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Speaker 1: I'll never forget the second day I took a zen pick,

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Speaker 1: I woke up. Oh, I feel something really weird? What

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Speaker 1: is it? I'd woken up and I wasn't hungry. I

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Speaker 1: don't remember that ever happening before. One of the worst,

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Speaker 1: most prolific.

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Speaker 2: Authors, and he has a brand new book, Magic Pill.

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Speaker 1: Award winning journalist yore Hand hiring forty seven percent of

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Speaker 1: Americans want to take these drunks. They are going to

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Speaker 1: change all our lives for better and for worse. And

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Speaker 1: this is something I think people are not being warned about.

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Speaker 2: Hey, everyone, I've got some huge news to share with you.

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Speaker 2: In the last ninety days, seventy nine point four percent

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Speaker 2: of our audience came from viewers and listeners that are

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Speaker 2: not subscribed to this channel. There's research that shows that

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Speaker 2: if you want to create a habit, make it easy

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Speaker 2: to access. By hitting the subscribe button, you're creating a

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Speaker 2: habit of learning how to be happier, healthier, and more healed.

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Speaker 2: This would also mean the absolute world to me and

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Speaker 2: help us make better, bigger writer content for you and

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Speaker 2: the world. Subscribe right now.

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Speaker 1: The number one health and wellness podcast.

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Speaker 2: Jay Sheety Jay Sheddy See yet Hey, everyone, Welcome back

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Speaker 2: to On Purpose, the place you come to become a happier,

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Speaker 2: healthier and more healed. You know that my goal here

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Speaker 2: is to sit down with incredible thinkers, thought leaders, people

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Speaker 2: who are crafting the way our mind works and defining culture,

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Speaker 2: to have conversations that truly, truly matter. Today I get

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Speaker 2: to interview one of my favorite authors. I've been wanting

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Speaker 2: him to be on the show for such a long

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Speaker 2: time and I can't believe he's finally, finally here. And

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Speaker 2: this new book is one of the ones that I

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Speaker 2: really hope that you take the time to read, because

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Speaker 2: I promise you you, your friend, a family member is having

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Speaker 2: to deal with the challenges that come with this theme

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Speaker 2: and concept in their daily, weekly, and monthly life. Today's

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Speaker 2: guest is none other than Joan Hari. His new book

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Speaker 2: is called The Magic Pill The Extraordinary Benefits and Disturbing

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Speaker 2: Risks of the new weight loss Drugs, and I can't

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Speaker 2: wait to dive into it with them. If you don't

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Speaker 2: have a copy of the book already, make sure you

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Speaker 2: go and grab one. We'll put the link in the

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Speaker 2: comments and caption below. Please welcome to On Purpose. Johann

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Speaker 2: Hiri Johanne, thank you for being here.

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Speaker 1: I'm ridiculously happy to be here. Thank you so much.

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Speaker 2: Honestly, I mean it. I was saying this to you offline,

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Speaker 2: but I'd like to repeat it for my audience. You're

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Speaker 2: one of the most gripping and captivating authors that have

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Speaker 2: read in a long time in the nonfiction space. I

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Speaker 2: enjoy your work so deeply. I feel completely enthralled when

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Speaker 2: I'm reading your work. I love the way you tell stories,

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Speaker 2: and you effortlessly, with so much grace and kindness, bring

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Speaker 2: people into a universe that they can understand very complex

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Speaker 2: things and make sense of how to apply them in

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Speaker 2: their life, which is so hard hard to do. So

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for all the work that you

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Speaker 2: do and the experiments you do on yourself.

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Speaker 1: Oh cheers. Thanks yea.

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Speaker 2: And the fact that we're from very similar places with

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Speaker 2: basically neighbors.

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Speaker 1: We might go a little bit too British in this

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Speaker 1: pub so I'm going to try and remember we are

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Speaker 1: talking to mostly American audience. Yeah. I was once in

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Speaker 1: a diner in fact, in an I hop in a

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Speaker 1: place called Cactus, Arizona, and I was trying to order pancakes.

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Speaker 1: I kept saying to have some pancakes please, just kept

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Speaker 1: going what what And after a while she said to me,

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Speaker 1: do you speak English? I was like, my people invented it.

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Speaker 1: What do you mean? Right? So, I'm very conscious that,

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Speaker 1: you know, we sound like weird refugees from downtown Abbey.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to try and americanize slightly.

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Speaker 2: Well. It's funny because every time i'm when I live

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Speaker 2: in the United States, but everyone in the United States

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Speaker 2: always tells me that they find the British accent quite

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Speaker 2: authoritative and they see it as a sign of education

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Speaker 2: and knowledge. And for me, when I heard ted talk

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Speaker 2: in the American accent from a professor or a researcher,

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Speaker 2: that's when I find that it's interesting. Do you feel

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Speaker 2: that way or what's your date?

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Speaker 1: Oh that's so interesting, I think because I spent I

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Speaker 1: live here half the year. Yeah, I think I'm kind

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Speaker 1: of torn between the value of our accents. But I'm

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Speaker 1: conscious that we get given like we basically go in

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Speaker 1: with the assumption of ten added IQ points in this situation.

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Speaker 2: Right, So yeah, and I'm like, if you knew me,

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Speaker 2: I'm not from a brush faring like I'm not anyway, we.

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Speaker 1: Sound like hilariously part like I was ritually raised by

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Speaker 1: my grandmother, whose job was to clean toilets. But we

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Speaker 1: sound basically like the queen.

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Speaker 2: Queen or not? But yeah, and so I want to

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Speaker 2: dive straight into this, and I want to start off

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Speaker 2: by saying, what are some of the biggest misconceptions you've

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Speaker 2: heard about ozempic almost things that people may even be

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Speaker 2: thinking as they're tuning into this or watching this right now.

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Speaker 2: What are some of the things people already think they

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Speaker 2: know that you actually believe in misconceptions.

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Speaker 1: I think the biggest misconception is that we should either

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Speaker 1: be yay, these drugs are amazing or do these drugs evil?

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Speaker 1: The biggest misconception is that we can be certain or

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Speaker 1: confident about these drugs at the moment. I never forget

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Speaker 1: from the moment I learned about these drugs existence. I

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Speaker 1: felt so conflicted. It's why I wrote the book, right.

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Speaker 1: I remember the moment so vividly. It was the winter

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Speaker 1: of twenty twenty two, and it was that moment when

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Speaker 1: the world was opening up again. And I got invited

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Speaker 1: to a party for the first time and god knows

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Speaker 1: how long, and I decided to go, and I was

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Speaker 1: in an uber on the way there, and the party

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Speaker 1: was thrown by an Oscar winning actor I think someone

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Speaker 1: you know actually, And I'm not saying that just a

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Speaker 1: name drop. It's relevant to what I had the next

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Speaker 1: And on the way there, I was feeling gained quite

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Speaker 1: a lot of weight during Lockdown. I was feeling kind

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Speaker 1: of schlubby. I was quite fat start a lockdown, I

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Speaker 1: was fatter then and I and I was thinking, Oh,

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Speaker 1: this is gonna be awkward. And then I suddenly realized

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Speaker 1: that kind of everyone I knew had gained some weight

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Speaker 1: during Lockdown, and I thought, oh, this is going to

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Speaker 1: be fascinating to see all these Hollywood stars with a

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Speaker 1: bit of chub on them. Right, And I arrived and

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Speaker 1: I started walking around, and it wasn't just that no

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Speaker 1: one had gained weight. Everyone was gaunt, right. Everyone looked

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Speaker 1: at their own Snapchat filter them they were like clearer

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Speaker 1: and cleaner and sharper. And I was kind of wandering

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Speaker 1: around a bit of a daze, and I bumped into

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Speaker 1: a friend of mine on the dance floor and I

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Speaker 1: said to her, WHOA, looks like everyone really did take

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Speaker 1: up pilazas during lockdown, And she laughed, like, you just said,

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Speaker 1: I must have looked puzzled, and she said, well, you

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Speaker 1: know it's not Pilata's right, And I had no I

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Speaker 1: did what she was talking about, and she pulled up

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Speaker 1: on her phone and a zenpic pen And that was

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Speaker 1: when I learned. I guess in the next couple of days,

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Speaker 1: that we now have a new formal weight loss drug

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Speaker 1: that works in a completely new way that causes the

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Speaker 1: average person who uses it to lose fifteen percent of

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Speaker 1: their body weight. In fact, with Munjiro, the next in

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Speaker 1: this class of drugs, you lose twenty one percent of

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Speaker 1: your body weight. And for the next, which will be

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Speaker 1: available next year, Triple G, you lose twenty four percent

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Speaker 1: of your body weight on average. And I remember, as

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Speaker 1: soon as I heard that, just feeling this tremendous division

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Speaker 1: in my own mind between. On the one hand, I

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Speaker 1: could obviously see the benefits. I'm older now than my

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Speaker 1: grandfather ever got to be. He died when he was

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Speaker 1: forty four of her heart attack. Loads of the men

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Speaker 1: in my family get heart problems. My dad had terrible

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Speaker 1: heart problems. My uncle died of a heart attack. My

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Speaker 1: other uncle had a heart attack that survived it. And

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Speaker 1: I knew that Sadly, the evident scientific evidence is very

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Speaker 1: clear that obesity makes it much more likely you'll have

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Speaker 1: heart problems along with many other medical problems. So I thought, Okay,

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Speaker 1: if there's a drug that can reverse or really reduce obesity,

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Speaker 1: that could have really big health benefits. I also thought,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, wait a minute, I've seen this story before. Right,

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Speaker 1: Every twenty years or so, a new miracle weight loss

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Speaker 1: drug is announced, We're told it's going to save us,

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Speaker 1: all loads of people take it. They always discover it

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Speaker 1: has some horrendous side effect that you know, means it

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Speaker 1: has to be pulled from the market, leaving a wave

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Speaker 1: of terribly damaged people in its way. So I thought,

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Speaker 1: are we going to see that again? I also thought,

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Speaker 1: what about the progress we've made with body positivity, what

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Speaker 1: about the what about people with eating disorders? There were

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Speaker 1: just so many doubts that came into my mind. So

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Speaker 1: to really get to the bottom of this, I ended

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Speaker 1: up going on this big journey all over the world,

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Speaker 1: from Iceland to Minneapolis to Okinawa in the south of

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Speaker 1: Japan to interview the leading experts in the world on it.

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Speaker 1: The biggest defenders of the drugs, the people who made

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Speaker 1: the breakthroughs that made them possible. The biggest critics of

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Speaker 1: the drugs, and I learned a huge amount about the

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Speaker 1: extraordinary benefits of these drugs. The disturbing risks of these

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Speaker 1: drugs is twelve quite disturbing risks. How it's going to

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Speaker 1: try transform the culture in all sorts of ways that

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Speaker 1: even people who don't want to take these drugs, it's

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Speaker 1: going to change the world around you in really fascinating ways.

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Speaker 1: But at the end of all that, it's a slightly

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Speaker 1: weird feeling. I still feel quite conflicted about it. So

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Speaker 1: I guess the misconception is that we should be so sure, right,

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Speaker 1: this is complicated, and we have to think through the complexity.

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Speaker 2: Soya, and this idea that we have of or this

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Speaker 2: misconception that you just mentioned that we have of this

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Speaker 2: idea of that it's all good or all bad. I

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Speaker 2: wondered through your research kind of how you felt about

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Speaker 2: that type of thinking. I feel like, as humans, we

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Speaker 2: have this very binary thinking about anything and everything. Right,

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Speaker 2: that's a good person, they're a mean person. They're a

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Speaker 2: healthy person, they are an unhealthy person. When it comes

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Speaker 2: to drugs. Oh, this one's perfect, this one's going to

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Speaker 2: ruin your life. What did you discover about people's binary

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Speaker 2: types of thinking through the research of this drug.

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Speaker 1: I guess because if you think about this, this drug

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Speaker 1: and the book is called magic, Pilker, there's three ways

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Speaker 1: we could think about this as magic, and the first

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Speaker 1: two are the kind of binary ways, right. The first

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Speaker 1: way is these drugs could be magic in the sense

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Speaker 1: that they could just solve the problem of obesity. And

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Speaker 1: I've got to tell you, there are days it feels

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Speaker 1: like that my whole life. I have hugely overeaten because

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Speaker 1: I was screwed up by the food industry and various

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Speaker 1: other things. And now, you know, to do the book.

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Speaker 1: I've been taking a zempic for a year. There's been

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Speaker 1: lots of ups and downs, but you know, now that

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Speaker 1: problem has largely gone away. I've lost an enormous amount

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Speaker 1: of weight forty two pounds. But also I've lost these

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Speaker 1: a lot of these destructive habits. So you know, it

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Speaker 1: could be magic in the sense of just like WHOA,

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Speaker 1: the problem solved. The second way it could be magic,

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Speaker 1: and I think this is a real possibility, is it

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Speaker 1: could be like a magic trick. It could be like,

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Speaker 1: you know, the conjurer who shows you a card trick

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Speaker 1: while secretly picking your pocket. It could be that, in

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Speaker 1: addition to giving you these benefits, the risks, and there

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Speaker 1: are really significant risks here, are so substantial that they

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Speaker 1: undo the good. I don't rule that out. In fact,

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Speaker 1: I think it's a significant possibility. But the third way

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Speaker 1: is actually the most likely, and I think it's the

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Speaker 1: one that gets us out of that kind of binary thinking.

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Speaker 1: And it's the think about the stories of magic that

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Speaker 1: we grew up with as kids. Right, think about it,

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Speaker 1: I'll add in, Right, you find the lamp, you rub it,

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Speaker 1: the genie appears, and he grants your wishes, and your

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Speaker 1: wish comes true, but never quite in the way you expected. Right,

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Speaker 1: You get what you wanted, but always at some weird

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Speaker 1: right angle that you never anticipated. And we're already seeing

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Speaker 1: that with these drugs. You've got to get out the

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Speaker 1: binary good or bad to think about that. But you know,

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Speaker 1: Barclay's Bank commissioned a really interesting, sober minded financial analyst

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Speaker 1: called Emily Field to just look at these drugs to

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Speaker 1: figure out, Okay, what's this going to mean for our

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Speaker 1: investment decisions going forward? What should be investing in, what

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Speaker 1: should be not investing in as she came back and said,

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Speaker 1: if you want a comparison for the effect of these drugs,

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Speaker 1: you've got to look at the invention of the smartphone. Right. So,

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Speaker 1: if you and me had been speaking in whatever it

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Speaker 1: was two thousand and seven when Steve Job's On veiled

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Speaker 1: the iPhone, we would not have been able to game out,

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Speaker 1: you know, door tod ash and TikTok and all these

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Speaker 1: things that have transformed our lives that flowed from that.

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Speaker 1: I think we're already beginning to see outside that kind

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Speaker 1: of narrow binary, such an array of things that happening

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Speaker 1: as a result of these forty seven percent of Americans

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Speaker 1: want to take these drugs. They are going to change

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Speaker 1: all our lives for better and for worse in a

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Speaker 1: way that I think we need to take a moment,

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Speaker 1: as this extraordinary transformation happens all around us, to really

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Speaker 1: think through the benefits, the risks, and what it's going

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Speaker 1: to mean for all of us and what we should

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Speaker 1: do about it. Now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk about how we got here. You mentioned

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Speaker 2: that the food industry has screwed us up, screwed you up.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned just there. Let's talk about how we got here.

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Speaker 2: How we even needed to turn towards these drugs, starting

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Speaker 2: with some of the issues that you think the food

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Speaker 2: industry has caused, and how we've been trained to almost

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Speaker 2: eat more, eat worse, eat unhealthier for ourselves.

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Speaker 1: For a long time, I thought when I was researching

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Speaker 1: the book that I was looking at two separate topics,

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Speaker 1: because I thought, at first, so I was looking at

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Speaker 1: why did obesity explode in our lifetimes massively explode? And

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Speaker 1: how do the drugs work? But actually I discovered these

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Speaker 1: are not separate topics. The same thing explains both that

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Speaker 1: it's core. So I would just urge everyone watching listening

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Speaker 1: to just stop for a moment and google photographs of

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Speaker 1: beaches in the United States or Britain in the year

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Speaker 1: I was born, nineteen seventy nine. Just take a look

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Speaker 1: at them. Right. If you look at them, they seem

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Speaker 1: really weird to us, because almost everyone is what we

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Speaker 1: would call skinny or jacked. Right, and you look at

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Speaker 1: it and you think that's really weird. Where's everyone else?

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Speaker 1: Was it like a skinny person convention in Atlantic City

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Speaker 1: that day? And then you look at the population figures, No,

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Speaker 1: that's what people look like in the year I was born,

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Speaker 1: We basically humans have a bit more than three hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand years in which obcity is extremely rare, and then

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Speaker 1: essentially in your lifetime and mind, it absolutely blows up.

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Speaker 1: Between the year I was born and the year I

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Speaker 1: turned twenty one, obesity doubled in the United States, and

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Speaker 1: then in the next twenty years severe obesity doubled again.

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Speaker 1: And it seems really weird. What's going on? What would

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Speaker 1: what could possibly explain this unprecedented transformation in our bodies

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Speaker 1: where we got to the point where now forty two

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Speaker 1: percent of Americans are obese, right, seems really weird. What happened?

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Speaker 1: We know what happened. This change takes place everywhere where

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Speaker 1: one thing happens. It's not where people become weak willed

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Speaker 1: or lack will power, or become lazy or all the

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Speaker 1: other cruel, stigmatizing things we say about overweight people. It

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Speaker 1: always happens where people move from mostly eating fresh, whole

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Speaker 1: foods that they prepared on the day to mostly eating

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Speaker 1: processed and ultra processed foods which are constructed in factories

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Speaker 1: out of chemicals in a process that actually isn't even

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Speaker 1: cool cooking. It's called manufacturing food, and it turns out

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Speaker 1: this new kind of food, which never existed before in

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Speaker 1: human history, affects our bodies in a completely different way

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Speaker 1: to the old kind of food that all humans before.

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Speaker 1: And there's loads of ways that's true. I go through

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Speaker 1: seven reasons in the book. But there's an experiment that

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Speaker 1: was actually done here in New York that to me

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Speaker 1: just totally distills what happened to us. Right. So it's

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Speaker 1: done by a brilliant Irish scientists called Professor Paul Kenny,

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Speaker 1: not just up the road from where we are. So

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Speaker 1: he's the head of neuroscience at Mount Sinai here in

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Speaker 1: New York. And he grew up in Dublin in Ireland,

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Speaker 1: and when he was in his twenties he moved to

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Speaker 1: San Diego in California to continue his scientific research. And

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Speaker 1: he quickly clocked, WHOA, Americans don't eat like Irish people

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Speaker 1: did at the time, much more process and ultra process food,

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Speaker 1: much more sugary, salty food, right, And like many a

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Speaker 1: good immigrant, he quickly assimilated. Within a year, he'd gained

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Speaker 1: like thirty pounds and he was like, why, what's going on?

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Speaker 1: And he felt like this new kind of food he

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Speaker 1: was eating wasn't just affecting his gut, it was affecting

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Speaker 1: his brain. It was changing what he wanted. So he

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Speaker 1: designed this experiment to test it, which I have nicknamed

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Speaker 1: a cheesecake Park. It's not the official name of it.

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Speaker 1: It's very simple. He got load of rats and he

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Speaker 1: raised them in a cage, and they had nothing to

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Speaker 1: eat but the kind of healthy thing that rats evolved

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Speaker 1: to eat over thousands of years, right in pellet form.

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Speaker 1: So when the rats have got the kind of natural

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Speaker 1: food they used to they would eat when they were hungry,

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Speaker 1: and they would stop when they were full, and they

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Speaker 1: never became overweight or obese. Given their kind of natural food.

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Speaker 1: They had a kind of innate nutritional wisdom that meant

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Speaker 1: they were gone, I've had enough now. Then Professor Kenny

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Speaker 1: introduced them to the American diet. He fried up some

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Speaker 1: baker and he bought a load of Sneakers' bars. Crucially,

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Speaker 1: he bought a load of cheesecake and he put it

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Speaker 1: in the cage alongside the option of the healthy food,

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Speaker 1: and the rats went crazy for the American diet. They

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Speaker 1: would literally hurl themselves into the cheesecake and eat their

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Speaker 1: way out, just completely slicked with cheesecake, right, and they

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Speaker 1: ate and ate and ate and ate, and all that

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Speaker 1: nutritional wisdom they'd had before disappeared. They just rapidly became obese.

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Speaker 1: In fact, the way Professor Kenny put it to me

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Speaker 1: was within a couple of days they were different animals,

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Speaker 1: and so this nutritional wisdom that they'd had before with

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Speaker 1: their natural food just disappeared. The brakes were off right.

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Speaker 1: Then Professor Kenny tweaked the experiment, and again in a

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Speaker 1: way that to a lifelong junk food adict seems to

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Speaker 1: be a bit cruel. He took away the American diet

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Speaker 1: and left them with nothing but the healthy food they've

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Speaker 1: grown up with. And he was pretty sure he knew

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Speaker 1: what would happen. That they would you eat more of

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Speaker 1: the healthy food than they had before, and this would

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Speaker 1: prove that junk food expands the number of calories you

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Speaker 1: eat in a day. That is not what happened. Something

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Speaker 1: much weirder happened. Once they'd had the American diet and

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Speaker 1: it was taken away, they refused to eat anything at all.

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Speaker 1: It was like they no longer recognized the healthy food

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Speaker 1: as food. It was only when they were really starving

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Speaker 1: that they finally went back and ate it. Now, what

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Speaker 1: this tells us, and there's loads of evidence in humans,

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Speaker 1: is the diet we're eating is profoundly undermining our ability

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Speaker 1: to ever feel full and to In fact, the key

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Speaker 1: word here both in explaining the rise of obest and

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Speaker 1: how these drugs work is satiety. It's not a word

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Speaker 1: we use that often in every day English, but it's

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Speaker 1: the feeling of being stated, the feeling of having had

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Speaker 1: enough and not wanting any more. And this kind of

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Speaker 1: food we eat profoundly steals our satiety. Right. And what

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Speaker 1: these drugs do is they give you back your sense

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Speaker 1: of society. They give you back your sense of being full,

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Speaker 1: but with a potential cost. Right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's so fascinating to hear how so much

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Speaker 2: of it has become stigmatized. You don't have enough self control,

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Speaker 2: you don't have enough willpower, you're not disciplined enough, and

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Speaker 2: that's why it's leading to these things. And as you're saying,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I've also read different work that talks about

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Speaker 2: how our portion sizes have increased. And I remember the

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Speaker 2: first time I came to the United States, I think

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Speaker 2: I was nine years old with my family, We'll come

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Speaker 2: into Orlando to go to Disney World. Yeah yeah, I

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Speaker 2: was going to get you to sing Theozenbic. So going

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Speaker 2: a second. But we come to Orlando, and I remember

376
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Speaker 2: like getting one of those you could get like this

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Speaker 2: jumbo size coke, like which was refillable at the gas station,

378
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Speaker 2: and then if you wanted, you could get the double

379
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Speaker 2: jumbo size coke, which is refill about every gas station.

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Speaker 2: And I couldn't believe. And that's all I wanted as

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Speaker 2: a kid, right, I was like, that's the coolest thing ever.

382
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Speaker 2: My parents got it for me, and then I was

383
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Speaker 2: drinking refillable cokes the whole time.

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Speaker 1: That's when you've got diabetes the first time, right, yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I'm pre disposed to diabetes because of my genetics,

386
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Speaker 2: so it's so interesting. And similarly for me, I grew

387
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,960
Speaker 2: up as a chocolate addict, so I ate a chocolate bar,

388
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Speaker 2: a chocolate yogurt, a chocolate biscuit, and a chocolate ice

389
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Speaker 2: cream every day growing up. And I was very overweight

390
00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:27,960
Speaker 2: growing up. I lost a lot of weight. We really, Yeah,

391
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Speaker 2: I'm until age fourteen fifteen, and then at fifteen I

392
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Speaker 2: started playing a lot of sports. I soon after became

393
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Speaker 2: vegetarian and I lost a ton of weight. And for me,

394
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Speaker 2: what happened though, was I still had bad habits. So

395
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Speaker 2: I got through university having a sprite and a chocolate

396
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Speaker 2: bar every single day, and it wouldn't show up as

397
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Speaker 2: fat physically, but it would show up as you know now,

398
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Speaker 2: I see it as glucose spikes. Now I see it

399
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Speaker 2: as an increase in the chances of having diabetes. And

400
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Speaker 2: it had in that direction. And my wife has been

401
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Speaker 2: the one to coach me more on the side of

402
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Speaker 2: self control and discipline and finding alternatives. And I've seen

403
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Speaker 2: a huge shift in my life ever since I've stopped

404
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Speaker 2: refined sugars, ever since I've switched my diet to whole

405
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,159
Speaker 2: foods less processed foods, and I've done it in a

406
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Speaker 2: very self controlled way. And how hard that is, I know,

407
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Speaker 2: how pro and I still am to having craving sometimes

408
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Speaker 2: and at the same time, I've lost taste for certain things. Anyway,

409
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Speaker 2: I'm saying all of that to ask you the question

410
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Speaker 2: of portion sizes have increased. We're eating fake foods that

411
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Speaker 2: are making us want them more. We don't feel satiated

412
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Speaker 2: when we're consuming. How does the drug actually make you

413
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Speaker 2: feel satiated, because I think it's important for people to

414
00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:49,399
Speaker 2: understand that what is happening in order for you to

415
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Speaker 2: feel satiated.

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Speaker 1: It's the weirdest thing. I'll tell you how it feels

417
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Speaker 1: as an individual, and then the science of it. I'll

418
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Speaker 1: never forget. The second day, I took a zenpic woke

419
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Speaker 1: up and I was lying in bed and I thought, oh,

420
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Speaker 1: I feel something really weird. What is it? And I

421
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,880
Speaker 1: couldn't locate in my body what it was. It took

422
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Speaker 1: me about five minutes and I suddenly realized I'd woken

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Speaker 1: up and I wasn't hungry. I don't remember that ever

424
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Speaker 1: happening before, right from when I was very young, you know,

425
00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:21,640
Speaker 1: grew up in a working class family. We ate constant

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Speaker 1: process and junk food. And I was in a bit

427
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Speaker 1: of a daze and I went to there's a cafe

428
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Speaker 1: just around the corner from where I live, and I

429
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Speaker 1: went in and I ordered what I used to order

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Speaker 1: every morning for breakfast when I'm in London. It was

431
00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:35,600
Speaker 1: a big brown roll with loads of chicken and loads

432
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:41,840
Speaker 1: of mayo in it, and I I had like three

433
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:45,600
Speaker 1: or four mouthfalls, and I just didn't want anymore. I

434
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:47,520
Speaker 1: was full. I was following a way that I never

435
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,199
Speaker 1: normally felt full. I thought, that's really weird, and I

436
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:51,680
Speaker 1: went for lunch that day. I went to there's a

437
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,960
Speaker 1: Turkish cafe next to my office, and I went in

438
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:58,280
Speaker 1: and I ordered what I used to order every day

439
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,400
Speaker 1: when I went there, which was a Mediterranean lamb. Again,

440
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,360
Speaker 1: I had three or four mouthfuls and I was just full.

441
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,080
Speaker 1: It was. It was so strange. It was like kind

442
00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:09,360
Speaker 1: of shutters had come down on my appetite. I can't

443
00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:11,399
Speaker 1: think of another way to describe it. Or it was

444
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,000
Speaker 1: more like when I ate. So imagine you had just

445
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,800
Speaker 1: had Thanksgiving dinner or Christmas dinner and you were stuffed,

446
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:18,840
Speaker 1: and then I came along and said, hey, j great news,

447
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,479
Speaker 1: I've got your KFC bucket. Right You'd just be like,

448
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,760
Speaker 1: oh no, But you get to that level really really quickly.

449
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:27,320
Speaker 1: So obviously, I interviewed the people who made the breakthroughs

450
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,800
Speaker 1: for the drug, scientists who'd worked on the key stages

451
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,400
Speaker 1: of developing the drug. One of the weird things about

452
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,720
Speaker 1: the drug is we don't actually know how it works,

453
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:37,919
Speaker 1: but there's some things we know for sure. There's a

454
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:39,840
Speaker 1: big amount of indeterminacy. But there's some things we know

455
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,120
Speaker 1: for sure. If you ate something now, it doesn't matter

456
00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:44,840
Speaker 1: what it is, something healthy unhealthy. After a little while,

457
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,800
Speaker 1: your pancreas would produce a hormone called GLP one, and

458
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:49,960
Speaker 1: GLP one, we now know, is just part of the

459
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:54,280
Speaker 1: natural signaling in your body saying hey, j it had enough. Stop.

460
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,640
Speaker 1: It's like the breaks, right, But that natural GLP one

461
00:21:58,000 --> 00:21:59,560
Speaker 1: only stays around in your system for a couple of

462
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,240
Speaker 1: minutes and it's just washed away. So what these drugs

463
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,199
Speaker 1: do is they inject you with an artificial copy of

464
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 1: GLP one that, instead of being washed away in a

465
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,360
Speaker 1: few minutes, stays around your system for a whole week.

466
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,480
Speaker 1: It's why when I go to the cafe, I only

467
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:13,600
Speaker 1: want three off our mouths because I'm already so close

468
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,639
Speaker 1: to form my GLP one or this artificial beasting of

469
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,960
Speaker 1: GLP one makes me feel full so quickly. So initially

470
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 1: it was thought when they were developing these drugs that

471
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:24,679
Speaker 1: because this hormone is made in the gart, it has

472
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,960
Speaker 1: an effect primarily on the gut. This must be a

473
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,119
Speaker 1: drug that's changing your gut in some way. And it

474
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:31,800
Speaker 1: clearly is right. And there's all sorts of ways. We

475
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,160
Speaker 1: know that, but from interviewing the cutting edge scientists working

476
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:40,399
Speaker 1: on this, particularly neuroscientists, it's increasingly clear that in fact,

477
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,159
Speaker 1: these drugs work primarily on your brain. You don't just

478
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,240
Speaker 1: have GLP one receptors in your gut. You've got them

479
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,119
Speaker 1: in your thyroid, which is important for something else, and

480
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:52,440
Speaker 1: your brain. And these drugs are profoundly changing your brain.

481
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,119
Speaker 1: We know that if you give these drugs to rats

482
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:55,720
Speaker 1: and then you kill them and cut their brains open,

483
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 1: which obviously you're not allowed to do with humans for

484
00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,919
Speaker 1: very good reasons, what you see is the drug go

485
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 1: everywhere in the rat's brain, everywhere, Right, So I remember

486
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,199
Speaker 1: when I learned that, and I learned it quite a

487
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 1: while into, you know, a few months into taking the drugs.

488
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 1: It's just a concerting thing to learn it. You've reads,

489
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,800
Speaker 1: how would I put it, It's a much more intimate transformation.

490
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:14,119
Speaker 2: Right.

491
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:15,879
Speaker 1: Saying that changes your gut, you're sort of like, oh, okay,

492
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,919
Speaker 1: that's fine. Saying that's changing your brain, and profoundly changing

493
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,440
Speaker 1: your brain partly explains why the effect is so powerful,

494
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 1: why these are so much more effective than all previous

495
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,879
Speaker 1: diet drugs. It also potentially raises some other benefits in

496
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 1: terms of benefits for addiction. It also raises some other

497
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,639
Speaker 1: risks around whether it may cause depression, because there's a

498
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,879
Speaker 1: debate about what it's actually doing in your brain. But

499
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 1: for me, it just sort of made me realize, Oh,

500
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 1: this is a, like, I say, a much more intimate

501
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 1: change than a lot of people realize, I think when

502
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 1: they start taking it.

503
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, who was it?

504
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 1: Was it?

505
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 2: Your nephew said, where is Joanne Harry? And what have

506
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:52,120
Speaker 2: you done with him?

507
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 1: To McDonald's. So I've had a long My relationship with

508
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 1: junk food is probably best typified by what are the

509
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 1: low points in my life? I was I could tell

510
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: you exactly when it happened. It was one pm on

511
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 1: Christmas Eve two thousand and nine and I went to

512
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 1: my local branch of KFC in East London and I

513
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 1: went in. I said, my standard order, which is so

514
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 1: disgusting I'm not going to repeat it. Healthy. It was

515
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,200
Speaker 1: literally bucket of fried chicken, and.

516
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,640
Speaker 2: I love a bucket of fried chickens. He was such

517
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 2: a healthy glow, like you've never eaten a chicken drum

518
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 2: st plant based now, but back in the day that

519
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 2: popcorn chicken would have been my jab. Yeah.

520
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,680
Speaker 1: The guy behind the counter said to me, oh yeah,

521
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 1: and I'm really glad you're here. I was like, all right,

522
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 1: and he went off behind where they fried the chicken

523
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,120
Speaker 1: and everything, and he came back with a massive Christmas

524
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 1: card in which they'd written to our best customer and

525
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,639
Speaker 1: everyone had written like personal messages to it. And one

526
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 1: of the reasons my heart sang is I thought, this

527
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 1: isn't even the fried chicken shop I come to the

528
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,680
Speaker 1: most how be happening to me? It was the second

529
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,919
Speaker 1: lowest moment in my life as an overweight person. That

530
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 1: the worst was the time that I was fat shamed

531
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 1: by the Dalai lamos, But no, there was this moment

532
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 1: where it's not even a joke, by the way, the

533
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,920
Speaker 1: horror of the dilarma another time. But so I'd had

534
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:17,440
Speaker 1: this very intimate relationship with this food all all my life,

535
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: and to have it one of the There were many

536
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,679
Speaker 1: good things that flowed from takeo ZMP for me, and

537
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: there are many benefits to it, as well as some

538
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: significant risks. But the weirdest moment for me actually was

539
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 1: another moment that happened in KFC. In fact, one of

540
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 1: my nephew said to me, a lot of the key

541
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 1: moments in your life seemed to happen in bright She's

542
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:38,919
Speaker 1: a KFC I heard. I like that, good point. But

543
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: the I had a real epiphany about this because what

544
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 1: these drugs do is they profoundly interrupt your underlying eating patterns. Right,

545
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 1: you can't eat the way you did before. And this

546
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,399
Speaker 1: is something I think people are not being warned about.

547
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: And I tried to take people through in a lot

548
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: of detail in the book, is you need to be

549
00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 1: prepared that because of that, a lot of the underlying

550
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: emotional issues that drive your eating may well come to

551
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 1: the surface. So I had this moment for me. I

552
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: was in Vegas. I was, as you know, I'm writing

553
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 1: a book about a series of crimes that have been

554
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 1: happening in Vegas that I've been researching for a long time.

555
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 1: And I was researching the murder of someone that I

556
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,119
Speaker 1: knew and loved, and it was obviously very painful, as

557
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: you can imagine, he was an incredible person. I was

558
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,640
Speaker 1: working on this and I just, you know, felt bad,

559
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 1: and I went to this branch of KFC on West Sahara,

560
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 1: which is one of the grimmest KFCs in the world,

561
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 1: and believe me, I could write a book about all

562
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: of them. And I went in. I'm reading on autopilots.

563
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 1: It was like seven eight months into taking the drugs.

564
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: I I went in and I ordered what I would

565
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 1: have ordered a year before. Right. I ordered a bucket

566
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,439
Speaker 1: of fried chicken, and I had a chicken and I

567
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,199
Speaker 1: wasn't even really thinking about the eating or anything. I

568
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 1: was and I had a chicken drumstick. And I looked

569
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: at this bucket and I thought, I can't eat this right,

570
00:26:58,320 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 1: Like I would throw up if I tried to eat.

571
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 1: I remember Colonel Sanders was on the wall, and it's

572
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: like he was looking at me, going, hey, what happened

573
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 1: to my best customer? And I were thinking, Oh, you're

574
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 1: just going to have to feel your feelings right, And

575
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 1: it's interesally if you look at the scientific evidence, there's

576
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 1: scientific evidence for five reasons why we eat. One of

577
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: them is the obvious one, to sustain our bodies. And

578
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: I would have told you before I started taking this

579
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 1: drug that was why I ate, right, But here I am.

580
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 1: Then I ate maybe three thousand, two hundred calories a day.

581
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,919
Speaker 1: Now I ate around a thousand eight hundred, So all

582
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 1: that other eating was doing something else right. And I

583
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 1: go through the four psychological reasons why we eat, they

584
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: don't obviously applies differently to different people, and those things

585
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 1: kind of get surfaced. And I remember going to one

586
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 1: of my closest friends when I got back from Vegas

587
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: and saying to hey, I've got to stop taking this.

588
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:52,199
Speaker 1: I can't take it. This is too upsetting. And she

589
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 1: said to me, go hand, stop taking it. If you

590
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: want to, that's fine, but you need to know these

591
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 1: drugs are not causing this issue. This issue was there

592
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 1: all along. In this case, what they're doing is giving

593
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 1: you an opportunity to deal with those issues in a

594
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 1: better way than drowning your feelings in saturated fats. Right,

595
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: And that's been a bumpy transitional that I'm glad. I'm

596
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,919
Speaker 1: glad I stuck with it, although lots of people respect

597
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 1: the fact.

598
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 2: They don't walk me through why people don't like, what

599
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 2: was their reasoning? What were they struggling with so much?

600
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: There's a lot of things people struggle with the drugs,

601
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 1: but in relation to it, I'm sure we'll get into

602
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 1: lots of them if you think about this specific one.

603
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: If you want to think about the benefits and risks

604
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 1: of these drugs when it comes to obesity. I actually

605
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,400
Speaker 1: think it's quite helpful to look at a parallel area

606
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: of science. We've only been giving these drugs to people

607
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 1: for obesti for a couple of years, but there's a

608
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 1: parallel area of science that can help us to think

609
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 1: about the benefits. And I think some of the answer

610
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: to your question. So, and it's barioatric surgery. Right up

611
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: to now, it's been very hard without some kind of

612
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: external intervention to lose huge amounts of weight and keep

613
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 1: it off. Clearly, you did it. There are lots of

614
00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 1: people who do it, but it's actually a surprisingly small

615
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: percentage of the people who try it succeed. I go

616
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: through why in the book, and that reasons are really important.

617
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: So actually the most effective way up to now has

618
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 1: been bariatric surgery, things like you know, stomach stapling, gastric sleeves.

619
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: Baratric surgery is a horrific operation. It's really grueling. You know,

620
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: one in a thousand people die during operation. It's no joke, right,

621
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: But the reason people put themselves through that is because

622
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: of the extraordinary benefits to their health. Afterwards if you

623
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: have back Now bear in mind they were severely obese

624
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 1: at the start, otherwise you wouldn't qualify for the surgery.

625
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: But if you have this surgery, in the seven years

626
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: that follow, you are fifty six percent less likely to

627
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: die of a heart attack, you are sixty percent less

628
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: likely to die of cancer, you are ninety two percent

629
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: less likely to die of diabetes related causes. In fact,

630
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 1: it's so good for your health that you're forty percent

631
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 1: less likely to die at all in that seven year period. Right.

632
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: And we know similarly that these drugs are moving us

633
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: in a similar direction. So if you take these drugs

634
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 1: and your BMI is higher than twenty seven at the start,

635
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: you are twenty percent less likely to have a heart

636
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 1: attack or stroke right in the years that follow. That's

637
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: very that's gonna that. It's close to my heart. It

638
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: is literally close to my heart. Right. But you also,

639
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: when you look at bariatric surgery, begin to see some

640
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 1: of the drawbacks, and I think the key to what

641
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: you're asking might be there. So one of the things

642
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 1: that I think is really shocking is if you have

643
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: bariatric surgery, your suicide rate quadruples in the years that

644
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: follow right, it's still quite a low risk. Most people

645
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: are baratric surgery. Glad they did it quadrupling. That's that's

646
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: a big effect, right, Just think why would that be?

647
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: What's going on I think there's lots of things going

648
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: on there. Some of it is actually the after effects

649
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: of the surgery are pretty onerous. Some of it is

650
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: you can't comfort in it anymore, so that pain comes

651
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 1: to the surface. Some of it is a lot of

652
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: people who are overweight kind of think well, if only

653
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: I was thin, my life would be really great, exactly,

654
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 1: and they lose the weight, and you know, your husband's

655
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: still an asshole, and you'll hate your job. And I

656
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: think there's also some give an example of a really

657
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 1: deep psychological issue that I think is surfaced in some

658
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: cases by these drugs and baratory surgery. Something I learned

659
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 1: about from a wonderful man who should have on actually

660
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: called Dr Vincent Feliciti. It was really hard for me

661
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: to learn about this. So Dr Feliti was a doctor

662
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: in San Diego in the early nineteen eighties and he

663
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: was approached by Kaiser Permanente, the big not for profit

664
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: medical provider in California, and they said, look, we've got

665
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: a problem. We don't know what to do. Please help us.

666
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: A problem they had was that obesity was hugely rising.

667
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 1: In fact, it was very low by our standards, but

668
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 1: it was rising. And they said, look, nothing we do work.

669
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 1: So we give people, you know, diet plans, we give

670
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: them personal trainers. It's not working. Can we give you

671
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 1: a load of money and just do Blue Sky's research

672
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 1: figure out what the hell we should do. So doctor

673
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 1: Felti took the money and was like, oh, what can

674
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: I do? So he started working with two hundred severely

675
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: obese people, people who weighed more than three hundred pounds

676
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: and had for a long time, and it's like what

677
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 1: could I do? And he had an idea that sounds

678
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 1: and in fact is kind of done. He said, what

679
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: would happen if really obese people literally stopped eating and

680
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: we gave them like, you know, vitamin sea shots so

681
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: they didn't get scurvy or whatever. Would they just burn

682
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 1: through the fat supplies in their body and get down

683
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 1: to a healthy weight. So, with a ton of medical supervision,

684
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: they did it, and incredibly, at first it worked. There

685
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: was a woman, hard core Susan not her real name,

686
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 1: who went down from being more than four hundred pounds

687
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: to one hundred and thirty eight pounds, staggering transformation. And

688
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: you know, her family are calling the doctor and saying

689
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 1: you saved her life. She's thrilled. And then one day

690
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 1: she cracked. She went to KFC or actually think that's projection.

691
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: She went somewhere and you know, started hugely of eating

692
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: again and quite quickly got back to a dangerous way.

693
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: And Dotte Feltti called her in. He said, Susan, what happened?

694
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: What happened? As she looked down, she was really ashamed.

695
00:32:55,360 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 1: She said, I don't know, I don't know. He said, well,

696
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 1: tell me about the day you cracked. Did anything in

697
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: particular happen that day? They didn't happen some other day.

698
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: It turned out something had happened that day that had

699
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: never happened to Susan. She was in a bar and

700
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:11,959
Speaker 1: a man hit on her, not in a nasty way,

701
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 1: in a nice way, and she felt completely freaked out

702
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 1: and went and started eating. That's when Dr Felti asked

703
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 1: hers something he'd never thought to ask her before. He said, Susan,

704
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: when did you gain your weight? In her case, it

705
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 1: was when she was eleven. He said, well, did anything

706
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: happen when you were eleven that didn't happen when you

707
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 1: were nine or when you were fourteen, anything in particular

708
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 1: happened that year and she looked down and she said, well,

709
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: that's when my grandfather started raping me. Dr Fillitti interviewed

710
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: everyone in the program. He discovered that sixty percent of

711
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 1: the women had made their extreme weight gain in the

712
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 1: aftermath of being sexually abused assaulted, And at first he

713
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 1: was like, what's going on. It doesn't make any sense,

714
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: and Susan explained it to him really well. She said,

715
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: overweight is overlooked and that's what I need to be right. Clearly,

716
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: obesity for women has a protective sexual function. You are

717
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: somewhat it can still happen, of course, but you are

718
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: less likely to be sexually assaulted if you're goin a

719
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 1: lot of weight. And so for Susan, losing a huge

720
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 1: amount of weight made her really frightened and feel really

721
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 1: vulnerable and brought her back to that terrified place of abuse.

722
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 1: That there's lots of psychological things that go on. That's

723
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 1: only one of many, but I think and of course

724
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,959
Speaker 1: it can give you an opportunity to deal with those feelings, right,

725
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: But again, it gives you a sense of like the

726
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 1: incredible psychological complexity of what's really going on here can

727
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 1: kind of come to the surface in complicated ways.

728
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, And what's interesting about that is, no matter what

729
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:43,439
Speaker 2: the psychological reason may be, you're almost dealing with that

730
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 2: feeling for the first time in three or four decades.

731
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 2: So it almost feels like a new feeling. Would that

732
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 2: be fair enough to say? It almost feels like what

733
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 2: I mean by that is there are certain feelings and

734
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 2: thoughts that we've had since we were young, and we've

735
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 2: found ways to cope with them. This is something that

736
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 2: you've been able to kind of put aside for ten

737
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 2: twenty thirty years, and all of a sudden, now that

738
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 2: this is blocking something which is giving rise to that,

739
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 2: it almost feels like, Wow, I haven't learned how to

740
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 2: deal with this for a long time.

741
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 1: That's really right. I think you're right. It's even worse

742
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 1: than a new feeling. It's a buried feeling. Right. And

743
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:27,799
Speaker 1: obesity is so laden with shame and the cruelty in

744
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 1: this culture towards you know, which I've experienced to some degree.

745
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 1: But women get it much much worse. If you have

746
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 1: a BMI higher than thirty five and you're a woman,

747
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,720
Speaker 1: forty two percent of those women get insulted literally every day, right.

748
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 1: And I really wanted to think this through because I

749
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: was very conscious that we've made so much progress in

750
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 1: this culture. I mean, we were nowhere near where we

751
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: need to be. What we've made some progress. I think

752
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 1: about this in one of the things I really worry

753
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: about in relation to these drugs. But I think it's

754
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 1: really distilled in a moment, probably the worst moment in

755
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:00,359
Speaker 1: the whole writing of the book for me. So, I've

756
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: got a niece called Erin, who's nineteen now, but in

757
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:04,279
Speaker 1: my head she's fixed as a six year old, like

758
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:06,919
Speaker 1: she's the baby of my family, she's the only girl.

759
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 1: She's the youngest of my brother's sister's children. But one

760
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: day I was facetiming with her. I'veter be taking the

761
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 1: drug for a while, and she was sort of praising

762
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 1: me in a teasing way. She was like, oh, I

763
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 1: never knew how to draw. Yeoh, I ne't ever knew

764
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: how to neck and I was kind of preening, and

765
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 1: then she looked down and she said, will you buy

766
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 1: me some mozampic and I laughed because I thought she

767
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: was kidding, and I realized she wasn't. And she's like

768
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:35,280
Speaker 1: a perfectly healthy weight she always has been. And I thought,

769
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 1: I've undone all the messages I've ever tried to give

770
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: her right about valuing yourself about and I thought, you know,

771
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,760
Speaker 1: she's grown up seeing a broader range of body types

772
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 1: and female celebrities than we ever grew up with, of course,

773
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 1: and now all of those women pretty much are boned thin, right.

774
00:36:58,000 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: And I really wanted to think this through because I

775
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: think this two categories here, which are quite different. There's

776
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 1: overweight and obese people who are taking these drugs to

777
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 1: get down to a healthy weight. Right now, they're still

778
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: incurring the twelve big risks that I write about in

779
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: Magic Pill. There's still a lot to discuss there, but

780
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,399
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot to defend there. Then you've

781
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 1: got people who were already a healthy weight or indeed skinny,

782
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 1: who are taken them to be super skinny. Now I

783
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 1: don't judge those people. We live in a culture that

784
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 1: makes women feel shit about their bodies whatever they do,

785
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 1: and there are tremendous pressures on them and I don't

786
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:32,040
Speaker 1: judge where those women are coming from at all, but

787
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,439
Speaker 1: they're incurring all the all the twelve risks for none

788
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 1: of the benefits, right, I mean, well, rather for esthetic benefits,

789
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: but not health benefits. And in fact they're endangering their

790
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,879
Speaker 1: own health in all sorts of complicated ways. To give

791
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 1: an obvious example, as you age, you naturally lose muscle mass.

792
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 1: Muscle mass is the total masts soft tissue in your

793
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: body that you need to like get out of a chair,

794
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: walk the walk up the stairs, whatever it might be.

795
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 1: So as you age, you naturally lose muscle mass from

796
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 1: the age of thirty depressingly. So if you're going going

797
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 1: into the aging process already with quite low muscle mass,

798
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:04,879
Speaker 1: which people who have taken the drugs to be super

799
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 1: skinny likely will be, it could cause you real problems.

800
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 1: When you're older. You know you'll be much less mobile,

801
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 1: You'll find it harder to walk up the stairs. You're

802
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: at risk of a condition called sarcopenia, which means poverty

803
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 1: of the flesh. It's where basically you just can't do

804
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 1: much because you're quite physically weak. So I think we've

805
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: got to sing which between those two things and then

806
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 1: we've got to think about also what this means for

807
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: body positivity and how we think about it in relationship.

808
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:30,359
Speaker 1: That was a particular person who helped me to think

809
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 1: about that. I could tell you a bit about her

810
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 1: if you.

811
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:33,319
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, please leave.

812
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 1: So this is woman you probably remember her Jay because

813
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 1: we're from the same place. So when we were kids,

814
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: you only ever saw fat people on television as the

815
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 1: butt of a joke, right, particularly overweight women.

816
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:46,319
Speaker 2: Right.

817
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,399
Speaker 1: It was vicious. And the first person I ever saw

818
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 1: challenge that I remember it blew my mind. It was

819
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 1: on Kilroy, which people don't know is like a if

820
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 1: you imagined a kind of dollar store version of Ricky Lake. Right.

821
00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 1: The first person I ever saw challengehip was this woman

822
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 1: called Shelly Bovie, who basically introduced body positivity to Britain.

823
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 1: She was the first person to everuld talk about this

824
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 1: and write about it in Britain on a big public stage.

825
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 1: So I went and tracked her down because I really

826
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 1: want to think this through with her. She's seventy six

827
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 1: now and her story, I think really helps her to

828
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: think through the complexity of this. So she grew up

829
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 1: in a kind of big working class town in Britain

830
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 1: called Port Talbot. I guess the equivalent in the US

831
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 1: would be like Scranton. She would put it the only

832
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 1: fat girl at her school. This was the nineteen sixties

833
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: and one day after class, her teacher said to her, Bovy,

834
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 1: stay behind, I need to talk to you. So she's

835
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 1: sort of sitting there thinking, hey, what did I do?

836
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,399
Speaker 1: And she goes up to the teacher and the teacher said,

837
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: you're much too fat. It's disgusting. Go see the school nurse.

838
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: She'll sort you out. So completely thrown, she goes to

839
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 1: see the school nurse and then I says, why are

840
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 1: you here? She said, well, the teacher saysn't too fat,

841
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 1: and then I said take off your clothes. I'm going

842
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,879
Speaker 1: to look at you. And the nurse looked at her

843
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,799
Speaker 1: and said, oh disgusting, you're too fat and just berated her,

844
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 1: said you're greedy, you're a pig eat less, and Shelley

845
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 1: completely throwing kind of leaves. And she was soaking up

846
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 1: this kind of abuse the whole time. Right, girls were

847
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 1: constantly saying to her, thank God, I don't look like you.

848
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: And really, her whole life she soak up this abuse.

849
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,839
Speaker 1: When she got pregnant. She went to the doctor. First

850
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: thing the doctor said was shouldn't be pregnant when you're

851
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 1: as fat as you are. When she gave birth, she

852
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: had a very painful birth, difficult birth. She's lying there

853
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 1: covered in blood, and the midwife said to you know,

854
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:27,840
Speaker 1: you really need to lose some weight. And when her

855
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 1: baby wouldn't attach he wasn't feeding properly, she went to

856
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 1: the doctor. The doctor said, what are you trying to do?

857
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 1: Make the baby as fat as you are? Over and

858
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 1: abest people are soaking this up all the time, and

859
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 1: most of them just internalize it. Shelley told me she

860
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 1: had never looked to her body naked, even in the shower.

861
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,399
Speaker 1: She would sort of wash herself but not look because

862
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 1: she felt such hatred for her own body. And one

863
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 1: day she learned in the US there was this movement

864
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: which at the time called itself fat pride. There's still

865
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:56,800
Speaker 1: some people who use that term. Now we would probably

866
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:00,120
Speaker 1: call it more body positivity. Who just said, why are

867
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 1: we taking it? This is like, this is just cruelty,

868
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 1: This is like racism or homophobia or sexism. Just no,

869
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:08,360
Speaker 1: we're not going to be treated like this. You're not

870
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 1: going to get to talk to us like that. And

871
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 1: so she wrote the first ever book advocating for body

872
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 1: positivity still stands up now, brilliant book call the Forbibven Body,

873
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: in which she argued against this stigma. And when I

874
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: tracked Shelly down, she stressed to me she's really proud

875
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: of everything she said about stigma, and I think she's

876
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 1: one hundred percent right to be. Stigma A is just

877
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 1: a form of bullying, and b makes the problem much worse.

878
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 1: Lindy West, is a brilliant body positivity advocate, said people

879
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 1: don't take good care of everything they hate. If you make

880
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: people hate their bodies, it doesn't make them take better

881
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 1: care of them. But something happened to Shelley next. I

882
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 1: think if we're going to be truthful and compassionate, we

883
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 1: have to talk about Shelley was very overweight. She was

884
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 1: not yet fifty, and she was losing the ability to

885
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: walk and so she had to be in a wheelchair.

886
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 1: And she went to her doctor and a doctor said, well,

887
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 1: because of your weight, because the strain that's putting, you've

888
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 1: got problems with your heart. And Shelley felt this profound

889
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: dilemma because she was so proud of everything she said

890
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 1: about stigma. At first she thought, well, I want to

891
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: talk about these health challenges, but is this contradictory. There

892
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,879
Speaker 1: was at the time a newsletter in Britain called fat News,

893
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,959
Speaker 1: which is like a body positivity newsletter, and she wanted

894
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 1: to write about this and they said, no, that's not

895
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 1: what we want. We're here to tell the positive news.

896
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 1: And she said, but if we love ourselves, don't we

897
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:30,320
Speaker 1: want to tell the whole truth. She felt really conflicted

898
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 1: about this and for a long time she felt like

899
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 1: it was either or either you're again stigma or you're

900
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 1: in favor of reducing a b CD where you can.

901
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 1: But you know, she then and she's the first to

902
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 1: acknowledge this is extremely hard to do. But she lost

903
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,799
Speaker 1: a lot of weight through dieting. She went from being

904
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,959
Speaker 1: unable to walk to being able to run. Her health

905
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,840
Speaker 1: massively improved. Her heart problems went away, which tends to

906
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 1: happen when you're reverse obesd like when we talked about

907
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 1: with the bariotric surgery and Shelley I thought put it

908
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 1: to me in a really way. She said, it's not

909
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 1: either or, it's both. And if you love someone who's obese,

910
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 1: as everyone watching will. I'm pretty sure you want to

911
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,760
Speaker 1: protect them from two things. You want to protect them

912
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: from cruelty and bullying, and you want to protect them

913
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,800
Speaker 1: if you possibly can, from the more than two hundred

914
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 1: diseases and health complications that are made much more likely

915
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: by being overweight or obese. And I was kind of

916
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 1: shocked when I looked at the science of this with

917
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 1: an open mind. I'm very happy to challenge scientific consensus.

918
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 1: I've done it before in my previous books. But when

919
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,280
Speaker 1: you look at the scientific evidence, and I was trained

920
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 1: to assess scientific evidence at Cambridge University, I was kind

921
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:43,839
Speaker 1: of taken aback by how bad obesity is for your

922
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 1: health on average. Of course, there are exceptions. My mother

923
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,319
Speaker 1: smokes seventy cigarettes a day. She's alive and well at

924
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 1: there just seventy eight. But she's an outlier. I mean,

925
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:52,839
Speaker 1: if you think about something as simple as diabetes, right,

926
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 1: I'm really embarrassed to say this, but I thought if

927
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 1: you'd asked me a couple of years ago, Okay, I

928
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 1: knew that obesiently makes diabetes much more likely. If you're

929
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 1: obese when you're eighteen, you have a seventy percent chance

930
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 1: of becoming diabetic in your life. But I thought, okay,

931
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 1: that's not good. But as long as you've got good

932
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,799
Speaker 1: health insurance and you get insulin, you're basically like everyone else.

933
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,919
Speaker 1: A diabetic with insulin is like me or you. That's

934
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 1: not true at all when I a'ter feed the leading

935
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 1: you know doctors who are leading people who treat diabetics.

936
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 1: When you look at the scientific evidence, diabetes knocks fifteen

937
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 1: years off your life on average. It's the biggest preventable

938
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 1: cause of blindness in this country. More people have to

939
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 1: have a limb or extremity amputated because of diabetes in

940
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 1: the US than because they got shot. And you will

941
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 1: have noticed a lot of us get shot right. In fact,

942
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 1: it's the effects are so bad that one of the

943
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 1: leading doctors in Britain who treats diabetics, Dr Max Pemberton,

944
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 1: said to me, if you gave me a choice between

945
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 1: becoming diabetic or becoming HIV positive, I would choose to

946
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 1: become HIV positive because if you're HIV positive and you

947
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 1: get treatment, you live as long as everyone else. That

948
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 1: is not true of diabetics. Type two diabetics. You have

949
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 1: a shorter life and you're much more likely to have

950
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:02,919
Speaker 1: a terrible last few years where you're blind or you're

951
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,959
Speaker 1: horribly you know, your body is mutilated. And I found

952
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 1: that so frightening to take on. And I'm conscious that

953
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 1: loads of people hearing that will experience that and as

954
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 1: very painful. It is extremely painful to hear, and it's

955
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 1: an extremely painful truth, and we have to communicate it

956
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 1: with great compassion and love and not as concern trolling.

957
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:26,319
Speaker 1: And I hate even saying it because you can see

958
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 1: how it gives ammunition to the bullies in a way

959
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 1: because they use that. It's like, oh babe, I'm just

960
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 1: worried about your health. I get that. But Shelley really

961
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,839
Speaker 1: taught me. Yeah, she put it. We have to live

962
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 1: in reality and we have to be as compassionate as

963
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,399
Speaker 1: we can within that reality. We have to do both right.

964
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 1: And I'm conscious this is a long answer about you.

965
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 1: Give an example. One other person helping to think about

966
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 1: this as a brilliant guy interview called Jeff Parker's a

967
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:55,879
Speaker 1: sixty seven year old retired lighting engineer in San Francisco,

968
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,840
Speaker 1: and Jeff a couple of years ago was very severely overweight.

969
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,759
Speaker 1: He was finding it painful to walk. He had doubt,

970
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:06,400
Speaker 1: He had liver problems, kidney problems. He was taking fistfuls

971
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,240
Speaker 1: of pills every day, and he started to take Munjaro,

972
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 1: which is one of the new weight loss drugs, and

973
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 1: he lost a lot of weight. All his health problems

974
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 1: went into remission, and doctor almost took him off the pills.

975
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 1: Now he walks his dog over the Golden Gate Bridge

976
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:22,359
Speaker 1: every day. He said, you know, I feel like I'm

977
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 1: gonna enjoy my retirement. Now. I don't think we can

978
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 1: say to someone like Jeff that that improvement is not meaningful. Right,

979
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 1: there are many Maybe the risks of the drugs will

980
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 1: outweigh that benefit to him and for others. That's a

981
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 1: real possibility. It's why I put a lot of weight

982
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 1: on the twelve risks of these drugs in the book.

983
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:41,880
Speaker 1: But I do think we have to acknowledge that a

984
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 1: lot of people who do successfully reverse their OBESTI, which

985
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 1: is much easier to do now than it's been before,

986
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: do experience a massive improvement in the quality of their life.

987
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 1: I do think we're not being honest with people if

988
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:53,760
Speaker 1: we don't explain that as well.

989
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 2: Thank you for going into the Actually it wasn't it,

990
00:46:56,560 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 2: It wasn't It was a very thoughtful Lansen. Those stories

991
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 2: give us an entry way into the psychology and the

992
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 2: mind of so many of us and what we're all

993
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 2: struggling with. With Shelley, I'm intrigued. How is she now

994
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 2: perceived by her community that she was the face for

995
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 2: having now dieted lost weight. It sounds like and may

996
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 2: appear different visually. How is she now perceived and how

997
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:26,320
Speaker 2: does she feel about reconnecting with that community and talking

998
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 2: about it with them?

999
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:29,440
Speaker 1: So as she would say, there's a she speaks for

1000
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 1: herself much better than I can. I don't want too

1001
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 1: much triloquisis, but because she's a very articulate person, I

1002
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:38,919
Speaker 1: think it's really complicated, and I understand why it's complicated.

1003
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,879
Speaker 1: Some people saw her as a sellout, and I think

1004
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 1: Shelley's attitude was what kind of body positivity would it

1005
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 1: be that would shame me for keeping my body alive?

1006
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:51,319
Speaker 1: And there's a big division going on now among body

1007
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 1: positivity advocates. Well, they have many good arguments, and it's

1008
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 1: worth stressing. So if we think about the history of

1009
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 1: diet drugs, think about the seventies. One of the things

1010
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 1: that one of the first things the Fat Private movement

1011
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 1: did was point out, so there were diet drugs in

1012
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,760
Speaker 1: the seventies that were in fetamins. Right, They're hugely popular.

1013
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 1: There were staggering figures like more than ten million and

1014
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,840
Speaker 1: fetamine prescriptions were written in nineteen seventy in this country

1015
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 1: for weight loss, right. And it turns out taking loads

1016
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 1: of speed to lose weight not a good idea. Who knew,

1017
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 1: and they had to be taken off the market because

1018
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 1: it screws you up, right, partly because you developed tolerance

1019
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:28,800
Speaker 1: to these drugs. You have to take higher and higher

1020
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:30,879
Speaker 1: doses to get the same effect. And if you're taking

1021
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 1: really high doses of speed, as anyone who knows any

1022
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:36,800
Speaker 1: recreational drug users well know, don't end so well for you.

1023
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 1: You know, skinny but psychotic is not a great trade off.

1024
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 1: I hope for some people it is, but not for me.

1025
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:44,239
Speaker 1: And so a lot of the Fat Private movement very

1026
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 1: presciently warned at the time, you know, this is really

1027
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 1: good to screw people up, don't do it right. And

1028
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 1: they've been entirely vindicated by that. And it may be

1029
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 1: and I think there's a significant chance of this. I

1030
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 1: don't think it's the most likely option, but I do

1031
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 1: think it's a significant chance that they'll be vindicated on

1032
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 1: these drugs as well. Going Look, this is a big

1033
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 1: risk right for me, especially with the history of my

1034
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 1: own family. What I felt I had to do was

1035
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 1: waigh two risks, and I think that's what most people

1036
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 1: watching and listening, this will be the position they're in. Realistically,

1037
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 1: I was going to remain obese. I'd tried dieting many times.

1038
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 1: I always ended up fatter than I was at the start.

1039
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 1: I tried insane and tense diets. I'd gone to diet

1040
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 1: camps in Austria where they give you tea for I

1041
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 1: done it all right. Realistically, I was going to carry

1042
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 1: on being obese to some level. So for me, the

1043
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 1: choice was what are the risks of continuing to be

1044
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:45,759
Speaker 1: obese versus what are the risks of these drugs? That

1045
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 1: is not an easy calculation. There's a lot we don't know.

1046
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,320
Speaker 1: We're learning more and more. There's a lot of detail

1047
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 1: in the book that I think people don't know about.

1048
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 1: It's a hard calculation, and I don't know if I've

1049
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 1: made the right choice for myself. It may well be

1050
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 1: there's a significant chance that they will that their caution

1051
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:09,359
Speaker 1: about this will be vindicated, and they're right that they're

1052
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:12,279
Speaker 1: also right to say it's clearly not the case that

1053
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:15,879
Speaker 1: we're only taking this to deal with health problems, right,

1054
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 1: And that's true to me as well. There's a significant

1055
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:22,240
Speaker 1: amount of just relief from the stigma being fat, vanity.

1056
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 1: I like being thinner, right, because of the culture we

1057
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 1: live in. Some of that is the health benefits and

1058
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 1: the risk to my heart, of course, but some of

1059
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:32,839
Speaker 1: that isn't a big part of it isn't. We've got

1060
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 1: a level with people about that, so it's possible that

1061
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:41,799
Speaker 1: they'll they'll be vindicated, and even if they aren't, we've

1062
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 1: really got to understand where it comes from. If you

1063
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 1: are soaking up abuse your whole life, that cruelty, that bullying,

1064
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:55,720
Speaker 1: I totally get. You know, there's an analogy I always

1065
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 1: think of, which is I'm gay the height of the

1066
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:06,240
Speaker 1: age crime. When doctors explained to gay men, look, because

1067
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:08,880
Speaker 1: of the nature of anal sex and because gay men

1068
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 1: tend to have a lot more sexual partners than other

1069
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 1: sexual combinations, this is going to affect gay men much

1070
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 1: worse than other communities. So they wanted to you know,

1071
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 1: shut down the bath houses in San Francisco. Really warm

1072
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:22,120
Speaker 1: people say while we don't know, you shouldn't have sex, right,

1073
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:26,320
Speaker 1: and a lot of gay men were like, our whole lives,

1074
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:30,280
Speaker 1: we've been told our sexuality is disgusting, we're diseased, we're evil,

1075
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 1: and now you come along and tell us this as well.

1076
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 1: We're going to carry on going to the bath houses.

1077
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:35,839
Speaker 1: We're going to carry on. And I get where they're

1078
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 1: coming from. I might well have been like that myself

1079
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 1: at the time, but now we realize looking back where

1080
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 1: you have to separate the stigma from the scientific advice. Right,

1081
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 1: there was I'm sure there were lots of homophobes picking

1082
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:48,320
Speaker 1: up those arguments and fullying gay people exactly, but equally

1083
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 1: there was the scientific reality, which is it was much

1084
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:53,440
Speaker 1: more likely to affect gay people, and lots of those

1085
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:56,319
Speaker 1: people who refuse that advice. Tragically, I'm not here now

1086
00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:58,919
Speaker 1: because they refused it, so I think. And that doesn't

1087
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:01,280
Speaker 1: mean I stand over those people people and go what fools.

1088
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 1: I totally get it, But I do think we have to,

1089
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 1: as Shelley says, we have to separate out two things.

1090
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:11,279
Speaker 1: We have to separate out the stigmatizing, cruel things that

1091
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:15,319
Speaker 1: are said from things that are just physic Think about cancer, right,

1092
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 1: The leading cancer group in Europe, Cancer Research UK, explain,

1093
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 1: if you carry excess weight in your body, it doesn't

1094
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:24,880
Speaker 1: just sit there. It's not inert it's active. Right. It

1095
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:28,360
Speaker 1: sends signals through your body, and one of those signals

1096
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 1: is for your cells to divide more rapidly, which can

1097
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:31,840
Speaker 1: cause cancer. This is why obst is one of the

1098
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 1: biggest causes of cancer in the developed world. Right. That's true.

1099
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 1: Even if we've got rid of all the stigma in

1100
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 1: the world, which we passionately should fight to do, it's

1101
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:42,520
Speaker 1: still going to make you more like to get cancer. Right.

1102
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:46,920
Speaker 1: We can't. That's not something we can undo with an argument,

1103
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 1: and therefore we do need to think about this. Also,

1104
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:53,239
Speaker 1: though I'm very conscious the most important thing we've got

1105
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:56,520
Speaker 1: to do, so people like me are in a shitty trap. Right.

1106
00:52:56,520 --> 00:53:00,719
Speaker 1: You've got to choose risky medical condition, risky drug. But

1107
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 1: that is not inevitable and we should not tolerate that

1108
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 1: being the choice for our children. Right Japan, for example. Right,

1109
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:09,439
Speaker 1: I can explain how they did it, but the key

1110
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:11,880
Speaker 1: thing to understand is the way one expert put it.

1111
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 1: For me, A brilliant man named Professor Michael Lowe at

1112
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:18,800
Speaker 1: Drexel University in Philly is processed and ultra process feeds

1113
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:22,880
Speaker 1: dug this hole. They stole our satiety and the drugs

1114
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 1: fill it. In the way he put it was, so

1115
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 1: you've got to see that these drugs are an artificial

1116
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:29,840
Speaker 1: solution to an artificial problem. Right, So we've got to

1117
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:31,840
Speaker 1: pull back. In addition to the dilema about the drugs

1118
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 1: for people like me, we've got to pull back and

1119
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 1: go how did we get here and how do we

1120
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 1: make sure the next generation of kids are not in

1121
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 1: that position? And absolutely this is the dilemma a lot

1122
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:43,799
Speaker 1: of ours face, but it doesn't have to be the

1123
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 1: dilemma for our children and grandchildren. And I went to

1124
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:48,400
Speaker 1: places that have solved this dilemma that show us the

1125
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:51,319
Speaker 1: way out. So that's the kind of broader argument which

1126
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 1: I think is so important to stress as well.

1127
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,719
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, before we get to Japan and before we

1128
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:59,440
Speaker 2: get to those So the bugle's back and produced to

1129
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:01,879
Speaker 2: report to guys investors, and it told them to get

1130
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 2: out of investing in fast food and ice cream because

1131
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:07,919
Speaker 2: those markets are going to tank. Financial advisors are also

1132
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 2: expecting a decline in the demand for knee and hip replacement.

1133
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:14,839
Speaker 2: But when you look at investment, I found that fascinating.

1134
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:20,320
Speaker 2: I'm like, do I believe that fast food is growing

1135
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 2: or is shrinking? And while I see the rise of

1136
00:54:23,719 --> 00:54:27,319
Speaker 2: organic vegetables, while I see but still expensive, while I

1137
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 2: see the rise in people proposing a largely plant based diet,

1138
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:35,359
Speaker 2: if not not not full, but a larger plant based diet,

1139
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 2: again more expensive, harder to access, maybe maybe difficult to

1140
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 2: know what to do. I don't see fast food shrinking

1141
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:45,200
Speaker 2: as an industry. Did you see that? Are you seeing

1142
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 2: that through your research where you seeing investment shift and

1143
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 2: redirect or is that a myth as well?

1144
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 1: Crispy Kreme stock is down. The head of Nesle Mark

1145
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:56,479
Speaker 1: Schneider has been making very nervous noises about that ice

1146
00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 1: cream and confectionery market. So we've got to look at

1147
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 1: the longer term trend. Forty seven percent of Americans, so

1148
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 1: they want to take these drugs, and there's a big

1149
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 1: access question at the moment. But eight years from now

1150
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:11,319
Speaker 1: a ZEMPI goes out of patent. At that point it

1151
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 1: will be a daily pill and it will cost about

1152
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 1: a dollar a day. I would anticipate forty seven percent

1153
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 1: as an underestimate for how how many people will take it.

1154
00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:21,480
Speaker 1: Provided some of the twelve big risks that I write

1155
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:23,000
Speaker 1: about in the book don't blow up, which is a

1156
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:25,239
Speaker 1: real problem. I think about Jeff Parker, the guy I

1157
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:28,239
Speaker 1: just talked about in San Francisco. Everyone like Jeff becomes

1158
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:31,240
Speaker 1: a walking advertisement for the drug and goes what happened

1159
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:33,120
Speaker 1: to Jeff? He looks completely different. My god, he's so

1160
00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:35,440
Speaker 1: much healthier. So you can see how it creates a

1161
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 1: huge growth, growth effect. So you're right, at the moment,

1162
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:41,120
Speaker 1: we've got two trends. We've got the ongoing explosion of

1163
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:43,760
Speaker 1: fast food, which is, you know, blowing up and blowing

1164
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:45,960
Speaker 1: up and is implanted in us from the moment we're born.

1165
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 1: More three year old children in this country know what

1166
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:51,439
Speaker 1: the McDonald's M means and know their own last name.

1167
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 1: More people, yeah, more people in the world recognize the

1168
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:57,440
Speaker 1: McDonald's M as a symbol of McDonald's than recognize the

1169
00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 1: cross as a symbol of Christianity. Right, So this is

1170
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:03,359
Speaker 1: really deep at out of consciousness. So you've got that

1171
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:05,439
Speaker 1: huge explosion in fast food, which is growing and growing

1172
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 1: and growing, and you've got huge numbers of people who

1173
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:10,720
Speaker 1: want to take these drugs. Now, one of those trends

1174
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:13,440
Speaker 1: is going to win, right, So as more and more

1175
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 1: people take the drugs, we're already seeing effects. And I think,

1176
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:18,440
Speaker 1: in a way, the best some of the best predictors

1177
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:21,240
Speaker 1: are the financial markets. Jeffrey's Financial just a big report

1178
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:24,279
Speaker 1: for the US airlines saying you're going to have to

1179
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:26,319
Speaker 1: spend a lot less money on jet fuel pretty soon

1180
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:30,759
Speaker 1: because a lighter population takes less jet fuel to fly.

1181
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:34,680
Speaker 1: There's even just like crazy little things, there's been a

1182
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:38,280
Speaker 1: huge run on duelers in Los Angeles because people's fingers

1183
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:41,280
Speaker 1: have shrunk so much that they need their wedding bands refitted.

1184
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 1: Or think about you mentioned the hip and knee replacements.

1185
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 1: Companies that manufacture knee hip replacements, the joints for them,

1186
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 1: their stock is going down because the main driver of

1187
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:52,279
Speaker 1: ne and hip replacements is obesity. And if there's a

1188
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 1: lot less obesity, there's going to be a lot fewer

1189
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:57,040
Speaker 1: knee and hip replacement operations. So I do think we're

1190
00:56:57,239 --> 00:57:00,279
Speaker 1: we're You're right. The trend you're seeing, which is the

1191
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 1: growth of fast food, which any more and more, I mean,

1192
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:03,800
Speaker 1: thank god, when I was a child. You couldn't just

1193
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 1: push a button on a device and they bring that

1194
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 1: good olds to you, right yet to actually leave your

1195
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:10,799
Speaker 1: house at least I imagine however, I would have become

1196
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:13,360
Speaker 1: of that have been the case. That trend is driving

1197
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:15,439
Speaker 1: the other trend as well, right, so that they're they're

1198
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 1: densely interconnected.

1199
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:19,200
Speaker 2: It's also a big question comes out as and like

1200
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 2: you kept saying, like you keep saying, we don't know enough.

1201
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:25,200
Speaker 2: And I want to talk about the risks now, because

1202
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:27,440
Speaker 2: we've talked about somewhat of how we've got here, the

1203
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 2: challenges that we're facing mentally, psychologically, societally, into why we're

1204
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 2: in this situation in the first place. But what's fascinating

1205
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:43,000
Speaker 2: to me is are a lot of the twelve Big

1206
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 2: twelve which I want to dive into. The big twelve

1207
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 2: risks and the issues with the drugs are a lot

1208
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:51,800
Speaker 2: of them more long term than short term, and based

1209
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:55,000
Speaker 2: on your own personal experience, are the short term ones

1210
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 2: tolerable and the long term ones the ones that we

1211
00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 2: would consider intolerable and complicated.

1212
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:02,680
Speaker 1: So I would distinguish between the well known side effects

1213
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:04,920
Speaker 1: and these twelve big risks. So the things like nausea.

1214
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 1: Almost everyone who takes these drugs feels nauseous at first

1215
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:11,040
Speaker 1: throughout the day, no, different people have different experiences, so

1216
00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:13,800
Speaker 1: some people have horrible experiences. Interview someone called Sunny Newton

1217
00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:17,000
Speaker 1: and Beamont who you know. She had like she said,

1218
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:18,920
Speaker 1: it was like there was an alien living inside her

1219
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:20,800
Speaker 1: and it was like thrashing about and she just wanted

1220
00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:24,720
Speaker 1: to vomit the whole time. That's rare but not unheard of.

1221
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 1: I mean, in the clinical trialst about five percent of

1222
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,040
Speaker 1: people did just stop because the nausea was so bad.

1223
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:34,840
Speaker 1: For me, it was like it was mild. It was

1224
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:36,200
Speaker 1: like when I would get on the bus or something,

1225
00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 1: I would get a little bit of exaggerated travel sickness.

1226
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 1: But like if I'd got that feeling just randomly on

1227
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:43,720
Speaker 1: a normal day, it wouldn't have stopped me going about

1228
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:45,600
Speaker 1: my day. It just would have been a bit unpleasant.

1229
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:49,080
Speaker 1: And after a few months you generally you get it

1230
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:50,800
Speaker 1: worse the day you take it or the day after,

1231
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:52,560
Speaker 1: and then you're okay for the rest of the week,

1232
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:54,800
Speaker 1: and then again you ject yourself and it gets.

1233
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 2: And the regularity of injecting yourself. Is it the same

1234
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:02,320
Speaker 2: for everyone, or can you accelerate the dose. Is there

1235
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:03,240
Speaker 2: a slower version?

1236
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I should just say because a lot of people

1237
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:08,120
Speaker 1: get horrified by injection, and I am a complete worse.

1238
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:09,520
Speaker 1: I'm the kind of person who when you give me

1239
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:10,680
Speaker 1: a blood test, I like.

1240
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 2: I don't want to look at it.

1241
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:14,360
Speaker 1: I literally look away, and you know, do Katie Perry

1242
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:17,960
Speaker 1: songs to pretend it's not happening. But and my singing

1243
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:21,400
Speaker 1: is not pleasant. But this is an EpiPen. It's the

1244
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:23,439
Speaker 1: tiny and I wish someone had told me at the start.

1245
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:25,480
Speaker 1: I didn't know this at first. You can inject yourself

1246
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:27,360
Speaker 1: in the leg or the stomach, and for some reason

1247
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:29,360
Speaker 1: they do injecting in your stomach seems to be so horrifying.

1248
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:31,080
Speaker 1: For the first month I was injecting my stomach, it's

1249
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:33,440
Speaker 1: like ah, And actually the leg is just the same. No,

1250
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:36,880
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's literally like the tiniest scratch. It's

1251
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:39,640
Speaker 1: like a mosquito bite. That are their different doses in

1252
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:44,160
Speaker 1: Everyone starts at zero point two. Five milligrams is to

1253
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 1: get you used to the nausea, and the effect is

1254
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:48,360
Speaker 1: quite mild, and most people go up and up and up,

1255
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:52,439
Speaker 1: so generally you go up to one milligram you can

1256
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:54,120
Speaker 1: go as high as two point four milligrams. It would

1257
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:56,720
Speaker 1: depend on your level of obesity. I think a lot

1258
00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:58,160
Speaker 1: of people are on two higher dose.

1259
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:00,480
Speaker 2: And who's advising you on there does?

1260
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:03,720
Speaker 1: I mean the official guidance from Nova, Naudousk and Eli Lily,

1261
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:05,800
Speaker 1: the companies that own it is you know, build up

1262
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:07,320
Speaker 1: to one milligrammar and then you can go higher if

1263
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:08,400
Speaker 1: you need greater effects.

1264
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:11,840
Speaker 2: But because you're self medicing, we're not self medicating.

1265
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:13,800
Speaker 1: I mean, part of the problem is people are buying

1266
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:15,720
Speaker 1: you online right, not actually getting it from a doctor.

1267
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:18,280
Speaker 1: And that's a really big problem that particularly relates to

1268
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:23,480
Speaker 1: probably my single biggest worry about these drugs. There's a lot,

1269
01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:27,640
Speaker 1: but the thing I'm most concerned about, not for myself

1270
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:31,840
Speaker 1: but for the society is eating disorders. We went into

1271
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:34,920
Speaker 1: the pandemic with an unprecedentedly high level of eating disorders,

1272
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:36,960
Speaker 1: probably because of social media and what it's doing to

1273
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:39,400
Speaker 1: young girls. You're interviewing my friend Jonathan Hight. He can

1274
01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:41,280
Speaker 1: tell you much more about that, and everyone should read

1275
01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:44,920
Speaker 1: his brilliant, amazing work. Then during the pandemic he just

1276
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:47,080
Speaker 1: sort of went up even further, which is mind blowing.

1277
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:50,120
Speaker 1: And what these drugs do is they give you an

1278
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:54,160
Speaker 1: unprecedented tool to amputate your appetite. Right, And anyone who

1279
01:00:54,200 --> 01:00:56,160
Speaker 1: knows anyone who's got eating disorders, imagine, I'm sure you do.

1280
01:00:56,240 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 1: Pretty much everyone does. They're in a conflict. There's the

1281
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:03,160
Speaker 1: psychological part of them that wants to starve themselves for

1282
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:08,440
Speaker 1: complex reasons created by the sick culture we have mostly

1283
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:11,720
Speaker 1: and then there's the biological part of them that wants

1284
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:14,000
Speaker 1: to live and wants to eat. And what these drugs

1285
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:15,560
Speaker 1: do is they, you know, if you take them and

1286
01:01:15,560 --> 01:01:18,280
Speaker 1: you're in that position, they massively empower the part of

1287
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:21,120
Speaker 1: you that wants to starve yourself. So I am and

1288
01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:23,080
Speaker 1: people like doctor Kimberly Dennis, who's one of the leading

1289
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:25,560
Speaker 1: eating disorders experts in Britain, another person you should interview,

1290
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:29,880
Speaker 1: a very wise and brilliant person, are really worried about this.

1291
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:33,160
Speaker 1: My biggest fear is that we could have an opioid

1292
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:37,360
Speaker 1: like death toll of huge numbers of young girls. And unfortunately,

1293
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:39,280
Speaker 1: these disorders do mostly affect young girls, or there are

1294
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:43,479
Speaker 1: of course some young men and boys. I mean, I'm

1295
01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:45,840
Speaker 1: really really worried about that. Now there are things we

1296
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 1: could do right, now, as Dr Dennis says, we need

1297
01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:51,960
Speaker 1: to I got them on zoom, you know when I

1298
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:54,240
Speaker 1: got them in Britain, initially in Vegas had to go

1299
01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:57,000
Speaker 1: in person. They're meant to check you'll BMI on zoom.

1300
01:01:57,040 --> 01:02:00,720
Speaker 1: I mean, good luck with that. Yeah, Basically, you are

1301
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:03,640
Speaker 1: very visibly not eligible for these drugs, right, You clearly

1302
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:06,280
Speaker 1: have a BMI lower than twenty seven, and yet I

1303
01:02:06,320 --> 01:02:10,080
Speaker 1: have no doubt you could go on zoom. Literally, your

1304
01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:12,440
Speaker 1: lovely team here could arrange in half an hour we

1305
01:02:12,560 --> 01:02:14,520
Speaker 1: get a Zoom call and you would get it delivered

1306
01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:17,280
Speaker 1: in the you know, biked over to you today. Right.

1307
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:20,160
Speaker 1: We need to stop that, As Dr Dennis says, we

1308
01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:23,920
Speaker 1: should only have in person prescription, and the in person

1309
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:26,440
Speaker 1: prescription should be done by doctors who are given clear

1310
01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:29,120
Speaker 1: guidance about how to spot eating disorders and how to

1311
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:31,800
Speaker 1: prevent the prescription of these things to eat disorders. It's

1312
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:33,400
Speaker 1: not perfect. People might still buy it online, but it

1313
01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:37,760
Speaker 1: would put at least some barrier between these drugs and

1314
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:40,320
Speaker 1: people who should not be getting them. At the moment,

1315
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:41,840
Speaker 1: there is basically no barrier.

1316
01:02:42,720 --> 01:02:43,880
Speaker 2: Is that one of the big risks?

1317
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:46,280
Speaker 1: Yeah? Massive? I mean if you said to me, what

1318
01:02:46,280 --> 01:02:48,600
Speaker 1: are the risks that most that's the risk that most

1319
01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:51,640
Speaker 1: worries me for the society. The one that most worries

1320
01:02:51,680 --> 01:03:01,560
Speaker 1: me for myself is quite different. So put it weird,

1321
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:03,040
Speaker 1: I feel a way of anxiety. As I said it,

1322
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:06,200
Speaker 1: We don't know the long term effects of these drugs

1323
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:09,640
Speaker 1: at all. No one knows. We know they're chronically activating

1324
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:13,480
Speaker 1: key parts of your brain. So a brilliant expert called

1325
01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:16,600
Speaker 1: Dr Greg Stanward, who works on these drugs at Florida

1326
01:03:16,680 --> 01:03:19,240
Speaker 1: State University, said to me, Now he's stressed to me,

1327
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:24,160
Speaker 1: he's broadly in favor of these drugs. He's considering taking

1328
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:27,160
Speaker 1: them himself, but as a responsible scientist, he has to

1329
01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:29,920
Speaker 1: warn people. So he gave an analogy. I want to

1330
01:03:29,920 --> 01:03:32,160
Speaker 1: be clear, he's not suggesting these drugs will have this effect,

1331
01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:33,840
Speaker 1: but it's an analogy that helps us to think about it.

1332
01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:35,720
Speaker 1: If you look at antipsychotic drugs, if you go back

1333
01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:37,000
Speaker 1: to when they were first given to people in the

1334
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:41,600
Speaker 1: late nineteen fifties, at the time, doctors judged that the

1335
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:43,760
Speaker 1: benefits outweighed the risk. It's always been controversial, but they

1336
01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:48,440
Speaker 1: judge that. So loads of people will give an antipsychotics

1337
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:50,800
Speaker 1: for really long periods of time, and it was only

1338
01:03:50,880 --> 01:03:54,800
Speaker 1: what forty to fifty years later that they discovered if

1339
01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:57,600
Speaker 1: you take these drugs for decade after decade, you are

1340
01:03:57,720 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 1: much more likely to get dementia or some In fact,

1341
01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:02,920
Speaker 1: all forms of dementia are much more likely. It's not

1342
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:04,960
Speaker 1: that the doctors were being negligent in the nineteen fifties.

1343
01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:07,840
Speaker 1: You couldn't know that, right. You had to have people

1344
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:09,480
Speaker 1: take it for a really long time to know that.

1345
01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:14,480
Speaker 1: What could these drugs do over the long term, We

1346
01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 1: don't know right now. Against that, Dr Shaan O. Levy,

1347
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:23,600
Speaker 1: a brilliant obesity specialist at at Tulane University School of

1348
01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:27,440
Speaker 1: Medicine in New Orleans, said to me, well, look, we

1349
01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:29,280
Speaker 1: don't know the long term effects of these drugs. We

1350
01:04:29,360 --> 01:04:31,280
Speaker 1: do know the long term effects of obesity, and they

1351
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:35,560
Speaker 1: are very serious. But you know, I'm forty five, right

1352
01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:39,360
Speaker 1: If you stop taking the drugs, for almost everyone they stopped,

1353
01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:41,040
Speaker 1: you just go back to where you were before. And

1354
01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:42,600
Speaker 1: there's a big debate about that, but for most people

1355
01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:46,040
Speaker 1: that seems to be happening. So I'm assuming I'm going

1356
01:04:46,080 --> 01:04:50,840
Speaker 1: to be taking these drugs for forty years. That's anxiety provoking.

1357
01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:53,600
Speaker 1: I asked Dr Clements Blue, who's one of the leading

1358
01:04:53,600 --> 01:04:57,360
Speaker 1: obesity specialists at Cambridge University, So, what brain areas do

1359
01:04:57,440 --> 01:04:59,600
Speaker 1: these drugs activate? And she taught me through it at

1360
01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:01,760
Speaker 1: the he and so on. I said, well, what else

1361
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:03,640
Speaker 1: do those areas of the brain do? She said, oh,

1362
01:05:03,680 --> 01:05:08,040
Speaker 1: were they memory? Processing, taste processing, got motility like not

1363
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:10,800
Speaker 1: this is me speaking now, but not trivial things, right,

1364
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:13,920
Speaker 1: So for me that was of the twelve, that was

1365
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:19,600
Speaker 1: the one where I thought shit. So I'm trying to

1366
01:05:19,640 --> 01:05:22,400
Speaker 1: a more eloquent way to say shit, but that was yeah, yeah.

1367
01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:24,480
Speaker 2: Once the debate you were saying there about the idea

1368
01:05:24,520 --> 01:05:26,280
Speaker 2: of if you stop taking these drugs, you'll go back

1369
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:28,160
Speaker 2: to the same way you were. What's them?

1370
01:05:28,320 --> 01:05:30,280
Speaker 1: So we don't have that much research on it. What

1371
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:33,960
Speaker 1: the drug companies say is these drugs are like statins.

1372
01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:37,479
Speaker 1: Are you take statins lowest your cholesterol. If you stop

1373
01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:39,880
Speaker 1: taking statins, your cholesterol goes back to what it was.

1374
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:42,760
Speaker 1: The drugs are not a cure. There are treatment and

1375
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:45,760
Speaker 1: ongoing treatment, right, So they say these drugs are like that.

1376
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:48,240
Speaker 1: Now they have a vested interest in saying that. They

1377
01:05:48,240 --> 01:05:49,720
Speaker 1: want you to carry on buying the drugs forever. It

1378
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:51,960
Speaker 1: would not be good news for them if they discovered

1379
01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:54,240
Speaker 1: that actually you can take the drugs for a short

1380
01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:56,800
Speaker 1: time stop and then you'd stay at the lower way

1381
01:05:57,440 --> 01:05:59,840
Speaker 1: some people. This is anecdotal because we don't have any

1382
01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:01,880
Speaker 1: research on it yet. Other people are studying it, so

1383
01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:04,960
Speaker 1: we'll know in a while. Like I give an example,

1384
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:09,160
Speaker 1: someone I know, Tukman Jarro, lost loads of weight, interrupted

1385
01:06:09,160 --> 01:06:11,640
Speaker 1: their relationship with junk food, started exercising a lot in

1386
01:06:11,640 --> 01:06:13,080
Speaker 1: a way they felt too embarrassed to do when they

1387
01:06:13,080 --> 01:06:16,200
Speaker 1: were obese, and has now stopped and seems to be

1388
01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:21,280
Speaker 1: maintaining that lower weight. So how many people will there

1389
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:23,880
Speaker 1: be like that? We don't know. I mean, the early

1390
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:25,600
Speaker 1: studies we have we're just looking at if you take

1391
01:06:25,640 --> 01:06:28,840
Speaker 1: it and then stop. But what about motivated people who

1392
01:06:28,920 --> 01:06:31,600
Speaker 1: change use it as a tool to promote change. We

1393
01:06:31,720 --> 01:06:32,160
Speaker 1: just don't know.

1394
01:06:32,280 --> 01:06:33,880
Speaker 2: How long will it How long does it take to

1395
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:36,520
Speaker 2: measure for us to realize how long do you need

1396
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:38,600
Speaker 2: to be on it for to have those long term

1397
01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:41,920
Speaker 2: implications like how long will we have to study research

1398
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:42,360
Speaker 2: and measure.

1399
01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:46,200
Speaker 1: I mean when you talk about the medium term effects

1400
01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:48,360
Speaker 1: and it get it's important to be balanced about this

1401
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:51,680
Speaker 1: because it's a complicated truth. So a lot of people,

1402
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:53,800
Speaker 1: a lot of the experts will say, and there's a

1403
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:56,240
Speaker 1: really good scientist, and that's a good point. Actually, we

1404
01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:58,600
Speaker 1: know loads about the medium term effects of these drugs

1405
01:06:58,600 --> 01:07:02,200
Speaker 1: because diabetics have been taking them for eighteen nearly nineteen years, right,

1406
01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:06,120
Speaker 1: So for people who don't know, these drugs, in addition

1407
01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:08,320
Speaker 1: to having this effect on your appetite, also stimulate the

1408
01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:12,200
Speaker 1: creation of insulin, which is what diabetics, by type one

1409
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:14,920
Speaker 1: anti two diabetics are lacking. It's why it's a diabetes treatment.

1410
01:07:16,160 --> 01:07:18,720
Speaker 1: And so actually we've got eighteen years of data on diabetics,

1411
01:07:18,720 --> 01:07:21,000
Speaker 1: so I mean, I'm putting it more crudely than they would.

1412
01:07:21,040 --> 01:07:23,840
Speaker 1: But if the drugs made you grow horns, the diabetics

1413
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:26,640
Speaker 1: would have grown horns by now, right. And that's a

1414
01:07:26,640 --> 01:07:28,600
Speaker 1: good and important point, and it should give people some

1415
01:07:28,640 --> 01:07:33,160
Speaker 1: degree of security that some other people say, some other

1416
01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:39,160
Speaker 1: leading experts say, well, hang on, if we're going to

1417
01:07:39,200 --> 01:07:40,920
Speaker 1: base a lot of our confidence on these drugs on

1418
01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:43,520
Speaker 1: the diabetics, let's dig a bit deeper into the diabetics.

1419
01:07:43,720 --> 01:07:45,920
Speaker 1: So give an example. There's a brilliant scientist call Professor

1420
01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:49,120
Speaker 1: Jean luc Faye, who's at the University Hospital in Montpellier

1421
01:07:49,200 --> 01:07:52,120
Speaker 1: in France, and he was commissioned by the French Medicines

1422
01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:54,360
Speaker 1: Agency to look at the safety of these drugs for

1423
01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:57,600
Speaker 1: the French market. As we started looking at what's called

1424
01:07:57,640 --> 01:08:01,840
Speaker 1: the preclinical research, which is on animals, and something really

1425
01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:04,680
Speaker 1: took him aback, which is, if you give these drugs

1426
01:08:04,680 --> 01:08:07,280
Speaker 1: to rats, they're much more likely to get thyroid cancer.

1427
01:08:07,600 --> 01:08:10,000
Speaker 1: And it's like, huh, okay, let's do some digging. So

1428
01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:12,040
Speaker 1: what he did is they have very very good medical

1429
01:08:12,120 --> 01:08:16,640
Speaker 1: databases in France. He compared a large number of diabetics

1430
01:08:17,120 --> 01:08:19,599
Speaker 1: who'd been taking these drugs between I think twenty six

1431
01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:22,800
Speaker 1: and twenty twelve with a large number of diabetics who

1432
01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:25,080
Speaker 1: were similar in every other way but hadn't taken these drugs.

1433
01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:29,559
Speaker 1: And what he calculated with his colleagues was, if he's right,

1434
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:34,040
Speaker 1: and it's highly contested, these drugs increase your thyroid cancer

1435
01:08:34,160 --> 01:08:36,720
Speaker 1: risk by between fifty to seventy five percent. And he

1436
01:08:36,720 --> 01:08:38,439
Speaker 1: said to it, we've got to understand what it doesn't mean.

1437
01:08:38,880 --> 01:08:41,200
Speaker 1: Doesn't mean if you take the drugs you have a

1438
01:08:41,240 --> 01:08:43,400
Speaker 1: fifty to seventy five percent chance of getting thyrocncer. If

1439
01:08:43,439 --> 01:08:46,000
Speaker 1: that was the case, we'd be having bonfires of ozenpic

1440
01:08:46,040 --> 01:08:48,840
Speaker 1: all over the world. What it means is, if he's right,

1441
01:08:49,400 --> 01:08:52,840
Speaker 1: whatever your thyroid cancer risk was at the start, these

1442
01:08:52,920 --> 01:08:56,479
Speaker 1: drugs increase it by fifty to seventy five percent. Now,

1443
01:08:57,920 --> 01:09:00,680
Speaker 1: thyro cancer is an overall low risk. One point two

1444
01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:02,559
Speaker 1: percent of people get it in their lives, eighty two

1445
01:09:02,560 --> 01:09:04,960
Speaker 1: percent of them survive, so it's a relative, but it's

1446
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:07,800
Speaker 1: a big increase in a small risk, right, And I'm

1447
01:09:07,880 --> 01:09:12,200
Speaker 1: very conscious a that you got to weigh that against

1448
01:09:12,200 --> 01:09:13,800
Speaker 1: just the cancer risk of continue to be abast But

1449
01:09:13,840 --> 01:09:16,280
Speaker 1: also one of the things that really worries me about

1450
01:09:16,280 --> 01:09:19,800
Speaker 1: that is, so you think about the history of diet drugs,

1451
01:09:20,479 --> 01:09:24,920
Speaker 1: very often they began to unravel based on small warnings.

1452
01:09:25,439 --> 01:09:26,639
Speaker 1: So if you think about it, there was a diet

1453
01:09:26,720 --> 01:09:29,160
Speaker 1: drug in the nineties called fenfen, the most popular diet

1454
01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:31,880
Speaker 1: drug ever before a zenpic. So if you look at

1455
01:09:31,880 --> 01:09:33,479
Speaker 1: how it was a combination of two drugs. It was

1456
01:09:33,520 --> 01:09:37,760
Speaker 1: an appetite suppressant called flex fluoramine and an a fetamine

1457
01:09:37,760 --> 01:09:41,000
Speaker 1: called fentromine, and it really worked. People who took it

1458
01:09:41,040 --> 01:09:42,479
Speaker 1: got the same level of weight loss as people get

1459
01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:44,840
Speaker 1: on a zenpic and people talked about it in a

1460
01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:49,320
Speaker 1: very similar way. Front page of Time magazine was the

1461
01:09:49,400 --> 01:09:54,320
Speaker 1: new miracle weight loss drug, right, very similar. In nineteen

1462
01:09:54,400 --> 01:09:57,599
Speaker 1: ninety five, there were eighteen million Fenfen prescriptions in this country.

1463
01:09:57,640 --> 01:10:02,960
Speaker 1: It was huge. It was discovered a small group of

1464
01:10:02,960 --> 01:10:09,200
Speaker 1: doctors in a practice in Fargo in North Dakota noticed, huh,

1465
01:10:10,120 --> 01:10:13,120
Speaker 1: a lot of people using this drug in our practice

1466
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:17,320
Speaker 1: seemed to be having trouble breathing. Wow, And so they

1467
01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:20,560
Speaker 1: raised what's called a safety signal. It was then investigated.

1468
01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:24,160
Speaker 1: It turned out these drugs caused in a lot of

1469
01:10:24,200 --> 01:10:27,559
Speaker 1: people something called primary pulmonary hypertension, a horrific condition where

1470
01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:30,320
Speaker 1: the blood vessels and your lungs contracted and you can't breathe.

1471
01:10:30,320 --> 01:10:32,559
Speaker 1: It it kills you. It can kill you. If not,

1472
01:10:32,600 --> 01:10:35,120
Speaker 1: you're an oxygen the rest of your life. It's horrendous.

1473
01:10:35,720 --> 01:10:38,960
Speaker 1: So it obviously got withdrawn from the market, led to

1474
01:10:38,960 --> 01:10:42,200
Speaker 1: the biggest pay out in the history of the pharmaceutical

1475
01:10:42,240 --> 01:10:44,559
Speaker 1: industry twelve be and it does actually emerge the drug

1476
01:10:44,600 --> 01:10:47,720
Speaker 1: companies had known about this risk all along. You look

1477
01:10:47,720 --> 01:10:50,040
Speaker 1: at the stuff the drug companies, you know. One of

1478
01:10:50,080 --> 01:10:52,040
Speaker 1: the one of the documents that was presented at the

1479
01:10:52,040 --> 01:10:56,599
Speaker 1: civil case was just someone saying one of the people

1480
01:10:56,600 --> 01:10:58,200
Speaker 1: at the drug company saying, oh am, I going to

1481
01:10:58,240 --> 01:11:02,080
Speaker 1: have to spend my retirement writing check compensation checks for silly,

1482
01:11:02,080 --> 01:11:05,360
Speaker 1: fat women with lung brew can't breathe. I mean horrendous.

1483
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:10,639
Speaker 1: Right now, I want to stress Eli Lilly and Novo Nordous.

1484
01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:12,479
Speaker 1: I'm very happy to criticize drug companies. I do it

1485
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:15,080
Speaker 1: a lot. But they are not shysters like those people were.

1486
01:11:15,160 --> 01:11:18,240
Speaker 1: They are reputable drug companies. There's no reason to believe

1487
01:11:18,280 --> 01:11:21,759
Speaker 1: that they're like that. But I'm conscious that small things

1488
01:11:21,840 --> 01:11:24,880
Speaker 1: could lead to the whole thing unraveling. We need to

1489
01:11:24,920 --> 01:11:29,120
Speaker 1: be vigilant. I'm alert to that. It's why if you

1490
01:11:29,120 --> 01:11:32,000
Speaker 1: have thyroid cancer in your family, I mean, I'm gonna

1491
01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:33,639
Speaker 1: say I recommend it. Don't really matter why I recommend.

1492
01:11:33,680 --> 01:11:36,720
Speaker 1: The FDA recommends don't take the drugs. It's not a

1493
01:11:36,720 --> 01:11:37,280
Speaker 1: good idea.

1494
01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:39,960
Speaker 2: Are there any others in that line, any oh?

1495
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:42,559
Speaker 1: Loads? I mean yeah, I mean I would there's all

1496
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:45,720
Speaker 1: sorts of things, all sorts of categories of people. I

1497
01:11:45,720 --> 01:11:48,760
Speaker 1: would say, shouldn't take it. If your BMI is lower

1498
01:11:48,800 --> 01:11:51,400
Speaker 1: than twenty seven, don't take it. You're incurring all the

1499
01:11:51,479 --> 01:11:53,880
Speaker 1: risks for none of the benefits. If you have thyroid

1500
01:11:53,920 --> 01:11:56,679
Speaker 1: cancer in your family, if you're a history of eating disorders.

1501
01:11:57,439 --> 01:11:59,439
Speaker 1: There's a whole array of people who should not be

1502
01:11:59,479 --> 01:12:02,160
Speaker 1: taking it, who currently are take it. Another big one,

1503
01:12:02,160 --> 01:12:04,519
Speaker 1: which obviously doesn't apply to me, is if you think

1504
01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:07,080
Speaker 1: you might get pregnant. So one of the things that

1505
01:12:07,120 --> 01:12:11,960
Speaker 1: really worries me is we have really no data on

1506
01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:15,519
Speaker 1: what it does to people are pregnant. Obviously you're told

1507
01:12:15,520 --> 01:12:17,240
Speaker 1: to not take it if you think you might get pregnant,

1508
01:12:17,240 --> 01:12:20,640
Speaker 1: but people get pregnant and all sorts of ways that

1509
01:12:20,640 --> 01:12:25,320
Speaker 1: you don't expect. So we know rats when they're given

1510
01:12:25,560 --> 01:12:28,840
Speaker 1: some agualatide the active component. I'm much more like to

1511
01:12:28,840 --> 01:12:32,839
Speaker 1: have children with birth deformities fetuses with birth deformities. Dr Stamward,

1512
01:12:32,840 --> 01:12:35,479
Speaker 1: who I mentioned before a Florida State said to me

1513
01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:39,960
Speaker 1: again stressed he's broadly confident, but has to alert people

1514
01:12:39,960 --> 01:12:45,560
Speaker 1: to potential concerns because he's a very responsible scientist. He said,

1515
01:12:46,080 --> 01:12:48,240
Speaker 1: to think about this, you might want to look at

1516
01:12:50,280 --> 01:12:52,720
Speaker 1: the long term research on mothers who are exposed to

1517
01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:55,880
Speaker 1: contaminants when they're pregnant. So think about, for example, mothers

1518
01:12:55,920 --> 01:13:00,040
Speaker 1: who are exposed to lead. This happens scandalously frequently in

1519
01:13:00,080 --> 01:13:02,439
Speaker 1: this country because a lot of poor people still live

1520
01:13:02,439 --> 01:13:05,240
Speaker 1: in housing that still has a lending it and still

1521
01:13:05,240 --> 01:13:07,280
Speaker 1: get water from We know about Flint, Michigan, but actually

1522
01:13:07,360 --> 01:13:10,280
Speaker 1: lots of places get water from pipes that are made

1523
01:13:10,280 --> 01:13:12,360
Speaker 1: of lead. It's insane that in the richest country in

1524
01:13:12,360 --> 01:13:14,759
Speaker 1: the world we allow that the poisoning of children. But anyway,

1525
01:13:15,280 --> 01:13:17,000
Speaker 1: if you look at the if you look at mothers

1526
01:13:17,040 --> 01:13:19,280
Speaker 1: who are pregnant and get exposed to lead during pregnancy,

1527
01:13:19,760 --> 01:13:21,800
Speaker 1: actually their babies look like all the other babies. There's

1528
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:24,880
Speaker 1: no it seems like there's no difference. But when those

1529
01:13:24,960 --> 01:13:27,040
Speaker 1: kids get to be twelve thirteen, we know that they

1530
01:13:27,040 --> 01:13:30,080
Speaker 1: have less impulse control, they're more likely to have attention problems.

1531
01:13:30,120 --> 01:13:32,880
Speaker 1: So it seems to have affected their developmental trajectory, even

1532
01:13:32,920 --> 01:13:36,080
Speaker 1: though that wasn't immediately obvious at first. Could that happen

1533
01:13:36,120 --> 01:13:38,320
Speaker 1: with these drugs, Yes, I mean it might not in

1534
01:13:38,360 --> 01:13:40,760
Speaker 1: might effect their trajectory in a positive way. We don't know.

1535
01:13:41,000 --> 01:13:42,640
Speaker 1: Maybe they'd be less likely to become obesie kind of

1536
01:13:42,680 --> 01:13:45,400
Speaker 1: a protective effect on that. But it's just disturbing when

1537
01:13:45,439 --> 01:13:48,040
Speaker 1: you when you look it's a really weird feeling to

1538
01:13:48,120 --> 01:13:50,160
Speaker 1: go all around the world into feel these leading experts,

1539
01:13:50,160 --> 01:13:53,840
Speaker 1: sit with them and to realize, oh, this is an

1540
01:13:53,880 --> 01:13:56,320
Speaker 1: experiment on millions of people, and I'm one of the

1541
01:13:56,320 --> 01:14:00,040
Speaker 1: guinea pigs. Shit right, it's a weird feeling, right, and

1542
01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:01,720
Speaker 1: it makes me angry that we've been put in the

1543
01:14:01,760 --> 01:14:04,760
Speaker 1: position where we have to make these choices. Like I say,

1544
01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:06,679
Speaker 1: there are countries that don't have to make these choices

1545
01:14:06,720 --> 01:14:09,040
Speaker 1: because they didn't allow their population to be put up

1546
01:14:09,280 --> 01:14:11,599
Speaker 1: with process and ultra process food in the first place.

1547
01:14:12,160 --> 01:14:15,679
Speaker 1: And that pissed me off.

1548
01:14:17,280 --> 01:14:19,760
Speaker 2: What has been the most horrific a Zempi stories so far?

1549
01:14:20,479 --> 01:14:22,840
Speaker 1: It's terrific aszempic story by I interview people had gone

1550
01:14:22,840 --> 01:14:26,160
Speaker 1: through rough experiences. I want to stress this is very rare,

1551
01:14:26,560 --> 01:14:30,920
Speaker 1: but there's a condition called pancreatitis which is excruciatingly painful.

1552
01:14:30,920 --> 01:14:33,800
Speaker 1: It's basically where your pancreast doesn't work properly. Doctors compare

1553
01:14:33,840 --> 01:14:37,040
Speaker 1: the pain of pancreatitis to being stabbed, and it makes

1554
01:14:37,040 --> 01:14:39,320
Speaker 1: you nine times more likely to get pancreatitis these when

1555
01:14:39,360 --> 01:14:41,920
Speaker 1: you take these drugs. So paratise is very rare, but

1556
01:14:41,960 --> 01:14:44,120
Speaker 1: it's obviously a huge increase in this very rare thing.

1557
01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:47,680
Speaker 1: I interviewed a woman called Michelle Sterziak, who lives in

1558
01:14:47,720 --> 01:14:50,080
Speaker 1: Myrtle Beach in South Carolina, which is a place I

1559
01:14:50,080 --> 01:14:52,200
Speaker 1: only thought existed in country songs until I interviewed her.

1560
01:14:52,520 --> 01:14:55,600
Speaker 1: And Michelle said to me, you know, she went for

1561
01:14:55,640 --> 01:14:57,840
Speaker 1: a zmpic for weight loss. The doctor said, oh, this

1562
01:14:57,920 --> 01:15:00,040
Speaker 1: is rare side effects, one of those pancreatitis. She said, no,

1563
01:15:00,240 --> 01:15:02,479
Speaker 1: my life, I'll probably get it. She started taking it,

1564
01:15:02,479 --> 01:15:04,320
Speaker 1: lost loads away. Six weeks later, she went to visit

1565
01:15:04,320 --> 01:15:08,880
Speaker 1: a daughter in Pittsburgh and she woke up, she said,

1566
01:15:08,880 --> 01:15:11,120
Speaker 1: in the most excruciating angony she'd ever been in. She

1567
01:15:11,160 --> 01:15:13,400
Speaker 1: felt like she like she was being stabbed all over

1568
01:15:13,439 --> 01:15:16,800
Speaker 1: her body, and she was rushed to hospital and they

1569
01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:18,280
Speaker 1: hadn't know if I pancreatics. In the first thing they

1570
01:15:18,280 --> 01:15:20,040
Speaker 1: said was are you an alcoholic? She said no. Then

1571
01:15:20,040 --> 01:15:22,599
Speaker 1: they said are you taking her zempic? She was like yes,

1572
01:15:24,040 --> 01:15:26,519
Speaker 1: So that was probably the person. Michelle said to me,

1573
01:15:27,439 --> 01:15:29,880
Speaker 1: you know I've had children. It was much worse than

1574
01:15:29,880 --> 01:15:32,760
Speaker 1: the pain of childbirth, right so, which thank god you

1575
01:15:32,800 --> 01:15:35,599
Speaker 1: and I will never have to go through. But unless

1576
01:15:35,600 --> 01:15:39,479
Speaker 1: you've got something you want to announce, Jay, But there's

1577
01:15:39,520 --> 01:15:41,920
Speaker 1: some real horror stories, and most people are not having

1578
01:15:42,000 --> 01:15:45,400
Speaker 1: these horror stories. Most people are having I want to

1579
01:15:45,400 --> 01:15:49,320
Speaker 1: be responsible. Most people's experience is more like Jeff Parker

1580
01:15:49,479 --> 01:15:53,760
Speaker 1: or Oprah than it is like you know, Michelle. Yeah,

1581
01:15:54,200 --> 01:15:57,559
Speaker 1: but that's now twenty years from now, thirty years from now,

1582
01:15:57,600 --> 01:16:00,920
Speaker 1: forty years from now. We don't know what the picture

1583
01:16:00,960 --> 01:16:03,040
Speaker 1: will be, which which puts us in this difficult position.

1584
01:16:03,240 --> 01:16:06,160
Speaker 2: So we've got some questions from the team. Yeah tell

1585
01:16:06,200 --> 01:16:10,280
Speaker 2: me referred to team. This is the team. So what

1586
01:16:10,439 --> 01:16:13,240
Speaker 2: is your view on when a zempic should be used

1587
01:16:13,240 --> 01:16:14,479
Speaker 2: for kids? If at all?

1588
01:16:15,080 --> 01:16:20,080
Speaker 1: For me, the debate about a zempic for kids through

1589
01:16:20,200 --> 01:16:23,959
Speaker 1: open the whole thing for me because for so many reasons,

1590
01:16:24,320 --> 01:16:26,519
Speaker 1: Because it's when you look at kids that you realize

1591
01:16:26,520 --> 01:16:30,200
Speaker 1: how this is a crisis created by the fast feed industry, right,

1592
01:16:30,720 --> 01:16:33,400
Speaker 1: and by processed food industry, and by the fact that

1593
01:16:33,400 --> 01:16:37,759
Speaker 1: we as a society have allowed that industry to poison

1594
01:16:37,800 --> 01:16:40,559
Speaker 1: our kids. Right. Think about where we are in Brooklyn.

1595
01:16:40,680 --> 01:16:43,040
Speaker 1: Try walking around Brooklyn with a kid and them not

1596
01:16:43,120 --> 01:16:47,559
Speaker 1: seeing ads the whole time saying you don't feel good, Hey,

1597
01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:50,040
Speaker 1: stuff your face with our shit. Right. The first thing

1598
01:16:50,040 --> 01:16:52,000
Speaker 1: I want to say is this is a crisis created

1599
01:16:52,040 --> 01:16:54,080
Speaker 1: by them, and we need to stop them doing that,

1600
01:16:54,360 --> 01:16:55,880
Speaker 1: and we can do that, and I went to places

1601
01:16:55,920 --> 01:16:58,200
Speaker 1: that have done it. But given that's where we are,

1602
01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:01,719
Speaker 1: I think people are in a really tough position because

1603
01:17:01,720 --> 01:17:05,560
Speaker 1: there's so I'm very sympathetic to both sides of that debate. So,

1604
01:17:05,600 --> 01:17:08,799
Speaker 1: for example, I interviewed a really lovely woman called Deborah

1605
01:17:08,840 --> 01:17:15,599
Speaker 1: Tyler who's a nurse in Connecticut. Her daughter was very

1606
01:17:15,600 --> 01:17:21,360
Speaker 1: severely obese from when she was very young, and she

1607
01:17:21,479 --> 01:17:23,680
Speaker 1: took a daughter to the doctor when I think she

1608
01:17:23,760 --> 01:17:26,000
Speaker 1: was eight, and the doctor said she had liver problems,

1609
01:17:26,040 --> 01:17:27,439
Speaker 1: and she's like, can you imagine when you've been told

1610
01:17:27,479 --> 01:17:28,960
Speaker 1: your child is of the problems at the age of eight,

1611
01:17:30,240 --> 01:17:32,760
Speaker 1: And she faced this agonizing decision about whether to put

1612
01:17:32,760 --> 01:17:35,519
Speaker 1: her daughter on ozm PIC And in the end she

1613
01:17:35,560 --> 01:17:38,600
Speaker 1: decided to do it, and her daughter's liver problems have

1614
01:17:38,640 --> 01:17:41,920
Speaker 1: gone away. So I have a lot and she's still

1615
01:17:42,000 --> 01:17:45,040
Speaker 1: very agonized about it. All the problems are accentuated when

1616
01:17:45,040 --> 01:17:48,360
Speaker 1: it comes to children. I mean, there are benefits. Dr

1617
01:17:48,439 --> 01:17:50,479
Speaker 1: Charles you, who's one of the leading experts at Cambridge

1618
01:17:50,520 --> 01:17:53,960
Speaker 1: University on obest, explain to me if you are obese

1619
01:17:53,960 --> 01:17:57,240
Speaker 1: when you're a child. It is very hard to become unobese.

1620
01:17:57,280 --> 01:18:01,880
Speaker 1: I mean, you're unusual, right, it happens. You'll proof of that.

1621
01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:04,040
Speaker 1: There are other people approve that. Most people don't. Right.

1622
01:18:04,080 --> 01:18:08,320
Speaker 1: It's really partly because as you become obese, all sorts

1623
01:18:08,320 --> 01:18:10,880
Speaker 1: of changes happen in your brain that make it very

1624
01:18:10,920 --> 01:18:12,679
Speaker 1: hard to go back that I go through in the book.

1625
01:18:13,080 --> 01:18:15,479
Speaker 1: So there's a case for dealing with it early. Right,

1626
01:18:16,720 --> 01:18:20,920
Speaker 1: And we know childhood obesity, I mean has really devastating

1627
01:18:21,720 --> 01:18:25,000
Speaker 1: impacts on your health throughout your life and radically shortens

1628
01:18:25,000 --> 01:18:27,040
Speaker 1: your life on average. There are other people who have

1629
01:18:27,040 --> 01:18:29,320
Speaker 1: a lot of sympathy for like Professor Dan Cooper who's

1630
01:18:29,320 --> 01:18:32,639
Speaker 1: at UC Irvine, who say, well, A and I can't

1631
01:18:32,640 --> 01:18:34,400
Speaker 1: believe anyone would disagree with this. We need to deal

1632
01:18:34,479 --> 01:18:37,200
Speaker 1: with the underlying causes, but the environmental factors. But be

1633
01:18:38,320 --> 01:18:41,559
Speaker 1: children are not miniature adults, right. This could affect children

1634
01:18:41,600 --> 01:18:44,439
Speaker 1: in different ways. For example, of one of the things

1635
01:18:44,479 --> 01:18:47,920
Speaker 1: children use calories for is bone mineralization, and if you

1636
01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:50,200
Speaker 1: don't have enough calories, maybe your bones don't form it properly.

1637
01:18:50,240 --> 01:18:55,160
Speaker 1: Maybe they'll become austereoporotic as they get older, So it's

1638
01:18:55,280 --> 01:18:58,840
Speaker 1: really complicated. Novo Nordisk is currently doing a trial on

1639
01:18:58,960 --> 01:19:01,240
Speaker 1: giving these drugs to chill as young as six years old.

1640
01:19:01,600 --> 01:19:04,639
Speaker 1: It turns my stomach. It's a sign of a six

1641
01:19:04,720 --> 01:19:09,439
Speaker 1: society that we've reached this point. We need to fix

1642
01:19:09,439 --> 01:19:12,600
Speaker 1: the society. But if you're trapped in the choice that

1643
01:19:12,640 --> 01:19:16,240
Speaker 1: Debra Tayler is trapped in, honestly, I think I would

1644
01:19:16,240 --> 01:19:17,760
Speaker 1: probably do what she's done and I would feel as

1645
01:19:17,760 --> 01:19:19,040
Speaker 1: anguished as she does about it.

1646
01:19:19,800 --> 01:19:21,680
Speaker 2: So this came up with what you're just mentioning now,

1647
01:19:21,720 --> 01:19:25,120
Speaker 2: like what is your view on Oprah's ZMPIG special and

1648
01:19:25,120 --> 01:19:27,120
Speaker 2: what would the benefits and some of the challenges that

1649
01:19:27,160 --> 01:19:29,200
Speaker 2: came from it on people's perspectives.

1650
01:19:29,640 --> 01:19:32,200
Speaker 1: So I can't think just passionately about Oprah, right, Like

1651
01:19:32,400 --> 01:19:34,120
Speaker 1: I know everyone loves Oprah and a kind of oh

1652
01:19:34,120 --> 01:19:36,840
Speaker 1: we love Oprah. Oprah is what are the two or

1653
01:19:36,880 --> 01:19:38,880
Speaker 1: three humans alive for his most influenced be Like when

1654
01:19:38,920 --> 01:19:40,120
Speaker 1: I was a kid, do you remember this when your

1655
01:19:40,160 --> 01:19:42,160
Speaker 1: kids remember? It's so vividly the Oprah Show of you

1656
01:19:42,200 --> 01:19:45,280
Speaker 1: on at five pm on Channel four. Right, and no

1657
01:19:45,320 --> 01:19:47,599
Speaker 1: one in Britain when we were kids spoke like Oprah, Right,

1658
01:19:47,640 --> 01:19:49,679
Speaker 1: no one spoke about their no one spoke about their emotions,

1659
01:19:49,760 --> 01:19:52,639
Speaker 1: no one spoke about in this extraordinary and profound way

1660
01:19:52,680 --> 01:19:54,920
Speaker 1: that Oprah does. And I really think one of the

1661
01:19:54,920 --> 01:19:56,560
Speaker 1: reasons I get on well with Oprah, I think is

1662
01:19:56,600 --> 01:19:59,599
Speaker 1: because I've I've so entitalized her voice that I sort

1663
01:19:59,600 --> 01:20:02,519
Speaker 1: of I mean, clearly, as a British person, you can't

1664
01:20:02,520 --> 01:20:04,960
Speaker 1: talk like Oprah, but like, well, clearly no one can

1665
01:20:04,960 --> 01:20:07,000
Speaker 1: talk like Oprah, but you know what I mean. So

1666
01:20:07,080 --> 01:20:11,479
Speaker 1: I can't think dispassionately about it because I love her

1667
01:20:11,520 --> 01:20:14,240
Speaker 1: so much and I'm weirdly friends with her, which is

1668
01:20:14,320 --> 01:20:16,439
Speaker 1: like still to me the most surreal, whether she emails

1669
01:20:16,640 --> 01:20:18,519
Speaker 1: me or texts me. And my friend I was like,

1670
01:20:18,520 --> 01:20:23,360
Speaker 1: shut up, everyone Oprah needs us. But I thought her

1671
01:20:23,360 --> 01:20:27,240
Speaker 1: special was incredible and I cried a lot for the

1672
01:20:27,240 --> 01:20:28,920
Speaker 1: minute it started. I cried, and my friend said, thank

1673
01:20:28,960 --> 01:20:30,800
Speaker 1: God Oprah has not brought her show back, because if

1674
01:20:30,800 --> 01:20:33,040
Speaker 1: you had this emotional reaction every day, you've been a

1675
01:20:33,080 --> 01:20:35,719
Speaker 1: psychiatric hospital because of seeing op profront of an audience

1676
01:20:35,760 --> 01:20:39,920
Speaker 1: may be emotional, but I thought it was amazing, and

1677
01:20:40,920 --> 01:20:43,280
Speaker 1: I think part of it made me really sad, because

1678
01:20:43,720 --> 01:20:45,720
Speaker 1: you think about how much Oprah has given us, right,

1679
01:20:46,439 --> 01:20:48,559
Speaker 1: how much she's given to the culture, people forget, you know,

1680
01:20:50,080 --> 01:20:52,000
Speaker 1: I mean even just think about the incredible work she

1681
01:20:52,040 --> 01:20:55,200
Speaker 1: did on breaking the taboos around sexual abuse right where.

1682
01:20:55,240 --> 01:20:57,640
Speaker 1: What she's done is incredible. And I could list like

1683
01:20:57,760 --> 01:21:01,240
Speaker 1: fifteen things like that that Oprah has done transform the culture.

1684
01:21:03,600 --> 01:21:05,320
Speaker 1: And you think, all that time she was doing that

1685
01:21:06,640 --> 01:21:10,799
Speaker 1: and rising, she was being bullied in the most hateful ways.

1686
01:21:11,280 --> 01:21:13,479
Speaker 1: I really recommend people watch. And this is someone else

1687
01:21:13,520 --> 01:21:16,400
Speaker 1: who I admire and was a damaged person. So I

1688
01:21:16,400 --> 01:21:18,599
Speaker 1: don't want to say this in a spirit of judgment,

1689
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:22,080
Speaker 1: but you can watch it on YouTube. There's an interview

1690
01:21:22,120 --> 01:21:24,800
Speaker 1: between Oprah and Joan Rivers from I think nineteen eighty five,

1691
01:21:25,280 --> 01:21:27,000
Speaker 1: and I'll preface this by saying, a Joan Rivers was

1692
01:21:27,000 --> 01:21:31,479
Speaker 1: the funniest comedian I've ever seen, and be Joan Rivers

1693
01:21:31,479 --> 01:21:32,880
Speaker 1: was someone who hated her own body and was at

1694
01:21:32,920 --> 01:21:35,639
Speaker 1: war with her own body. So she's externalizing something that's

1695
01:21:35,640 --> 01:21:40,120
Speaker 1: an internal, horrifying battle. But it's viscerally shocking when you

1696
01:21:40,160 --> 01:21:43,760
Speaker 1: watch it now. She says to Oprah something like, I

1697
01:21:43,880 --> 01:21:45,040
Speaker 1: haven't watched it in a long time, so I'm going

1698
01:21:45,080 --> 01:21:46,800
Speaker 1: to be get the exact wording wrong. But she says

1699
01:21:46,840 --> 01:21:49,880
Speaker 1: something like, you can't be this fat, you need to

1700
01:21:49,920 --> 01:21:53,040
Speaker 1: lose weight. And it's not said as a joke. It's

1701
01:21:53,040 --> 01:21:54,599
Speaker 1: not framed as like I mean, it would be would

1702
01:21:54,640 --> 01:21:56,360
Speaker 1: be acceptable as a joke, but it's not even framed

1703
01:21:56,400 --> 01:22:00,280
Speaker 1: as a joke. And you can see just looks really

1704
01:22:00,280 --> 01:22:02,280
Speaker 1: thrown and make some joke about herself because what else

1705
01:22:02,280 --> 01:22:05,120
Speaker 1: could she do? But you think, God, that's the Tonight Shows.

1706
01:22:05,280 --> 01:22:08,240
Speaker 1: They're on the Tonight Show, right, that's because Joan was

1707
01:22:08,280 --> 01:22:11,639
Speaker 1: the guest host. How many people watch that? Twenty five

1708
01:22:11,640 --> 01:22:13,920
Speaker 1: million people? That's been brutally shamed in front of twenty

1709
01:22:13,920 --> 01:22:15,920
Speaker 1: five million people. You think Oprah's carrying that the whole

1710
01:22:15,920 --> 01:22:18,800
Speaker 1: time she's torturing herself. You know that famous the famous

1711
01:22:18,840 --> 01:22:21,599
Speaker 1: image of her with the you know, the thing that

1712
01:22:21,840 --> 01:22:24,920
Speaker 1: represents as much fat as she's lost. And you think, God,

1713
01:22:24,960 --> 01:22:27,440
Speaker 1: I feel so sad if you, even if your Oprah,

1714
01:22:28,439 --> 01:22:32,120
Speaker 1: you get tortured about it, right, you just realize. So

1715
01:22:32,160 --> 01:22:36,519
Speaker 1: to see her overcome that and see her looking so well,

1716
01:22:36,800 --> 01:22:40,639
Speaker 1: and to see her given a space beyond that stigma,

1717
01:22:40,720 --> 01:22:44,120
Speaker 1: I found incredibly moving. But that's tied up for me

1718
01:22:44,200 --> 01:22:46,080
Speaker 1: with so many other feelings about Oprah that I can't

1719
01:22:46,080 --> 01:22:47,439
Speaker 1: really you know.

1720
01:22:48,120 --> 01:22:49,760
Speaker 2: No for sure. And do you feel like some of

1721
01:22:49,760 --> 01:22:52,080
Speaker 2: that stigma's now going the other way too? Right? Oh,

1722
01:22:52,160 --> 01:22:55,200
Speaker 2: you lost weight because of a zambic so then that

1723
01:22:55,280 --> 01:22:56,519
Speaker 2: stigma creeping in, have you.

1724
01:22:56,800 --> 01:22:59,800
Speaker 1: I think what's happening is a complicated thing. Just like

1725
01:23:01,160 --> 01:23:03,200
Speaker 1: the drugs interrupt the way we eat and bring to

1726
01:23:03,240 --> 01:23:05,479
Speaker 1: the surface these emotional feelings we didn't know were there.

1727
01:23:06,920 --> 01:23:10,720
Speaker 1: I think culturally, as zen pick is leeching out some

1728
01:23:10,840 --> 01:23:15,320
Speaker 1: deep underlying ideas about obesity. So, for example, I'm a

1729
01:23:15,320 --> 01:23:18,160
Speaker 1: feeling experience in them to myself. When I was taking

1730
01:23:18,200 --> 01:23:22,360
Speaker 1: the drug, I kept thinking I'm cheating, I'm doing something wrong.

1731
01:23:22,920 --> 01:23:24,439
Speaker 1: I think that's really weird. One of my best friends

1732
01:23:24,439 --> 01:23:27,920
Speaker 1: to take statins right to lower's cholesterol. I've never once

1733
01:23:27,960 --> 01:23:30,040
Speaker 1: thought cheating to get lower cholesterol than me. You think

1734
01:23:30,080 --> 01:23:31,840
Speaker 1: I was crazy if I said that, Right, that's really

1735
01:23:31,840 --> 01:23:33,519
Speaker 1: weird what's going on here? And I think it lies

1736
01:23:33,560 --> 01:23:34,960
Speaker 1: with that. It looks a lot into the history of

1737
01:23:35,000 --> 01:23:37,200
Speaker 1: obesity and how we talk and think about it. So

1738
01:23:37,200 --> 01:23:39,280
Speaker 1: if you look back in the sixth century, the pope

1739
01:23:39,280 --> 01:23:41,720
Speaker 1: Pope Gregory the First was the first one to lay

1740
01:23:41,720 --> 01:23:45,320
Speaker 1: out the seven Deadly sins, and one of them is gluttony,

1741
01:23:45,360 --> 01:23:48,519
Speaker 1: and it's always depicted with like some hugely fat person

1742
01:23:49,400 --> 01:23:54,120
Speaker 1: picking out It's very deep in our kind of psychees

1743
01:23:54,920 --> 01:23:57,680
Speaker 1: to think of obesity as a sin, right, And one

1744
01:23:57,680 --> 01:23:58,920
Speaker 1: of the ways you know that is what are the

1745
01:23:59,000 --> 01:24:02,360
Speaker 1: forms of weight loss we had? There's basically only one form,

1746
01:24:02,600 --> 01:24:05,360
Speaker 1: and it follows the classic Catholic pattern of like the sinner,

1747
01:24:06,840 --> 01:24:09,960
Speaker 1: you're sinner. You've got to be tormented, you've got to

1748
01:24:10,160 --> 01:24:13,000
Speaker 1: go through hell and purgatory, and then we'll forgive you.

1749
01:24:13,040 --> 01:24:14,960
Speaker 1: So think about that game show the world. It's called

1750
01:24:14,960 --> 01:24:18,679
Speaker 1: the Biggest Loser, repulsive and wicked show in my view,

1751
01:24:20,200 --> 01:24:22,839
Speaker 1: but it's where people haven't seen it. People are very unwell,

1752
01:24:22,960 --> 01:24:26,360
Speaker 1: very seriously overweight, are humiliated, made to take part in

1753
01:24:26,560 --> 01:24:29,400
Speaker 1: very extreme and in fact dangerous forms of exercise and

1754
01:24:29,520 --> 01:24:32,679
Speaker 1: starve themselves, and whoever loses the most weight is the

1755
01:24:32,680 --> 01:24:36,880
Speaker 1: biggest loser and therefore wins. It's like, oh yeah, if

1756
01:24:36,920 --> 01:24:39,400
Speaker 1: you torture yourself and go through agony, then we'll forgive

1757
01:24:39,400 --> 01:24:42,599
Speaker 1: you for your sin. Then we'll go, well done, good job, Joe. Right.

1758
01:24:43,280 --> 01:24:46,280
Speaker 1: But I think one of the things that's weird with

1759
01:24:46,320 --> 01:24:49,080
Speaker 1: those sen because it's so easy, right. So it's like

1760
01:24:49,280 --> 01:24:50,760
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people look at it and go, well,

1761
01:24:50,760 --> 01:24:53,479
Speaker 1: you haven't paid for your sin, right, you haven't suffered.

1762
01:24:54,040 --> 01:24:56,919
Speaker 1: If you suffer, we might forgive you suffer with bariatric surgery.

1763
01:24:58,200 --> 01:25:00,800
Speaker 1: I also think it underlies can you think about right

1764
01:25:01,680 --> 01:25:05,200
Speaker 1: in this culture which makes it so easy to be

1765
01:25:05,360 --> 01:25:07,200
Speaker 1: to over eat and be obese, and so hard to

1766
01:25:07,200 --> 01:25:11,600
Speaker 1: be healthy, lots of people are making daily sacrifices to

1767
01:25:12,320 --> 01:25:17,519
Speaker 1: not gain weight, particularly women. They're starving themselves, they're denying themselves,

1768
01:25:17,560 --> 01:25:20,640
Speaker 1: they're going hungry, they're doing extreme forms of exercise, and

1769
01:25:20,720 --> 01:25:24,519
Speaker 1: I think to them, people like me must look a

1770
01:25:24,520 --> 01:25:29,559
Speaker 1: bit like Lance Armstrong looks to a cyclist. It's what you, you, bastard.

1771
01:25:30,040 --> 01:25:31,960
Speaker 1: I work so hard for this and you just inject

1772
01:25:31,960 --> 01:25:33,960
Speaker 1: yourself once in the leg a week and you get

1773
01:25:34,000 --> 01:25:36,479
Speaker 1: the same benefit as me. Screw you. I can see

1774
01:25:36,479 --> 01:25:38,840
Speaker 1: where that impulse comes from, and I think we have

1775
01:25:38,880 --> 01:25:40,679
Speaker 1: to re I think we have to acknowledge those feelings

1776
01:25:40,680 --> 01:25:42,559
Speaker 1: are there. They were there in me, they're in everyone.

1777
01:25:42,600 --> 01:25:44,120
Speaker 1: I think it's you can't live in this culture and

1778
01:25:44,120 --> 01:25:47,840
Speaker 1: not absorb those ideas at some level. But then we

1779
01:25:47,920 --> 01:25:50,120
Speaker 1: have to say, okay, well, A, I don't think of

1780
01:25:50,120 --> 01:25:52,720
Speaker 1: these people are sinners. I think we're typical products of

1781
01:25:52,760 --> 01:25:56,640
Speaker 1: this environment, and i'd hope we can move beyond the

1782
01:25:56,680 --> 01:26:00,960
Speaker 1: ideas of with sixth century pope. But also in terms

1783
01:26:00,960 --> 01:26:05,000
Speaker 1: of being in a race and competing against each other, well,

1784
01:26:05,000 --> 01:26:08,040
Speaker 1: we are competing, but it's not me against you. It's

1785
01:26:08,160 --> 01:26:10,720
Speaker 1: all of us against the forces driving up obesity, which

1786
01:26:10,760 --> 01:26:13,200
Speaker 1: are the processed food industry. If we reframe it that way,

1787
01:26:13,240 --> 01:26:15,439
Speaker 1: we can get out. Look, we live in, as you

1788
01:26:15,479 --> 01:26:18,519
Speaker 1: know very well, a toxic age where you know, every

1789
01:26:18,560 --> 01:26:21,840
Speaker 1: conversation turns toxic very quickly, partly because of social media

1790
01:26:21,880 --> 01:26:24,720
Speaker 1: algorithms which prioritize negativity, all sorts of factors that are

1791
01:26:24,760 --> 01:26:28,080
Speaker 1: going on. If we want to have a non toxic

1792
01:26:28,120 --> 01:26:31,439
Speaker 1: conversation about obesity and about a zenpic, I think we've

1793
01:26:31,439 --> 01:26:35,040
Speaker 1: got to acknowledge those ideas about sin and cheating are there,

1794
01:26:36,400 --> 01:26:38,280
Speaker 1: and then we've got a move beyond them.

1795
01:26:38,280 --> 01:26:40,920
Speaker 2: Well said, Well said, yeah, I wonder whether you saw

1796
01:26:41,640 --> 01:26:45,080
Speaker 2: did you do it into any research on investors in

1797
01:26:45,160 --> 01:26:48,599
Speaker 2: fast foods and weight loss drugs, did you find any patterns?

1798
01:26:48,920 --> 01:26:52,400
Speaker 1: I didn't, but I'd be surprised if and there was

1799
01:26:52,439 --> 01:26:54,439
Speaker 1: some reporting in the Washington Post, which I only read briefly,

1800
01:26:54,439 --> 01:26:55,960
Speaker 1: so I don't want to get it wrong. But if

1801
01:26:55,960 --> 01:26:59,439
Speaker 1: I remember rightly, I suspect I don't know this, but

1802
01:26:59,479 --> 01:27:01,960
Speaker 1: I suspect the fast food industry will soon be funding

1803
01:27:02,000 --> 01:27:07,160
Speaker 1: antio zen pic propaganda, just like the tobacco industry used

1804
01:27:07,200 --> 01:27:10,120
Speaker 1: to fund, you know, claims that smoking isn't bad for

1805
01:27:10,200 --> 01:27:12,639
Speaker 1: you for yearsnars, or like the oil industry still funds

1806
01:27:13,120 --> 01:27:15,400
Speaker 1: claims that global warming isn't happening or is actually a

1807
01:27:15,400 --> 01:27:18,160
Speaker 1: good thing, or you know, over amazed if that isn't.

1808
01:27:18,160 --> 01:27:19,920
Speaker 1: I mean, they're going to lose a lot of money,

1809
01:27:20,000 --> 01:27:21,800
Speaker 1: and they are some of the most profitable companies in

1810
01:27:21,800 --> 01:27:24,960
Speaker 1: the whole world, so i'd be I suspect they're already

1811
01:27:25,000 --> 01:27:25,240
Speaker 1: doing it.

1812
01:27:25,320 --> 01:27:27,400
Speaker 2: I don't know, Yeah, yeah, No. It's an interesting to

1813
01:27:27,400 --> 01:27:30,920
Speaker 2: think about because I feel like part of our part

1814
01:27:30,920 --> 01:27:32,920
Speaker 2: of the environment we all live in, is somewhat of

1815
01:27:32,960 --> 01:27:37,559
Speaker 2: an illusion and ignorance of not understanding who's behind the

1816
01:27:37,640 --> 01:27:41,880
Speaker 2: narrative storytelling. You know, when fast food first came around,

1817
01:27:41,920 --> 01:27:44,160
Speaker 2: how did everyone not go, wait a minute, this is

1818
01:27:44,200 --> 01:27:45,720
Speaker 2: going to ruin the world, Like, how did we not

1819
01:27:45,840 --> 01:27:48,600
Speaker 2: do that? Or when, as you said, we're trying to

1820
01:27:48,600 --> 01:27:52,880
Speaker 2: find artificial solutions to artificial problems, and now that we're

1821
01:27:52,920 --> 01:27:55,680
Speaker 2: living in an artificial world, it's like, well, where did

1822
01:27:55,720 --> 01:27:57,360
Speaker 2: we allow that to happen? And I want to talk

1823
01:27:57,400 --> 01:28:00,599
Speaker 2: about Japan in that vein, because that was a place

1824
01:28:00,600 --> 01:28:04,080
Speaker 2: where you found that at least tried to deal with

1825
01:28:04,120 --> 01:28:05,920
Speaker 2: this in a much healthier, smarter way.

1826
01:28:06,320 --> 01:28:08,360
Speaker 1: This completely blew up. Have you been to Japan?

1827
01:28:09,000 --> 01:28:10,640
Speaker 2: So that's number one on my list right now.

1828
01:28:10,720 --> 01:28:12,360
Speaker 1: Okay, if there's one thing you take away from this

1829
01:28:12,400 --> 01:28:15,639
Speaker 1: conversation going to Japan, go to Japan. It I expected

1830
01:28:15,640 --> 01:28:18,680
Speaker 1: it to be great, and it massively exceeded by expectations.

1831
01:28:18,680 --> 01:28:20,840
Speaker 1: But it's completely amazing. I give your list of things

1832
01:28:20,840 --> 01:28:23,759
Speaker 1: to do. But the so Japan is really important because

1833
01:28:24,160 --> 01:28:27,840
Speaker 1: some people say about these drugs. Look, if the country

1834
01:28:27,840 --> 01:28:29,840
Speaker 1: gets to be rich, people are going to have more

1835
01:28:29,840 --> 01:28:32,840
Speaker 1: food than they can eat. Obesity is just inevitable, right,

1836
01:28:33,520 --> 01:28:36,800
Speaker 1: and therefore these drugs become inevitable. But actually, Japan is

1837
01:28:36,800 --> 01:28:38,639
Speaker 1: the third richest country in the world in the history

1838
01:28:38,640 --> 01:28:40,639
Speaker 1: of the world, and now is the third rich country

1839
01:28:40,640 --> 01:28:43,439
Speaker 1: in the world, and they have almost no obesity at all.

1840
01:28:43,880 --> 01:28:46,559
Speaker 1: Forty two point five percent of Americans are obese. It

1841
01:28:46,640 --> 01:28:51,200
Speaker 1: is four percent of people in Japan. Right, there's almost

1842
01:28:51,280 --> 01:28:53,400
Speaker 1: no childhood obesity in Japan. I went to a school

1843
01:28:53,439 --> 01:28:57,880
Speaker 1: in Tokyo, typical middle class school. When several schools, it's

1844
01:28:57,920 --> 01:29:00,400
Speaker 1: the weirdest thing walking around a school with a thousand

1845
01:29:00,439 --> 01:29:04,439
Speaker 1: children and they're being not one overweight child anywhere. It's

1846
01:29:05,680 --> 01:29:07,840
Speaker 1: as weird if you're used to going to British and

1847
01:29:07,840 --> 01:29:11,400
Speaker 1: American schools. So I wanted to understand how did Japan

1848
01:29:11,479 --> 01:29:13,160
Speaker 1: do it because I remember at first I read about

1849
01:29:13,200 --> 01:29:17,120
Speaker 1: you know, a zepic has been approved in Japan and

1850
01:29:18,160 --> 01:29:20,640
Speaker 1: are in any sales because there's no one to take it, right,

1851
01:29:20,680 --> 01:29:23,720
Speaker 1: almost nobody. It's a tiny, tiny market for it. And

1852
01:29:23,800 --> 01:29:25,720
Speaker 1: it's kind of weird that we expect Japanese people to

1853
01:29:25,760 --> 01:29:27,559
Speaker 1: look like sumo wrestlers. It would be like expecting an

1854
01:29:27,600 --> 01:29:30,000
Speaker 1: American to look like a bald eagle. And at first

1855
01:29:30,000 --> 01:29:31,720
Speaker 1: I thought it must just be that Japanese people won

1856
01:29:31,800 --> 01:29:35,000
Speaker 1: the genetic lottery, right, But that's not true. We know

1857
01:29:35,080 --> 01:29:38,519
Speaker 1: that because in the late nineteenth century lots of Japanese

1858
01:29:38,520 --> 01:29:41,599
Speaker 1: people moved to Hawaii. I was just there and they've

1859
01:29:41,640 --> 01:29:44,479
Speaker 1: been there ever since, and Japanese Hawaiians are almost as

1860
01:29:44,560 --> 01:29:47,200
Speaker 1: overweight as other Hawaiians. So and it's not that their

1861
01:29:47,240 --> 01:29:49,680
Speaker 1: genes suddenly mutated in one hundred and twenty years since.

1862
01:29:49,720 --> 01:29:52,280
Speaker 1: So something else is going on, right, There's something in

1863
01:29:52,320 --> 01:29:56,040
Speaker 1: the environment that's that's driving up obesity in our societies

1864
01:29:56,080 --> 01:30:00,720
Speaker 1: and hasn't in Japan. And there's so many fascinating things

1865
01:30:00,720 --> 01:30:03,040
Speaker 1: about this. I went to. The most important to understand

1866
01:30:03,040 --> 01:30:06,920
Speaker 1: is Japan deliberately created an environment in which it is

1867
01:30:06,960 --> 01:30:09,479
Speaker 1: hard to get fat and hard to eat badly. If

1868
01:30:09,520 --> 01:30:11,559
Speaker 1: you go back to the nineteen twenties, Japanese people had

1869
01:30:11,560 --> 01:30:13,439
Speaker 1: one of the worst diets in the world. They only

1870
01:30:13,600 --> 01:30:16,519
Speaker 1: ate protein on average once a week. Right, they were

1871
01:30:16,600 --> 01:30:20,680
Speaker 1: quite unwell. They had poor life expectancy, and the Japanese

1872
01:30:20,680 --> 01:30:24,680
Speaker 1: government at the time deliberately transformed the society. Not for

1873
01:30:24,720 --> 01:30:26,640
Speaker 1: a good reason, it's because they were They wanted to

1874
01:30:26,680 --> 01:30:28,479
Speaker 1: have an army to go and invade the rest of Asia.

1875
01:30:28,560 --> 01:30:30,640
Speaker 1: So we all got our motives for weight loss. Not

1876
01:30:30,680 --> 01:30:33,639
Speaker 1: the best run, but you know whatever, it worked, right

1877
01:30:34,080 --> 01:30:37,120
Speaker 1: they and they deliberately created this new new diet in

1878
01:30:37,120 --> 01:30:39,360
Speaker 1: this new way being which is now continued in policy

1879
01:30:39,360 --> 01:30:43,880
Speaker 1: in Japan. So I went to school, like I say,

1880
01:30:43,880 --> 01:30:46,559
Speaker 1: in Tokyo to see how does it begin. There's lots

1881
01:30:46,560 --> 01:30:49,360
Speaker 1: of layers at which they do this. And I was

1882
01:30:49,360 --> 01:30:51,360
Speaker 1: greeted at the door by a woman called Harumi to

1883
01:30:51,439 --> 01:30:55,040
Speaker 1: t Bay who's the nutritionist at this school, Coenji School.

1884
01:30:55,880 --> 01:30:58,880
Speaker 1: Every school, by law in Japan has to employ a

1885
01:30:58,920 --> 01:31:03,080
Speaker 1: professional nutritionists. It's a difficult qualification to get. It's three years.

1886
01:31:03,120 --> 01:31:05,720
Speaker 1: On top of your teaching qualification. Your job is to

1887
01:31:05,800 --> 01:31:08,760
Speaker 1: design the food that the kids eat. By law, the

1888
01:31:08,840 --> 01:31:11,240
Speaker 1: kids can't bring back lunches. They have to eat what's

1889
01:31:11,280 --> 01:31:14,400
Speaker 1: prepared there, and they can only that food has to

1890
01:31:14,479 --> 01:31:17,479
Speaker 1: be fresh, prepared on the day and have no processed

1891
01:31:17,600 --> 01:31:21,120
Speaker 1: ingredients at all. And then they use this healthy food

1892
01:31:21,120 --> 01:31:23,680
Speaker 1: which has to contain all the food groups every day

1893
01:31:23,720 --> 01:31:28,080
Speaker 1: to educate the kids about how to make their bodies healthy.

1894
01:31:28,400 --> 01:31:30,240
Speaker 1: So still, you know, they're eating this food. And Japanese

1895
01:31:30,240 --> 01:31:32,880
Speaker 1: people love food. It's not a place people deny themselves food.

1896
01:31:32,880 --> 01:31:35,439
Speaker 1: They love it. Right, So with these group of kids,

1897
01:31:35,680 --> 01:31:37,800
Speaker 1: they're eating the school lunch, which literally is more like

1898
01:31:37,920 --> 01:31:41,519
Speaker 1: something from Nobu than like anything we ever ate at school, right,

1899
01:31:41,920 --> 01:31:43,920
Speaker 1: and they're eating it. And I say to these kids

1900
01:31:44,120 --> 01:31:46,800
Speaker 1: through my translator Chier, I said to these kids and

1901
01:31:46,880 --> 01:31:49,519
Speaker 1: never forget it the class I think of in particularly

1902
01:31:49,560 --> 01:31:53,280
Speaker 1: we're nine ten year olds. I said, what's your favorite food?

1903
01:31:54,000 --> 01:31:56,960
Speaker 1: The first kid said broccoli. I love broccoli. I was like, okay,

1904
01:31:57,000 --> 01:32:00,960
Speaker 1: little freak. So to the next kid, what's your favorite food?

1905
01:32:01,000 --> 01:32:03,280
Speaker 1: She said white fish. I said to the next kid,

1906
01:32:03,320 --> 01:32:05,920
Speaker 1: and she said, I boiled white rice. And I turned

1907
01:32:05,920 --> 01:32:07,519
Speaker 1: to cheer and I said, are these kids trolling me?

1908
01:32:07,600 --> 01:32:07,720
Speaker 2: Right?

1909
01:32:07,760 --> 01:32:10,599
Speaker 1: Their favorite foods are broccoli and a cheer Like all

1910
01:32:10,680 --> 01:32:14,160
Speaker 1: Japanese people could not understand why. I was puzzled and said, well,

1911
01:32:14,200 --> 01:32:16,080
Speaker 1: what do you mean. We teach our kids to eat

1912
01:32:16,120 --> 01:32:19,719
Speaker 1: healthy food? Don't you do that? And every food group

1913
01:32:19,760 --> 01:32:21,920
Speaker 1: they have they have a rope, a colored rope, so

1914
01:32:21,960 --> 01:32:26,200
Speaker 1: they like when they're eating the calcium shells up the

1915
01:32:26,240 --> 01:32:28,360
Speaker 1: white rope, she goes, this is calcium. What does it

1916
01:32:28,400 --> 01:32:30,080
Speaker 1: do when someone yells at It makes your bone strong?

1917
01:32:30,120 --> 01:32:32,120
Speaker 1: And she goes the red rope, this is carbs. What

1918
01:32:32,120 --> 01:32:34,519
Speaker 1: do they do give you energy? And she ties the

1919
01:32:34,600 --> 01:32:37,519
Speaker 1: ropes together in every lesson and that surrounded meal that

1920
01:32:37,560 --> 01:32:40,040
Speaker 1: you should have in every meal. Right, So they teach

1921
01:32:40,120 --> 01:32:44,200
Speaker 1: kids from a very young age how to nuture their bodies.

1922
01:32:44,200 --> 01:32:45,519
Speaker 1: And I was with these kids, and I couldn't help.

1923
01:32:45,800 --> 01:32:48,240
Speaker 1: I couldn't resist the temptation. I pulled up on my

1924
01:32:48,360 --> 01:32:53,040
Speaker 1: phone videos of British and American school meals, and these

1925
01:32:53,080 --> 01:32:55,679
Speaker 1: kids reacted like I had shown them an Isis beheading video.

1926
01:32:55,760 --> 01:32:58,439
Speaker 1: They like screamed, they were like what are They said

1927
01:32:58,479 --> 01:33:01,679
Speaker 1: to me, where are the vegetables? Said, there are no vegetables.

1928
01:33:01,840 --> 01:33:04,400
Speaker 1: Where's the salad? I said, there is no salad. They

1929
01:33:04,400 --> 01:33:06,720
Speaker 1: were just complete and it was very touching. My little

1930
01:33:06,760 --> 01:33:09,360
Speaker 1: girl put her hand on my shoulder and said, I'm

1931
01:33:09,400 --> 01:33:12,000
Speaker 1: worried about you. Well it like it was completely adorable. Right.

1932
01:33:12,280 --> 01:33:15,559
Speaker 1: It begins there and then all through the society. There

1933
01:33:15,560 --> 01:33:18,920
Speaker 1: are measures taken to make processed food. You can buy

1934
01:33:18,960 --> 01:33:20,960
Speaker 1: it if you want to, but it's very much a

1935
01:33:21,000 --> 01:33:24,920
Speaker 1: minority pursuit. It exists, but it's a tiny part of

1936
01:33:24,920 --> 01:33:29,479
Speaker 1: the Japanese diet, overwhelming the fish, fresh food, vegetables. Most

1937
01:33:29,479 --> 01:33:31,920
Speaker 1: people eat fresh food that's prepared on the day. And

1938
01:33:31,960 --> 01:33:36,439
Speaker 1: I think probably the most moving conversation I had for

1939
01:33:36,520 --> 01:33:40,360
Speaker 1: the whole book was in Okinawa, which is an archipelago

1940
01:33:40,400 --> 01:33:43,559
Speaker 1: of islands in the south of Japan, where I really

1941
01:33:43,640 --> 01:33:47,960
Speaker 1: saw what you win if you get this right. So

1942
01:33:48,040 --> 01:33:50,960
Speaker 1: Japan has the longest life expectancy in the world. Women

1943
01:33:51,000 --> 01:33:52,800
Speaker 1: live to be eighty eight. Men I think it's eighty two.

1944
01:33:53,920 --> 01:33:56,040
Speaker 1: But not just that. They have the healthiest lifespan in

1945
01:33:56,040 --> 01:33:58,280
Speaker 1: the world. So the average British person is in poor health.

1946
01:33:58,720 --> 01:34:01,000
Speaker 1: I think it's sixteen years before they die. In Japan,

1947
01:34:01,040 --> 01:34:06,160
Speaker 1: it's like a few years. So it's a very different relationship.

1948
01:34:06,520 --> 01:34:09,200
Speaker 1: And so I went to this place that sounds almost mythical.

1949
01:34:09,200 --> 01:34:12,360
Speaker 1: It's called Ogeemi. It's the oldest village in the whole world.

1950
01:34:13,040 --> 01:34:15,120
Speaker 1: It has two hundred and fifteen houses and one hundred

1951
01:34:15,120 --> 01:34:17,280
Speaker 1: and ninety two have someone older than the age older

1952
01:34:17,320 --> 01:34:20,400
Speaker 1: than the age of ninety living there. And I went

1953
01:34:20,439 --> 01:34:22,280
Speaker 1: there and I went to they' got this little community center.

1954
01:34:23,600 --> 01:34:25,960
Speaker 1: And the first person I met, the first woman who

1955
01:34:25,960 --> 01:34:28,160
Speaker 1: walked through the door, was the one hundred and two

1956
01:34:28,240 --> 01:34:30,760
Speaker 1: year old woman called Matsufakucci, who walked there on her

1957
01:34:30,800 --> 01:34:33,840
Speaker 1: own from her home down the hill. And she said,

1958
01:34:33,880 --> 01:34:36,360
Speaker 1: I can't stay long because I'm looking after my son

1959
01:34:36,479 --> 01:34:38,080
Speaker 1: who fell off the roof fixing it the other day.

1960
01:34:38,080 --> 01:34:39,759
Speaker 1: I was like, Jesus, how old is your son? But okay,

1961
01:34:40,800 --> 01:34:43,679
Speaker 1: and we sat down and we talked and she talked

1962
01:34:43,680 --> 01:34:46,519
Speaker 1: about how much she loved life. It was volleyball season.

1963
01:34:46,560 --> 01:34:49,200
Speaker 1: She's been watching a great grandchildren play volleyball. I actually

1964
01:34:49,280 --> 01:34:52,360
Speaker 1: loved volleyball. You could see how much joy she took

1965
01:34:52,400 --> 01:34:54,280
Speaker 1: in life. Two into all these old women. And then

1966
01:34:54,280 --> 01:34:59,200
Speaker 1: someone put on some older Okinawan music and she put

1967
01:34:59,240 --> 01:35:02,240
Speaker 1: on a kimono and she started dancing. And so I

1968
01:35:02,280 --> 01:35:04,439
Speaker 1: start dancing with this one hundred and two year old woman,

1969
01:35:04,439 --> 01:35:08,400
Speaker 1: and I thought, wow, you were born before they started

1970
01:35:08,439 --> 01:35:11,799
Speaker 1: doing radio broadcasts in Japan. And here I am dancing

1971
01:35:11,800 --> 01:35:15,559
Speaker 1: with you and recording it on my iPhone. That's what

1972
01:35:15,600 --> 01:35:17,839
Speaker 1: you get if you solve obesity. You don't get destroyed.

1973
01:35:18,000 --> 01:35:19,559
Speaker 1: Clearly not everyone will live to one hundred and two,

1974
01:35:19,600 --> 01:35:22,280
Speaker 1: but you don't get your knees destroyed and your heart

1975
01:35:22,360 --> 01:35:25,000
Speaker 1: destroyed and your you know, you get to live, and

1976
01:35:25,040 --> 01:35:28,120
Speaker 1: you get more years of joy and more years of laughter,

1977
01:35:28,160 --> 01:35:30,840
Speaker 1: and more years of dancing. That's what we get if

1978
01:35:30,840 --> 01:35:33,880
Speaker 1: we solve this crisis, and it is within our grasp

1979
01:35:34,000 --> 01:35:37,160
Speaker 1: to solve it. These drugs are one tool. They are

1980
01:35:37,200 --> 01:35:41,880
Speaker 1: a difficult and controversial tool, and I'm not sure I've

1981
01:35:41,880 --> 01:35:43,519
Speaker 1: made the right decision to carry on taking them. It

1982
01:35:43,560 --> 01:35:46,559
Speaker 1: was the heart benefits. That did it for me. But

1983
01:35:47,520 --> 01:35:50,439
Speaker 1: we absolutely can deal with this wider crisis. They've done

1984
01:35:50,479 --> 01:35:53,360
Speaker 1: it in Japan. Think about smoking. Right, when we were kids,

1985
01:35:53,400 --> 01:35:56,920
Speaker 1: people smoked everywhere. People smoked on the subway, people smoked

1986
01:35:56,920 --> 01:36:00,120
Speaker 1: on the bus, people smoked on the plane. Doctors to

1987
01:36:00,160 --> 01:36:02,439
Speaker 1: smoke while they examined you. I remember it happening. There's

1988
01:36:02,479 --> 01:36:05,560
Speaker 1: a photo of me and my mother where she's breastfeeding

1989
01:36:05,600 --> 01:36:08,760
Speaker 1: me when I'm a baby, obviously smoking and resting the

1990
01:36:08,800 --> 01:36:11,000
Speaker 1: ashtray on my stomach. When I found this photo a

1991
01:36:11,000 --> 01:36:12,639
Speaker 1: few years ago, I thought she'd feel guilty. I showed

1992
01:36:12,680 --> 01:36:14,920
Speaker 1: it to She said, you were a difficult baby. I

1993
01:36:14,920 --> 01:36:17,240
Speaker 1: needed that cigarette. Right. If you think about how normal

1994
01:36:17,360 --> 01:36:19,720
Speaker 1: that was then. Right now, if you saw that, you'd

1995
01:36:19,720 --> 01:36:22,360
Speaker 1: call the police. Right, we've gone from you know, more

1996
01:36:22,360 --> 01:36:24,679
Speaker 1: than fifty percent of people with smokers when we were kids,

1997
01:36:24,960 --> 01:36:27,360
Speaker 1: it's now twelve percent. You very rarely see a young

1998
01:36:27,360 --> 01:36:29,559
Speaker 1: persons smoking cigarettes now, Ka, we've gotn issue with vaping.

1999
01:36:29,600 --> 01:36:33,360
Speaker 1: But you know that's an enormous transformation that's happened in

2000
01:36:33,360 --> 01:36:37,040
Speaker 1: our lifetimes through concerted action. Right, we can do the

2001
01:36:37,040 --> 01:36:39,360
Speaker 1: same with food. We can free future generations from this

2002
01:36:39,400 --> 01:36:43,160
Speaker 1: shitty choice. Japan showed me you can do it with joy. Right,

2003
01:36:43,280 --> 01:36:46,200
Speaker 1: Japanese people aren't sitting there being miserable. They love food.

2004
01:36:46,280 --> 01:36:48,320
Speaker 1: Their food is grabbed, never eaten, better than in the

2005
01:36:48,320 --> 01:36:50,040
Speaker 1: two and a half weeks I was in Japan. Right,

2006
01:36:50,200 --> 01:36:54,280
Speaker 1: literally never right. It's not about depriving yourself. It's about

2007
01:36:54,320 --> 01:36:57,840
Speaker 1: making better choices and empowering everyone to be in an

2008
01:36:57,880 --> 01:36:59,479
Speaker 1: environment where we can make better choices.

2009
01:37:00,160 --> 01:37:03,960
Speaker 2: Still have a stigma around body shape, size, weight and

2010
01:37:04,000 --> 01:37:04,720
Speaker 2: all of that as well.

2011
01:37:05,040 --> 01:37:08,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is one of the complexities, so I don't

2012
01:37:08,080 --> 01:37:10,320
Speaker 1: want to shy away from it. These people are horrifically

2013
01:37:10,320 --> 01:37:14,920
Speaker 1: stigmatizing towards overweight people, and that informs some of their policies,

2014
01:37:15,840 --> 01:37:18,800
Speaker 1: which are just so strange to us that they sound

2015
01:37:18,840 --> 01:37:21,280
Speaker 1: like a kind of just bizarre parallel universe. Give an example,

2016
01:37:21,800 --> 01:37:24,639
Speaker 1: So in two thousand and eight, they had their obesity

2017
01:37:24,720 --> 01:37:26,800
Speaker 1: level went up by like zero point four percent, and

2018
01:37:26,800 --> 01:37:29,360
Speaker 1: they had a massive, like national freak out, and it

2019
01:37:29,400 --> 01:37:32,559
Speaker 1: was like this huge debate intopad. It was from like

2020
01:37:32,720 --> 01:37:34,840
Speaker 1: you know, I can't remember, it's literally for it saying

2021
01:37:34,880 --> 01:37:37,000
Speaker 1: like three percent to three point four percent or like

2022
01:37:37,040 --> 01:37:39,360
Speaker 1: saying that like we wouldn't even notice it in the

2023
01:37:39,439 --> 01:37:43,400
Speaker 1: US if that happened, right, And there's a huge debate,

2024
01:37:44,400 --> 01:37:47,120
Speaker 1: and they introduced something that I, frankly just when I

2025
01:37:47,160 --> 01:37:49,040
Speaker 1: read about it, thought this can't be true. It's so

2026
01:37:49,160 --> 01:37:53,360
Speaker 1: called the Matabo law. It's named after metabolic syndrome, which

2027
01:37:53,400 --> 01:37:55,720
Speaker 1: is a kind of combination of problems you can get

2028
01:37:55,720 --> 01:37:59,840
Speaker 1: when you're obese. This has very bad health effect. The

2029
01:38:00,000 --> 01:38:02,360
Speaker 1: introduced this rule. I actually kin'd even say it without

2030
01:38:02,400 --> 01:38:09,080
Speaker 1: like it decided insaid in Japan, every single employee once

2031
01:38:09,120 --> 01:38:12,639
Speaker 1: a year has to be weighed by their employer. If

2032
01:38:12,680 --> 01:38:14,680
Speaker 1: your weight has gone up, you have to, by law

2033
01:38:14,800 --> 01:38:17,240
Speaker 1: drop a plan with your employer to bring your weight down.

2034
01:38:18,280 --> 01:38:21,559
Speaker 1: And a company overall has to report its weight levels

2035
01:38:21,560 --> 01:38:25,240
Speaker 1: to the government, and if your overall workforce got fatter,

2036
01:38:25,320 --> 01:38:27,519
Speaker 1: you can be fined by the government. Right, So it's like,

2037
01:38:27,800 --> 01:38:29,800
Speaker 1: how can this work? So I went to this company

2038
01:38:30,040 --> 01:38:32,280
Speaker 1: that does it. I mean every company does it, but

2039
01:38:32,360 --> 01:38:33,559
Speaker 1: this is a company that agreed to show me, partly

2040
01:38:33,560 --> 01:38:37,200
Speaker 1: because they manufacture products to keep you healthy, so they

2041
01:38:37,200 --> 01:38:38,800
Speaker 1: can't want people to know about it, and they're super

2042
01:38:38,880 --> 01:38:43,559
Speaker 1: nice people, but it was freaky. So you arrive the

2043
01:38:43,600 --> 01:38:45,080
Speaker 1: first thing you see when you arrive at work is

2044
01:38:45,080 --> 01:38:49,920
Speaker 1: a face recognition thing. It says, hij you walked one

2045
01:38:50,000 --> 01:38:52,360
Speaker 1: three hundred steps yesterday whatever, because you have to wear

2046
01:38:52,360 --> 01:38:55,320
Speaker 1: a fitbit equivalent and a fitbit, and then it says

2047
01:38:55,360 --> 01:38:57,439
Speaker 1: you were number one hundred and twenty one in the company.

2048
01:38:58,000 --> 01:39:00,920
Speaker 1: By the way, Susie who said two deaths away from

2049
01:39:00,960 --> 01:39:04,679
Speaker 1: you hasn't weighed herself this week. Tell her to weigh herself.

2050
01:39:04,720 --> 01:39:08,680
Speaker 1: You're like, ohh And then so every you're encouraged. It's

2051
01:39:08,680 --> 01:39:12,720
Speaker 1: not required, but you're encouraged to take a photograph of

2052
01:39:12,760 --> 01:39:15,200
Speaker 1: every meal you take and post it so you can

2053
01:39:15,240 --> 01:39:17,040
Speaker 1: literally go, oh, I wonder what Bobby sits next to

2054
01:39:17,080 --> 01:39:18,680
Speaker 1: me eight yesterday and you can look at it all.

2055
01:39:19,439 --> 01:39:21,720
Speaker 1: It's just bizarre. And I was interviewing people there, so

2056
01:39:21,760 --> 01:39:23,519
Speaker 1: in to be the boss, who's this fifty eight year

2057
01:39:23,520 --> 01:39:28,680
Speaker 1: old man, I have to say, incredibly hot boss? And

2058
01:39:28,720 --> 01:39:30,240
Speaker 1: he was like talking about yeah, this is you know,

2059
01:39:30,280 --> 01:39:32,240
Speaker 1: it's great, it's really good for everyone. And I was

2060
01:39:32,280 --> 01:39:37,000
Speaker 1: interviewing the employees and they would go, yeah, this really

2061
01:39:37,000 --> 01:39:39,439
Speaker 1: helps me be healthy, and I would kind of go, right,

2062
01:39:39,520 --> 01:39:42,120
Speaker 1: So if you did this in the US or Britain,

2063
01:39:42,160 --> 01:39:45,519
Speaker 1: we would burn the office building down. And they genuinely

2064
01:39:45,520 --> 01:39:48,120
Speaker 1: didn't understand we're saying. They would kind of go, well,

2065
01:39:48,160 --> 01:39:51,400
Speaker 1: why they just it was. It really was a moment

2066
01:39:51,439 --> 01:39:53,960
Speaker 1: I thought I could profound cultural chasm, right, I thought,

2067
01:39:54,360 --> 01:39:55,879
Speaker 1: this is you're not like us.

2068
01:39:56,760 --> 01:39:58,840
Speaker 2: And we're not like and we can't Yeah. Yeah, just

2069
01:39:58,840 --> 01:40:01,360
Speaker 2: as they can't understand us, we can't understand that exactly.

2070
01:40:01,360 --> 01:40:03,120
Speaker 1: So there are lots of things about the Japanese model

2071
01:40:03,760 --> 01:40:06,240
Speaker 1: I definitely would not I mean, we couldn't integrate that

2072
01:40:06,240 --> 01:40:07,760
Speaker 1: even if we want to. But if we could, I

2073
01:40:07,760 --> 01:40:09,840
Speaker 1: wouldn't want to. So there's lots of things about the

2074
01:40:09,920 --> 01:40:13,280
Speaker 1: Japanese model we can't integrate, including just shame. Right, it's

2075
01:40:13,280 --> 01:40:16,200
Speaker 1: a very particularly to women who are overweight. It's really

2076
01:40:16,280 --> 01:40:18,640
Speaker 1: brutal the shaming there. So yeah, there's lots of things

2077
01:40:18,640 --> 01:40:20,639
Speaker 1: we wouldn't want to integrate, and lots of things we would.

2078
01:40:20,960 --> 01:40:24,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's one thing that has stayed with me

2079
01:40:24,080 --> 01:40:26,360
Speaker 2: as we've been on this beautiful journey together. Today, I

2080
01:40:26,360 --> 01:40:28,560
Speaker 2: feel like we've you know, I've learned so much from you,

2081
01:40:28,640 --> 01:40:30,920
Speaker 2: or less much from the book. I really want people

2082
01:40:30,960 --> 01:40:33,679
Speaker 2: to read the book, to dive into it. We've kind

2083
01:40:33,680 --> 01:40:37,519
Speaker 2: of nicely kind of visited different chapters and different sections

2084
01:40:37,520 --> 01:40:40,639
Speaker 2: insides of the book. But there's one thing that stayed

2085
01:40:40,640 --> 01:40:43,920
Speaker 2: with me, and it's this idea of even after being

2086
01:40:43,960 --> 01:40:48,719
Speaker 2: on a zebig, if people are unable to change their

2087
01:40:48,960 --> 01:40:54,800
Speaker 2: eating habits even though they're satiated quicker, does that not

2088
01:40:54,840 --> 01:40:56,880
Speaker 2: necessarily double up on the health problems too?

2089
01:40:57,320 --> 01:41:00,160
Speaker 1: So inevitably changes you're eating patterns one key way you

2090
01:41:00,160 --> 01:41:02,960
Speaker 1: eat much less. Right, But an issue, and this was

2091
01:41:03,000 --> 01:41:05,559
Speaker 1: definitely true of me for the first six months, is

2092
01:41:05,920 --> 01:41:07,680
Speaker 1: to put it crudely, I was eating smaller.

2093
01:41:07,360 --> 01:41:10,320
Speaker 2: Portions of the same old I mean, yeah, yes, I was.

2094
01:41:10,320 --> 01:41:12,360
Speaker 1: Going to McDonald's been Instead of getting like a large

2095
01:41:12,360 --> 01:41:15,160
Speaker 1: big macmeal and nine nuggets, I was getting a hamburger. Right,

2096
01:41:15,760 --> 01:41:18,080
Speaker 1: And that's a move in the right direction, but still

2097
01:41:18,200 --> 01:41:21,800
Speaker 1: very imperfect. As Robert Kushner, one of the scientists who's

2098
01:41:21,800 --> 01:41:24,800
Speaker 1: involved in the studies about these drugs, explained to me, Look,

2099
01:41:25,600 --> 01:41:27,880
Speaker 1: there's an issue about nutrition just separate to wait. If

2100
01:41:27,880 --> 01:41:30,120
Speaker 1: you're eating food that doesn't give your body what it needs,

2101
01:41:30,200 --> 01:41:33,080
Speaker 1: even if you're not obese, that's still really bad for you. Right.

2102
01:41:34,080 --> 01:41:35,559
Speaker 1: So for me, it made me realize I had to

2103
01:41:35,560 --> 01:41:37,080
Speaker 1: do it. I'm super embarrassed to say it, but I

2104
01:41:37,080 --> 01:41:38,600
Speaker 1: didn't know how to cook. I didn't know how to

2105
01:41:38,600 --> 01:41:41,320
Speaker 1: do really basic things. I learned that partly because I

2106
01:41:41,360 --> 01:41:44,000
Speaker 1: realized I had to make that change. But you could

2107
01:41:44,120 --> 01:41:46,280
Speaker 1: I could have just carried on eating smaller portions. And frankly,

2108
01:41:46,720 --> 01:41:48,200
Speaker 1: I'm on the road at the moment, I am eating

2109
01:41:48,200 --> 01:41:50,160
Speaker 1: smaller portions of the same shit. This morning I had

2110
01:41:50,360 --> 01:41:53,519
Speaker 1: travelers travel is really tough, or even try living in

2111
01:41:53,600 --> 01:41:57,639
Speaker 1: Las Vegas, no idea, But you're worried about portion size

2112
01:41:57,640 --> 01:42:02,840
Speaker 1: in this country, generally you want to try Vegas. But yeah, so, yeah,

2113
01:42:02,840 --> 01:42:05,280
Speaker 1: the issue A pointed to is real. I mean, you're

2114
01:42:05,320 --> 01:42:09,160
Speaker 1: still moving in a positive direction, but it can leave you, yeah,

2115
01:42:09,280 --> 01:42:11,880
Speaker 1: far from from the ideal position.

2116
01:42:11,960 --> 01:42:14,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Yeah, And it's been such a joy

2117
01:42:14,960 --> 01:42:19,599
Speaker 2: talking to you today, deeply insightful and appreciate the honesty

2118
01:42:19,600 --> 01:42:23,760
Speaker 2: of just what a challenging, nuanced, layered subject matter this is.

2119
01:42:23,800 --> 01:42:27,240
Speaker 2: And I feel your analysis, research and thought through it

2120
01:42:27,280 --> 01:42:31,160
Speaker 2: is actually so so so helpful in that if people

2121
01:42:31,200 --> 01:42:33,880
Speaker 2: are confused in their decision making for themselves their family,

2122
01:42:33,960 --> 01:42:37,919
Speaker 2: I think you've at least given them every angle possible

2123
01:42:37,960 --> 01:42:41,840
Speaker 2: to think about, which is I think sometimes what's missing, right,

2124
01:42:41,880 --> 01:42:44,680
Speaker 2: Sometimes we are just presented a binary angle, which is

2125
01:42:44,680 --> 01:42:47,559
Speaker 2: where we started and now we're ending today feeling like

2126
01:42:47,640 --> 01:42:49,600
Speaker 2: we can look at this from twelve different angles and

2127
01:42:49,920 --> 01:42:52,880
Speaker 2: twelve different points of view. We end every episode of

2128
01:42:52,880 --> 01:42:55,000
Speaker 2: On Purpose with a fast five or a final five.

2129
01:42:55,320 --> 01:42:57,360
Speaker 2: These have to be answered in one word to one

2130
01:42:57,439 --> 01:42:58,360
Speaker 2: sentence maximize.

2131
01:42:58,360 --> 01:42:59,760
Speaker 1: Okay, this is very hard for me, as you can

2132
01:42:59,800 --> 01:43:04,200
Speaker 1: tell you my brutal your final should someone to tell

2133
01:43:04,240 --> 01:43:06,040
Speaker 1: you your colleage should taze me? If I be on

2134
01:43:06,080 --> 01:43:09,400
Speaker 1: the sentence, you should why you are here exactly? The

2135
01:43:09,640 --> 01:43:12,840
Speaker 1: first question is what is the best health advice you've

2136
01:43:12,880 --> 01:43:15,920
Speaker 1: ever heard or received? It's what Lindy West said that

2137
01:43:15,920 --> 01:43:19,040
Speaker 1: I quoted before. You can't it's hard to treat well

2138
01:43:19,120 --> 01:43:20,800
Speaker 1: and object you hate. You've got to learn to love

2139
01:43:20,800 --> 01:43:21,240
Speaker 1: your body.

2140
01:43:21,840 --> 01:43:24,360
Speaker 2: That's great advice. I love that. One second question, what

2141
01:43:24,479 --> 01:43:27,679
Speaker 2: is the worst advice health advice you've ever heard or received?

2142
01:43:27,800 --> 01:43:31,600
Speaker 1: I went to an Austrian diet clinic in clarg and

2143
01:43:31,680 --> 01:43:36,000
Speaker 1: Fort where they made me eat nothing but tea for

2144
01:43:36,120 --> 01:43:38,440
Speaker 1: like days and days and days.

2145
01:43:39,040 --> 01:43:42,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, not good advice, yeah, just tea. Exactly how did

2146
01:43:42,560 --> 01:43:43,439
Speaker 2: that end up? Tell us?

2147
01:43:43,479 --> 01:43:45,720
Speaker 1: I was surrounded by people I would go like, so

2148
01:43:45,760 --> 01:43:47,960
Speaker 1: there were people there who'd have been there for like

2149
01:43:48,000 --> 01:43:50,640
Speaker 1: three weeks, and they were on the tea diet, and

2150
01:43:50,680 --> 01:43:52,320
Speaker 1: I said, how do you feel? And they said terrible.

2151
01:43:52,360 --> 01:43:54,680
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, you're gonna die. I felt like

2152
01:43:54,720 --> 01:43:57,200
Speaker 1: Jack Nicholson did what over the cookers there, flung out

2153
01:43:57,280 --> 01:43:59,759
Speaker 1: it's gonna buy a bratfirst? Not their own.

2154
01:44:01,280 --> 01:44:06,040
Speaker 2: Question Number three, what's something that surprised you about this

2155
01:44:06,160 --> 01:44:07,880
Speaker 2: journey that you went on with the magic pill?

2156
01:44:09,160 --> 01:44:11,760
Speaker 1: How hard it is, how complicated it's not. I'm not

2157
01:44:11,800 --> 01:44:16,280
Speaker 1: normally such an even handed person. It's really complicated, and

2158
01:44:16,320 --> 01:44:17,280
Speaker 1: that surprised you.

2159
01:44:17,280 --> 01:44:18,360
Speaker 2: You would be a lot more clear.

2160
01:44:18,600 --> 01:44:20,559
Speaker 1: I thought every other book I've ever written, I've come

2161
01:44:20,600 --> 01:44:22,720
Speaker 1: to a more firm conclusion at the end than this.

2162
01:44:23,320 --> 01:44:24,880
Speaker 1: You know, with this, it's sort of like you've really

2163
01:44:24,880 --> 01:44:26,040
Speaker 1: got to go down the list of the risk and

2164
01:44:26,040 --> 01:44:28,320
Speaker 1: benefits for yourself, and it will really help you to

2165
01:44:28,320 --> 01:44:32,000
Speaker 1: know all these risk and benefits. But I can't tell

2166
01:44:32,040 --> 01:44:33,840
Speaker 1: you at the end. And now, dear reader, do it

2167
01:44:33,960 --> 01:44:35,680
Speaker 1: or don't do it? Or do these things? You know,

2168
01:44:35,840 --> 01:44:37,800
Speaker 1: I'm completely failing at these one sentence.

2169
01:44:38,080 --> 01:44:42,479
Speaker 2: That's great, I'm asking you, yes, exactly, angry face when

2170
01:44:42,520 --> 01:44:46,519
Speaker 2: I go to squ is the Number four, if you

2171
01:44:46,560 --> 01:44:48,880
Speaker 2: had to ask people to reflect on three things while

2172
01:44:48,880 --> 01:44:51,640
Speaker 2: they're making their decision. There are many things in the

2173
01:44:51,680 --> 01:44:53,840
Speaker 2: book that they need to read and study, but three

2174
01:44:53,840 --> 01:44:55,720
Speaker 2: things while they're reading the book that you'd like them

2175
01:44:55,760 --> 01:44:57,680
Speaker 2: to reflect on as they're making their own decision. What

2176
01:44:57,680 --> 01:44:59,600
Speaker 2: would they be that are not related to be am

2177
01:44:59,640 --> 01:45:03,200
Speaker 2: I or or some of those more tactical elements and

2178
01:45:03,240 --> 01:45:06,759
Speaker 2: not attactical those tangible elements you shared with us earlier.

2179
01:45:07,880 --> 01:45:10,400
Speaker 1: Think about what your relationship with food was in your

2180
01:45:10,439 --> 01:45:13,479
Speaker 1: family when you were a child, because all sorts of

2181
01:45:13,520 --> 01:45:15,960
Speaker 1: issues around that will come to the surface in which

2182
01:45:15,960 --> 01:45:18,719
Speaker 1: we haven't touched on, but is really important. Number two

2183
01:45:18,760 --> 01:45:21,439
Speaker 1: is think about how important pleasure in food is for you,

2184
01:45:21,520 --> 01:45:23,880
Speaker 1: because a lot of people experience a huge reduction in it.

2185
01:45:23,920 --> 01:45:26,759
Speaker 1: Although I didn't, a lot of people do. Number three

2186
01:45:26,800 --> 01:45:29,840
Speaker 1: is these drugs might be significantly reducing addiction. This is

2187
01:45:29,920 --> 01:45:33,639
Speaker 1: hugely contested, but there are serious scientists who think they are,

2188
01:45:34,000 --> 01:45:35,719
Speaker 1: and that's the whole dimension when need to think about

2189
01:45:35,760 --> 01:45:38,599
Speaker 1: not just food addiction, but actually like cocaine addiction, ventimal

2190
01:45:38,600 --> 01:45:41,320
Speaker 1: addiction across the board. Those would I guess be the

2191
01:45:41,320 --> 01:45:42,920
Speaker 1: three things that we haven't covered that would be the

2192
01:45:42,920 --> 01:45:44,519
Speaker 1: things I mean, there's about one hundred things from book.

2193
01:45:45,400 --> 01:45:49,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, Yeah, okay, great. Fifth and final question, if

2194
01:45:49,360 --> 01:45:51,920
Speaker 2: you could create one law that everyone in the world

2195
01:45:51,920 --> 01:45:53,400
Speaker 2: had to follow, what would it be?

2196
01:45:53,680 --> 01:46:01,240
Speaker 1: Oh, one law? Can I get rid of a law?

2197
01:46:01,320 --> 01:46:03,000
Speaker 2: Be the first person to do. I love it.

2198
01:46:03,280 --> 01:46:05,720
Speaker 1: The law I would get rid of would be the

2199
01:46:05,760 --> 01:46:08,519
Speaker 1: criminalization of addiction. You know a lot of addiction in

2200
01:46:08,520 --> 01:46:13,800
Speaker 1: my family. Punishing people we've got addiction problems makes the

2201
01:46:13,800 --> 01:46:17,320
Speaker 1: problem worse. Most of the money we spend on drug

2202
01:46:17,320 --> 01:46:24,599
Speaker 1: policy in this country is shaming, humiliating, and literally caging

2203
01:46:24,840 --> 01:46:27,880
Speaker 1: people with addiction problems. In Portugal, when they took all

2204
01:46:27,880 --> 01:46:30,120
Speaker 1: that money they spent on putting people in prison, shaming

2205
01:46:30,160 --> 01:46:32,720
Speaker 1: them and humiliating them, and spent it instead on like

2206
01:46:32,920 --> 01:46:38,400
Speaker 1: helping them, addiction massively fell. Deaths massively fell. We could

2207
01:46:38,400 --> 01:46:41,080
Speaker 1: do the same and we'd get the same results. So

2208
01:46:41,120 --> 01:46:44,559
Speaker 1: it would be I guess, take the current law on

2209
01:46:44,800 --> 01:46:49,000
Speaker 1: criminalizing addiction and drug use more generally and transfer all

2210
01:46:49,000 --> 01:46:50,439
Speaker 1: that money to helping people instead.

2211
01:46:51,120 --> 01:46:53,360
Speaker 2: Brilliant. You're the first person ever to get get rid.

2212
01:46:53,240 --> 01:46:56,479
Speaker 1: Of the law. Normally, so libertarian, but there I go.

2213
01:46:57,240 --> 01:46:59,360
Speaker 2: Every one. The book is called the Magic Bill, the

2214
01:46:59,400 --> 01:47:03,040
Speaker 2: extraordinary benefits and disturbing risks of the new weight loss drugs.

2215
01:47:03,120 --> 01:47:05,360
Speaker 2: Yohan Hari, thank you so much. Make sure you go

2216
01:47:05,680 --> 01:47:08,599
Speaker 2: and grab and order a copy right now. I really

2217
01:47:08,640 --> 01:47:11,799
Speaker 2: want this make this the book of your book clubs,

2218
01:47:11,920 --> 01:47:14,080
Speaker 2: the book that you're reading with your friends, your family.

2219
01:47:14,120 --> 01:47:16,760
Speaker 2: I think it will. As Johan said, there's so many

2220
01:47:16,760 --> 01:47:18,479
Speaker 2: parts of it that we didn't even get to cover.

2221
01:47:18,560 --> 01:47:20,640
Speaker 2: I hope you'll come back and we'll dissect it a

2222
01:47:20,680 --> 01:47:23,320
Speaker 2: second time. But I really believe that this book is

2223
01:47:23,600 --> 01:47:28,599
Speaker 2: so significantly important at this time, especially and especially for

2224
01:47:28,960 --> 01:47:32,599
Speaker 2: the younger generations to follow, so highly highly recommend Magic

2225
01:47:32,640 --> 01:47:36,599
Speaker 2: Pill that I really mean it.

2226
01:47:36,720 --> 01:47:38,679
Speaker 1: I feel quite emotional here you said that, thank youself.

2227
01:47:38,800 --> 01:47:41,360
Speaker 2: Really mean it. I think there's so many things, like

2228
01:47:41,400 --> 01:47:43,240
Speaker 2: you said, that we still haven't covered, and I hope

2229
01:47:43,280 --> 01:47:46,479
Speaker 2: you'll come back to do those anytime, because Yeah, I

2230
01:47:47,280 --> 01:47:50,160
Speaker 2: think this is it's it's the biggest thing right now,

2231
01:47:50,200 --> 01:47:53,160
Speaker 2: and especially with the way you've dived into it, when

2232
01:47:53,160 --> 01:47:55,680
Speaker 2: you're talking about just the amount of stigma there is

2233
01:47:55,720 --> 01:48:00,280
Speaker 2: from day one, and it seems to never go, like

2234
01:48:00,360 --> 01:48:03,439
Speaker 2: you said, even with Oprah, like whether you're here or

2235
01:48:03,479 --> 01:48:08,120
Speaker 2: you're here, it's like that experience of that stigma doesn't disappear.

2236
01:48:08,600 --> 01:48:10,639
Speaker 2: And so if you're living with that for your whole

2237
01:48:10,680 --> 01:48:14,920
Speaker 2: life and it was created by a system, that that

2238
01:48:15,040 --> 01:48:16,800
Speaker 2: needs to be addressed, and I think you're addressing it

2239
01:48:17,040 --> 01:48:18,800
Speaker 2: in a really deep and profound way. So thank you.

2240
01:48:18,880 --> 01:48:21,040
Speaker 1: I think I meant to say, my lovely publicist is

2241
01:48:21,040 --> 01:48:22,599
Speaker 1: in the corner, so sure taze me if I don't

2242
01:48:22,640 --> 01:48:25,840
Speaker 1: say this that anyone who wants to know anything more

2243
01:48:25,880 --> 01:48:27,960
Speaker 1: about the book can go to magic pillbook dot com

2244
01:48:28,000 --> 01:48:30,479
Speaker 1: than get the audiobook, which I read the e book

2245
01:48:30,600 --> 01:48:33,800
Speaker 1: physical book, And I think I'm meant to say you

2246
01:48:33,800 --> 01:48:35,479
Speaker 1: can get it from good bookshops or good bookshops, but

2247
01:48:35,479 --> 01:48:38,200
Speaker 1: you coul also get it from shilly book shops as well.

2248
01:48:38,479 --> 01:48:44,400
Speaker 1: Never understood that like a quality. So let's go order

2249
01:48:44,439 --> 01:48:45,080
Speaker 1: some KFC on.

2250
01:48:47,280 --> 01:48:51,599
Speaker 2: Weve got some for you and bring you hope buckets

2251
01:48:51,640 --> 01:48:54,920
Speaker 2: a k I hope that served you, you felt, I

2252
01:48:54,920 --> 01:48:57,679
Speaker 2: hope you felt You've got to share what you wanted

2253
01:48:57,680 --> 01:49:00,360
Speaker 2: to show. Thanks everyone, Thank you. If if you love

2254
01:49:00,400 --> 01:49:04,160
Speaker 2: this episode, you'll enjoy my conversation with Megan Trainer on

2255
01:49:04,320 --> 01:49:08,200
Speaker 2: breaking generational trauma and how to be confident from the

2256
01:49:08,280 --> 01:49:11,000
Speaker 2: inside out. My therapist told me stand in the mirror

2257
01:49:11,240 --> 01:49:13,600
Speaker 2: naked for five minutes. It was already tough for me

2258
01:49:13,640 --> 01:49:15,840
Speaker 2: to love my body, but after the C section scar

2259
01:49:16,160 --> 01:49:18,679
Speaker 2: with all the stretch marks. Now I'm looking at myself

2260
01:49:18,720 --> 01:49:21,400
Speaker 2: like I've been hacked. But day three, when I did it,

2261
01:49:21,439 --> 01:49:23,320
Speaker 2: I was like, you know what, her thighs are cute