1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:33,520 Speaker 2: What is your financial purpose? What is the value of money, 3 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 2: what does it mean for your life, satisfaction and legacy. 4 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 2: To help us unpack all of this, let's bring in 5 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 2: doctor Jordan Grummitt. He's a physician whose niche is the 6 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 2: intersection of money, mortality, purpose, and regret. He's worked in 7 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 2: internal medicine and hospice care. His book, The Purpose Code 8 00:00:56,360 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 2: helps people understand their purpose, connection, and legacy. So let's 9 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 2: begin very basically, what do people get wrong when they 10 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 2: say they're searching for purpose? Oh, my god, so much so. 11 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:15,320 Speaker 3: First and foremost, most people think of purpose as their why. 12 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 3: And I actually think this is very dangerous because when 13 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 3: you think of your purpose as your why, it becomes 14 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 3: this big, audacious thing, like a needle in a haystack, 15 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 3: and there are high stakes in getting it right. I 16 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 3: actually define purpose as something completely different. I think purpose 17 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:34,320 Speaker 3: are the things we do that light us up in 18 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:38,040 Speaker 3: the present and future. That is it very easy, very 19 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 3: easy to control, not a needle in a haystack. They 20 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 3: really confuse what I call purpose and meaning. A lot 21 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:45,559 Speaker 3: of people think they're the same thing, but meaning gets 22 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 3: more to our why. It's more about our past. But 23 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 3: purpose is really straightforward, and when you look at it 24 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 3: as straightforward, it becomes just much easier. What can I 25 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 3: do today that lights me up and is exciting? 26 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 2: And you just stinguish between purpose that creates anxiety and 27 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 2: the kinds of purpose that creates meaning. Explain the difference. 28 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 3: So when I wrote my first book, Taking Stock, I 29 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 3: made the point that we should be putting purpose, identity, 30 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 3: and connections before wealth building. Not that we should put 31 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:21,519 Speaker 3: wealth building aside, but we need to think about those 32 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 3: things so we can then build a framework of wealth 33 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 3: around them. And I went to talk about this book 34 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 3: of conferences and people would look at me, and I'd 35 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 3: always get one in the crowd would come up to 36 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 3: me afterwards, and they'd be angry, they'd be sweaty, and 37 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 3: they'd say, will you stop telling me to find my purpose. 38 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 3: I've been searching forever. I don't know what it is. 39 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 3: I'm totally frustrated and anxious. I don't even think there 40 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,519 Speaker 3: is a purpose. Please stop people telling people to find 41 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 3: the purpose. So me, being a physician, I'm like, I 42 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 3: need to do some research on this. And what I 43 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 3: found was a paradox. When I did the research. There's 44 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 3: so many studies out there that say that having a 45 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:01,519 Speaker 3: sense of purpose increases our our happiness, our health, and 46 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 3: our longevity. There are tons and tons of papers. But 47 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:07,239 Speaker 3: then I saw other research, especially by this lady named 48 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 3: Larissa Rainey, who found that up to ninety one percent 49 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 3: of people, at some point in their life feel purpose anxiety. 50 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 3: This idea that finding their purpose causes them to be 51 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 3: depressed and anxious and feel like they can't actually connect 52 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 3: to what the role in the world is. And so 53 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 3: in my mind I kind of said, well, how does 54 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 3: this paradox work? How can purpose be both the most 55 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,799 Speaker 3: important and also so anxiety provoking? And this is how 56 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 3: I kind of realize we kind of get purpose wrong. 57 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 3: We think it's one thing, but it's probably two. What 58 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 3: I call big P purpose and little P purpose. The 59 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 3: big P purpose is that kind of big, audacious why 60 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 3: like how am I going to make a legacy and 61 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 3: define myself? And I think that makes people anxious. What 62 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 3: I define purpose is little P purpose is more of 63 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 3: those process oriented things you do that light you. 64 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 2: Up really really interesting. So when we're talking about whether 65 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 2: it's big P your little P purpose, is it something 66 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 2: that we happen onto and discover. Is it something we build, 67 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 2: or is it something that we practice, or some combination 68 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 2: of the three. 69 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 3: People always ask me, they say how do I find 70 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 3: my purpose? And the first thing I kind of say is, well, 71 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 3: we don't find your purpose. You build or create it. 72 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 3: It's a very active process, but it is true you 73 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 3: have to have some idea of what lights you up. 74 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 3: I call these purpose anchors, this idea of well, what 75 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 3: kind of excites me? What lights me up? In the book, 76 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 3: I talk about all sorts of ways and exercises we 77 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 3: can do that are very very simple, that help us 78 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 3: figure out what our purpose anchors are. But the easy 79 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 3: thing is finding what lights you up. Then the hard 80 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 3: thing is you have to build a life of purpose 81 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 3: around those anchors, which means you have to take action 82 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 3: and do something. I'll give you a perfect example. One 83 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 3: of the ways you can find a purpose anchor is 84 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 3: to ask yourself. If I found out I was dying tomorrow, 85 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,239 Speaker 3: what would I regret that I never had the energy, courage, 86 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,159 Speaker 3: your time to do? And I asked myself this ten 87 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 3: years ago and the answer was so utterly clear, I'd 88 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 3: regret never Traditionally publishing a book that was my purpose anchor, 89 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 3: and that was really easy. I wanted to write a 90 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 3: book and I wanted a traditional publisher. The hard part 91 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:11,599 Speaker 3: was then I had to build a life of purpose 92 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 3: around that. I had to go figure out what I 93 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 3: wanted to write about. I had to build a platform, 94 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 3: I had to find an agent. I had to eventually 95 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 3: write a book proposal. All very hard work, but very purposeful, 96 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 3: exciting work. And so the idea is, figure out what 97 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:29,359 Speaker 3: lights you up. Can be big, can be small, It 98 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 3: can be one thing, can be one hundred different things, 99 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 3: can last a week or can last a lifetime. None 100 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,359 Speaker 3: of that matters, but then start building a life of 101 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 3: purpose around it. 102 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 2: And one of the things you've written about is achievement pressure. 103 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 2: What is the ways that people can have less purpose 104 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 2: anxiety and live a more purposeful, stress free life. 105 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 3: So here's the thing. I often talk about the difference 106 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 3: between meaning and purpose, and a lot of people think 107 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 3: they're the same thing, but in my mind are very different. 108 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 3: Let me explain, Meaning is about the past, and it's 109 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 3: all about your thoughts. So meaning as the stories we 110 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 3: tell ourselves about ourselves and about our past. Now, happy 111 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 3: people tend to see their past, see difficulties, see trauma, 112 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 3: realize that they were enough, and because they were enough, 113 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 3: they got over all their difficulties to be where they 114 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 3: are today. So it's a heroic story, and that sense 115 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 3: of meaning is you come through that, you say I 116 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 3: am enough now. Unhappy people have more of a trauma story. 117 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 3: They go back, they look at their traumas and their problems. 118 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 3: They feel like they were thwarted, like they were never 119 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 3: enough and that's why they're where they are today. People 120 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 3: who have meaning problems often feel like instead of going 121 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 3: back and dealing with their past and learning better stories 122 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 3: to tell about themselves, instead they think they can jump 123 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 3: to the present in future, find a sense of purpose 124 00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 3: and that's going to quench their meaning problem. They think 125 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 3: they can. It's their way to feeling enough inside. And 126 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 3: so what you'll find is people who feel bad about 127 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 3: things that happened in the past, and instead of dealing 128 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 3: with those they achieve more and more and more. But 129 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 3: the problem is they achieve the first thing and they 130 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 3: think it's gonna make them happy, but it doesn't fill 131 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 3: that hole from their past, so they then double down 132 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 3: and try to achieve more and more. I call it 133 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 3: the achievement treadmill. We have so many great examples of 134 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 3: that in pop culture. Elon Musk is a perfect one. 135 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 3: Do you know about Elon Musk? His childhood was hard, 136 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 3: He was kind of abused by his father. He was 137 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 3: beat up by all the other school kids. I believe 138 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 3: from the outside, Elon Musk probably doesn't have the greatest 139 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 3: sense of meaning. He sees trauma in his past, and 140 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 3: instead of dealing with that, he figures, if I just 141 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 3: make a trillion dollars, or if I just travel to Mars, 142 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 3: if I just do these things, I'm gonna be happy. 143 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 3: But anyone looking at the outside looks at Elon Musk 144 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 3: and says, boy, that guy doesn't look happy. Like most 145 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 3: of the people work with him end up not liking him. 146 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 3: He feels like someone's always screwing him. He feels like, 147 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 3: you know, you start looking at this guy who has 148 00:07:57,760 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 3: everything in all the sense of purpose a guy could 149 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 3: in the world, and he looks unhappy. It's a difference 150 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 3: between meaning and purpose. If you want to get off 151 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 3: that achievement treadmill, you have to have a better sense 152 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 3: of meaning. It's about dealing with your past. 153 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 2: So you bring up some really interesting issues, whether it's 154 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 2: related to someone like Musk or not. How often are 155 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 2: people confusing purpose with things like status, public recognition, productivity, career? 156 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 2: Elon sounds like he's the case study for what you 157 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 2: just argued. 158 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,839 Speaker 3: So here's the big question. All of those things can 159 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 3: be good or bad. And so the question is are 160 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 3: they fulfilling a sense of little P purpose or fulfilling 161 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 3: a sense of big P purpose. And let me tell you, 162 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 3: I always feel big P purposes is bad. It's always negative. 163 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 3: So let me explain why. So big P purposes goal oriented. 164 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 3: And because we live in America, you know, if you 165 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,199 Speaker 3: can dream it, you can build it. It's often big 166 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 3: audacious goals that are very difficult to achieve and they're 167 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 3: usually all or nothing, like I want to travel to 168 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 3: Mars or I want to be a trillionaire is all 169 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 3: or nothing and it's really hard to achieve. And every 170 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 3: million people who go for those goals, very few are 171 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 3: ever going to achieve it. So you're setting yourself up 172 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:19,239 Speaker 3: for purpose anxiety. So if your career or your status 173 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 3: or the things you're doing every day is about big 174 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 3: PA purpose and it's very goal oriented, you're generally going 175 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 3: to find yourself unhappy. Because you're either going to fail, 176 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 3: which is going to feel bad, or you're going to 177 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:32,839 Speaker 3: reach that goal, but the minute you reach it, because 178 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 3: you're not feeling enough inside, you're either going to double 179 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 3: down and reach for a higher goal, or you're going 180 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 3: to be completely afraid you're going to lose it. Loss 181 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 3: of version, right, loss of version where doubly is afraid 182 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:44,679 Speaker 3: of losing what we've gained than not gaining it in 183 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 3: the first place. So you're setting yourself up for unhappiness. 184 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:49,959 Speaker 3: Let's change that around and say that you're more of 185 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 3: a little pea purpose and you enjoy the process, not 186 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 3: the goal, but the process of your career or the 187 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,959 Speaker 3: process of having status. You like going in every day 188 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 3: of the office. You love seeing the people you love. 189 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 3: You're working on complex, intricate problems. You get so excited 190 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 3: by them you forget the time of day and miss lunch. 191 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 3: That's flow, that's little p purpose, that's enjoying the process. 192 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:14,679 Speaker 3: Most of these people, you know, if they don't end 193 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 3: up getting that promotion, if they don't end up being successful, 194 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 3: they'll still tell you it was really exciting along the way. 195 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 3: So any of those things can be good or bad. 196 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 3: It really depends on if they're a version of little 197 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 3: P purpose for you or a version of big P purpose. 198 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 2: So you're hinting at something that I'm fascinated by, which 199 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 2: is the concept of legacy, big P purpose, so to speak? 200 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 2: Is this overrated? Do people misunderstand a complishment or reputation 201 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 2: or influence? Like? What is the role of legacy in 202 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 2: seeking a purpose? 203 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 3: So here's the thing. If you're interested in big P purpose, 204 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 3: often your goal is to do something big, audacious and 205 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:00,319 Speaker 3: leave a legacy. And as we've kind of outlined, usually 206 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,199 Speaker 3: those things are incredibly hard to achieve, and you're probably 207 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 3: going to be anxious. You might not enjoy the process 208 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 3: getting there, so you might burn out, you might quit, 209 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 3: And if you're lucky and happen to get there, you 210 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 3: may want to push past it and have even more. Again, 211 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 3: I think a lot of that is a recipe for failure, 212 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 3: and we see this in lots of hyperachievers. But let's 213 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 3: turn that around. Let's say you're interested in little pea 214 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 3: purpose and you just do things you love. I actually 215 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 3: argue that will leave a bigger legacy and change the 216 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 3: world more. And it has something to do with generational trauma. 217 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 3: We all know what generational trauma is. Right. Our parents 218 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 3: and their parents struggle with traumas, they might not do 219 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 3: the best job of it, and they hand that trauma 220 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 3: down to us, and we face similar traumas. My grandmother 221 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 3: was an orphan during the Depression. She had issues with 222 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,559 Speaker 3: money and food. She passed that on to my mom, who, 223 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,439 Speaker 3: even though was in a high paying job, had stressors 224 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 3: about money and was always afraid to spend. And then 225 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 3: my dad died prematurely, and she was afraid on spending 226 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 3: on anything. She was dreaming that when we went to college, 227 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 3: her three kids, she was going to sell the house 228 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 3: and live an apartment. It was very traumatic. She passed 229 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:10,719 Speaker 3: that down to me. I have trouble spending to this 230 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 3: day because of the trauma that's been passed down. That's 231 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:17,319 Speaker 3: generational trauma. What we often don't talk about is generational growth. 232 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 3: Generational growth is the exact opposite. It's the purposeful things 233 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 3: we hand down that end up being our legacy. I'd 234 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 3: love to talk about my maternal grandfather, who was an 235 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 3: accountant and loved math. Because he loved math, my mom 236 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 3: learned that from him. It was generational growth. She decided 237 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 3: she loved math. She became an account When I was 238 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 3: a little kid, I had a learning disability. Because my 239 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 3: mom loved math and she modeled that behavior. I ended 240 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 3: up loving math, and I was really good at math. 241 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 3: So even though I was bad at reading, I was 242 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 3: good at math. It gave me the confidence to move forward. 243 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 3: I eventually became a doctor, used those mathematical skills, and 244 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 3: I was able to help hundreds and thousands of people 245 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 3: with my medical skills. That's generational growth. That is my 246 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 3: maternal great grandfather, who I never met, as he died 247 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 3: before I was born. His sense of little purpose and 248 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 3: his love of math was passed through the generations to me. 249 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 3: And every time I walk in the room and helped 250 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 3: someone in the hospital or in the office, his legacy 251 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 3: was being felt fifty seventy five years later and hundreds 252 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 3: of miles away. Little pea purpose actually leads to tons 253 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 3: of legacy. And it's a lot more attainable than let's say, 254 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 3: traveling to Mars or making it to be a trillionaire. 255 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 2: So someone who's achieved professional or financial success, how should 256 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,959 Speaker 2: they think about purpose after they've hit those goals. 257 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 3: Well, again, we always talk about this idea that money 258 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 3: is a tool, not a goal. You now have tons 259 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 3: of this tool, Let's use it to live a life 260 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 3: of purpose. What do you dig, what excites you? How 261 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 3: can you use money to do more of that, to 262 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 3: be more involved in that, or to offload things you 263 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 3: don't want to do so you have more time to 264 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 3: do the things you do want to do. Now, I 265 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 3: want to tell people, just because you're not wealthy doesn't 266 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 3: mean you can't use other tools to live a life 267 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 3: of purpose. Money is one really good tool that helps 268 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 3: you live a life purpose by freeing up your time 269 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 3: and giving you some fuel to pay for things that 270 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 3: help you live that life of purpose. But there are 271 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 3: tons of ways to live a life of purpose without 272 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 3: having tons of money too, So you need to keep 273 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 3: it in perspective. But if you are wealthy, if you're retired, 274 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 3: you're like, I've won the lottery, I got the jackpot. 275 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 3: Let's use that money to do things that are deeply 276 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 3: important to. 277 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 2: You, really really interesting. So we're down to our last 278 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 2: question or two. I want to address your work as 279 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 2: a medical doctor in hospice. You've spent a lot of 280 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 2: time and spoke with a lot of people near the 281 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 2: end of their lives. How do their ideas of purpose 282 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 2: differ from younger ambitious people, how they think about it? 283 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 2: And what sort of regrets do people have at the 284 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 2: end of their life that might inform us how we 285 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 2: should think about me and purpose. So everyone regret. 286 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 3: Everyone's regrets are slightly different, but there's always some version 287 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 3: of this. And before I even give you the line 288 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 3: that I hear so often, let me remind you that 289 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 3: almost no one has ever told me on their deathbed 290 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 3: they wish their net worth made it to two million 291 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 3: and it only made it to one million. 292 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 2: No one says that. 293 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 3: I've never heard someone say I wish I worked more 294 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 3: nights and weekends. You just never hear that. So what 295 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 3: you tend to hear people say is I really regret 296 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 3: that I never had the energy, courage, or time too 297 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 3: And then fill in the blank. And the reason it's 298 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 3: fill in the blank is because for every person that's different. 299 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 3: You know, when I ask myself that question, it was 300 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 3: that I didn't traditionally publish a book. Another person may 301 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 3: say that they never traveled to Africa. Another person may say, 302 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 3: you know what, when I was young, I wanted to 303 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 3: be an NBA basketball player and I never made it. 304 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 3: There I wasn't good enough. But I could have worked 305 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 3: as a coach on the team. I could have been 306 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 3: part of a fan club. I could have done so 307 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 3: many other things to bring this goodness into my life. 308 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 3: And I did. And so who are the people you 309 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 3: didn't connect? You because you were too afraid? What are 310 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 3: the things you didn't try because you always thought there 311 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 3: was more time, or that you didn't have enough money. 312 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 3: But there's some excuse that you didn't do this thing 313 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 3: you really wanted to do. The young people can learn 314 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 3: from this. We can take that regret of the dying 315 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 3: and we can turn that into a purpose anchor. If 316 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 3: I can think about what it would be like to 317 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 3: be on my deskbed and figure, well, what would I 318 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 3: have regrets about? I can then turn that into a 319 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 3: purpose anchor and say, well, I'm not dying. Why don't 320 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 3: I start building a life of purpose around that? And 321 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 3: that's kind of the key, And that's what I think 322 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 3: the dying can really teach to all of us younger people. 323 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 3: And that's why for me to connect these disparate parts 324 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 3: of my life as being a hospice doctor with being 325 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 3: someone who talks about personal finance, this is where I 326 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 3: saw them intersect. 327 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 2: Last question and apologies of my pattern recognition machine is 328 00:16:56,080 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 2: kicking into action. I'm hearing ollvious regrets are not things 329 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 2: that people did, but things that people did not do. 330 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 2: Is that do we regret the things like I've never 331 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:14,679 Speaker 2: heard anyone say, gee, I never should have bought that 332 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,719 Speaker 2: sports car, I never should have bought that convertible, or 333 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,360 Speaker 2: I never should have taken the family back to Italy, 334 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,640 Speaker 2: to the old country. It's never the things you do. 335 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 2: It sounds like it's the things that you didn't do. 336 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 3: So what you're talking about is the difference between the 337 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 3: two different types of regrets. There are action regrets and 338 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 3: in action regrets. Action regrets are man, you know, I 339 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 3: really wish I got better sleep last night because then 340 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 3: I wouldn't have gotten to that accident today and hurt 341 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,159 Speaker 3: that person, right, That is an action regret, and in 342 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,400 Speaker 3: action regret is Wow, I'm now sitting on my deathbed 343 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 3: and I really had this dream that I never pursued. 344 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 2: But here's the thing. 345 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 3: Action regrets are often in action regrets in hiding. So 346 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 3: an action regret, I wish I really slept better and 347 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 3: didn't get into that car accident and hurt that person. 348 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 3: But what you're really saying is, well, I can't change 349 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 3: the past, but I really wish I did something about that. 350 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 3: I really wish I educated other people to what I 351 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 3: did wrong. I really wish I went and talked to 352 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 3: that family and apologized to them and helped them out 353 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 3: in some way to make up for what I did. 354 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,439 Speaker 3: Like a lot of times, action regret actually is in 355 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 3: action regret in hiding. So yes, it's that we didn't 356 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 3: have the courage to take action to do those things 357 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 3: that were deeply important to us. But let me add 358 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 3: one more caveat. I had a patient who was dying 359 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 3: in his late forties of leukemia, and when he was 360 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 3: in his twenties, he did something amazing. He was rising 361 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 3: the corporate ladder in his early twenties and he decided 362 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 3: to take a year off and try to climb Mount Everest. 363 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 3: And everyone thought he was crazy, and they're like, you're 364 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 3: in your prime money making years. Why are you taking 365 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 3: a year off. You're going to set yourself back. 366 00:18:58,320 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 2: He did it anyway. 367 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 3: He trained for six months and then he went and 368 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 3: started climbing Mount Everest. The weather changed. He never made 369 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 3: it much past Spase Camp and then he went back 370 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 3: to work. And then I met him in his forties 371 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 3: when he was dying, and all he wanted to talk 372 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 3: about was that trip to Everest and what it felt 373 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 3: like to be on the mountain. Here's the magic. You 374 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 3: don't even need to succeed. All you have to do 375 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 3: is have the courage to try. That's what people don't get. 376 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 3: You will regret not whether you succeeded or failed. You 377 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 3: will regret that you didn't give it your best. 378 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 2: Huh. Really fascinating stuff, Jordan. So to sum up, people 379 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 2: who want to live a more satisfying, productive, meaningful life 380 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 2: should worry less about big, hairy, audacious goals and be 381 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 2: focused more on the little things that bring you joy. 382 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 2: The processes and daily activities you can do that build meeting, 383 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 2: build purpose, and ultimately lead to using your money in 384 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 2: a more satisfying way. I'm Barry Richtolts. You're listening to 385 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 2: Bloomberg's at the Money