Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. Welcome to Meren Talks
Speaker 1: Your Money, the personal finance edition of Merin Talks Money.
Speaker 1: In these bonus podcasts, we talk about the best strategies
Speaker 1: for making the most of your money. Now, this episode
Speaker 1: is slightly longer than usual. I'm speaking with Gareth Wilton,
Speaker 1: who's chief vice president at cap Gemini. They publish annually
Speaker 1: a World Wealth Report, which looked at where wealth is
Speaker 1: concentrated and where wealth is growing, why it's growing, and
Speaker 1: who's getting that money. Gareth, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: joining us today. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Great to be a Maren. Thanks for invitation.
Speaker 1: Let's start by talking about this World Wealth Report. It's
Speaker 1: super interesting. It's jams all of fascinating findings. But tell
Speaker 1: me first, how is it put together?
Speaker 3: The cap Gemini World Wealth Report. This is actually the
Speaker 3: twenty ninth edition of this particular industry report that covers
Speaker 3: seventy one countries. When we look at the wealth management
Speaker 3: industry globally, we interview something like six and a half
Speaker 3: thousand high net worth individuals. We also talk to a
Speaker 3: number of wealth management executives across captureminised clients and other
Speaker 3: industry players as well as some of the kind of
Speaker 3: ecosystem by that I mean some of the technology companies
Speaker 3: that specifically support wealth management. And then we talk to
Speaker 3: some of the relationship managers. And again, relationship managers is
Speaker 3: one of the key rules that we talk about in
Speaker 3: our World Wealth Report twenty twenty five in terms of
Speaker 3: the role they have to play and the opportunity that
Speaker 3: is represented to them going forward.
Speaker 1: Okay, so let's start with these six and a half
Speaker 1: thousand people, and that's a lot of people to talk to.
Speaker 1: How are we defining high net worth ultra high networth?
Speaker 1: Who are these people?
Speaker 3: High net worth individual We look at them effectively in
Speaker 3: three classifications. So individuals who have investable assets over a
Speaker 3: million dollars and the millionaire next door marin that we
Speaker 3: all have, we have investible assets between one and five
Speaker 3: million dollars. The next category up, which we call mid
Speaker 3: tier millionaires, is between five and thirty million, and then
Speaker 3: you get into the ultra high net worth individuals with
Speaker 3: investible assets of greater than thirty million US dollars. Fundamentally,
Speaker 3: if you're above a million dollars, you're included in our
Speaker 3: high networth individual discussion.
Speaker 1: And investible assets is liquid cash, so that doesn't include property.
Speaker 3: It doesn't include property, It covers investments that individuals have.
Speaker 3: It obviously includes cash. It obviously includes some crypto currency,
Speaker 3: which is an increasing consideration.
Speaker 1: Okay, you interviewed six and a half thousand. How many
Speaker 1: of these people are there across the board? What percentage
Speaker 1: of the population falls into this bit.
Speaker 3: When we look at high network individuals three categorizations, something
Speaker 3: like two point six percent of the world's population falls
Speaker 3: into this categorization. It does vary by geography. We've seen
Speaker 3: how that variation has evolved because, as I say, we've
Speaker 3: done this report for multiple years, and when we look
Speaker 3: at that two point six percent, six point two fall
Speaker 3: into that ultra high net worth. So six point two
Speaker 3: percent of the two point six percent have had investible
Speaker 3: assets of greater than thirty million dollars.
Speaker 1: Okay, And the richest populations are going to be, presumably
Speaker 1: in the US, where it's not going to be two
Speaker 1: point six percent, it's going to be very significantly higher.
Speaker 3: It is, and when we look at it, when we
Speaker 3: look at the population within North America, seven point three,
Speaker 3: so seven point three percent fall into this high net
Speaker 3: worth individual we look in Asia, it's something like two
Speaker 3: point seven, and we look at Europe it's two point one.
Speaker 1: Can you break that out for the UK at all?
Speaker 3: Not specifically the point I want to make here marinaction,
Speaker 3: let me just clarify that those figures in terms of
Speaker 3: population are in terms of growth.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 3: So when we look at North America, there's seven point
Speaker 3: three percent growth in terms of the high net worth
Speaker 3: individual population. Within Asia Pacific, it's two point seven percent
Speaker 3: growth when we compare twenty four to twenty three, and
Speaker 3: actually in the UK it's two point one percent decline.
Speaker 3: So we've seen a decline in terms of this high
Speaker 3: net worth individual population here in the UK for many
Speaker 3: of the reasons that you would expect. When we look
Speaker 3: at twenty twenty four, it's a year, but North America
Speaker 3: is growing apex growing Europe and the UK we've seen
Speaker 3: a decline.
Speaker 1: Okay, so I decline in Europe as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, indeed, I know you said.
Speaker 1: You all know the reasons for this, but would you
Speaker 1: run us through them so we can just feel miserable
Speaker 1: about them all over again.
Speaker 3: We've seen a fall in terms of the kind of
Speaker 3: return on equity investments and fundamentally the stock market that
Speaker 3: was obviously contributed. We've seen declines in some of the
Speaker 3: investments with regard to private equity, and all of.
Speaker 2: This has contributed to this reduction.
Speaker 1: Okay, interesting, I thought you were going to say that
Speaker 1: that number was falling because people were leaving the UK
Speaker 1: and the EU and taking their investable assets with them
Speaker 1: to go else well, and we've seen a lot of talk,
Speaker 1: for example, about the well of leaving the UK for
Speaker 1: tax reasons. So I'm surprised that you put it down
Speaker 1: to falling returns from their investments, not to actual departures.
Speaker 3: Your point is valid, Marin in terms of the kind
Speaker 3: of globalization of this particular segment of the society. They're
Speaker 3: definitely looking at opportunities to invest globally. They're certainly looking
Speaker 3: at some of the benefits of tax jurisdictions outside.
Speaker 2: Their domestic market.
Speaker 3: In our report this year, we've seen growth in locations
Speaker 3: like Singapore. We've seen growth in locations like Hong Kong,
Speaker 3: the BI seems to be a well known location for
Speaker 3: the relocation of wealth, but also Saudi Arabia.
Speaker 1: We should say, just to be clear, although I think
Speaker 1: probably is clear that this is last year's information, and
Speaker 1: obviously there's been a big change in the way the
Speaker 1: markets have moved so far this.
Speaker 2: Year twenty four versus twenty three. The shift here is
Speaker 2: based on the twenty four data.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about the main theme and one of
Speaker 1: the big themes of this year's report, which is all
Speaker 1: about the great wealth transfer. The number that you put
Speaker 1: in there is there'll be a wealth transfer of eighty
Speaker 1: three point five trillion dollars to a new generation of
Speaker 1: investors or rich people, whatever related called by twenty forty eight.
Speaker 1: And that's that's real money.
Speaker 3: Is a huge shift in wealth from one generation to
Speaker 3: the next, eighty three point five trillion dollars by twenty
Speaker 3: forty eight. Now that twenty forty eight signs a long
Speaker 3: way away, Maren. But actually, when you look at the
Speaker 3: short term, thirty percent of that wealth will actually transfer
Speaker 3: before twenty thirty over the next five years, and a
Speaker 3: further sort of thirty percent transition before twenty thirty five.
Speaker 3: So it's a big number, but it also is an
Speaker 3: imminent consideration for the individuals, obviously, particularly if you're about
Speaker 3: to receive or inherit that wealth. But also it's an
Speaker 3: important consideration for the wealth management organizations in terms of effectively,
Speaker 3: how do they mean relevant to their client's kids generation
Speaker 3: in a way that they've being relevant to their to
Speaker 3: the parents' generation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And one of the interesting things about this is
Speaker 1: the extent to which that wealth, as it's passed down,
Speaker 1: stays in the market and the extent of which it
Speaker 1: is removed for living costs, particularly down at the lower end. Right,
Speaker 1: do you inherit a million dollars or two million dollars
Speaker 1: and you're in your thirties or forties, what are you
Speaker 1: going to do? You're probably going to buy a house
Speaker 1: and maybe paid for school fees, that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: So there is this dynamic where you can't necessarily expect
Speaker 1: that eighty three point five trillion to hang around in
Speaker 1: stock markets and private equity and crypto exactly. You can
Speaker 1: expect it to be taken out for living on dadlie, that.
Speaker 2: Will be the case.
Speaker 3: I think everybody's situation is fundamentally different. However, when we
Speaker 3: look at the gen X to those of us who
Speaker 3: are between there are forty four and fifty nine years
Speaker 3: of age, we have one perception in terms of what
Speaker 3: that inheritance will mean. The millennials the famous millennials who
Speaker 3: are all sort of between their late twenties and early
Speaker 3: forties in twenty twenty five have a different outlook and
Speaker 3: to your point, is very relevant, and Maren, that's where property.
Speaker 2: School fees, lifestyle will be.
Speaker 3: And then you have Gen Z's, which are really only
Speaker 3: teenagers in their early twenties.
Speaker 2: But there also will be a recipient for this wealth.
Speaker 3: So I think we'll see different behaviors depending on the
Speaker 3: generations and obviously by individual, but fundamentally the point we're
Speaker 3: making here is how can the wealth management industry take
Speaker 3: advantage of this transfer but also mitigate the risk that
Speaker 3: it represents because there's a chance that the wealth management
Speaker 3: firms will lose some of those assets.
Speaker 1: Let's put the decumulation point aside for the moment. The
Speaker 1: secondivetic thing, as you say, is this idea that it's
Speaker 1: something of a threat to the wealth management business, partly
Speaker 1: in terms of that flow out, but also in terms
Speaker 1: of the different expectations and needs that the younger generation
Speaker 1: will have. One of the terrifying statistics for wealth management
Speaker 1: companies the put in this report is it eighty one
Speaker 1: percent of those who inherit a likely to shift wealth
Speaker 1: management company within one or two years. Can it really
Speaker 1: be that much? Can people really be that non apathetic?
Speaker 3: I think they can, and that statistics definitely support that
Speaker 3: potential risk. Now, of course, there's things that we can
Speaker 3: all do to mitigate that. You know, do we really
Speaker 3: understand what the inheriting generations want to achieve in terms
Speaker 3: of their objectives? And as I say, the baby boomers
Speaker 3: have somewhat been in a little bit of a wealth
Speaker 3: preservation mindset. I think when we look forward into the millennials,
Speaker 3: it's all about long term growth and that's where some
Speaker 3: of these maybe higher risk assets come into the frame.
Speaker 3: We've talked about cryptocurrencies, We've talked about private equity, you know,
Speaker 3: a movement towards some of these types of investments in
Speaker 3: a portfolio potential consideration. I think this global diversification. I
Speaker 3: think future generations will look at the world in its
Speaker 3: entirety and think, well, quite franky. If they want to
Speaker 3: invest in markets in Asia, they want to invest in
Speaker 3: censors like Singapore, then.
Speaker 2: Again much more open to do so.
Speaker 3: And then thirdly, I think that nature of the services.
Speaker 3: I think our senses and the report very clearly draws
Speaker 3: out that concanerge services, trust planning, property management are willingness
Speaker 3: to have a more encompassing relationship that's not just purely
Speaker 3: based on the scale of your wealth and the growth
Speaker 3: of that particular portfolio, but with a set of cervices
Speaker 3: are wrong that really contribute to a lifestyle. Our report
Speaker 3: draws out that this idea of luxury, certainly for those
Speaker 3: high networth individuals, is becoming an increase in consideration in
Speaker 3: terms of where they spend their wealth. How can the
Speaker 3: wealth management firms bring some of those lifestyle concierge support
Speaker 3: services to bear to make sure that they're bringing that
Speaker 3: all encompassing relationship for the future generations.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back a bit to this idea of
Speaker 1: that young wanting a different class of assets and risk
Speaker 1: a class of assets. So crypto okay, private equity. I
Speaker 1: mean again, there's a rising evidence that in fact, private
Speaker 1: equity is not a higher return asset class at all.
Speaker 1: As we say these days, it's not magic, it's debt, right,
Speaker 1: And as interest rates rise, and we've seen over the
Speaker 1: last couple of years, it's huge difficulty that private equity
Speaker 1: companies are having and exiting any of their positions. So
Speaker 1: it's possible that private equity may not be one of
Speaker 1: the asset classes that the young end up looking at.
Speaker 1: But I'm really interested in the idea that they might
Speaker 1: want to invest in a more global way, because we
Speaker 1: have had over the last couple of decades, even global
Speaker 1: has meant the US right in the six seventy percent
Speaker 1: of world industries are still America. So even if people
Speaker 1: say I want to be globally diversified, they still end
Speaker 1: up basically invested in the US and more or less
Speaker 1: invested in those top tech companies. But you think that
Speaker 1: over the next couple of decades we'll see a shift
Speaker 1: driven by people genuinely wanting to be more international.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we do.
Speaker 3: It's partly driven by some of those favorable tax regimes,
Speaker 3: but also the access to those particular sort of financial ecosystems,
Speaker 3: the stability political stability within those particular regions are all considerations.
Speaker 3: But I think when I look at the long term benefits,
Speaker 3: I'm going to bring you back to your point by
Speaker 3: private equity, I think when you look at private equity
Speaker 3: in the long term, it's a very valid options, as
Speaker 3: with crypto, as with the kind of globalization piece.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have to have to stop you there. I've
Speaker 1: got to stop you there because first, on private equity,
Speaker 1: there is no real long term because the scale of
Speaker 1: it has only relatively recent, right, so we don't know yet.
Speaker 1: I'll give you that if you look at the numbers
Speaker 1: of the private equity industry, gives you it looks like
Speaker 1: maybe this outperforms over the long term. But this is
Speaker 1: a tiny industry until relatively recently. It's only become a
Speaker 1: giant industry during the low interest rate period. We have
Speaker 1: no idea how at this scale it will perform in
Speaker 1: a higher interest rate environment. So I'm not giving you
Speaker 1: that one Cryptocurrency again, I can't give you that because
Speaker 1: there is no long term. We have no idea. There
Speaker 1: is no long term. We only have the short term here.
Speaker 1: We can only guess about the future, right Which doesn't
Speaker 1: mean that if you have a high risk appetite, shouldn't
Speaker 1: be in it. But no one can tell you that
Speaker 1: cryptocurrency has a great long term performance record because there
Speaker 1: is no long term, right Nless, your definition of long
Speaker 1: term is different to mine.
Speaker 3: I'm not going to argue with you on that point.
Speaker 3: We're seeing organizations invest Goldman Sachs to give an example.
Speaker 3: You know, they have their GMFRA product proposition, which is.
Speaker 2: Enabling that b N Y melan. They have what they call.
Speaker 3: All bridge, which is looking at what we talk talk
Speaker 3: about alternative investments.
Speaker 2: So as I say, we.
Speaker 3: Can argue the pros and cons, but ultimately I think
Speaker 3: as an industry, I think my key point is important
Speaker 3: to be cognizant of those those alternative investments and our
Speaker 3: sense of capt geminis those will be more relevant going forward,
Speaker 3: and I think the regulation of those particular products, you know,
Speaker 3: crypto as an example, I suppose they're also increasing let's
Speaker 3: just say the acceptance of the opportunity they represent.
Speaker 1: Let's go back to crypto because I get in a
Speaker 1: lot of trouble from the bitcoin bros all the time
Speaker 1: about confusing bitcoin and crypto because they're different things. Right,
Speaker 1: So when you say crypto and you say that the
Speaker 1: young or the younger generations would like to include crypto
Speaker 1: as an asset class inside their portfolios, what do you mean.
Speaker 3: Anything that qualifies as a digital asset, Maren, including bitcoin?
Speaker 1: Can I just interrupt to give my usal message was
Speaker 1: if any of you would like to send hate mail
Speaker 1: about the differentiation between crypto or bitcoin, NFTs, etcetera. Please
Speaker 1: can you send them direct to Gareth. I'll give you
Speaker 1: his contact details at the end.
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, My.
Speaker 3: Pleasure, My pleasure.
Speaker 1: Get enough everyone, Everyone should share the.
Speaker 2: Joy exactly exactly.
Speaker 4: I think fifty six percent fifty percent of gen zd's
Speaker 4: and millennials view alternative investments as a valid part of
Speaker 4: their portfolio.
Speaker 1: Alternative investments, we're putting crypto, we're putting private equity. What
Speaker 1: else are we putting.
Speaker 2: ETFs for example? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, is that alternative?
Speaker 2: Depends on the product type? Yeah, yeah, all right.
Speaker 3: The other thing about the future generations is the digital
Speaker 3: experience very much moving away probably from the classic face
Speaker 3: to face. When you look at the millennials, they really
Speaker 3: want the mobile interface. They want personalization. So they want
Speaker 3: us to use their data. When I say us, the
Speaker 3: banking industry, the wealth management industry, they want us to
Speaker 3: use their data to bring proactive propositions that are relevant
Speaker 3: to their investment strategy. And fundamentally, they probably also want
Speaker 3: to see only for these high network of individuals their
Speaker 3: extensive wealth in one place.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm really interested in this idea that a
Speaker 1: wealth manager should also provide a sort of luxury concierge
Speaker 1: service that does travel and does bespoken experiences, education, medical, cybersecurity,
Speaker 1: all these things in a wanna that would love. That
Speaker 1: sounds great. Do you think that the next generation has
Speaker 1: different expectations of how they will spend to the current generation.
Speaker 1: And one of the things that we've talked but again
Speaker 1: quite a lot on the podcast, is the way, particularly
Speaker 1: in travel and people with a much lower level of
Speaker 1: wealth than the luxury travel industry previously have expected are
Speaker 1: spending very large amounts of money on luxury travel.
Speaker 2: I think it's the experienced generation.
Speaker 3: I think, I think fundamentally and with this this segment,
Speaker 3: next generation high networth individuals, it probably just amplifies that Meren.
Speaker 3: You know, travel experience, passion. You know, we talk about
Speaker 3: passion investments. I can see you look steering.
Speaker 1: It's not physical, it's a snare.
Speaker 3: But you know, art art wine cars. And again in
Speaker 3: our cap Gemini report last year, we talked about the
Speaker 3: roll of the family offers.
Speaker 2: This is an extension merin in.
Speaker 3: Terms of bringing some of those non financial services to
Speaker 3: bear in a way that I see is very much
Speaker 3: in line with the client expectations and their desire for experiences.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess that what I object to slightly is
Speaker 1: idea that something is a passion investment. I kind of
Speaker 1: feel either it's a passion or it's an investment confusing too,
Speaker 1: and it's a root to low returns or disaster. So listen,
Speaker 1: here's the real question for you. Right, we have a
Speaker 1: lot of listeners out there. Maybe they're going to inherit,
Speaker 1: maybe they're not. Maybe they already have money or whatever,
Speaker 1: and they're sitting listening to this and they're thinking themselves,
Speaker 1: do you know what, Why haven't I got a wealth manager?
Speaker 1: I should have a wealth manager. This is what I need.
Speaker 1: And maybe they're inheriting. They're thinking, I don't want my
Speaker 1: mum and dad's wealth manager. I never liked them anyway.
Speaker 1: Fusty old people, pursuits, ties, blasts, lunch at Christmas. Don't
Speaker 1: want any of that nonsense. How do you look for
Speaker 1: a wealth manager? What are the main things that you
Speaker 1: should be looking for when you go out trying to
Speaker 1: find somebody to do exactly this, not just run your money,
Speaker 1: but effectively manage your long term, long term income and lifestyle.
Speaker 1: What are we looking for?
Speaker 2: Really, really good question. I'll probably think about it in
Speaker 2: three ways.
Speaker 3: I think, first and foremost, a wealth manager or wealth
Speaker 3: management organization that fundamentally understands your aspirations, so I think
Speaker 3: they have to be one hundred percent aligned with what
Speaker 3: you want to achieve. I think the second thing I
Speaker 3: would say, Marin is I think a wealth manager that
Speaker 3: gives you access to the breadth of products, services, and
Speaker 3: experiences you're looking for for you and your family. And
Speaker 3: then finally, I think with anything in life, there has
Speaker 3: to be a degree of chemistry. I think fundamentally having
Speaker 3: a very real time relationship that's supported by digital and
Speaker 3: we've talked about this demand for a digital platform, but
Speaker 3: also that's enabled through a relationship because fundamentally we're talking
Speaker 3: about the very important conversations for you as an individual
Speaker 3: and your and your future and your family's future.
Speaker 1: Okay, and crucially, what should I pay and how should
Speaker 1: I pay? Is there been any shift in the charging
Speaker 1: structure for wealth management or are we still just going
Speaker 1: to pay one percent advalareum forever one and a half
Speaker 1: whatever it is depending on my eiger.
Speaker 3: Obviously it varies very much by organization. Don't comment on
Speaker 3: the kind of pricing models for specifics. But again, I
Speaker 3: would say, in a world where we're looking to achieve
Speaker 3: outcomes and experiences, why not link the investment to those outcomes,
Speaker 3: and that will be as a client, that will be
Speaker 3: the angle that I would always be looking to take
Speaker 3: in terms of how can we get some surety in
Speaker 3: terms of the long term investment and how can we
Speaker 3: link fees, costs, et cetera on that.
Speaker 1: Basis, So you would suggest that people find a way
Speaker 1: to link what they pay to the performance of the
Speaker 1: assets that they left for the wealth manager rather than
Speaker 1: pay a flat advalorem.
Speaker 3: I think if you're able to make sure that all
Speaker 3: aspects of the kind of investment are aligned to the
Speaker 3: to the ultimately ams, that would be that for me
Speaker 3: would be a preferable model. The relationship manager model as well.
Speaker 2: Maren.
Speaker 3: Let's just think about that, because the other dynamic we're
Speaker 3: seeing here is relationship managers are also considering their long
Speaker 3: term future. You know, many of them are approaching retirement age.
Speaker 3: You know, we've seen a significant proportion of relationship managers
Speaker 3: that will leave the industry. So there's quite a lot
Speaker 3: of volatility in terms of the relationship manage your community
Speaker 3: as well. So again This is another consideration for the
Speaker 3: wealth management organizations. How do they retain and grow that
Speaker 3: talent that also evolves with their client base.
Speaker 1: How has it happened that the relationship managers in this
Speaker 1: business have not recruited at a younger age? Why have
Speaker 1: we got an aging industry?
Speaker 3: I think undoubtedly they are, But the key challenge is
Speaker 3: can you retain and excite that talent, give them the
Speaker 3: capabilities that we've talked about, you know, digital capabilities.
Speaker 2: Generational AI.
Speaker 3: Can you give them access to the products and services
Speaker 3: that their clients need?
Speaker 1: You know, we all say it's sorry, Is this really
Speaker 1: about a lot of people working in this industry who
Speaker 1: used to be active wealth managers and gradually is the
Speaker 1: asset management itself is centralized? Men or women or whatever
Speaker 1: who used to find themselves actively running assets now find
Speaker 1: themselves really only being a relationship manager because the asset
Speaker 1: management has been shifted centrally. Is is that what we're
Speaker 1: talking about here?
Speaker 3: Undoubtedly there's been a change in the role, but again,
Speaker 3: as we've said, there's also a change in the client base,
Speaker 3: and there's a wealth management firm. You've got to make
Speaker 3: sure that you're giving your relationship managers the tools and
Speaker 3: techniques to enable them to serve as future generations.
Speaker 1: Do you know what, Gareth, I think we can now
Speaker 1: answer one of the questions that we get asked most
Speaker 1: regularly by listeners, which is what career should my child
Speaker 1: go into when they leave university? I think you've answered
Speaker 1: this for us. Become a specialist wealth management relationship manager
Speaker 1: with an AI and luxury travel specialty. I can I
Speaker 1: cover it.
Speaker 2: You here to hear first, Merrit, and you hear to
Speaker 2: hear first.
Speaker 1: Oh lucky kids, wonderful. Thank you so much, every one.
Speaker 1: Last question for you? What are you reading at the moment?
Speaker 3: Oh? I'm reading a book called Vine Street.
Speaker 1: Vine Street.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, there's a drama based in Soho in the
Speaker 3: nineteen nineteen thirties, classic police drama. Nothing that's all to
Speaker 3: do with banking, nothing that's all to do with financial.
Speaker 1: Services, police drama. I love a police drama. Vine Street. Okay,
Speaker 1: Vine Street.
Speaker 3: I recommend it, Marion. I'm very much enjoy it. Part
Speaker 3: way three brilliant.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining
Speaker 1: us today.
Speaker 3: That was really really interesting, my pleasure.
Speaker 2: Great to see you.
Speaker 1: Thank you, thanks for listening to this week's Marin Talks Money.
Speaker 1: If you like ours, show, rate, review, and subscribe wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to podcasts and keep sending questions or comments
Speaker 1: The Merror Money at Bloomberg dot net. You can also
Speaker 1: follow me and John on Twitter or x. I'm at
Speaker 1: marinas w and John is John Underscore Stepe. This episode
Speaker 1: was hosted by Meet MAREN'SUMT web. It was produced by
Speaker 1: some Asati and Moses and sound designed by Blake Maple's
Speaker 1: Special thanks of course to Gareth Wilson.