1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: Your Mind Listener Mail. I am Joe McCormick, and my 4 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: regular co host Robert Lamb is off work the weekend 5 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: recording this, So like last Monday, I'm gonna be recording 6 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: another listener Mail episode, so low but never fear. Rob 7 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: will be rejoining me and we'll have some fresh new 8 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: episodes for you sometime later this week. But for today, 9 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: I'm going to dive right into a few of the 10 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:42,520 Speaker 1: messages that you've sent in over the past cycle. Looks 11 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 1: like this. First one comes from Chris. Chris says, hey, guys, 12 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 1: love the show. Something that blew my mind recently has 13 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 1: to do with evolution. Here it goes in the ancient 14 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: timeline of life on Earth, sharks are older than trees. 15 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: I always thought of plants as first. Knowing that sharks 16 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: were swimming around for a hundred million years before there 17 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 1: were even trees blew my mind. Thanks Chris, Chris. Yeah, 18 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: I I love stuff like this. So to fill in 19 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,479 Speaker 1: some detail on this claim, I would say that this 20 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: statement is true, though it depends a little bit on 21 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: how strict your definitions of a shark are um there 22 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: there's some debate, I guess, about what counts as evidence 23 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,839 Speaker 1: of the first shark. But for reference, I just looked 24 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: up the timeline summarized by the Natural History Museum of London, 25 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: and according to them, there are a few fossil scales 26 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: that appear to come from shark like animals, dating all 27 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:42,680 Speaker 1: the way back to the Ordovician period, So that's four 28 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty million years ago, which is mind bogglingly old. 29 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: The Ortivician is the first geologic period after the Cambrian, 30 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: and if you remember, we've done episodes on this in 31 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: the past, the Cambrian is when we first see the 32 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: explosion in divers city of animal body plans, animal body 33 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: plans with hard parts that leave fossil traces, and so 34 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: this is the age of the triobytes, of course famously, 35 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:14,359 Speaker 1: but also these these amazing creatures like Anomala carress, this undulating, 36 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: soft bodied predator with a ring shaped crusher mouth and 37 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: little face tentacles that look like shrimp anomal a caress 38 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: actually means anomalous shrimp or weird shrimp. And uh creatures 39 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: like Hallucigenia, which is the wandering spike worm. Uh and 40 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: so so that's the Cambrian. But then after that we 41 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: enter the Ordovician period and there we yes, we do 42 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: see evidence of scales, but not teeth. But the scales 43 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 1: look like they may have belonged to some kind of 44 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: ancestral shark or creature that that overtime became sharks. So 45 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: that evidence is is a maybe. But then by the 46 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: early Devonian period, about four and ten million years ago, 47 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: there is clear fossil evidence of shark teeth from a 48 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: fish called Dolotas problematicus, which was beginning to show some 49 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: of the signs of shark like anatomy, such as in 50 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: the teeth and the jaw. And there's another early shark 51 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: from the Devonian that I was reading about that I 52 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: think we don't know much about, but it's called Leonotas 53 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: l e O n O d u s. And the 54 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: the only thing that I could really find about this 55 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: one had to do with its teeth. If you get 56 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: a chance, you should look up the teeth of the 57 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: Leonoda shark. These creatures were about four million years old, 58 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: and its teeth are not the serrated triangles or or 59 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: the murder spikes you might think of in in shark 60 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: mouth today. These look like well they look like the 61 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: devil horns. They look like somebody in a metal show 62 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: they go, they throw up the devil horns. They're these 63 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: little y shaped forks, which makes me wonder what kind 64 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: of prey this animal was eating. What do you bite 65 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 1: with a bunch of little spiky, y shaped forks? I 66 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: don't know. But meanwhile, the evolution of trees is also 67 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: an interesting subject. I think the first things we would 68 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: identify as trees, meaning tall vascular plants on dry land 69 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: with woody stems. These show up I think in the 70 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,599 Speaker 1: mid to late Devonian period, so maybe around three hundred 71 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: ninety to three hundred and eighty million years ago, somewhere 72 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: in that range. And in fact, the proliferation of land plants, 73 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 1: including trees during the mid to late Devonian is one 74 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:35,799 Speaker 1: of the hypothesized causes of the big mass extinction event 75 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: that happened at the end of the Devonian period. Now, 76 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: of course, this is not a settled issue. There are 77 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: a bunch of different ideas about what could have caused it. Uh, 78 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: you know, you have the regular culprits, things like US 79 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: impacts from space or a massive volcanic eruptions. Um. But 80 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: at least one idea that has been advanced is that 81 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: as the continents were covered in plants and forests during 82 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: the Devonian and as as the land turn green, suddenly 83 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 1: a large amount of the carbon in the atmosphere was removed. 84 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: Because remember this really weird fact. Plants the parts of 85 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: plants that is not water, that is mostly built out 86 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: of atoms that were originally in the air. So carbon, 87 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: the carbon in wood in a tree trunk comes from 88 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: atmospheric c O two that plants ingest and then they 89 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: use the energy from sunlight to power the chemical reaction 90 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 1: uh we know as photosynthesis, So it reacts CEO two 91 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: with water to produce carbohydrates and oxygen as a byproduct. 92 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 1: So you have the proliferation of forests that might have 93 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,799 Speaker 1: removed a bunch of carbon from the atmosphere to cause 94 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: a sort of anti greenhouse effect leading to deadly rapid cooling. 95 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: But again, there are other possible explanations for the for 96 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: the late Devonian extinctions, so we don't really know for sure. However, 97 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: one last cool thing to notice when you put sharks 98 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: and trees side by side, so it does look like 99 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 1: the sharks came first. But the other thing to notice 100 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: is that they both appear to have had a sort 101 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:15,239 Speaker 1: of flourishing age of diversification and dominance in the period 102 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 1: right after the Devonian, which is known as the Carboniferous 103 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: So the Carboniferous period lasted from roughly three hundred and 104 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: sixty to about three hundred million years ago, and it 105 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 1: is named after the fact that this is the geologic 106 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 1: strata that we first find packed with lots of coal. 107 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: Carboniferous means coal carrying or full of coal, and coal 108 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: is of course a form of fossil carbon that came 109 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 1: largely from dead plant matter, including trees, especially trees that 110 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: grew in low lying wetlands and swamps. So in these 111 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: vast uh you know, continents full of low lying wetlands 112 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: and wet forests and swamps, you'd have plants dying they 113 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 1: fall down there there, or carbon content it's fossilized into coal, 114 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: and then of course in the industrial revolution we we 115 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: dig that up and that that turns into the energy 116 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: that powers the development of modern civilization. But the Carboniferous 117 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: period is also sometimes called the Golden Age of sharks. 118 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: That same article I was looking at by the by 119 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: the London Natural History Museum referred to it as the 120 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: Golden Age of sharks. There's a great question why did 121 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: sharks thrive in this period? Why this great diversification of sharks? 122 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: And that's not known for sure. But one idea that 123 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: I was reading at a great website called Elasmo research 124 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 1: dot org. That's a shark science website that I think 125 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: is mostly or entirely authored by a marine biologist named 126 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: our Aiden Martin. I was reading on that site the 127 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: idea that possibly sharks thrived in this period because at 128 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: the at the Late Devonian extinction, another group of marine 129 00:07:56,080 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: predators called the plaquaderms were wiped out. The plaqueoderms, if 130 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: you've never seen pictures of them, you should definitely look 131 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:08,239 Speaker 1: them up there. They're great. They were armored fishes fish 132 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: fish you would see with like plates around their head 133 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 1: and sort of plate like jaws and mouths. Uh So, 134 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: one good one to look up is called dunk Leosteus 135 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: d U N K l e O S t e 136 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: U S. Dunk Leosteus. And if you can find an 137 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: image with a human for scale, or even better, if 138 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: you can stand next to an arrangement of their armored 139 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,719 Speaker 1: head plates in a museum. It's a nightmare. You know. 140 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: I would much rather face down a great white shark 141 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: or I don't know, maybe even a megalodon. Is something 142 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:45,679 Speaker 1: about it's it's it's terrifying and awesome. But but the 143 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: idea is that maybe with the competition of these plaqueoderms 144 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: gone because they were wiped out at the end of 145 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: the Devonian, maybe then sharks could expand and fill new 146 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: niches and diversify. So anyway, thanks for kicking this off, Chris, 147 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: but I wanted to give you an another one. So, yes, 148 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 1: it appears sharks are older than trees. But did you 149 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: know that mammals are older than bees. As with the 150 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: previous case, there's some debate about where where you should start, 151 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: you know what, at what point on the lineage you 152 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: should say, okay, now these are mammals, because of course 153 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: mammals are part of a lineage going back to the 154 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: synapsids that lived even before the dinosaurs, you know, the 155 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 1: dimetrodon So again you could debate about the where the 156 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: best place to put their beginning is. But small furry 157 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: sort of rodent ish critters that we would probably recognize 158 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: as mammals existed during the reign of dinosaurs, with a 159 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: number of fossils from the Jurassic Period between about a 160 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty and two hundred million years ago. Meanwhile, 161 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: bees pop up later I think closer to a hundred 162 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: and thirty million years ago. Anyway, thank you, Chris. Okay, 163 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,839 Speaker 1: this next message comes from Steven and it's in Risk 164 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 1: wants to the series we did on thirst. Steven says, 165 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: Dear Joe and Rob. As a recent microbiology graduate, I 166 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: was delighted when you started talking about rabies, the horse 167 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: hair worm and their relationships with their hosts thirst, and 168 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: I remember that this was in the context of us 169 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 1: talking about ways that UH disease causing pathogens and parasites 170 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: will alter the host behavior in order to help themselves 171 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: spread or reach another part of their their life cycle. 172 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: So in the same way that a respiratory infection will 173 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: make you cough and sneeze and spit more of the 174 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: germs onto other people to to to spread it around faster, 175 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: the rabies virus causes a series of behavioral modifications that 176 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: that help it spread through bite. So you get bitten 177 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 1: by an animal with rabies um and the the infected 178 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,559 Speaker 1: saliva put some of the virus into your muscle tissue, 179 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: it spreads to the nervous system. Uh that that is 180 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,559 Speaker 1: facilitated by the fact that rabies tends to cause a 181 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: kind of confusion, irritability aggression in its later stages, and 182 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: that it makes it hard for the host to swallow, 183 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 1: so it can't the The person or animal that's infected 184 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 1: has difficulty or even finds it impossible to drink water, 185 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 1: un thus can't wash all this infectious saliva out of 186 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: its mouth, so each bite is supercharged as a vector 187 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: of new infection. But Steven goes on to say, I 188 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: thought I would add to the conversation with another interesting 189 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 1: parasite that hijacks our need for water. The guinea worm 190 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: is a parasitic worm whose life cycle depends on close 191 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: proximity to water. As larvae, they spend their developmental years 192 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: in the stomachs of aquatic copa pods that try to 193 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 1: eat them. It isn't until they're consumed by larger animals 194 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: e g. Humans that they can bust through our stomach 195 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 1: lining and develop into adulthood while taking residents just under 196 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: our skin. However, once the alt worm has set up 197 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 1: camp under our skin. How does it get larvae back 198 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,839 Speaker 1: out into the world to begin the cycle again? If 199 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: I remember correctly, the best cure for this disease is 200 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: a simple stick with a notch at the end. The 201 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: worm's tail is inserted in the notch and spooled out 202 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: of the patient, much like a noodle being twirled into 203 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,319 Speaker 1: a fork. Of course, one can use a coffee filter 204 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:26,119 Speaker 1: to remove copa pods from drinking water, preventing infection altogether. 205 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,599 Speaker 1: Thanks for making such an informative and entertaining podcast. Sincerely, 206 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: Stephen PS. Rob is right. Rabies is effectively one fatal 207 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: if not vaccinated against before symptoms come on. However, there 208 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: is one case of rabies being cured by a procedure 209 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: called the Milwaukee Protocol. It seemed to have been a fluke, though, 210 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: but it's an interesting enough topic to read about when 211 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: you get the time. Well, Stephen, thank you for the message. 212 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: Actually did look into this into the Milwaukee Protocol, and 213 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 1: I found an explanation in a paper called Failure of 214 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: the Milwaukee Protocol and a Child with Rabies, published in 215 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 1: Clinical Infectious Diseases in two thousand eleven by Angela Arum Burrow. 216 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:15,839 Speaker 1: At all. So this paper is looking at rabies encephalitis, 217 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: and this is the phase of Raby's infection where the 218 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: virus has reached the central nervous system. Now, remember the 219 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:27,319 Speaker 1: normal courses that you're probably bitten by an infected animals, 220 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: say somewhere in the body, maybe on the hand, and 221 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: then viral particles from the saliva of that animal get 222 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: into your muscle tissue, they infect nerve cells, and then 223 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: they climb gradually up the nerve pathways until they finally 224 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: reached the spinal cord in the brain. Now, remember that 225 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:47,479 Speaker 1: Rabies typically has a long incubation period. There can potentially 226 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: be months between the initial exposure and the onset of 227 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: symptoms with encephalitis. Rabies encephalitis may in fact be one 228 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: of the worst and most deadly diseases you could imagine, 229 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: and but it is pretty much entirely preventable if you 230 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: seek treatment immediately after you get bitten or otherwise exposed. 231 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:11,680 Speaker 1: And the treatment is referred to in the literature as 232 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: post exposure prophylaxis or PEP. And in fact, we've got 233 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 1: some more listener mail coming up in a bit with 234 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: direct experience with PEP. But anyway, the authors of this 235 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: paper from two thousand eleven right that before two thousand four, 236 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: there were only five documented cases of anyone ever surviving 237 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: rabies and sephalitis, and all five of them were people 238 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: who received some form of PEP, though they ended up 239 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: reaching the encephalitis phase because the prophylaxis was maybe incomplete 240 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: or late. But in the year two thousand four, some 241 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: doctors reported the first ever survival of rabies and sephalitis 242 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: without any PEP. This was in a child who had 243 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 1: received what they called the Milwaukee Protocol, which is a 244 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: combination h that they describe the following way. They say, 245 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: it's quote therapeutic coma, anti viral therapy, cerebral vaseo spasm management, 246 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: and avoidance of immunization. Now, unfortunately, it looks to me 247 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: like attempts to reproduce this outcome in other patients have 248 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: all failed, including in the case documented in this two 249 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: thousand eleven paper. They tried the Milwaukee protocol, it didn't work. 250 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: So it's possible that, as Stephen says, the time it 251 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: looked like it worked in two thousand four, was some 252 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 1: kind of outlier or some kind of fluke and and 253 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: not a demonstration of any underlying usefulness in the therapy 254 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: um and I've actually seen at least one more recent 255 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: paper just discouraging its use altogether. We've got another message 256 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: from Nate concerning treatment for rabies, and it goes like this, 257 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: Robert and Joe love the show. I was listening to 258 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: your episodes on Thurst and thought i'd share my experience 259 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: with the rabies vaccine. Back in I had contact with 260 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 1: a bat that found its way into my condo. I 261 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: got it out of my place and wasn't too worried 262 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: about it until my friend described how terrible rabies really is. 263 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: I'm relatively certain that I wasn't bitten, but I went 264 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 1: to the doctor anyway. The doctor decided to give me 265 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: the vaccine to be cautious. The vaccine consisted of one 266 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: shot in each arm and one shot in each thigh, 267 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: followed by three more follow up visits with one shot 268 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: in the arm. The first few days after the initial dose, 269 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: I started to feel some flu like symptoms. Flu like 270 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: symptoms also happened to be the early signs of rabies. 271 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: At that time, I wasn't aware that vaccine side effects 272 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: are relatively common, so that resulted in a pretty stressful 273 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: couple of days. However, after the side effects went away, 274 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 1: everything was good. Then my bill arrived for the vaccine. 275 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: The pre insurance cost listed on the bill was thirty 276 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: seven thousand dollars. It was so unbelievable that seven shots 277 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: could be listed anywhere near that price. Luckily, my insurance 278 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 1: covered most of it, but I still ended up paying 279 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: about sevent dollars for the vaccines. I'm sure this pales 280 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: in comparison with some other drugs, such as treatments for 281 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 1: cancer and HIV and so forth, but it was pretty 282 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 1: mind blowing how expensive it was. It's not the wildest story, 283 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: but just thought i'd share. You guys have a great show. 284 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: Thanks for all the entertainment over the last few years. Nate, Well, Nate, 285 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: I'm I'm glad to hear you all right now. I'm 286 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: I'm very glad in any case, that you didn't get 287 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 1: rabies and cephalitis and uh. And obviously it's good that 288 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:37,880 Speaker 1: you had health insurance, but that that is an astonishing bill. 289 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,679 Speaker 1: I actually looked into this topic a bit, and I 290 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 1: found an article exploring exactly this question, like why is 291 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: rabies prophylaxis so expensive and why does the cost of 292 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:53,399 Speaker 1: it very so much so. This was an article called 293 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 1: why a simple life saving raby shot can cost ten 294 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: thousand dollars in America published in vox In by the 295 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: healthcare reporter Sarah Cliff. I think she's at the New 296 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: York Times now, but I've read a number of her 297 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 1: articles about health healthcare in the US and uh and 298 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: they're good. But in this article, so the background is 299 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 1: that apparently there are just a lot of cases in 300 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: the US where people end up in medical debt after 301 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 1: a possible rabies exposure. And the article starts with the 302 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: story of a college student who literally had a bat 303 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: fly into her mouth while she was trying to shoot 304 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 1: it out of her apartment. Uh. So she goes to 305 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 1: an urgent care and there they describes what happened. They 306 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: refer her to an emergency room for treatment. This was 307 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,640 Speaker 1: somewhere in New Hampshire. And then in the end, the 308 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,399 Speaker 1: bills she got for the full treatment was over six 309 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. And somehow this is on the low end 310 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 1: of the cost range for for rabies p EP in 311 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 1: the United States. The article claims that many bills are 312 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: in the range of ten thousand dollars which of course 313 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: is enormous, but obviously nowhere near your UH pre insurance 314 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,239 Speaker 1: bill of thirty seven thousands. So I really don't know 315 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 1: what makes the difference in your case, especially since US 316 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 1: healthcare costs are often rather opaque UM. But according to Cliff, 317 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 1: the main itemized cost of these treatments is usually a 318 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 1: drug called immunoglobulin, which is designed to slow the spread 319 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: of the rabies virus in its progression towards the central 320 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: nervous system, which gives the body time to learn from 321 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: the vaccine and fight the infection. And UH immunoglobulin is 322 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: allegedly expensive to produce because it has to be manufactured 323 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: using human blood, which has to be pre screened for disease. 324 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,479 Speaker 1: So I guess it's a complicated process. But there are 325 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 1: other major expenses for rabies treatment, sometimes because you have 326 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 1: to go for multiple follow up visits and so there 327 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: can be these hospital facility fees which get charged to 328 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 1: people for showing up in the emergency room or at 329 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: the clinic multiple times. But based on what this article 330 00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: describes it, it just seems like, you know, it's a 331 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 1: say situation where the patient is kind of in a bind, 332 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: like if you have potentially been exposed to rabies, you 333 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: have to get the treatment. You really need these vaccines 334 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: because they're extremely effective and untreated rabies is basically a 335 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 1: hundred percent fatal, so you can't afford to just roll 336 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: the dice and hope you won't get it. Uh. So 337 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,159 Speaker 1: it seems like drug manufacturers here have a lot of 338 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: leeway in what they can charge and still sell plenty 339 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 1: of the drugs. So apparently the same drug can have 340 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: wildly different prices depending on where you get it. Cliffs 341 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,640 Speaker 1: article compares costs of identical rabies drugs in the US 342 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: and other countries, and the ones in the US are 343 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: sometimes like six times more than what the same drug 344 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: costs in the UK. Though obviously in the UK, uh, 345 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 1: there's another difference, which is the government will cover the 346 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 1: direct cost to the drug rather than the patient. Um. 347 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:51,879 Speaker 1: But anyway, to come back on this, though, that is 348 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: a pretty unpleasant state of affairs that you can end 349 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: up with like a ten thousand dollar bill there. Uh, 350 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: you shouldn't let that discourage you from seeking treatment if 351 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: you think you might have been exposed to rabies, because again, 352 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: untreated rabies always ends in death, and it's a horrible death. 353 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 1: So if you think it's possible, you've got to get 354 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,120 Speaker 1: to a doctor as soon as you can. But anyway, 355 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: this whole story reminded me of something else I was 356 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: reading about recently, which is a totally different but complementary 357 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:23,199 Speaker 1: approach to fighting the impact of rabies on on on 358 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: human society. And this intervention is attempting to intervene before 359 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: infection occurs by vaccinating wild animals against rabies. So in 360 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: the United States, most people who are exposed to the 361 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,439 Speaker 1: rabies virus apparently get it from domestic animals like cats 362 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:45,239 Speaker 1: and dogs, which in turn get infected through encounters with 363 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: wild animals like raccoons, skunks, bats, coyotes, and foxes. So 364 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: at any given time, the vast majority of disease carriers 365 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: are not humans or domestic animals, but wild animals um 366 00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: And so if you could cut down on the rates 367 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: of an infection among wild animals, that would downstream cut 368 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,360 Speaker 1: down on the rates of infection and exposure among domestic 369 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 1: animals and humans. So I was reading about a series 370 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: of programs by the U. S Department of Agriculture, Animal 371 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: and Plant Health Inspection Service Wildlife Services. That's a lot 372 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 1: of words to essentially seed the wilderness with bait containing 373 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: oral rabies vaccine UH and note that this type of 374 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: vaccine is not nearly as expensive as the UH the 375 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 1: full human p EP course. But to read from the U. 376 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: S d A website on this program, quote oral rabies 377 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: vaccination or o r V bait is distributed to wildlife 378 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: in targeted areas. This edible bait consists of a satchet 379 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: or plastic packet containing the raboral VRG rabies vaccine. To 380 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: make the bait attractive to wildlife, the sachets containing the 381 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 1: vaccine are sprinkled with fishmeal coating, or encased inside hard 382 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: fish meal polymer blocks about the size of a matchbox. 383 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,719 Speaker 1: Each year, w S I guess it's Wildlife Services and 384 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: cooperators distribute about six point five million bits in selected 385 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: states to create a zone where raccoon rabies can be contained. 386 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,400 Speaker 1: And I think they've been doing programs like this since 387 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: the nineties. They claim that for every dollar spent on 388 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: the wild r V program, and estimate of somewhere between 389 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 1: four dollars and thirteen dollars are saved in costs associated 390 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 1: with rabies transmission into into humans and domestic animals down 391 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 1: the line, So that sounds like a great intervention. Okay. 392 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: One last response to our episodes on thirst. This one 393 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: comes from Kenny. Kenny says, Hi, Rob and Joe. I 394 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: really enjoyed the first two episodes on thirst. I particularly 395 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 1: like the discussion around the neural and endocrine systems the 396 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,680 Speaker 1: body uses to maintain the osmolarity of our blood. Since 397 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: you only had time to touch on this, I thought 398 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: I would write in about the mechanism by which the 399 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 1: kidneys helped to regulate blood volume and osmotic concentration. I 400 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: know it's an odd thing to find mind blowing, but 401 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: it's one of those topics I remember most clearly from 402 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: my biomedical science degree in the late nineties. Each kidney 403 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: contains about a million structures called nephrons. The initial elements 404 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: of the nephron filter the blood, then reabsorb everything you 405 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 1: want to keep, like glucose, amino acids and much of 406 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: the water. The clever part happens when the filtrate enters 407 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 1: a structure called the loop of Henley and descends into 408 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: the renal medulla deep within the kidney. The function of 409 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 1: the loop is to create an osmo larity gradient within 410 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 1: the surrounding interstitial tissue. It does this through the active 411 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: transport of sodium chloride, meaning salt and water. The osmotic 412 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: concentration of blood is about three hundred milla osmals per leader, 413 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 1: but the interstitial fluid in the medulla is extremely hypertonic, 414 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: so very salty, and can be as high as twelve 415 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 1: hundred mill osmoles per leader. Once through the ascending arm 416 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: of the loop, the filtrate is again extremely dilute and 417 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: can have an osmotic concentration as low as seventy two 418 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: a hundred when it enters the collecting duct. This duct 419 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: passes straight down through the osmolarity gradient. If you are dehydrated, 420 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: then anti diuretic hormone acts upon the collecting duct to 421 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,120 Speaker 1: make it permeable to water. As the filtrate descends through 422 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: the osmolality gradient, more and more water diffuses through the 423 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 1: vessel walls by osmosis, pulled through by the higher concentration 424 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: of salts in the surrounding tissue. The more dehydrated you are, 425 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: the more permeable the collecting duct, and the more concentrated 426 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: the resulting urine. So despite the extreme tonicity of our 427 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: most concentrated urine. It is in fact slightly hypotonic compared 428 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: to the interstitial environment it passed through. In fact, the 429 00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: collecting duct is permeable to urea, which some of which 430 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: diffuses out of the duck's lower reaches and further increases 431 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 1: the osmilarity of the surrounding fluid. On the other hand, 432 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: if you've drunk so much water that you squelch when 433 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,120 Speaker 1: you walk, a d H is almost absent, and that's 434 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: anti diuretic hormone. A d H is almost absent, and 435 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 1: the collecting duct becomes almost impermeable to water, which means 436 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,880 Speaker 1: that the filtrate will pass straight through as extremely dilute, 437 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 1: almost colorless urine. The nature of the structure means that 438 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: there is a hard limit to how concentrated humans can 439 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 1: make their urine. We're not as good at retaining water 440 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 1: as mammo's more adapted to arid conditions. A camel has 441 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 1: large numbers of long loops of hinley, which allows it 442 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: to maintain a hypertonic environment in its renal medulla with 443 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: a concentration of more than double that of a human. 444 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: This means that the camel can produce exceptionally concentrated urine 445 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: and retain water for longer. I was also fascinated by 446 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: your discussion on the taste of water. I live in Scotland, 447 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,719 Speaker 1: famous for rain mountains and deep locks. The water from 448 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: our taps is so good, but we are rightly appalled 449 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,360 Speaker 1: by the sorry state of the stuff that comes out 450 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 1: of the taps south of the border, I guess in England. 451 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: My aunt lives in the south of England, where the 452 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: geology is completely different, and I used to dread the 453 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: tap water down there. It didn't exactly taste of farts, 454 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 1: but it's deeply unpleasant and I never found it refreshing 455 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: at all. The high levels of calcium and magnesium in 456 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,640 Speaker 1: the water, especially around London, where the water is very hard. Indeed, 457 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,679 Speaker 1: I mean the dishwashers and washing machines can end up 458 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 1: with serious limescale build ups. Anyway, that's more than enough 459 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 1: for me. Thanks for all you do, Kenny, uh and 460 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: then Kenny also includes a little cartoon mocking the taste 461 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: of English tap water. Well, Kenny, thank you for the message, 462 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: the the interesting anatomical notes, but also yeah, I traveled 463 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,360 Speaker 1: England with my wife Rachel a few years back. And 464 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: it was a great trip. Uh. England is a wonderful 465 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: country with many treasures. But yes, I distinctly remember the 466 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,199 Speaker 1: tap water tasted so wrong. It it was like it 467 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,679 Speaker 1: had been steeped in a barrel full of chalk and 468 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: discarded latex gloves. But no disrespect to England. Uh. You know, 469 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,439 Speaker 1: London is a place of fractal delights. And while we 470 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: were there, we also went down to the Jurassic Coast 471 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 1: and walked around with the wild ammonite fossils um, which 472 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 1: is just great and one of my favorite feelings is 473 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: is finding a fossil in its original exposure setting in 474 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: the outdoors before somebody removes it to a collection or 475 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: a museum. Uh. And if you've never done that, the 476 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,719 Speaker 1: Jurassic Coast is great. It's got ammonites and things all 477 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: over there. But I also recommend I've mentioned this on 478 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: the show before, but the the hikes they offer to 479 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 1: the trilobite beds of the Burgess Shale in the Canadian Rockies. 480 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: That's one of my all time favorite excursions. Just magical. Anyway, 481 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: I think that is going to be it for today's 482 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 1: episode of Listener Mail, but we will be back to 483 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 1: talk to you again soon. Hey. If you're new to 484 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: the show, once again, This is the Stuff to Blow 485 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: Your Mind podcast. This is listener Mail, which we do 486 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: every Monday, but we do core science and culture episodes 487 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 1: on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We do short form episodes on Wednesdays, 488 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 1: and then on Fridays, Rob and I usually do a 489 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: casual episode that we call Weird House Cinema where we 490 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: just talk about a weird movie, usually a monster movie 491 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: or something from one of the genres. Uh. 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Stuff to Blow 502 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: Your Mind is a production of I Heart Radio. For 503 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the i Heart 504 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 505 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: favorite shows