1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to it could happen here. Yes, 2 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:10,399 Speaker 1: I still sound like this. It was the same day 3 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: for me, but thank you for joining me again. Today 4 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: is part two of a conversation I'm having with Amy 5 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:23,639 Speaker 1: Wine Traub about Antizionism and why it's important. And today 6 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: I want to talk about their work and how much 7 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: of anti siism is actually based in ancestral healing. And yeah, 8 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:34,839 Speaker 1: I want to just tell you guys a bunch of 9 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: good stuff because AMI's work I think is really important. 10 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: So welcome back, Hi, thanks for having me. Hello. Of course, 11 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,319 Speaker 1: I think when we first started talking about wanting to 12 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: record together, you mentioned that talking about ancestral healing was 13 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,959 Speaker 1: really integral and even your definition of anti Zionism, could 14 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: you kind of explain why? 15 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 2: Sure, Yeah, I feel like me mean, it's also the 16 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 2: other way around, like my coming into like anti Zionism 17 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 2: led me into a path of ancestral healing, because I 18 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 2: think something that we talked about, like in the last episode, 19 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 2: is that a lot of the motivation for at least 20 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 2: like the early origins of Zionism was the desire for 21 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:26,400 Speaker 2: safety and the desire to like have cultural expression, like 22 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,960 Speaker 2: Jewish cultural expression be possible, and so I started to think, 23 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 2: like why were those the desires of the time, and 24 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 2: sort of moving back into my family's history, which so 25 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 2: much of it has been like silenced because of like 26 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 2: the pain of the history, and also in some ways 27 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,279 Speaker 2: because you've been told, you know, like you have a place, 28 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 2: you have the home you live in now, and you 29 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 2: have the state of Israel and you don't have to 30 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 2: think about where you came from before, know, And so 31 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 2: a lot of my work has been kind of like 32 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 2: opening up that conversation of like, but where where did 33 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 2: my great grandparents like actually come from? Like what was 34 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 2: that place? Why do they leave? What is the longing 35 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 2: that we have for safety long than we have for home, 36 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 2: And what does it look like to actually turn that 37 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 2: longing back to yeah, for my family like our homes 38 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 2: in Eastern Europe, And that's kind of where I've been 39 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 2: positioning a lot of my work these days. 40 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you bring up a good point about 41 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: how even having Israel there almost eRASS like the the 42 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:41,359 Speaker 1: history of a lot of Jewish people, right, because it 43 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 1: kind of just like, yeah, it's almost as if like, oh, 44 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: this is where we all come from, and this is 45 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 1: where we all end up and it's just simply not true. 46 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,359 Speaker 1: Can you tell me, well, first, could you define ancestral 47 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: healing to me? And like what that means to you? 48 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 2: I feel like for me and social healing has been 49 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 2: the process of opening up to the voices of my 50 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 2: ancestors and allowing them to really speak to me, and 51 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 2: starting to see that like the pain and the grief 52 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 2: and yeah, just the sorrow that I was carrying in 53 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 2: my own body wasn't just my own. Yeah, And that 54 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 2: sort of growing awareness has become like the avenue to 55 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 2: which I can do ancestral healing, which sometimes looks like 56 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,639 Speaker 2: learning a ton about like a specific Jewish practice that 57 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 2: perhaps someone in my family at some point did and 58 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 2: we've now forgotten. Or sometimes it looks like researching on Wikipedia, 59 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 2: like the flowers that grew in my family's like Stuttle 60 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 2: in Eastern Europe. And sometimes it looks like just crying 61 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 2: and being sad about like the things that we've lost. 62 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 2: And sometimes it looks like talking to my ancestors, like 63 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 2: in meditation or trance states, and offering them back the 64 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 2: healing that I'm doing in this generation. 65 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. I love especially the flowers I 66 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 1: think really got me. Just like those little details are 67 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: so important and really defined a place. I mean, I 68 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: think it's essentual healing is so important for like most 69 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 1: people in general. I think it's kind of taken maybe 70 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: not taken too seriously by some normies. I don't know, 71 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 1: but even for me, I mean, our histories are very different. 72 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: But I think what you've said about like recognizing that, 73 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: like your pain is not just your own, like you're 74 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:51,679 Speaker 1: carrying a lot of a bird in generation from generation 75 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 1: to generation. And I think acknowledging that and learning more 76 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: about yourself anyone can do that you don't. It doesn't 77 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: have to be a certain I don't know. I think 78 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 1: that's what I always kind of want to get across that, Like, 79 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: even for me, I found ancestral healings to be really important. 80 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: I define it in a different way, but it's still 81 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: like I don't know a lot about my family's history, 82 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: so that's been a little bit like A huge origin 83 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: of that is because like there's a lot of confusion there. 84 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: But I love that you are taking as like an 85 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 1: internal journey and also like recognizing that there's a connection there. 86 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 1: I think people don't look at it as much as 87 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 1: I want them to. I guess I think it's a 88 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: little bit too petty for people, and it really isn't. 89 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: It's just about like evolving and knowing yourself better, like 90 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: when you really when it really comes down to it, totally. 91 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and for me too, like so like a lot 92 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,479 Speaker 2: of in my book, I talk a lot about like 93 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 2: birch trees and the flowers that grow in this places 94 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 2: of my ancestors were in, like the lakes and the frogs, 95 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 2: and and a big reason for that too is because 96 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 2: like my ancestors aren't there anymore, Like there are no 97 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 2: more like Jewish people. 98 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: In those places necessarily to like tell the story. 99 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 2: So when I think about, like how do I really 100 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 2: learn about who my ancestors were or what their practices 101 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 2: and their culture was, It's like, oh, at least I 102 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,039 Speaker 2: can see what they saw, you know. I can see 103 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 2: the trees, I can see the frogs, and the land 104 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 2: is holding that story for me if I can just 105 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,679 Speaker 2: open up and listen to it. So that's also been 106 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 2: like part of it for me as well as like 107 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 2: opening up like opportunity for like connection and joy even 108 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:46,840 Speaker 2: in the face of a lot of destruction. And again 109 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 2: also like you're saying, I really think this is something 110 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 2: that like most people can do and is really enriching 111 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 2: and would help us like all kind of metabolize like 112 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 2: so much of what has happened in the twentieth century. 113 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 2: Before the twentieth century, just like there's been so much 114 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 2: like disruption and violence like that's happened for so many people. Yeah, 115 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 2: and still happening obviously, and in America, in like the 116 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 2: dominant American culture, I think there's like a really big 117 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 2: emphasis on like forgetting and just kind of being in 118 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 2: this like present moment and not realizing that we've come 119 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 2: from somewhere. 120 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: And I just really resist that. 121 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 2: That like urge to forget, and I for me, that's 122 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 2: also part of ancestral healing is like how do we 123 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 2: learn to remember? 124 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that so much. 125 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 2: Now. 126 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: I think the thing that really made me realize that 127 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: es cecral healing is extremely real and necessary was maybe 128 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: like a a how long ago, was maybe like ten 129 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: years ago. I learned something about a family member that 130 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: really put into context something that I was going through 131 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: and that I have always felt and just part with 132 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: who I am. And I'm being vague about it because 133 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: it's just personal. But we could talk off Mike if 134 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: you want, but for audience purposes. The point that I'm 135 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: trying to get across is I learned something, and I 136 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: learned more about myself, and I was almost more at 137 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: peace with how much I was struggling with what it was. 138 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: And I let myself be okay with how much I 139 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: was struggling and the pain I was carrying because I 140 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: recognized it wasn't just mine, it was it was hers. 141 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: So yeah, I think if you ask me what the 142 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: whole point of life is, it's self. Maybe not improvements 143 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:42,439 Speaker 1: the right word, but like self discovery and like I 144 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: don't know nature and leaving a place better than you 145 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: found it. I think it's as simple as that. I 146 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 1: think it gets really convoluted with other things. But yeah, 147 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 1: as you said, I think anyone could benefit from learning 148 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: more because I agree. I think. Well you said about 149 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: forgetting really resonated with me. 150 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 2: So yeah, really like that, and like America has built unforgetting, 151 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 2: like we're supposed to forget, like the genocide of indigenous 152 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,559 Speaker 2: peoples on this land we're supposed to forget, like the 153 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 2: horrors of slavery. We're supposed to just forget, like even 154 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 2: what's happening right now in our country. So I think 155 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 2: the act of remembering is like has so much power 156 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 2: to shake like the current moment and to bring us 157 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 2: to a new place. 158 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: It's ironic that like the biggest slogan of one of 159 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: America's most tragic events is don't forget when about Yeah, totally, 160 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: it's like, oh, this is the one thing you're gonna say, Yeah, 161 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: let's forget about everything else though, totally. 162 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's such like that's our memory. Like, And 163 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 2: in Germany they do have a lot about like memory culture. 164 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 2: That's like a really like specific term that they have 165 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 2: and like we don't even have that. 166 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, we wouldn't even have that term here in the US. Wait, 167 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: can you explain that to me a little bit if 168 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: you if you know about it. 169 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 2: So Germany does have like a big like culture around 170 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 2: like remembering the atrocities of the Holocaust, right, and they 171 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 2: call it like memory culture. So that's like monuments or 172 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 2: museums just like how is like World War two discussed? 173 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: How is the Holocaust remembered? And yeah, like they remember 174 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: a lot more than we do, which is ironic and 175 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 1: also not in some ways. 176 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 2: But yeah, we don't even have that concept here in 177 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 2: the same way of like memory culture, like what is 178 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 2: our cultural of remembering? And and I think obviously there 179 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 2: has been some amount of that around, like yeah, like 180 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 2: indigenous history and like Black history in relation to like 181 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 2: monuments and Thanksgiving and like all of those things, but 182 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 2: we don't have like really like memory culture like integrated 183 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 2: into like a day to day existence, and in fact 184 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:14,559 Speaker 2: it's obviously being even fought against, like in Florida and 185 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 2: other places like that. Oh, I just love that that 186 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:21,839 Speaker 2: idea of memory culture in general. I've never heard of 187 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 2: that love that so much. And I mean just even 188 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 2: thinking about it, just as we're talking Germany, has they 189 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 2: refuse to forget an atrocity that they did, right? I 190 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 2: think it's it's a little bit interesting that in America 191 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 2: they've forgotten about the atrocities they did and they want 192 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 2: to not forget about an atrocity that was done to them. 193 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 2: So it's almost like very victimy of America if you 194 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 2: ask me, because it's really easy not to forget when 195 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 2: someone wronged you, but I think it's really convenient to 196 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 2: forget when you, you know, destroy the entire civilization you 197 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:08,079 Speaker 2: know what I mean to put it lightly exactly, and 198 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 2: I'm not trying to say to take nine to eleven 199 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 2: lightly at all. 200 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: I think what happened was atrocious and terrible. But when 201 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: you think about memory culture and what Germany is so 202 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: committed to remembering versus America, just a little interesting to 203 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: me now that I think about it, and who committed 204 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: who or who committed what? Rather. Yeah, before I get 205 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: rid to Rambley, let's take our first break and we'll 206 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: be right back, and we're back with Amy. Amy. When 207 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: we were talking about recording together, in addition to ancestral healing, 208 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: you talked about the importance of building a diasporus Jewish 209 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 1: community that has committed to solidarity with Palestinians and other 210 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 1: marginalized people, generally through an anarchist lens, and also building 211 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 1: a safe community for Jews outside of Israel to counter 212 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: the rhetoric that the only place that's safe for Jews 213 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: is Israel. And as you said, it generally leads to 214 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: a large focused on anti fascism and cultural reclamation. So 215 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: can you talk to me a little bit about that. 216 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: And then there's certain communities that you're a part of 217 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: that I really want to get into, but let's start there. 218 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, so kind of in this journey, I would say 219 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 2: of saying, okay, like if we're going to be Jewish antiesionist, 220 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 2: so we're going to be Jewish anarchists. 221 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: Like what does that materially look like? Like how do we. 222 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 2: Put that into practice? And so yeah, I kind of 223 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 2: honed it on those two aspects again of safety and culture, 224 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 2: and so a lot of my work now is around 225 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 2: thinking about, like how do we create safety for Jews 226 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 2: in the place is where they are living in diaspora, 227 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 2: development into like growing to this like Jewish antigonism and 228 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 2: Jewish anarchism, trying to understand like what does it mean 229 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 2: to like actually put this into practice, and or when 230 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 2: I was thinking of that, I was trying to think of, 231 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 2: like how do we create safety for Jews in the 232 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 2: places where they want to live in diaspora and also 233 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 2: create the environment where Jewish culture is able to flourish. 234 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 2: And that's led me, like you said, to developing and 235 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 2: supporting and working with a lot of Jewish communities that 236 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 2: are like committed to like anti fascism, committed to solidarity 237 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 2: with other marginalized peoples, and also really committed to like 238 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 2: reclamation of Jewish traditions, specifically by like more marginalized people 239 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 2: within the Jewish community as well. And I really see 240 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 2: like those projects as like part of my like solidarity work, 241 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 2: even though it supporting like Jewish peoples in the day 242 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 2: to day, but ultimately it's creating a spaciousness where Jews 243 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 2: don't feel like they have to like cling on to 244 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 2: Zionism in the ways that they were before. And I'm 245 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 2: really curious also of like how to sort of make 246 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 2: that practice more visible to the general left, because I 247 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 2: do like a big part of like the book I'm writing, 248 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 2: like there's a whole section of me talking about what 249 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 2: it's like to have lived in Pittsburgh like before and 250 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 2: after the Tree of Life shooting, where I was a 251 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 2: teacher at the synagogue at the time that had happened. 252 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 2: So my life was like very impacted by this like 253 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 2: really like horrible like active violence, like antisemitic violence. And 254 00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 2: the most shocking part was that like anti Semitism was 255 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 2: occurring before that happened, and it still continued after. 256 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: Like in Pittsburgh specifically, So like the question left me 257 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 1: with is like. 258 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 2: Are we actually addressing like the rise of anti Semitism 259 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 2: in America today, And that's why I want to like 260 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 2: really talk about this praxis of like addressing anti Semitism 261 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 2: and allowing in creating space where Jewish culture can flourish, 262 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 2: like as a practice that I'm curious for more people 263 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 2: on the left to understand as like vitally important like 264 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 2: for Jewish people and also for solidarity with Palestinians too. 265 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 2: So that's that's my topic that I'm very interested in 266 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 2: right now. 267 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: No, I love that. I think it's so important what 268 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: you're saying and so necessary to build a community where 269 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: Jewish people feel safe that so yeah, exactly, they don't 270 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: have to go on to Zionism as a way to 271 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:06,360 Speaker 1: feel accepted or safe or belonged or have belonging anywhere. 272 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: And in that way, it's it's really simple to see 273 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: how that is intertwined with solidarity of the Palestinians, because 274 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: it ultimately is saying like Israel is all the end, 275 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: all be all, Like we're at the end of the day, 276 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: people going through shit have we have our cultures and 277 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: we have to stick by each other. Maybe that's a 278 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 1: little bit elementary, but I think what I'm trying to say, 279 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 1: is I really appreciate that you have built this community 280 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: and are so committed to continuing to enrich it and 281 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 1: develop it, because I think that's so essential, especially just 282 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 1: considering like the idea of Zionism in the first place, 283 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: Like that really pure intention that was there. I think 284 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: it's okay to still live on in certain areas because 285 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: it was pure. It was about Israel at all, Israel 286 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:05,400 Speaker 1: as it is today rather Yeah, so can you tell 287 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:09,400 Speaker 1: me about this organization Rage? Yeah? 288 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:14,400 Speaker 2: So, Rage is this small collective called that CRADEM stands 289 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 2: for Rebellious Anarchists Young Jews. In the most basic sense, 290 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 2: we formed this as like a sort of response to 291 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 2: like the Zionism that we were experiencing around us, and 292 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 2: a lot of it, like the word rage being like 293 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 2: anger of like wow, I can't believe, like this is 294 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 2: what's being sold to us as like our liberation. And 295 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 2: what it formed into was like after the Tree of 296 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 2: Life shooting my sibling pretty much text memes like let's 297 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 2: make this thing happen again, and we started to create 298 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 2: like more like political like Jewish anarchist like art and 299 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 2: writing and putting it out on Facebook, and people started 300 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 2: responding to it and it really felt like a piece 301 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 2: of like the rising of like a Jewish anarchist movement 302 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 2: in this country right now, a piece of many, but 303 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 2: something that kind of was like a light or like 304 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 2: what's the phrase, like like a bat signal is the 305 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 2: only way I can put it of. Like, hey, like 306 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 2: all of you out there who are thinking about like 307 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 2: what Jewish anarchism might mean, are thinking about like what 308 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 2: like organizing could look like when it's based on our 309 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 2: culture and our practices and has like deep reverence for 310 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 2: that instead of like an embarrassment around our practices. All 311 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 2: of you who are like creative and artistic and that's 312 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 2: your mode of engagement, of engaging like we can come 313 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 2: together and we can like create something new, and that 314 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 2: has just like that desire has just grown since then 315 00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 2: and it's being reflected and so much organizing right now. 316 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 2: Enrage itself is like not we're not really doing as 317 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 2: much as a collective anymore, but definitely that spirit is 318 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 2: like living on in a lot of like in the 319 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 2: book I'm writing, and like the work that my sibling's doing, 320 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 2: and in a lot of like the artistic creation that's 321 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 2: happening around Jewish anarchism. 322 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 1: I love that. That's so cool. I'm really grateful that 323 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: out of something so horrific that you went through, you 324 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: were able to come together with your sibling and almost 325 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: use that as fuel to really come together. I think 326 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: it's really beautiful. 327 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's like that felt like the 328 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 2: challenge in that moment was like, are we gonna use 329 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 2: this as a moment to like support the police who 330 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 2: you know, killed the shooter. We're going to use us 331 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,120 Speaker 2: a moment to like buddy up with the politicians who 332 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 2: are trying to like befriend the Jewish community now all 333 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 2: of a sudden, Or are we going to use as 334 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 2: a moment, like a big phrase that was thrown around 335 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,199 Speaker 2: in Pittsburgh was like safety and solidarity, or we're going 336 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 2: to use as a moment to really affirm that message 337 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 2: and to really like speak to the danger that we 338 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,959 Speaker 2: are feeling as Jews in this country and the resilience 339 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 2: that we have and the resistance and the revolutionary power 340 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 2: we have to like sort of call out the systems 341 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 2: that are creating that. And I'm really grateful, yeah, that 342 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 2: my sibling and others around me were able to like 343 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 2: create that path through a more revolutionary mode. 344 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh, it's important. Especially, Yeah, you don't want to 345 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 1: see your community use as a tool for politics. I 346 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: think having that be a product of such a tragedy 347 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: is shameful, and so fighting against that, I think is 348 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: really necessary to maintain a sense of like reality, to 349 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 1: be honest, like and not get caught up in like 350 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: whatever reality I don't know, politicians or the media or 351 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 1: whatever the shit wants you to believe in. Yeah. 352 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:11,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, So a few years after rage kind of continued 353 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 2: to grow, I was able to found this community center 354 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 2: called ret Zone Center for Healing and Resistance in Pittsburgh. 355 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 2: And it's a queer Jewish anarchist community center, the only 356 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 2: one believe it or not in the US. 357 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 1: Maybe it's the world, but also sad, you know what 358 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: I mean, Like I love it, I also have disappointed it. 359 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 2: Yes, And it was like obviously a lot of community support, 360 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 2: like like i'd say, like I founded it, but it 361 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 2: was more like I had the ability to like kind 362 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 2: of pulled people together, pull together a space, get grant money, 363 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 2: like do that type of work. And the idea is 364 00:22:55,880 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 2: really like when we are like in political struggle, we 365 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 2: need to resist, but we also need to heal. And 366 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:09,920 Speaker 2: I think I was just also feeling like a lot 367 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 2: And this was like in twenty nineteen ish, So the 368 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 2: like integration of like healing and more like therapeutic techniques 369 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 2: I felt like into like political frameworks like wasn't happening 370 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 2: as much at the time as I think it is 371 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 2: now even and just really claiming like we can't do 372 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 2: political work without like our like healing work, and again 373 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 2: like that creating a space where we could engage in 374 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 2: like anti fascists organizing, we could engage in solidarity with 375 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 2: other like marginalized people, and we could also really honor 376 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 2: Jewish tradition and let that be like a foundation for us. 377 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 2: And yeah, I ended up leaving the community this time 378 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 2: last year to like pursue other things, but it still 379 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 2: is existing in Pittsburgh. Are gonna still like very much 380 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 2: like a a hub for not just Jewish people too, 381 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 2: but like a lot of people who are engaging in 382 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 2: you and resistance work. 383 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just I love that it exists. And also 384 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: just I was thinking, actually I'm gonna hold that thought 385 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: and I want to take our second break. Are you 386 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 1: gonna have to cut back and see what I was 387 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: gonna say? So enjoy these ads, Okay, we're back. I 388 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 1: had a coffee bit and now I'm back. I was 389 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 1: going to say that I love that all those things 390 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: can be true at the same time, like Jewish solidarity 391 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 1: and Palestinian solidarity, and remembering and practicing like traditional rituals 392 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: and culture and traditions and practices and all this stuff. 393 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: I think it's nice to remember that all of those 394 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: can be true at the same time, because I think, 395 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: especially now, people identify anti Zionism with anti Semitism, and 396 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: I think it's really important to see a community of 397 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: Jewish people like embracing their religion and culture and loving 398 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,640 Speaker 1: it and at the same time supporting Palestine, because it's 399 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 1: just the clearest example of how Zionism is not a 400 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: factor and your love of your culture and your religion. 401 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: I think it's a really good example of just I 402 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,159 Speaker 1: don't know, demonstrating how much of a falsity that is 403 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: in the first place, to equate those two together when 404 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: really Zionism itself is anti Semitic, as we mentioned in 405 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: the last episode. I also want to give us plenty 406 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: of time to talk about your work, and as much 407 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:52,880 Speaker 1: as you want to tell us about your new book 408 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: to the ghosts who are Still Living. It's out and 409 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,880 Speaker 1: now everybody go get it. It's a book of essays 410 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: and yeah, can you if you want to tell me 411 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: how you came about even starting to write these essays 412 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 1: and like what motivated you to embark on this journey. 413 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 2: Yes, So I just came out today with this book 414 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 2: to the Ghost Tour Still Living, and it's my first 415 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 2: book that I've written, and it's pretty much a collection 416 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 2: of essays that is broken up into three sections. The 417 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 2: first section is like stories of my ancestors in Eastern 418 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 2: Europe and their lives and them coming to America and 419 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 2: like that process. The second section is my stories of 420 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 2: living in Pittsburgh during the rise of antiseptism. And the 421 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 2: third section is returning back to my ancestors Shuttle, which 422 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 2: the village in Lithuania last summer with my sister and 423 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 2: kind of yeah, grappling with these questions of. 424 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 1: Like do I belong here? Like what is this land? 425 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 1: Where am I? Like where do I Where can I 426 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: be in the world? 427 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 2: So I guess like the clearest moment of when I 428 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 2: felt like I needed to write this was during the 429 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 2: summer of twenty twenty and there was an incident that 430 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 2: I write about in the book of Nazis coming to 431 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 2: like the anarchist bookstore in Pittsburgh, which was like a 432 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,679 Speaker 2: few blocks from my house at the time, and they 433 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 2: were I don't even remember like exactly what their posters said, 434 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:32,200 Speaker 2: but they were handing out these like anti anarchists posters 435 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 2: that like probably had something anti Semitic on them also 436 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 2: or just like that vibe was there and they were 437 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 2: just flying, and the cops came up and shook hands 438 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 2: with these Nazis and let them stay. 439 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 1: Wow and but sail out exactly. 440 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 2: And then the Nazis actually ended up pulling a gun 441 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 2: on some of the anti fascist protesters who were there 442 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 2: and didn't actually end up like shooting anyone, but. 443 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 1: That was the scene of what had happened. But still 444 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: the fact that that he whoever that was able to 445 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: do that in the cops were like Anyboddy, yeah exactly, 446 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: just to make it more clear how shit the cops are. 447 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 2: Totally and so yeah, I just witnessed that all happen, 448 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 2: and it just kind of felt like the last the 449 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,920 Speaker 2: last straw, I guess, the last thing, and I just 450 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 2: felt like kind of ripped open inside realizing that the 451 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 2: anti Semitism that I had been researching, like in my 452 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:41,479 Speaker 2: own family's. 453 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: History was like happening right now, like to me in 454 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 1: this moment, and I just. 455 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 2: Had this feeling that like I was like, I don't 456 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 2: know if people on the left or people in general 457 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 2: are like really seeing what's happening, you know, really like 458 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 2: understanding like the fear that I have, like as a 459 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 2: Jewish person right now, And I'm not sure if people 460 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 2: are like understanding that connection to like the contemporary fascism 461 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 2: that's happening in the US, to the fascism that my 462 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 2: ancestors experienced. 463 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: And it made me really sad, and it made. 464 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 2: Me like really feel so much pain because I just 465 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 2: didn't want my family stories to be like forgotten or 466 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 2: not to be remembered in this moment when I think 467 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 2: we're trying to understand what's happening in this country, and 468 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 2: like my family has already gone through a lot of 469 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 2: what's happened, you know. Yeah, yeah, and we're being attacked 470 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 2: now in that way. 471 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: I mean, as far as our history books go, an 472 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: dis Semitism ended when all of as ended, right exactly 473 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: so in the US like saved the day. Yeah, and 474 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 1: now exactly. I think that's literally the narrative that a 475 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: lot of people believe in this in this country, which 476 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: is so unfortunate because it just, yeah, it's so what 477 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: incidents like this happen. It's not just like out of 478 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: the blue. It's because there's this lingering hatred and fascism 479 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 1: that's been there and just growing and evolving and going undetected. 480 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: Even though it's so obvious, it's just become I don't know, 481 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: maybe I was gonna say more subtle, but at this 482 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: point it's subtle at all. They're very outright about it, 483 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: but I think it's like almost become like normalized, just 484 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: exactly exactly. But no, I thank you for sharing that, uh, 485 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: And I mean I can imagine that potentially this book 486 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 1: was like maybe healthy process or like heal a little 487 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: bit yourself that that happened definitely. 488 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like at a certain point I was writing these 489 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 2: essays and I was like, I don't even need to 490 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 2: do anything with this, Like this has been like the 491 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 2: most healing project that I've already done, and so like, also, 492 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 2: my hope with this book is that the healing that 493 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 2: it's offered me it can offer to others and I've 494 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 2: kind of been thinking of it as like in Jewish myth, 495 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 2: there's like this idea of like a golam or a 496 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 2: gollum that's like this monster created from the Mud with 497 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 2: like the word emmet written on its forehead, which means truth, 498 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 2: and this monster is like raised from the Mud to 499 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 2: protect the Jewish community of Prague against anti Semitism. WHOA, yeah, 500 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 2: it's a really cool story. 501 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: Cool. Yeah. 502 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 2: So I've kind of been like, oh, I wonder if, 503 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 2: like this book can I kind of be like a gollum, 504 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 2: you know, like this kind of anti fascists monster, mud 505 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 2: creature made from words that can like offer healing and 506 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 2: maybe offer some like protection in this moment. So that's 507 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 2: that's my greatest hope for this book right now. 508 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 1: That's first of all about being my monster. I love that, 509 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: Love that for you, and love that for me, love 510 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: it for everybody. It's second, I think that's a beautiful 511 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: intent and I think it one hundred percent will help 512 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: others heal, And even if the person reading it is 513 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: not Jewish, I think it's important to remember and to 514 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: realize that you still have very real fear being a 515 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 1: Jewish person living in America or anywhere else, you know, 516 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 1: because anti Semitism didn't get solved when Hitler shot himself. 517 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: If I'm sorry, guys, And so I think this book 518 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 1: can help a lot of people, and I really encourage 519 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: everyone to go buy it now. We're recording today on 520 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: August first, and today is when it was released, so 521 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 1: by the time you hear it, it'll be out and 522 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: ready to be read. I just highly encourage you to 523 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 1: really dive into Omni's work because it's just so important 524 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: and so healing for everybody. Thank you, of course, I 525 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 1: really appreciate you taking the time to open yourself up, 526 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 1: and because I know a lot of these things have 527 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: really painful origins, and so I appreciate that you're willing 528 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 1: to talk about them. Yeah, thank you. 529 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I also hope that like, yeah, like this 530 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 2: book also can sort of be like a window for 531 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 2: like leftists who want to like integrate more like Jewish 532 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 2: history into their anti fascism, that it can be like 533 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 2: a window for that, And I do hope like also 534 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 2: that it can like also build bridges with like other 535 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 2: peoples who have experienced genocide, experience displacement from lands, experienced 536 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 2: like experience ongoing like fear for their safety where they 537 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 2: are in the world. And I hope it also like 538 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 2: sharing like my family stories that like those bridges can 539 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 2: start to like be built and we can start to 540 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 2: create more community around that shared history as well to really. 541 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: Build strong allyship with the Jewish community. Actually understanding what 542 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,840 Speaker 1: that means and actually understanding what the Jewish community is 543 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: going through and the fears they have. I think that 544 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 1: is where you have to start. So yeah, I just 545 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 1: I'm so glad to have had this conversation and I 546 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,920 Speaker 1: know people will benefit from it, and I one hundred 547 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 1: percent no people will benefit from your book again, that 548 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:36,359 Speaker 1: is to the ghosts who are still living. You can 549 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,840 Speaker 1: buy it now through your publisher, which is Strangers in 550 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:44,880 Speaker 1: a Tangled Wilderness. Nice, and I'll put all the links 551 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 1: in the description of the episodes on these website and 552 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 1: all the good stuff. But yeah, thank you again for 553 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 1: joining me today. I'm going to probably drag you back 554 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,279 Speaker 1: at some point just to continue talking to you because 555 00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 1: you've been lovely. Thank you. Yeah, I'm happy to be 556 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,839 Speaker 1: back on Hell yeah I did a good job. If 557 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 1: you said that, I'm kidding. Do you have any kind 558 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 1: of social media you want people to follow you at 559 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: or just the book I do. Yes, let me look 560 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: at us. I don't get it wrong. I'm really bad 561 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 1: at social media. I'm trying to be better. 562 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 2: Okay, you can also follow me on Instagram Ammy wintrab three. 563 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 2: That's a M I W E, I N T R 564 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 2: A U B and the number three. And I'm, like 565 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 2: I said, like the work I'm doing, I hope is 566 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 2: like conversation starters, is like ways to build connections. So 567 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 2: also this was interesting to you, feel free to like 568 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 2: reach out and say hey and yeah, and my voice 569 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 2: is just like one of many on this topic. And 570 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 2: I hope that yeah, people continue to study and learn 571 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 2: and explore the nuances of of what I've shared today. 572 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: Thank you and a big reason why I wanted to 573 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 1: have these conversations and have them as conversations and stillso 574 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 1: illustrate that it's possible to talk about these these like 575 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 1: Zionism in particular, which is very taboo almost like weird 576 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:12,240 Speaker 1: word to say out loud to a lot of people. 577 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 1: It's really helpful to talk about it casually and openly, 578 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 1: because that's how we're going to understand it. That's how 579 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: we're going to understand the anti Zionism and why Zionism 580 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:23,840 Speaker 1: isn't great right now and all this other stuff. So 581 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 1: I hope that someone took that away and will continue 582 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: to have these conversations in their personal lives, because this 583 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: is just a fucking podcast, you know, but real life 584 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:40,319 Speaker 1: is what matters. So yeah, that's all I have to say. 585 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 1: Thank you again, you are the best, and go buy 586 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 1: AMI's book To the Ghost Source to Living, Go buy 587 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 1: it now. It Could Happen Here as a production of 588 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,839 Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, 589 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 1: visit our website cool zonemedia dot com or check us 590 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,360 Speaker 1: out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 591 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,279 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It could 592 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: Happen Here, updated monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. 593 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.