Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. This is
Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday time
Speaker 1: for the Vault. Today's episode originally published December tenth. It's
Speaker 1: like a circle in a spiral. Part two. That's right.
Speaker 1: This is this is a fun one. So let's let's
Speaker 1: go ahead and uh and spin around. Welcome to Stuff
Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind, the production of My Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: Hey you, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My
Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're
Speaker 1: back with part two of our series about people spinning
Speaker 1: around in circles. That's right. Part one was was essentially
Speaker 1: a breakdown of of why we've why we feel dizzy
Speaker 1: when we spin around in circles, and then we we
Speaker 1: also went in just a little bit into the art
Speaker 1: of spinning around in circles, particularly as it relates to
Speaker 1: figure skaters and ballet dancers. Now, while figure skaters and
Speaker 1: ballet dancers, I would say regularly practice feats that that
Speaker 1: I am in awe of in terms of, you know,
Speaker 1: their athleticism and their ability to spin around and stuff
Speaker 1: and and still execute precise movements afterwards, I gotta say
Speaker 1: there's one thing that that maybe makes them not that impressive,
Speaker 1: which is, you know, they only spend for a few
Speaker 1: seconds at a time. What if you were to spin
Speaker 1: around in a dance performance that lasted for minutes and
Speaker 1: minutes on end, maybe hours, who knows. Yeah, And in
Speaker 1: this we're getting into the realm of of the whirling
Speaker 1: dervishes of of Sufi mysticism, the Sufi whirlers, uh that
Speaker 1: you find mostly isolated in in modern day Turkey, but
Speaker 1: in some other regions as well. And if you haven't
Speaker 1: seen footage of this and and certainly heard the corresponding music,
Speaker 1: I really encourage you to to check it out because
Speaker 1: it is. It is phenomenal. It is just to watch it.
Speaker 1: It's a very meditative experience I find. I've always found
Speaker 1: this very intriguing. I think, you know, I've seen some
Speaker 1: clips on TV at some point, and then back in
Speaker 1: the nineties, at one point, because I was getting increasingly
Speaker 1: into world music and into Dead Can dance and stuff,
Speaker 1: I picked up an album off Hemisphere Records titled Mevlana
Speaker 1: Music of the Whirling Dervishes, and and really I was
Speaker 1: blown away by it, uh I I looked it up again,
Speaker 1: and I don't think this particular album is available anymore,
Speaker 1: but you can find the The particular musician is a
Speaker 1: Nesa Usual. That's an easy I h u z e
Speaker 1: L and uh A couple of their albums are available
Speaker 1: to stream. Uh, it's it's it's really interesting stuff. Now.
Speaker 1: I'm not all that well versed in Middle Eastern music,
Speaker 1: but it does seem to have this very rhythmic quality
Speaker 1: that inspires a certain kind of circular movement even in
Speaker 1: the mind. Oh I, I really enjoyed the music too
Speaker 1: when you shared it with me. Uh, I don't know
Speaker 1: if I found myself thinking in circular ways. Did you
Speaker 1: find yourself ruminating while listening to it? Yeah? I played
Speaker 1: some of I played Useels music for several hours while
Speaker 1: working on notes for for these episodes the other day,
Speaker 1: and yeah, I found it. I mean, granted, you know,
Speaker 1: part of it is I am thinking about people spinning
Speaker 1: around in circles and then I'm listening to this music
Speaker 1: that is, of course uh innately tied to that practice.
Speaker 1: But but yeah, I found it. Found it give me
Speaker 1: this kind of like calming, circular feeling. And really I
Speaker 1: think it it contributed to yesterday being a pretty good day. Nice. Yeah,
Speaker 1: watching Sufi whirling dances is um, it's kind of hard
Speaker 1: to describe exactly the feeling of what's so beautiful about it.
Speaker 1: It is not like a lot of other dances that
Speaker 1: um that operate by sort of like surprise, where you
Speaker 1: know you don't know what moves someone's going to do next.
Speaker 1: The Sufi whirling dances are extremely monotonous. I mean, they're
Speaker 1: basically just There might be versions that offers something else,
Speaker 1: but the versions I've seen mainly just feature this repetitive
Speaker 1: turning in place. And yet it is extremely beautiful as
Speaker 1: a form of dance. Uh, And I think it has
Speaker 1: something to do with the thing I want to come
Speaker 1: back to later in this episode, which is the particular
Speaker 1: movement of the dancers skirts as they twirl. There's a
Speaker 1: kind of like beautiful geometry to that. And uh, there
Speaker 1: was actually a paper I came across the addressed how
Speaker 1: that happens. But um, but yeah, it's strange that that's
Speaker 1: such a in a way conceptually straightforward type of dance
Speaker 1: would be so interesting to watch for so long. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a real fluidity to it, and and you know,
Speaker 1: we were talking about watching it because of course that's
Speaker 1: that's that's my experience with it, uh, seeing it done,
Speaker 1: listening to the music, and it's my understanding that if
Speaker 1: you you know, if you're if you're to travel to
Speaker 1: say Turkey, you can certainly as a tourist see some
Speaker 1: of it today, observe it as a tourist, But of
Speaker 1: course it's really based more in the experience of the dance,
Speaker 1: of being the dancer. And I guess you can say
Speaker 1: that's kind of the case with a lot of dance,
Speaker 1: like it's there's dance to watch, but the dance is
Speaker 1: also the experience, and to be the dancer is to
Speaker 1: be within the system of movement. Yeah, so let's let's
Speaker 1: unpack things a little bit. Yes, Sufi Islam. Sufi Ism
Speaker 1: is the mystical branch of Islam in which the practitioner
Speaker 1: seeks divine love and knowledge through the direct experience of God. Uh.
Speaker 1: It entails different mystical paths towards this goal, but the
Speaker 1: one we're gonna be talking about here is, of course,
Speaker 1: this form of dance. The words sufi itself derives from
Speaker 1: the Arabic for wool, as early Islamic aesthetics individuals who
Speaker 1: practice the denial of physical or psychological desires dressed in
Speaker 1: woolen garments and Islamic mysticism is also known is uh
Speaker 1: tassa wolf, which literally means to dress in wool. The
Speaker 1: movement originally stirred up between six sixty one and seven
Speaker 1: forty nine c e. Apparently in response to perceptions of
Speaker 1: worldliness in Islamic practice at the time. I find it
Speaker 1: interesting that the mystical tradition can sort of arise as
Speaker 1: a form of almost any religion, like that, you can
Speaker 1: take almost any religion and then there will there can
Speaker 1: be a mysticism interpretation of it, which again is often
Speaker 1: focused on um individual experience and people having practices such
Speaker 1: as meditation or other practices to alter the state of
Speaker 1: consciousness to make themselves have what they believe to be
Speaker 1: a direct experience of the divine in some way. And
Speaker 1: that there there's Christian mysticism, and there's Islamic mysticism, and
Speaker 1: there's a mystical face of almost any religion you can imagine. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: and and and of course in pretty much any religion
Speaker 1: you can look at to it. It's a divide that
Speaker 1: can create problems that can can create conflict as well. Um.
Speaker 1: So again out of the US, out of Sufi Islam,
Speaker 1: we we see the Sufi whirling emerge. And I imagine
Speaker 1: a lot of you out there have heard of a
Speaker 1: key individual in this, and that is the Persian poet Roomi,
Speaker 1: who lived twelve h seven through twelve seventy three, and
Speaker 1: he himself was a Sufi mystic. Again, he dies in
Speaker 1: twelve seventy three see and afterwards his followers and his
Speaker 1: son Sultan Wallad create the MeV Levy Order, an organization
Speaker 1: of whirling dervishes who sought to experience God through elaborate
Speaker 1: rituals of dance and music. And this was formed in
Speaker 1: thirteen twelve in the Turkish city of Kanya. Now, many
Speaker 1: of you may have seen, you know, images and videos
Speaker 1: of of Sufi whirling and uh. And you know the
Speaker 1: dervishes where these tall camel hair hats that are said
Speaker 1: to represent the tombstone of the ego, which I really like, uh.
Speaker 1: And then they have these wide white skirts that twirl around.
Speaker 1: And of course these are very visually impressive and certainly
Speaker 1: play on that concept of whirling and turning, but these
Speaker 1: are said to represent the egos shroud. Oh I love that.
Speaker 1: And it's funny because that might be a little bit
Speaker 1: more literal than people would think. Well, I mean, I
Speaker 1: guess you can be. You can't have something that's too
Speaker 1: literal if you're talking about the ego, which is an
Speaker 1: intangible concept. But um, the way in which it is
Speaker 1: somewhat literal is that it's not just you are wearing
Speaker 1: a symbolic piece of dress, but that when you watch
Speaker 1: somebody practicing a sufi whirling dance, you will, I think
Speaker 1: very often find yourself not looking at the person and
Speaker 1: not looking at their face, but looking at the twirling skirt.
Speaker 1: The twirling skirt almost becomes the persons. So it's a
Speaker 1: kind of second order vanishing of the identity or the ego. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So the big ceremony here is the semi ceremony, and
Speaker 1: in the in this ceremony, the Dervish dancers rotate anti
Speaker 1: clockwise around the vertical access of their bodies while also
Speaker 1: rotate aating around the other dancers. It's all set to
Speaker 1: this this wonderful music, and it's intended to be a
Speaker 1: meditative experience, a highly meditative experience by which for the
Speaker 1: dancers their material self falls away and a state of
Speaker 1: oneness is experienced. Yes, and so you can obviously look
Speaker 1: at the religious, the symbolic, the psychological importance and significance
Speaker 1: of this dance. But another way to think about this
Speaker 1: dance is just as a physical act. And it comes
Speaker 1: back to questions that I, you know that we brought
Speaker 1: up in our earlier episode and in the first part
Speaker 1: of this series, which is I watch it and I think,
Speaker 1: just on a physiological level, how do you do that
Speaker 1: without becoming so dizzy that you have to stop? Yeah,
Speaker 1: because we're talking about a lot of spinning. You may
Speaker 1: have just seen clips of this, but the dancers will
Speaker 1: spend continuously for a solid hour with something like thirty
Speaker 1: spins per minute the performance. And this they performed this
Speaker 1: without experience saying vertico, without you know, feeling dizzy, following
Speaker 1: a reported thousand days of training within them. Havev Levie
Speaker 1: houses uh to to give another number to you. According
Speaker 1: to the Guinness Book of World Records, the most Sufi
Speaker 1: whirling revolutions in one hour for a male uh the
Speaker 1: record went to um Shafik Ibrahim on January five, two
Speaker 1: thousand twelve, for two thousand, nine hundred and five spins
Speaker 1: in a single hour. Wow. Yeah, I have no words.
Speaker 1: That's that's so many spins. Yeah, it's just it's it's
Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of spinning. Um. And and not only
Speaker 1: is the individual not like physically ill from it, not
Speaker 1: only are they they you know, retaining this uh, this
Speaker 1: fluid movement and this elegance, and they're not crashing into
Speaker 1: each other the walls. Uh, they're keeping it beautiful. But
Speaker 1: they're also uh, you know that they're said to have
Speaker 1: this this this meditative experience throughout it all. So it's
Speaker 1: not you know, dizzy us it is in many ways
Speaker 1: feels like the opposite of of a meditative experience. I mean,
Speaker 1: into a certain extent, you could, I guess you compare
Speaker 1: some things about it. But but yeah, what whatever, whatever
Speaker 1: is going on in the mind of the of the
Speaker 1: Sufi whirler, of the of the whirling dervish, it is
Speaker 1: not a state of dizzy chaos. Uh. So it's it's fascinating. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I would also think of dizziness as sort
Speaker 1: of the opposite of a meditative state. Dizziness makes you
Speaker 1: hyper aware of your body and makes it really difficult
Speaker 1: to focus your mind, right I guess then the main
Speaker 1: comparison would be, well, you're you're living in the now now,
Speaker 1: if you're if you're you're clutching your head on the ground,
Speaker 1: but not in the way that you want to feel
Speaker 1: in the moment. So I looked into this and I
Speaker 1: found an interesting paper titled a Possible role of prolonged
Speaker 1: whirling episodes on structural plasticity of the cortical networks and
Speaker 1: altered vertigo perception the cortex of Sufi Whirling Dervishes by
Speaker 1: colmac at All, and this was this was combining researchers
Speaker 1: from New Zealand, the Netherlands and Turkey particularly. Their study
Speaker 1: looked at quote potential structural cortical plasticity unquote in Sufi
Speaker 1: Whirling Dervishes. These s w d s as the the abbreviation,
Speaker 1: because again we're talking about a level of sustained spinning
Speaker 1: that most healthy adults are not going to be able
Speaker 1: to handle without experiencing vertigo. As they put it, quote,
Speaker 1: this unique whirling based meditation style of Sufi Whirling Dervishes
Speaker 1: achieves extraordinary physiological outcomes that overcome vertico and balance impairment,
Speaker 1: which would be expected after prolonged times of whirling. So
Speaker 1: they looked at quote potential relationship of the motion body
Speaker 1: perception related cortical networks and the prolonged term of whirling
Speaker 1: ability without vertigo or dizziness. So a note here again
Speaker 1: is the vestibular system, which of course we went into
Speaker 1: and defined in the UH in the first episode, you know,
Speaker 1: related to the inner ear, in our the inner ear,
Speaker 1: in our sense of balance. They point out that vestibular
Speaker 1: processing is involved not only in space perception and locomotion,
Speaker 1: but also in cognitive perceptions of self. And so there
Speaker 1: is this connection, they say, between the vestibular system and
Speaker 1: the default mode network as well, something we've also discussed
Speaker 1: on the show quite a bit, tied to self awareness,
Speaker 1: to consciousness, to embodiment, but also in many cases unhappiness.
Speaker 1: You know, this this dwelling on what has happened in
Speaker 1: the past, what has happened to me, what is happening
Speaker 1: in the footle, happening in UH, to me in the future, etcetera.
Speaker 1: And and you know, getting away from that now, nous
Speaker 1: that we often associate with a meditative calm UH. The
Speaker 1: default mode network, I think, is highly associated with cognitive
Speaker 1: patterns that are focused on the self, thinking about self
Speaker 1: and making judgments about the self, And I mean, what's
Speaker 1: more miserable than that. Yeah. I think it's interesting too
Speaker 1: that we're talking about wheeling and spinning, because there's you know,
Speaker 1: the sort of thinking associated with the default mode network
Speaker 1: sometimes takes the form of a wheel, and other belief systems,
Speaker 1: you know, like some some treatments or interpretations of the
Speaker 1: like the wheel of being in Buddhism kind of relate
Speaker 1: to this, you know, or just sort of the feeling
Speaker 1: of like, oh, I'm on the I'm on the hamster
Speaker 1: wheel of my own default mode network right now, I've
Speaker 1: got to eject myself from that wheel, uh and do
Speaker 1: something with my time. So the question is does prolonged
Speaker 1: whirling contribute to structural changes in the networks of the
Speaker 1: default mode network and self perception in addition to motion
Speaker 1: perception related networks. So the authors point out that previous
Speaker 1: studies have observed, first of all, the decreased cortical thickness
Speaker 1: and meditator's brains relate to the posterior singulate cortex or
Speaker 1: PCC and the default mode network also decreased activity in
Speaker 1: the default mode network as well as long and also
Speaker 1: they when out long term meditation practices associated with altered
Speaker 1: resting brain activity, so long lasting activity changes that persist
Speaker 1: in the brain. In a way, you could think about
Speaker 1: meditation as a way of practicing control over what the
Speaker 1: brain does win at rest, right. Yeah, And you know
Speaker 1: it's it's you know, we we've talked about meditation on
Speaker 1: the show in the past. I'm sure we'll continue too,
Speaker 1: because it is. It can it can feel very elusive
Speaker 1: at times, and I think part of it comes down
Speaker 1: to this connection between the mind and body. You know
Speaker 1: that that um. I mean that's why I think a
Speaker 1: lot of us find meditation in meditative states or even
Speaker 1: the flow state in activities that are physical, you know,
Speaker 1: like in h in yoga for instance, um or or
Speaker 1: um you know, even you know, other type forms of exercise,
Speaker 1: swimming laps, running laps, going for a jog, that sort
Speaker 1: of thing. Yes, though I feel like I would identify
Speaker 1: more of that meta hate of type flow state in
Speaker 1: physical tasks that also require some degree of constant uh
Speaker 1: sort of mental engagement, more so than say, jogging does
Speaker 1: uh you know, Like I I've heard some people complain
Speaker 1: that maybe they can enjoy sports, but they find quote
Speaker 1: exercise boring, And I think what they're thinking of is
Speaker 1: like running on a treadmill, in which like in which case, um,
Speaker 1: you are engaging your body, but you are not. You
Speaker 1: are not being faced with tasks. You know, there's not
Speaker 1: like any problems for your brain to solve the way
Speaker 1: there is when you're say playing a sport or something
Speaker 1: or doing something with um, doing something with like variable
Speaker 1: activities throughout, such as like a yoga practice or a
Speaker 1: or a you know, a dance routine or something. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: but I guess if you're like say jogging around the
Speaker 1: neighborhood and you're having to solve various problems, right like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna not run onto that sidewalk that's all crooked,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna jump over that dog, and I'm not going
Speaker 1: to step in that that or that. Right though. It's
Speaker 1: funny because I feel like that just manifests as extreme annoyance. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, it can like there's a thin line
Speaker 1: sometimes between uh, tasks that are fulfilling and tasks that
Speaker 1: are just a chore. I mean, we've talked before about how, um,
Speaker 1: sometimes when you're driving in a car, it can make
Speaker 1: other people just appear as obstacles to you, and there's
Speaker 1: this kind of horrible desensitization that goes on. And we
Speaker 1: talked about one reason for that being that um that
Speaker 1: perhaps the you know, updating the body schema to include
Speaker 1: the car makes you feel bigger looking at people through
Speaker 1: the glass of the windshield, operating on you know, the
Speaker 1: different rules of the control traffic versus control foot movements,
Speaker 1: those things could be separating you. But I think another
Speaker 1: one that maybe we didn't consider enough when we've talked
Speaker 1: about this in the past is just speed, because when
Speaker 1: you're out running on the side walk, it seems like
Speaker 1: you have a very different relationship to other people than
Speaker 1: if you're out walking. When you're out running, you start
Speaker 1: to view other people as like obstacles in the same
Speaker 1: kind of way you do you're when you're in a car.
Speaker 1: You're like persons in my way. They're not even really
Speaker 1: a person. This is just like a sack of meat
Speaker 1: that I need to get around. Yeah, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: not myself a runner, but I do I get I
Speaker 1: get hints of that from other runners sometimes. Thank so
Speaker 1: for for this particular study, the authors are going to
Speaker 1: look at um at a Sufi whirlers now. One thing
Speaker 1: they note though, is that the practice of Mevlevi ceremonies
Speaker 1: they're not as robust as they were prior to the
Speaker 1: twentieth century due to a secular policies that were enforced.
Speaker 1: So a lot of what remains today apparently isn't as
Speaker 1: rigorous and is often aimed at at tourist audiences, so
Speaker 1: it's difficult to study quote the traditional physical and spiritual
Speaker 1: method involved here. As a result, you know, that's not
Speaker 1: a huge sample size they're working with. So they looked
Speaker 1: at eight males and two females adults right handed traditional
Speaker 1: Sufi whirling dervishes with more than eight years of whirling
Speaker 1: meditation experience, so the average was something like ten and
Speaker 1: a half years of whirling uh, which I think broke
Speaker 1: down to about like two whirling sessions per week to
Speaker 1: keep the practice up. They also had a ten person
Speaker 1: control group that was otherwise matched up with the attributes
Speaker 1: of of the individuals that were themselves whirlers. They performed
Speaker 1: m r I scans and found an average difference in
Speaker 1: cortical thickness of point ten millimeters for the left hemisphere
Speaker 1: of the brain and point fifteen millimeters for the right
Speaker 1: hemisphere of the brain. So they present this as proof
Speaker 1: of structural plasticity induced by the whirling meditations of Sufi
Speaker 1: whirling dervishes. Now, one of the take comes in from
Speaker 1: the study is that this sort of information could lead
Speaker 1: to some improvements in vertigo therapy. Uh and I also
Speaker 1: imagine it goes back to what we mentioned in the
Speaker 1: last episode about the more we understand this sort of thing,
Speaker 1: the more we can understand just to how the brain functions,
Speaker 1: how the brain can heal itself, that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: But they also stress that there's a lot of possibility
Speaker 1: in the the potential mood enhancing effect of the defined
Speaker 1: structurally plastinated cortical areas UM and and and how that
Speaker 1: is worth consideration. So they point out that the default
Speaker 1: mode network is active except when it is suppressed by
Speaker 1: other networks or stimulated by other states, and that its activity,
Speaker 1: of course, is generally correlated with unhappiness in the human experience. Quote. Therefore,
Speaker 1: it is theorized that prolonged periods of gold erected cognitive
Speaker 1: processes may decrease the mind wandering activity in the s
Speaker 1: w d's brain because the precunious activity has been decreased.
Speaker 1: They also theorized that the suppression of cortical areas related
Speaker 1: with the discriminational perception here leads to less selfish egocentric
Speaker 1: behavior and increased levels of happiness. And they think that
Speaker 1: the decreased activity in the dorso lateral prefrontal cortex may
Speaker 1: contribute to the behavioral attribute of honesty. And additionally, there
Speaker 1: could be a neuro protection advantage here as well, you know,
Speaker 1: against the likes of say Alzheimer's and other conditions. Well,
Speaker 1: I guess, like a lot of neuroimaging and neurological studies
Speaker 1: it it opens up a lot of possibilities that you
Speaker 1: should we should be careful to remember aren't necessarily proven yet,
Speaker 1: but are really interesting and worth looking into with other experiments. Yeah, Like,
Speaker 1: there are a lot of questions about the default mode network,
Speaker 1: for example, and and just about anything else you could
Speaker 1: point out in the human brain. Yeah, we've even talked
Speaker 1: about how there are some people, I think, who question
Speaker 1: the validity of the default mode network as a coherent
Speaker 1: concept and like is this really a thing? But um,
Speaker 1: but but there are others who advocate for it. So
Speaker 1: I don't know how to sort that question out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would say that some of the key takeaways from
Speaker 1: the study though, or that that, first of all, this
Speaker 1: incredible act of spinning by by the Sufi whirlers, it
Speaker 1: is it is producing like physical changes in the brain,
Speaker 1: like there is there is neural plasticity involved here, and
Speaker 1: you know it is. It is also a meditative state
Speaker 1: they enter into and you don't have to it's not
Speaker 1: really a stretch to say that. Yes, the meditative states,
Speaker 1: repetitive medi meditative states, meditative meditative states that are engaged
Speaker 1: in with with a fair amount of frequency that has
Speaker 1: an effect on your resting um neural level. Uh So
Speaker 1: all of that is, you know, really fascinating, makes me,
Speaker 1: you know, respect this tradition even more and I have
Speaker 1: to say, it makes me want to spend more in
Speaker 1: my life. Um well, wait, I mean it seems difficult
Speaker 1: that like, is it a thing where you'd have to
Speaker 1: do it a lot to get used to it enough
Speaker 1: to get the benefits from it? Is that the case?
Speaker 1: I guess? I mean, yes, that see it certainly too
Speaker 1: well to spin at their level, it requires I mean
Speaker 1: they they prescribe what what I say, a thousand days
Speaker 1: of of practice to get to the point where you
Speaker 1: could actually partake of this ceremony. Um. But I mean
Speaker 1: just in terms of, like, on on on one level,
Speaker 1: it may I want to do it just because I
Speaker 1: I fail at it so much. Now, Like the idea
Speaker 1: that I can change my brain, that I can change
Speaker 1: myself to spend better, like to do not feel like
Speaker 1: my soul has been ripped out of my body when
Speaker 1: I spin around five times on a yoga mat. Uh.
Speaker 1: Like that that alone is attractive, you know, the the
Speaker 1: idea that like, yeah, I'm I can I can change
Speaker 1: and become this slightly different version of myself. And you know,
Speaker 1: it's also worth noting that. Um. You know, while this
Speaker 1: is the most um intriguing and probably the most extreme
Speaker 1: example of spinning dance, there are a lot of spinning
Speaker 1: in circular dance traditions and other regions of the world.
Speaker 1: You know, maybe not as intense, but certainly the circular
Speaker 1: form pops up in traditions around the world. So I
Speaker 1: wonder if if just even those cases, you have a
Speaker 1: certain level of a flow state and meditative calm that
Speaker 1: overcomes you when you're a part of it. I don't
Speaker 1: have a lot of direct experience with that aside from
Speaker 1: what square dancing and p class when I was a kid,
Speaker 1: which is not at all the same thing. God, I
Speaker 1: also had to do square dancing and pe and that
Speaker 1: was bizarre, absolutely bizarre. It's a terrible time for it, um,
Speaker 1: I feel. But at the same time, after looking at
Speaker 1: all this, I'm like, yes, they were right to make
Speaker 1: us dance around in circles and move our bodies and spin.
Speaker 1: Kids need to spend, like we discussed in the previous episode,
Speaker 1: and uh, yeah, why not make them square dance, I guess.
Speaker 1: So there's another aspect of Sufi whirling that I wanted
Speaker 1: to talk about because I found a strange paper. I
Speaker 1: alluded to this earlier. Uh, but just to reintroduce the
Speaker 1: concept again. So you watch one of these sufi whirling ceremonies,
Speaker 1: and there's the music, and there's just the human factor,
Speaker 1: you know, being interested in in other people's religious practices
Speaker 1: and all that. But there's this other aspect that makes
Speaker 1: the dance especially beautiful and interesting, and it's the movement
Speaker 1: of the dancers skirts. Now, you mentioned earlier that there's
Speaker 1: this symbolic role of the skirts representing, you know, the
Speaker 1: shroud of the ego, and I think that is there's
Speaker 1: something very much to that even as it comes through
Speaker 1: in the way the dancers look from the outside. But
Speaker 1: there's also something about the skirts that's undeniably a part
Speaker 1: of the raw of visual appeal of the dance to
Speaker 1: outside observers. As the dancer twirls, the skirt is sort
Speaker 1: of lifted into the air by the centripetal force of
Speaker 1: the rotation, but it is not lifted up in a
Speaker 1: perfect uniform circle. Instead, what you get are these odd,
Speaker 1: gorgeous hypnotic patterns of ripples with peaks and troughs, as
Speaker 1: if there were waves in a fluid moving through the fabric.
Speaker 1: And while watching it, it is very easy to just
Speaker 1: space out. It's like it's a visual stimulus that creates
Speaker 1: a feeling that's, at least to me, it's very similar
Speaker 1: to watching the undulations of a jellyfish. Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1: And so the question is what causes these sort of
Speaker 1: mesmerizing patterns of movement in the surface of these turning skirts.
Speaker 1: And believe it or not, there is a physics paper
Speaker 1: about this. Uh so. This is called Whirling Skirts and
Speaker 1: Rotating Cones in the New Journal of Physics published by
Speaker 1: Jamal Gouvin, j Hannah and Martin Michael Muller, and they
Speaker 1: put a very technical description to these hypnotic movements that
Speaker 1: I was just talking about. They call it, They say,
Speaker 1: quote steady dihedral e symmetric patterns with sharp peaks may
Speaker 1: be observed on a spinning skirt lagging behind the material
Speaker 1: flow of the fabric. And so this is quoted in
Speaker 1: a in a phys dot Or article by co author
Speaker 1: James Hannah. Quote, The dancers don't do much but spin
Speaker 1: around at a fixed speed, but their skirts show these
Speaker 1: very striking, long lived patterns with sharp cusp like features,
Speaker 1: which seem rather counterintuitive. And I think it's partially that
Speaker 1: counterintuitive aspect that makes the skirts so interesting to watch.
Speaker 1: There there's a there's a soothing rhythm to how the
Speaker 1: skirts move, but they also seem to sort of defy physics.
Speaker 1: They don't look like they're moving in the way that
Speaker 1: they should. Are you watching an example, I'm picturing it
Speaker 1: in my head. Yeah, as as I said here staring
Speaker 1: into the zoom camera, I'm I'm imagining that the hypnotic
Speaker 1: circular movements of the dancers. Yeah, yeah, Like sometimes the
Speaker 1: skirts kind of resemble the way that if you watch
Speaker 1: a helicopter blade spinning on film, uh, if the shutter
Speaker 1: speed of the camera lines up in the right way
Speaker 1: with the rotation uh with you know, with the rotations
Speaker 1: per minute of the helicopter blade, it will look like
Speaker 1: the blade is spinning backwards. Yeah, there's a similar kind
Speaker 1: of thing that sometimes goes on with the apparent peaks
Speaker 1: and waves in the skirt. So anyway, what what explains this? Well,
Speaker 1: I thought the answer that came up with here was
Speaker 1: pretty interesting. They found that the patterns of movement in
Speaker 1: a free flowing, nearly symmetrical cone shaped structure like the
Speaker 1: fabric of a dancers skirt, are largely influenced by the
Speaker 1: Coriolis force. Quote. A perturbative analysis of nearly access symmetric
Speaker 1: cones shows that Coriolis forces are essential and establishing skirt
Speaker 1: like solutions. Skirt like solutions. And I love it when,
Speaker 1: you know, physicists come up with like a physics way
Speaker 1: of describing something that you would never normally hear put
Speaker 1: into those terms. But so Coriolis forces are are themselves
Speaker 1: very interesting. They are responsible for, for example, determining the
Speaker 1: rotation ation of weather patterns in the atmosphere, of Earth.
Speaker 1: The Coriolis effect is a name for the deflection of
Speaker 1: the motion of free flowing materials on a rotating surface.
Speaker 1: And this is one of those things that can be
Speaker 1: kind of hard to understand intuitively, but I'll do my
Speaker 1: best with an analogy. Imagine you're trying to play catch
Speaker 1: with someone. So you're throwing a baseball back and forth.
Speaker 1: But you're throwing a baseball back and forth on a
Speaker 1: merry go round. Suddenly you can't just throw in a
Speaker 1: straight line, right, You know. If I'm trying to throw
Speaker 1: to you on the other side of the merry go
Speaker 1: round and I throw straight at you, suddenly the ball
Speaker 1: from our point of view will appear to curve off
Speaker 1: target in some bizarre way, right, And it's because you're moving. Right,
Speaker 1: I throw the ball in a straight line, it does
Speaker 1: go in a straight line, but you move and so
Speaker 1: it looks like the ball just flew off to the
Speaker 1: side in the middle of its uh traveling. And it's
Speaker 1: because we're in a rotating reference frame. A similar thing
Speaker 1: takes place on larger rotating reference frames, such as the
Speaker 1: Earth itself. When you have free flowing patterns of fluid,
Speaker 1: you know, such as weather, you know, it's fluids moving
Speaker 1: through fluids, it's it's clouds or or winds moving through air.
Speaker 1: These are affected by the rotation of the Earth, causing
Speaker 1: winds to typically form clockwise patterns in the northern hemisphere
Speaker 1: and counterclockwise patterns in the southern hemisphere. And apparently when
Speaker 1: a Sufi dancer twirls, the rotation of the skirt also
Speaker 1: gives rise to Coreoli's forces in the patterns of the fabric.
Speaker 1: To quote James hannagg In and that that physic or
Speaker 1: article quote, the flow of a sheet of material is
Speaker 1: much more restrictive than the flow of the atmosphere, but
Speaker 1: nonetheless it results in Coriolis forces. What we found was
Speaker 1: that this flow and the associated Coriolis forces plays a
Speaker 1: crucial role in forming the dervish like patterns. And the
Speaker 1: authors actually came up with equations to dis scribe these
Speaker 1: effects in free flowing conical materials like the fabric of
Speaker 1: a skirt. And so now you have an equation that
Speaker 1: can show you the skirt like solutions. Yeah, we will
Speaker 1: not read it out to you have to look it
Speaker 1: up for yourself. Because I found a similar situation in
Speaker 1: first episode where we talked about spinning kicks, and I
Speaker 1: found a post about the physics of a spin kick.
Speaker 1: But it was just it was there was just no
Speaker 1: sense in getting into it because I would just be
Speaker 1: me reading out an equation. But anyway, I don't For
Speaker 1: some reason, I found something oddly beautiful about this study. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, and it's it also seems kind of fitting, right,
Speaker 1: given the mystical nature of it, you know, and and
Speaker 1: and the idea of there being this mathematical pattern underlying
Speaker 1: what we see when we uh witness this particular tradition,
Speaker 1: you know. Than now, speaking of cultural traditions about spinning
Speaker 1: around in circles, another one came to mind while we
Speaker 1: were getting ready for this episode, and it is something
Speaker 1: you may have seen at a baseball game. It is
Speaker 1: the dizzy bat race. You know. I had completely forgotten
Speaker 1: about this until you shared a clip of people doing it.
Speaker 1: So this is when the first step is you take
Speaker 1: a baseball bat and you put the I don't know,
Speaker 1: the club end on the on the ground does the
Speaker 1: end and I don't know, yeah, And and then well
Speaker 1: I guess it. I don't know if it matters. Maybe
Speaker 1: maybe it doesn't. But then one end of the bat
Speaker 1: is on the ground and the other end of the
Speaker 1: bat is on your forehead, so you're bending and then yeah,
Speaker 1: and you're bending over and then you start spinning around
Speaker 1: three Stooges style around it right, yep, yep, it spin
Speaker 1: around in circles, and then you gotta do something. You
Speaker 1: gotta run somewhere. I don't think it really matters after that.
Speaker 1: You just the goal is you get a couple of
Speaker 1: people out of the audience who maybe been having a
Speaker 1: few stadium beers. I mean, that's probably watered down beer,
Speaker 1: but it's still beer. They've got some alcohol in their system. Alcohol.
Speaker 1: It does affect the vestibular system, as we know. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then and then you make it even worse by
Speaker 1: having them spin around a bunch of times and then
Speaker 1: say like, hey, run and try to catch this hot
Speaker 1: dog or something, and they'll typically stumble all over the place.
Speaker 1: In one example we were looking at, one of the
Speaker 1: guys runs straight into the stands and falls over the wall.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's quite a wipeout. But then he's right
Speaker 1: back in his feet. Yeah, let you see that. Bra
Speaker 1: So generally, as you said this, this sport is presented
Speaker 1: as a impromptu competition that one has not trained for.
Speaker 1: But based on everything we've discussed here, um, you know
Speaker 1: training would be able to help you. Uh. You know,
Speaker 1: the untrained performance seems to be key to the dizzy
Speaker 1: bat race. But if you were to train for it,
Speaker 1: you could potentially be in a better position to excel
Speaker 1: at it. Oh yeah, like training like a Sufi dancer
Speaker 1: or like a or like a ballerina or a figure skater.
Speaker 1: You just dizzy bat yourself for hours a day every
Speaker 1: day until you can become the ultimate dizzy bat hustler.
Speaker 1: And like nobody knows when you go in that I'm
Speaker 1: going to be better at catching the hot dog or
Speaker 1: whatever it is. I don't know why I said hot dog.
Speaker 1: I guess that's another thing that's at baseball stadiums. You know,
Speaker 1: they may do a hot dog version. I guess one
Speaker 1: of the versions I was looking at is like you
Speaker 1: do the dizzy bat thing. You you spin around and
Speaker 1: then you have to run to like first base and
Speaker 1: to see if you can run in a straight line,
Speaker 1: and then you're it's your time, right, It's like they
Speaker 1: time you on it. So, UM, I have a potential
Speaker 1: answer to this. It's not a scientific answer, but I
Speaker 1: come to it via another physical activity that involves spinning,
Speaker 1: and that's the world of professional wrestling. Um, so I
Speaker 1: knew we'd end up back here. I didn't expect to
Speaker 1: talk about about pro wrestling in this at all. Um beside, well,
Speaker 1: I guess I already did. I did bring it up briefly. Um,
Speaker 1: what was the elbow or something from from Japanese wrestling? Yeah,
Speaker 1: like a roaring elbow where you get you spin around
Speaker 1: and do an elbow. It's uh, you know, it's flashy looking.
Speaker 1: But but there are a couple of other more famous
Speaker 1: spinning maneuvers. So one of them, and tell me if
Speaker 1: you've seen this before, Joe. One is the airplane spin.
Speaker 1: This is when one wrestler puts another in a fireman's carry,
Speaker 1: you know, up on their shoulders, and then they spin
Speaker 1: around more or less like a whirling dervish before dumping
Speaker 1: them over and then the ideas you're both dizzy. Okay.
Speaker 1: The other version is the giant swing. And in this one,
Speaker 1: one wrestler grabs the legs of the other, you know,
Speaker 1: like a wheelbarrow hold, and then spins them around like
Speaker 1: a centrifuge and then eventually releases them. And there are
Speaker 1: a couple of other variants, but these are the main
Speaker 1: spinning moves. So I guess the idea and that the
Speaker 1: giant swing is that you are attempting to spin around
Speaker 1: until the intracranial pressure of the blood flowing up to
Speaker 1: the top of their head kills them. Right. Is that
Speaker 1: an execution move? It's a finishing move, and generally, yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess in Mortal Kombat would it would make the
Speaker 1: top of your head fly off and your brains splat
Speaker 1: again against the camera or something. But in pro pro wrestling,
Speaker 1: both of these moves generally play out this way, like
Speaker 1: you spin your opponent around until they're dizzy. You're dizzy
Speaker 1: as well, but then you take advantage and you either
Speaker 1: pin the person or or it gives you a chance
Speaker 1: to do another maneuver on them and then potentially win.
Speaker 1: A lot of times it's kind of played up for
Speaker 1: comedy though, like oh, you did the airplane spin, and
Speaker 1: now both people are dizzy and they can't punch each other,
Speaker 1: and they're kind of doing a you know, kind of
Speaker 1: a dizzy bat humor spot where like, oh, now we
Speaker 1: can't connect it. It's a way to kind of like
Speaker 1: break down the action for a little bit. It seems
Speaker 1: like a move that the bush Whackers would have done,
Speaker 1: remember them. Yeah, But you know, I've often dismissed the
Speaker 1: move because I think, oh, well, that just makes you
Speaker 1: both dizzy. It's not very realistic. What's the point of
Speaker 1: making your opponent really dizzy if you yourself are equally dizzy.
Speaker 1: But given everything we've talked about here, it absolutely makes
Speaker 1: sense that a wrestler who regular uses a spinny move
Speaker 1: or just trains and spinning would be less affected by
Speaker 1: the maneuver and could then, you know, better utilize it
Speaker 1: in a match. Of course, the reverse would be true
Speaker 1: as well, right if you in in cafe, within the
Speaker 1: within the fiction of pro wrestling, If you knew you
Speaker 1: were going to go up against someone who uses a
Speaker 1: move like this, say Hiroshi Hayes or Cesarrow or Daniel Bryant,
Speaker 1: you could train and prepare for it so that they
Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to, you know, to to to to
Speaker 1: use it effectively against you. I don't think I don't
Speaker 1: think that's ever been used from a wrestling psychology standpoint,
Speaker 1: but it seems like it could be a good angle.
Speaker 1: I'm imagining the Ric Flair monologue now, you can't use
Speaker 1: that role on me. It's Rolex time. You could have
Speaker 1: a training montage of somebody spinning around in circles preparing
Speaker 1: for their match, and then you know, making themselves less
Speaker 1: susceptible to the move. But but outside of the fictional
Speaker 1: world of the you know, the match itself. The other question,
Speaker 1: of course, is do wrestlers like the ones I just
Speaker 1: mentioned do they adapt to using the maneuver? You know,
Speaker 1: if you're using an airplane spin or a giant swing
Speaker 1: in you know, a couple of times a week or
Speaker 1: just regularly, you know, in your matches, do you become
Speaker 1: less susceptible to dizziness? And I couldn't find a real
Speaker 1: answer on this. I looked around a little bit for
Speaker 1: you know, interviews and all, but I did find footage
Speaker 1: of a dizzy bat competition featuring w w E wrestlers,
Speaker 1: and one of the wrestlers was this guy Cesaro who
Speaker 1: who uses this um this giant swing a lot in
Speaker 1: his matches and has also i think on one in
Speaker 1: one case he used a hundred revolutions in a single match,
Speaker 1: so so yeah, he'll really get spinning. And he has
Speaker 1: another spinning move called a UFO which is basically an
Speaker 1: inverted airplane spin. It's also very impressive, uh, just to
Speaker 1: be performed. So it raises like it's it is the question,
Speaker 1: how's he going to do in this? In this dizzy
Speaker 1: bat competition? And you know, this is very unscientific. He
Speaker 1: only was competing against I think two other people, but
Speaker 1: he did win. He had better time doing the dizzy
Speaker 1: bat thing and then running out the first base. He
Speaker 1: he had better time than either competitor. That's so that's interesting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so there you go. Maybe maybe it does. Uh, maybe
Speaker 1: there is a way to prepare for the dizzy bat
Speaker 1: competition and maybe spinning around a lot in pro wrestling
Speaker 1: does produce these results. I mean, it makes complete sense
Speaker 1: based on everything we've looked at. I think what it
Speaker 1: means is that Cesarro has a future in ice skating
Speaker 1: or ballet probably, so. I mean, professional dance and professional
Speaker 1: wrestling have a lot in common. And uh, I mean
Speaker 1: he's a hoss. He could do it well. What that
Speaker 1: makes me wonder is are there any well known pro
Speaker 1: wrestlers who were also professional dancers in something that is
Speaker 1: acknowledged as dance. Um, I don't know, I'm not sure
Speaker 1: on that offhand, it seems like they're they're m be.
Speaker 1: I mean, you have wrestlers coming in with all sorts
Speaker 1: of backgrounds, Um, you know, certainly gymnastics backgrounds in some cases.
Speaker 1: So uh, I'm sure there's there's one out there that
Speaker 1: has some sort of a dance background. Hulkster was he
Speaker 1: also a square dancing champion. I don't know if the
Speaker 1: Hulkster was a square great dancing champion now, um, But Mike,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to remember if he ever did the giant
Speaker 1: swing he might have I can't recall. While on the
Speaker 1: subject of of airplane spins as a as an offensive move,
Speaker 1: I guess we've come full circle to like in Bison territory.
Speaker 1: There was another thing I was thinking about when we
Speaker 1: were doing this episode that was, um, it was a
Speaker 1: Simpsons episode with a certain type of spinning torture as hazing.
Speaker 1: It's the episode where Barton Lisa get enrolled in a
Speaker 1: military academy and there's a scene where they're being hazed
Speaker 1: and they're apparently strapped to airplane propellers and then the
Speaker 1: the airplane runs, so they like spin around with the propeller.
Speaker 1: That's a different kind of spinning than we're usually talking about,
Speaker 1: because we're talking about spinning along a different axis of
Speaker 1: the body. This would be again more like the giant swing.
Speaker 1: This would be like centrifuging you. Uh. And while it's
Speaker 1: funny in the show, I think I would have to
Speaker 1: say my suspicion is that this would be absolutely one fatal.
Speaker 1: In reality, it was just like, you know, shove all
Speaker 1: the blood in your body up to the top of
Speaker 1: your head and kill you. Yeah, I mean it's it
Speaker 1: basically comes back to the Moonraker example that we talked
Speaker 1: about earlier, you know, where there's a scene and Moonraker
Speaker 1: where James Bond is put in a centrifuge as torture, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: the G Forces simulator for astronauts. Yeah, except I think
Speaker 1: that's different because the way his body is oriented, the
Speaker 1: way I thought it was supposed to be, was that
Speaker 1: the g forces would be operating. The other way would
Speaker 1: be like taking the blood out of his head, you know,
Speaker 1: and pulling it towards his feet like would normally Hugh,
Speaker 1: I don't know. Well, actually I don't know, because if
Speaker 1: the astronauts are the astronauts are usually exeeded, what with
Speaker 1: the back of their bodies face saying the facing the
Speaker 1: the exhaust, right, So maybe that would just mean that
Speaker 1: the blood is pulled not up or down your body,
Speaker 1: but towards the back of your body, towards the back
Speaker 1: of your skull. Yeah, I guess, And it would also
Speaker 1: depend on the maneuver you're taking in the airplane. But
Speaker 1: but certainly when you're talking about the effects of of
Speaker 1: G force on the blood flow and the body, particularly
Speaker 1: blood flow to the brain, that's where you can get
Speaker 1: into hypoxia territory where not enough blood and oxygen is
Speaker 1: reaching the brain, and you can certainly lose consciousness that way, um,
Speaker 1: which is of course extra dangerous if you are also
Speaker 1: piloting an aircraft. Um, especially if you're piloting an aircraft
Speaker 1: that is to say, in a spin or something like that.
Speaker 1: So um, yeah, the idea of this being a potentially
Speaker 1: lethal way to torment parton Lisa, absolutely. What is there's
Speaker 1: some movie where that's there's like a scene where a
Speaker 1: character has to execute a move in an airplane or
Speaker 1: a spaceship or something that they know is going to
Speaker 1: cause them to lose asciousness student forces and they have
Speaker 1: to like recover in time. Do you does that ringing
Speaker 1: a bell for you? Oh? It vaguely does. I mean
Speaker 1: this kind of thing comes up a fair amount in
Speaker 1: in films about about to say, fighter crafts and all,
Speaker 1: so it could have been some of the usual suspects.
Speaker 1: They're like the like top Gun or that one where
Speaker 1: Clint Eastwood flies s R seventy one or some version
Speaker 1: of it. I don't know that one. Yeah, I forget
Speaker 1: it was. I always wanted to watch it as a
Speaker 1: kid because I remember really loving the SR seventy one
Speaker 1: and the the SR seventy one Blackbird, which was right,
Speaker 1: you know, it was a reconnaissance aircraft that could fly
Speaker 1: super fast, super high altitude that um, I think you
Speaker 1: got it a pretty high altitude as well. Not to
Speaker 1: be confused with the YouTube which just does you know,
Speaker 1: really long wings and his high altitude reconnaissance. But the
Speaker 1: SR seventy one was beautiful and the he's supposed to
Speaker 1: be flying a fighter plane in this in this film
Speaker 1: that's based on the SR seventy one, or maybe they
Speaker 1: use an SR seventy one stand in. And I used
Speaker 1: to see the VHS copy think oh that that looks
Speaker 1: like such a great movie, and I think later I
Speaker 1: did see it, and it's it's not great, but it
Speaker 1: has a cool plane in it. So what can you
Speaker 1: do but to come back to video games. Certainly, anyone
Speaker 1: who's ever played a flight simulator you know that, uh,
Speaker 1: if you you take on too many G forces, the
Speaker 1: screen is gonna go black or the screen is gonna
Speaker 1: go red. You know you're gonna potitionally black out or
Speaker 1: red out based on the G forces. Oh and by
Speaker 1: the way, that Clint Eatwood movie was two Firefox. I
Speaker 1: had to look it up to make sure that I was, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, giving everybody the uh, the the full recommend there.
Speaker 1: Directed by Clint Eastwood, starring Clint Eastwood. Um, I would
Speaker 1: have had Ronald Lacy in it, uh of Raiders of
Speaker 1: the Lost Ark fame, who played U, you know, the
Speaker 1: villainous taught uh the s S officer. Wait what, oh,
Speaker 1: I see you. I'm confusing this the name of the
Speaker 1: movie you're talking about with the movie that I watched
Speaker 1: as a child called fire Birds, not Firefox. This was
Speaker 1: a helicopter action movie starring Nicolas Cage and yeah, Nicolas
Speaker 1: Cage and Tommy Lee Jones and Sean Young and I
Speaker 1: think some other recognizable character actors. And I remember there's
Speaker 1: a scene where Nicolas Cage has to like drive a
Speaker 1: car with one of his eyes covered up looking through
Speaker 1: a periscope in order to train his brain. Oh nice, Well,
Speaker 1: that's a perfect place to close out here, because so
Speaker 1: much of what we've talked about it comes down to
Speaker 1: training the brain um of the brain, becoming used to
Speaker 1: what the body is is going through and and altering
Speaker 1: the way that it understands the signals that are delivered
Speaker 1: to it. All right, we're gonna go ahead and close
Speaker 1: out these episodes here then. Um, obviously we'd love to
Speaker 1: hear from everybody out there about these episodes. You know,
Speaker 1: what are your experiences with spinning around in circles related
Speaker 1: to say, dance? Uh? Do we have skaters and dancers
Speaker 1: and I know we have at least one uh individual
Speaker 1: listens to show with the ballet background. We'd love to
Speaker 1: hear from them on this. Um. Also, do we have
Speaker 1: any Sufi listeners who would like to chime in on
Speaker 1: either the experience of the Sufi whirling or just the
Speaker 1: place that it has within the religion. Uh, you know, basically,
Speaker 1: any any anything you have to add or if you
Speaker 1: just have stuff about video games and movies. Will also
Speaker 1: be happy to listen to you on on that front
Speaker 1: as well. In the meantime, if you like to check
Speaker 1: out other episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, you
Speaker 1: know where to find it. You can find it anywhere
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Speaker 1: Go there if you want to buy a shirt with
Speaker 1: a monster or a logo on it. And uh, I
Speaker 1: I know some of you are probably intrigued by the
Speaker 1: mention of the of the Whirling Dervishes, the video and
Speaker 1: the and of course the music. I'm gonna put a
Speaker 1: post up about that at my my website, Samooda music
Speaker 1: dot com. Uh that's just a little impersonal blog that
Speaker 1: I do, uh you know, the low key blogging I
Speaker 1: call it. But I'll do a post there about about
Speaker 1: the music that I'll have a few links for you
Speaker 1: in some bedded video that you can check out if
Speaker 1: you so desire. Huge thanks as always to our excellent
Speaker 1: audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you'd like to get
Speaker 1: in touch with us with feedback on this episode or
Speaker 1: any other, to suggest topic for the future, or just
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