1 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: On this episode of news World. I am honored and 2 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: delighted to have an old friend, a mentor, somebody I've 3 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: learned from for almost I guess half a century, doctor 4 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: Henry Kissinger. He is one of the most remarkable people 5 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 1: in modern America. At ninety nine, he has written a 6 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: new book which I recommend to everyone called Leadership six 7 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 1: Studies in World Strategy, and it's a sign of his 8 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: extraordinary life that each of the leaders is somebody he's 9 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: known personally. Henry, thank you very much for joining me 10 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: on Newtsworld. You and I have known each other for 11 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: many decades, and I have expected you're thinking and considered 12 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 1: you it's strategic think that, and that it's what the 13 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: country importantly needs. So I'm happy to be here with you. 14 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 1: I want to start at a personal level before we 15 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 1: get to the book, which as you know, I've written 16 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: a review of as a newsletter and urged everyone to 17 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: look at because it's so remarkable. But first I want 18 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: to establish a couple of things. When you and your 19 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: family fled Germany to escape the Nazi regime you were 20 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: very young. Did you have any notion that you'd have 21 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: an extraordinary life like this? But when we lived Germany, 22 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: I had gesturned fifteen we've been living in not to Germany, 23 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: in which be Jewish we had no legal rights, and 24 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: Hitler youth could beat me up in the streets if 25 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: there was their ideas, which occasionally happened. So when I 26 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:13,679 Speaker 1: came to America, I had no idea that some day 27 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: I might be Secretary of State and advisor to President 28 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 1: and senior leaders of the Countress. But within the first 29 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: months I experienced that I was living in a country 30 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 1: of democracy. And in high school I wrote an essay 31 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: that sometimes I met people with whom I grew up. 32 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: But when I reflected in America, I can walk on 33 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: the street with my head erect. Then it was depleted 34 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 1: experiences of my life to get here. You know, you 35 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: became a naturalized citizen in nineteen forty three, which, by 36 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: the ways, the year I was born, And then you 37 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: joined the army and received a bronze star serving in Europe. 38 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: When you came back, you ended up ultimately becoming a 39 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 1: faculty member at Harvard and created quite a name for 40 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 1: yourself as a young man with several very seminar books. 41 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 1: When there is a top of water dive, But I 42 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: had to go through college again, because before the war, 43 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: I had been working in the saving Bridge factory and 44 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: gone to school at night, and so I didn't make 45 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: it to college until after the war. Were you able 46 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: to use the g I bill? After the war? I 47 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 1: used the GP I couldn't make food. That's great. What 48 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: college were you at? I wasn't have it. So you've 49 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: had a narrow education national experience, Betting educated and then 50 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: teaching at Harvard. I didn't know there were any repugnicant. 51 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: It's always interested me as I think you may know. 52 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,839 Speaker 1: I was a Rockefeller state chairman in nineteen sixty eight. 53 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: In many ways, your rise came through Nelson Rockefeller before 54 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: Richard Nixon. How did that occur? Nelson Arckefella was especially 55 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: it's president dies now for but it's called psychological strategy 56 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 1: at that time, but it's today. The National Security Council 57 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: was divided into two parts, the National Security Council that 58 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 1: it's long range planning and the Psychological Strategy Board that 59 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: was supposed to think of the future and Zychological Strategy 60 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: Board more focused energy, was focused on immediate That division 61 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: was dropped after so Rockefellers doing a report on the 62 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 1: future of the International Work System after the SEMIT meetings 63 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 1: of ninety fifteen of ane relative place, and he invited 64 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: me to participate and to help draft the report that 65 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 1: it had started our relationship in friendship. So even though 66 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: you were close to Rockefeller, when Nixon became president, he 67 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: turned to you and brought you in as a senior 68 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,119 Speaker 1: thinker I think in the area he most cared about, 69 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: which was national security foreign policy. That was sort of 70 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: a tribute to you to be able to bridge both 71 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:09,919 Speaker 1: those personalities. It was totally surprised to be invited. I 72 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: had never met Nix, and it was very thurageous of 73 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: him to take somebody who had been with the opposition 74 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 1: to him. And when I as reckove little I should 75 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: do this, he said, remember he's taking a much greater 76 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,679 Speaker 1: risk with you than you with him. But it worked 77 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 1: out well and you developed I think one of the 78 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 1: most unique, almost symbiotic relationships in American white house. Sister. 79 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 1: Somehow you and Nixon could think through things together and 80 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 1: then could jointly enforce it on the bureaucracy in a 81 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: way that is really remarkable. That very good at description 82 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 1: he and I made every morning when we were in town, 83 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: when most mornings, and Nixon like to think, I mean, 84 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: insisted on thinking on an answering the question where are 85 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: we going and where are we trying to come out? 86 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: And he puts it there and take copious notes and 87 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: we then implement them in the which I think other 88 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: presidents would tell you as an extraordinary achievement, because the 89 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: bureaucracy is often deeply resistant to whatever merely elected officials want, 90 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: even if it's the president. I have to ask you, 91 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: you had two parallel extraordinary things going on. One was 92 00:07:56,120 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: the negotiations in Paris, which people have often forgotten how 93 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: intricately Nixon approached trying to find a way to get 94 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: to peace with honor, which was then undone by the 95 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: Congress in nineteen seventy five. But you really managed this 96 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: constant negotiation with the Vietnamese and got a Nobel Peace 97 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: Prize for in nineteen seventy three. At the same time 98 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: you are the lead figure in opening up China. How 99 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: would you rate those two and compare those the remarkable achievements? 100 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: And you were doing both at the same time. Ending 101 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: thevor in Vietnam was a necessity in order to help 102 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: yield the divisions in the country and it was a 103 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: necessity also so that our allies did not see America 104 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:58,679 Speaker 1: defeated in such a major effort. It was something that 105 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: had to be cleaned way. Opening to China created news 106 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: strategic options because after then China and the Soviet Union 107 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:20,199 Speaker 1: as Russia wasn't called, presented a united clock, which we 108 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 1: debates and the democracy. By opening to China, they became 109 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: gradually split, and it gave us an opportunity to balance 110 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:39,679 Speaker 1: them against each other. And our instructions to the miaucracy 111 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:45,559 Speaker 1: were positioned yourself in such a way that we are 112 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: closer to both Russia and China that they are to 113 00:09:50,200 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: each other, and that for about thirty years created a 114 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: considerable stability in the relationship with both China and Russia 115 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: that it is now to indigrate now. When I say stability, 116 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: the basic position of the Nixon period was that if 117 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: Russia transgress, it's a point we would resist, and we 118 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: would know them we are resisted. And on two occasions 119 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: we went on alert and we'd stuffed awards in the 120 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: Middle East that had been started with irrasitional aggression. So 121 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: while conducting a complicated diplomat, the next administration also conducted 122 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 1: it complicated strategic effort that maintained and strengthened the balance 123 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: of power in the world while moving towards speeds in 124 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:25,319 Speaker 1: Vietnam and in the end even beginning to eat relations 125 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: with pleasure. Did the opening with China strengthen your hand 126 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: in Moscow and make it easier to work with the Russians. 127 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: It's strengthened our hand enormously. And one demonstration of this 128 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: is before I went to China, we had attempted to 129 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:55,959 Speaker 1: do it's gouts, it's ovid interests in a summit with 130 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 1: mixed and the ends of wars that we needed to 131 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: help some Soviet purposes, that burning and other agues. Before 132 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: they considered the summit, well we know that answer. But 133 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: within two months of our opening to China, they came 134 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: back and offered as an unconditional summit in Moscow, in 135 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: which the whole bridge was the beginning of some strategic agreements, 136 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:50,719 Speaker 1: unscatroled agreements from the limitation of the major epons of destruction. Hi. 137 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 1: This is newt We have serious decisions to make about 138 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: the future of our country. Americans must confront big government socialism, 139 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: which has taken over the modern Democratic Party, big business, 140 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: news media, entertainment and academia. My new bestselling book, Defeating 141 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: Big Government Socialism Saving America's Future, offers strategies and insights 142 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: for everyday citizens to save America's future and ensure it 143 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,199 Speaker 1: remains the greatest nation on Earth. Here's a special offer 144 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: for my podcast listeners. You can order an autograph copy 145 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: of my new book, Defeating Big Government Socialism right now 146 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: at gingwishtree sixty dot com slash book and we'll ship 147 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: it directly to you. Don't miss out on this special offer. 148 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 1: It's only available for a limited time. Go to gingwishtree 149 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 1: sixty dot com slash book to order your copy now. 150 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: Order it today at gingwishtree sixty dot com slash book. 151 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: Part of the reason that I wanted to start with 152 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: your own personal experiences that one of the things you 153 00:13:54,920 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 1: do that amazes me is you're a great historian. Original 154 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 1: work was in history, and you've lived history, so you 155 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: are able in this new book, which I really do 156 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: recommend everybody on leadership, you're able both to talk about 157 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 1: people you had met and worked with personally, but to 158 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: bring to it sort of the dual perspective of the 159 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 1: academic and the actual practitioner. And I'm curious you pick 160 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: Conrad at Nower, Charles de Gaulle, Richard Nixon, and war 161 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: sadat Leque. You and Margaret Thatcher. You know there are 162 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: many other people that you knew and worked with. What 163 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: led you to pick these six six working in cooperation? 164 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: And that would say all except the governing and democratic 165 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: states and that person and it dipped leaders who made 166 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: peace of DALs who he lived in that building. I'm 167 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: trying to destroy the elements that are needed in strengthen 168 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: the international order, and that wrote the major purpose of 169 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: this book. I'm thinking of writing now another book about 170 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: dealing with adversaries. It's a less elevating job than building 171 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: and the international order, although it's a necessary job. There's 172 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: a child. I lived in Germany, I lived in France. 173 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: I was there when the paratroopers killed the Fourth Republic 174 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: and brought back de gaul And I read these with fascination. 175 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: And I wasn't as close to Thatcher as you were, 176 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: but she had a huge impact on the work we did, 177 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: starting with her election in nineteen seventy nine. And what 178 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: I'm struck with it is makes this book, I think 179 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: so brilliant. You're able to take each of these leaders 180 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: and show how they had a unique strategy which fit 181 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 1: their particular needs and which they were able to stick 182 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: with it. I mean in some circumstances that were really 183 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: extraordinarily difficult, and of course, in the case of anwar, 184 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: Sadati lost his life following a visionary strategy. Did it 185 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: strike you at the time you were dealing with them 186 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: how consistently strategic these six people were, or did that 187 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: occur later as you look back and thought about it? 188 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: Do stam extent? It occurred to me while I was 189 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: dealing with them that they would exceive me unusual people. 190 00:16:55,040 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: But the extent of their strategic thinking became clear only 191 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: with the evolution of their policies, which, as you said, 192 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: doing there they do insists on v to them pure 193 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 1: actresses in their opposition, and which they managed to impose 194 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: on their societies. You were once very generous and invited 195 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: me to come out to your farm and spend a 196 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:31,479 Speaker 1: weekend with Lequany and yourself, And I was really struck 197 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 1: with how he had learned things as a graduate student 198 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,479 Speaker 1: in Britain that he then carried the whole rest of 199 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: his life. That he had found some key principles that 200 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 1: he stuck with and that created modern Singapore. Kind of remarkable, 201 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: almost a charisma of the intellect, if you will, is 202 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: belief in free markets, which no other country in the region. 203 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: It's possibly Japan, which was a studying on its recovered him, 204 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 1: but curtinly among the developing countries in Asia. Its insistence 205 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: on free market principles made it possible to build up 206 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 1: its country to the standards it now. As I was struck. 207 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: This may be because my childhood was so shaped by 208 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 1: Degall's return in nineteen fifty eight. But of the six 209 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 1: of them, it seems to me Degall is the one 210 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:37,479 Speaker 1: who has, in a way the strongest ego and the 211 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: greatest capacity for inventing himself. From the time he has 212 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: to flee France as a traitor to Vichy, France convinced 213 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: Churchill and Fdr to deal with him, even though he 214 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: really has no assets, and has this sense of Somebody 215 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,360 Speaker 1: once said, if your name is de Gall, your Charles 216 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 1: of France, somehow it may shape how you think about everything. 217 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: But don't you look back that almost with a sense 218 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 1: of amazement that he pulled it off. But in nature's faith, 219 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: when you considered that when he arrived in England, he 220 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 1: arrived really without instead of suits, without the language. Its 221 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 1: country had been defeated, and he was the lowest rank 222 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: in general in the French army, and he had only 223 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 1: been made general three weeks before, so he could emerge 224 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:39,360 Speaker 1: from this it's the leader of the free French. Yes, 225 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:47,160 Speaker 1: incredible Churches said to him, I'm alone and you're alone, 226 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:52,400 Speaker 1: so we might as well work together. But it leads 227 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: Churchill had still a country with him the call when 228 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: he started in England, and only did people that it 229 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: had been evacuated from duncode and they were free to 230 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: return to friend So there was I doubt that he 231 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: had a thousand people with him at the beginning. Well, 232 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: and when he does get back, and he does become 233 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: president of the new France in the Fourth Republic after 234 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: winning the war, he then has the internal requirement to 235 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 1: resign because, as he says, de Gaul can't work with 236 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: the pygmies of the French political class. And at the 237 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: time he thought they'd call him back in about eighteen months, 238 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: but in fact it took about a decade. And I 239 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: had this sense with Nixon that there are certain people 240 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:53,120 Speaker 1: who have to follow who they are, and therefore there's 241 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,919 Speaker 1: actually no downside risk because they have no alternative. I 242 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: don't know if that makes any sense. I think that 243 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: a good point. I hadn't elaborated it in that way, 244 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 1: but it is true. The difference between the Gall and 245 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: ni perspect was that Nixon was a great strategic thinker, 246 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:24,640 Speaker 1: but he did not have the Gaul's campacity to move 247 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: his whole people. But in terms of strategy thinking, they 248 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 1: had great similarities, and they also got along very well 249 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 1: with each other. And at a point when Nixon was 250 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: out of office and had just been defeated in running 251 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: for governor of California two, he was sort of being 252 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: politically finished, the Gaul invited him to visit him in Paris, 253 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: and then their relationship was resumed the Nixton became president, 254 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: but that was less than a year before the goal. 255 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: It resigned again badly big because he thought he himself 256 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: all the big problems and he didn't want to come 257 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: to trade on all what he considered the petty problems 258 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: of day to day delt. We're chatting the week that 259 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 1: sadly Queen Elizabeth the second passed away, and of course 260 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,679 Speaker 1: she has been with on occasions, and we earlier I 261 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: had done a podcast which talked about her relationship with 262 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 1: Lady Thatcher, and I've brought up your book and the 263 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: point you make about Lady Thatcher that despite being tough 264 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: in public, she was actually a very kind and generous 265 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 1: person in private, and I think you write that in 266 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 1: a very loving way in your chapter on her. Well. 267 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:24,159 Speaker 1: I had great affection for her, and she did represent 268 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:32,199 Speaker 1: its combination of extreme strength in defending her conventions, of 269 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: great humanity in her relationship with people individually. And actually 270 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: I make the point at the end of the book 271 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:50,360 Speaker 1: and the paragraphs that one can explain her properly without 272 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:56,679 Speaker 1: including the love she had for her country and for 273 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: the importance of her country. When I met her the 274 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: first time, she had just been elected leader of the 275 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: Conservative Body, but she still had to wait three years 276 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: before she won the election. And we were talking about 277 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: campaigns in various democratic countries and that they all fought 278 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 1: for the middle ground, that everybody try to achieved and 279 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 1: compromise to it. She said that would not be what 280 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: she would do. She thought her responsibility as a leader 281 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 1: was to put forward her convincence and to move the 282 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: middle ground towards her position and not to have to 283 00:24:54,520 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: move to the middle ground. And she day that all 284 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 1: the life and revolution nights the Conservative body and some 285 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: of the basic principles are still the essence of the 286 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 1: Conservative Body. I was struck that she actually had an 287 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 1: ability to have a strategic goal and to stick to 288 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 1: it no matter what her allies, her friends, the news media, 289 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 1: you name it. I mean, she knew where she was going. 290 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 1: I have a good illustration of its during devolved in 291 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: the crisis when the Argentines had taken over a British 292 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 1: islands involvedans of the coast of South America, and I 293 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: had been invited to deliver a speech at the British Philonophis, 294 00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 1: and she invited me to tea. But for that I 295 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: had at lunch with the Foreign Secretary and with most 296 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: of his advisers, and they all were either of it 297 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: for a negotiation without Utina, and they had given me 298 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 1: some options for a negotiation at lunch. So when I 299 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: saw her at late afternoon, I asked her which options 300 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:36,120 Speaker 1: she a favorite, But she was so outraged that they 301 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 1: word out, and so annoyed that anyone could even suggest 302 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: that that I didn't dare to tell her that I 303 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:53,880 Speaker 1: had cut them from her own advisers. But anyway, she 304 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: managed to create a fleet that went all the way 305 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 1: from Britain to the Voltland. The versic principle words, what 306 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: cannot permit sovereignty to be overthrown by military actions? It's 307 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: a problem very similar we have in in Ukraine today. 308 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: And secondly, she thought it was important for the Atlantic 309 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: Alliance and for the three people who were working together 310 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 1: that England did not look at if it could be 311 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:41,199 Speaker 1: pushed over by military food. And she stuck to it, 312 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: and she achieved both of her obtate, and I think 313 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: I gave her a unique status, almost more than any 314 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 1: Prime Minister since Churchill. Of somebody who would risk everything 315 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 1: to protect and defend Britain, she certainly in a period 316 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 1: it and after I had the honor of being invited 317 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: to the funeral service at Saint Paul's and the Queen attended. 318 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: The Queen and had not attended any funeral service for 319 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 1: the Prime minutester except for Churchill. So it was a 320 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: wonderful example of the role of the British monarchy because 321 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: in her bearing and conduct at the funeral, she symbolized 322 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: how important that had been for the country. Even though 323 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: the queen cannot take a political position. She did. She 324 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: raised that above being a prime minute too, as a 325 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: I didn't figure to produce history. Of the six people 326 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: you write about, the one who I think is both 327 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: the most romantic and the most tragic is a war Sadan. 328 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: And I thought that chapter of your book was particularly 329 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: inspiring and in a sense stimulating, because you put Saddan 330 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: in a context of trying to literally change a cultural moment, 331 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: not just a political moment, and taking just enormous risk 332 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: to do it. I think said that would probably not 333 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: have been exascinated if he had negotiated with it's the 334 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: underbass of immediate tactically issues. But he explained to his 335 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: people and the month to the Islamic world that the 336 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:08,719 Speaker 1: pattern of thinking had to be changed if one wanted 337 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: a peaceful world. And where Adams had refused to negotiate 338 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: with this room for many decades, he not only negotiated 339 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:29,479 Speaker 1: with his realm. He went to Jerusalem and made its 340 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: speech in which he said, we both have to overcome 341 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: basic rejudicies and we have to build such a world. 342 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: And he managed to get up to negotiate a piece 343 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: of grievement, but too many people in its own country 344 00:30:51,640 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 1: wouldn't forgive him for its successes. But it was inspiring 345 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: because he had had the courage to start the seventy 346 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: three wore with its little because he wanted to show 347 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: that he was acting from real convision and strength. And 348 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: then I had the negotiation with him, and I was 349 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: wondering how difficult that might be, because after then he 350 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 1: had been more of the apparently more of the adding inside. 351 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: And so we got into the negotiating room and he 352 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: sat down and he said, I want a new solution. 353 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 1: I wanted kids and shot solution. That was a tribute 354 00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: to the Secretary of State position my head, which meant 355 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: he wanted the American approach that we want. We cannot 356 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 1: settled it all at once, but we can make peace 357 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 1: on a country by country basis. And then he did that, 358 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: and without contribution, but without that basic conviction to which 359 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 1: he had come that you have an international order, you 360 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: need conceptual agreements, it probably couldn't have been done. He 361 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: was a moving personality. That's well. I got the impression 362 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: of all the personalities he wrote about, he's, in a sense, 363 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: the most transcendent that he had reached beyond his own 364 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 1: experience and beyond his own culture, and had a vision 365 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: and was prepared to sacrifice his life for that vision 366 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: and beyond the media tactic. Leaf us he in that 367 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 1: sent he was unique. When I wrote my newsletter about 368 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 1: leadership and urged everybody to go buy it, I got 369 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: a note from one of our readers, Mark Harvat, who 370 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 1: wanted me to ask you so on behalf of Mark. 371 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 1: He says, please ask doctor Kissinger what he thinks of 372 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,959 Speaker 1: the Abraham Accords. And he wanted to say that he 373 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: used to work in the Middle East in the nineteen 374 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 1: eighties and never thought it would be possible to have 375 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 1: that kind of agreement. I know you've talked about a 376 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 1: little bit in some other places, but what is your 377 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 1: sense of the role of the Abraham Accords and the 378 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: evolution of the region. Abraham could be a breakthrough in 379 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 1: the tradition of what we've been talking about, of what 380 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: said that was attempted to achieve because the countries that 381 00:33:53,680 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: made it, we're relatively small in size, fairly rich because 382 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 1: of the oil. But they took a broad view beyond 383 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: dially military confrontations. They depend importantly in their day to 384 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 1: day life. Saudi Arabia and Egypt has much larger countries, 385 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:32,760 Speaker 1: but they took that basic step for themselves. But they 386 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 1: have achieved substantial support from Egypt and more support than 387 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 1: its apparent from Saudi Arabia really on these issues, they're 388 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 1: moving in the same direction. And with the issue of 389 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 1: Iran coming up in the day, he is and it's 390 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 1: really important agreement that links its real to key Arab 391 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 1: countries in a way that had been achieved previously. Only 392 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 1: did need agreement to that. I had the sense that 393 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 1: you wrote this book on leadership in part because you 394 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: instinctively are worried that the system is less likely today 395 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,879 Speaker 1: to produce leaders with this kind of capability, and that 396 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,839 Speaker 1: we really need to think deeply about how we're going 397 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 1: to educate and recruit and get people to this level 398 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: of historic capability. Would that'd be a pretty accurate sense 399 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 1: that you are worried about how the system has in 400 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: a sense decayed well a system. In order to try 401 00:35:54,200 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 1: to create a system of stipidity in progress in a 402 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 1: country and of international order between nations, you need visions 403 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 1: that go beyond the day to day tactical problems that 404 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 1: rives in the normal course of events that inspire your 405 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: to deal with these practical problems. But remember that a 406 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 1: vision is needed to bring the practical to the visionary. 407 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 1: And in the contemporary world, and regretibly in most democratic countries, 408 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: this visionary element is declining. And these countries define their 409 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: domestic practically issue and it's the only valid ones and 410 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 1: there for the unity in the country. It's diminishing. And 411 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:17,239 Speaker 1: at the same time technology is producing such a change 412 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: in human life foo Wich. There are no categories. If 413 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:33,480 Speaker 1: you cannot develop some common mission and conceptual approaches, that 414 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: I would say is maybe the biggest challenge of a 415 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:42,760 Speaker 1: contemporary patient. I want to close with a personal note. 416 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 1: You may remember a while back I called you. I 417 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:49,319 Speaker 1: think I was, oh, seventy seven or something time, and 418 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,959 Speaker 1: you're exactly twenty years older than me, and I said, 419 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,279 Speaker 1: what's your advice about getting older? And you said, you're 420 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: too young to have this conversation. I would say, the 421 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: dealing with you at ninety nine. First of all, this 422 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: is a book any leader at any age would be 423 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 1: proud of. It's a remarkable book. And have you now 424 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,319 Speaker 1: explaining your next work, which I am confident will be 425 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: equally brilliant. You are truly a model of what citizenship 426 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: can be like, and somebody who's a truly historic figure. 427 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: I remember that many conversations we have had over the years, 428 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:30,719 Speaker 1: and when you will speaking house, what I putted the 429 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:43,839 Speaker 1: conceptual and inspirational objectives you had deep sometimes do improvement 430 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:51,439 Speaker 1: over a period of decades, that you have played an 431 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 1: important rule from what I've been able to do. Well, 432 00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:00,160 Speaker 1: I think it's important, and you are an example. I 433 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 1: wish we had more people doing because each generation has 434 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:09,080 Speaker 1: to learn from prior generations or they're doomed to repeat 435 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,799 Speaker 1: the mistakes and to run the risk. And I think 436 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 1: your body of work since leaving public office is frankly 437 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 1: as important a contribution to the future of the human 438 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,759 Speaker 1: race as the work you did while you were in office. Well, 439 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,719 Speaker 1: I'm very touch by what you've said throughout this contrap 440 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 1: and it's really remarkable they over such a long period 441 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: of time you have maintained a leadership position. Well between us, 442 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:44,759 Speaker 1: we may get something done together and then another twenty 443 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:46,239 Speaker 1: years from now, I want to call you and ask 444 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 1: your advice in getting older. Henry, I want to thank 445 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,239 Speaker 1: you for joining me. This has been great fun. I 446 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:55,640 Speaker 1: hope you felt some usefulness and some positive about doing 447 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,800 Speaker 1: it in your book, Leadership six Studies in World Strategy. 448 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,759 Speaker 1: I encourage everyone to buy a copy, and I hope 449 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,520 Speaker 1: this podcast will convince them that you were worth learning 450 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:11,399 Speaker 1: from exactly good as much. Thank you to my guest, 451 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,520 Speaker 1: Henry Kissinger. You can get a link to buy his 452 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 1: new book, Leadership six Studies and World Strategy on our 453 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,640 Speaker 1: show page at newtsworld dot com. Newts World is produced 454 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:27,280 Speaker 1: by gingwistreet sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Garnsey Sloan, 455 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,880 Speaker 1: our producer is Rebecca Howe, and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 456 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,560 Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. 457 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:39,680 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Gingwich three sixty. If 458 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,320 Speaker 1: you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple 459 00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,879 Speaker 1: Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give 460 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,880 Speaker 1: us a review so others can learn what it's all about. 461 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of newts World can sign up for 462 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:56,359 Speaker 1: my three free weekly columns at gingwicht sixty dot com 463 00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:00,680 Speaker 1: slash newsletter I'm newt Gingrich is neutral