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Speaker 1: Please be advised this story contains adult content and graphic language.

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Speaker 1: When she's trapped, it just falls apart. It's just awful.

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Speaker 1: And I said, no, no, you didn't think about what

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Speaker 1: I should have done or what I could have done.

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Speaker 1: You said, you told me to burn the body. Did

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Speaker 1: you think I was Dan? Last night? Welcome to Sleuth.

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Speaker 1: I'm Linda Sawyer. That chilling moment you just heard happened

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Speaker 1: between Rachel Buffett and her then boyfriend Scott Arrett, who

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Speaker 1: spent two years with Rachel. Only months after Dan Wozniak's

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Speaker 1: arrest for murder. In an exclusive interview, Scott sat down

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Speaker 1: with us to talk about his time with Rachel. So

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Speaker 1: I wanted to first sort of recall when we first met.

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Speaker 1: And I remember you live pretty far from here, right

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Speaker 1: almost two hours out in the high desert. And I

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Speaker 1: remember renting my little orange juice canned car, and I

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Speaker 1: think I was driving through what they called the grape

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Speaker 1: Vine or something like that before that. But you're on

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Speaker 1: the fourteen, which is just a windswept high desert. Oh

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Speaker 1: my gosh. All I remember is white knuckles and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: why is this car moving into other lanes? And I'm

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Speaker 1: not asking it to do. Am I going to make

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Speaker 1: it a lie? And then it got there is like

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Speaker 1: this for this New York City girl is like making

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Speaker 1: County Line with those tumbleweeds. It is. I live in Maybury, RFD.

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Speaker 1: That's what it's like. Yeah, it's a very odd place,

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Speaker 1: but I like it. So I'm like, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: I have to talk to Rachel Buffett's ex boyfriend, who

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Speaker 1: who who knows it all? Who heard it all and

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Speaker 1: saw it all? Right? So I said, it's it's gonna

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Speaker 1: be worth it, And eight hours later it was yeah, yeah, was.

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Speaker 1: We had a good time, though, we did. We talked

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Speaker 1: for a long time. We certainly we closed down the

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Speaker 1: coffee shop. I think we opened it and closed it. Right. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Every once in a while my mouth would drop, but

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Speaker 1: I pull it back out. Yeah, well you made me.

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Speaker 1: I mean I started because I hadn't thought about it

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Speaker 1: in a while, and I start talking about it, and

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Speaker 1: I realized just how bizarre it sounds when you say

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Speaker 1: it out loud and when someone's typing it into their computer. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: when you're just in the middle of it, just all

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Speaker 1: this one thing, But when when you're telling on someone

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Speaker 1: who's who's typing it you're going do I say that? Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then she says, hey, how about come on come

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Speaker 1: on my podcast the Country. Sure, yeah, well but I

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Speaker 1: love what you're doing, so I think it's a good idea,

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Speaker 1: So somebody has to It's incredible to me that the most,

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Speaker 1: the most they can charge you with is accessory after

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Speaker 1: the fact. Well, we have been speaking to quite a

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Speaker 1: few people and you or I've tried to pose the question,

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Speaker 1: you know, is it possible that she didn't know that

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Speaker 1: she was duped, which is what she's saying, and there

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Speaker 1: is just not one Yes, there's like, oh god, no,

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Speaker 1: have you talked to her mother? No? But I've certainly

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Speaker 1: made my pleasantries, but they pretty much, I think at

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Speaker 1: this point try to keep to themselves, probably smarter well,

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Speaker 1: certainly after Dr Phil I think she even said, you

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Speaker 1: know something, because Steve Hair, who's the father of Sam,

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Speaker 1: said to her, I'd appreciate if you'd stopped doing interviews

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Speaker 1: and wait till the trial, because if you're innocent, let's

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Speaker 1: have the justice system decide that. And she said, maybe

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Speaker 1: I have made a mistake coming on the show. You

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Speaker 1: think sort of unraveled. I'd love to know your impressions

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Speaker 1: because you did say you saw her on the show. Um,

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Speaker 1: it was a typical performance. It was the big dough

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Speaker 1: eyes and the Disney Prince's head nods and the how

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Speaker 1: dare you think us of me? And we're talking about

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Speaker 1: two dead people and families that are grieving, and still

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Speaker 1: she managed to make the show all about her, which

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Speaker 1: tells you a lot right there. And she's the victim,

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Speaker 1: not the dead people, not the family the dead people,

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Speaker 1: but she's the victim. And she even referenced that, and

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Speaker 1: I think she felt like she was being gracious when

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Speaker 1: she said, listen, I'm a victim, but I know I

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Speaker 1: come after Julia and probably even the victims families. It's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know, you're really figuring where you are on it?

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Speaker 1: How gracious? How how you know? Extraordinary that it's like

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Speaker 1: pure psychotic narcissism. It's right there on display. I know

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Speaker 1: that I'm not the main victim. Sam and Julie are

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Speaker 1: the main victims, and then I think even secondary would

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Speaker 1: be their families. I'm after all that. I realized that,

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Speaker 1: and that's why that's why I didn't want to come

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Speaker 1: out in the limelight before two and a half years ago.

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Speaker 1: I tried to keep it to myself and tried to

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Speaker 1: work through it and try and do my own little

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Speaker 1: hillieling process or whatever. Let's talk about the church in

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Speaker 1: Christianity and how it plays such a part in this

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Speaker 1: in the family, in the Buffett family, and certainly you

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Speaker 1: know firsthand. I mean, I think one of our interviews,

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Speaker 1: Daniel Hulkyard, who was a friend of Dan Wozniak, said

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Speaker 1: that she hides behind her faith. Would you agree with

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Speaker 1: that statement. She didn't just hide behind it, she uses it.

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Speaker 1: It's it's it's brilliant. I saw a meme the other

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Speaker 1: day that made me think of her, and it says

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Speaker 1: something about never trust someone who can just confess their

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Speaker 1: crimes to their imaginary friend once a week. And I thought,

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Speaker 1: there you go, you know, I mean, the whole story

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Speaker 1: with her father and the hookers and the bankrupting the

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Speaker 1: family and then getting angry with her mother because she

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Speaker 1: was hurt by it. I'm telling her, I've been forgiven.

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Speaker 1: You need to get over it. Did he really say

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Speaker 1: that in your presence? No? No, no, Rachel told me

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Speaker 1: about it. Her mother told me about it. But that's

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Speaker 1: how they feel. Once once got forgives you, you're good

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Speaker 1: to go. In fact, I think you even said to

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Speaker 1: me when we met that Monday through Saturday, do whatever

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Speaker 1: you want, but as long as you ask for forgiveness

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Speaker 1: on Sunday. Well I think I told you. I think

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Speaker 1: she sees the Ten Commandments as a bucket list, and

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Speaker 1: she's getting through it really well. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: she's crossing him off that list one at a time,

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Speaker 1: and it's okay because on Sunday goes sorry and then

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Speaker 1: you can start all over again. I've asked this of

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Speaker 1: people that you know, are they're born again or really

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Speaker 1: Christianity is is a you know, certainly a backbone of

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Speaker 1: their livelihood. And I'm like this whole forgiveness stuff like

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Speaker 1: God forgives you, God forgives everyone on death row and

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Speaker 1: every so you could just do whatever you want and

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Speaker 1: then just say God forgive me. And the person said

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Speaker 1: to me, but you have to mean it. And I

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Speaker 1: think if you're psychotic enough, you can do it, confess

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Speaker 1: it and mean it and then do it again. I mean,

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Speaker 1: why not you know, um that long before anybody was murdered, she,

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Speaker 1: you know, a thief like nobody's business for for fun,

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Speaker 1: just steal things for fun, And how you can be

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Speaker 1: the alter religious person and think it's fun to see

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Speaker 1: how much crap you can walk out of Walmart with

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Speaker 1: stuffed in your clothing is bizarre to me. I know.

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Speaker 1: I've had interviews with several of her friends that she

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Speaker 1: literally stole on pretty much a daily basis. I mean,

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Speaker 1: whether it was food, alcohol, clothes, furniture in their house.

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Speaker 1: I mean one of the gals who was supposed to

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Speaker 1: be in her wedding party said she even stole her

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Speaker 1: bridesmaid's dresses. In her wedding dress, I'm like, how do

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Speaker 1: you do that? I mean, she's a tiny thing. Where

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Speaker 1: did she fit it? I don't know. She's very ingenious.

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Speaker 1: I was at Walmart with her one time and she

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Speaker 1: told me she was going to steal some makeup and

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Speaker 1: I said, no, no, not not, not while I'm here.

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Speaker 1: You can do whatever you want her, but if you

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Speaker 1: need makeup, I'll buy it for you. I'll buy it. Well, no,

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Speaker 1: I don't need it, It's okay. So we get up

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Speaker 1: to the checkout stand and she says, oh, I forgot something,

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Speaker 1: and I thought, oh no, and she runs back to

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Speaker 1: the makeup section, but she came back with this little

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Speaker 1: thing of like perfumer, nailpolo something something in an in

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Speaker 1: a box and so I took it out of her

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Speaker 1: hand and put it on the thing and I'm paid

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Speaker 1: for it, you know. And we got into the car

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Speaker 1: and she started just like giggling minightly. I'm like what.

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Speaker 1: And she opened the box and said, this is a

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Speaker 1: box for a five dollar one and I put this

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Speaker 1: twenty one in the box. And she was so proud

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Speaker 1: of herself. Wow. And I said, I was going to

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Speaker 1: pay for it. What difference does it mean? But it

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Speaker 1: was it was the thrill of doing it. It's the thrill.

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Speaker 1: It's the adventure of violating the Ten commandments. I swear

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Speaker 1: your bucket list, it's her bucket list. One of uh,

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Speaker 1: one of her friends, one of their mutual friends that

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Speaker 1: they had met recently, a gentleman by the name of

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Speaker 1: Chris Williams, who was the person that loaned them the

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Speaker 1: money to stave off the eviction week of the murders.

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Speaker 1: And he's got a story himself. But uh, he met

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Speaker 1: with them the night before. They invited him over it

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Speaker 1: for like barbecuing mineral sausages whatever, and he said that

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Speaker 1: he felt as if there was this feeling of We've

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Speaker 1: got to know what the next level of challenge in

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Speaker 1: our lives feels like. We need to know what it

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Speaker 1: feels like to to maybe what it feels like to

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Speaker 1: murder someone. And the reason he said that was he

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Speaker 1: said that Dan had recited on the deck. Uh this,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you know this movie, The Talented Mr. Ripley. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: it's a it's based on a Patricia Highsmith book who

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Speaker 1: sort of was the equivalent of Stephen King in Europe,

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Speaker 1: and she does all these kind of creepy stories and

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Speaker 1: and the lead in the movie, The Talented Mr. Ripley

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Speaker 1: was played by Matt Damon and that was Dan's favorite

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Speaker 1: movie role. And in front of Chris Williams, Dan starts

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Speaker 1: reciting seeing as the character of Tom Ripley, who steals

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Speaker 1: people's identities and then when they figure out who he is,

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Speaker 1: he kills them. So there's Daniel reciting, you know, word

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Speaker 1: for word scenes as if he's that Matt Damon character,

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Speaker 1: and then he sings this song, this beautiful Aria, word

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Speaker 1: for word, and literally Chris said, I was chilled to

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Speaker 1: the bone because at that moment, sam Hair leans over

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Speaker 1: his deck and he said, hey, you know, not get

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Speaker 1: off down there. You guys having some fun, and and

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Speaker 1: Daniel's like, come on down, Sam, and it's like, no,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to go to bed, but I'll see in

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Speaker 1: the morning. And he goes, Okay, you know, see you tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for helping me, Like, because Sam, that was the

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Speaker 1: day that Sam he had arranged for tomorrow was the

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Speaker 1: go help him move in the in the theater, and

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Speaker 1: that was the day Dan murdered Sam. Yeah, so he's

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Speaker 1: like a sorrow how And honestly, when that whole scene

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Speaker 1: is is you know, told to me, I got chills

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Speaker 1: because right, I'm mean life imitating art, Like it's just

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Speaker 1: so bizarre. And and that's person said to me, I

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Speaker 1: just got the feeling like they wanted to know. They

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Speaker 1: needed to know the next level of crazy. They needed

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Speaker 1: to know what it felt like to kill someone, you know.

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Speaker 1: So it sort of falls in line with a lot

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Speaker 1: of what you told me about her. Are your experiences

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Speaker 1: with her? That's really creepy? Um, there is I think

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Speaker 1: there's a there's a feeling of superiority. Um because well,

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Speaker 1: first of all, you know, God's on her side, so

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Speaker 1: how can you beat that? That's pretty perfect by it.

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Speaker 1: So and there's that feeling of she loves to manipulate

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Speaker 1: and see what she can get people to do that's

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Speaker 1: outside their comfort zone. And so I think she generally,

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Speaker 1: um in partners, picks people that she thinks she's going

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Speaker 1: to be able to manipulate like that. She made a

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Speaker 1: mistake with me. It didn't work. But and if you

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Speaker 1: work for your five other wives, thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 1: Let's just bring that up. Why don't we? No, it

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Speaker 1: didn't because I'm a little strong world. Um, but the

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Speaker 1: manipulation thing, she would play weird manipulation games, weird weird,

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Speaker 1: weird stuff. I remember. I remember going to the movies

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Speaker 1: once and it was like fifteen minutes before we even

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Speaker 1: so we bought our tickets and we're sitting on these

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Speaker 1: stairs out of the movie theater and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: I don't know where, she says to me, I've and

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Speaker 1: she would say this stuff with a straight face, and

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Speaker 1: that she would she would look at you with and say,

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Speaker 1: I've decided that my walk with Jesus isn't strong enough,

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Speaker 1: and so we need to stop having sex because it's

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Speaker 1: against my religion. So at that I didn't know that

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Speaker 1: there was a religion that was against sex. Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: we weren't married, so it was it was a horrible sin.

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Speaker 1: I was getting laid on a regular basis by someone

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Speaker 1: half my age, so I might die in between. There's

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Speaker 1: a risk everything. I can't believe tell you these things. Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is amateur psychology, and who knows. But she was

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Speaker 1: so controlled growing up. I've never heard of people editing

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Speaker 1: the bad parts out of Disney cartoons. But her parents

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Speaker 1: wouldn't let them wauch a movie unless they had gone

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Speaker 1: through and taken out anything they didn't like in like Bambi.

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Speaker 1: I was just gonna say, like baby taking a shower.

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Speaker 1: I don't know they would take out anything with it.

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Speaker 1: So she and she wasn't not to go to school,

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Speaker 1: and she wasn't how to play with the kids in

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Speaker 1: the neighborhood, and she wasn't, you know, because they weren't

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Speaker 1: good Christians, so I think in her only book. So

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Speaker 1: then she decided to go to college, and I think

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Speaker 1: her parents weren't very fond of this idea, but she

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Speaker 1: wanted to do it. So she went to the local

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Speaker 1: community college, and all of a sudden, the world opened

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Speaker 1: up and she realized, oh my god, I'm pretty, I

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Speaker 1: can be sexy, I can hold my liquor and I

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Speaker 1: can and she just think she should power. Yeah, absolutely absolutely, Guys,

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Speaker 1: you're panting and looking at her, and she Okay, I've

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Speaker 1: got this power, and she learned to use it. And

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Speaker 1: when she jumped, she jumped. I mean that's seriously, That's

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Speaker 1: when the ten Commands became, not not the ten Commandments,

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Speaker 1: but the bucket list that was, I can get away

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Speaker 1: with anything. Her friends at school at college said that

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Speaker 1: she started to smoke because she felt like because she

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Speaker 1: was homeschooled, she really didn't know how she could relate

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Speaker 1: to other people in a social setting, and so she

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Speaker 1: thought that made her look cool, and the same thing

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Speaker 1: with the drugs, like I'm going to be cool now

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Speaker 1: because I want everybody like me, or at least feel

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Speaker 1: like I belong. And part of that, I think is,

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Speaker 1: you know, the isolation of homeschooling and and what that

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Speaker 1: does to your own psyche. You know, we really haven't

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Speaker 1: had the chance to, you know, exchange and be a

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Speaker 1: part of a regular day life of a kid. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: or find out who you are and what you what

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Speaker 1: you like and don't like because the only thing you

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Speaker 1: have is what's spoon fed to you by you're slightly

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Speaker 1: insane parents. I believe that you told me a story

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Speaker 1: that she shared with you about this a gay student

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Speaker 1: at the college. Tell us, tell tell us about it.

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Speaker 1: I don't know a lot about it. I know she

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Speaker 1: she gets a great kick and a giggle out of

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Speaker 1: the fact that there was this gay kid and she

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Speaker 1: talked to him into having sex with her so that

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Speaker 1: she could show me wasn't gay, or so that she

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Speaker 1: could just so that she could do it again. Manipulation.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe if I can get this gay

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Speaker 1: kid to have sex with me, that's an accomplishment, and

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Speaker 1: she did. There's more to the story. I heard from

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Speaker 1: her boyfriend at the time in college where she came back,

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Speaker 1: that she took him. She took him side of the

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Speaker 1: rehearsal space they were in a in a show together,

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Speaker 1: and brought him back to I guess the dorm apartment whatever.

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Speaker 1: And they did, in fact have got conjugal visit, but

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Speaker 1: it didn't go so well. And supposedly she came back

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Speaker 1: to set and ridiculed him in front of the cast

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Speaker 1: to the point where he left the school. That would

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Speaker 1: make sense. Yeah, I mean, well, he's gay and that's

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Speaker 1: she's religious. That's wrong, you know, well because God, because

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Speaker 1: it's murder, okay, but being gay that it's ungodly. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, I have to wonder when you have a

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Speaker 1: family that's so structured and the whole idea of faith

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Speaker 1: and leading the good life of a Christian is just

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Speaker 1: permeates their their everyday existence. Right. But yet she finds

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Speaker 1: out that the reason why they're not well off and

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Speaker 1: quite frankly, always struggling for money is because the father's

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Speaker 1: spending his paychecks on prostitutes and gambling. That's got to

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Speaker 1: make you hate your father, or hate man, or or

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Speaker 1: hate the idea of being poor because of a man.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel like that in some way had some

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Speaker 1: bearing on some of her behavior and choice. I think

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Speaker 1: that rose her father up a few notches in her eyes, really,

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Speaker 1: how so, because she has no respect for anybody or

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Speaker 1: anything normal. So I think her father doing that made

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Speaker 1: her go, cool, look what he's doing, because she thinks

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Speaker 1: her mom's a moron, Because her mother just is nothing

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Speaker 1: but Jesus all day long. I mean, there's posted notes

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Speaker 1: all over the house, and the Jesus pillows and Jesus

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Speaker 1: did this and pictures on the wall, and her dad said,

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Speaker 1: enough of that, I'm going to go have fun. And

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Speaker 1: I think she liked that. I think she respects. So

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Speaker 1: the rebellious act is what she approved of. Yeah, yeah that. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Now didn't he at one point actually have an extra

316
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Speaker 1: marital affair that Marian found out that tell us about

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Speaker 1: How did you learn about that? Um? She told me

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Speaker 1: about it, and she said that her mother found notes

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Speaker 1: in the glove box or someplace something like that, and

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Speaker 1: but she she was never angry with him. She wasn't like,

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Speaker 1: I can't believe he would do something like that. She

322
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:20,760
Speaker 1: were just talking about that's what my dad did. Not

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Speaker 1: my mother is really upset. Uh, let's go steal something,

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Speaker 1: you know. It was just a matter of fact. Yeah,

325
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Speaker 1: I didn't really bother her. So if it didn't have

326
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Speaker 1: to do with her, it didn't bother her. How did

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Speaker 1: you first meet Rachel Buffett Um? I was working at

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Speaker 1: Medieval Times and uh, she came to work at Medival

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Speaker 1: Times as a princess um and I had been dating

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Speaker 1: one of the other princesses and uh that was falling apart,

331
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Speaker 1: and then Rachel came worked this. So I called her

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Speaker 1: one night and said, do you want to get together

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Speaker 1: and have coffee or something? And she said she was

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Speaker 1: out with her brother or her brothers, I don't forget what,

335
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,439
Speaker 1: but when they get back. Sure. So she met me

336
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,400
Speaker 1: at a coffee shop, um, down here in Orange County

337
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:07,080
Speaker 1: because it was a long drive home for me, so

338
00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,080
Speaker 1: I would often stay down here. And we sat there

339
00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:14,000
Speaker 1: talking forever, and I remember we were talking about acting.

340
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Speaker 1: We were talking about medival time, so what it was

341
00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,479
Speaker 1: our place it is? And we were talking about uh,

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00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:21,680
Speaker 1: she had worked for Disney, what it was our place

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Speaker 1: that was? And just as we were getting ready to

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Speaker 1: part for the evening, she says to me, oh, by

345
00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,280
Speaker 1: the way, just you should know that if you're going

346
00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:35,440
Speaker 1: to become friends with me that, um, you may be

347
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,959
Speaker 1: investigated by the FBI and and and polices, police forces

348
00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:44,040
Speaker 1: and things like this. And I said, well, why is that?

349
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,840
Speaker 1: She's well, I had something happened, I said, what did

350
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,040
Speaker 1: you do, sud No, I didn't do anything, but my

351
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,639
Speaker 1: ex fiance did something and I don't I don't want

352
00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:54,280
Speaker 1: to talk about it, but just so you know that

353
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,920
Speaker 1: that could happen, I said, okay. So good night. We laughed.

354
00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:03,080
Speaker 1: So let me started seeing each other more, and I

355
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,080
Speaker 1: kept asking, what what is it? What? What did he does?

356
00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:08,480
Speaker 1: The drug dealer? No, no, no, no, what what what

357
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:13,040
Speaker 1: does it? And finally didn't know. I had no idea.

358
00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:17,480
Speaker 1: And finally with that, I said, so, come on about

359
00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,680
Speaker 1: your experiency. What is he like? An AX murder or what?

360
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:22,520
Speaker 1: And her face her and a D shades have read

361
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,240
Speaker 1: and she said, we need to talk, and I okay,

362
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:28,200
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, oh my god, he's an AX murder.

363
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,520
Speaker 1: So he met for dinner. She told me the whole

364
00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,199
Speaker 1: her version of the whole story, and my job was

365
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:38,600
Speaker 1: on the ground, I thought, and it works. I thought, oh,

366
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:46,800
Speaker 1: your poor thing, Oh my god, that that she was

367
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,119
Speaker 1: engaged to be married to this guy, and that nothing

368
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,679
Speaker 1: he was leading a complete double life, and everything he

369
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,480
Speaker 1: said was a lie, and she believed it all because

370
00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,720
Speaker 1: she was madly in love with him. And then all

371
00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:01,959
Speaker 1: of us sudden he had murdered her friends and she

372
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,800
Speaker 1: couldn't believe. And I'm thinking, oh my god, this is terrible.

373
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Speaker 1: That lasted for a while, and the more we talked

374
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,679
Speaker 1: and the more I learned, the more I realized that

375
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:17,520
Speaker 1: story isn't quite the way it happened. There's a little

376
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,680
Speaker 1: more to it than that. And oh my god, I

377
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:25,000
Speaker 1: think you killed people. Pardon me, you know, but it happens.

378
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:31,880
Speaker 1: So because honestly, she is can be pretty good at

379
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:37,639
Speaker 1: that Disney princess, big blue eyed, looking up at you

380
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,280
Speaker 1: with all the innocence in the world. For a while,

381
00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:45,200
Speaker 1: I think in passing it works. But when you start

382
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,280
Speaker 1: to see the pattern and you start to put together

383
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,159
Speaker 1: with all the other stuff, and you go, oh, this

384
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,399
Speaker 1: is and it works for like a short stint, a

385
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,800
Speaker 1: sound bite that if you're on anything longer, like a

386
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,959
Speaker 1: Dr Phil show. Eventually, when she had her press conference

387
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,920
Speaker 1: after when she was arrested November, when she was finally

388
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,360
Speaker 1: released and they had a little press conference in front

389
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:08,960
Speaker 1: of the jail and and uh, you know, she was

390
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 1: batting away there and just you know, oh my gosh,

391
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,760
Speaker 1: I'm innocent. And Noah was there, you know, caressing her.

392
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 1: And that's as we'll talk about that in a minute.

393
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,360
Speaker 1: But that evening she was telling friends I've interviewed those

394
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 1: friends and they and that she said to instead of

395
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 1: being like just for Loren that you know, you're about

396
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:34,520
Speaker 1: to marry this psychotic right, instead she's telling all her friends.

397
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:39,120
Speaker 1: Do you hear them? They're calling me an actress? Oh

398
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:45,119
Speaker 1: my god. Yeah, that's was her overwriting statement about all

399
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,360
Speaker 1: of the press that she was getting from that day

400
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:51,639
Speaker 1: because now she's famous, right wow. And even when she

401
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,199
Speaker 1: was on Dr Phil, he made some comment about you

402
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,440
Speaker 1: know that sounds of rehearse. Now you are an actress,

403
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 1: so we have to be aware of that, and you

404
00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,359
Speaker 1: might be a very good actress that she recoiled like

405
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 1: in this like kitten like you know, posture, just smiling

406
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 1: ear to ear like That's all we're talking about here, right,

407
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,439
Speaker 1: is that that you could be a good actress. You know,

408
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:17,120
Speaker 1: That's that's really not the that's not the headline, right,

409
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 1: you know, but you're talking about her, so it's good.

410
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:23,879
Speaker 1: As long as you're talking about her, it's all good.

411
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:28,680
Speaker 1: It's all wonderful. So after you heard that story or

412
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 1: what you thought was the real story, you you felt

413
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:36,639
Speaker 1: for her. Yeah, I mean she was a victim in

414
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,880
Speaker 1: all this, you know, and tragic and horrible. Does someone

415
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 1: so young and pretty and cute and just innocent and

416
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 1: sweet would be subjected to this horrible murdering? I mean

417
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 1: I bought it, and I think I'm a pretty shrewd guy,

418
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 1: but I'm not sure I was thinking properly. So I

419
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:06,639
Speaker 1: bought it. I thought, wow, so you were going to, yeah,

420
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 1: be her protector and sure that you know, there's a

421
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,399
Speaker 1: there's a whole wonderful world out there, come out, ride horses,

422
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 1: have a good time. Yeah. So it's just slowly. It

423
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,959
Speaker 1: was started with the stealing, and started with the drinking,

424
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:28,680
Speaker 1: and then the stealing stuff, and then the pride in

425
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 1: in the strangest things. At one point we were just

426
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 1: casually dating. At this point, she got all excited because

427
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 1: she gets a free trip to Vegas. I said, how

428
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:39,679
Speaker 1: are you getting a free trip to Vegas? And there

429
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 1: was some guy was gonna take her to Vegas. Yeah yeah,

430
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 1: And I said, well that's not quite free. I don't

431
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,439
Speaker 1: think he's taken it there for free. Well, you know,

432
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,439
Speaker 1: we'll see what happens. I don't have to do anything.

433
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 1: So she goes to and we're texting and she took

434
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 1: her friend along on her friend is Kelly is just

435
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 1: another bizarre Is that Kelly Fleming? I don't know her

436
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 1: real name, like Kerosene Kelly. I think that's Kelly Fleming

437
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:15,679
Speaker 1: And she's man, what um, just a huge enabler, huge

438
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:21,199
Speaker 1: enabler and has some strange she she would take her

439
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 1: to lesbian clubs. Yeah, and Rachel insisted, well, she's not gay.

440
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 1: I said, why, why why would she be taking you

441
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:36,400
Speaker 1: to lesbian clubs? Well, just I mean to show off.

442
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:40,199
Speaker 1: So that's why it didn't make any sense. And now

443
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 1: I'm going to think, well, maybe she's not the sweet

444
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 1: and maybe she's just remarkably stupid. And then I slowly realized, no,

445
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 1: she's not stupid either. She liked being shown on because

446
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 1: it was all about her. So her friend, who insists

447
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,360
Speaker 1: to her, look, I am not gay. I just want

448
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 1: to take you to this club and show you off

449
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 1: as my girlfriend will pretend it's like the trophy girl,

450
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 1: the trophy wife. Yeah, I don't know. It was the

451
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 1: most bizarre. So she takes her with her to Vegas.

452
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 1: I don't think this guy thinks he's got it made.

453
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 1: Now he's gonna go home. Probably did. So we're taking

454
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 1: and she texted something to me about, well, you know,

455
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 1: I had to thank him last night. What what are

456
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 1: you a prostitute? This is the most bizarre thing. So

457
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 1: she comes back and she tells me I've been in

458
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 1: tears for two days. I can't believe you would think

459
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,640
Speaker 1: that of me. I said, wait a minute. You went

460
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: to Vegas with some guy, you said, kind of creep

461
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 1: you out, but you had sex with him in exchange

462
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 1: for being taken to Vegas. And you're upset that someone

463
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:56,159
Speaker 1: would consider that prostitution. Are you serious? So there's a

464
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,719
Speaker 1: preamble to that story. Okay, well I'd love to know

465
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 1: the preamble to that story. James Mulligan told me that,

466
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 1: you know, he's a fantastic artist. I mean, truly does

467
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 1: all this Disney art. And and I guess one of

468
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: his clients was a church, a local church, and he

469
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,479
Speaker 1: they asked him to do the like the Nativity scene

470
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: in one of the walls on the on the church.

471
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 1: And so he's, you know, painting the whole scene, the

472
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 1: whole Nativity, Baby Jesus and all. And and she walks

473
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 1: in with a fifth of vodka. And she walks down

474
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 1: the aisle and what heads over to him? And he said,

475
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:41,199
Speaker 1: before he knew it, there she was down on him

476
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:45,479
Speaker 1: doing a little a little number that he said, I

477
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:51,439
Speaker 1: did color outside of the lines. At that point, you know,

478
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 1: I'm just the juxtaposition of this, you know, very religious scene, right,

479
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,199
Speaker 1: one of the most religious scenes. And there she is

480
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 1: doing what she's doing. I said, oh my gosh, Well

481
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: the dichotomy is he's not lost, it's okay. She She's

482
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: at my place one night and she wakes up. It's

483
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 1: probably two or three in the morning, and she says,

484
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:21,239
Speaker 1: I feel an evil presence. And by that time I

485
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 1: was starting to think maybe it's you. So I feel

486
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,719
Speaker 1: an evil presence. I said, I'm sorry. What would she

487
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 1: like to do about it? And she said, do you

488
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,360
Speaker 1: mind how I put on some praise music? And I said,

489
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 1: I think I'm fresh out of praise music. I don't

490
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,959
Speaker 1: think I am. She said, well, I'm getting on your computer.

491
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 1: I said, go ahead, whatever, you go ahead. She gets

492
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: up and she goes to my laptop and she somehow

493
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: hooks up the thing and next thing I know, you know,

494
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 1: the laptops. Our God is an awesome God, he reads,

495
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: and she climbs back in bed and goes down. I mean,

496
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 1: we have sex to our God is an awesome God.

497
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: I guess that's what she needs. That's it gets her going.

498
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: My word, nothing makes you hot like Jesus. I don't know,

499
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: it's just bizarre. It's bizarre. Didn't you tell me? Also

500
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: you had to cover up? Oh yeah, that was another

501
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 1: she said. And she just comes out to this stuff

502
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: out of nowhere. She says to me, I can't come

503
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: out to your home anymore. At this one, she was

504
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: coming out very regularly, and I said, hey, why not?

505
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: She said, well, you have dragons all over the place,

506
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: and I like medieval stuff, so I've got different like

507
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 1: ceramic and the resident little dragon sculpture of things. You know, well,

508
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 1: she said, I said, well, what what does that have

509
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 1: to do anything? She said, well, they represent Satan. Know,

510
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: they represent dragons. What are you talking about? She said, well,

511
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: dragon dragons are often used to represent Satan because they're

512
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: serpent like. And said, okay, well these don't these represent

513
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: medieval you know, n slang dragons that it's just dragons.

514
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: It's it's okay, But no, I can't come out there anymore.

515
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: I said, okay. So I had some little dragons coming

516
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: and some of these little swords. So I put the

517
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 1: little swords by the little dragon. Said there, I've killed

518
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 1: all the dragons. Can you come out now? And she says, no,

519
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 1: you have to. You have to take them on down

520
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 1: I said, well, I'm not gonna take them down. So

521
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: that's that's the end of that. And about two days

522
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: later she said, are you going to take me home

523
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 1: after the show? I said, they're dragons. There'll be dragons

524
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: out there, and she said it's okay. I said, okay,

525
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 1: good bizarre bizarre stuff and everything relates back to God,

526
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: to Jesus, to religion, to the whole upbringing that she

527
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: straight so far from ambassardized so much, but she she

528
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: hangs onto it. Well, she pulls it back in when

529
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: she needs it, right, yeah, oh yeah, well yeah. She

530
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: her current boyfriend worked with us at the castle. All

531
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 1: three of us worked at medival times, and he's a

532
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: pastor son, and they would quote scripture to each other

533
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: and they would talk about Billy Elliot. He shows up

534
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: in court a lot. He shows up with like scriptures,

535
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: needle pointed in his shirt. Yeah, well, you know he's

536
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: a good Christian, he said. He has some interesting tattoos. Yeah,

537
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: he's got some lovely and now I'm not often alone

538
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 1: with men when they're naked, but um, at medival times,

539
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: everyone kind of gets dressed in the same area. He's

540
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: got some lovely nipple piercings and uh and his crotch

541
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: reads raw Dog. Editor's note. I had no idea what

542
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: raw Dog meant, but my editor sure did. Well, it's

543
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 1: locker room talk. It's a guy who has sex without

544
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 1: a condom. Really, yeah, that's it. So I mean, but

545
00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: it's I think it says raw dog. For Jesus, No,

546
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 1: I'm just kidding. It doesn't say that. So there was

547
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: a point in time in her life where she was

548
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,959
Speaker 1: heavily involved in drugs, and it was certainly during the

549
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: times of the murder and soon after the murders that

550
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: she uh, you know, she was getting getting crystal meth

551
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: and ecstasy from all of her her friends. And I

552
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 1: don't know if she shared that with you or not,

553
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: but that was definitely a part of their life. Yeah,

554
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 1: she talked about it. Yeah, she talked about the numb

555
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 1: feeling and how much she liked the numb feeling. And

556
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: and I remember that stuck in my because she was

557
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 1: talking about she was almost intimating that you could do

558
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: anything while you're feeling like that because you don't have

559
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: any feelings of responsibility or any any guilt, any anything.

560
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking, was that when you planned this stuff

561
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 1: then did it all make sense while you were that

562
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: messed up? You know, I don't know because I don't understand, right,

563
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 1: I don't get it. But I mean, I've been told

564
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: by people. I've I've never done these drugs either, but

565
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 1: I've been told by people when you are on crystal meth,

566
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: you could murder your own grandmother. You know, I mean

567
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 1: that you have you have no soul anymore. You just

568
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: don't care, Like you said that, there's just no remorse,

569
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: there's no nothing, there's no your numb and and what's

570
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: amazing to me is as numb as she is in

571
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 1: everyday life, I can't imagine how empty she would be

572
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 1: with some chemical help. I mean, that's really scary, it

573
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 1: really is. That's a frightening thing, you know. You I

574
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 1: think you've said to me before something about her eyes.

575
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: There's nothing there. I honestly, I the last the last

576
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: few months of dating were more like research because I

577
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 1: thought I should write a screenplay about this, and I

578
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 1: was gonna call it empty because she is soulless. You

579
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 1: can look at it and there's nothing there. They might

580
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 1: light up if you're talking about something she's excited about

581
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: at the moment that about her. But for the most part,

582
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 1: they're they're empty. There's nothing there, and that's normal. That's

583
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,320
Speaker 1: when she's sober so and you can see it. You

584
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 1: can see it in the interviews. You know what you

585
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,919
Speaker 1: can see in a Disney cartoon. Obviously, there's nothing there.

586
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 1: It's it's a one dimensional there. It is. That's what

587
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 1: they look like. And it fools you for a minute

588
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 1: because it looks like a Disney cartoon. But look at

589
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,320
Speaker 1: a closer realized this is a live, actual human being

590
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: and it looks like a one dimensional Disney cartoon. And

591
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 1: she was a she was she was a Disney princess.

592
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 1: She had sex with Daniel in the shell, know aerial

593
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,919
Speaker 1: shell at Disneyland. She was very proud of that, very

594
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 1: proud of that. And she also stole from there. She

595
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,759
Speaker 1: was bad about that because there's such security there, but

596
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 1: somehow she managed. That's what her boyfriend at the time,

597
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 1: Kyle Rubelle, was saying that. You know, he said the

598
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 1: same thing, I'll pay for it, don't steal it. And

599
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 1: yet she went off with a cousin of hers and

600
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 1: and came back all giggly because she was so proud

601
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 1: of herself. Yeah, yeah, that's quite the accomplishment. Amazing, right, Yeah, totally.

602
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: She also has an interesting relationship with her brother Noah.

603
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,799
Speaker 1: That's one way to put it. Yeah, it's a sick relationship.

604
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: It really is. Tell us why you think so? Um, God,

605
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: several several things. One of them is the the codependency

606
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 1: when it comes to drinking. And finally, at one point

607
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 1: I told her, look, I'm not ever going to meet

608
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 1: you in a bar again. This is never gonna happen again,

609
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 1: so I'm not doing it. So that's it. And one

610
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 1: night I get out of work. She wasn't working as

611
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:48,800
Speaker 1: a princess that night, I was working at the castle.

612
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: I got out and there are all these messages from her,

613
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 1: please come to be. My brother's in trouble. I need help.

614
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: So I called her and said where are you? When

615
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: she named the bar and I said, no, I told

616
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 1: you I'm not coming to the bar. So I don't

617
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: know what to do. He's crazy. I said, I'll come

618
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: get you out of the bar, but I'm not hanging around,

619
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: and she said okay. So I went over there and

620
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 1: there she sits with Noah and he's crying and she's

621
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: crying and they're both just sloppy drunk, and I said, okay, well,

622
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 1: let's go and we'll talk about it. So what is this?

623
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: So we got I get him out to my car

624
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 1: and I said, what is going on? Well, Noah's girlfriend

625
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 1: had gotten pregnant. So he's trying to decide whether a

626
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: really sharp kick in the stomach we'll take care of it,

627
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 1: or if he needs to actually push her down some stairs.

628
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 1: Or Rachel's great idea, which is she can call I

629
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 1: think it was Kelly and get a whole box of

630
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 1: the Morning After pills and then grind those up and

631
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 1: put it in her food and oh dear on that stuff,

632
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 1: and surely that would cause her to spontaneously aboard. So

633
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,720
Speaker 1: and I said, well, okay, this whole thing is nuts.

634
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 1: I mean, where would you even get that? Rachel's Kelly,

635
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 1: and she brought him over. Did you have them now? Yes?

636
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 1: And I said no, have you even talked to her yet? Well,

637
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: she called me and she said she was pregny. I said,

638
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: but have you talked her about what she wants to do?

639
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,320
Speaker 1: Maybe she doesn't want to go through with the pregnancy.

640
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 1: Maybe it's all okay, maybe it's shouldn't you find that

641
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,839
Speaker 1: out first? And Rachel's just well, he's really upset and

642
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: he just found out about this, and I said, well,

643
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 1: don't humor him. For christ sake, you said about killing somebody.

644
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: What is wrong with you? So I took him home

645
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: and took her back to my place and said, this

646
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 1: is nuts. This is absolutely nuts. And the next day

647
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: the girl and Noah talked and she said, you know,

648
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 1: I don't want to have a baby, and he said, okay,

649
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 1: well we'll take care of it. That that was it.

650
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 1: But he's getting ready to kill her. What the he?

651
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 1: How is that a plan? Even? How was that even planed? B?

652
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: I don't know plan B. That's very good. I saw

653
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 1: what she did there. So and then shortly after so

654
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: this got me talking about Noah more because now I'm

655
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 1: I'm just fanded. And then she starts, you go deep, well,

656
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,760
Speaker 1: so to speak, and she starts talking about how small

657
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 1: Noah's penis is. And after the third or fourth reference,

658
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 1: I said, how do you know? And she said, I quote,

659
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 1: somebody's got to teach him what to do with it.

660
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,760
Speaker 1: Did you infer that she had sex with her brother

661
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:44,839
Speaker 1: from that statement? Yeah? Pretty strongly? Yeah? Yeah? And did

662
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: she sort of give you that indication that she did

663
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 1: have sex. What was she teaching him? I think so, yeah,

664
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 1: because who better than her? She's brilliant. She really said that,

665
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,760
Speaker 1: That's what she said. Then she refused to discuss it anymore.

666
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,439
Speaker 1: So did you follow up with are you telling me

667
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 1: that you've had oh? Yeah, yeah, and she said, I

668
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 1: don't want I'm not going to talk about this. I'm

669
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: not going to talk about this, which was her standard

670
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 1: m O, which is to drop the bomb and then

671
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 1: say I'm not going to talk about this. In every instance,

672
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 1: when you saw Noah and Rachel together, did you get

673
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: the feeling like it was beyond a normal brother sister relationships? Yeah?

674
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 1: And I asked her about it, um and she said, well,

675
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 1: you you don't know, you don't have a sister. I said, well, no,

676
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 1: I don't, but I mean it's you know, it's kind

677
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 1: of weird. No, it's not. It's perfectly normal. What did

678
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 1: you think of their relationship on Dr Phil? It was creepy.

679
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: What was really creepy to me is why he was

680
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 1: wearing a black knit hat on Dr Phil. I'd never

681
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: seen that before. I didn't see him a lot, but

682
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 1: I saw him occasionally went to the wine bar or

683
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:52,320
Speaker 1: whatever it is that he had a few times, and

684
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 1: I saw him at his house and you know, with

685
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 1: the family though. The whole thing about the man with

686
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,800
Speaker 1: the black hat, I know, and that was the basis

687
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: for one of Rachel's felony charges. This man in a

688
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 1: black hat that she repeated as the last person to

689
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 1: be with Sam and he was made up right, and

690
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 1: he chooses to go on Dr Phil wearing a weird

691
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:22,879
Speaker 1: knit black hat. It was a very strange thing. I

692
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 1: don't know if he was going to try to it

693
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:26,959
Speaker 1: looked to me he was going to try to set

694
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 1: up some alibi thing where she was said, you know

695
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 1: what I saw. No, that's what made me think of it. No,

696
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 1: always where is this black hat? That's how bizarre and calculated,

697
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,840
Speaker 1: but stupidly calculating. I mean, if you look at the murders,

698
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 1: the plot, the plan, the conspiracy is so stupid. It's

699
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 1: so stupid that only they could have planned it. I

700
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 1: firmly believed she helped plan that. So you're at this point,

701
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 1: are you sed an item? Are you still together? That

702
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:07,760
Speaker 1: was really late and at that point I'm really trying

703
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 1: to find out what in the hell did she murder

704
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 1: these people? I'm thinking, maybe he's completely innocent, and she

705
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 1: did it. I know, I'm going, what the hell she's

706
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,399
Speaker 1: plotting with her brother. She's her brother is talking about

707
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 1: maybe kicking her in the stomach, throwing her down some stairs,

708
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 1: that causing her board. She's talking about killing her. So

709
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 1: I thought, well, okay, did at one point you feel

710
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 1: like you were in crazy town? Oh yeah, it was

711
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 1: definitely crazy town toward the end, definitely crazy town. It was.

712
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 1: It was kind of a kick, it was kind of

713
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 1: I'm just fast. Yeah, I want to know now. But

714
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 1: the final straw was driving her home drunk and she's

715
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 1: sleeping in my lap because I said she likes to

716
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 1: cuddle Chris like a little kitten, you know, which is

717
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 1: very sweet. So we're driving home after singing karaoke and

718
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 1: having a good time up until you know, she's incoherent

719
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,879
Speaker 1: and she snuggles up on my lap and I'm really thinking,

720
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:17,280
Speaker 1: this is, this has gotten just nuts. This probably should

721
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: end soon. This is I'm not sure this is worth it.

722
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:24,439
Speaker 1: Even even even the old man with the pretty young

723
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 1: thing is going just don't think it's worth it anymore.

724
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: And she starts mumbling in her sleep. So I'm driving

725
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: and I said, what did you say? And she reaches

726
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 1: up with a fist and smacks me really hard in

727
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 1: the chest and says, I told you to burn the body.

728
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:52,800
Speaker 1: And I just kept drying, what do you? What the hell?

729
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 1: So little later, what did you say? Nothing? She's out?

730
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:02,279
Speaker 1: How many times did she say it? Just once? And

731
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 1: then she was out. So we got home and the

732
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,479
Speaker 1: next morning I said, do you know what you said

733
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,319
Speaker 1: to me last night? But the next morning you're not

734
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 1: right away right, You're cooking this elaborate breakfast yea, which

735
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 1: I found quite fascinating, like French sometimes breakfast, I know,

736
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 1: but it was like French eggs and yeah, and some

737
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 1: hash browns and some sliced avocado. I mean talking about

738
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 1: fresh ruttle Stephen King moment. Well, I wanted her to

739
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 1: be comfortable because you knew you were going. Oh, I

740
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 1: have to ask about this. I think you even said

741
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 1: to me you knew that was going to be the

742
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: last breakfast. This is it. It's kind of like the

743
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:53,799
Speaker 1: last supper, example is the last breakfast. And and I said,

744
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 1: do you know what you said last night? And we're

745
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: sitting out I have this little patio area outside. I

746
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:00,080
Speaker 1: don't smoking the smoke out there. You know. Let's you

747
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: were having a little outside, finished the breakfast, some coffee.

748
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 1: Do you know what you said to me listening? So

749
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 1: this is now outside, Yeah, in like a cabata Yeah

750
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 1: where that? Yeah? Okay? And she said no, what And

751
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 1: I said, well, you hit me and you said I

752
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 1: told you to burn the body. And she said, I

753
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 1: did not say that. I said, yeah you did. No,

754
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 1: I said you should have burned the body. I'm thinking, oh,

755
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 1: you you know that. You said something in your sleep first.

756
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:41,279
Speaker 1: It's so bad. I know, it's so bad. When she's trapped,

757
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: it just falls apart. It's just awful. And I said, no, no,

758
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:48,799
Speaker 1: you didn't say about what I should have done or

759
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,799
Speaker 1: what I could have done. You said you told me

760
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 1: to burn the body. Did you think I was damn

761
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 1: last night? I don't want to talk about it. That's it.

762
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 1: That's what you can't talk about anymore. And it really

763
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 1: just ended there. It certainly sounds that this outbursts that

764
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 1: you're telling us about Scott was in fact Rachel thinking

765
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 1: she was instructing Dan what to do with Sam's body, because,

766
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:23,320
Speaker 1: after all, Dan left Sam's lifeless body in the theater

767
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 1: attic and for her to make that comment to you.

768
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 1: Scott tells me that perhaps she and Dan spoke about

769
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 1: burning the body because maybe Dan told her about the

770
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 1: incinerator that was located in a building behind the theater, right,

771
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 1: And the theater was located on a military base, and

772
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 1: the building behind the theater was in fact a military hospital,

773
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 1: and oftentimes are brave soldiers didn't come back in one piece,

774
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 1: and their body parts were sent to the morgue and

775
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 1: in fact incinerated. And there was this incinerator that Jeff Hathcock,

776
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: who was the owner of the theater at Liberty Theater

777
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 1: at the time, did show Dan this. He Dan was

778
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 1: always fascinated with the macabre, and and I think it

779
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 1: was Halloween when he gave him a tour of the

780
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 1: morgue and pointed out the incinerator. So they obviously had

781
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,880
Speaker 1: this conversation. Because the idea of suggesting to burn the

782
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,799
Speaker 1: body makes me feel like she knew she knew about

783
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 1: the incinerator. She went to visit the theater many times,

784
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: but certainly the one visit that stands out to me

785
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 1: is the visit that she and Dan made two nights

786
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 1: before the murders. So all of this makes sense, and

787
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: your story makes sense. So one morning she gets a

788
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:51,359
Speaker 1: call and she I think I was in the shower.

789
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:54,359
Speaker 1: She's very upsetting at what's going on, and she said,

790
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 1: the police want to talk to me again. This was

791
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 1: March because they were most of Pina. So she said, well,

792
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 1: they're coming here. I said, okay. So they came and

793
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 1: they met her in the parking lot and I walked

794
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 1: down with her and they said you you can't be here,

795
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: they to you. Yeah, So I walked to the other

796
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 1: side of the parking lot. Okay, whatever, and they were

797
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 1: talking to her and talking to her forever. I'm thinking,

798
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 1: I gotta check out, and I look over and one

799
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 1: of them reaches into his pocket and pulls out rubber gloves,

800
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 1: and then he reached another public and he's doing a

801
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 1: freaking DNA swab in her mouth in the middle of

802
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 1: the parking lot. You know, I'm oh, my god, what

803
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 1: the hell? So after they left us, what what was

804
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 1: that all about? She said, well, there's a box of evidence,

805
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:43,840
Speaker 1: and they keep asking me if there's any way my

806
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 1: DNA could be in that box, and I told them no.

807
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:48,240
Speaker 1: So they asked if they could do a DNA swab

808
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 1: that was me thinking they think she has something to

809
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 1: do with this. But you had never contacted the authorities.

810
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: Why why did you feel like you didn't want to

811
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 1: I didn't know anything. Well, I told you to burn

812
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:09,319
Speaker 1: the body is a big I can't that's not going

813
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: to be admissible anywhere. There's nothing I can do with him. Yeah,

814
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 1: but you should. I don't know. I would have thought

815
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 1: you would have let them decide that. I would think

816
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:20,280
Speaker 1: that you would want to tell somebody, but you know

817
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 1: you didn't want to tell, maybe because you still wanted

818
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 1: to date her. Well, is that the truth? Are we

819
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,759
Speaker 1: getting the truth? I wanted to know. I wanted to know.

820
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:35,360
Speaker 1: I wanted to know. You wanted to know before you

821
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 1: were absolute and you felt it might take a few

822
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 1: more times. Yeah, And look, if I go to the

823
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:43,880
Speaker 1: police and say, hey, this girl was drunk and she

824
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 1: said this, they're gonna go, wow, that's interesting. What they

825
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 1: canna do with it? You just didn't You didn't think

826
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 1: it was enough. No, it's it's not even when I

827
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 1: when I did tell the police, but I was gonna say,

828
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:56,439
Speaker 1: you did at something and tell the police. So let's

829
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 1: talk about that. When did that? Because didn't you go

830
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:02,800
Speaker 1: to see them in Costa Mesa. They came and met me. Yeah,

831
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 1: at the Starbucks across the street from from Medival times.

832
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:10,359
Speaker 1: Now did they come to me after they saw you

833
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 1: march at at that motel? Yeah, it was much later

834
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 1: than that, so they knew you existed and they want

835
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:17,239
Speaker 1: to learn more. So what did they ask you? How

836
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 1: was that exchange? I told them that that was what

837
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 1: I led with because I'm like, you know, she has

838
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 1: something to do with it. She at least the second murder,

839
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 1: because she knew before the second murder that the first

840
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:33,799
Speaker 1: murder had taken place, or else she couldn't have told

841
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 1: him to burn the body. They called actually the d

842
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:39,359
Speaker 1: A after they met with you and said we've got

843
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 1: it now, I mean this, this has got to be

844
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:43,759
Speaker 1: the thing that takes us over the top here that

845
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,399
Speaker 1: we can charge you with murder. And he said no,

846
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 1: because you were an X and maybe you had an

847
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:52,399
Speaker 1: AX to grind and yeah, so that I didn't think

848
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:54,360
Speaker 1: that it's gonna be, he said. She said she had

849
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:58,279
Speaker 1: never said such a thing. You know, right, are you're

850
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 1: gonna get anywhere with that? But I mean, if all

851
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 1: of your other stories are pretty accurate and pan out,

852
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 1: why would you make this one up? Right, from everything

853
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 1: I gathered from all the interviews I did with people

854
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 1: that knew Rachel, they said she had a wild jealous streak.

855
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 1: So this is just a theory. But I did speak

856
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 1: with Dave Bernhard, who was a neighbor at the Camden

857
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:28,440
Speaker 1: martiniques and someone that hung out with Dan and Rachel

858
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 1: quite a bit up until the murders, and he did

859
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 1: share with me that he cared deeply for Julie. He

860
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:38,399
Speaker 1: did have a huge crush on Rachel. He didn't feel

861
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,360
Speaker 1: like it was necessarily going anywhere, that it might have been,

862
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 1: you know, a one sided thing, but he definitely wanted

863
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 1: to nail her, just wasn't going anywhere. But Julie he

864
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:52,239
Speaker 1: really cared about. He said that really developed from a friendship,

865
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 1: like she was a genuine person and he really cared

866
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:59,319
Speaker 1: about her. They ended up consummating that relationship two nights

867
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 1: before she was and I have to wonder if somehow

868
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 1: Dave had a conversation with Rachel about that, because he

869
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 1: really did want to have a relationship with Rachel, and

870
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:17,879
Speaker 1: I think that might have been a way to make

871
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 1: her jealous, and maybe that's how we thought he could

872
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:25,480
Speaker 1: get her and Rachel finding out about that right, because

873
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 1: Rachel was the kind of person that didn't want any

874
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,839
Speaker 1: other woman to get any kind of attention, and she

875
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 1: wanted Dave's attention, but she wanted to have it under

876
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:38,840
Speaker 1: her control on her terms, and so she would do

877
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:41,840
Speaker 1: things in front of Dave at his Taco Tuesday party

878
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:44,320
Speaker 1: like watch this, Watch this, I'm going to get Daniel

879
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 1: to kiss another guy, and I'm going to tell him

880
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 1: I'm not going to go home and have sex with

881
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:50,840
Speaker 1: him unless you know, and he would do it and

882
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:54,839
Speaker 1: actually told she told you that so too. Yeah, And

883
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:57,759
Speaker 1: so I'm just wondering if Dave Barnhard thought I'll give

884
00:51:57,760 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 1: her a little bit of her own medicine, and so

885
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:02,799
Speaker 1: A four, I'm gonna tell her I have this relationship

886
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 1: with Julie. And you know, it's a theory. It might

887
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 1: not be the way it really happened, but knowing Rachel,

888
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 1: after speaking to people like yourself who knew her firsthand,

889
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:18,240
Speaker 1: it just seems like it would be something that would

890
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 1: incite a target. And if you're a murdering one, why

891
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:27,280
Speaker 1: not to And and Julie was like, I mean, sadly,

892
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:29,279
Speaker 1: as her mother said in court. I mean she was

893
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 1: a prop or actually was a brother Taka that said

894
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:35,839
Speaker 1: that on the Witnes stand, you killed my sister so

895
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:39,880
Speaker 1: that she could be a prop in your sick, demented play,

896
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:44,960
Speaker 1: you know, and that's the truth. That's really poorly written play.

897
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:52,200
Speaker 1: I'm convinced that she helped plan the whole thing at

898
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:56,839
Speaker 1: a minimum, probably for kicks, was involved with some of it.

899
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:04,359
Speaker 1: But I don't under stand why he doesn't rollover on her,

900
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 1: why he doesn't tell this story. I don't get it.

901
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:12,719
Speaker 1: I think that the reason for that is that he's

902
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:20,840
Speaker 1: protecting his brother Tim Ah. Okay, Tim, Tim's involved, but

903
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:25,440
Speaker 1: that's another She went to live with Tim for a

904
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:27,480
Speaker 1: while though after the murders, are for about a week

905
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 1: at the most, his girlfriend at the time, and that

906
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 1: did not make Lisa any happier. For sure. She she

907
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:40,279
Speaker 1: did not like Rachel, didn't care for her. And but

908
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:43,440
Speaker 1: Tim said to me he never saw anybody light a

909
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 1: pipe with you know, for the crystal meth better. I

910
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:49,360
Speaker 1: mean he said she was just an old pro. I

911
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 1: mean usually if you've never done it before, it kind

912
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 1: of involved yes, and he said, not her, Yeah, so

913
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 1: that just no, they're in fact, he said to me

914
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 1: that if she speaks out and says anything, that if

915
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 1: if if he goes down, she's going down, and that

916
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:11,799
Speaker 1: you know, told me a lot. Is he facing any

917
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 1: charges at all? He got a sweet deal he got

918
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:19,000
Speaker 1: he did. He got it because prosecutors were worried that

919
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 1: the defense counsel was going to come up with an

920
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:28,239
Speaker 1: insanity defense, and so they wanted Tim to say that

921
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:31,480
Speaker 1: there was nothing there in his past, that they had

922
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 1: this sort of bucolic life and and there was never

923
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:38,440
Speaker 1: any issues, mental issues, and and so they wanted to

924
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 1: make sure that they won this capital case, and so

925
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 1: they were willing to cut him a deal. And and he's, uh,

926
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:49,799
Speaker 1: he's laughing all the way. So but he feels like

927
00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 1: he got away with he got away with it, and

928
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 1: now we have to see what she gets away with.

929
00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:58,480
Speaker 1: And I think that you know, they are that is

930
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 1: the reason why he has not said anything against her.

931
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 1: I'm I'm pretty well, it seems like a pretty slam

932
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 1: dunk case. I know there is no such thing, but

933
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:13,879
Speaker 1: she blatantly lied and hopefully they'll, hopefully they can get

934
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:19,759
Speaker 1: her for at least that. Stay tuned. Yeah, exactly, if

935
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 1: you could sum up in one statement, what you'd like

936
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:29,719
Speaker 1: listeners to know about how you feel about Rachel Buffett.

937
00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 1: I sit here with you and we laugh a lot,

938
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:38,440
Speaker 1: because I laugh a lot, that's just my nature, and

939
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:47,919
Speaker 1: you're charming and funny. There's really nothing funny about it, Um,

940
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 1: and I I also laugh on him. Embarrassed. I'm embarrassed

941
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:56,080
Speaker 1: that that I didn't see through it sooner. I'm embarrassed

942
00:55:56,120 --> 00:56:00,479
Speaker 1: that I had stopped seeing her completely once I even

943
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:04,879
Speaker 1: began to think it was possible. UM. So I deal

944
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:09,799
Speaker 1: with that by laughing a lot. But it's obviously about

945
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,759
Speaker 1: as serious as it gets. And I love that you

946
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:16,319
Speaker 1: have the relationship that you do with Um Sam's father,

947
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 1: and I'm probably with Julie's parents as well. And the

948
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 1: last thing the world I would want is for them

949
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:27,839
Speaker 1: to hear this and go, what are they're laughing about?

950
00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:37,959
Speaker 1: It's not funny, and it's not. And I I've met

951
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 1: so many people in my life. I have been an

952
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:48,440
Speaker 1: actor almost my whole life, and just people of every description,

953
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 1: people of every every background, every every everything. There's so

954
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:58,279
Speaker 1: many different people. She is the single only person I've

955
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:02,400
Speaker 1: ever met that I think and we already talked about

956
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:13,000
Speaker 1: my feeling about religion. She is evil. It's like she's

957
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 1: an empty vessel. There's no soul, there's no compassion, there's

958
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:27,360
Speaker 1: no anything except ego and and a quest. It is

959
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 1: a quest. It's a quest to do evil. It would

960
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:35,840
Speaker 1: it's amazing to me to manipulate people to be the

961
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:39,240
Speaker 1: center of attention, which all actors want to be the

962
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:41,640
Speaker 1: center of attention. That's why I'm sitting here with you.

963
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 1: I want to be the center of attention. I won't

964
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:49,400
Speaker 1: kill somebody for it. I won't steal and laugh about

965
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:51,439
Speaker 1: it to someone who doesn't like stealing. I mean, it's

966
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:59,280
Speaker 1: she's she's evil. I don't know. That's all I can say.

967
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:03,800
Speaker 1: And I'm embara, and I apologize to anyone who would

968
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 1: be offended by that. Well, I I feel like I

969
00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:09,880
Speaker 1: could speak for Steve Hair at this moment. I know

970
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:13,360
Speaker 1: he would appreciate what you're saying. He also, though, finds

971
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:17,840
Speaker 1: humor in life to survive. I mean his sometimes I

972
00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 1: feel so guilty when he's making me laugh and I

973
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:22,160
Speaker 1: think I shouldn't be laughing, But he said, if you

974
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:25,320
Speaker 1: don't laugh, and you don't make me laugh, and then

975
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:29,880
Speaker 1: I'm really there's nothing left. Then I'm dead and so

976
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:35,120
Speaker 1: I think he feels humor is a panacea for for

977
00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:37,400
Speaker 1: the pain he lives with on a daily basis. And

978
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 1: Daniel Wozniak and if in fact she was involved with

979
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 1: these murders, Rachel Buffett and whoever else was involved with

980
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:49,520
Speaker 1: these martyrs took away his life, took away the kibi

981
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:55,400
Speaker 1: she's life. And poor Raquel Hair says, to this day

982
00:58:55,560 --> 00:59:00,760
Speaker 1: she prays, she prays for Daniel Wozniac, which is truly extraordinary,

983
00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:03,720
Speaker 1: but that's that's the woman she is. And so I

984
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 1: just want to thank you for all of them to

985
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:10,480
Speaker 1: come on today and be so honest and yeah we laugh,

986
00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:25,080
Speaker 1: but that's okay too. Thank you, thank you. On our

987
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:29,080
Speaker 1: next episode of Sleuth, we continue our exclusive interview with

988
00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:32,959
Speaker 1: Rachel Buffett's former boyfriend, Scott Erett, who had so many

989
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:36,280
Speaker 1: colorful memories of his two year relationship with the Disney

990
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:40,080
Speaker 1: princess that he called into Sleuth and shared additional bizarre

991
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:43,680
Speaker 1: experiences he had with the girl he met at medieval

992
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:47,480
Speaker 1: times where he and Rachel both worked. You can't make

993
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:50,520
Speaker 1: up what you will soon hear, because reality can be

994
00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:56,280
Speaker 1: stranger than fiction. If you enjoyed this episode of Sleuth,

995
00:59:56,720 --> 00:59:59,240
Speaker 1: share it with a friend and be sure to leave

996
00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:04,360
Speaker 1: a rating view. Follow Sleuth on iHeart Radio, or subscribe

997
01:00:04,360 --> 01:00:07,240
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to podcasts so that you never miss

998
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:08,000
Speaker 1: an episode.