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Speaker 1: Hey everybody. Before we get started today, we want to

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Speaker 1: make sure everyone knows about our upcoming live shows. First up,

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Speaker 1: Holly will be at Salt Lake Comic Con September one, three.

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Speaker 1: I won't be able to make it to that one,

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Speaker 1: so past guest and friend of the show, Brian Young

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Speaker 1: will be talking with her about laun Cheney. Then on

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Speaker 1: October six am, we will be appearing as part of

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Speaker 1: New York Comic Con Presents and we'll be talking about

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Speaker 1: the first comic book. You can find out more information

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Speaker 1: on all of this ticket links everything like that if

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Speaker 1: you go to missed in History dot com and click

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Speaker 1: the link that says live shows. Welcome to steph you

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Speaker 1: missed in History class from how Stuff Works dot com.

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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy V. Wilson

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Speaker 1: and I'm Holly Fine. Earlier this year, I went to

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Speaker 1: the World History Association's annual conference here in Boston. It

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Speaker 1: was an awesome time. I also picked up a lot

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Speaker 1: of ideas for potential podcast topics or got my memory

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Speaker 1: jog about ones I already wanted to do previously. So

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Speaker 1: the conference reminded me that I had wanted to talk

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Speaker 1: about Ibn Batuta so that's why we finally got our

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Speaker 1: Ibn Batuta episode not long ago. It also planted the

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Speaker 1: seed for this week's episode, so along with of course

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Speaker 1: more that will probably come at some point in the future.

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Speaker 1: One of the presentations I saw was about a mean

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Speaker 1: pasha who's rescue in the finger quotes whether it was

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Speaker 1: really a rescue or not, it's kind of questionable. Rescue

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Speaker 1: from Uganda by Henry Morton Stanley became this incredibly popular

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Speaker 1: story in the nineteenth century. Today people are probably more

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Speaker 1: familiar with Stanley's expedition to find Dr David Livingstone, which

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Speaker 1: is about fifteen years earlier. But this meeting between any

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Speaker 1: and Iman Pasha and just Eman Pasha himself wound up

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Speaker 1: being the subjects of articles and stories and books and

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Speaker 1: then being on like all these consumer products, from matches

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Speaker 1: to bullion to chocolate, just an array of things got

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Speaker 1: labeled and branded I Mean Pasha. In addition to all that,

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Speaker 1: though I Mean Pasha story connects to so many things

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Speaker 1: in history that we have not spent a lot of

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Speaker 1: time on, particularly in the context of both the Ottoman

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Speaker 1: Empire and African history. He's one of those people who

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Speaker 1: kept finding himself in the midst of one huge event

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Speaker 1: after another. So we are going to talk about his

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Speaker 1: story in two parts. And today we've got his early

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Speaker 1: years and his time in Albania and how he made

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Speaker 1: his way to Africa, taking a new name in the process,

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Speaker 1: and the next time we will get to how he

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Speaker 1: wound up meeting or maybe not really needing to be

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Speaker 1: rescued by Henry Stanley. And just as one note before

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Speaker 1: we start, Pasha is an horrific title and it indicated

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Speaker 1: a high rank in the Ottoman Empire's military and political system,

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Speaker 1: and it is the last and highest of several that

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Speaker 1: he actually held during his lifetime. But I mean, Pasha

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Speaker 1: is really how everyone knew of him by the end

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Speaker 1: of his life. It's how he's most often sided sided historically.

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Speaker 1: So at some points we will probably wind up saying

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Speaker 1: Emin Pasha, when at that point he had a different

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Speaker 1: title than Pasha. Mehmed Emin Pasha was born Edward Schnitzer

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Speaker 1: on March eighteen forty and what's now Opola in southwestern Poland.

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Speaker 1: At the time it was up Elm Silesia, which was

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Speaker 1: part of the Kingdom of Prussia. His father, Ludwig, was

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Speaker 1: a merchant and although the family were German Jews, they

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Speaker 1: were under enormous pressure to assimilate with their Christian neighbors.

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Speaker 1: When the young Edward was two, they moved the family

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Speaker 1: to nissa Uh, that's near what's now the border between

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Speaker 1: Poland and Germany. And then when he was five, his

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Speaker 1: father died, his mother, Pauline, remarried a Lutheran man, and

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Speaker 1: then after Pauline's marriage, the family officially converted. When Edward

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Speaker 1: was baptized, his name was recorded as Edward carl Oscar

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Speaker 1: Theodore Schnitzer. He also had a sister named Melanie and

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Speaker 1: several other half siblings, not quite sure how many. They're

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Speaker 1: not typically named in his biographies. They're just sort of

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Speaker 1: mentioned as existing a group of siblings on mass We

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Speaker 1: don't have too much detail about his childhood or his education,

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Speaker 1: but we do know that he eventually studied medicine, zoology

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Speaker 1: and ornithology at the universities of Breslau, Berlin and Konigsberg.

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Speaker 1: He did quite well in university, and he was praised

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Speaker 1: as a diligent and industrious student, and he also started

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Speaker 1: publishing his research in journals before he graduated. Although he

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Speaker 1: really loved the comforts of home, and he was devoted

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Speaker 1: to his family. He was also more at ease in

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Speaker 1: intellectual pursuits than in social life at Cool. His family

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Speaker 1: also didn't have a lot of money, and he found

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Speaker 1: that some of his friends did not have quite enough

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Speaker 1: time for him when he was short on funds. So

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Speaker 1: over his university years he became somewhat isolated. He spent

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Speaker 1: more time with books than he spent with people, and

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Speaker 1: at the same time, he was very careful and particular

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Speaker 1: in his address and appearance, and when he did have money,

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Speaker 1: that was what he usually spent it on, and that

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Speaker 1: comes up over and over and over in other people's

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Speaker 1: accounts of him throughout his life. I can't judge. I

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Speaker 1: completely understand. Uh. Edvard earned his m d in eighteen

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Speaker 1: sixty four, but he had trouble getting certified to actually

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Speaker 1: practice medicine in Prussia. He didn't immediately apply to take

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Speaker 1: the required state examination after he graduated, and once he

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Speaker 1: finally did, he was turned down on a technicality too

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Speaker 1: much time had passed since the end of his m

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Speaker 1: d work for him to be eligible to sit for

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Speaker 1: the exam. Biographers have sugged us that a number of

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Speaker 1: possible reasons for this delay between the end of his

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Speaker 1: m d work and his attempt take to take this exam.

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Speaker 1: One of them is that even though he was an

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Speaker 1: overall good student, he had been particularly focused on the

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Speaker 1: more practical parts of medical school and on other courses

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Speaker 1: across the sciences. He has. Interests within the world of

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Speaker 1: science were pretty wide ranging, and that meant that he

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Speaker 1: was not so focused on the particulars that he would

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Speaker 1: need to pass the state exam. Another is it perhaps

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Speaker 1: he'd already started itching to travel, but his family really

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Speaker 1: wasn't in favor of him going away, so being unable

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Speaker 1: to practice medicine at home would have given him a

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Speaker 1: convenient excuse to leave without so much resistance from his

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Speaker 1: mother and sister. There's also some suggestion that anti Semitism

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Speaker 1: may have been a factor in his being turned down

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Speaker 1: for the exam, even though he had converted to Christianity

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Speaker 1: as a child. Regardless of whatever the actual reason was,

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Speaker 1: Edward decided to move somewhere that his failure to take

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Speaker 1: this exam would not be an issue, and he had

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Speaker 1: a couple of options that were open to him. One

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Speaker 1: of them was actually to enter the military and to

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Speaker 1: travel to Mexico. With Archduke Ferdinand Maximilian, who's covered in

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Speaker 1: our archive in the episode Maximilian Mexico's Habsburg Prince. But

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Speaker 1: in the end he instead went to Ottoman Turkey with

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Speaker 1: a plan of either entering the service of the Ottoman

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Speaker 1: Empire in some way or finding some kind of other

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Speaker 1: employment as a doctor. He soon settled in the port

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Speaker 1: of Antivari, Albania, which is now bar Montenegro, where he

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Speaker 1: became the personal physician to several families living in the area.

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Speaker 1: He set himself up with a very tidy and precisely

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Speaker 1: furnished department, where he described his personal study as quote

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Speaker 1: small but the envy of all Antivari. He also had

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Speaker 1: a little garden where he could experiment with agricultural techniques.

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Speaker 1: The position of the port in Antivari and the breadth

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Speaker 1: of the Ottoman Empire meant that I mean Pasha, who

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Speaker 1: at this point was still going by Edward Schnitzer was

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Speaker 1: surrounded by people who spoke a huge variety of languages.

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Speaker 1: He already spoke French, Italian and German, and so he

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Speaker 1: got by on other people's knowledge of those languages, while

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Speaker 1: he set himself to learning the ones that were spoken

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Speaker 1: more frequently locally like Greek and Turkish, and because of

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Speaker 1: the wide ranging backgrounds of the other people he met,

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Speaker 1: he often found himself conversing in four or five languages

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Speaker 1: in a given day. Soon he started looking for a

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Speaker 1: position that would give him more long term stability than

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Speaker 1: his private practice allowed. And this was his start in

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Speaker 1: a life of working for the government. And we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about that more, but first we're going to

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Speaker 1: pause for a little sponsor break. Still going by the

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Speaker 1: named Edward Schnitzer Mean Pasha's first government position was as

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Speaker 1: a quarantine officer in Antivari. This job was highly suitable

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Speaker 1: to his temperament. He was a fastidiously clean person, and

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Speaker 1: as quarantine officer, he was in charge of medical and

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Speaker 1: sanitary inspections of vessels that came into the port, along

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Speaker 1: with letters and parcels and other goods that came in

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Speaker 1: from other parts of the world. And then, obviously, if

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Speaker 1: someone contracted a contagious illness like cholera, he was the

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Speaker 1: one responsible for making sure they stayed in quarantine to

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Speaker 1: prevent the disease from spreading. He even got approval for

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Speaker 1: funding to build a quarantine house for this purpose. He

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Speaker 1: was also named Sanitary officer for the district of Antivari,

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Speaker 1: where he developed regulations to improve public health and sanitation,

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Speaker 1: like how the streets should be cleaned and how deep

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Speaker 1: the ditches should be. Even though he had the backing

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Speaker 1: of the police in enforcing these rules, he found this

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Speaker 1: to be an uphill battle, and his description quote the

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Speaker 1: usual Turkish las fair was a bit of an obstacle.

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Speaker 1: So the fact that he was so clean comes up

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Speaker 1: a lot, along with his fastidious appearance. Of the panel

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Speaker 1: where I learned a little bit about him was about gender,

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Speaker 1: and the portion that discussed I mean, Pasha was all

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Speaker 1: about the idea of masculinity and how a lot of

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Speaker 1: people were like he just doesn't quite fit in with

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Speaker 1: what we expect from a man, and part of it

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Speaker 1: was because he is so clean. So he really did

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Speaker 1: liked this work, though unsurprisingly, he continued to be the

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Speaker 1: quarantine and sanitary officers along with being the district's surgeon

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Speaker 1: until eighteen seventy and his government positions did mean that

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Speaker 1: he had less time for his private practice, and that

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Speaker 1: was work that he missed doing as his government work

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Speaker 1: took up more and more of his time. In eighteen

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Speaker 1: seventy one, he decided to make another move, and he

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Speaker 1: joined the service of Ismael Hockey Pasha, who was governor

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Speaker 1: of Northern Albania, as a medical officer, and it was

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Speaker 1: around this time that he was granted the title of Effendi.

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Speaker 1: He also adopted a Turkish name, which would morph into

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Speaker 1: memit Amine, which is the name he would end up

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Speaker 1: using for the rest of his life. This name change

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Speaker 1: was at first a largely practical move. As a port

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Speaker 1: Antivari saw a lot of visitors from all over the world.

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Speaker 1: They had various nationalities and faiths, and although he learned

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Speaker 1: local languages and adopted local dress there, he hadn't really

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Speaker 1: felt the need to change his name or his religion.

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Speaker 1: That was not so true in some other parts of Albania.

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Speaker 1: A lot of the places he was traveling with the

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Speaker 1: governor were a majority Muslim, and the Ottoman Empire itself

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Speaker 1: had aggressively tried to get the remaining Christian population of

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Speaker 1: Albania to convert to Islam. He thought he could do

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Speaker 1: better work and endure fewer prying questions as memit Amen

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Speaker 1: than as Edward Schnitzer. If he felt upset by this

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Speaker 1: and feeling like he should change his name, he did

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Speaker 1: not let on to any sort of dismay in his letters.

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Speaker 1: At the same time, though, he did take a lot

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Speaker 1: of care to reassure his mother and his sister that

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Speaker 1: his new name didn't mean that he wasn't German or

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Speaker 1: Christian anymore. He wrote to his sister in eighteen seventy

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Speaker 1: one telling her not to worry that he had just

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Speaker 1: changed his name, but that he had not, in his

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Speaker 1: own words, become a Mohammedan. The following February, he wrote

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Speaker 1: to his mother about how much he missed his family,

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Speaker 1: and he simultaneously described himself as quote completely naturalized and

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Speaker 1: called his Turkish name a disguise. While Amine was working

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Speaker 1: for the governor, and uprising swept through northern Albania along

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Speaker 1: with the rest of the Balkans. The Ottoman Empire had

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Speaker 1: ruled Albania for centuries, and those centuries had been marked

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Speaker 1: with ongoing cycles of uprising and revolts, and starting in

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Speaker 1: the sixteenth century, with the aggressive campaign to convert the

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Speaker 1: Christian population that we mentioned a moment ago in Albania

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Speaker 1: in particular, the Ottoman Empire's hold had been pretty tenuous.

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Speaker 1: Albania was far enough removed from the rest of the

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Speaker 1: Empire that it hadn't really shared all that much of

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Speaker 1: the bounty from the Ottoman Golden Age, and then, even

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Speaker 1: though it was just across the Adriatic Sea from Italy,

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Speaker 1: Turkish rule of Albania meant that it was pretty much

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Speaker 1: excluded from the Renaissance as well. So Albania felt doubly

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Speaker 1: cut off from a lot of the advancements that a

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Speaker 1: lot of its neighbors had been through, as well as

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Speaker 1: being stifled and oppressed by many aspects of Ottoman rule.

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Speaker 1: Into the nineteenth century, many other Balkan nations, including Greece,

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Speaker 1: Serbia and Bosnia, went through their own revolutions for independence

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Speaker 1: from the Empire. Albania became concerned that it might be

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Speaker 1: annexed by one of its neighbors, replacing Ottoman rule for

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Speaker 1: some other regime. That is all centuries I mean not,

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Speaker 1: I'm not exattera exaggerating centuries of complicated political, religious, and

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Speaker 1: social issues and history boiled down to a couple of sentences,

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Speaker 1: but in short. When Amine joined the governor's service in

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Speaker 1: eighteen seventy one, Albania was right on the cusp of

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Speaker 1: what's known as the Albanian National Awakening, which is a

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Speaker 1: series of revolts and nationalist uprisings that would ultimately lead

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Speaker 1: to declaring independence in nineteen twelve. In other words, when

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Speaker 1: Amine went to work for the governor, his employer was

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Speaker 1: part of the ruling class that was in the process

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Speaker 1: of being overthrown, So when the uprising moved through northern Albania,

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Speaker 1: the governor and his family were forced to flee from it.

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Speaker 1: In the wake of this unrest, hockey Pasha was recalled

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Speaker 1: to Constantinople, dismissed from his post as governor, and banished

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Speaker 1: back to his home of Trebizon on the Black Sea

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Speaker 1: in Turkey. Amine was entrusted with the famili's care. He

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Speaker 1: traveled to Constantinople and made arrangements for them to be

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Speaker 1: reunited with the former governor. Along after he had reunited

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Speaker 1: the governor with his family. A means life too kind

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Speaker 1: of an odd turn. His male hockey Pasha was much

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Speaker 1: older than I mean I mean described him as being

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Speaker 1: like a father figure, and meanwhile, the governor had a

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Speaker 1: much younger wife, with their relationship rumored not to be

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Speaker 1: particularly happy. So when Hockey Pasha died, his widow, their

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Speaker 1: children and a number of household servants and slaves were

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Speaker 1: all left in a means care. Madam Ismael had been

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Speaker 1: born in Transylvania, which was facing its own unrest, but

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Speaker 1: she spoke French, German and Italian, perhaps thinking she might

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Speaker 1: better be able to make a home in Western Europe.

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Speaker 1: Amine took her and the rest of the household, which

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Speaker 1: was a total of eleven people home with him for

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Speaker 1: a visit to his family in Nissa. It would not

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Speaker 1: have been appropriate for the two of them to be

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Speaker 1: traveling together unmarried, so Amine presented her as his wife,

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Speaker 1: but it seemed like she was hoping that he would

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Speaker 1: marry her for real. Amen, on the other hand, had

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Speaker 1: thought this was a pragmatic way to get her out

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Speaker 1: of Albania at like out of the Ottoman Empire. Not

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Speaker 1: only did he not want to marry her, he was

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Speaker 1: not really financially able to support such a large household, so,

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Speaker 1: leaving no word of what he was going to do,

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Speaker 1: he cut off his connections with the governor's family, his

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Speaker 1: own family, and everyone he knew in the Balkans, and

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Speaker 1: he left Nissa on September eighteen, eighteen seventy five. He

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Speaker 1: visited some old school friends, and then he vanished all

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Speaker 1: this quite understandably raised a lot of suspicion and rumors.

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Speaker 1: This is compounded by the fact that I mean, who

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Speaker 1: had always been a really regular correspondent with his family,

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Speaker 1: hadn't written to them for at least a year before

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Speaker 1: arriving in Nisa. He didn't write to them again for

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Speaker 1: many years after disappearing. Meanwhile, Hockey Pasha's widow and children

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Speaker 1: stayed with a means mother for a few weeks before

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Speaker 1: they left Germany as well. There's not really a lot

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Speaker 1: of detail about how exactly all of this drama unfolded

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Speaker 1: or what happened to the governor's family after that. People

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Speaker 1: who had access to Amin Pasha's letters and journals in

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Speaker 1: the decades after his death generally declined to reprint that part,

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Speaker 1: often with kind of a hand wavy you don't really

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Speaker 1: need to know about that aside, Yes, some of it

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Speaker 1: is like you probably have heard already, so I don't

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Speaker 1: need to put that part in the book. Uh. In

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Speaker 1: my imagination, he was like, man, I don't I did

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Speaker 1: not mean to get roped up into all this, and

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure what to do, so I'm just gonna

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Speaker 1: go away. Uh. Regardless, though, when he reappeared. It was

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Speaker 1: in Egypt, and we will talk some more about that

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Speaker 1: after another quick sponsor break. So having that east for

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Speaker 1: the moment, cut ties with his family and his prior

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Speaker 1: connections in Turkey and Albania. I mean, Pasha went to Egypt,

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Speaker 1: he kept working as a doctor and learning even more languages,

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Speaker 1: including Arabic. It also appears that at some point, in

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Speaker 1: spite of his prior assurances to his mother and his sister,

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Speaker 1: he did convert to Islam. For example, his journals of

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Speaker 1: his time in Africa include a whole long exchange with

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Speaker 1: a tribal leader who insisted that he had asked for

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Speaker 1: a Christian to negotiate with. He was disappointed that he

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Speaker 1: had instead been sent a mean who was a Muslim.

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Speaker 1: I think regardless, I mean, based on what I have

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Speaker 1: read of all of his journals and letters and stuff

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Speaker 1: like that, it does not seem like he thought or

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Speaker 1: talked about religion all that much. Uh So it's all

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Speaker 1: kind of a little cloudy, but that seems to be

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Speaker 1: where he ended up. In eighteen seventy six, Amen went

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Speaker 1: to work for General Charles Gordon, governor of Equatoria and

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Speaker 1: what's now South Dan Equatoria is still a region in

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Speaker 1: South Sudan covering the same basic territory, but at the

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Speaker 1: time it was its own province. Although he was brought

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Speaker 1: arm to Gordon's service to be a doctor, I mean

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Speaker 1: skill with languages, his diplomacy and his willingness to assimilate

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Speaker 1: with his surroundings meant that he was soon put to

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Speaker 1: work on diplomatic missions. Gordon was expanding the province along

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Speaker 1: the Upper Nile, establishing forts and ousting slave traders from

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Speaker 1: the region, so in addition to his medical work, I

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Speaker 1: mean essentially became an ambassador, learning even more languages, negotiating

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Speaker 1: with local leaders, and undertaking expeditions into neighboring territory. In

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Speaker 1: July of eight seventy eight, Charles Gordon was promoted to

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Speaker 1: Governor General of Egyptian Sudan, and I mean Pasha was

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Speaker 1: named to take his place as the governor of Equatoria.

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Speaker 1: A lot of past episodes on our show that have

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Speaker 1: talked about colonial governments and administrators have generally fallen on

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Speaker 1: this sort of spectrum between blunderingly ham fisted and flagrantly

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Speaker 1: exploitive and inhumane. But I mean Pasha didn't really fit

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Speaker 1: on that spectrum. In all the accounts that we have,

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Speaker 1: he seemed to approach his work with fairness and compassion.

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Speaker 1: I kind of hate that we have to note exception.

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Speaker 1: He was so weird because of how thoughtful and level

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Speaker 1: headed he was. Yeah. I I sent a text to

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Speaker 1: a dear friend of mine who was a world history teacher,

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Speaker 1: and said, have you heard about Eman Pasha? And she

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Speaker 1: said no, And I said, so he was this guy

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Speaker 1: who worked for the Ottoman Empire. He was the governor

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Speaker 1: of Equatoria, and apparently he was really nice and thoughtful,

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Speaker 1: and she was like, that is bizarre. So anyway, one

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Speaker 1: of his biggest priorities, which had also been true of

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Speaker 1: Charles Gordon, was to stop the slave trade from operating

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Speaker 1: in the province. So slavery existed in a variety of

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Speaker 1: forms and a lot of Africa long before the trans

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Speaker 1: atlantic slave trade was a stabbedsh but existing forms of

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Speaker 1: slavery in Africa were generally a lot different from chattel

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Speaker 1: slavery as part of the trans atlantic trade. His existing

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Speaker 1: forms of enslavement were overall on a much smaller scale.

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Speaker 1: They often, but not always, involved prisoners of war or

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Speaker 1: people who were convicted of crimes, and generally people were

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Speaker 1: treated more like dependence than property. We are not at

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Speaker 1: all suggesting that it is okay to enslave people, but

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Speaker 1: we just want to make it clear that chattel slavery

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Speaker 1: was much different and in many ways much worse, and

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Speaker 1: the slave trade had huge ramifications all across Africa. Demand

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Speaker 1: for enslaved Africans led to colossal population laws and increased

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Speaker 1: warfare as opposing African nations attempted to capture more prisoners

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Speaker 1: of war to sell. So as a result, about twelve

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Speaker 1: million people from Central and Western Africa were sold into

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Speaker 1: slavery between the fifteenth and the nineteenth centuries. To add

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Speaker 1: to all of that, payment in some cases included weapons,

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Speaker 1: which led to an escalating cycle of violence as African

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Speaker 1: nations went to war with their neighbors using the weapons

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Speaker 1: that they had gotten as payment for the people they

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Speaker 1: had previously sold. These are really just examples. This whole

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Speaker 1: slave trade had tremendous and often devastating effects that reverberated

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Speaker 1: across a lot of the continent, even in areas that

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Speaker 1: weren't directly involved in any of it. By the time

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Speaker 1: Amen came to Equatoria, the Transatlantic slave trade had largely

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Speaker 1: been abolished. However, Brazil continued to illicitly import enslaved people

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Speaker 1: from Africa until eighteen eighty eight. Even though the practice

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Speaker 1: had been officially banned. Slavery was also still legal and

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Speaker 1: practiced in much of the Ottoman Empire, and people were

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Speaker 1: still being captured in Central Africa and sold through the

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Speaker 1: trans Saharan and East African slave trades. So even though

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Speaker 1: it seems like this timeline is a little later than

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Speaker 1: slavery was abolished in a lot of the America, there

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Speaker 1: were still a lot of people who were being captured

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Speaker 1: and sold from this part of Africa. So both Gordon

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Speaker 1: and Amine worked to stop slavers from capturing people within

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Speaker 1: the province of Equatoria, and they also worked to free

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Speaker 1: people who had been captured and returned them to their families.

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Speaker 1: Their efforts were really successful. They did put an end

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Speaker 1: to the practice within Equatoria, but unfortunately that just means

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Speaker 1: that slavers instead turned their attention to places outside the province,

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Speaker 1: like it wasn't something that they could stop in all

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Speaker 1: of Africa. An introduction to an addition of his Letters

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Speaker 1: and Journals written by Dr RW Falcon summed up his

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Speaker 1: work this way. Quote. He had added large districts to

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Speaker 1: his province, not by the use of the sword, but

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Speaker 1: by personal negotiation with native chiefs. To all this must

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Speaker 1: be added the cultivation of cotton, of indigo, of coffee

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Speaker 1: and rice. The establishment of a regular weekly post through

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Speaker 1: his dominions, the rebuilding of nearly all his stations that can,

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Speaker 1: destruction of better and more permanent roads, the introduction of

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Speaker 1: camels and the transport of goods by oxen. And last,

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Speaker 1: but not least, he was able in that year to

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Speaker 1: show a net profit of eight thousand pounds, whereas on

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Speaker 1: his taking up the reins of government there was a

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Speaker 1: deficit of thirty two thousand pounds per annum. Well, our

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Speaker 1: archive is also full of stories of sort of imperial

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Speaker 1: administrators who, in one way or another, used their positions

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Speaker 1: to increase their personal wealth. I mean, Pasha scrupulously documented

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Speaker 1: every gift he received, valued it, and then charged it

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Speaker 1: to his personal account. He was fastidious in every single way.

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Speaker 1: He's one of those people that I much admired, but

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Speaker 1: I think if he met me, he would just hate me.

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Speaker 1: He also developed the province's military, which was recruited from

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Speaker 1: the local population. In a book called The Truth About

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Speaker 1: I Mean Pasha, published in the nineteenth century, his approach

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Speaker 1: was described this way quote I mean inspected the books

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Speaker 1: at the store depots, had uniforms served out to the troops,

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Speaker 1: and made inquiries as to the state of affairs, by

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Speaker 1: asking each one whether he had any reason to be dissatisfied.

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Speaker 1: In this way he heard complaints and grievances, which he

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Speaker 1: inquired into and redressed when necessary. He reviewed the troops,

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Speaker 1: admonished them to serve the government faithfully and obediently, promoted

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Speaker 1: deserving soldiers who as to encourage them and so spur

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Speaker 1: the others on to follow their example. In a word,

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Speaker 1: he interested himself with wonderful zeal and fatherly care in

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Speaker 1: the most trifling matters, with the object of fostering content

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Speaker 1: and maintaining order among the troops and the inhabitants, just

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Speaker 1: in case people were confused. Bay is another one of

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Speaker 1: the titles that he had before he was given the

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Speaker 1: title of Pasha. So throughout his time as governor of Equatoria,

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Speaker 1: he also continued his work as a naturalist, making extensive

431
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 1: studies of Central Africa's flora and fauna as well as

432
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 1: its whether. He made anthropological studies of the people's living

433
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 1: there and documented numerous languages. He sent regular reports of

434
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: his findings, along with specimens, to European museums and journals,

435
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 1: as described in his obituary in the Geographical Journal in

436
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 1: eight nineties three quote of the value of his geographical

437
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 1: and scientific work, there can be no doubt every portion

438
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 1: of the wide region entrusted to his care became known

439
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,919
Speaker 1: to him by personal observation, and his descriptions of the

440
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 1: countries through which he passed, and the care with which

441
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: he mapped his roots, may serve as patterns to all

442
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 1: engaged in the exploration of Equatorial Africa. His collections to

443
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 1: have enriched the museums of England and of his native country,

444
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 1: and the esteem in which a Mean is held by

445
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 1: naturalists is quite as great as that entertained for him

446
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: by geographers. And according to a letter from German explorer Dr.

447
00:26:55,920 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: Vilhelm Younger, he did it all with quote almost unctilious

448
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:05,640
Speaker 1: neatness and great care in his dress. While a Mean

449
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 1: does seem to have approached his work in Equatoria with

450
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,239
Speaker 1: compassion and thoughtfulness, and a lot of dedicated organization and

451
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: scrupulous note taking. We don't want to give the impression

452
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: that he was perfect. Although he took great care to

453
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,119
Speaker 1: understand the people and customs around him, he was also

454
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: definitely influenced by the underlying idea of white supremacy. Additionally,

455
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 1: the written records we have of his time in Equatoria

456
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,120
Speaker 1: we're all written by people from Europe, not from Africa,

457
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: so we don't have a lot of firsthand detail about

458
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 1: how the people of Sudan felt about all of this.

459
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: And although it's easy and for a lot of us

460
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 1: even instinctive to think of things like roads and crops

461
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 1: and a cash flow positive administrative state as improvements, these

462
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 1: things are not automatically better. The fact that I mean

463
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: Pasha himself seems to have been doing a pretty good

464
00:27:54,600 --> 00:28:00,239
Speaker 1: job like doesn't erase the many issues associated with with

465
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 1: colonialism and giant empires governing people that aren't actually connected

466
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 1: to them. Yeah, he was doing a really good job

467
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: of administering in a place that never asked Europeans to

468
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 1: come and a minister. Yeah. Well, and even though at

469
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,640
Speaker 1: this point we're going to get into this morning part two,

470
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: Sudan was under the administration of Egypt, which is it's

471
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,919
Speaker 1: it's near neighbor, but still like the Egypt was a

472
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,160
Speaker 1: vastly different place from Sudan, and people in Sudan did

473
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 1: not feel particularly connected to the government in Egypt, didn't

474
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 1: feel particularly represented by the people of Egypt or the

475
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 1: people that were allegedly representing their interests in Egypt. Like,

476
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: it was a whole complicated situation. So, I mean, Passia

477
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 1: seems to have been a pretty stand up guy. Colonialism, uh,

478
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: imperial governance of distant places, like, all these things still

479
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 1: have problems, And I mean, Passia's time as governor of

480
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 1: Equatoria actually did not end happily, and that is exactly

481
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 1: what we're going to talk about no time when we

482
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 1: do part two of this episode. In the meantime, Tracy, Yeah,

483
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,479
Speaker 1: what you got in the way of listener mail? I

484
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: have some listener mail that is from Jessica. It is

485
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: on our episode about Mamie Till Mobley, and we've gotten

486
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 1: a lot of really lovely, thoughtful emails about that episode.

487
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: So thank you to everyone who has written in about it.

488
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 1: And Jessica says, Hi, Holly and Tracy or Tracy and Holly,

489
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: you choose the order. It's like a choose your own adventure. Anyway,

490
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 1: I wanted to write a thank you for your podcast

491
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: on Mamie Till Mobley. The Emmett Tell Story is one

492
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: of my pet subjects that I love to hear about.

493
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 1: It sounds strange, I know, but let me explain. I

494
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: taught junior high English for a good number of years

495
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: before quote retiring to stay home with my son. Thanks

496
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 1: to some of my college professors, I had done an

497
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 1: emphasis in African American literature and had spent some time

498
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: with a professor slash author who wrote both the historical

499
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 1: fiction and a non fiction book about Emmett Till geared

500
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 1: toward junior high age readers as a white girl who

501
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: grew up in an area of the country that until

502
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: very recently had little to no diversity. It wasn't until

503
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: I hit college and took some of these courses that

504
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 1: the idea of racism became real to me. It was

505
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: something I read about in textbooks, but the experiences, fortitude,

506
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: and trials of those who lived through it were beyond

507
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: my scope to that point. This is why I loved

508
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: teaching the Emmett Tell Story to my junior high kids.

509
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: Like me. Most of them hadn't had much experience with

510
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 1: the kinds of tensions and terrors that they read about

511
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: in their history books. By learning about Emmett, a kid

512
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 1: their age, and both seeing and hearing what happened to him,

513
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 1: thanks to Mamie's insistence that those pictures be published, I

514
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: watched the lightbulb turn on for many of these kids. Suddenly, racism, bigotry, lynching,

515
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: discrimination all became real because it happened to someone just

516
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: like them. As we went through the trial together, some

517
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 1: of them nearly sprang from their chairs at the injustices

518
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: that were being flaunted around that courtroom. Many of them

519
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 1: would stay after class to discuss further the now reel

520
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 1: for them details leading up to the Civil rights movement.

521
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 1: I often taught this in conjunction with discussions in their

522
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 1: history classes of Rosa Parks. One of my favorite quotes

523
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: to tie to the two classes together comes from her quote,

524
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 1: I thought about Emmett till and I could not go back.

525
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 1: My legs and feet were not hurting that as a stereotype,

526
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: I paid the same fare as others, and I felt violated.

527
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 1: I was not going back. At the end of any unit,

528
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: we always had the discussion that started with the question, now,

529
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,239
Speaker 1: what now they had? Now that they had read this

530
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: piece with me and they had learned what they had,

531
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: what were they going to do about it? The discussion

532
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 1: following this unit was always my favorite. I could see

533
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: the fire in the eyes of these kids, who are

534
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: all now adults, who have the potential to change the world,

535
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: and I will forever be grateful that I got to

536
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: see them feel and know that they have the responsibility

537
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: to change the world for the better. This is why

538
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 1: I went into teaching English. My book nerds side was satiated,

539
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: but I could make what they read real with context,

540
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: and could help them see how the history they had

541
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 1: learned could apply to them through the characters we met

542
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 1: in our books. Uh anyway, sorry ramble, but I was

543
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 1: thrilled to see that Mami was a topic today. As

544
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: we told the story, as it does every time I

545
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: hear it, my heart hurt for her and my gut

546
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: twisted as the events unfolded. I especially appreciated to go

547
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: look at her fortitude and determination. As often the focus

548
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 1: is on Emmett, which is not undo, but she was

549
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 1: an amazing woman who allowed and pushed for his story

550
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: to be one that changed the world. Thanks for the

551
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: wonderful podcast that helps me feel excited and smart as

552
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: I clean toilets and do laundry and read Curious George

553
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 1: for the thousandth time. And then she goes on to

554
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: say that after every episode, her son asks Um where

555
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 1: she gets her episodes, because we always talk about where

556
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: to get things after the end of every show. Thank

557
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 1: you so much, Jessica. I wanted to read this letter

558
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: for a couple of reasons. Wanted is such a touching letter, Um,

559
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: and the other is uh ROSA Parks reflection on Emmett

560
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 1: Till comes up a lot in discussions of the civil

561
00:32:58,000 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: rights movement, and it is not a thing that made

562
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 1: it in that ticular episodes. I wanted to make sure

563
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: that we had a chance to bring it up now.

564
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 1: So thank you again, Jessica, and thank you also to

565
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: all the various people who have sent us such wonderful,

566
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 1: thoughtful letters about that particular episode. If you would like

567
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: to write to us about this or any other podcast

568
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 1: or history podcasts that how Stuff Works dot com. We're

569
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 1: also on Facebook at facebook dot com slash miss in

570
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: History and on Twitter at miss in History, our tumbler

571
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: and our pinterests and our Instagram are all also missed

572
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 1: in History. If you come to our website at miss

573
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 1: in history dot com, you will find show notes for

574
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 1: all the episodes Holly and I have ever worked on

575
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 1: a searchable archive of every episode ever. Lots of other

576
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 1: cool stuff, so you can do all that and a

577
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: whole lot more at missed in history dot com. For

578
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: more on this at thousands of other topics. Is it,

579
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: how stop works dot com