Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I am Akshatrati this week Climate lessons
Speaker 1: from London. More than half of all humans live in cities,
Speaker 1: and that means by definition, cities are a climate problem
Speaker 1: because when extreme weather hits cities, it hurts a disproportionate
Speaker 1: number of people. Recall what Hurricane Sandy did to New
Speaker 1: York in twenty twelve or the epic floods in Karachi
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two. But cities can also be climate solutions.
Speaker 1: Cheaper public transport, more energy efficient homes, tenser living. Cities
Speaker 1: can make lower carbon lifestyles more affordable. When Sadi Khan
Speaker 1: was elected as London mayor, he pledged to be the
Speaker 1: greenest ever. Now in his third term, as he delivered
Speaker 1: on his ambition, what lessons does he have for other
Speaker 1: cities looking to cut emissions and prepare for extreme weather?
Speaker 1: And as a prominent figure in the UK's Labor Party,
Speaker 1: how does he see the future of his party and
Speaker 1: his country as the politics of climate becomes more contentious.
Speaker 1: I last met Sadi Khan in Rio de Shinio ahead
Speaker 1: of the UN Climate Summit COP thirty. We were attending
Speaker 1: a meeting of the world's mayors organized by C forty,
Speaker 1: a group which partners with Bloomberg Philanthropies and Khant co chairs.
Speaker 1: This conversation took place somewhere more familiar, the city of London.
Speaker 1: In your twenty sixteen acceptance speech, you said you had
Speaker 1: a burning ambition for Londoners. You said you wanted them
Speaker 1: to have decent and affordable homes, a comfortable, affordable commute,
Speaker 1: more jobs with better pay, cleaner air, and opportunities that
Speaker 1: will fulfill their potential. Ten years on, do you think
Speaker 1: you've fulfill that ambition?
Speaker 2: Well, it's great to join you on the Bloomberg podcast.
Speaker 2: So I'm really proud of our achievements over the last
Speaker 2: ten years. It's not a mession accomplished instead of working progress.
Speaker 2: What I've learned over the last ten years is you
Speaker 2: can't stand stall. You've got to move forward. You've got
Speaker 2: to be ambitious for your city and for its residents,
Speaker 2: but also recognize the achievements you've made. The achievements you've
Speaker 2: made is creating the bank to allow Londoners to be
Speaker 2: asked for their vote again to go forward. I'm really proud,
Speaker 2: whether it's the numbers of votable Hundrey built, whether it's
Speaker 2: the free school mills are providing, whether it's the cleaner
Speaker 2: air we've provided, whether it's the fares we've frozen, whether
Speaker 2: it's the youth clubs we've had reopened, whether it's the
Speaker 2: police we've invested in, whether it's the jobs we've help
Speaker 2: the private sector create, whether it's standing up for our values.
Speaker 2: I'm really proud of the years, but there is so
Speaker 2: much to do for our city and for its residents
Speaker 2: to have their potential fulfilled.
Speaker 1: So I want to touch on all those aspects one
Speaker 1: by one. Let's start with the Ultra Low Emissions Zone,
Speaker 1: this charge that polluting cars have to pay to come
Speaker 1: into London. It's been one of your policies that has
Speaker 1: allowed for cleaner air, but it's also something that opposition
Speaker 1: politicians have caught onto. Despite all the work that you've
Speaker 1: done on educating people about why this is beneficial, why
Speaker 1: do you think they continue to succeed in opposing this policy.
Speaker 2: Well, first, in my own experience of air pollution was
Speaker 2: quite recent. Actually in twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, I was
Speaker 2: suffering ill health, difficulty breathing and I was diagnosed with
Speaker 2: saying I did I'd never just heard before called adult
Speaker 2: onset asthma, and I did some research into how I
Speaker 2: got this aspect. Because I was recently fit around the
Speaker 2: marathon healthy, I didn't realize that there are these things
Speaker 2: in the you can't see it, called particular matter, nitro
Speaker 2: and oxide, nitron dioxide. It can make you sick, It
Speaker 2: can lead to adults having asthma. It can lead to
Speaker 2: a diagnosis of dementia, heart disease and cancer premature death.
Speaker 2: But children breathing in this stuff can get stunted lungs forever.
Speaker 2: So when I first did what I in my first
Speaker 2: year is best educate Londons like as you said about
Speaker 2: air pollution. It's unlike the smog in the fifties, you
Speaker 2: can't see it right, And so we installed across our
Speaker 2: city with the support of Bloomberg Philanthropies, air quality monitors
Speaker 2: so we could let Londoners know how good or bad
Speaker 2: the air was. And is it a really interesting comparison.
Speaker 2: If you some from hayfever, you're told what the pollen
Speaker 2: company is, so you can take action to avert yourself
Speaker 2: from the pollen, but nobody tells you about air pollution.
Speaker 2: And by educating Londoners about how bad things were we
Speaker 2: got permission to begin the first clean AI zone in London.
Speaker 2: We began in the center of our city and after
Speaker 2: year we saw a remarkable progress in reductions in nitron dioxide, nitronoxide,
Speaker 2: particular matter. We then expanded it to in a London
Speaker 2: think of London in three concentric circles, center in an
Speaker 2: outer and then we eventually went to outer London. So
Speaker 2: the results are remarkable, biggest clean air zone in the world,
Speaker 2: remarkable progress and reducing air pollutions. Also, by the way,
Speaker 2: added bonus reduced carbon emissions equivalent to three million flights
Speaker 2: from London to New York. But your spot on, there's
Speaker 2: been a huge amount of opposition coming from I think
Speaker 2: a vocal minority, well funded by vested interest, pumping a
Speaker 2: lot of money behind their campaign. But I'm quite clear
Speaker 2: in terms of how I decide upon policy. Two things
Speaker 2: I use. One are my values. I believe in social
Speaker 2: justice and racial justice and equality, but also the evidence,
Speaker 2: the evidences air pollution is bad, the evidences the ultra
Speaker 2: emission zone works. And so I'm willing to have a
Speaker 2: fight when it comes to things that are important, and
Speaker 2: this is one fight I'm really pleased we had because
Speaker 2: now people look back at the cleaner zone, the utulomission
Speaker 2: zone and say it's so brilliant, We're going to do
Speaker 2: the same. Side speech college in Germany, colleagues in Italy,
Speaker 2: colleagues in the USA. Who'll replicate in our policies?
Speaker 1: Why has it not been replicated in other major cities.
Speaker 1: It's been around in London for a long time.
Speaker 2: Now it's a tough fart and you've got to win it.
Speaker 2: And I think you will see winds being done. So
Speaker 2: we brought in our congestion charge in two thousand and three,
Speaker 2: and I'm really pleased that New York brought in last year.
Speaker 2: Remember what the predictions were, the skies would fall in,
Speaker 2: businesses would go bust, they'd be a right in New
Speaker 2: Jersey and in New York. None of that materialized. Additional
Speaker 2: revenues which can be used to improve public transport under
Speaker 2: the great new Mayor of New York. Well, similarly, I
Speaker 2: think you're seeing across the globe brave mayors wanting to
Speaker 2: tackle this issue of air pollution, and some are using
Speaker 2: cleaner zones. Whether it's Milan, whether it's Bristol, whether it's Birmingham,
Speaker 2: other cities across the globe.
Speaker 1: You have now reduced a discount on electric cars on
Speaker 1: the congestion charge. You I now saying that this is
Speaker 1: the signal you want to send to Londoners that don't
Speaker 1: adopt electric cars.
Speaker 2: It's okay, yeah, I me explaining the policy behind this.
Speaker 2: It's a really important issue you've raised, which is the carrot.
Speaker 2: So the original policy that we had in two thousand
Speaker 2: and three, the congestion charge, was to reduce congestion in
Speaker 2: the heart of our city, the center of our city,
Speaker 2: five boroughs in the higher city, and it led to
Speaker 2: a thirty percent reduction in cars. It's worked. What I
Speaker 2: sought to do in twenty eighteen was to give an
Speaker 2: incentive for people, if they need to drive, to go
Speaker 2: from an internal combustion engine to an electric car. So
Speaker 2: there was a discount. In fact, if you had an
Speaker 2: electric vehicle, van car so forth, you paid nothing to
Speaker 2: come to the center of our city. And it's worked.
Speaker 2: And so we've gone from having roughly speaking, twenty thousand
Speaker 2: electric vehicles now that one hundred and twenty thousand electric
Speaker 2: vehicles coming into the heart of our city twenty percent
Speaker 2: of vehicles. So we've got the ultracal emission zone that
Speaker 2: leads to cleaner air. We've now got a problem of congestion,
Speaker 2: and if we're not careful, you'd have the situation where
Speaker 2: there'll be congestion. I'll beat with electric vehicles. So what
Speaker 2: I've done is because I want to still incentivize the
Speaker 2: period from internal combustion engine to electric. There's still a
Speaker 2: discount if you have an electric vehicle or a car
Speaker 2: or a van, to pay less than you would if
Speaker 2: it was an internal combustion engine. But you need to
Speaker 2: discourage people driving and if they're alternatives. So what we've
Speaker 2: done is improve public transport, and we've got a great
Speaker 2: new Lizbeth Line going through the heart of our city,
Speaker 2: great tube system. We've increased fivefold the amount of safe
Speaker 2: cycling into our city. We've widened pavements like frozen fairs.
Speaker 2: So the idea is to give you alternative where it's
Speaker 2: possible instead of the car, but where you have to
Speaker 2: drive a car, if you drive an electric car, you're
Speaker 2: get a discount.
Speaker 1: So on buses, your father came from Pakistan to London.
Speaker 1: He was working as a bus driver for much of
Speaker 1: his life and it is the most affordable public transport option.
Speaker 1: For people your frozen fares to keep it more affordable.
Speaker 1: But buses are also polluting, and you said now they're
Speaker 1: an increasing number of electric buses, but out of the
Speaker 1: total of nine thousand buses in London, only about two
Speaker 1: thy five hundred are electric. You have a goal to
Speaker 1: get to all buses being zero carbon by twenty thirty.
Speaker 2: Are you on track? Well, the second stage is the
Speaker 2: first year. My father came from Pakistan, my grandparents from
Speaker 2: India to Pakistan. So grandparents and migrants from Indio to Pakistan,
Speaker 2: my parents and migrants from Bikistan to London. I'm going
Speaker 2: nowhere born and raised in South London. I'm born here, raised,
Speaker 2: He'll probably die in South for London. And so you're right,
Speaker 2: buses are personal to me. Actually we've done some research.
Speaker 2: I knew this anyway, but the poorest London that's tend
Speaker 2: to use buses. So you've got roughly speaking, five million
Speaker 2: journeys and buses a day in London, four million journeys
Speaker 2: on the underground in London, you've got the Elizabeth Line,
Speaker 2: the Doctor's Light Railway, the overground and the tram and
Speaker 2: so forth, and bikes and so we've tried to make
Speaker 2: buses affordable. A number of things we've done to make
Speaker 2: up affordable. So we've introduced what's called hopperfair, so that's
Speaker 2: unlimited bus travel in one hour. Why is that important
Speaker 2: because if you have an outerline, then less good tubes
Speaker 2: you both have to change to get to and from
Speaker 2: at work. We've also frozen for seven years buses and
Speaker 2: so you know, perversely the most expensive city in the country,
Speaker 2: the cubest bus fairs really important. And you're right, we've
Speaker 2: moved from having just thirty electric buses when I was
Speaker 2: first elected, and I got three thousand electric buses, with
Speaker 2: a target to get to all of our buses eighty
Speaker 2: seven hundred electric by the end of this decade. Well
Speaker 2: in progress. To get in there, we've had challenges because
Speaker 2: some of the bus companies can't manufacture at speed the
Speaker 2: buses we need. All of our buses though our ultra
Speaker 2: emission compliant you disc compliant. Now you raise a really
Speaker 2: good point about actually buses were causing the pollution. So
Speaker 2: when I first became I sort of looked at our city.
Speaker 2: I wanted to know which parts of our city had
Speaker 2: the worst air pollution, and you're right, they were by
Speaker 2: busy roads predominantly by diesel lorries, hategvs. Heavy goods vehicle
Speaker 2: and diesel buses. And we were still buying diesel buses
Speaker 2: when I became mayor. The previous mayor guy called Boris Johnson,
Speaker 2: I was still buying these diesel buses. So I stopped
Speaker 2: at the purchase of fending you diesel buses. Because we
Speaker 2: couldn't overnight change them to electric. We retrofitted the diesel
Speaker 2: buses to make sure they were cleaner up buses. We
Speaker 2: also made sure in those parts of our city where
Speaker 2: there was the worst air pollution, we got rid of
Speaker 2: these diesel buses and they got the electric first. It
Speaker 2: was a priority. We had to make sure they got
Speaker 2: the cleaner buses at first. And the great news is
Speaker 2: now is not just all of our buses are you
Speaker 2: less compliant, But we've got the biggest number of electric
Speaker 2: buses of any city in Europe, and we'll get to
Speaker 2: all of them being electric by the end of this decade.
Speaker 1: But these frozen bus fares, that you've frozen them for
Speaker 1: seven years, how long can you keep them frozen? Given
Speaker 1: where fuel prices are right now? But also we expect
Speaker 1: these fuel prices despite where the war goes to be
Speaker 1: high for at least the next twenty four months.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really good question. So at the moment, I've
Speaker 2: always sought to be direct and honest with Londoners. That's
Speaker 2: the best way to operate your politician, you know. And
Speaker 2: so the promise I made to London is when I
Speaker 2: set my budget for this year is at the moment,
Speaker 2: I've only got the money to freeze fares until the
Speaker 2: end of July. We're recording this podcast in April, and
Speaker 2: I've been straight with Londoners, and I'll after wait and
Speaker 2: see as we approach July if I can afford to
Speaker 2: freeze it for the rest of this year. But it's difficult.
Speaker 2: You're spot on because not just a fuel prices going up,
Speaker 2: but we subsidize our buses. Unlike the Underground, the Tube
Speaker 2: or the Elizabeth Line, it doesn't wash its face. So
Speaker 2: I've got to cross subsidize. Using other revenue streams to
Speaker 2: subsidize the buses is important. Why because as you allude to,
Speaker 2: we've got a cost of living crisis, and so you know,
Speaker 2: we're going to carry on with the hopper. But as
Speaker 2: soon as I can, I'll be you know, being straight
Speaker 2: with Londoners about what I can do with buses. But
Speaker 2: I'm cognizant about if you get two fine in terms
Speaker 2: of fears going up, people stop using them. That's good
Speaker 2: for nobody.
Speaker 1: You mentioned New York's mayor Mom, Danny, Well, he wants
Speaker 1: to make buses free. What's your advice to him?
Speaker 2: Listen, So I'm not going to give Zorra our advices.
Speaker 2: He does not need any advice from me. I'm really
Speaker 2: excited this energy Zorn is brought to the great city
Speaker 2: of New York, the second greatest city in the world.
Speaker 2: But what he's doing is this is really important. And
Speaker 2: I say this to colleagues here Park for a second.
Speaker 2: This man is charismatic, young and good luck and I
Speaker 2: hate him. Park the great social media, the great great comms.
Speaker 2: He's bringing forward policies that are addressing the needs and
Speaker 2: aspirations of New Yorkers. We can agree to disagree with
Speaker 2: the details, but it's not just vibe and people mistake
Speaker 2: the lessons of Zorn's rise. Bibe is one part of
Speaker 2: the success story, but he's actually talking about issues that
Speaker 2: matter to his citizens, as indeed we try and do
Speaker 2: in London, and where I think he's right, is recognizing
Speaker 2: that I suspect just like in London, the poorest New
Speaker 2: Yorkers use buses and if you're going to encourage people
Speaker 2: to leave their car at home, they need alternatives. And
Speaker 2: I wish him well.
Speaker 1: A lot of Londoners live in apartment blocks. I live
Speaker 1: in an apartment block. I own my property, but a
Speaker 1: lot of people rent properties and it can be very
Speaker 1: hard to try and get installation of electric car chargers
Speaker 1: or solar panels on your rooftop, or heat pumps. What
Speaker 1: can you do to make that easier?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we are as a global city. Like many
Speaker 2: global cities, populations that rent their transient often tall buildings
Speaker 2: because of the need for high density, and so you
Speaker 2: look at the space to either have a drive to
Speaker 2: charge your vehicle. You've not got the ability to install
Speaker 2: a heat pump for this reasons, or the permission to
Speaker 2: install solar panels. So we're doing lots of things to
Speaker 2: address that. Firstly, we have in London things called lampposts
Speaker 2: lighting on our streets, so we're installing in those light
Speaker 2: street lights electric charging points. But also we're using the
Speaker 2: opportunity to replicate the success of petrol stations type electric
Speaker 2: stations for those who want to charge vehicles. News we
Speaker 2: have now gone from zero basically to twenty eight thousand
Speaker 2: electric charging points in London, a third of the country's
Speaker 2: charging points in London. We've also got a number of
Speaker 2: rapid charging points for commercial drivers across London, really really important.
Speaker 2: So that's the start of this story. In relation to
Speaker 2: heat pumps and the solar panels we're working with, we've
Speaker 2: got thirty two borrows in London. New York's got five,
Speaker 2: We've got thirty two and they're in charge of municipal
Speaker 2: housing and so we're working with them to install solar
Speaker 2: panels on their roofs, to install heat bubbs in their buildings.
Speaker 2: We've got grid energy supporting district energy. We're using in
Speaker 2: one of our councilors in North London the waste heat
Speaker 2: from our tubes to provide grid energy for the estate.
Speaker 2: But if we're going to get to zero, we've got
Speaker 2: to think about the challenge you've posed, which is how
Speaker 2: do we support those in flats apartments to be energy efiicient.
Speaker 2: That could be better insulation, that could mean energy from renewables,
Speaker 2: that could mean when it comes to new buildings. We're
Speaker 2: making sure our new buildings are fit for the twenty
Speaker 2: first century. Simple things like bigger windows that open, you know,
Speaker 2: having systems of energy supply that measure bills are smaller
Speaker 2: in the winter, but you have the ability to have
Speaker 2: cooler rooms in the winter in the summer, big apart,
Speaker 2: which is really important. So the new buildings are really
Speaker 2: confident with. But you're right, retro fitch in the older
Speaker 2: buildings is a challenge, but I'm confident we'll get there.
Speaker 2: And actually this government has announced really good plans in
Speaker 2: relation to local power plans and Biller Bud's got this
Speaker 2: great energy policy where you can use energy from the
Speaker 2: communities combination of solar wind in London we've got title
Speaker 2: and nuclear outside. So the community energy will be a
Speaker 2: real important way of supporting people like you who are
Speaker 2: in apartment blocks flats.
Speaker 1: But you also have a more ambitious climate plan than
Speaker 1: the national government. Does you want London to hit net
Speaker 1: zero by twenty thirty?
Speaker 2: Are you on track? So it's a great poem by branding.
Speaker 2: You know, I think I think one's grass should exceed
Speaker 2: one's reach and on ab ambitious at the moment, if
Speaker 2: you did a curve and a graph. We're not on
Speaker 2: target to meet zero by twenty thirty. We think well,
Speaker 2: as far as the things I'm responsible for, we are
Speaker 2: you know, so police, fire service, public transport. We're making
Speaker 2: good progress. We've managed to reduce emissions since i've been
Speaker 2: mare borround twenty eight percent since you know, when you
Speaker 2: look at the you know, from nineteen ninety it's time
Speaker 2: by forty four percent. At the moment, our trajectory is
Speaker 2: not to get to net zero by twenty thirty, although
Speaker 2: we'll get close with the right sport from the government
Speaker 2: and it starts coming. We may get there in terms
Speaker 2: of the grid, in terms of renewables, in terms of
Speaker 2: these local power plans, in terms of you mentioned buses,
Speaker 2: but also we've got to think about other forms of
Speaker 2: emissions that comes. They come from you know, our tubes,
Speaker 2: our trains and so forth. So working incredibly hard in
Speaker 2: terms of what we can do, but I think you
Speaker 2: should be ambitious. What I see my experience of national
Speaker 2: prime ministers and presidents is they set targets for thirty
Speaker 2: years time, you know, get TONTU by twenty fifty or
Speaker 2: twenty sixty five. Let's be frank. Other than you and me.
Speaker 2: They are going to be here, right and so we've
Speaker 2: got to have realistic targets. And that's the joy of
Speaker 2: being a mayor. You're close to your people and so
Speaker 2: you have realistic targets. And so you know, we've got
Speaker 2: plans for the short term and the medium term, and
Speaker 2: I think we'll get there.
Speaker 1: Well. One reason you're passionate about climate change is because
Speaker 1: of your own experience, which you write about in the Brook,
Speaker 1: but also because you see cities as climate solution. You
Speaker 1: want these places to grow. In London, there's a need
Speaker 1: for lots and lots of housing. In the most recent
Speaker 1: study from the Center for Policy Studies, they found that
Speaker 1: built only about four thousand homes when the target was
Speaker 1: eighty eight thousand. What are you doing to speed?
Speaker 2: So we're seeing this phenomenon across the globe called urbanization.
Speaker 2: More and more people for reasons we can understand, to
Speaker 2: move into cities, big, big cities and so forth. And
Speaker 2: actually that's a good thing as long as you plan
Speaker 2: for it. So growth per se is not a problem.
Speaker 2: We have to plan for that growth. And all the
Speaker 2: major cities across the world that are successful have this
Speaker 2: challenge of affordable housing. By that there are some cities
Speaker 2: where population is going down. That's not a good thing.
Speaker 2: And we can talk about you know, signs of ill
Speaker 2: health for good health in terms of the pulse of
Speaker 2: the city. And so we have got a house of
Speaker 2: crisis in London. I think that's the biggest crisis we
Speaker 2: face as a city structurally, not just in terms of
Speaker 2: not enough housing. We're not enough affordable housing. We've got
Speaker 2: in London a population circle ten million, two point seven million.
Speaker 2: Those are living in rents accommodation. It's unaffordable. Quality is
Speaker 2: not great and scourge of ten is not great. We're
Speaker 2: going to address all three of those issues. Biggest way
Speaker 2: to address them is increased supply. Supply is going to
Speaker 2: meet demand. Now, in the recent pasts, we've had a
Speaker 2: big problem, as you've alluded to. I call it perfect storm.
Speaker 2: Combination of Brexit, combination of the pandemic, combination of the
Speaker 2: consequences of Putin's invasion of Ukraine. List trust is mini
Speaker 2: budget as letter. For example, inflation in steel this fifty
Speaker 2: percent price has gone up, concrete forty four percent. We've
Speaker 2: also had the legacy of the awful fire at Grenfell,
Speaker 2: where seventy two people lost their lives. So there's new
Speaker 2: safety requirements and tall buildings, a second staircase, and that
Speaker 2: perfect storm has caused all problem in terms of housing
Speaker 2: in London. The great news this government has come to
Speaker 2: our support and rescue in terms of working with us
Speaker 2: to get house boarding going again. Prior to the pandemic,
Speaker 2: we'd had the most counsel homes municipal housing built since
Speaker 2: the nineteen seventies, most homes completed since the nineteen thirties.
Speaker 2: By the way, still not enough. As you said, there's
Speaker 2: a target office speaking eight eight thousand. That's for the
Speaker 2: supply to meet the demand. We've never got there. The
Speaker 2: last time we got there was the nineteen thirties and
Speaker 2: so for the foreseeable future we're not going to meet
Speaker 2: the target. But having any stretching target means we'll get
Speaker 2: more homes built. They're going to be the right source
Speaker 2: of homes.
Speaker 1: After the break. More of my conversation with Sadi Khan.
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying this episode of Zero, please take a
Speaker 1: moment to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts, YouTube,
Speaker 1: and Spotify. It makes the algorithms happy and helps more
Speaker 1: people find this podcast. So one of the things in
Speaker 1: these emergency measures that are being brought in to try
Speaker 1: and increase the amount of housebuilding is to decrease the
Speaker 1: amount of affordable homes that can be built in these developments.
Speaker 1: You set a target of thirty five in twenty seventeen.
Speaker 1: Now you've had to concede and bring it down to
Speaker 1: twenty percent because developers say, you know, affordable housing means
Speaker 1: we can't make enough profit to build them. Do you
Speaker 1: see this reduction from thirty five to twenty percent is
Speaker 1: a failure of thinking about the policy you want to start.
Speaker 2: I think you're going to be a pragmatic Actually, up
Speaker 2: until the perfect storm I talked about, we were exceeding
Speaker 2: thirty five percent. We were doing like forty four percent
Speaker 2: homes genuine affordable, you know, rather than market value. So
Speaker 2: we've shot our policies work, but we phase a perfect storm.
Speaker 2: And I think you've got to be dexterous and pragmatic.
Speaker 2: Never allow best to be there. Any other good and
Speaker 2: so we've done is speaking to development. And by the way,
Speaker 2: is there is nothing wrong in making profit. This idea
Speaker 2: that profit is bad is nonsense. It's you know, it's
Speaker 2: the wealth creators who help create jobs, wealth and prosperity right,
Speaker 2: not trickle down, but actually properly done in a social
Speaker 2: democratic city like London. What the developers were saying to us,
Speaker 2: and we tested this, Our schemes aren't viable. The cost
Speaker 2: of the land still inflation up by fifty percent, concrete
Speaker 2: inflation up by forty four percent. We can't get the staff.
Speaker 2: We're having to have two staircases now rather than one.
Speaker 2: It rasked us to have carbon efficient buildings, arsen spot
Speaker 2: and heat pumps. It's really hard, mister Mayor, you know.
Speaker 2: And so we worked with developers, good developers. We work
Speaker 2: with councils, we work with the government and for a
Speaker 2: short term emergency measure, there are conditions attached. If you
Speaker 2: have an application and you start building straight away and
Speaker 2: you get to a first stage, first floor by a
Speaker 2: certain stage, I will relax the requirement of thirty twenty
Speaker 2: percent because it's a win win. You get the schemes
Speaker 2: off the ground, it's viable, but also we get homes
Speaker 2: built for London. By the way, there's a small window
Speaker 2: to take this opportunity. So what I'm saying to developers
Speaker 2: is use this window to get building, because we've got
Speaker 2: a crisis in London. I want you to work with
Speaker 2: me top fix it.
Speaker 1: One of the powers that you have as mayor are
Speaker 1: call in powers, where if a local council or authority
Speaker 1: is not willing to build a project, you can say no.
Speaker 1: Sure you'd think it's a good idea. Do you regret
Speaker 1: not using it more?
Speaker 2: No, We've used a lot. So so the schemes that
Speaker 2: come to me, So let's fight explain. So only certain
Speaker 2: schemes can come to me. They've got to be above
Speaker 2: a certain size, above one hundred and fifty units, and
Speaker 2: above a certain tour building. So what you want is
Speaker 2: to allow local councilors too got thirty two, to be
Speaker 2: in charge of schemes in the area. They know the
Speaker 2: area's best. Let's not be arrogant, neither iron City Hall
Speaker 2: or civil service in what I will know what's best
Speaker 2: for a certain community. If a local authority is allowing
Speaker 2: a handful of residents. There's a phrase we use nimby
Speaker 2: not in my backyard to say no to development. And
Speaker 2: there are good grounds for me to call in, and
Speaker 2: I'll call it in. There are rules around calling because
Speaker 2: they'd inspect to get overall me. So there are rules
Speaker 2: around calling. What the government's done, though, which I fully
Speaker 2: support and I lobbied for, is recognize actually the rhythm
Speaker 2: of councilors is as a council action approaches, they become
Speaker 2: risk averse because of Nimby's. And what I've said to
Speaker 2: the government is allow me to have powers to call
Speaker 2: in more developments. It's rather than one hundred and fifty.
Speaker 2: If it's fifty units, me to call it in, or
Speaker 2: a building that doesn't need to be so tall. So
Speaker 2: a developer want certainty not to ride rough shot over
Speaker 2: a community's concerns. But sometimes a council risk averse. So
Speaker 2: I'm saying to councils, look, I've not been given this power.
Speaker 2: My advice to you is to use the powers you've
Speaker 2: got to say yes to a sensible development. But if
Speaker 2: you don't, I'll take it over. But mister developer, let
Speaker 2: me tell you this. Misters, rather than miss I'm afraid,
Speaker 2: mister developer, come and speak to me before you go
Speaker 2: to the council. So I'll give you the certainty of
Speaker 2: knowing if the council is not being reasonable, I will
Speaker 2: call it, call it in. Why is that important? Because
Speaker 2: you've got to work out whether a scheme is viable.
Speaker 2: A lot of the funding for the scheme may may
Speaker 2: be based on the premise of how much you can sell,
Speaker 2: how much you can rent, and so forth. And what
Speaker 2: you don't want is to be marched up the hill
Speaker 2: and down again. And so work with me, work with
Speaker 2: the council. We don only to have an anfverirsal system.
Speaker 2: I think it can be done amicably. But this power
Speaker 2: is so important because now counselors know I'm looking over
Speaker 2: their shoulder. But developers know there's a way round a
Speaker 2: council that's not being sensible. And here's the thing. You
Speaker 2: can do a map of London and you can see
Speaker 2: the can Do councilor has done a great job in
Speaker 2: saying yes to good schemes. But you can see you
Speaker 2: want to see those councils, but they say no to
Speaker 2: everything that's not sensible. It can't be just a few councils,
Speaker 2: you know, you know carrying the burden of our entire city.
Speaker 1: You've talked about how you've changed your mind on certain
Speaker 1: policies when you want to get things done. One of
Speaker 1: the things that you opposed initially was building on the
Speaker 1: green belt. Now there's a London wide review. You have
Speaker 1: said you want some of the land on the green
Speaker 1: belt to have homes built. Why did you change your mind?
Speaker 2: So, for those that don't know London very well, othern
Speaker 2: is the greenest global city in the world. It's fantastic
Speaker 2: and these green spaces are the lungs to our city.
Speaker 2: And actually, since I've been there, we've either brought you know,
Speaker 2: a new green in or improved green into the tune
Speaker 2: of two thousand football fields soccer fields for those your
Speaker 2: listeners in America. So we've wrapped, we've investively increased green
Speaker 2: space in and then we've planted six hundred twenty thousand
Speaker 2: trees where we wild in our city. Bring them back.
Speaker 2: Beavers and bats and bees. The first two beavers well
Speaker 2: just in Beaver and Sigourney. And so we believe in
Speaker 2: I believe in this passionately. The book is called you Know,
Speaker 2: How to Win a Greener World Breathe and so that's
Speaker 2: really important. At the same time, there is a housing crisis,
Speaker 2: and you mentioned the eighty eight thousand figure. Those are
Speaker 2: the target the government has reckons we need to meet
Speaker 2: every year to meet the needs of our city. Now
Speaker 2: my policies is to build on brownfield sites. Is a
Speaker 2: disused gas fields, you know, old schemes that aren't very good.
Speaker 2: There simply isn't enough brownfield sites to meet the homes
Speaker 2: we need. But here's the thing. All of the green
Speaker 2: bell is this lush green pastures, meadows. Some of it
Speaker 2: is really poor quality. Some of it is used as
Speaker 2: car washes. Some of these is inaccessible to the public.
Speaker 2: And so what I've said is in certain conditions, if
Speaker 2: we can have a scheme that is a near public transport,
Speaker 2: if there's a good quality scheme, if it is for
Speaker 2: a decent number of affordable housing, I may give permission.
Speaker 2: Why is that important Because what we need to do
Speaker 2: is rather than having in theory great green belt inaccessible,
Speaker 2: poor quality, badly maintained, we could have good quality homes
Speaker 2: with good green around greenery around that home, meeting the
Speaker 2: needs of our city. But it's going to be near
Speaker 2: public transpor not executive homes. It's going to be good
Speaker 2: quality design, high density, affordable. And I think a combination
Speaker 2: of being pragmatic when it comes to green belt also
Speaker 2: building a brand full size means we can meet the
Speaker 2: needs of our city.
Speaker 1: So there was a study from the London School of
Speaker 1: Economics last year that looked at building in the green
Speaker 1: belt and found that if you do that, you're going
Speaker 1: to start to see the urban heat island effect, which
Speaker 1: is this extra heat that is built up because of
Speaker 1: the buildings around us. Of course, the center of the
Speaker 1: city is already very heavily built up, and there the
Speaker 1: urban heat island effect is quite strong. How are you
Speaker 1: going to try and deal with that kind of damages
Speaker 1: that come not just from heat but also to nature
Speaker 1: in general.
Speaker 2: The urban heat it's happening now. The impact is happening now.
Speaker 2: So a lot of global cities have become concrete jungles.
Speaker 2: We've de wilded and we've built over much of our
Speaker 2: lush Greek greenery. In London by and large we haven't.
Speaker 2: Particularly over the last ten years, we've greened more of
Speaker 2: our building. Why is that important? Because that's one of
Speaker 2: the ways we adapt and become resilient to climate change.
Speaker 2: Climate changes here, if we were speaking ten years ago,
Speaker 2: we've been talking about the global south. We have had
Speaker 2: now in London. You know, heat waves people don't experienced before,
Speaker 2: temperatures north of ford degrees celsius. Why is that a factor.
Speaker 2: It leads to wildfires, it leads to flush flooding. It
Speaker 2: could mean in some months of the year you can't
Speaker 2: use the undergund because temperatures have been author of degrees celsius.
Speaker 2: It's really important, so we did a number of things
Speaker 2: to adapt. The sort of trees of planting is different
Speaker 2: now we've learned from our colleagues in hotter cities trees
Speaker 2: provide shading. We've also recognized that one of the consequences
Speaker 2: of this the urban heating factories. You get hotter in
Speaker 2: the center of our cities. We've got to think about shading.
Speaker 2: Sort of buildings we have. I've installed with partners one
Speaker 2: hundred and ten water fountains, really important basic stuff, making
Speaker 2: sure restaurants give people free water and so forth. So
Speaker 2: we think with the new London plan we're working on,
Speaker 2: we can address the concerns that are there. And that's
Speaker 2: why we're working on a new on then plan because
Speaker 2: these are raal concerns we have and we'll only give
Speaker 2: permission if it makes things better, not worse. And so
Speaker 2: colleagues from the LSC who we know very well, are
Speaker 2: working with experts that we work with to make sure
Speaker 2: that the new London Plan recognizes we've got to adapt
Speaker 2: and be resilient and not make things work, not make
Speaker 2: things worse because climate changes here and it's happening.
Speaker 1: But we had the leader of the Green Party, Zak Klanski,
Speaker 1: on the podcast and he said the thing which is
Speaker 1: a little bit surprising. He said, London hasn't suffered a
Speaker 1: flood like Valencia and Spain, which is devastated by a
Speaker 1: flood recently because of pure luck, because London is not
Speaker 1: prepared for that level of flooding. You talketor a little
Speaker 1: bit about heat. You have this heat risk Delivery plan
Speaker 1: that's coming in the summer, but what about flooding.
Speaker 2: Flood's ural concern. We've had flooding in London. So one
Speaker 2: of the things that I've done as the mayor is
Speaker 2: I'm the first mayor to invest above and beyond what
Speaker 2: the government says we should in the fire service. Why
Speaker 2: because the fire Service isn't just dinner with fires and
Speaker 2: tall buildings important part of their job, but as dealing
Speaker 2: with things like wildfires, people may realize, you know, you
Speaker 2: look at the images in California or Greece, there's wildfires
Speaker 2: in London. In fact, there have been some weeks where
Speaker 2: our fire service has been the busiest since the Second
Speaker 2: World War during the Blitz, and so we've got to
Speaker 2: think about the way we control shrubbery, about the proximity
Speaker 2: to hedges to homes. Maintenance is really important. Flooding often
Speaker 2: follows extreme temperature and we have flash flooding. So we've
Speaker 2: had in London, you know, in two hours, the same
Speaker 2: amount of rain as usually get in two months, and
Speaker 2: because of you mentioned in the urban effect, because of
Speaker 2: the concrete nature of our center, but also Sue has
Speaker 2: not been properly maintained and the pace of the rainfall,
Speaker 2: we get flooding. And so our fire Brigade now has
Speaker 2: boats in the center of our city because of this
Speaker 2: is your flash flooding. So we do lots of things.
Speaker 2: We've convened a number of colleagues across London to work
Speaker 2: with the issue of how we make our properties resilient
Speaker 2: to flooding. Unfortunately many of them won't be basement flats
Speaker 2: at some train stations, and so sensible things that have
Speaker 2: an insurance policy, having a go bag, making sure we
Speaker 2: let you know when we think floods may rull. Important
Speaker 2: to be prepared at the same time, how do we
Speaker 2: make ourselves resilient to that, So things like sustainable urban drainage,
Speaker 2: things like where it's possible have grass rather than concretes.
Speaker 2: People have paved over their front gardens to part their
Speaker 2: car for reasons. We can understand having green roofs, having
Speaker 2: green walls. That's why it's incredibly important to learn the
Speaker 2: lessons from colleague across the globe. You mentioned Valencia. One
Speaker 2: of the joys being coacher of C forty is we
Speaker 2: got to speak to college across the globe who've been
Speaker 2: through this. Where the Phoenix who you know, great Mayor
Speaker 2: Kate in Phoenix, you know how you paint your roofs
Speaker 2: can have it inact call in buildings can have an impact.
Speaker 2: And so we're learning from those cities that have been
Speaker 2: through this to learn the lessons veracity at the same
Speaker 2: time as not being anti growth. And I say this
Speaker 2: in a respectful way, you know, the green parture against growth.
Speaker 2: I'm in favor of growth. It's going to be good
Speaker 2: growth and I think we can get good growth. And
Speaker 2: the city of London is over successive centuries we've had
Speaker 2: good growth with some exceptions.
Speaker 1: So those sound like good ideas, but you're going to
Speaker 1: have to find ways to pay for it. Revenues for
Speaker 1: London that you get and that you have to spend.
Speaker 1: You talked about how you have to balance where the
Speaker 1: subsidies go, how you take money from one place to
Speaker 1: the other. How are you going to make how are
Speaker 1: you going to pay for all this adaptation that is
Speaker 1: necessary for London.
Speaker 2: Well, first, when it comes to climate change, there is
Speaker 2: a cost of inaction and there is cost of action,
Speaker 2: and it's really important to understand it's not you know,
Speaker 2: there is a cost of inaction. We mentioned the floods,
Speaker 2: mentioned wildfires, wildfires. You can mention air pollution, so air
Speaker 2: pollution good example. The cost to the NHS of kids
Speaker 2: with asthma outs with asthma to bench the heart disease
Speaker 2: is huge, So we're supporting the NHS by fixing the
Speaker 2: air in London. The same goes with our policies in
Speaker 2: relation to nutritious free mills. It helps the family with
Speaker 2: the cost of living crisis, but also helps that young
Speaker 2: person not grow out to be abst and overweight. In
Speaker 2: terms of issue of resilience and adaptation, London is the
Speaker 2: green finance capital of the world and so we're doing
Speaker 2: a number of things to try and stimulate the market
Speaker 2: in terms of retrofit and homes, in terms of renewables
Speaker 2: and so forth. So I'll give you a couple of examples.
Speaker 2: So London transport to transfer for London is the biggest
Speaker 2: user of energy in London. We can influence the market.
Speaker 2: So we've set up our first ever power purchase agreement.
Speaker 2: They're in our solar panels and Essex providing energy for
Speaker 2: public transport in London. We change the market with electric
Speaker 2: vehicles because of our policies, and so it's going to
Speaker 2: be a combination of good news is we've got a
Speaker 2: government that understands this. So you know I mentioned Ed
Speaker 2: miliband the secret state in this area. We're going to
Speaker 2: have support from the government. We've already had support from
Speaker 2: the government. We ourselves will have to think about ways
Speaker 2: of borrowing to invest, but also the market will help.
Speaker 2: There's a queue of people who want to invest in
Speaker 2: this technology. Why there's a first mover advantage. And I
Speaker 2: think the question for us to ask ourselves is what
Speaker 2: is the future of a city like London going forward.
Speaker 2: I think it's in high school, world paid jobs. So
Speaker 2: who will install the electric vehicle charging points, Who will
Speaker 2: install the heap pups, Who will you know, install the
Speaker 2: tripical ais, Who will make the electric cars, who will
Speaker 2: make the electric buses. That's an opportunity.
Speaker 1: Well, you have been mayor for ten years, with eight
Speaker 1: of them under a Conservative prime minister and now for
Speaker 1: the last two years under a Libor prime minister. Has
Speaker 1: the Labor Party been in the national government helped.
Speaker 2: You, without doubt, But let me let me, you know,
Speaker 2: explain some of the challenges we've had over the last
Speaker 2: ten years. I think I've had six prime ministers. I
Speaker 2: think David Cameron is a test now Theresa may Boris Johnson,
Speaker 2: Liz Trusts, Richard Sunac and Kirs Starman and kids being
Speaker 2: the best not just because we're friends, but because he's
Speaker 2: not anti London. And there's been occasions where you've have
Speaker 2: some prime ministers who have been actually quite good to
Speaker 2: deal with. My job as mayor is to be the
Speaker 2: champion in advocate of London. Sometimes I will support the
Speaker 2: government whatever color it is. Sometimes I'll oppose the government,
Speaker 2: and we've had lots of support from this government. But
Speaker 2: here's one of the things which which I think the
Speaker 2: government's not probably got across. And I mentioned one of
Speaker 2: my you know, ambitions is to be straight with the Londoner.
Speaker 2: Is I think the government's got explained to the country.
Speaker 2: You don't get change overnight. You can't undo fourteen years
Speaker 2: worth of austerity, you can't undo some of the policies
Speaker 2: of the last fourteen years just in twenty one twenty
Speaker 2: two months. And that's why you're you're seeing some frustration
Speaker 2: because people assumed, because they may have been let to
Speaker 2: believe this change it happen straight away. So yes, I'm
Speaker 2: really pleased with the support I'm receiving from government. It's
Speaker 2: not quite as fast or as rapid as Londoners would
Speaker 2: have liked or I would have liked, but it's a
Speaker 2: big improvement I would have had over the last eight
Speaker 2: years before that. But it's not all been perfect. There
Speaker 2: have been earests where I still disagree with the government,
Speaker 2: irrespective of it being a labor government, and our carry
Speaker 2: on working with them where it's in our interest, but
Speaker 2: also calling them out where it's not well.
Speaker 1: One area of disagreement that you've had is on the
Speaker 1: expansion of the Heather Airport to give it a third runway.
Speaker 1: Initially many years ago you supported that idea, and then
Speaker 1: you saw the climate case, the common emissions case, and
Speaker 1: you've changed your mind. But the government last year okayed
Speaker 1: the expansion. Is it frustrating?
Speaker 2: And then they're making a big mistake. I think they've
Speaker 2: not learned the lessons of previous attempts to expand Heathrow.
Speaker 2: I'm in favor of a better Heathrow, not a bigger one.
Speaker 2: I suspect what's happened is the institutional knowledge and the Treasury,
Speaker 2: you know, said to the Chancellor, here's a way of
Speaker 2: having growth, because you know, not reasonably, the Chancellor's obsessed
Speaker 2: with the growth and it looks on paper fantastic. How
Speaker 2: can it not be a great idea to, you know,
Speaker 2: have another runway and become a hubby, import more freight,
Speaker 2: more passengers. That's one side of the equation. What's the
Speaker 2: other side of the equation. What's the impact on noise pollution,
Speaker 2: what's the impact on air pollution, what's the impact on
Speaker 2: carbon emissions. What's the impact on those homes that have
Speaker 2: to be demolished to build the runway. What's the impact
Speaker 2: on a surface transport to the airport, To build this
Speaker 2: airport you've got to move the busiest motorway in Europe underground,
Speaker 2: and there are so many challenges in the way of
Speaker 2: a new runway at Heathrow. So this is a good
Speaker 2: example where I think, you know, I'm not anti flying,
Speaker 2: I'm not anti Airport's like the Green Party. I think
Speaker 2: you know, you know, airplanes have a roll to play.
Speaker 2: You know, I love going on holiday. Sometimes I've got
Speaker 2: to use an aeroplane. Sometimes I can't do meetings by Zomerby.
Speaker 2: Team has got to be in a person I love
Speaker 2: the fact tourists come to our country a lot of
Speaker 2: the fact that students come to our country out of
Speaker 2: the fact investors come to our country and so forth.
Speaker 2: We've got green light for a second run at Gatwick,
Speaker 2: We've got Standstad expanding, we've got City Airport expanding. I
Speaker 2: think the argument for a new runway at Heathrow aren't
Speaker 2: as strong as they were decades ago. And so you know,
Speaker 2: this is an example where in my role as Mayor
Speaker 2: of London, I'll be standing up to this government. Yes
Speaker 2: it's the government, Yes they're full of my friends, but
Speaker 2: it's not in London's interests.
Speaker 1: Well on these trade offs. The international monetary Fund has
Speaker 1: just come out and said, in this energy shock caused
Speaker 1: by the war in them, at least uk is going
Speaker 1: to be the worst affected country. Second time around, after
Speaker 1: Putin invaded Ukraine. Now there is a debate within your
Speaker 1: party about drilling more in the Nazi Where do you stand?
Speaker 2: Well, course, go Backista, which is I think it's just
Speaker 2: worthron than ourselves. How we got in this mess? This
Speaker 2: is this is not an act of God. This was
Speaker 2: President Trump deciding, with Messing Yahoo the promising note from
Speaker 2: Israel to start a war with Iran and Lebanon, without
Speaker 2: a legal basis, without a game plan, without an access strategy,
Speaker 2: and any sensible person could have foreseen it would have
Speaker 2: an impact on wholesale oil and gas prices, and knows
Speaker 2: basic geography would have undersigned where the strait of hotomosis
Speaker 2: and how it's used and so forth. And so what
Speaker 2: we're going through now is the direct consequence of President
Speaker 2: Trump's Actually, it's really important to spill that up. Secondly,
Speaker 2: we are too reliant on fossil fuels coming from overseas
Speaker 2: park nor Thy for a second. So we experience with
Speaker 2: Putin's invasion of Ukraine, the impact the shock on our
Speaker 2: country's economy, and we're now seeing it again with what's
Speaker 2: happening in the Middle East and Iran. This should be
Speaker 2: a catalyst for us to urgently get any security in
Speaker 2: terms of renewables. If there was anybody who was sitting
Speaker 2: on the fence or who was against and moved towards
Speaker 2: solar and moved towards wind, and moved towards title and
Speaker 2: moved towards nuclear, this should be the wake up call saying,
Speaker 2: by the way, this is not going to be the
Speaker 2: last time you know, wholesale gas and the wholesale oil
Speaker 2: goes up, So we've got to recognize this is the
Speaker 2: reason why we should have any insecurity. The costs of
Speaker 2: action based the costs of in action during the transition,
Speaker 2: it will be hard. It's like anybody who's had any
Speaker 2: building work done in your home. It's hard, right, So
Speaker 2: the trans would may be hard, but the old end
Speaker 2: gold's going to be any security, which leads on to
Speaker 2: the drilling in the North Sea. Look, the idea that
Speaker 2: by drilling more in the North Sea for oil or gas,
Speaker 2: we're going to suddenly have cheaper energies, nonsense is with
Speaker 2: the birds. That's not how the international markets work, and
Speaker 2: I'd say to those people who are selling Snake or
Speaker 2: the Reform Party, the Conservative Party, people will see through
Speaker 2: this because the promise you're making, you know, drill now
Speaker 2: cheap energy prices this autumn is nonsense. That's not how
Speaker 2: the wholesale gas and all the markets work. By the way,
Speaker 2: investing in renewables, we'll see benefits sooner rather than later.
Speaker 2: Community energy, as I've talked about the local energy plans
Speaker 2: more lead to cheaper energy sooner. Around the nature insulecting
Speaker 2: your homes improves your bill straight away. Double glades and
Speaker 2: tripical Asian regies your bills Australia. So there are things
Speaker 2: we can do in the short terms. You've got to
Speaker 2: do it by they the government's going to have to
Speaker 2: step in more. I think. So they've stepped in for
Speaker 2: this quarter the way they do their policies every quarter.
Speaker 2: I understand that. I suspect as the weather gets worse
Speaker 2: in order to winter that they do more smoot.
Speaker 1: So these disagreements that you have with your party, which
Speaker 1: are healthy, and you should have disagreements within parties, you know,
Speaker 1: But here Starmar, besides being your friend, does he see
Speaker 1: you as the Mayor of London as an asset or arrival.
Speaker 2: You have to ask care that does not arrival. I mean,
Speaker 2: we sport different football teams as soccer teams, and so
Speaker 2: were rivals there. But look, i think one of the
Speaker 2: joys of a democracy, and one of the joys of
Speaker 2: pluralism is you can, you know, disagree agreeably. And I've
Speaker 2: always been somebody who's worked with people from how a
Speaker 2: party they are. I've got allies in my coalition who
Speaker 2: are Greens, who are lib Dems, who are Conservatives who
Speaker 2: voted to Remain for example, you know, you know, and
Speaker 2: so it's not possible for a labor meyt to always
Speaker 2: agree with a labor prime minister, even when he wants
Speaker 2: to or she wants to, because actually there's got to
Speaker 2: be areas of we've done screen. By the way, I've
Speaker 2: been a member of the layor part since I was fifteen,
Speaker 2: so I've had as leaders, you know, John Smith as
Speaker 2: leader first, John Mian Lord Kinnick was leader from John
Speaker 2: Smith all the way through to you know, Tony Blair,
Speaker 2: Ed Miller Band, Jeremy Corbyn, Kirs Starmer, interim leaders like
Speaker 2: Harriet Harmon and Margaret Beckett, there's never been one leader.
Speaker 2: And Gordon Brown, of course, there has never been one
Speaker 2: leader I've agreed one hundred percent of time with and
Speaker 2: that's the joy of democracy.
Speaker 1: You have called on labor to reach out to more
Speaker 1: liberal progressive voters. We look at the national polls and
Speaker 1: the Green Party is taking many of the voters on
Speaker 1: the left, Reform is taking many of the voters on
Speaker 1: the right, and Labor's popular larities falling. What does it
Speaker 1: look like in practice to get labor to actually reach
Speaker 1: out to liberal progressive.
Speaker 2: Well, I think this issue raises actually one of the
Speaker 2: most profound issues going forward for progressive politics across the globe.
Speaker 2: Part for a second, self interest, how good about it
Speaker 2: is for labor? Just thinking logically, I think we've got
Speaker 2: to recognize that people are less tribal. So when I
Speaker 2: was growing up, you could knock on a door and
Speaker 2: somebody would answer the door and they'd say, my entire
Speaker 2: family is labor, We've always been labor. Don't worry, you're okay,
Speaker 2: and that's true. Or similarly, my family's conservative, always be conservative,
Speaker 2: don't waste your time with me, and that was true.
Speaker 2: Then It's very different now within a household, different people
Speaker 2: vote differently within a household. They change the way they
Speaker 2: vote between elections. But also they don't identify themselves as
Speaker 2: labor or conservative, or indeed, in America, Republican or Democratic.
Speaker 2: It's a lot more transactional. That's a good thing because
Speaker 2: it means I've got to go back and earn your
Speaker 2: vote every time there's an election, rather than relying upon
Speaker 2: it in the bank forever, and that leads to complacency
Speaker 2: and laziness. Here's the issue. I think there's a group
Speaker 2: of progressives who agree on a huge amount of things,
Speaker 2: but may not agree with the means to the ends.
Speaker 2: And I think denigrating parties you may be thinking about
Speaker 2: voting with is not the way to get your vote.
Speaker 2: I think recognizing there are things that you want to
Speaker 2: do that I want to do and ask you to
Speaker 2: lend me your vote is the way to go forward.
Speaker 2: And so, for example, in this country, there is a
Speaker 2: progressive coalition center and left of center, you know, Labor, Lib, Dem, Greens,
Speaker 2: some conservatives you know as well. That is a coalition
Speaker 2: that secures you know, votes to an election. I know
Speaker 2: because that's what I've done in my three elections in
Speaker 2: twenty sixteen. Twenty one and twenty four a progressive coalition.
Speaker 2: I think last in July twenty twenty four, the Labor
Speaker 2: Party won a landslide election. It was based on a
Speaker 2: progressive coalition. I know because I knocked on doors. There
Speaker 2: are people who let us they vote, who weren't really
Speaker 2: Labor voters, but the one of the Conservatives to get out. Now,
Speaker 2: I think it's really important to keep that coalition alive
Speaker 2: by saying, look, you know, don't allow best to be
Speaker 2: there with the good I'm not saying I'm perfect, but
Speaker 2: this is what I will do if you lend me
Speaker 2: vote again. And I think it's really important to understand
Speaker 2: if you're not careful, we're going to sleep walk into
Speaker 2: reform government.
Speaker 1: So you are going to reach out to them, but
Speaker 1: you're not thinking that Labor should change its policies, like
Speaker 1: bring in some of the economic policies from the Greens
Speaker 1: of wealth tax maybe, or some amount of more greater
Speaker 1: moral clarity on issues around Israel, Gaza or.
Speaker 2: Well I'll say this. I mean, you know, I was
Speaker 2: in the government when you know Tony Blair was Prime Minister,
Speaker 2: and I think Kirs Starmer has learned the lessons from
Speaker 2: the Iraq War. Kis Starmer is the first British Prime minister,
Speaker 2: for example, to recognize the safe Palestine. That is progress
Speaker 2: in terms of previous promise of all parties really important.
Speaker 2: But also I think Kirs Starmer has learned the lessons
Speaker 2: from the Iraq War by not joining America unconditionally in
Speaker 2: this war. As I said, no legal basis, no game plan,
Speaker 2: no strategy, and so we can say to progress is
Speaker 2: look how this Laber government is different to profus And
Speaker 2: I'll give another example in terms of this government, the
Speaker 2: support we're given to childcare, the support we're given to
Speaker 2: renters around new rights, the support we're given to workers,
Speaker 2: the suport we're given to those families with two children
Speaker 2: on benefits, and so there are progressive things that government's
Speaker 2: doing you've got to chat about at the same time
Speaker 2: recognizing that actually there are some concerns that we're not meeting.
Speaker 2: So I think, for example, we should have close alignment
Speaker 2: with the European Union. I'd like us to rejoin the
Speaker 2: European Union, not because it may well US votes, but
Speaker 2: it's the right thing to do. And there are other
Speaker 2: examples that I think we can be doing.
Speaker 1: So one aspect of this that you mentioned that the government,
Speaker 1: now almost two years in power, has not done enough
Speaker 1: fast enough. This is something you might be able to
Speaker 1: actually have my parents with because they've been a little confused.
Speaker 1: They look at the politics here. They see the Labor
Speaker 1: government has a huge majority but is unable to take
Speaker 1: these fast, decisive actions. There's all this speculation in the
Speaker 1: media about leadership contests. How do you explain UK politics
Speaker 1: with such a Labor majority still not acting like it
Speaker 1: has that majority.
Speaker 2: I mean to be fair to this government, I said,
Speaker 2: more we are in twenty two months. They've achieved a
Speaker 2: hell of a lot. I think. I think one of
Speaker 2: the things I've got to recognize is people's expectations are
Speaker 2: even greater in terms of what you can achieve and
Speaker 2: let the lower parties on with the Labor governments go
Speaker 2: majority one hundred and seventeen parliament, so we shouldn't really
Speaker 2: be losing votes. And I think with there's opportunity now,
Speaker 2: there's an opportunity in the New king Speech. We're recording
Speaker 2: this in April. There's a New king Speech coming out
Speaker 2: in May to set out, you know, the next twelve
Speaker 2: months in terms of legislation to do a better job
Speaker 2: in making sure that the entire cavalry of MPs is
Speaker 2: on side. But to recognize sometimes you've got to be
Speaker 2: pragmatic and dexterous. You've been challenging me rightly about me
Speaker 2: making compromises. That's the art of politics, right And I
Speaker 2: think you know, the Labor government's lost the institutional memory
Speaker 2: of running stuff. I mean we last we're in power
Speaker 2: in four tenty ten. And I say in a respectful way.
Speaker 2: A lot of those in government haven't got executive experience
Speaker 2: and so it takes time to get used to the
Speaker 2: leavers and you know, to work out how things work.
Speaker 2: And I think the first two years and embedded in
Speaker 2: and I'm hoping to see acceleration in terms of you know,
Speaker 2: change for the good of the next three years.
Speaker 1: Do you think Samar will be Prime Minister by the
Speaker 1: end of the year, I do.
Speaker 2: You know. I think it would be folly when we've
Speaker 2: got the sort of what's happening in terms of geopolitics.
Speaker 2: We see what's happening in Ukraine and Iran and in
Speaker 2: Lebanon and in the Middle East. When you see the
Speaker 2: progress we've made to change this stage. But also when
Speaker 2: I speak to people from obviousseas, whether you're a chief executive,
Speaker 2: whether you're an angel investor, whether you're a student. One
Speaker 2: of the things that you love about this country compared
Speaker 2: to I want name other countries to cause offense, is
Speaker 2: a certainty in the stability that's our USP. Why do
Speaker 2: we want to jeopardize our usp by changing leader at
Speaker 2: this stage majority of undred and seventy The next election
Speaker 2: isn't until July twenty twenty nine. It could go to
Speaker 2: August twenty twenty nine. We even halfway through, and so
Speaker 2: the way I describe it is in football terms, we're
Speaker 2: approaching halftime. We are losing. The opinion polls shouldn't be ignored.
Speaker 2: You know, we are losing. We've got there's so much
Speaker 2: to go in the game, and the most important poll
Speaker 2: is what up was at the final whistle, whether you
Speaker 2: won or lost the final whistle. And you need to
Speaker 2: win so you can have permission to have another term
Speaker 2: to serve your country.
Speaker 1: You've talked about running for a fourth term as London mayor,
Speaker 1: which elections would be in twenty twenty eight. Do you
Speaker 1: think a starmar government will help you win that fourth term?
Speaker 2: Yeah, because what we'll have is more delivery. So what
Speaker 2: we've achieved. Last thing is generally proud of is being
Speaker 2: despite governments and despite the head winds we've had from
Speaker 2: Brexit to the pandemic, to terrorist tax, to the over
Speaker 2: far at Grenfell to you know, trusted men budget, to
Speaker 2: put inservation of Ukraine to now you know, Trump's invasion
Speaker 2: of Iran with NASAOHU. So despite all those head winds,
Speaker 2: despite you know, austerity, Conservative government achieved a huge amount
Speaker 2: in the last twenty more months. We've done a lot more.
Speaker 2: Not we stand on the headwinds and you know, the
Speaker 2: next you know, two years with the Lobic government we
Speaker 2: can achieve far more. And it's really important, you know,
Speaker 2: to be honest with you know, with Londoners and honest
Speaker 2: with the country. Yeah. I appreciate the impatience. That's a
Speaker 2: good thing. People are impatient for change. But you know,
Speaker 2: I've still got, you know, feel in my tank. I'm
Speaker 2: stort fizzing with ideas. I'm looking forward to continue to
Speaker 2: serve the great city.
Speaker 1: More than eighty percent of the UK's population lives in
Speaker 1: urban areas. Should the next Prime Minister be a mayor.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, we'll have to wait and see. But
Speaker 2: if if k wants to be a mayor before he
Speaker 2: runs again, that's up to Care. But listen now, you know,
Speaker 2: you know, in Care starmer to be a leader of
Speaker 2: the Labor Party and going into the next general election.
Speaker 2: But mayors of huge amount experience. I mean, you see
Speaker 2: in France, you know has gone to be presidents of
Speaker 2: you know, France. In America we've seen the great legacy
Speaker 2: of fim mayors and you know, one of the leading
Speaker 2: contenders from the Democrats as a full mayor of San Francisco.
Speaker 2: So you know, so mays of huge amount experience, and
Speaker 2: so we're a lot to.
Speaker 1: Offa so too close. I want to go back to
Speaker 1: climate policy and read something from your book. You say,
Speaker 1: this obsession with winning means lots of people have been
Speaker 1: surprised by the effort I've put into climate during my mayoralty.
Speaker 1: The received wisdom in politics is simple, tough climate policies
Speaker 1: are a vote loser. Are you now confident that climate
Speaker 1: policies aren't a vote loser?
Speaker 2: See? You raise a really important point. And so one
Speaker 2: of the things that I was really aware of as
Speaker 2: we approached May twenty four. My most recent election victory
Speaker 2: was on the ballot paper was my main opponent was
Speaker 2: saying she was against the ultrala mision zone, against the
Speaker 2: cleaner zone, against the congestion charge, against many of AGUA policies,
Speaker 2: And so London has had a choice more environment for
Speaker 2: any policies with me or reversal with my main opponent.
Speaker 2: And a number of mayors were in touch with me
Speaker 2: from across the globe waiting to see which way things
Speaker 2: would fall, because that would impact whether they went forward,
Speaker 2: whether they suspended, or whether they went back, because you
Speaker 2: can't allow best to be the end of the good, right,
Speaker 2: There's no put losing an election and the next person
Speaker 2: going backwards. So made me and them compromising, and we
Speaker 2: won huge. It's the biggest victory of an incumbent, first
Speaker 2: time we've had a London mayor for a third term.
Speaker 2: And that gave confidence to people across the globe in
Speaker 2: terms of proceeding with these policies. And I'm speaking to
Speaker 2: the Governor of New York about her concerns around the
Speaker 2: congestion charge and many others across the globe as well,
Speaker 2: the mayor of Milan and so forth. But also here's
Speaker 2: the really interesting thing domestically, so you know there were
Speaker 2: concerns in the Labor Party about my policies. The National
Speaker 2: Party we're not in favor of my policy, not with
Speaker 2: the Conservatives nor the Liberal Democrats nowhere reform. And so
Speaker 2: it's given the Labor Party confidence in terms of this issue,
Speaker 2: which is why I'm really proud you've got some of
Speaker 2: the policies from Ed Milliban. The Prome minister. K Starmer
Speaker 2: has said, we won't tolerate dirty water, why do we
Speaker 2: tolerate dirty air? And that's because I think we've given
Speaker 2: people the confidence that actually this stuff is popular as
Speaker 2: long as you explain it properly. I mean, when you
Speaker 2: say environment that's meaningless to most people. When you say
Speaker 2: clean air, when you say cheaper bills, when you say
Speaker 2: the impact on your family in terms of the you know,
Speaker 2: winter and summer, when you explain the ability to use
Speaker 2: the underground, when you explain these you know, being more
Speaker 2: pretty with nicer trees, that's a different conversation. And so
Speaker 2: I think what I think it was. I think as
Speaker 2: Arnold Sauznegger who once said that thing with the environmentalists,
Speaker 2: they were the worst pr in the world, I think
Speaker 2: he's got a point there.
Speaker 1: Thank you Sadi. This episode was produced by Chris Martlou
Speaker 1: Jessica Beck, Andy Hayward and Oscar Boy. Our theme music
Speaker 1: is composed by Wonderley. Special thanks to Meghan Olson, Moses
Speaker 1: andm Dora Milan and Sharon chen I, am Akshatrati back
Speaker 1: So