Speaker 1: You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and
Speaker 1: Tim Stenebeck on Bloomberg Radio. All right, well, we just
Speaker 1: had a great chat Carroll, as you know, about the
Speaker 1: future of AI, the disruption of big ideas, so exciting.
Speaker 1: The future is here and now, but we've got the
Speaker 1: old school problems. We've still got left to think. In
Speaker 1: one of those problems, gender equality. What a new slash
Speaker 1: for us, Carol Masser. So true, right, still tough to
Speaker 1: be a woman in the workplace, guys. So on the
Speaker 1: first day of Women's History Month, we are thrilled to
Speaker 1: be joined by Carol Gefner, Professor of the Practice of
Speaker 1: Governance and Management at USC's Sole Price School of Public Policy.
Speaker 1: Fight On Carol. Her new book, Building a New Leadership
Speaker 1: Ladder Transforming male dominated Organizations to support Women on the
Speaker 1: Rise is out now and she joins us via zoom
Speaker 1: from La Carol, great to speak with you, and thanks
Speaker 1: for being here. Talk to us about the book and
Speaker 1: what's different about it. Because there's so many books and
Speaker 1: there's so much advice out there about how to survive
Speaker 1: the workplace as a woman. What's unique about yours? Yes,
Speaker 1: thank you and it's great to be here, and I
Speaker 1: do unders and that you are a trojan as well, Madison.
Speaker 1: So with that being said, most books, and you know,
Speaker 1: your audiences, as you said, has been smothered with books
Speaker 1: about leadership and gender and so on. Most books look
Speaker 1: at the individual. Most books say, hey, if you do this,
Speaker 1: and you do that, and you learn this skill and
Speaker 1: you you know, use your voice, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, you
Speaker 1: are going to be more successful, you will advance in
Speaker 1: your career. Well that's not true. That's only half true.
Speaker 1: The other half of that story is that the organization
Speaker 1: needs to do a lot of hard work to change
Speaker 1: up their systems, their policies, their processes, and that's not
Speaker 1: being done. A lot it is being done in some cases.
Speaker 1: But if that is not done, women actually do not
Speaker 1: tend to advance through the most senior levels, and the
Speaker 1: data supports that. So, Carol, you work with companies conversations.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, this is not a new problem.
Speaker 1: Been talking about it for a long time. So what
Speaker 1: is it that companies? I mean, you tell them this,
Speaker 1: you know, we have these conversations on and on and on.
Speaker 1: We had a great guest yesterday that said, it's got
Speaker 1: to be enough when it comes to diversity and inclusion.
Speaker 1: Enough talking like, let's see action. So tell me about
Speaker 1: some of these conversations that you have with companies and
Speaker 1: why they aren't getting it done. Sure, so I do
Speaker 1: work within the business sector, but also the public sector,
Speaker 1: so I have a broad point of view. And you know,
Speaker 1: to your point, this is an old conversation, and that's
Speaker 1: one of the reasons I wrote the book, because it's
Speaker 1: an old conversation. Let's change the conversation. So to get
Speaker 1: it done, the organization needs to invest all the way.
Speaker 1: You know you can't. You can't open a d EI office,
Speaker 1: hire a d EI officer and just track numbers and
Speaker 1: think that that's where your job start stops. Actually that's
Speaker 1: where it starts. So in order to make a difference,
Speaker 1: and there are some organizations that are doing this. In fact,
Speaker 1: I have a client right now our company is working
Speaker 1: with to in fact change it up. What companies have
Speaker 1: to do is they have to be prepared for. First
Speaker 1: of all, a commitment that lasts. It costs money and
Speaker 1: it costs other resources. You have to really change the policies,
Speaker 1: the practices, the procedures. And I know that sounds very heady,
Speaker 1: but if you don't do a deep dive and change
Speaker 1: what's going on in the organization, then what you've got
Speaker 1: is a bunch of individuals making decisions every day. And
Speaker 1: we're all human, we all have biases, myself included, and
Speaker 1: that's what tends to reign supreme. So as an example,
Speaker 1: our firm right now is working in a lot of spaces,
Speaker 1: but one of them happens to be law enforcement. And
Speaker 1: the head of this particular organization is one hundred percent
Speaker 1: committed and has been working for almost two years to
Speaker 1: get this to happen, and they are now with us
Speaker 1: starting to look at all the relevant policies. You know,
Speaker 1: who comes in the door, who gets hired, who gets promoted,
Speaker 1: who gets transferred, what's happening to women along the way,
Speaker 1: and not just women, of course, all marginalized communities and
Speaker 1: us and sectors and segments. So that's what's needed. And
Speaker 1: the starting point is a CEO, a president, a chief,
Speaker 1: whatever your context is. Where it starts is at the
Speaker 1: top and takes a lot of courage. So it starts
Speaker 1: at the top. But what is the single biggest company
Speaker 1: wide change that you have seen companies make after having
Speaker 1: worked with you that you've seen be successful. So that
Speaker 1: if you know, let's say a CEO is listening to
Speaker 1: this program right now, what's one change that they could make,
Speaker 1: great question. So they make it more than just a priority.
Speaker 1: They make it more than just you know, the strategic
Speaker 1: priority for the next year. They build it into everything
Speaker 1: they do. They build it into their mission, they build
Speaker 1: it into their vision that their values. They I mean,
Speaker 1: these are the big changes when you ask me, what
Speaker 1: do I see? This is the work that our clients
Speaker 1: are doing, and they hold people accountable. In the business sector,
Speaker 1: here's here's what can happen. And some of actually my
Speaker 1: clients have done. They tie incentive systems, that is, bonuses
Speaker 1: for people who are at levels where they get bonuses.
Speaker 1: They tie bonuses to progress, measurable progress. Is that there
Speaker 1: is that also and we're just because we're running out
Speaker 1: a time, Carl. Is it also happening in a big
Speaker 1: way in publicly held companies because I just feel like
Speaker 1: we go through this with ESG metrics or impact on
Speaker 1: the climate that unless there's really some kind of penalty
Speaker 1: by investors or otherwise, a company really is just focusing rightfully.
Speaker 1: So perhaps you know, on returning value to shareholders. So
Speaker 1: it just got about thirty seconds left here. Are you
Speaker 1: seeing this move in the public sector and publicly held companies? Yeah, yes,
Speaker 1: I wish I was Pollyanna, but I'm not so not enough.
Speaker 1: And you know, the wizzened the small segment of companies
Speaker 1: that are you know, sophificated ahead of the game, setting
Speaker 1: the curve. They're the ones that understand that at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, if you only focus on return
Speaker 1: and ROI and shareholder results, you are missing the game
Speaker 1: in terms of retention and recruitment of top talent and
Speaker 1: all the other aspects that come along with building a
Speaker 1: great organizational culture, which actually is the glue for making
Speaker 1: this work. All right, Carol, thank you so much. Carol Gefner.
Speaker 1: She is Professor of the Practice of Governance and Management
Speaker 1: at USC's so Prize School of Public Policy USC. You're
Speaker 1: all a monor and we love it. We know it,
Speaker 1: we love it. Her new book is called Building a
Speaker 1: New Leadership Ladder. You are listening and watching Bluebirg Radio