1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: Conversations on life, style, beauty, and relationships. It's The Velvet's 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: Edge Podcast with Kelly Henderson. 3 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 2: John Stilimparus is a psychotherapist, author, and teacher. His work 4 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:21,279 Speaker 2: focuses on grief, counseling, depression, addiction and recovery, anxiety disorders 5 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 2: like OCD, PTSD, phobias, and panic disorders. His new book, 6 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 2: The Magic in the Tragic is rewriting the script on 7 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 2: grief and discovering happiness in our darkest days. Hi John, Hello, 8 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:35,840 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being here. 9 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. 10 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 2: I want to start this conversation by just talking about 11 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 2: the fact that you're really addressing the conversation around grief 12 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 2: in such a different way than I've ever heard discussed publicly. 13 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 2: I think one of the most impactful things in your 14 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 2: book was just kind of breaking that down and helping 15 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 2: people to understand what grief really is. And I wanted 16 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 2: to start by just asking you, we will all experience 17 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 2: grief in our lives. Correct. 18 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 3: Yes, no matter who you are, no matter how rich 19 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 3: you are, how famous you are, how young or good 20 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 3: looking you are, no matter how many people love you 21 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 3: or you love, You're going to experience grief. 22 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 2: Absolutely do you find that people only equate grief to death. 23 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 3: They do, and that's why, you know, my goal in 24 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 3: writing the book was to help people to move towards 25 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:29,759 Speaker 3: their grief as opposed to moving away from it and 26 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 3: seeing grief as any adversity that we face. You know, 27 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 3: we face a myriad of emotions all through the day, 28 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 3: and our lives are filled with you know, potential disappointments 29 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 3: like divorces, breakups, career disappointments, financial hardship, fallout from natural disasters. 30 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 3: So grief is really anything that is unresolved, like feelings 31 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 3: that cause us a lot of negativity and stuff. So 32 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 3: it doesn't have to be just from somebody that you lost. 33 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 2: Why do you think our culture downplays all the examples 34 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 2: that you just gave because I find maybe this is 35 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 2: just amongst my friend group, but I can't imagine that. 36 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 2: But I find that when someone goes through a breakup 37 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 2: or a loss, a job loss, anything like the things 38 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 2: you just described, that we kind of have this mentality 39 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 2: of Okay, well on to the next, get over that, 40 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 2: and we really downplay all of the emotions that come 41 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 2: with such a loss. Why do you think we do that? 42 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 3: We do? And you know, we've always been a be 43 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 3: strong and move on culture. You know, that's been our 44 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 3: narrative for a long time. We're either afraid of wallowing 45 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 3: in the grief for too long and then that gets worse, 46 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 3: or we're afraid of being judged by it. And you know, 47 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 3: it's not the case with the whole world. There are 48 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 3: other countries that actually hold suffering and grief and high regard. 49 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 3: We don't do that. So it is curious about that. 50 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 3: It's almost taboo. So I hope that you know your 51 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 3: listeners who may also feel uncomfortable about talking about grief, 52 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 3: maybe at the end of this conversation might have a 53 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,920 Speaker 3: different experience about their own grief. Cut themselves some slack. 54 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 3: And you know, for many people, when you do avoid 55 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 3: grief and you you know, brush it under the carpet 56 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 3: and stuff like that, it has the potential of getting worse. Right, 57 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 3: So it's much wiser to find a way to be 58 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 3: moved by your grief. And that's what the book's about. 59 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 3: It's not necessarily learning to like grief. Nobody will ever 60 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 3: like grief. We all do it, we all avoid it. 61 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 3: Nobody wants to suffer. You know, let's be clear about that, 62 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 3: but you can find, you know, meaning in your grief. 63 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 3: You can actually find purpose in it. Purpose and pain 64 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 3: has a lot of value. So the book helps you 65 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 3: to even find even beauty in your suffering. 66 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 2: Well, we mentioned the book is called The Magic and 67 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 2: the Tragic, which I think you kind of just summarized 68 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 2: some of the meaning behind that phrase. But I find 69 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 2: it to be such a beautiful phrase. Can you tell 70 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 2: the listeners a little bit more about what it means 71 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 2: to find the magic and the tragic? 72 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, So when I was young, I experienced trauma in 73 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 3: my family, and then as a teenager there was tragedy. 74 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 3: I lost a sibling and it was a really difficult 75 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 3: time for me, and you know, I didn't have the 76 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 3: tools to deal with it, and I didn't really deal 77 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 3: with it until much later. But I found that before 78 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 3: the tragedy, I always had a curious relationship with the arts. 79 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 3: And I don't know why, but I had a little 80 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 3: bit of an aesthetic mindset when it came to music, 81 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 3: and music always made me feel good, even the sad kind. 82 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 3: So I learned that in my darkest moments after this tragedy, 83 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 3: if I listened to music and I paired it together, 84 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 3: somehow it started to change my thoughts and I started 85 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 3: to realize that this was, you know, a different experience 86 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 3: that I was giving myself. I was honoring my grief 87 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 3: in this way, and I was feeling like, whoever wrote 88 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 3: this music knows exactly what I'm feeling like. And it 89 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 3: felt like it legitimized my pain. It felt like it 90 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 3: validated my pain, and that was kind of the beginning 91 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:03,480 Speaker 3: of and I use that often in my psychotherapy practice. 92 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 3: And remember, an aesthetic, Kelly, can be anything that evokes 93 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 3: positive emotion in you. It could be your love for gardening. 94 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 3: It could be your love for hard work. It could 95 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,280 Speaker 3: be fitness, it could be any of the arts. Of course, 96 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 3: it could be spending time in nature. So it doesn't 97 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 3: have to be my path. But finding that aesthetic, finding 98 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 3: that beauty and pairing that in your dark times is 99 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 3: the way you build emotional resilience, which is converting pain 100 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 3: into thriving. 101 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 2: You know, as you were talking, I was just thinking 102 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 2: through the times of my life when what I would 103 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 2: consider I've been going through the grieving process. And I 104 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 2: think the reason the magic in the Tragic really struck 105 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 2: me so beautifully is that in those moments just like 106 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 2: you're talking about with your music. It was probably some 107 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 2: of the only times in my life that I actually 108 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 2: slowed down an to notice what was happening around. And 109 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:04,679 Speaker 2: you know, when you're going through such a painful time, 110 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 2: everything it's almost visceral, you know, like the air you feel, 111 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 2: the air hits your body, you feel the way the 112 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 2: sun is shining. It's just like you feel everything. I'm 113 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 2: wondering when you were writing the book and you really 114 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 2: came up with the magic of the Tragic, was that 115 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 2: kind of what inspired you to want to help people 116 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 2: with the grief process and really trying to reframe how 117 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 2: we look at grief instead of running from it. Because 118 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 2: to me, I have found a deeper version of myself, 119 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 2: but also such beauty of life within those moments, as 120 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 2: painful as they. 121 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 3: Were, beautifully said. Yeah, again, if evolution didn't think that 122 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 3: grief had any purpose, it would have eliminated it a 123 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 3: long time ago. But it has stuck around for a 124 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 3: long time, so it has its benefits. And yeah, I 125 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 3: definitely used my own experience of putting intention to it 126 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 3: because I think to your point, you're saying that it 127 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 3: slowed you down, So I don't think that happiness or inspiration, 128 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 3: you know, just knocks on your door. I think you 129 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 3: have to create it in your life. You have to 130 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,239 Speaker 3: find out what works for you. And so with that intention, 131 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 3: because grief will always be there, hopefully not every day, 132 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 3: but we always experience some discomfort throughout our lives, that 133 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 3: you can use that in a constructive way, that you 134 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 3: can use it. You can almost leverage your pain in 135 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,559 Speaker 3: that way. And again a big taboo subject for people 136 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 3: because the reflex is to not think about it and 137 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 3: just to move past it as quickly as possible, But 138 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 3: there is so much value. Imagine if you could learn 139 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 3: how to live with as much faith and as much 140 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 3: confidence and maybe even the sorrowful of the sad as 141 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 3: you do with happy aspects of your life, it would 142 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 3: change your life drastically. And you know, one of the 143 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 3: exercises in the book that I use is called inspiration exposure, 144 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 3: which is where you learn to immerse yourself in your 145 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 3: darkest moments to these aesthetics whatever those are, these awe 146 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 3: inspiring moments or things in your life. And there are 147 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 3: studies out there that show that when they do expose 148 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 3: people to awe inducement and inspiration, it activates the part 149 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 3: of the brain called the prefrontal cortex, which is in 150 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 3: the back of your brain, just behind the forehead. And 151 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 3: when you activate that part of your brain, which is 152 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 3: your executive brain, your higher self, you inspire more motivation 153 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 3: to be hopeful, You inspire more motivation to be at 154 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 3: your best, It inspires more motivation to connect with others, 155 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 3: and it makes you be more self reflective. It makes 156 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 3: you be more introspective with yourself. So if you can 157 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 3: inspire that each time and you do that yourself, you've 158 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 3: got something going there. And so I always tell people 159 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 3: one of the best things you can do for yourself 160 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 3: is to learn how to give yourself uplifting chills as 161 00:08:58,400 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 3: often as possible. 162 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 2: I think this is such an important conversation because you know, 163 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 2: we always hear that saying hurt people hurt people, And 164 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 2: I think what I would equote that to as someone 165 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 2: who I openly talk about hurts in my life on 166 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 2: this podcast, And so I think, like we said, everyone 167 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 2: goes through hurts, and it is truly in how you 168 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 2: deal with it, because I would say, at this stage 169 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 2: of my life, the hurts in my life have actually 170 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,079 Speaker 2: made me into a person I like way more than 171 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 2: I was before those hurts. But I think it's because 172 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 2: I don't know if you know anything about the enneagram, 173 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 2: I'm an ideogram for I'm very comfortable in dark emotions. 174 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, I can. 175 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 2: I can be okay and the high emotions and the 176 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 2: low emotions because I think they're all a part of 177 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 2: a process. And so I've never shied away from those 178 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 2: low emotions and that's been a gift in my life. 179 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 2: And it's exactly what you're speaking about, what you just said. 180 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 2: And then I also was just thinking, I mean, you're 181 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 2: a psychotherapist. I know you've worked in that field for 182 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 2: over thirty years, so I imagine you've seen people go 183 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 2: through every kind of loss, with every kind of grief. 184 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 2: Is there one thing that you would say people are 185 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 2: most surprised to learn about grief as they go through 186 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 2: these processes. 187 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:22,960 Speaker 3: Well, let me just say first of all that there's 188 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 3: a new CDC report out there that depression has increased 189 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 3: in the last ten years sixty percent. And in twenty 190 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:33,959 Speaker 3: twenty four twenty twenty five, when they started to gather 191 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:37,839 Speaker 3: all the data in the fallout of the pandemic, they 192 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 3: saw that one in eight people ages twelve and up 193 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 3: in the US experienced some degree of depression, so we 194 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 3: know the numbers are up. I've seen in my private 195 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 3: practice that people's anxiety has spiked. I've seen again depression 196 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 3: on the rise. So you know, these are times that 197 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 3: also people are reaching out more to therapy, which is great, 198 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,319 Speaker 3: but it's a different time. It's a different kind of chaos, 199 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 3: it's a different kind of uncertainty, not just you know, 200 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 3: the affairs around the world, but in this country as well. 201 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 3: So in my private practice, that's really what I see 202 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 3: is high anxiety and not being able to sort of 203 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 3: balance themselves out because there are no quick answers for 204 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 3: the uncertainties that we're living with right now. 205 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 2: Right, But doesn't that make total sense with the way 206 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 2: that our culture is currently set up. We don't talk 207 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 2: about exactly what you're talking about. We try to sidestep it, 208 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 2: We try to move past it, brush it under the rug, 209 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 2: buy another item off of Instagram to fix it, you know, 210 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 2: get more success, chase money, all of those things, and 211 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 2: none of that is going to remove the emotions all 212 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 2: that are happening inside of us. 213 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 3: Right and again, for most people, if you don't do that, 214 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 3: it can get worse. But we do have a familiarity 215 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 3: with our emotions and we learn not to be afraid 216 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,439 Speaker 3: of it. And it's a process. It doesn't happen immediately. 217 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 3: Not everyone is going to, you know, be okay with 218 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 3: their sort of darker, sadder moods. But can you learn 219 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 3: how to be moved by it? Can you learn how 220 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 3: to be inspired by it? And also to understand that 221 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 3: the ancients also have been talking about this for years, 222 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 3: you know, they've been saying that, you know, that builds character, 223 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:20,359 Speaker 3: and I think that it does. Is you just described. 224 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 3: I think that it makes people more compassionate. It's a 225 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 3: rite of passage. It's the way that you get vetted. 226 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 3: It's the way that it increases the sensitivity of your heart. 227 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:33,559 Speaker 3: You're much more compassionate with yourself and others. So there's 228 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 3: so much value in that. But we do want to yeah, 229 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 3: we do want to take away the stigma and the 230 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 3: initial fear. Because it feels bad. I think people translated 231 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 3: as because it feels bad, I shouldn't be feeling this. 232 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 2: I've had a friend recently going through a pretty bad breakup, 233 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 2: and she's been one of the people that we were 234 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 2: talking about earlier that wants to rush through it, you know, 235 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 2: and there's so much shame I'm seeing come from the 236 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 2: fact that she's not over it yet, and I find 237 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 2: that to be so interesting. But in your book you 238 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 2: write about something you say you call it dignifying the suffering. 239 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 2: I just loved the way that was said, because what 240 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 2: I would want to say to my friend is you 241 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 2: are so justified in this moment and for her to 242 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 2: find this kind of strength in that in a different 243 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,199 Speaker 2: way she's talking to herself than the shame and the 244 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 2: wanting to move past it. Can you talk a little 245 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 2: bit about dignifying the suffering? 246 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, So if I learn how to not be afraid 247 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 3: of my suffering and try to hold it in high 248 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 3: regard as we just described, then maybe I'm not shaming 249 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 3: myself about it. I'm not rushing through it. I'm actually 250 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 3: dignifying it, which means I'm honoring it. I'm giving it 251 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 3: new meaning. And then little by little I start reassociating 252 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 3: my grief and my emotional pain with positive things like curiosity, 253 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 3: with wonderment, with personal growth, and maybe even with some spirituality. 254 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,439 Speaker 3: You know, I always say that because I always try 255 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 3: to try to take the wu out of the wou 256 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 3: for people, because you know, some people are very sort 257 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 3: of opposed to hearing anything spiritual or religious. And I 258 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 3: would say I'm more spiritual than religious. But you know, 259 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 3: some people say that the divine or God or the 260 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 3: universe speaks to us through our aesthetics, speaks to us 261 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 3: through our arts and through nature and stuff. And so 262 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 3: if I can reassociate it to be something like that, 263 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 3: even a spiritual experience, that's giving it a little bit 264 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 3: of dignity, that's giving it some value and some importance 265 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 3: and a different kind of meaning instead of the knee 266 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 3: jer This is bad and it's negative, you know, or 267 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 3: I shouldn't be you know, there's a time frame, you know, 268 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 3: I need two weeks or two months, and after that 269 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 3: I should forget about it and move on. It doesn't 270 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 3: work that way. 271 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 2: Just yeah, Well, you mentioned the rise and anxiety and 272 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 2: all of the OCD, phobia's depression, all of that stuff 273 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 2: in the last ten years. And I'm just curious because 274 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 2: the more I've learned about trauma, the more I see 275 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 2: that it's all connected. And if we don't resolve our 276 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 2: trauma or face it work through the grief, it can 277 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 2: circulate much later in our lives in the form. For me, 278 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 2: it comes up with a lot of anxiety, like I'll 279 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 2: feel it in my body, or I can feel heavy 280 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 2: with depression, things like that. And for me now I 281 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 2: can know because I've done, you know, some work around 282 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 2: this stuff. There's something going on that I'm not addressing 283 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 2: or like what am I trying to side step or 284 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 2: put to the side. And so if you're seeing these 285 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 2: things in your practice, how much are you kind of 286 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 2: equating back to things people haven't dealt with for many 287 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 2: years or like childhood? You know, I know you mentioned 288 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 2: the traumatic events in your childhood and they came up 289 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 2: way later. Can you just talk a little bit more 290 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 2: about that the connection there. 291 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 3: I mean, my psychotherapy practice does respect being a good 292 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 3: historian and not only remembering what has happened to the 293 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 3: way I describe my story, but also doing the work 294 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 3: on that. You know, it's easy to say, oh, yeah, 295 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 3: I feel anxiety and this is kind of how I 296 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 3: felt when I was a kid, and I'm an adult now, 297 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 3: and maybe I shouldn't feel that. I try to change 298 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 3: people's dialogue and instead say, well, that means I need 299 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 3: a little more work on that, or I need to 300 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 3: be healed on that a little bit more. I need 301 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 3: to talk about that a little bit more. So, Yeah, 302 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 3: the trauma stays with us. And because trauma gets encoded 303 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 3: in the senses, not only in memory. It is manifested 304 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 3: sometimes in anxiety, in grief, in depression, and sometimes it's 305 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 3: manifested as panic, and sometimes with digestive problems and aches 306 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 3: and pains and things like that. So looking back and 307 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 3: you know, trying to understand your life looking backwards, but 308 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 3: of course living it moving forwards is a big part 309 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 3: of psychotherapy. And you know, a good psychotherapist will always 310 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 3: include that. It's not always the center, you know, the 311 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 3: center stage for psychotherapy, but it is very important to 312 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 3: go back and look at that. So thanks for bringing that. 313 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 2: Up, of course. And you mentioned spirituality, whatever that looks 314 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 2: like for people. I think religion is one way that 315 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 2: you could be connected to the tree outside for all 316 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 2: I care. You know, as long as you're connected to 317 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 2: something higher than yourself, I see it helping people typically. 318 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,879 Speaker 2: And I know you have a podcast called Mindfulness for 319 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 2: the Soul, which I will want to talk about a 320 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 2: little bit more later. But what kind of role do 321 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 2: you find spirituality, mindfulness things like that to play during 322 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 2: seasons of loss or emotional chaos. How are those things 323 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 2: really helping us? From a psychotherapy standpoint. 324 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,239 Speaker 3: I think that everybody needs to have something to believe in, 325 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 3: and statistically most of the world is religious and or 326 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 3: spiritual and knowing what's going to happen to you when 327 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,360 Speaker 3: you die, or at least believing in something like that 328 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,919 Speaker 3: and having that that kind of faith seems to be 329 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 3: a need for humans, however you slice it, or however 330 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,439 Speaker 3: you look at it. So that gives people purpose, That 331 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 3: gives people hope, that gives people direction, It gives them guidance. 332 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 3: You know. That's why the twelve step programs in alcoholics 333 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 3: anonymous are so important, because it isn't so much staying 334 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 3: clean and sober and all that stuff, but it's really 335 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 3: the fellowship that you create and how you are in 336 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 3: service of others, and how that gives you, you know, 337 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 3: a place to go each day or a place to 338 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 3: tune into via zoom or however they do it. So 339 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 3: all of that creates purpose, connection and then it inspires 340 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,400 Speaker 3: gratitude for a lot of people. So I think it's 341 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:45,679 Speaker 3: a big part of it. It's never the main conversation 342 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,360 Speaker 3: that I have with my patients, But if they do 343 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:50,679 Speaker 3: have a sense of faith, I do want to I 344 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 3: want them to explain it to me and to tell 345 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 3: me how that can help them. And lots of times 346 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 3: people have detached from their sense of faith or their 347 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 3: religions for whatever reason, and I helped them to try 348 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 3: to come back to it in a way that maybe 349 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 3: feels safer this time, or maybe feels just a little 350 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 3: more palatable. 351 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 2: You mentioned hope, and I find that to be so 352 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 2: important during grief. Hope and connection. Those were the two 353 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 2: things that really stuck out to me in the last 354 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 2: bit that you said, because for me, during the times 355 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 2: I've talked about the times where I just felt like 356 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:27,719 Speaker 2: I was at the bottom of the barrel, not going 357 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 2: to be able to climb out of it. One seeing 358 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 2: other people who had lived a similar circumstance via connection 359 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 2: that I had and survived and built a life again 360 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 2: gave me hope. And I think when you're in those times, 361 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:49,360 Speaker 2: there's something that our brain needs there that says this 362 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 2: is not the end, this is not I'm not stuck 363 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 2: here forever. I can get out of this circumstance. They 364 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 2: did it, I can do it. Those kind of things. 365 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 2: Are you seeing that a lot in the ways that 366 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 2: people overcome grief and tragedy and things like that. 367 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 3: I believe that human beings are wired for connection, but 368 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 3: whenever we have trauma and we're going through difficult times, 369 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:25,239 Speaker 3: we've become rewired temporarily for protection, especially here in this 370 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 3: country given what we talked about before, where we have 371 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 3: that double standard. You know, you're either the life of 372 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 3: the party or you're a pessimist. So the natural reflex 373 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 3: when you're depressed is, you know, it's almost like a 374 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 3: voice telling you, don't reach out, don't let anybody see me, 375 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 3: stay in bed, don't get out of bed. Nothing matters, 376 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:49,679 Speaker 3: nothing's important. So psychotherapy, connection, faith might pull us out 377 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 3: of that, even for one minute and just connect with 378 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 3: somebody and luckily that person is going to be compassionate 379 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 3: or they're going to be somebody that relates to what 380 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 3: you're going through, and then you know what that's going 381 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 3: to do to you. But most of the time that 382 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 3: uplifts you for a little while. You don't feel so alone, 383 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,919 Speaker 3: You feel the universality of you know, I'm part of this, 384 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 3: maybe this brotherhood of wounded souls, and many, many of 385 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 3: us are like this all the time, but we don't 386 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 3: know it because we isolate. So I try to break 387 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 3: the cycle of isolation. 388 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 2: If we have any listeners that are hearing like what 389 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 2: you just said, try to break the cycle of isolation. 390 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 2: I know you give a lot of tips in the 391 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 2: Book of Tangible Tips, and I love that, But would 392 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 2: there be one step that you would say to someone 393 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 2: listening who is resonating with the depression, the anxiety, being 394 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 2: stuck in that, being stuck in the isolation and not 395 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 2: really knowing exactly what the first step should be to 396 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 2: get themselves out of it or to find some of 397 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 2: the magic in the tragic like we're talking about. 398 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 3: Well, obviously people lack structure when they're typically deeply depressed. 399 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,679 Speaker 3: They have stopped doing their routines. They are not you know, 400 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 3: following through on their their tasks, their goals, their assignments 401 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 3: for the day, so to speak. So it's making sure 402 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 3: that people do have structure, making sure that people, despite 403 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,920 Speaker 3: how they feel, they are still you know, fulfilling role 404 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 3: obligations and that they are you know, opening up the 405 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,680 Speaker 3: shades and getting outside and being with people and talking 406 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 3: to people. But it's really reaching out that's probably what 407 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 3: I would say that most of people is to reach out. 408 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,719 Speaker 3: You know, there's an exercise in the book that I 409 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 3: often give to people that really helps them a lot, 410 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 3: and especially if they're struggling with their depression and or 411 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 3: their grief and not giving themselves the compassion to feel 412 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 3: it is I ask people to write themselves a sympathy letter, 413 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 3: a very short one, a letter that you would probably 414 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,719 Speaker 3: write to a friend that's going through a real big loss. 415 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:51,360 Speaker 3: And in this letter, you're giving yourself the kind of compassion, 416 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 3: the space to feel the grief, the time to grief 417 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,360 Speaker 3: for as long as you want, and you're saying I'm 418 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 3: sorry for what I've been through and what I've gone through, 419 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 3: and that everything that I feel is legitimate and it's okay, 420 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 3: and it's just part of life. There's a very powerful 421 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 3: process to be able to give that to yourself the 422 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 3: way that you might give that to someone else. People 423 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 3: don't do that for themselves. They are more apt to 424 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 3: be kinder and more compassionate with others than they are 425 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:19,880 Speaker 3: with themselves. 426 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 2: Yes, that makes so much sense to me. Can you 427 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 2: tell the listeners a little bit about what you talk 428 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 2: about on the podcast and the kind of conversations you're having. 429 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's psychological tips for the day, it's daily reminders, 430 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 3: it's little exercises to stay present as often as possible, 431 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 3: try to stay as authentic as possible. There are you know, 432 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 3: episodes about mindfulness that you mentioned before. There could be 433 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 3: some relaxation techniques, some meditation, some progressive muscle relaxation, all 434 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 3: kinds of things to kind of get you through the day. 435 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 3: So it's sort of like they you know, your daily stop, 436 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,199 Speaker 3: your daily break with intention to get some tips to 437 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 3: get you through the day. 438 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 2: Well, that also sounds like a really good place to 439 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 2: start if you're in the place of depression, anxiety, or 440 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 2: really struggling in some grief low moments. If you had 441 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,439 Speaker 2: to say one thing that you really want the magic 442 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 2: in the tragic to bring to the country, to anyone, 443 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 2: to people. Because of the work you do and what 444 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,640 Speaker 2: you're seeing out there with people, I do think you're 445 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 2: seeing kind of how much a lot of us are 446 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 2: just in the trenches right now. So what's your hope 447 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 2: for this book. 448 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 3: That, as I mentioned before, you're not afraid of your 449 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 3: grief moving forward, and that you know if you do 450 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 3: try to pair it with aspects of your life that 451 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,360 Speaker 3: are beautiful or that do give you excitement and they 452 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 3: lift your spirit. You might start developing what I call 453 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 3: grief empowerment. You might walk around feeling a little bit 454 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,639 Speaker 3: differently about who you are and what your feelings are 455 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 3: about you know, again, it's very natural to not want 456 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 3: to feel negative feelings. But if you can f find 457 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 3: a way to not fear it and hold it in 458 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 3: high regard as I mentioned before, and honor it, exalt 459 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 3: it as best you can, I think that you're building 460 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 3: stronger resilience. And remember, resilience isn't about having grit and 461 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 3: being let's say a warrior or something like that. It's 462 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:22,719 Speaker 3: really about converting things. So instead of running from your grief, 463 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,679 Speaker 3: can you find a way And I think that the 464 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,640 Speaker 3: book explains that really well, can you find a way 465 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 3: to transform it into something different, something purposeful? And I 466 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,919 Speaker 3: think that it'll help you to thrive better moving forward 467 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 3: in these difficult times. 468 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 2: Resilience does not mean grit. I saw you say that 469 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 2: on Good Morning America, and I thought that is what 470 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 2: we need to hear right now. Resilience doesn't mean it 471 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 2: has to be grit, because that's what we do, right, 472 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 2: we keep striving, we keep feeling like we need to 473 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 2: push through. 474 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 3: And it was exhausting, right because then if after the 475 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 3: second or third day or fourth day, after you know, 476 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,640 Speaker 3: my dark period begins, or I'm feeling depressed or sad 477 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 3: about something, if everyone's telling me that it is about grit, 478 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 3: and then i still can't make it go away because 479 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 3: I'm still feeling that way and I'd still need time 480 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 3: to process it. I'm going to feel weak, Yeah, feel 481 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:16,640 Speaker 3: like a fool. I'm going to feel like I don't 482 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 3: get it. Everybody else does and I don't. So it's 483 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 3: not about grit and you know, being powerful and stuff 484 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 3: like that. So I'm glad you brought that up, because yeah, 485 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 3: I did mention that, and I hope everyone heard that. So, 486 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 3: you know, it's kind of like when people say, with 487 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 3: good intention, you know, you don't look depressed or what 488 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 3: do you have to be sad about? You know, our 489 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 3: immigrant parents tell us that all the time. You know, 490 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 3: you have a roof over your head. You know, you 491 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 3: you live in a in a nice place, or you 492 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 3: live in a in a city that has you know whatever, 493 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 3: resources and fun and you're safe and all that stuff. 494 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 3: But you know, despite the good intention, that's not the 495 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,400 Speaker 3: thing you want to hear when you're feeling down, because 496 00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 3: that's going to make you feel weak and it's going 497 00:26:59,200 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 3: to stignatize you. 498 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,880 Speaker 2: So you try to make more depressed, more anxious exactly. 499 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, So I have to give it to myself. I 500 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 3: have to learn how to If I can't find people 501 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 3: to give me that kind of support, I can learn 502 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 3: how to do that. And by being sort of the 503 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 3: architect of how you know, my day is going to 504 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 3: progress despite my sad feelings, I again empowering myself, and 505 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 3: I think that's that's really what it's about, is I 506 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 3: don't give people advice. I create the conditions in therapy 507 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,199 Speaker 3: for people to learn how to empower themselves and to 508 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 3: make decisions for themselves. That's really what therapy is for. 509 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 3: If you can empower yourself, then your life is going 510 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 3: to look vastly different. 511 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 2: I completely agree. Well, I will put the link for 512 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 2: John's podcast in the description of this podcast for you guys, 513 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 2: is there anywhere else that people can keep up with 514 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 2: you if they want to keep up with your work? 515 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 3: On Instagram it's j Silimparus and then on TikTok it's 516 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 3: John Silimparus okay, and then my website is johnsilimpars dot com. 517 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 2: Perfect again. I will put all of that in the 518 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 2: description of this podcast for you guys, John, thank you 519 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:08,919 Speaker 2: so much for being here. I really love this conversation. 520 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 3: Thank you. It's a lot of fun. I appreciate it. 521 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 2: Thank you guys for listening. 522 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to The Velvet's Edge podcast with Kelly Henderson, 523 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: where we believe everyone has a little velvet in a 524 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:23,399 Speaker 1: little edge. Subscribe for more conversations on life, style, beauty 525 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,160 Speaker 1: and relationships. Search Velvet's Edge wherever you get your podcasts.