WEBVTT - Wall Street Wants India's Million-Dollar Traders 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:06.760 You're listening to Asia Centric from Bloomberg Intelligence, the podcast 0:00:06.760 --> 0:00:09.600 that pulls back the curtain on global business so you 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:13.399 can invest better across the Asia Pacific rim. I'm John 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:17.440 Lee calling in from Singapore and welcome Ishika, Asia stocks 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:20.280 reporter for Bloomberg News, who is filling in for our 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:24.079 regular co host Tom Corbett. Welcome to Asia Centric, Ishika. 0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:28.680 Thanks John, So let's stop India. Ambitious finance professionals have 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:32.479 never had it so good there while the international compatriots 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:36.959 are facing job cuts and curtailed bonuses, especially in China. 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:38.520 For them, it's boom time. 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:43.000 The employment market is so strong that stories abound of 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:47.760 multi million dollar trading jobs and private bankers demanding fifty 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:50.559 percent pay hikes or more just to move firms. 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:55.000 So is India's moment really here? And what could go wrong? 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:55.720 Here? 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:59.520 To discuss India's scramble for talent is a Nil Shama, 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:04.400 managing partner of apak At executive search firm Options Group, 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:07.480 calling in from Mumbai, India. Welcome and Neil. 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:10.360 Hi John Hi, Ashika, thanks a lot for inviting me 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:11.640 and Neil. 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:15.200 There's a lot of news about how Wall Street banks 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:20.240 trading firms are scrambling to hire talent in India. Is 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:23.080 there really a hiring binge going on over there? 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:28.600 Yes. I think the whole environment and the focus on 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:33.160 the India on shore trading bits started just pre COVID. 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:37.880 We started seeing interest coming in from bulsh bracket trading 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:41.160 firms looking at setting up on shore operations in India, 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:43.959 but COVID sort of pushed it back by a year 0:01:44.080 --> 0:01:47.160 or two. What for last three or four years, you know, 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:50.840 we're seeing host of firms sort of coming in trying 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:53.400 to set up on shore presence, you know, setting up 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:57.880 trading Dean Systematic Traders last year year and a half, 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:00.680 trying to sort of now build up more depth and 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:04.240 the talent desk on ground by hiring qrs QT. So, yes, 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:05.640 the war of talent is clearly on. 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:07.400 Yeah. 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:10.000 We've also seen a lot of private banks who had 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:14.400 left in the mid twenty tens, right, such as UBS 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:18.880 or HSBC and even Blackrock on the asset management side, 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:22.320 they're coming back to India now. And the private bankers 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:24.880 apparently are being able to charge up to fifty percent 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:29.079 to move firms, and if they move with AUM then 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:31.680 they can charge apparently eighteen to twenty percent of their 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:34.440 fee is what are you hearing on the private banking side. 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:37.160 Yes, private banking space in fact has been very hot 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:39.720 for the last seven eight years. Is just that now 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:42.200 in last two or three years we are seeing that 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:46.639 the large pulsh bracket international ones have started to sort 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:50.000 of double down and look at building onshore teams. This 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:54.080 is one business where we have seen that talent is 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:56.760 very rare to find and they can very much demand 0:02:56.800 --> 0:02:59.040 their price in terms of when they're looking at moving out. 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:01.560 So of course, you know, when they're looking to move out, 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:04.639 a lot of other factors come into play the platform, 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:07.280 what their offerings are, you know, how deep their product 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:11.640 suite looks like. But there is in no shape in 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:14.400 form you know, if there is somebody out there with 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:17.040 a good book, there is there's a clear market for 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:20.280 that talent. So it's not a headcount driven market today. 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:22.480 I would say it's a very talent driven market. So 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:26.400 talent is driving the whole movement skill in the space. 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:29.720 So neil is that the hot sector private banking? What 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:33.040 about investment banking, asset management trading. 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:35.520 Across the whole spectrum? I would say the buy side, 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:38.760 you know, so asset management last five or six years, 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:41.560 if you could have seen the AUMs for most of 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:45.320 the large asset management long only as management companies on 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:48.160 shore has swelled up. Clearly there is a high interest 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:51.880 when you're looking at bulge bracket asset management firms, you 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:54.600 know they're forming joint ventures on shore head in India. 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:57.040 We're seeing interest on that lines. You know, clearly there 0:03:57.120 --> 0:04:01.000 is interest towards the direct access to the Indian markets 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:02.840 and from the both sides, right you know, it's not 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:06.000 only happening from the onshore talent side of it, but 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:10.160 also the NRI business which also we are seeing headcounts 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:13.360 going up. So clearly the high interest on talent on 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:13.840 that front. 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:18.280 Two, speaking of asset management, so India's stock market has 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:20.479 more than doubled in the last five years and it 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:23.279 briefly overtook Hong Kong as the fourth largest in the 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:26.640 world by market gap of over four trillion US dollars. 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:30.840 Is that what's driving this big optimism on India. 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:35.599 Yes, I think the maturity in the ecosystem has started 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:38.960 to come in. So there is a financial asset last 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:42.640 is being looked up more seriously by the high net 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:45.560 worth individuals. You know, disposable income as it's growing in 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:48.400 the country, you know, as the GDP of the countries increasing, 0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:51.480 per capita income of the countries increasing, especially in the 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:55.000 urban tier one PA two cities. There is clearly high 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:57.880 interest which is there in the financial assets, which is 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:00.440 driving a large part of growth in that segment. 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:03.480 And you also had, like in the past, the currency 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:06.120 controls are very strong. But the government setting up the 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:10.120 likes of Gift City in Gujrat, which is I think 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:13.479 it has no restrictions on currency controls if I'm not wrong, 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:15.880 So that is helping in a big way, right your 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:18.359 JP Morgan and Barclays have set up officers there. 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:21.719 Yes, it's not only them, even the buy set firms, 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:23.680 you know, the global hedge funds, you know, they are 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:27.520 also looking at setting up on shore operations. Indian large 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:30.680 proper trating firms is also set up their platforms over there. 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:33.919 I think in some shape and form, the regulators or 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:36.960 the political ecosystem is trying to sort of enable and 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:40.279 compete with the markets like Tobay, you know, so where 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:45.040 excess and moving off capital is a little bit more smoother, clearly, 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:47.560 so Gift City is one which is coming up as 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:51.120 a great place in terms of providing more opportunities for 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:54.200 ease of business. But the challenge in Gift City remains 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:56.880 around talent. You know, access to talent, depth of talent 0:05:56.920 --> 0:05:59.560 in that particular market, which is not there as yet. 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:04.480 Asia Centric is produced by Bloomberg Intelligence, where more than 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:08.360 five hundred experienced analysts and strategists work around the clock 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:12.200 to bring you timely, world class research. Our coverage spans 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:16.760 two hundred market industries, currencies, commodities and industries, as well 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:19.880 as over two thousand equities and credits. If you like 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:23.880 what you hear, don't forget to subscribe and chirm. I 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:25.560 have to ask the question that a lot of people 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:28.520 are waiting for Ishika. You did write in one of 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:31.720 your notes that top traders in India can now make 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:35.640 more than one million dollars a year. Who is offering 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:36.440 these packages? 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:40.359 Yeah, I'm sure Andil would love to answer that question, 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:43.119 but he can't because of his rule, so I speak 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:47.480 in his stone instead. So basically, you have these market 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:51.200 making firms, international firms such as your Optimers of the 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:55.279 World or your IMC Trading Tower Capital. Some of them 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:58.279 have been established in India, have had a presence in 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:01.520 India for many years now, but you're seeing a new 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:05.360 wave of market makers coming to India now because of 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:09.360 the big buzz around its options market. India has the 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:11.920 biggest options market in the world by the number of 0:07:11.960 --> 0:07:16.640 contracts traded, beating even the US. And they've really come 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:19.560 here to make their money, right, to find a new 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:23.120 place to generate profits. So you're seeing the heads of 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:27.239 the algo trading desks. When they're really good, they're bringing 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:30.560 in exceptional amounts of revenues. They're getting one million dollars 0:07:30.640 --> 0:07:31.800 annually in pay. 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:35.400 Just to add to that Uni surprise. Actually, though the 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:38.800 international firms are looking at paying out that big box, 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:41.680 it's the domestic firms which are driving the force in 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:44.680 that matter, because most of the domestic firms in that space, 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:46.520 the names that you mentioned, are trying to come in 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:50.560 and build on the market share. So large part of 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:55.200 these platforms provide aggressive profit sharing models and their technology 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:59.440 is as good as any. They payout to an employee 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:02.480 in many cases we have seen goes into multimillion dollars, 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:04.720 and to be honest, you know, most of these international 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:08.120 firms struggled to compete with that because unfortunately, in the 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:11.000 way most of the international firms law structure, they cannot 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:13.600 provide the p and L or profit sharing models, most 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:16.160 of them because they've become part of a growth player. 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:19.120 There's no direct linkages to the p and L, which 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:22.120 is where the domestic firms are still holding the cards. 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:26.680 That's an interesting comment because Ishika, there is a famous 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:30.320 court battle going on between two of the world's largest 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:33.760 trading firms, that's Jane Street and Millennium. Can you give 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:36.920 us some background and why India is so important to 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:37.959 this court case. 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:41.760 Yeah, absolutely so. Suddenly in mid April, I think it 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:45.200 happened over a weekend that Jane Street filed a court 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:50.439 case in Manhattan against two traders who work for Millennium 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:54.160 and for US. It was a big surprise because as 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:58.400 the court proceedings were going on, it was inadvertently revealed 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:03.199 that the whole case was about this options trading strategy 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:08.200 in India that one Jane Street about a billion dollars 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:13.200 last year. And apparently these two traders allegedly when they 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:15.680 went over to Millennium, they employed the same strategy and 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:19.280 but half Jane Streets profits in India. Now one billion 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:22.160 dollars is a big number for Jane Street. It brought 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:25.440 in net revenue of ten billion dollars last year. That's 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:28.680 a tenth of its revenue and now apparently millennium the 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:31.560 traders are saying that, you know, there's nothing very proprietary 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:34.640 about this, and it's not some big secret sauce that 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:38.040 they've employed. It's a very simple option strategy. From the 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:41.040 reporting that I've done, it seems like these traders have 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:46.840 been employing shot volatility strategies in India, not very complex ones, 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:50.320 just simple ones. And it seems like it's really not 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:52.320 not a big deal. But yes, it has eaten into 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:54.040 Jane Streets profits quite a bit. 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:58.160 And look, this is the top of the cream of finance. 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:00.560 You know that the trade is at these trading firms. 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:03.880 But let's just take a step down. What about investment 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:08.040 bankers private bankers? Can they really demand like a fifty 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:09.960 percent pay increase by switching firms? 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:13.080 See in investment banking space, if I jump in on this, 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:16.719 when they're moving jobs, the numbers are going up that aggressive. 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:19.560 It's very similar to you know, how the talent market 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:23.079 is in most of the developed markets. In investment bank 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:24.960 if you look at it specifically, you know the banks 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:28.959 are on journey of juniorization of resources across the board. 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:32.079 The MD headcounts are more and more tougher to come by. 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:35.640 But again there are sectors like tech pharma which are 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:38.840 of very high interests and m ANDE bankers with good 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:42.320 coverage on FSG capital markets are on high demand. But 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:45.800 what we have seen in the last couple of years, 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:48.680 especially last eight to ten months, when the whole balant 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:51.679 space in the investment banking area has sort of heated up, 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:57.240 the movements have gone up, but necessarily not from the 0:10:57.280 --> 0:10:59.640 comp perspective. We are not seeing those thirty percent forty 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:03.360 percent uptick in compensation in that particular space, you know. 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:06.559 So of course there will be one odd outline example 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:09.679 on that, but generally we'll see flat to ten twenty 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:13.600 percent premium on compositions in that space. And again I'm 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:16.960 more talking about ds and mds, you know, but when 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:20.120 you come mid and junior fifteen thirty percent is a 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:22.160 normal no onn talent movement in banking. 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:27.079 Yeah. One of our colleagues, Sarah Jane Muhmmud of Bloomberg Intelligence, 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:30.360 recently wrote a report. I think she was citing Michael Page, 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:34.320 but she was mentioning that investment bankers in Mumbai actually 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:36.680 make more money than in Hong Kong and Singapore. I 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:40.000 found that very surprising. Do you get that sense, Anil? 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:42.360 Yes, yes, very much. You have to look at into 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:45.120 the put these things into a context. Right today, when 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:49.240 you look at investment banking revenues, for few of the 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:52.840 bulsh bracket banks, a good number of them have in 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:56.480 twenty twenty three had a good forty to fifty percent 0:11:56.520 --> 0:11:59.480 of their apacker revenues coming in from India. When you 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:03.240 put that thing in perspective, most of the investment banks 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:08.040 do operate in some loose outlines and percentage of you know, 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:10.640 so based on that purely from mats, you know, the 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:13.560 numbers do look aggressive. It's just that I won't say 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:16.480 that the comp numbers in India would have gone up 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:20.360 prastically high. Is just that the average comp across the 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:22.920 region has come down, you know, so where there's a 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:25.040 good meeting point which is happening. Yeah, So I hope 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:26.000 that answers your question. 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:30.440 What about the fixed income space, because sovereign bonds of 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:34.920 India are set to get included in JP Morgan's bond indexes, 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:38.480 even Bloombergs for that matter, are you seeing excitement in 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:40.280 the fixed income trading space as well? 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:43.680 Yes and no both. Yes. From the perspective is that 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:46.640 large part of India markets and the way it's structured 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:49.960 is very flow centric. You know, proptests are not that 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:53.440 deep in i fice CE disk across the board, given 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:55.880 the regulations, how they operate and when you look at 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:59.440 flow business, so you necessarily do not see the comp 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:02.640 numbers being do fluctuating, you know, based on year and 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:05.440 year out because you're normally managing clients money. But yeah, 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:08.880 so few banks which have aggressive prop tests, we do 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:12.720 see heavy payouts and a few of the non banks 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:16.160 who are operating in FICC space actually the comp numbers 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:19.199 are far more aggressive than the commercial banks in India. 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:21.800 It's an interesting space. If you would have seen five, six, 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:24.440 seven years back, a whole bunch of investment banks started 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:27.679 to apply for bank licenses because on shore you actually 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:30.360 can't trade as an entity on ground if you do 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:34.079 not have a commercial bank license, you're restricted to trade 0:13:34.160 --> 0:13:37.360 the FX you know, which some libertations have been opened up. 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:40.040 So there was another vehicle which was the primary dealership 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:42.840 through which few of the institutions were trading on ground. 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:46.480 Seven bonds, you know, through that particular license, but there 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:48.960 are only two or three of those, and maybe it's 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:52.280 only one which makes serious money, and their pay scales 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:54.360 are very high. For the last few years, we have 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:56.520 seen the other du also trying to sort of scale 0:13:56.520 --> 0:13:58.680 their operations up, but they have struggled, you know, to 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:01.360 get approvals and sort of get things running. The talent 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:04.440 space is not that hot, so to say, in the 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:08.240 FICC space, as it's in the banking and the equity space. 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:13.320 And a neil India's gain is often portrayed as China 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:16.199 or Hong Kong's pain. You alluded to the fact that 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:19.440 banking revenues outside of India in other parts of Asia 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:22.080 has come down. Do you get a sense that, say, 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:25.240 maybe like the investment banks, the private banks, they're cutting 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:28.480 in Hong Kong, mainland China and investing in India. 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:33.040 It's differn from that. I think India had been a 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:35.720 big focus market for a lot of investment banks in 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:39.200 the last five six years. I think the political stability 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:41.840 which the country has provided, especially in last three or 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:45.280 four years, you know, geopolitically, how what's happening around the 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:48.480 world with wars and everything. The political, stable ecosystem which 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:51.760 the country has provided, and the growth oriented mindset with 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:55.000 the current regime had. You know, it's just put us 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:57.200 in a very good sweet spot, so to say, you know, 0:14:57.240 --> 0:14:59.760 and it's moving in the right direction. Of course, I 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:02.400 can deny that the pain points are coming out of 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:04.880 other countries in the region. Is creating a little bit 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:08.480 more opportunity, but it's just not purely driven by that, 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:10.640 you know. So the country in itself is moving in 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:11.360 the right direction. 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:17.040 And an ala these companies hiring locally your your private banks, 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:20.880 investment banks, trading firms, or are they hiring from overseas 0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:24.120 because there's a huge Indian diaspora that lives and works 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:28.280 in Singapore, New York, London the by I myself got 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:32.280 a lot of requests on LinkedIn from traders once I 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:35.560 put that story out and they were asking about moving 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:37.920 to India because now they can potentially make a million 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:39.960 dollars interesting, you know. 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:43.520 So since Q four last year, we have seen a 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:46.600 sudden rise in that sort of request in the jobs, 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:50.360 you know, where we felt that the clients always wanted 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:54.720 to have people who came with book of business, especially 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:57.480 in the equities banking area or even in the trading 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:00.440 space having the local expertise. But in the last two 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:03.400 or three quarters we have seen that perspective is changing 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:06.880 a bit. So today I have a lot of requests 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:09.720 from clients where they want access to talent in New York, 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:12.400 in London and more develop markets coming in with more 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:16.840 global exposure. This is like mid two thousand era, you know, 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:19.880 when a lot of returning Indian phenomena had started, so 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:21.800 people who worked on Wall Street wanted to come back, 0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:24.840 and most of the large international banks built up their 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:27.280 desks like that. And now it's like, you know, in 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:30.240 the phase where we are entering, which is more the 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:33.000 growth has seen more global. You know, we are getting 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:35.400 a lot of those kinds of requests off late. But 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:37.680 of course, you know, the talent movement was always hot, 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:39.480 so we always had requests from clients even in the 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:42.000 last five, seven, ten years, but that was more centered 0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:46.640 around tech, having experience on risk, those areas compliance, you know, 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:49.120 where you wanted to look at talent, you know, which 0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:51.520 looked at business in a different scale and a developed 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:54.000 market mindset. But now this started to sort of come 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:55.680 back into the business side too. 0:16:56.880 --> 0:16:59.720 We've talked a lot about the positive aspects, and it's 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:03.120 obvious been like a great time to be a recruiter 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:06.960 in India. But what are the challenges for that finance 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:11.520 company's face in expanding into India? What could go wrong? 0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:15.919 First and foremost, I think the firms which have not 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:19.240 been in India for last ten years or decade taking 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:20.800 and a half and the ones which are coming in 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:24.960 new The whole change of mindset, you know, of localization 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:27.800 of jobs or the job profiles is one big challenge 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:30.760 to these space. We have always looked at India as 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:34.080 a cost arbitrage market for last ten fifteen years, but 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:36.800 that has changed massively, so if you look at it today, 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:39.159 it's more about a talent arbitrage at that scale and 0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:41.320 size and depth. You know, there are very few countries 0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:44.159 which provide you that talent in the financial services and 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:47.480 the technology space, which is again another hot space in India, 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:51.920 but dealing with the unstructured industries, you know, when they're 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:56.360 looking at entering indiasa I'm talking mainly about near hot 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:58.720 space like a hedge fund or approp trading firms or 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:01.000 the market making firms, you know, trying to understand that 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:05.160 your global structure in a straight structure way you might 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:07.560 not find the straight fits is one piece which we 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:10.040 are seeing firms struggling to sort of make their way 0:18:10.080 --> 0:18:13.439 around that. That's one you know, high attrition rates. The 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:15.679 country has always had challenges on that front. So the 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:19.040 talent space in India is very volatile. So you will 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:22.720 see the attation numbers across the board will hover between 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:25.840 you know, fifteen to twenty percent many industries, which becomes 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:27.679 a new norm for the firms which you're looking at 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:30.600 setting up India and the firms which are in India 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:33.040 you know for ten fifteen years. For them, the challenges 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:34.600 are a little bit of a different kinds. It's just 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:37.800 that the global firms, for good or bad, do not 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:40.720 provide any opportunity of capital creation, which a lot of 0:18:40.760 --> 0:18:43.640 domestic firms do provide, which share you know, stock option 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:48.440 plans with aggressive eltive plans, which is one reason if 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:51.520 you would have seen in last seven eight years there's 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:55.160 a lot of talent has moved away from global institutions 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:58.000 into domestic institutions. Yeah, so those are the moving parts 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:00.400 which we all are dealing with right now. 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:04.200 I'd just like to add to that, the Indian government 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:07.920 is taking measures to sort of stem the over exuberance 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:11.440 and financial assets as well. It's kind of been trying 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:14.200 to take the fraud out of IPOs in the small 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:18.280 cap and MidCap space. In the equity market and clamp 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:21.600 down on lending to retail investors that hasn't been as 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:24.439 proper as it should be. So that is one of 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:28.320 the challenges facing this huge growth in the finance sector 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:28.800 as well. 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:31.320 Yeah, in massive way. You know, I'm just moving away 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:34.000 from the capital market space right now, so we do 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:36.400 a lot of work in the consumer commercial finance space, 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:40.399 in the consumer fintech space. For the last five six years, 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:42.520 that's the space which has been the hottest on Crown. 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:44.800 If you ask any investment banker, you know they wanted 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:46.720 to go and become a CFO for a fintech fom 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:50.240 and create a serious value for themselves. Is not there anymore, 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:53.600 especially what we have seen the steps being taken by regulators, 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:57.879 and again the VC space itself has slowed down massively 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:00.800 in investing in the fintech and additional space, so those 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:04.680 pains you can feel it. In last twelve months, activity 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:07.760 in that space has gone down massively and now we're 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:10.720 seeing cuts coming across the board. In that space. That's 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:13.240 another challenge you know, which we are seeing in the 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:14.560 financial services broadly. 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:18.200 Yeah, I have a final question for you andil who 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:21.679 are these traders? Where are these trading firms getting all 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:22.880 their traders from. 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:25.400 Yeah, you have to retain me to get that whole 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:30.480 market data. No, but yeah, you know, so that's fun 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:33.280 challenge with these firms are facing where this talent sits 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:35.439 right when you look at it from the outline of it, 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:37.920 of course, one or two international firms which have been 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:39.960 here for ten odd years, you have that talent at 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:41.960 the properating firms, you know, that's where the talent is 0:20:42.000 --> 0:20:44.360 sitting and any which ways you know, so that's been 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:48.240 one hunting ground for most of the firms entering India. 0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:49.879 But beyond that, you know, there are a couple of 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:52.800 firms again domestic firms, two or three bulk bracket large 0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:55.520 Indian firms I would say in the Indian context buls racket, 0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:59.080 which have that talent. But again that death of that 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:02.719 talent is not that. When these firms are coming into India, 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:05.520 you know, the struggle which happens is they then gravitate 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:10.120 towards the banks offshore centers, which has a real good 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:12.760 depth and talent, and they're looking at moving the talent 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:15.760 from those banks into the front office trading jobs and 0:21:15.880 --> 0:21:18.479