WEBVTT - Who Committed the 1912 Villisca Ax Murders? 0:00:01.120 --> 0:00:04.600 Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from house stuff Works 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:14.240 dot com. Pane, Welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:18.080 There's Charles w Chuck Bryant, there's Sherry put The three 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:22.400 of us together had a little mystery, a lot of mayhem, 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:29.080 you got stuff you should and one ax, Yeah, how 0:00:29.080 --> 0:00:34.479 many is this three? We've got Louzie Borden ye and 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:36.720 then this one. I couldn't think of it anymore. Well, 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:38.320 I looked. It's funny because I looked out, was like, 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:39.879 I wonder if we could do a spinoff show just 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:47.120 on X murders UM, and Wikipedia had thirty listed. I'm surprised. 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:50.440 That's if there's like ten mentioned in this this article alone. 0:00:50.800 --> 0:00:53.920 M M, well, we'll see why there are so many 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:58.680 X murders. This this UM. This whole researching the Viliska 0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:02.720 X murder kind of solved a question I've had that 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:06.440 I didn't realize I knew had how to pronounce Vliska. 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:09.839 We just settled that by calling the Valiska town hall. 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:12.640 That was a pretty great moment. Right before we recorded, 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:15.399 I was like, are you sure there's a Valissa? Josh 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:21.080 called the town hall and lied. Well, it was kind 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:24.080 of a bet that's just settled. We just never put 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:26.760 money on it. So if you are whoever answers the 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:30.240 phone at the Vliska Town Hall, um, first of all, 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:35.800 thank you. You got a call today, so congratulations. And 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:38.360 second of all, you just spoke to an internet celebrity. 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:41.760 I don't know, man. I think Valisca is on the 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:45.280 map and it is a d percent because of this 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:50.080 this murder. Well, if you just type in Valisca, almost 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:52.880 all you see is stuff about the Sacks murder. Well, yeah, 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:57.520 the site of Valiska, Iowa dot com is entirely dedicated 0:01:57.520 --> 0:01:59.800 to the Sacs murder. It's it's a it's a pretty 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:03.120 big deal. Yeah, no, it's just it doesn't mention it 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:05.400 at all. But all the copy is just in the 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:09.040 outline of the shape of an x. They just talk 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:11.639 about like their boys club and stuff that they're doing 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:13.720 their Fourth of July prade, But it's in the shape 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:17.160 of an X. The population and elevation is in a 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:20.760 drop of blood coming off of the axe. It's his population, 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:24.400 not as much as it was on June nine. That's 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:28.840 morbid nineteen twelve. Did you did you hear about this before? Well, 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:31.640 I think after hint k effect. We had some emails 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:41.359 from probably local Iowans Iowan's, Iowan's, Iowania Nights, uh saying, hey, 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:45.000 you guys should if you're into the not into X murders, 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:50.000 but if you're into reporting on grizzly crimes, you should 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:52.360 check out the one we had in nineteen twelve. Yeah, 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:55.200 they were right, man, this is so before we get 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:57.280 into it, I think it goes without saying, listeners that 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:01.160 this is a very horrific grizzly crime. They we're going 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:04.120 to talk about in some detail, right listen at your 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:08.400 own discretion. X murder is in the title, everybody. I 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:10.400 just want to make sure we cover ourselves there. This 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:14.280 is one of the most brutal crimes in American history, 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:16.560 and a lot of people don't know about it. Man. 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:22.600 Well let's let's let's stop jabbering and get this criming. Okay, 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:24.600 all right? Where where was Where was this from? By 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:29.000 the way? Uh Well, one of the articles we researched 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:34.080 was from Mike dash the Smithsonian Magazine. They do great work, 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:38.440 great work. Um. There's another guy named and named Ed 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:40.720 Epperley who we have to give a shout at to, 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:43.920 who has like a whole site called asked Ed that's 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:48.120 dedicated to this murder. Guys research to for like fifty 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:50.080 five years or something like that, write one of the 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:53.960 two books. Probably Sure. He's widely known as the expert 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:56.360 on the Veliska X murder. He knows everything there is 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:58.320 to know, and he's got a really fascinating So if 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:00.680 you're even remotely into true cry him in this thing 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:03.600 floats your boat. Go check out eds site and you 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:06.800 will just spend days pouring over. Yeah. One thing I 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:10.320 realized in researching this was it was way easier to 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:15.240 get away with murder in nineteen twelve. Um. Yeah, there's 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:18.760 there's a lot of um agreement that had this been 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:22.480 done today, they would have caught the guy very quickly. 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:26.360 But yeah, nineteen twelve it was like you wear gloves 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:29.359 and you just confounded. There are only means of detection. Basically, 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:33.039 it's not from an eyewitness pretty much. Yeah, so we 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:36.440 keep saying nineteen twelve specifically, Like you said, June nine, 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:41.200 twelve in a little town, Well, it was one of 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:45.000 those things where it crossed over into midnight. So je 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:48.320 depends on if you're still at party in Potato Potato, 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:53.000 Aliska Melissa right, but at five ohway East Second Street 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:56.880 in Valiska, Iowa, which is in the county of Montgomery 0:04:57.200 --> 0:05:00.240 in the south east of the state. I believe not 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:03.159 as far from here as I thought. No. I just 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:05.279 looked on a map and I was like, wait, I 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:09.600 was there. I thought. I was like, basically in Canada, 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:14.040 where is it this more in the middle of the country. 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:16.680 I did not realize that, like, it doesn't look further 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:20.719 west than like Dallas. I I can believe that. But 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:23.039 it was the north that gets you, the northern, the 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:27.480 northern ward direction, that's what gets your share. So on 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:34.719 this night j and this little house, there were eight 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:38.920 people sleeping. You were a mom and a dad, Joe 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:45.479 and Sarah Moore, and then there four kids, um what 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:49.960 were their names, Charles I believe Herman, Catherine, Boyd and Paul. 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:55.320 And then downstairs there were two additional people sleeping in 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:59.120 the house, little Lena and Iina Stillinger and they were 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:02.000 just having to sleep over. Yeah, they were friends of Catherine, 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:04.839 the oldest daughter for the only daughter I guess, of 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:09.479 the moors Um and the whole group had been at 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:14.279 church their Presbyterians, and they had been at church Um 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:17.840 that day it was Sunday for a special children's day 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:20.560 Mass that Mrs Moore had helped put on and the 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:24.839 kids had all participated in. And at that mass, Catherine 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:27.520 had asked her two friends Lena and Ana the sisters, 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:31.240 to spend the night, And so they came back home 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:35.800 with the Moors from the children's day Mass, and by 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:38.440 I think ten or ten thirty, they were all at 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:41.240 home in bed and the lights were out and the 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:45.239 house was settled and dark. Yeah. Man, the Stillinger girls. 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:47.520 I mean, this is all very sad. But anytime I 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:50.160 hear of a faithful turn like oh yeah, we just 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:52.719 spent the night there that night and things go bad, 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:55.520 it always I don't know, bothers me more. Yeah, for sure, 0:06:55.920 --> 0:07:00.479 twists of fate are terrible, especially when they resulting terror deaths. 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:05.000 So uh, very late at night, like you said, after midnight, Um, 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:08.560 someone crept in to the back of the house which 0:07:08.640 --> 0:07:13.720 was not locked. That's stuff for debate. Oh yeah, all right, 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:18.920 locked or unlocked. They got in without raising suspicion. Two 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:22.400 story house. And this is a small town, this is um. 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:24.960 There were I don't even think two thousand people living 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:27.920 there then, and I think even less now and there 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:31.840 we're back then. Yeah, one of those places. Um, so 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:34.680 this person and I think ball accounts, we can safely 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:38.600 say it was a man creeps in this house with 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:43.240 an ax from the property. Yeah, it was Joe Moore's 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:46.360 own ax. Yeah. And as we will see, apparently, Um, 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:50.480 they called these weapons of convenience because back in the day, 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:55.600 every single house in the US had an ax, like 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:57.840 in the front or backyard. That just explained it. That 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:00.280 was the question I didn't realize i'd had. Why were 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:03.400 there's so many axe murderers at a certain period of 0:08:03.520 --> 0:08:07.320 time in American history? Is because everybody had an ax. Yeah, 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:10.520 and you would leave it just you know, like chopped 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:14.000 into the stump that you use as the chopping block 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:16.800 or whatever. It'd be like a weapon of convenience. Yeah, 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:18.560 these days you would have to kill people with like 0:08:18.600 --> 0:08:22.560 a mailbox, just some something that everyone has, so like 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:28.720 a silicon spatula or a high speed internet cable. There 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:32.960 you choke somebody with that. Yeah, Okay, all joking aside. 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:35.439 So this this dude creeps in there, He's got this axe. 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:38.440 He gets and this is very key here, he gets 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:41.880 the lamp, an oil lamp from the dresser inside the house. 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:47.360 He takes off the chimney the glass, you know, and 0:08:47.600 --> 0:08:50.120 it takes it off, bends the wick and half so 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:52.880 the flame is smaller, lights the lamp and then turns 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:57.760 it down really low, and then commences creeping. Yeah, with 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:02.040 an axe in hand and this low light um oil 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:04.240 lamp and the other chimney lest lamp, which will see 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:08.600 is a big clue. Yeah, So he goes up the stairs, apparently, 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:13.520 so he passes the stillinger girls. First goes up the stairs. 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:19.000 He passes the children's bedroom, and then opposite I believe 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:23.120 the landing from the children's bedroom are Joe and Sarah's room, 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:26.959 or is Joe and Sarah's room, and they're sleeping, and 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:30.439 he sets the oil lamp down I believe at the 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:33.920 foot of the bed, and he raises the axe over 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:40.000 his head and using the flat the flat end flat 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:42.559 side of the axe, not the sharp blade side, but 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:47.280 the other side, he delivers a blow to Joe's head. Joe, 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:49.559 I believe was lying on his back, even though Smithsonian 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:51.880 article says something different. Yeah, raise it so high he 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:55.440 even gouged the ceiling correct, Yeah, brought it down hard 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:59.040 on Joe's head. Probably killed him instantly from that one blow. 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:04.000 Then apparently he didn't disturb Sarah at all because he 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:06.360 did the same thing to her. And both of them 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:09.480 were found in a position that they would have been sleeping, 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:12.120 and there wasn't like the beg clothes weren't ruffled, There 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:16.080 wasn't their arm was enough to defend themselves. They died 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:19.880 in their sleep, it appeared, right. Yes, So he kills 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:24.440 the parents, um, either immediately or they they died, probably 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:27.760 pretty quickly, leaves the room and goes next door. And 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:30.959 this is really just almost too awful to talk about. 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:33.439 But he kills all the children in their sleep, one 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:36.840 by one, but again without waking any of them. Yeah, 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:42.880 by the time he got to the Stillinger girls downstairs, um, 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:46.640 it seemed evidence points to the fact that they may 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:50.520 have awakened. Finally one of them, the older one Linna 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:53.880 I believe is the older one, and then he dispatches 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:58.120 with both of them in the same manner. Yeah, grizzly, awful, 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:01.360 awful murder. So that's enough, right, This guy just went 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:04.200 around and murdered eight people, six of them children under 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:07.679 the age of twelve or twelve are under um with 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:10.880 the blunt end of an ax. That's bad enough, but 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:14.160 then it just gets a million times worse. And this 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:19.080 is probably why this ax murder is is just part 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:21.719 of American history, whether we like it or not. So 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:25.280 what the guy does next is, um, well, he took 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:28.120 the axe and he flips it over, and he takes 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:32.319 them the sharp side, and he goes around and he 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:38.720 starts bashing everybody's head in one by one. Um. Apparently 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:43.000 Joe was later found to have been struck as many 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:46.480 as thirty times in the head with the ax. Um, 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:50.559 just one by one. He went around and completely caved 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:53.320 in the head and face of all of his victims 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:57.480 methodically throughout the house after they were dead. Which is 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:01.480 a bizarre, horrible thing to do. Yeah, so then it 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:05.679 gets a little bit strange. He Um. He goes around 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:09.120 to the rooms and all over the house really and 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:14.240 does different things in each one. He covers windows with 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:17.120 sheets and things. He covers mirrors. All the mirrors in 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:19.199 the house are covered. He covered the faces of I 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:22.760 believe all the victims, right, yeah, one way or another. Um, 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:25.840 I believe all of their faces were covered with either 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:27.880 sheets or pillow cases, or I think in the case 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:30.880 of the girls, he pulled their dresses up over their faces. Yeah, 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:35.120 we'll talk about that in a second. Uh. Yeah, it's 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:41.600 very um, I think in the serial killer or psychopath mode, 0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:44.920 though I've heard of stuff like that before. Though right like, um, 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:49.560 you get the idea that they don't the murderer doesn't 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:52.880 want the victim looking at him. Yeah, which may also 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:56.199 explain why you bashed their faces in here, know. Um. 0:12:56.720 --> 0:13:02.120 So the guy apparently hang out for a little while. Um. 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:04.960 He does other weird things though. The bacon, he grabbed 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:07.880 a two pound slab of bacon, and I saw elsewhere 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:10.640 that there was another slab of bacon found in the house. 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:13.360 But there was at least one two pounds slab of 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:15.559 bacon that he wrapped in a dish towel and then 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:18.360 left on the floor of one of the bedrooms. There 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:21.120 was a bowl of bloody water that was later found 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:25.920 he washed himself off. He washed off the axe, um, 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:30.480 although he left it behind. Um. And he apparently hung 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:33.840 out for a little while in the house before leaving 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:38.680 sometime before five am. So the murders took place around 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:44.160 midnight and then come five am the house is dark 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:47.880 still it's five am, so that's not the weirdest thing. 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:51.000 Although we're talking about Iowa, so plenty of people were 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:54.880 up at five, including the neighbor, a woman named Mary Peckham, 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:58.840 and she noticed that, um, there wasn't anybody up at 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:00.959 the house, which was a little odd. It was a 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:05.040 Monday morning now, and um, by seven she thought it 0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:08.160 was just downright eerie that there was no sign of 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:10.319 life at the house. She went over and let the 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:13.760 Moore's chickens out so that they could pick around and feed. Um. 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:19.560 She called Joe Moore's um store and said, hey, has 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:22.640 Joe showed up and found from the employee that he hadn't. 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:25.680 And finally one of those two gets in touch with 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:29.400 a guy named Ross Moore, Joe Moore's brother, and Ross 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:32.960 comes over and unlocks the door. The front door is locked, 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:37.920 and um, he goes inside and he comes almost immediately 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:42.640 rushing back out, calling for the local marshal to be called. Yeah, 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:46.560 basically he gets Hank Horton is the marshall's name. He 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:49.560 gets him on the scene, and this this is where 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:52.560 things just kind of go berserk. It's it's such a 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:58.000 small town, such a grizzly crime. Um, any chances of 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:01.840 preserving a crime scene. And this is nineteen twelve. I 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:04.160 don't even know how much a small town like this 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:07.520 knows about preserving a crime scene at the time. Um, 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:11.720 but any hopes were lost within those first few hours 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:15.920 after the discovery, because by all accounts, there were a 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:18.760 hundred or more people that went through that house, from 0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:25.080 doctors to corners to investigators who just townspeople, right that 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:27.560 were allowed to just go in there and check things out. Yeah. 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:32.360 So the the first group that comes with the the uh, 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:37.440 the Marshal Hank Horton, right, was to two doctors and 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:41.800 a minister, Jay Clark Cooper, right, great doctor name j 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:46.080 Clark Cooper and Edgar Huff and Wesley Ewing who was 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:49.400 the minister of the church. They were the first contingent 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:52.760 to make it into the house after Rossmore came running out. Yeah. 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:55.440 So they go in and uh they know enough to 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:59.600 not disturb things too much. Another guy gets brought in, 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:04.520 um l A Linquist. He's the coroner. Uh. He tries 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:06.800 to take some notes about the crime scene. But the 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:10.720 person who um got the most information was another doctor. 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:15.680 His name was um Yeah F. S. Williams was the 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:18.560 one who examined the body and at a later in quest. 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:21.680 Um he had the most details to offer about the bodies, 0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:24.440 of positions, all that stuff, So when those guys walked in, 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:28.960 they were at least well versed enough to know not 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:32.800 disturbed things as much as possible, or at least more 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:35.920 than the towns people knew. And f S. Williams allegedly 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:39.800 came out of the house pretty shaken and said, don't 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:42.680 go in there, boys, well you'll regretted to your last day. 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:46.800 And the townspeople said, nuts to you. We're going inside. 0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:49.680 We want to see some dead bodies. And it probably 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:52.640 till their last day, yeah, because they not only messed 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:55.000 with the crimes and they poked around there was supposedly 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:58.320 the town drunk took fragments of Joe Moore's skull as 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:01.800 mementos like the The crime scene was toast, like you said, 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:04.080 if if it could have ever been preserved, it was toast. 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:08.439 And even the local druggist showed up with his camera 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:11.040 to help preserve the crime scene because he heard that 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:14.960 the townspeople were were tramping all over it. Um and 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:17.680 Ross Moore, not understanding what he was doing through the 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:19.960 guy out thought he was just being a ghoul. Trying 0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:23.159 to get pictures. So the crime scene is utterly and 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:29.320 completely lost. Yeah, and uh, one of the things about Valesca, 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:34.320 almost said Vassila, is that it was a train town. 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:36.720 There were about thirty trains every day that went through there. 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:40.600 And so by this time, unless this person was local 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:44.520 and maybe hiding out locally, by all accounts, the murderer 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:46.560 had probably hopped the train was out of there at 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:49.399 that time, but they didn't They didn't realize this until 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:53.840 they had already released some bloodhounds. They searched the countryside. Um, 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:57.760 there was like a pretty pretty big search to find 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:00.200 whoever did this, and they didn't find any. And so 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:04.359 the town was just terrified. Town of two thousand people, 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:07.480 eight including six children, had just been murdered with an 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:09.720 ax in your town. And now the sun is starting 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:12.000 to go down and nobody's been caught. All right, So 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:13.760 let's take a break and we'll come back and talk 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:43.600 about suspect number one right after this. Okay, So suspect 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:46.720 number one, UM might be a little surprising when you 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:52.199 first hear that he was a state senator, very um 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:56.399 well well well respected by some as a local businessman, 0:18:57.080 --> 0:19:01.360 and um a very prominent Methodist. It seems the town 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:06.040 was pretty sharply divided between Methodist and Presbyterian. You know 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:10.800 those days, and that stuff mattered to those people. Um, 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:18.879 and his name was Frank Jones, and uh, Methodists immediately said, no, uh, 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:21.880 he's he's got to be innocent. This is a fine 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:24.840 upstanding member of our church. Presbyterians are like, now, it's 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:27.399 got to be him. Uh. And at first I was like, well, 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:29.000 why would it be the state centator? None of this 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:32.560 makes sense. There were a couple of big things that 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:36.000 made people believe that he could be the guy. Joe 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:39.480 Moore worked for him for seven years and was one 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:44.560 of his best salesman on his farm equipment team, and 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:48.840 apparently he left in nineteen o seven uh and was 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:51.400 not too happy with the work hours, which were sixteen 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:55.040 hour days, six days a week. Who would be it's 0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:58.040 like us um, and then set up a rival business 0:19:58.200 --> 0:20:01.320 and even took one of the clients, the John Deer Company. 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:03.600 Yeah that was a big one. I'm sure so big 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:08.880 that UM. When Sarah Peckham called, Uh, Joe Moore's UM 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:12.880 employee to tell him the news, Joe Moore's employee called 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:14.920 the John Deer people in Omaha to let them know 0:20:15.960 --> 0:20:18.679 they were like the third people called after the bodies 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:21.280 were discovered. So he takes John Deer with him. Um. 0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:26.320 So this set up an obvious rivalry and uh, worse 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:29.080 than that apparently, um. And I don't know if this 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:32.399 is super confirmed, but at least the rumor was that 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:36.840 Joe Moore had slept with Jones's daughter in law. From 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:39.359 what I understand, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that's 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:42.800 been that's understood is true. That's true. So sleuch with 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:46.040 his daughter in law who apparently kind of had several 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:50.639 affairs in town and was not very discreet. Yeah, apparently, 0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:53.520 according to Mike Dash at Smithsony and she used to 0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:59.200 set up her um, her meet and greets over the phone. 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:02.520 It's called ason. Oh that's right, um over the phone. 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:04.240 And this was at a time when there was a 0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:08.840 switchboard operator running the phones in the town, sat there 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:12.480 and listen. Yeah, and this lady obviously didn't care. So um. 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:15.760 Apparently it was pretty well known that that Joe Moore 0:21:15.840 --> 0:21:18.800 had had an affair with F F. Jones daughter in 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:22.440 law was huge. You put those two things together and friends, 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:24.960 the fact that apparently they used to cross to the 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:27.640 other side of the street to keep from from from 0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:32.400 encountering one another. Um that that's that's a big deal 0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:36.360 in that town. You small town, right, So suspicion fell 0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:38.960 on to f apparently from what I understand, within a 0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:42.720 couple hours of the bodies being discovered. Yeah, And and 0:21:42.880 --> 0:21:45.359 suspicion not that he may have done it, that Jones 0:21:45.520 --> 0:21:48.119 was actually the killer. But maybe Jones because he was 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:51.919 fifty seven years old and probably had some pretty good money. Clearly, 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:53.880 Oh yeah, he was wealthy. He was building a bank, 0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:57.000 overseeing his new bank being built when he got the 0:21:57.040 --> 0:21:59.000 news of the bodies. When you're building the bank, you're 0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:02.280 you're rolling in. Yeah. So everyone thought that he probably 0:22:02.359 --> 0:22:05.200 hired somebody out to kill him. Uh. And there was 0:22:05.320 --> 0:22:09.400 a very Burns detective agency. Um that was a detective 0:22:09.440 --> 0:22:11.840 named James Wilkerson who said, you know what, I think, 0:22:11.840 --> 0:22:13.560 you're right. I think he hired someone. I think that 0:22:13.640 --> 0:22:18.800 man's name was William Mansfield, William Blackie Mansfield. It was already, 0:22:19.320 --> 0:22:22.879 Um no, he wasn't already. He would later be I believe, 0:22:22.960 --> 0:22:27.320 convicted of an axe murder himself. Yeah, which is probably 0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:30.200 one of the chief reasons he was suspect. Well, no, 0:22:30.400 --> 0:22:32.639 that that came a couple of years after. I believe 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:36.679 that was fourteen or fifteen that he murdered his wife, 0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:41.119 her parents, and their child, their child, his childet with 0:22:41.240 --> 0:22:43.760 an ax right to see. I was a bad dude. 0:22:44.200 --> 0:22:48.159 But there was one problem with James Wilkerson's theory. Blackie 0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:53.160 Mansfield had um an air tight alibi. He was in Illinois, 0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:56.600 hundreds of miles away when the crimes occurred. Not only 0:22:56.720 --> 0:23:00.280 did the foreman vouch for him, but the payroll chords 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:04.160 showed very clearly that he had not been in Viliska 0:23:04.280 --> 0:23:07.240 that day, um, and couldn't have done it. Yeah, so 0:23:07.400 --> 0:23:11.359 he was exonerated, but um, a lot of townspeople still 0:23:12.000 --> 0:23:14.159 thought that that. You know how it was back then 0:23:14.400 --> 0:23:16.639 and still is today to a certain degree, sure, especially 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:18.639 in a small town. Yeah, people were convinced that he 0:23:18.760 --> 0:23:20.399 was a guy, and a lot of people probably went 0:23:20.440 --> 0:23:23.320 to their graves thinking that. So even though Chuck that 0:23:23.480 --> 0:23:26.359 Mansfield was exonerated, and and like you said, a lot 0:23:26.400 --> 0:23:30.000 of people thought that um Jones F Jones apparently went 0:23:30.080 --> 0:23:33.040 by f um did have something to do with it. 0:23:33.440 --> 0:23:36.280 That still in your girls, father and Ross Moore, Joe 0:23:36.359 --> 0:23:41.080 Moore's brother both thought F. Jones was behind this, um 0:23:41.680 --> 0:23:44.760 and and Wilkinson made it like his personal mission to 0:23:44.880 --> 0:23:49.440 take Jones down and apparently ruined his his political career, 0:23:49.560 --> 0:23:51.960 cost him re election to the state Senate. I would 0:23:51.960 --> 0:23:55.800 think that probably happened anyway, just from suspicion. But maybe. 0:23:55.880 --> 0:23:59.760 But I think like there's something between townspeople suspecting you 0:24:00.240 --> 0:24:04.320 and a detective like bringing evidence against you and getting 0:24:04.320 --> 0:24:07.200 a grand jury to indict you. It was like the 0:24:07.280 --> 0:24:08.919 good old days when you could be suspected of an 0:24:09.080 --> 0:24:11.360 x murder and still win a Senate seat, right exactly, 0:24:11.960 --> 0:24:16.359 Um the uh the But Jones he didn't win re 0:24:16.520 --> 0:24:21.200 election and uh yeah, apparently to their dying day, some 0:24:21.320 --> 0:24:25.280 people assumed that it was him behind it. Another candidate, 0:24:26.080 --> 0:24:33.439 candidate suspect candidates not the right word, Uh Lynn George 0:24:33.600 --> 0:24:37.879 Jacqueline Kelly, Uh, the man with four names. He went 0:24:37.960 --> 0:24:42.360 by George Kelly though. He was an Englishman, um, which 0:24:42.440 --> 0:24:45.000 is probably a little weird at the time, be living there, 0:24:45.160 --> 0:24:48.320