Is rock jazz fusion the correct

915
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 1: descriptor for Toto genre.

916
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:27,720
Speaker 3: I've really struggled with this. I don't know that much

917
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:30,879
Speaker 3: about Toto other than like their singles and the role

918
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 3: in the movie here. I don't know how much jazz

919
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:38,919
Speaker 3: I hear, But like I don't really know their whole discography.

920
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 3: I would say that their hit songs sound to me

921
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:44,240
Speaker 3: just more like a rock band.

922
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've heard people make a case for prog rock

923
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:52,760
Speaker 1: with Toto, and but then also I have to say,

924
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 1: like their biggest hit, Africa, which I did a deep,

925
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:58,879
Speaker 1: semi deep dive. I waited in a little bit into

926
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 1: the Toto filmography yesterday, and most of it is not

927
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 1: for me. However, Africa is an all time great like that.

928
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,319
Speaker 1: Africa is a great track, and I think you could

929
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 1: make a case for looping Africa in with the kind

930
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 1: of like yacht rock kind of sound.

931
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 3: Oh yes, yeah, it's I mean, it's very very smooth,

932
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 3: but it's a but it's a catchy song and it

933
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:27,239
Speaker 3: has you know, people, I think people would call it

934
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 3: out for being cheesy, but it does have some transcendent melodies.

935
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great track. It is a cheesy track,

936
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 1: but it's a great track. I have it saved to

937
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:39,880
Speaker 1: my phone in one of my playlists. So Toto formed

938
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 1: out of a collect in ob sessions musicians, and at

939
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,479
Speaker 1: the time of the recording of this score, the band

940
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 1: consisted of Steve Lucather, David Posh, Steve Porco, Mike Porcio,

941
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 1: and Jeff Porcio. Bobby Kimball, the vocalist, had I believe

942
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 1: just left the band and I'm not sure on the

943
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 1: full story there, but it at this point Toto had

944
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:05,719
Speaker 1: achieved some of their biggest hits, and they had never

945
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 1: scored a motion picture before, and they have not scored

946
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 1: a motion picture since.

947
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 3: You mentioned they were session musicians. I know Steve, however

948
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 3: you say his last name Lucather or Lukeather, whatever that is.

949
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 3: I know he worked on like a bunch of other

950
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:23,840
Speaker 3: big songs from artists he would recognize, like he played

951
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:27,319
Speaker 3: the guitar on beat It and stuff like that.

952
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, so they were very technically proficient and also obviously

953
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:34,919
Speaker 1: commercially proficient. They were a big deal at the time.

954
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:38,879
Speaker 1: They're not just coming out of nowhere to score Dune.

955
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 1: And yet this is a choice that has long confused me.

956
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 1: You know, you can understand the desire Ondido Dealer inis

957
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 1: his part, Okay, we're going to take this mid sixties

958
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 1: sci fi tale, but we want, we want to hit,

959
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:54,240
Speaker 1: we want we want to connect with modern film viewers.

960
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 1: We wanted to be a mainstream crossover. And so you

961
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:01,799
Speaker 1: can understand why he might want something similar to what

962
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:04,840
Speaker 1: he did with Flash Gordon in nineteen eighty bringing in Queen.

963
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:08,319
Speaker 1: Even though that, of course is the tone of that

964
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:11,760
Speaker 1: fel Is totally different from what they're going after in Dinn.

965
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 3: I mean, Queen was perfect for Flash Gordon. It is

966
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 3: a perfect fit. As we were saying that, like that

967
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 3: harmonized guitar sound that Brian May makes and the kind

968
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:27,719
Speaker 3: of campy theatricality that Queen was already doing on their

969
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 3: studio albums just is Flash Gordon. It's that perfect embodiment

970
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:34,920
Speaker 3: of the feeling of the film. And so yeah, it

971
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 3: couldn't be a better fit Toto in this movie. I

972
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:40,360
Speaker 3: don't want to knock it again because there are elements

973
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:42,800
Speaker 3: of the soundtrack that I think do really work well,

974
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,279
Speaker 3: but I don't know if it fits quite the same way.

975
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:50,759
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Like Dino even apparently wanted Conan the Barbarian

976
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 1: to have a rock and roll score, but Don Milios

977
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 1: was like, like, no, we're not doing that. This is

978
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: what we're doing. And you know, I think that was

979
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:00,399
Speaker 1: the correct choice owned in.

980
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 3: The Barbarian score by the Scorpions.

981
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:07,280
Speaker 1: So I always kind of like assumed that, like, Okay,

982
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 1: Dino must have forced his hand here. It's like bring

983
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 1: in Toto. Toto's popular, let's have Toto score it. But

984
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 1: I was reading in an article published on The Thin

985
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 1: Air by Stephen Rainey titled what Happens when You Add

986
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 1: Toto to David Lynch, that Dino actually wanted Georgio Moroder

987
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:29,959
Speaker 1: for the gig Rover is tremendous. He did the score

988
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:33,360
Speaker 1: for The Never Ending Story, for example. According to Rainey,

989
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 1: it was Lynch that pushed for Toto. I'm not sure

990
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 1: exactly why, and you know, Lynch doesn't talk about Doom

991
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 1: much at all in any interviews. I've seen some members

992
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:46,279
Speaker 1: of Toto discussed in some interviews, but it tends to

993
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:48,320
Speaker 1: just sound like, well, things just sort of came together,

994
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 1: you know, we met and he thought we were right

995
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 1: for it, and that's how it came to be.

996
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 3: Okay, I would not have expected that.

997
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:58,440
Speaker 1: We should have also point out that there is one

998
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:03,359
Speaker 1: track on the score, Prophecy Theme, in which Brian Eno

999
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:07,400
Speaker 1: and Daniel Lenois also contribute, and that of course is

1000
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:08,399
Speaker 1: a great track as well.

1001
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:11,799
Speaker 3: Okay, folks, I just had to like pause recording here

1002
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:14,320
Speaker 3: to go figure out which track that was and listen

1003
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 3: to it, and then it was like playing all these

1004
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 3: YouTube bads at me. But anyway, great theme, Yes, I agree,

1005
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:23,640
Speaker 3: this is the one with the swelling synthesizer chords, and

1006
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:26,920
Speaker 3: it's sort of the music from the hearts of space

1007
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 3: of this film.

1008
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, obviously I love that track well love you know.

1009
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:35,480
Speaker 1: It's anything you know touches. It's hard to find fault with,

1010
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 1: but I do want to stress like the whole score

1011
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:42,240
Speaker 1: is pretty solid on the whole and at times great.

1012
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 1: It is a legitimate film score that sometimes sounds very

1013
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 1: Toto Slash Africa, but otherwise it commits to tones and

1014
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:54,680
Speaker 1: tempos that are cinematically informed and cinematically appropriate. For instance,

1015
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:59,200
Speaker 1: Dune desert theme. That track feels very Toto and Africa

1016
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 1: is great in that sense. While the main title you

1017
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 1: know this is the Boom Boom Boom Boom, it is

1018
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 1: more brooding and cinematic. It's a great track, totally fits

1019
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 1: the film. My personal favorite, aside from that is Robot Fight.

1020
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:18,760
Speaker 1: This is when when Paul is training early in the film.

1021
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:24,240
Speaker 1: It's chonky, it's scynthy, it's pulsing. The box is also nice,

1022
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 1: and the Floating Fat Man that's the title of the

1023
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:31,320
Speaker 1: track in parentheses. The Baron is a high energy synth

1024
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:34,160
Speaker 1: organ number that I think would feel perfectly at home

1025
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:36,640
Speaker 1: in virtually any Italian horror movie.

1026
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot of great stuff in this score,

1027
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 3: a lot that I really like. I also really like

1028
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 3: the robot fight number that's just got some It's got

1029
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:46,400
Speaker 3: some kind of percussion and it sounds sort of like

1030
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 3: woodblocks or something. Yeah, and that's a great one, the

1031
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 3: scene where Paul fights the stabbing robot. Yeah. But there

1032
00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 3: are some parts of the score that I think don't

1033
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 3: work quite as well. And the part that I think

1034
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 3: don't really work as well are the ones, the parts

1035
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 3: that sound more rock. It's it's not a great fit.

1036
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's at least one point late in the film

1037
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 1: where Fremen are writing sandworms and you get like a

1038
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:15,640
Speaker 1: guitar lick and like it giggled a little bit. It

1039
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:17,880
Speaker 1: was amazing, though, I'm glad. I wouldn't want it any

1040
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:23,719
Speaker 1: other way. All in all, I'd say an effective and

1041
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:26,880
Speaker 1: interesting score, you know, comparing it to the other films,

1042
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 1: you know, I have to say I'm a huge fan

1043
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 1: of Hans Zimmer's Dune scores. I think this is probably

1044
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:35,319
Speaker 1: his best work now that I've listened to all of

1045
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 1: Hans Zimmer's scores, because he scored some really uninteresting and

1046
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:42,759
Speaker 1: awful movies at times. But you know, I mean, but

1047
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:45,799
Speaker 1: we have to acknowledge his approach is altogether different. It's

1048
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:48,360
Speaker 1: from a different era, so you can't really compare. You

1049
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 1: can't compare a total score to a Zimmer score. They're

1050
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 1: both great in their own way.

1051
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 3: Sorry, I'm just looking at what Hans Zimmer has scored. Now,

1052
00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 3: Oh he did Twister.

1053
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's it's just a lot of stuff in there.

1054
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:03,319
Speaker 1: It's like, I don't even want to check, Like, I

1055
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 1: doubt Twister has a great score. I'm sure it's effective.

1056
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 1: I'm sure it's fine, but I'm just not gonna go

1057
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:10,520
Speaker 1: listen to it. I'm sorry.

1058
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:13,360
Speaker 3: It's not even that Twister. It's a different Twister that

1059
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:15,839
Speaker 3: is also a movie about tornadoes.

1060
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 1: Oh okay, they didn't adapt the board game or the

1061
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 1: floor game Twister the motion picture.

1062
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 3: Okay, what are we doing now? Are we gonna go

1063
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:39,560
Speaker 3: start talking about the plot and introduce some actors as

1064
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 3: we go along?

1065
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 1: Yes, let us attempt to do this.

1066
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 3: Bear with us.

1067
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:46,239
Speaker 1: We have not really done it this way before, but

1068
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:49,359
Speaker 1: I think this is our best path forward, So say

1069
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 1: it the guild navigators.

1070
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:54,279
Speaker 3: Okay, well, the movie starts with what do you want

1071
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:56,240
Speaker 3: to guess it's a sci fi movie from the eighties.

1072
00:56:56,280 --> 00:56:59,279
Speaker 3: What do we open with? It's a star field kind

1073
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:02,360
Speaker 3: of a overused convention, but we start looking at the

1074
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:06,320
Speaker 3: stars and then we come in on the eyes. Extreme

1075
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:11,560
Speaker 3: close up of the eyes of Virginia Madsen playing Princess Irulan.

1076
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:18,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, so she is part of House Corrino. For modern

1077
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:21,920
Speaker 1: fans of the more recent adaptations, she was not introduced

1078
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:25,240
Speaker 1: as a character until Dune Part two. Virginia Madson born

1079
00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty one. Oscar nominated actress for two thousand

1080
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 1: and five Sideways, and this is I believe her second

1081
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:34,440
Speaker 1: or third credit. Dune is no Sideways. She was in

1082
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 1: the nineteen eighty three Comedy Class as well as nineteen

1083
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:41,640
Speaker 1: eighty four as Electric Dreams. Her subsequent credits include ninety

1084
00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 1: one's Highlander two The Quickening, There You Go, ninety two

1085
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 1: is Candy Man, nineteen ninety five's The Prophecy, The Christopher

1086
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:51,040
Speaker 1: Walken Angel one that we might get to at some

1087
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:53,600
Speaker 1: point in various other TV projects.

1088
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:55,760
Speaker 3: Robert, are we going to do Highlander two The Quickening

1089
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:56,160
Speaker 3: this year?

1090
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 1: We should? You know? We have that older stuff to

1091
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:00,920
Speaker 1: blow your mind episode about Highland to the quickening, but

1092
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 1: it wasn't the weird house approach, right, so you know,

1093
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:06,480
Speaker 1: it doesn't really count. We could come back and do it.

1094
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 3: I think the question for that would be, is there

1095
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:12,040
Speaker 3: a way now to get our hands on a copy

1096
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:16,040
Speaker 3: of the superior bad cut of the film as opposed

1097
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 3: to the inferior improved cut of the film?

1098
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:21,640
Speaker 1: That's true. You know, last time we watched it, we

1099
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:24,720
Speaker 1: had to watch a rip of the VHS or something

1100
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:27,960
Speaker 1: like that. So that's what we need to find out.

1101
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:30,320
Speaker 1: We need to find out if we have a good

1102
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 1: source material here.

1103
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:34,840
Speaker 3: They're trying to only make accessible the versions that take

1104
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,080
Speaker 3: out all the good stuff and don't have you know,

1105
00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:40,400
Speaker 3: Sean Connery waving the sword with the flashlight on him

1106
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 3: and stuff.

1107
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:44,880
Speaker 1: Anyway, Virginia Madson, who by the way, is the sister

1108
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 1: of Michael Madson, perfectly fine performance here, though she doesn't

1109
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:52,040
Speaker 1: get to do all that much. I should know that

1110
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:55,280
Speaker 1: Julie Cox and Florence Pugh have also played the role,

1111
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:59,600
Speaker 1: and certainly in the more recent adaptation, this character gets

1112
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:02,960
Speaker 1: to do a little bit more and will be even

1113
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:05,440
Speaker 1: more important in the next Dune film.

1114
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, so in this movie, because it's just an adaptation

1115
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:13,920
Speaker 3: of the first novel. Princess Irulan's role is not huge

1116
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:17,160
Speaker 3: within the plot, but it is huge within the film,

1117
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:20,280
Speaker 3: just because she does so much voiceover narration, Like she

1118
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:23,480
Speaker 3: explains everything about the world to us.

1119
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:26,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, she lays it on us, and she's looking right

1120
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:29,320
Speaker 1: at us, and she's like weirdly conversational. She's like, oh,

1121
00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:31,400
Speaker 1: by the way, I totally forgot to mention this other thing,

1122
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:34,320
Speaker 1: Like she gets into something to an important plot point.

1123
00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:36,680
Speaker 3: Well, wait, so I feel like I should just actually

1124
00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 3: read her opening narration so you can get a sense

1125
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:42,720
Speaker 3: of it, because I feel like you can feel everything

1126
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 3: just a raining down on you. So she says, a

1127
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 3: beginning is a very delicate time. Know then that it

1128
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:53,360
Speaker 3: is the year ten one hundred and ninety one. The

1129
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:57,200
Speaker 3: known universe is ruled by the Padishat Emperor Shadam the fourth,

1130
00:59:57,560 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 3: my father in this time. The most precious substance in

1131
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:05,440
Speaker 3: the universe is the spice millange. The spice extends life,

1132
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:10,520
Speaker 3: The spice expands consciousness. The spice is vital to space travel.

1133
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 3: The Spacing Guild and its navigators, who the spice has

1134
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 3: mutated over four thousand years, use the orange spice gas,

1135
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:22,120
Speaker 3: which gives them the ability to fold space, that is,

1136
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:26,160
Speaker 3: travel to any part of the universe without moving. Oh yes,

1137
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:29,560
Speaker 3: I forgotten to tell you. She does say that the

1138
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:33,560
Speaker 3: Spice exists on only one planet in the entire universe,

1139
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:38,160
Speaker 3: a desolate, dry planet with vast deserts. Hidden away within

1140
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:40,760
Speaker 3: the rocks of these deserts are a people known as

1141
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 3: the Fremen, who have long held a prophecy that a

1142
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 3: man would come, a messiah who would lead them to

1143
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:51,400
Speaker 3: true freedom. The planet is a Racus, also known as Doune.

1144
01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:54,680
Speaker 3: Now this should bring us back to what we were

1145
01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:58,240
Speaker 3: talking about earlier, that audiences at the time quite famously

1146
01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 3: complained that this movie was incomprehensible, that they could not

1147
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:06,040
Speaker 3: follow the plot. I'm at a point where I'm so

1148
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:08,400
Speaker 3: familiar with the world and the story that I don't

1149
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:11,040
Speaker 3: really trust myself to assess what this movie would be

1150
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:14,120
Speaker 3: like to someone who came in cold. But just like

1151
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:17,520
Speaker 3: trying to be objective and look at this opening narration

1152
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:22,600
Speaker 3: in Isolation. Despite it being fairly straightforward, like everything is

1153
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:26,160
Speaker 3: phrased in a very clear to understand way, I think

1154
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:30,320
Speaker 3: it could still even newcomer feeling kind of overwhelmed because

1155
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:33,800
Speaker 3: it's just piling so much on you before any of

1156
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:37,400
Speaker 3: it means anything. I think a better way to develop

1157
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:39,080
Speaker 3: this sort of thing is to give you a little

1158
01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:42,320
Speaker 3: bit of exposition and then show you some story to

1159
01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:45,720
Speaker 3: allow that exposition to kind of like materialize and be

1160
01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:48,760
Speaker 3: connected to characters that you care about. And then once

1161
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:51,320
Speaker 3: you have characters that you care about, you can start

1162
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:53,880
Speaker 3: learning more about the premise and the setting and all that,

1163
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:57,600
Speaker 3: and at that point it'll feel like it's meaningful. With

1164
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:01,040
Speaker 3: just all this opening narration, we haven't even met anybody else.

1165
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:02,960
Speaker 3: It just kind of washes over you, and I think

1166
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:04,760
Speaker 3: you would probably forget a lot of it.

1167
01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:10,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, it's it's also fascinating everything you know, springing

1168
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:13,720
Speaker 1: off of everything you just said, like the intro itself

1169
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:17,240
Speaker 1: begins with a beginning, is a very delicate time, and

1170
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:18,920
Speaker 1: you know, you can't help but think about that in

1171
01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:21,560
Speaker 1: terms of the storytelling, Like this is a delicate point

1172
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:24,440
Speaker 1: in the movie. We are easing you into a complex,

1173
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:28,360
Speaker 1: rich universe, and we have to give you some information,

1174
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:31,040
Speaker 1: but we don't want to give you too much information,

1175
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:36,040
Speaker 1: and therefore, yeah, it is very delicate. It's a very

1176
01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:40,080
Speaker 1: delicate point. I mean, it makes sense that Princess Iroline

1177
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:42,520
Speaker 1: would be the one telling us this because she's it's

1178
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:47,160
Speaker 1: her historical writings that often preface various doune chapters in

1179
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:52,600
Speaker 1: the novel, And you know, it's probably the better choice

1180
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:58,480
Speaker 1: as opposed to the extended prologue that I imagine was cut,

1181
01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:03,960
Speaker 1: and it then ends up reappearing on those disavowed extended

1182
01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:06,280
Speaker 1: TV versions where you have a bunch of like production

1183
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:09,680
Speaker 1: stills of various factions and characters and then a lot

1184
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:13,000
Speaker 1: of additional narration about the different factions. But that prologue

1185
01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:14,760
Speaker 1: is still pretty fun. You can find it on YouTube

1186
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:18,760
Speaker 1: and stuff, and also I'm sure in DBD extras it's amazing.

1187
01:03:19,520 --> 01:03:21,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I haven't seen that. I would like to. I'd

1188
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:23,640
Speaker 3: like to see what they could have done with it.

1189
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:28,160
Speaker 3: Another thing you pointed out is that she gets conversational

1190
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:32,000
Speaker 3: in this, but I think there is a strange mix

1191
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:37,800
Speaker 3: of tones. So like one sentence in this opening narration

1192
01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:41,040
Speaker 3: is know then that it is the year ten thousand

1193
01:03:41,040 --> 01:03:44,320
Speaker 3: and one ninety one. That's almost like a biblical kind

1194
01:03:44,360 --> 01:03:47,120
Speaker 3: of phrasing, know then that it is. But then she

1195
01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:50,200
Speaker 3: also says, oh, yes, I forgot to tell you. It's

1196
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:52,400
Speaker 3: like the voice doesn't feel very consistent.

1197
01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:56,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's ultimately a weird start to a weird film.

1198
01:03:56,480 --> 01:03:59,120
Speaker 3: So the title and credits play out over images of

1199
01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:02,320
Speaker 3: wind sweeping sand from the dunes of the Lifeless Desert.

1200
01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:07,400
Speaker 3: We get that heavy, brooding dune theme, bomb bomb, b bomb.

1201
01:04:07,480 --> 01:04:11,400
Speaker 3: You know, it's very it's very dark, and you know

1202
01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:14,160
Speaker 3: it feels like bad things are coming. Then we get

1203
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:18,200
Speaker 3: more narration that's straight into more of an unknown voice

1204
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:19,920
Speaker 3: talking to you. I think this is a member of

1205
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:20,880
Speaker 3: the Spacing Guild.

1206
01:04:21,120 --> 01:04:23,880
Speaker 1: We see the Spacing Guild logo, I think in this sequence,

1207
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:27,400
Speaker 1: which which is great. Yeah, it's like the three planetary

1208
01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:31,120
Speaker 1: spheres connected by a line, like a horizontal line. It's great.

1209
01:04:31,120 --> 01:04:33,680
Speaker 1: I don't think I'd ever really paid it much attention before,

1210
01:04:33,760 --> 01:04:34,840
Speaker 1: but now I love it.

1211
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:40,840
Speaker 3: So this narrator says a secret report within the Guild,

1212
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:44,560
Speaker 3: four planets have come to our attention regarding a plot

1213
01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:49,520
Speaker 3: which could jeopardize Spice production. Planet Aracus, source of the Spice.

1214
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:55,400
Speaker 3: Planet Calidan, home of Housitreades, Planet gide Prime, home of

1215
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:59,320
Speaker 3: House Harconan, Planet Caton, home of the Emperor of the

1216
01:04:59,360 --> 01:05:04,040
Speaker 3: Known Universe. Send a third stage gild navigator to Katon

1217
01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:08,440
Speaker 3: to demand details from the Emperor the spice must flow,

1218
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:13,560
Speaker 3: so hitting you again with like a lot of factions

1219
01:05:13,640 --> 01:05:16,000
Speaker 3: and stuff before we've met a single person.

1220
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:17,280
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1221
01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:21,680
Speaker 3: Anyway, we see a giant ship landing on the surface

1222
01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:25,560
Speaker 3: of Katon in front of a kind of industrial palace

1223
01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:28,200
Speaker 3: in the night. Katon appears to be a very urbanized

1224
01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:32,400
Speaker 3: planet with brightly lit city skylines in the background. This

1225
01:05:32,520 --> 01:05:37,120
Speaker 3: I guess is sort of the Imperial capital planet, and

1226
01:05:37,440 --> 01:05:41,640
Speaker 3: strange figures are seen disembarking from the ship. We see

1227
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:47,040
Speaker 3: pale skin, bald heads, some people in full environment suits,

1228
01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:50,160
Speaker 3: all in shiny black clothing that seems somewhere between a

1229
01:05:50,280 --> 01:05:53,080
Speaker 3: monk's robe and like a hazmat barrier.

1230
01:05:53,920 --> 01:05:59,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, everything is very industrial slash regal in a

1231
01:06:00,120 --> 01:06:03,200
Speaker 1: very fitting way, you know. And and the members of

1232
01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:06,040
Speaker 1: the Guild that even we've seen so far have a

1233
01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:09,000
Speaker 1: very sickly pallor you know, and they're kind of like

1234
01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:12,520
Speaker 1: oozing in places and so forth. This idea that you know,

1235
01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:18,080
Speaker 1: they're you know, rightfully spice junkies to some extent, and

1236
01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:22,920
Speaker 1: or the rigors of spice use and or interplanetary interstellar

1237
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:26,360
Speaker 1: travel have taken a toll on their bodies.

1238
01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:29,959
Speaker 3: One thing I really like about the design of this movie,

1239
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:32,200
Speaker 3: and I think to some extent this is carried over

1240
01:06:32,360 --> 01:06:38,160
Speaker 3: even into Dnevilneuve's adaptation is the like the costume designs

1241
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:43,640
Speaker 3: and stuff that appear to mix influences of industrial technology

1242
01:06:43,720 --> 01:06:47,400
Speaker 3: and influences of like high church and religion. A lot

1243
01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:50,600
Speaker 3: of characters and the ways they're they're dressed and their

1244
01:06:50,720 --> 01:06:54,880
Speaker 3: environments look like a cross between, you know, like monks

1245
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:59,200
Speaker 3: and priests and cathedrals of the Middle Ages, and also

1246
01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:03,440
Speaker 3: people work in a factory that produces hazardous chemicals.

1247
01:07:04,280 --> 01:07:07,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is an esthetic that fans of Warhammer forty

1248
01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:09,640
Speaker 1: thousand are very familiar with. And I think you can

1249
01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:13,840
Speaker 1: rightfully wonder to what extent that aesthetic would be present

1250
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:17,440
Speaker 1: in Warhammer forty thousand without this adaptation with Dune, And

1251
01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:20,520
Speaker 1: I think you can rightfully wonder if Warhammer forty thousand

1252
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:23,480
Speaker 1: would exist at all in any recognizable form if it

1253
01:07:23,520 --> 01:07:26,080
Speaker 1: had not been for the influence of Dune itself.

1254
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:31,240
Speaker 3: So we see inside the Emperor's Palace next, where everything

1255
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:35,400
Speaker 3: is green and gold, with these pale, milky jade floors

1256
01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:39,080
Speaker 3: and gold walls with columns bearing a kind of this

1257
01:07:39,200 --> 01:07:42,840
Speaker 3: texture that looks like perforated wasp nest. You know, it

1258
01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:46,520
Speaker 3: has these tubes and columns, And so we see courtiers

1259
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:50,360
Speaker 3: milling about everywhere, also dressed in black. So the women

1260
01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:53,160
Speaker 3: in the palace are dressed like mourners and black dresses

1261
01:07:53,200 --> 01:07:57,760
Speaker 3: and black veils, old men in black military uniforms, Imperial

1262
01:07:57,880 --> 01:08:02,520
Speaker 3: dog walkers leading packs of bold around. Most of the

1263
01:08:02,520 --> 01:08:07,160
Speaker 3: courtiers leave the throne room as the Guild Navigator approaches,

1264
01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:11,360
Speaker 3: and we see the Emperor conferring anxiously with an adviser,

1265
01:08:11,800 --> 01:08:15,680
Speaker 3: a woman named Reverend Mother Gaias Helen Moheum, and he

1266
01:08:15,760 --> 01:08:18,960
Speaker 3: tells her that he wishes her to read the Guild

1267
01:08:19,080 --> 01:08:23,400
Speaker 3: Navigator's mind and present a report after she leaves. Then

1268
01:08:23,439 --> 01:08:26,800
Speaker 3: she professes loyalty to the Emperor and says that she

1269
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:29,639
Speaker 3: is his truth sayer. Now this will be the first

1270
01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:34,839
Speaker 3: of many characters introduced to have some level of psychic power.

1271
01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:39,360
Speaker 3: Some characters in Dune have psychic clairvoyance, like a kind

1272
01:08:39,400 --> 01:08:42,960
Speaker 3: of foreknowledge and ability to engage in remote viewing and

1273
01:08:43,000 --> 01:08:45,959
Speaker 3: see what's happening elsewhere or to see into the future.

1274
01:08:46,479 --> 01:08:50,400
Speaker 3: Other characters have the ability to read people's minds, and

1275
01:08:50,520 --> 01:08:52,360
Speaker 3: it's kind of like this to some extent in the

1276
01:08:52,400 --> 01:08:55,360
Speaker 3: book as well. These various types of psychic powers are present,

1277
01:08:56,720 --> 01:09:00,800
Speaker 3: though I do kind of sympathize with some critics at

1278
01:09:00,800 --> 01:09:03,400
Speaker 3: the time when this came out said, like, a lot

1279
01:09:03,439 --> 01:09:05,960
Speaker 3: of characters in this movie are psychic. I wish we

1280
01:09:05,960 --> 01:09:08,000
Speaker 3: were psychic so we could understand the plot. You know,

1281
01:09:08,040 --> 01:09:10,760
Speaker 3: that's kind of an maybe an unfair job, but I

1282
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:13,840
Speaker 3: do see a point they're making that, like who has

1283
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:17,000
Speaker 3: what psychic powers and why is not exactly clear, and

1284
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:21,080
Speaker 3: so you don't know what kinds of knowledge different characters

1285
01:09:21,120 --> 01:09:23,040
Speaker 3: have access to, if that makes sense.

1286
01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:28,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, like this is this adaptation is very concerned

1287
01:09:28,200 --> 01:09:30,519
Speaker 1: with you knowing what breeds of dogs are important to

1288
01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:34,960
Speaker 1: which houses. Maybe it's a little shakier on who has

1289
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:36,479
Speaker 1: what form of psychic power.

1290
01:09:37,320 --> 01:09:40,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, but anyway, so she's there the job.

1291
01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:43,000
Speaker 1: We should talk about these two actors though.

1292
01:09:42,920 --> 01:09:45,040
Speaker 3: Oh oh wait, I'm sorry. Yes, the Emperor and the

1293
01:09:45,040 --> 01:09:49,120
Speaker 3: Reverend Mother both both I think great performances in both cases.

1294
01:09:49,600 --> 01:09:52,719
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so as the Padishah Emperor Shadam the Fourth.

1295
01:09:52,760 --> 01:09:55,799
Speaker 1: We have Jose Ferrara, who lived nineteen twelve through nineteen

1296
01:09:55,880 --> 01:09:58,960
Speaker 1: ninety two, Puerto Rican actor and film director, best known

1297
01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:01,560
Speaker 1: for such films as nineteen fifty cir Noo de Bergeract,

1298
01:10:01,840 --> 01:10:04,160
Speaker 1: a film for which he was the first Hispanic actor

1299
01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:07,120
Speaker 1: to win an Academy Award. He was also in fifty

1300
01:10:07,120 --> 01:10:10,320
Speaker 1: fours The Cane Mutiny, but his filmography, like a lot

1301
01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:14,280
Speaker 1: of folks, ultimately includes everything you know across the spectrum,

1302
01:10:14,320 --> 01:10:17,400
Speaker 1: from nineteen sixty two to Lawrence of Arabia to nineteen

1303
01:10:17,439 --> 01:10:21,440
Speaker 1: seventy seven's The Sentinel and Zoltan Hound of Dracula aka

1304
01:10:21,920 --> 01:10:22,800
Speaker 1: Dracula's Dog.

1305
01:10:25,080 --> 01:10:29,200
Speaker 3: Oh boy. I'd like Jose Ferrera's approach to this role,

1306
01:10:29,240 --> 01:10:33,439
Speaker 3: which is kind of unassuming, Like he he plays this

1307
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:36,720
Speaker 3: character in a different way than you might expect. You

1308
01:10:36,800 --> 01:10:41,040
Speaker 3: might expect the Emperor to have a more imposing presence

1309
01:10:41,080 --> 01:10:44,840
Speaker 3: and to be more to be more dominant and commanding,

1310
01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:49,520
Speaker 3: but instead he plays this character like a careful politician,

1311
01:10:49,760 --> 01:10:55,599
Speaker 3: someone who is who is clever and circumspect and trying

1312
01:10:55,640 --> 01:10:59,320
Speaker 3: to carefully manage his his relationships and allegiances.

1313
01:11:00,160 --> 01:11:02,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's a good read. There are a

1314
01:11:02,160 --> 01:11:03,560
Speaker 1: few scenes where I feel like he comes up a

1315
01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:06,559
Speaker 1: little bit befuddled. Yeah, I'm not sure to what extent

1316
01:11:06,640 --> 01:11:09,880
Speaker 1: that was intended, or if it's like I don't know

1317
01:11:09,880 --> 01:11:12,599
Speaker 1: what these lines mean, you know, but I would imagine

1318
01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:16,080
Speaker 1: it's more on the intended scale, because, yeah, Farrer was

1319
01:11:16,120 --> 01:11:20,280
Speaker 1: a great actor. We've talked about his son, Miguel Ferrera before,

1320
01:11:20,360 --> 01:11:23,240
Speaker 1: because he was of course in RoboCop and he was

1321
01:11:23,280 --> 01:11:24,519
Speaker 1: the uncle of George Clooney.

1322
01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:29,639
Speaker 3: M Miguel Ferrera was great in a lot of eighties movies,

1323
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:31,320
Speaker 3: just like playing Jerks.

1324
01:11:31,600 --> 01:11:37,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, now, real quick, I will mention that this is

1325
01:11:37,160 --> 01:11:41,160
Speaker 1: a character that has also been played by John Carlo Janini,

1326
01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:44,439
Speaker 1: that was in the mini series, and more recently by

1327
01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:49,040
Speaker 1: Christopher Walkin in Denny Vee's adaptations. I need to see

1328
01:11:49,360 --> 01:11:52,559
Speaker 1: doing part two once more before I fully make up

1329
01:11:52,600 --> 01:11:54,720
Speaker 1: my mind on Christopher Walkin's performance.

1330
01:11:54,960 --> 01:11:56,400
Speaker 3: Okay, all right.

1331
01:11:56,439 --> 01:11:59,839
Speaker 1: In the other character, Reverend mother Guy is Helen Mohayam

1332
01:12:00,240 --> 01:12:04,439
Speaker 1: is played by Sean Phillips born nineteen thirty three. So

1333
01:12:04,600 --> 01:12:06,680
Speaker 1: again not a member of House Krino, but she is

1334
01:12:06,680 --> 01:12:08,920
Speaker 1: the Emperor's truth sayer. She is a member of the

1335
01:12:08,920 --> 01:12:12,280
Speaker 1: Benijestrit order. We've talked about Phillips before because she played

1336
01:12:12,320 --> 01:12:15,479
Speaker 1: Cassiopeia in nineteen eighty one's Clash of the Titans, and

1337
01:12:15,520 --> 01:12:18,960
Speaker 1: she played the Knight Witch Chau in Ewok's The Battle

1338
01:12:18,960 --> 01:12:19,599
Speaker 1: for Indoor.

1339
01:12:20,439 --> 01:12:23,840
Speaker 3: Oh, I forgot about those connections, but she is wonderful

1340
01:12:23,840 --> 01:12:27,440
Speaker 3: in this role. This is this is another character who

1341
01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:30,519
Speaker 3: you know, kind of liked the Emperor in both cases.

1342
01:12:31,320 --> 01:12:35,160
Speaker 3: At first is shown to be a you know, just

1343
01:12:35,200 --> 01:12:37,960
Speaker 3: a character of kind of mystery and power. You're wondering

1344
01:12:38,040 --> 01:12:40,160
Speaker 3: like what is their power and what are they trying

1345
01:12:40,200 --> 01:12:43,120
Speaker 3: to do, but ultimately is revealed to kind of be

1346
01:12:43,200 --> 01:12:47,559
Speaker 3: a politician, like she's managing relationships between different factions. She's

1347
01:12:47,600 --> 01:12:51,000
Speaker 3: trying to keep the balance of power and keep her

1348
01:12:51,040 --> 01:12:54,719
Speaker 3: plans on track. And I think she does a great

1349
01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:55,639
Speaker 3: job with this role.

1350
01:12:56,000 --> 01:13:00,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Benigesters are masterful politicians and masterful manipulators,

1351
01:13:01,120 --> 01:13:03,679
Speaker 1: and I think that comes out more in the recent

1352
01:13:03,720 --> 01:13:08,320
Speaker 1: adaptations than it does here, perhaps, but because again, you know,

1353
01:13:08,360 --> 01:13:10,800
Speaker 1: one film focuses more on the on the Guild and

1354
01:13:10,840 --> 01:13:15,840
Speaker 1: the other films focus more on the benagestrates. But I

1355
01:13:15,920 --> 01:13:18,880
Speaker 1: have to say, as far as Sean Phillip's presence and

1356
01:13:19,120 --> 01:13:22,040
Speaker 1: her and interact and go, I always loved her in

1357
01:13:22,040 --> 01:13:26,479
Speaker 1: this role. Her costuming and hairstyling is just absolutely on point,

1358
01:13:26,520 --> 01:13:30,360
Speaker 1: and she brings just wonderful energy to the role. I'm

1359
01:13:30,360 --> 01:13:34,840
Speaker 1: hard pressed to pick a favorite Reverend Mother here across

1360
01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:38,160
Speaker 1: the various adaptations, because Charlotte Rampling is also great in

1361
01:13:38,280 --> 01:13:41,559
Speaker 1: recent films. Oh yes, yes, all right, well let's let's

1362
01:13:41,640 --> 01:13:44,000
Speaker 1: dive back into the scene. Okay, So we have here

1363
01:13:44,080 --> 01:13:48,559
Speaker 1: the Emperor and the Reverend Mother, and then the giant

1364
01:13:48,720 --> 01:13:53,640
Speaker 1: golden doors to the Emperor's throne room peel apart into recesses,

1365
01:13:53,960 --> 01:13:57,080
Speaker 1: and here comes the Guild Navigator. But at first we

1366
01:13:57,160 --> 01:14:00,519
Speaker 1: do not see the Guild Navigator in bodily form. We

1367
01:14:00,760 --> 01:14:07,320
Speaker 1: just see a giant black cylinder venting out these blasts

1368
01:14:07,360 --> 01:14:12,200
Speaker 1: of steam. It looks like a solid iron locomotive rolling

1369
01:14:12,240 --> 01:14:15,760
Speaker 1: along the floor, approaching the throne, flanked by all these

1370
01:14:15,800 --> 01:14:19,280
Speaker 1: weird monks in black. And I love this approach. It's

1371
01:14:19,320 --> 01:14:24,080
Speaker 1: just like, what is this object? Yeah? The absolute weirdness

1372
01:14:24,120 --> 01:14:28,240
Speaker 1: and grandeur of this sequence cannot be overstated. While we

1373
01:14:28,320 --> 01:14:31,680
Speaker 1: never meet a guild navigator or a guild steersman in

1374
01:14:31,720 --> 01:14:34,479
Speaker 1: the first done novel, they do become important later on

1375
01:14:34,520 --> 01:14:37,320
Speaker 1: and become There's an important character that is a Guild

1376
01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:41,880
Speaker 1: navigator in Dune Messiah. But this sequence in this film

1377
01:14:41,880 --> 01:14:44,599
Speaker 1: does a great job of just setting the bizarre tone

1378
01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:49,280
Speaker 1: for the rest of the film, you know, intrigue, baroque splendor, grotesqueness,

1379
01:14:49,600 --> 01:14:54,360
Speaker 1: and a lingering sense of confusion. So I absolutely love it.

1380
01:14:54,680 --> 01:14:58,760
Speaker 3: So, as you say, this scene is not in the

1381
01:14:58,840 --> 01:15:02,680
Speaker 3: first novel, when we never meet this weird character in

1382
01:15:02,680 --> 01:15:05,719
Speaker 3: the first novel, we're about to explain how weird he looks.

1383
01:15:05,960 --> 01:15:08,800
Speaker 3: So this is like purely a I guess. I don't

1384
01:15:08,800 --> 01:15:10,719
Speaker 3: know for sure whose choice it was, but it seems

1385
01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:14,000
Speaker 3: like a David Lynch choice to just make this movie

1386
01:15:14,560 --> 01:15:17,439
Speaker 3: much weirder than it had to be. Right at the beginning.

1387
01:15:18,120 --> 01:15:21,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, because to be clear, the new adaptations have no

1388
01:15:21,880 --> 01:15:24,720
Speaker 1: guild navigators, and then we briefly see the space and

1389
01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:29,360
Speaker 1: guild in Dune Part one, but we certainly never see

1390
01:15:29,400 --> 01:15:30,360
Speaker 1: a guild navigator.

1391
01:15:30,960 --> 01:15:34,800
Speaker 3: So so yeah, these monks approach like one with this

1392
01:15:34,880 --> 01:15:39,120
Speaker 3: giant black you know train. Essentially, one of the monks

1393
01:15:39,880 --> 01:15:43,679
Speaker 3: picks up a weird looking microphone starts speaking into it

1394
01:15:43,720 --> 01:15:47,679
Speaker 3: with this inhuman language, and it translates to the Benny

1395
01:15:47,760 --> 01:15:50,920
Speaker 3: jeser At Witch must leave, so the Emperor bids her leave.

1396
01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:52,599
Speaker 3: The Reverend Mother has to go to the other room.

1397
01:15:52,760 --> 01:15:56,120
Speaker 3: She does when they are alone with the Emperor. Wheels

1398
01:15:56,160 --> 01:15:59,439
Speaker 3: begin to turn on the front of the locomotive and

1399
01:15:59,560 --> 01:16:02,840
Speaker 3: metal are unlocking, and then the dark panels on the

1400
01:16:02,840 --> 01:16:06,240
Speaker 3: front of this huge object spread apart, and they reveal

1401
01:16:06,360 --> 01:16:10,040
Speaker 3: inside a giant tank, almost like a fish tank, but

1402
01:16:10,160 --> 01:16:14,680
Speaker 3: it is filled with orange smoke, occupied by a gigantic

1403
01:16:14,960 --> 01:16:19,519
Speaker 3: octopus like creature. And this is the Guild Navigator. It's

1404
01:16:19,520 --> 01:16:22,240
Speaker 3: someone who I think the the lore is that this

1405
01:16:22,280 --> 01:16:25,880
Speaker 3: is somebody who is once human in form but was

1406
01:16:26,000 --> 01:16:30,719
Speaker 3: mutated through it through their extreme use of the spice millage.

1407
01:16:31,439 --> 01:16:35,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, essentially, And in the novels they're kind of described

1408
01:16:35,760 --> 01:16:38,679
Speaker 1: more as like taking the form ultimately like a fish

1409
01:16:38,720 --> 01:16:41,720
Speaker 1: man like that. That's that's the form that they have

1410
01:16:42,040 --> 01:16:46,160
Speaker 1: mutated into. In this they go in a more almost

1411
01:16:46,240 --> 01:16:50,679
Speaker 1: kind of like embryonic direction. The creature is stranger, even

1412
01:16:50,760 --> 01:16:53,599
Speaker 1: stranger to behold, and it is, it is glorious. It

1413
01:16:53,640 --> 01:16:57,920
Speaker 1: is it is an unforgettable visual aspect of the poet

1414
01:16:57,920 --> 01:17:01,639
Speaker 1: motion picture and it's just again brilliantly weird and sets

1415
01:17:01,640 --> 01:17:02,839
Speaker 1: the tone for the whole picture.

1416
01:17:03,160 --> 01:17:06,559
Speaker 3: So, speaking to the Emperor, the Guild Navigator says, we

1417
01:17:06,640 --> 01:17:11,120
Speaker 3: have just folded space from IX, and the Emperor says yes,

1418
01:17:12,200 --> 01:17:15,960
Speaker 3: and the guild Navigator explains that it has psychically sensed

1419
01:17:16,080 --> 01:17:19,400
Speaker 3: a plan unfolding, in fact, not just a plan, but

1420
01:17:19,560 --> 01:17:25,200
Speaker 3: plans within plans. It suggests that it foresees a war

1421
01:17:25,360 --> 01:17:29,360
Speaker 3: between two great houses, house A Triades and how Harkonen,

1422
01:17:29,920 --> 01:17:32,559
Speaker 3: and it asks if this is according to a plan

1423
01:17:32,600 --> 01:17:35,840
Speaker 3: of the Emperor's doing, and the Emperor admits that it

1424
01:17:35,880 --> 01:17:39,759
Speaker 3: is so. The Emperor says, the Atriades house is building

1425
01:17:39,760 --> 01:17:44,080
Speaker 3: a secret army using a technique unknown to us, a

1426
01:17:44,080 --> 01:17:48,559
Speaker 3: technique involving sound. The Duke is becoming more popular in

1427
01:17:48,600 --> 01:17:51,400
Speaker 3: the lands Rod. He could threaten me. I think the

1428
01:17:51,479 --> 01:17:55,839
Speaker 3: lands Rod is the like the Parliament of this this universe. Essentially,

1429
01:17:56,200 --> 01:17:58,920
Speaker 3: he could threaten me. I have ordered House Atreadees to

1430
01:17:59,080 --> 01:18:03,280
Speaker 3: occupy a Wrais to mine the spice, thus replacing their

1431
01:18:03,400 --> 01:18:07,479
Speaker 3: enemies the Harconans. House Atraades will not refuse because of

1432
01:18:07,520 --> 01:18:11,200
Speaker 3: the tremendous power they think they will gain. Then, at

1433
01:18:11,200 --> 01:18:14,880
Speaker 3: an appointed time, Baron Harconin will return to Iracus and

1434
01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:18,439
Speaker 3: launch a sneak attack on how Satraides. I have promised

1435
01:18:18,479 --> 01:18:23,120
Speaker 3: the Baron five legions of my Sardecar terror troops. So

1436
01:18:23,280 --> 01:18:25,519
Speaker 3: once again we alluded to this earlier, but they just

1437
01:18:25,600 --> 01:18:29,920
Speaker 3: lay out the whole plot right there. I don't know

1438
01:18:29,960 --> 01:18:32,600
Speaker 3: what I think about that choice. On one hand, it

1439
01:18:32,680 --> 01:18:35,160
Speaker 3: might make the story easier to follow if you're not

1440
01:18:35,240 --> 01:18:38,280
Speaker 3: already familiar with it. On the other hand, it does

1441
01:18:38,360 --> 01:18:40,360
Speaker 3: kind of like spoil some of the surprise because this

1442
01:18:40,439 --> 01:18:42,880
Speaker 3: is exactly what happens. It just lays it all out there.

1443
01:18:43,360 --> 01:18:43,559
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1444
01:18:43,840 --> 01:18:46,800
Speaker 3: Anyway, the Guild Navigator seems okay with this, but it

1445
01:18:46,920 --> 01:18:50,519
Speaker 3: says that through its clairvoyance, it perceives that this plan

1446
01:18:50,600 --> 01:18:54,679
Speaker 3: may be complicated by Paul Atriades, the son of Duke

1447
01:18:54,800 --> 01:18:58,679
Speaker 3: Leto Atredees, and the Guild Navigator says, I want Paul

1448
01:18:58,760 --> 01:19:03,240
Speaker 3: Atredes killed. I did not say this. I was not here.

1449
01:19:04,120 --> 01:19:05,120
Speaker 1: I love this moment.

1450
01:19:05,280 --> 01:19:08,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then the Guild Navigator like retreats and the

1451
01:19:09,000 --> 01:19:12,920
Speaker 3: space monks scurry along with it, like running vacuum cleaners

1452
01:19:13,000 --> 01:19:15,719
Speaker 3: over the floor, which is a laugh out loud moment,

1453
01:19:15,760 --> 01:19:18,320
Speaker 3: but it's I'd love that detail. I don't know what

1454
01:19:18,360 --> 01:19:20,000
Speaker 3: it means, but it's really good.

1455
01:19:20,640 --> 01:19:23,000
Speaker 1: Was were they I'm not I'm unsure on exactly what's

1456
01:19:23,000 --> 01:19:25,840
Speaker 1: happening here either, but did they like slide the Guild

1457
01:19:25,920 --> 01:19:29,000
Speaker 1: Navigator enclosure out on like a thin layer of oil

1458
01:19:29,120 --> 01:19:32,280
Speaker 1: or slime, I don't know, and then retreat on it

1459
01:19:32,320 --> 01:19:34,040
Speaker 1: and they've got to like clean it a little bit.

1460
01:19:34,800 --> 01:19:38,080
Speaker 1: It's it's it's wondrous. It's wondrous. Yeah.

1461
01:19:38,120 --> 01:19:41,880
Speaker 3: So Emperor shaddam Is is left wondering what the Spacing Guild.

1462
01:19:41,960 --> 01:19:43,960
Speaker 3: Why would the Spacing Guild be so afraid of Duke

1463
01:19:44,040 --> 01:19:49,360
Speaker 3: Leto's son, He's just a boy. Meanwhile, in the other room,

1464
01:19:49,680 --> 01:19:53,599
Speaker 3: the Reverend Mother has been conducting psychic surveillance on the meeting.

1465
01:19:53,720 --> 01:19:56,519
Speaker 3: She knows what has been asked, and she goes back

1466
01:19:56,520 --> 01:19:58,600
Speaker 3: to a group of her Beni jessa At sisters and

1467
01:19:58,640 --> 01:20:03,720
Speaker 3: says they must examine Paul Treadees. They must understand his significance.

1468
01:20:04,520 --> 01:20:06,320
Speaker 3: And you know what we're looking at time here. And

1469
01:20:06,360 --> 01:20:08,200
Speaker 3: as we predicted at the beginning, if we tried to

1470
01:20:08,200 --> 01:20:10,200
Speaker 3: do this all in one episode, it would be like

1471
01:20:10,240 --> 01:20:13,920
Speaker 3: a three to four hour episode of Weird House. So

1472
01:20:14,080 --> 01:20:16,200
Speaker 3: I think what we're going to have to do is

1473
01:20:16,439 --> 01:20:19,840
Speaker 3: divide it. Here. We'll leave you hanging with this prologue

1474
01:20:19,840 --> 01:20:23,240
Speaker 3: that is mostly not from the novel Dune itself, and

1475
01:20:23,280 --> 01:20:25,599
Speaker 3: then next time we're going to come back and discuss

1476
01:20:25,640 --> 01:20:27,839
Speaker 3: more of the rest of the plot of Dune nineteen

1477
01:20:27,880 --> 01:20:30,920
Speaker 3: eighty four, more of the cast, and maybe have some

1478
01:20:31,479 --> 01:20:33,680
Speaker 3: retrospective thoughts once we get to the end of the

1479
01:20:33,680 --> 01:20:37,120
Speaker 3: plot about I don't know how the movie relates to

1480
01:20:37,200 --> 01:20:40,840
Speaker 3: the source material, how it fits into David Lynch's filmography

1481
01:20:41,000 --> 01:20:41,960
Speaker 3: and things like that.

1482
01:20:42,560 --> 01:20:44,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we'll wrap it up in the next episode

1483
01:20:44,960 --> 01:20:47,360
Speaker 1: of Weird House Cinema. And who knows in the future,

1484
01:20:47,560 --> 01:20:50,000
Speaker 1: if we do a Weird House rewind of this episode,

1485
01:20:50,120 --> 01:20:53,080
Speaker 1: maybe we'll cobble it all together into one big director's cut.

1486
01:20:53,280 --> 01:20:56,000
Speaker 3: We'll see just an unmanageable chunk.

1487
01:20:56,400 --> 01:21:02,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, just drop directly onto your phone. Yeah, all right, Well,

1488
01:21:02,320 --> 01:21:05,800
Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to continue to continuing the discussion, continuing

1489
01:21:05,840 --> 01:21:09,880
Speaker 1: our journey through David Lynch's Dune. In the meantime, will

1490
01:21:09,880 --> 01:21:12,240
Speaker 1: remind you that here unstuck to blow your mind and

1491
01:21:12,240 --> 01:21:14,240
Speaker 1: stuff to blow your mind feed We're primarily a science

1492
01:21:14,280 --> 01:21:18,200
Speaker 1: podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. That doesn't

1493
01:21:18,240 --> 01:21:20,760
Speaker 1: mean we haven't done core episodes about Dune. If you

1494
01:21:20,800 --> 01:21:24,240
Speaker 1: go into our back catalog, you will find we did

1495
01:21:24,280 --> 01:21:26,920
Speaker 1: some episodes on the science of Dune, on the philosophy

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Speaker 1: of Dune. Have a few short form episodes here and

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Speaker 1: there that deal with things from Dune. I did one monster. Fact.

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Speaker 1: These are on Wednesdays about donkeys of Dune because nobody

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01:21:36,840 --> 01:21:41,000
Speaker 1: ever adapts the donkeys of the planet Oracus. But in

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Speaker 1: the books it is clear that the that there are

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01:21:43,240 --> 01:21:45,680
Speaker 1: donkeys on this planet and they are used, and they

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01:21:45,720 --> 01:21:47,280
Speaker 1: do wear a modified still suit.

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Speaker 3: Oh boy, yeah, the books, the book books have so

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01:21:51,080 --> 01:21:53,759
Speaker 3: much weirdness of them suited one of your donkeys.

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Speaker 1: Let's see Mondays we do listener mails, and yes, indeed

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01:21:58,080 --> 01:22:00,479
Speaker 1: on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns talk about

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01:22:00,479 --> 01:22:02,720
Speaker 1: a weird film on Weird House Cinema. If you want

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01:22:02,760 --> 01:22:04,400
Speaker 1: to see a list of all the movies we've covered

1509
01:22:04,400 --> 01:22:06,600
Speaker 1: thus far in Weird House Cinema and sometimes get a

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01:22:06,680 --> 01:22:10,200
Speaker 1: glimpse at what's coming next, go to letterbox dot com

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Speaker 1: is L E T T E R bo x d

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Speaker 1: dot com. It's a fun side overall for you know,

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Speaker 1: chronicling movies, seeing you know what the different different connections

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01:22:18,240 --> 01:22:20,880
Speaker 1: are between different productions. But we are on there as

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01:22:20,960 --> 01:22:23,280
Speaker 1: weird House that's our username, and we have a list

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01:22:23,479 --> 01:22:25,040
Speaker 1: and you can look at all the things we've covered

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01:22:25,040 --> 01:22:28,360
Speaker 1: thus far. You can throw on different filters to see, like, okay,

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01:22:28,360 --> 01:22:30,559
Speaker 1: which movies f in the fifties did we do? Which?

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01:22:31,760 --> 01:22:34,559
Speaker 1: Which sci fi movies did we do? Which fantasy movies?

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01:22:34,600 --> 01:22:36,240
Speaker 1: And so forth. It's a lot of fun.

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Speaker 3: Huge thanks, as always to our excellent audio producer Jjposway.

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Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

1523
01:22:42,600 --> 01:22:45,320
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

1524
01:22:45,360 --> 01:22:47,439
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

1525
01:22:47,560 --> 01:22:50,320
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

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Speaker 3: your Mind dot com.

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Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

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Speaker 2: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.