WEBVTT - How Project Blue Book Worked, Pt II 0:00:01.120 --> 0:00:03.400 Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of My 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:12.400 Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. 0:00:12.440 --> 0:00:16.239 I'm Josh Clark, There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, there's Jerry 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:20.639 over there, and this is Park du Um. Project blue 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:25.000 Book that's right where we left off. Project blue Book 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:28.200 has officially been launched. They're doing a pretty good job 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:32.040 of investigating stuff at this point. The Salad Days Salad 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:35.120 Days of official investigation. You know, every time I hear 0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:39.200 salad Days, I think of Monty Python sketch about it's 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:41.279 just called salad Days. Great, you should look at I'll 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:44.080 check it out. Is there is there blood? I need 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:46.680 blood in my Monty Py A lot of blood. Okay, 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:51.880 I'm in then, So let's talk about this was a 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:53.640 big if you want to talk to salad days of 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:56.800 UFO sightings. Speaking of salad days, this is one of 0:00:56.840 --> 0:01:01.600 the big years. Uh. There were fifty hundred and one 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:06.480 UFO sightings in nineteen fifty two, which there were a 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:10.240 hundred and sixty nine. So there's a lot. Yeah, almost 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:15.040 an increase of ten times, that's right, pretty order of magnitude, 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:18.520 that's right. Yeah, So that's a pretty big uptick. I 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:20.399 guess you could say, and it just so happens that 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:25.200 the Air Force had positioned itself already to investigate this 0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:28.160 stuff with an open mind. Yeah, And there were some 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:30.800 big ones, like there was one where the Air Force 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:37.280 scrambled jets to intercept what they called brilliant objects over Washington. Uh, 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:40.440 they were on radar and seen visually in the sky. 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:43.440 And Major General John Sandford, he was the Director of Intelligence, 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:46.000 actually brief the FBI on this one and said, it 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:50.040 is not entirely impossible that the object sided may possibly 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:54.280 be ships from another planet such as Mars. You shouldn't 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:58.080 added that last, really really suck the wind out of 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:00.160 his credibility, Yeah, because he had to go in with 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:02.080 a pretty good sentence there, and he could have just 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:06.440 said from a somewhere else in the galaxy, right, He 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:10.520 might as well have said Uranus. He might as well 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:15.519 said martians. M So Sandford also, I got the impression 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:18.679 he went a little bit rogue here. He held a 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:23.200 press conference, from what I understand of his own accord, Yeah, 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:25.920 to reassure the general public that the Air Force was 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:28.560 on the case and that yes, it's true, we can't 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:31.120 really explain all this stuff but we're looking into it. 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:34.560 But he included the word however, which is very important 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:39.880 because what followed that was, however, a certain percentage had 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:44.720 been made by credible observers of relatively incredible things. It 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:48.280 is this group of observations that we now are attempting 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:52.480 to resolve. But there is no conceivable threat to the 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:55.359 United States. I don't know if I would have felt 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:57.959 better hearing that presser, I wouldn't have. Yeah, I would 0:02:58.000 --> 0:02:59.840 have been like, I knew it. I knew at the 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:02.560 was about to end ye Martians. Who knows who's going 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:04.920 to replace Tom Cruise in top gun. There's this utter 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:09.119 chaos and disorder, that's right. Um. So there was an 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:13.280 article much the same way that the Saturday Evening Post 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:15.840 helped put it kind of a damper on the UFO craze. 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:17.840 The behest of the Air Force back in the forties. 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:22.000 The UFO fever that spiked in nineteen fifty two was 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:25.680 helped along by a Life magazine article, but not from 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:28.600 the Air Force behest. No, No, it was like the opposite. 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:32.919 It was called have we visitors from outer Space? It's 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:35.960 just such a nineteen fifties headline, you know. Yeah, And 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:39.000 they offered or they said they were offering scientific evidence 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:42.600 that there's a real case for in a planetary saucers. 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:45.480 And then I think about ten sightings that they kind 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:47.440 of just went over in great detail. Right, it was 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:51.000 a very long article. It was, um, it really made 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:55.080 the case that yes, there was probably extraterrestrials visiting US. 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:56.960 I bet that was a big issue of life. Sure, 0:03:57.120 --> 0:03:59.040 but they sold a lot of those, Yeah, and they 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:02.040 I mean it landed really well and really hard among 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:04.320 the American public because they were in the grips of 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:08.520 UFO fever again. So while this is going on like it, 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:10.280 it had kind of died down a little bit as 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:13.080 crazy and in fact, the I think the Air Force 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:16.640 was kind of surprised when it flared up again because 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:19.719 it had a little bit died down from seven to 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:23.440 say nifty, and then all of a sudden fifty two. 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:25.320 I don't know where it comes back. It's like a 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:28.360 hemorrhoid you thought you'd taken care of exactly. That's an 0:04:28.360 --> 0:04:33.520 exact analogy. It's perfect. So the c I A, um, 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:37.080 they had been kind of keeping tabs on this stuff. 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:39.000 I wondered about this when I was reading this, I 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:41.159 was like where are they this whole time? That's exactly 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:44.200 what they wanted you to wonder and then conclude they're 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:47.479 not doing anything exactly Could that be on the news? Right? Right? 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:50.839 So it turns out that the CIA was doing something 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:52.920 even though it wasn't on the news. Um. There was 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:57.160 a guy named H. H. Marshall Chadwell, where did all 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:00.760 these people come from? Yel or something's great there? Everyone 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:04.599 involved in this this UFO investigation came from Yale. BA 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:07.360 sound like blue bloods. So um. He was the assistant 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:12.640 director of Scientific Intelligence for the CIA, and he basically said, hey, um, 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:15.000 we don't know what these are. By the way, I 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:16.920 don't know if you've been paying attention to this stuff, 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:21.520 but we should probably investigate it. That's right. So he Um. 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:24.760 He got a panel impaneled, there's really no other way 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:28.600 to put it. I like that word. Um in ninety 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:32.279 two and it was led by a physicist, a very famous, 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:36.720 likable physicist named Howard Percy Robertson. He was likable physicists, sure, 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:40.520 he was very very well liked in his class at Yale. 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:45.480 He would be H. Percy Robertson at Yale though, Oh 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:49.159 I guess so he really would he loosened the club 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:52.919 tie by going by Howard Percy. Yeah, so he was 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:57.360 from cal Tech and he looked into this thing and 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:00.360 they had this panel and they met for for days 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:03.520 twelve hours a few hours a day. That seems a 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:05.800 little skimpy to me, but whatever, same here, I've only 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:08.160 got three hours a day to do. They just basically 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:11.400 went around the room taking turns reading that Life magazine 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:14.039 article out loud, I guess so, and then discussing what 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:17.240 they thought about it. So Repelled is still here. He's 0:06:17.360 --> 0:06:20.200 the head of Blue Book at the time. Still Heinik 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:24.159 was there. He's still around. Yeah, he's never he's never left, right, No, 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:28.720 he's part of this this ongoing project that's right investigation. Uh. 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:31.120 And then other people that were involved that you know 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:32.800 should have been in the room and were in the room, 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:35.520 and they were all presenting what they thought were the 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:39.160 most interesting cases to what would be eventually known as 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:42.520 the Robertson Panel. Right, the Robertson Panel said thank you 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:44.520 very much, all of you will will be in touch. 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:47.000 Don't call us, We'll call you. And they issued a 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:51.720 final report and it said that of all UFO cases 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:59.400 could be explained by meteorological, meteorological, astronomical, celestial, known scientific stuff. 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:04.560 Sure technology, that that's believable. Okay, the other ten percent, though, 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:09.520 if we spend enough time and energy investigating it, we 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:12.200 could also explain those. Yeah, that's where the b S 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:15.640 comes in. Their conclusion was that given enough time and effort, 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:22.840 of all UFO sightings could be explained underknown scientific or 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:26.200 technological explanation. And no one said, so are you saying 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:30.040 that ten percent of these are so confounding that you 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:33.120 can't explain them? And they went, yeah, but we could, 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:36.600 we just don't have enough time. Exactly. It's a really 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:39.080 passive aggressive way of saying there is no such thing 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:42.400 as alien. Yeah, pretty much so that but that is 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:45.240 ultimately what they said. Yeah, but here's the thing though, 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:48.600 they did see that this was the fact that people 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:51.840 were sighting these UFOs, and it was all over the papers. Um, 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:55.119 the craze was a bad thing and and dangerous, even 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:58.560 because the Cold War is heating up like we were 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:02.680 talking about. Um, the Soviets have been known to secretly 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:08.760 exploit the American psyche. Um, that never happens anymore. Of course, 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:11.600 they don't do anything like that. Well, it's like you said, 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:14.480 this was the Cold War, that's right. They were known 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:16.920 to do this kind of thing, and they thought, this 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:19.480 is a perfect opportunity for the Soviets to come in 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:25.320 fake reports about UFOs, get everyone distracted, worked up into 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:28.960 a frenzy, um and they start asking them questions about 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:34.240 pulsating and and they said, and not only that, but 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:37.360 the Soviets, Uh, I read their papers or I have 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:40.000 them read to me, and uh, they don't have any 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:43.559 reportings of UFO sidings. So they're clearly if there are any, 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:45.760 they're keeping a lid on it. And this is our 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:48.200 problem that they can exploit. We can't do the same 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:50.480 back to them, right, So all the Soviets had to 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:52.880 do would be come in and be like UFOs UFOs 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:56.120 basically like shouting, you know, fire and a crowded theater, 0:08:56.200 --> 0:09:01.559 which is the legal of course, as everyone knows. That's right. Um, so, uh, 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:03.360 this is a this is a problem. This is like 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:06.000 with the way the CIA thought, you know, this is 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:08.959 something that they need to do something about. So they 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:14.880 decided to um basically undo that that Cold War hysteria 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:17.120 and panic. Yeah, but they were in a pickle though, 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:22.520 because they like they're supposed to be tamping down this 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:26.480 thing that they don't if that they I feel like 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:29.480 they shouldn't even be investigating to begin with. Right, they're 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:34.280 denying that something even exists, but continuing to investigate it. Right. 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:36.840 So what I was saying is they decided to say, Okay, 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:39.359 we need to get rid of this Cold War hysteria, 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:41.680 we need to kind of take the air out of 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:46.080 this weird phenomenon in American culture. And they decided to 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:49.360 do that by exploiting America with a public relations campaign 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:54.439 very as you say, bern Asian. Uh. And they said, hey, 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:57.959 call up Walt Disney. Yeah, and they really did. They thought, 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:00.640 you know, um, we're gonna get this out in the media. 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:04.880 We're gonna have um, we're gonna create this propaganda that's 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:08.400 gonna sweep the nation on TV and in movies and 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:12.199 in newspapers debunking all this stuff, showing like, hey, this 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:15.080 is how you explain this stuff, right, saying like here's 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:18.960 this report and here's the scientific explanation for it, and 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:21.280 that they consider that would be very powerful. And I 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:24.400 think they're right. Yeah, just basically priming America's pump to 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:27.560 where if you're having a water cooler conversation and bring 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:30.360 something up about a UFO. There are five people there 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:33.480 to say, didn't you see that thing like that? It's 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:36.719 weather balloons. People love doing that and if you can 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:39.880 arm people with that, they will do it every time. 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:41.920 And that that actually is a pretty good plan for 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:46.320 tamping down. It's a great plan. They also decided, maybe 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:48.679 one of the less great parts of the plan, to 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:54.839 surveil and keep tabs on UFO groups for anti American 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:58.520 stuff because this was during the McCarthy era. Of course. Yeah, 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:00.760 so everybody was doing anti America and stuff if they 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:03.720 weren't painting their white picket fence. Yeah, and I was. 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:05.840 You know, I mentioned Disney and we both laugh, But 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:08.160 that was not a joke. They actually did think about 0:11:08.840 --> 0:11:10.800 um and who knows, maybe they got in touch with 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:14.120 Disney about making some propaganda pieces to help them out 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:17.679 because they had done that before. Chip and Dale originally 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:20.720 started out as UFOO investigators. But it's just kind of 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:24.760 one thing led to another. Uh. They worked on propaganda 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:27.959 pieces before that was one called Donald gets drafted, uh 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:31.760 Donald Duck propaganda film UM And they said it never 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:33.920 came to fruition, but it would not surprise me if 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:36.520 they didn't poke around a little bit, right, like in 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:40.120 Earnest Donald gets drafted. Did Yeah that was a one 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:43.360 that got released. Oh you mean like the UFO one. Yeah, Like, 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:45.520 it wouldn't surprise me if they really did have an 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:48.080 official meeting and Disney just said no, like we're not 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:50.640 going to get involved. They're like, but we have this 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:55.240 idea about psychic children. But I guess it's kind of 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:58.199 pro psychic. Really, I wonder what the messages an Escape 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:00.199 from which Mountain. I haven't seen it in so long. 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:03.680 I'm sure there's some very clear message that as an adult, 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:05.760 you'd be like, this is what I was taught. Yeah, 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:08.040 I mean I saw both of those. Didn't the rock 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:12.120 recreate that remake it? I think so? But I did 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:14.160 not recreate. Makes it sound like he just did it 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:17.520 in his head in his living room or something here. 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:20.600 He recreated that after dinner one night. I really think 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:22.520 he was in that a remake. No, I think you're right. 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:25.320 I never I never bothered. Oh I didn't. I like 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:27.440 that guy though. Oh The Rocky is great. I mean 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:29.079 I don't go see his movies much, but he seems 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:31.000 like a good dude, right, he does seem like a 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:34.360 good dude. You have a sense for these kind of things. 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:38.920 There was one TV show, There was a CBS show 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:44.960 called UFOs colon Friend, Foe or Fantasy? And is this 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:48.960 the one that Cronkite Okay, I didn't know if that 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:52.160 was a separate one. Did I write this that poorly? 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:54.320 It's part of the same sentence? No, I know, I 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:57.440 just I couldn't tell if it was me it was 0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:00.760 my because it says isn't the same sentence narrated by 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:05.560 Walter Cronkite? Yes, okay, No, you are heated, grace, thank 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:09.400 you for rest. This is the nineteen sixty six uh. 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:13.640 And this was um largely over the Michigan sightings. Yeah, 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:15.280 we'll talk about those in a little bit. Yeah, just 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:17.160 stick a pin in that. But it was big enough 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:21.760 that they brought concrete or cron Kite out concrete, you 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:25.640 know how I'm talking about, Sure Walter concrete. That's he's 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:27.840 a legend. You turn them upside down and shake him 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:30.040 and we'll come out of the cup. So but in 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:33.000 that in that documentary is very much a pro skeptic 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:38.640 anti UFO documentary where it's they followed this um the 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:43.080 Robertson Panel recommendations of saying, here's this amazing report of 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:46.720 the sighting. Here's how it's explained. Here's another study. Here's 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:49.880 how it's explained. Don't you see now that UFOs are 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:53.240 actually really just kind of something. They're they're not alien. 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:55.760 It's fantasy. They called it friend forward fantasy. They should 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:58.840 have just called it UFOs fantasy, right, because that was 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:02.439 the upshot of it all. So UM, that Robertson panel report, 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:06.079 there's something else that was really interesting about it. UM 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:11.480 had a very surprising knock on effect years later. So 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:15.920 this the panel was was impaneled in ninety two, i 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:19.480 think the year of that, that UFO fever outbreak, and 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:23.680 it's um it's proceedings and its recommendations stayed classified until 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:27.880 nineteen seventy five, and after a blue book was gone. Yeah, 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:30.480 years after it was gone. So I'm sure they figured like, oh, 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:33.480 it's fine, whatever, just release it. But here's the thing. 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:36.920 Up to that point, up to nineteen seventy five, as 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:39.960 far as anyone in the American public was concerned, the 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:42.840 CIA had just remained quiet on the whole thing. It 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:45.800 was all you. US Air Force CEA had nothing to 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:47.680 do with it, And so all of a sudden, this 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:51.400 Robertson panel comes out, and it's not only their own report, 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:54.960 but they also mentioned an earlier CIA panel that had 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:59.600 basically the same conclusions um that showed that very much 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:03.000 the I was involved in this and that they covered 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:07.120 it up and two people in nine it gave the 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:10.320 the alien conspiracy theory a real shot in the arm 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:14.040 because it showed no, the CIA was definitely investigating this 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:16.600 and they covered it up. So how can we trust 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:20.560 anything that anybody says about this? Yeah, covering, covering it 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:24.400 up to begin with just made the cover up. It 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:27.320 was a cover up. It made a it made something 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:29.360 that wasn't a cover up a cover up. Yeah, exactly, 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:33.040 by covering and fueled all sorts of conspiracy theories. That's 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:36.040 how it works. That's just how it works. The US government, 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:40.680 probably any government, will never ever learn, but that is 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:43.320 just how it works. That's right. There was another report 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:48.080 declassified in nine, uh, where the CIA set around the 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:52.880 mid nineteen fifties, they started observing planes that could flat 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:58.360 high altitudes, they started creating them. Yeah, well it said observing, 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:00.000 So I guess they were just observing what they create. 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:04.240 Come on. You can't take everything I say, literally. Uh, 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:06.720 and we're talking about remember earlier I kind of teased 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:09.120 about the fact that the Soviets might have these spy 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:12.640 planes because we had spy planes, the U two spy 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:15.840 plane very much top secret at the time. Yeah, it's 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:18.000 it's like the old adage when you point in the 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:22.040 sky at the Rusha's spy plane, you've got three fingers 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:26.560 pointing back at your spy plane. Right. Uh. It was 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:28.640 very much top secret, like I said, and it was. 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:32.280 It could go up to sixty thousand feet, which is 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:35.080 three to five times higher than any commercial plane could 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:37.760 fly at the time. And they were commercial pilots are 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:40.360 seeing these things and reporting on them. Well, yeah, because 0:16:40.360 --> 0:16:43.200 they were silver at first, they weren't painted the cooler 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:47.040 black color until later on. I guess with the touring 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:50.040 models that they started to pump out there and they 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:53.000 you know, were very reflective, so at sunrise and at sunset, 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:57.520 these things would cast these weird lights and uh, you know, 0:16:57.560 --> 0:16:59.520 commercial pilots, because they didn't know this was a thing, 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:01.600 would say, hey, there's something going on a way up 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:04.440 above me, or people would see them from the ground. Yeah, 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:09.520 flying really fast, really high, and looking like fire. Yeah, 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:12.720 because this started I think testerones in the mid nineteen fifties, 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:16.120 so that coincides with a lot of these sightings. Yeah. 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:18.600 So this this c I a memo for that was 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:23.520 declassified in basically said, by our estimate of that seven 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:32.000 one unidentified UM report of the reports that were remain unidentified, 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:36.080 Project bluebooks files, UM are you two and SR seventy 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:39.520 one test flights can probably account for about half of those, right, 0:17:40.440 --> 0:17:44.440 which whittles that number down dramatically. Should we take another break? 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:47.040 All right, We'll take a break and come back and 0:17:47.040 --> 0:18:16.440 talk about the return of Heineck right after this, Chuck, 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:20.840 this is going so well. Thanks, I'm really impressed. Good 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:25.040 so Heinich, He said he returned, but really he never 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:29.879 went anywhere. He's still plodding along doing his thing. He 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:32.840 started out at Project sign. By this time it's blue book. 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:35.359 It's like us with this place. How many times has 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:39.119 it changed hands? A million? We're still here. We're like 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:43.440 the Heinecks here of how stuff works. So um with 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:48.200 with the years, however, Heinek himself seems to have changed, 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:51.400 and he changed probably earlier than he made it public 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:56.399 that he had changed. But he later said, you know what, everybody, 0:18:56.720 --> 0:18:59.199 I actually think that these UFOs are a thing at 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:01.439 the very least some stuff we can't explain, and we 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:04.840 should be investigating them way more scientifically than we are. 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:08.000 And that really flew in the face of the public 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:11.240 face that he had, which by the by the time 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:13.800 he he came out and said that had become something 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:16.879 of a laughing stock at the behest of the Air Force. Yeah, 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:20.399 like what the change was is Repelled left in nineteen 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:22.840 fifty three and he was the dude that kind of 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:27.080 had it running like a legit investigatory body. He left, 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:29.399 and then Heineck says it basically just became a pr 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:33.560 device um and the stats prove it out. It was 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:38.200 the unexplained case rate of up to that we talked 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:42.760 about after Repelled left that went down to one, which 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:46.480 is just an insult. Even if you're a skeptic, that's 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:49.399 an insult, right, because again they would use anything that 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:52.520 they could think of, including planets that weren't even visible 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:55.040 in the sky at the time. There was very famously 0:19:55.160 --> 0:20:02.040 one UM where I think there was a sighting in Oklahoma, 0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:08.440 I believe, Yeah, yeah, there was a the Oklahoma State 0:20:08.480 --> 0:20:12.800 Police Tinker Air Force Base and a meteorologist in Oklahoma 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:16.560 who was using weather radar at the time, all independently 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:21.040 tracked four objects, one of them on radar, and Heinek 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:25.080 in the Air Force of who were doing UM Project 0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:30.480 blue Book representing Project Blue Books, said it was Jupiter. Yeah, 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:33.320 which is not a good explanation for four objects that 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:37.040 are both visually cited and show up on radar, because 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:39.440 Jupiter doesn't show up on radar, and it certainly doesn't 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:42.880 show up as four fast moving objects. Yes, and Jupiter 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:45.840 wasn't even visible in the night sky on that date, right, 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:47.800 So this definitely kind of like is a really good 0:20:47.840 --> 0:20:50.920 example of what what Heinech was having to come out 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:53.880 and say to the public, you know, towards the end 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:58.520 of his UM his Camel's backbreaking. Yeah. And here's the 0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:02.040 thing is, he was still slightly skept I mean, I 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:04.200 don't know about slightly skeptical. He was still a skeptic, 0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:08.920 I guess. But his whole beef was uh. And he says, 0:21:08.960 --> 0:21:12.399 this is a direct quote, he said, everything was negative 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:15.640 and unyielding in their attitude. Everything had to have an explanation. 0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:18.280 And I began to resent that even though I basically 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:20.600 felt the same way. I thought they weren't going about 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:23.000 it in the right way. So that was the deal 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:26.360 is the Air Force was just sort of an obligatory 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:30.160 stamp of not true. It was this, and he was like, well, 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:34.119 I don't necessarily think it's a alien saucer either, but like, 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:36.639 can we investigate it and get like a real explanation 0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:39.040 at least? Yeah, that was definitely his thing. And then 0:21:39.080 --> 0:21:42.160 the other thing was that one through line that has 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:47.880 kept skeptics interested in this is credible observers reporting incredible, 0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:50.920 unexplainable things. That's right. So those two things, the Air 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:52.760 Force jurking him in the way that they were carrying 0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:56.960 out the investigation, and these credible observers actually caused him 0:21:57.000 --> 0:22:00.400 to undergo a conversion. There's a debate, oh, for whether 0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:02.840 it was a slow conversion or a quick conversion. Some 0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:05.919 people suspect that he was actually a lifelong believer and 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:08.159 that he just kind of kept it under wraps. But 0:22:08.240 --> 0:22:11.400 even after you underwent this conversion, which has been estimated 0:22:11.400 --> 0:22:14.960 to have happened around nineteen sixty, he kept it. He 0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:18.120 kept quiet, as a matter of fact, for years, and 0:22:18.280 --> 0:22:22.399 he didn't want to stake his personal reputation, his professional career, 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:26.560 all that stuff on just coming out and being like, hey, everybody, 0:22:26.560 --> 0:22:29.639 the Air Force is lying to you, especially considering that 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:33.119 the general public by this time had had completely bought 0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:36.119 into the idea that the Air Force was just blatantly 0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:39.960 and clumsily trying to cover up knowledge of UFOs and 0:22:40.280 --> 0:22:42.640 their reality. Yeah, he said he was kind of waiting 0:22:42.680 --> 0:22:46.399 for the big one, right, like something so irrefutable that 0:22:46.520 --> 0:22:49.359 he could actually really go public with it. All right, Well, 0:22:49.400 --> 0:22:52.440 let's talk about the swamp gas in Michigan. This is 0:22:52.480 --> 0:22:56.160 in March nineteen sixty six, very famous case. Uh, there 0:22:56.200 --> 0:22:58.960 was a sighting over several days or hundreds of people 0:22:59.760 --> 0:23:04.679 that reported glowing objects hovering and flying around an arbor Michigan, 0:23:05.359 --> 0:23:08.560 and then a bunch of towns along the countryside between 0:23:08.880 --> 0:23:13.480 Toledo and Detroit. Same thing. Eight seven students at Hillsdale 0:23:13.520 --> 0:23:16.520 College in Michigan, and they all said the same stuff 0:23:16.560 --> 0:23:19.399 as that we've seen these objects with red, white and 0:23:19.440 --> 0:23:23.240