WEBVTT - From the Vault: Like a Circle in a Spiral, Part 2 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:07.800 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. This is 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:11.080 Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday time 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:15.560 for the Vault. Today's episode originally published December tenth. It's 0:00:15.640 --> 0:00:18.280 like a circle in a spiral. Part two. That's right. 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:20.479 This is this is a fun one. So let's let's 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:26.640 go ahead and uh and spin around. Welcome to Stuff 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:29.920 to Blow your Mind, the production of My Heart Radio. 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:37.519 Hey you, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:39.800 name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:42.320 back with part two of our series about people spinning 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:46.240 around in circles. That's right. Part one was was essentially 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:50.040 a breakdown of of why we've why we feel dizzy 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:53.600 when we spin around in circles, and then we we 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:55.440 also went in just a little bit into the art 0:00:55.680 --> 0:00:58.800 of spinning around in circles, particularly as it relates to 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:03.600 figure skaters and ballet dancers. Now, while figure skaters and 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:08.039 ballet dancers, I would say regularly practice feats that that 0:01:08.120 --> 0:01:11.080 I am in awe of in terms of, you know, 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:14.199 their athleticism and their ability to spin around and stuff 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:18.320 and and still execute precise movements afterwards, I gotta say 0:01:18.360 --> 0:01:21.560 there's one thing that that maybe makes them not that impressive, 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:23.240 which is, you know, they only spend for a few 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:26.080 seconds at a time. What if you were to spin 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:30.080 around in a dance performance that lasted for minutes and 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:34.480 minutes on end, maybe hours, who knows. Yeah, And in 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:38.240 this we're getting into the realm of of the whirling 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:42.640 dervishes of of Sufi mysticism, the Sufi whirlers, uh that 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:46.399 you find mostly isolated in in modern day Turkey, but 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:48.760 in some other regions as well. And if you haven't 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:52.680 seen footage of this and and certainly heard the corresponding music, 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:55.720 I really encourage you to to check it out because 0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:59.520 it is. It is phenomenal. It is just to watch it. 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:04.200 It's a very meditative experience I find. I've always found 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:07.600 this very intriguing. I think, you know, I've seen some 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:10.120 clips on TV at some point, and then back in 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:12.720 the nineties, at one point, because I was getting increasingly 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:15.239 into world music and into Dead Can dance and stuff, 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:19.280 I picked up an album off Hemisphere Records titled Mevlana 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:23.400 Music of the Whirling Dervishes, and and really I was 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:26.919 blown away by it, uh I I looked it up again, 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:31.080 and I don't think this particular album is available anymore, 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:35.320 but you can find the The particular musician is a 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:39.120 Nesa Usual. That's an easy I h u z e 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:42.760 L and uh A couple of their albums are available 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:46.200 to stream. Uh, it's it's it's really interesting stuff. Now. 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:49.360 I'm not all that well versed in Middle Eastern music, 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:52.840 but it does seem to have this very rhythmic quality 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:56.160 that inspires a certain kind of circular movement even in 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:59.440 the mind. Oh I, I really enjoyed the music too 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:01.800 when you shared it with me. Uh, I don't know 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:04.720 if I found myself thinking in circular ways. Did you 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:08.000 find yourself ruminating while listening to it? Yeah? I played 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:10.639 some of I played Useels music for several hours while 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:13.839 working on notes for for these episodes the other day, 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:16.880 and yeah, I found it. I mean, granted, you know, 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:18.840 part of it is I am thinking about people spinning 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:21.000 around in circles and then I'm listening to this music 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:24.440 that is, of course uh innately tied to that practice. 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:27.840 But but yeah, I found it. Found it give me 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:30.760 this kind of like calming, circular feeling. And really I 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:35.320 think it it contributed to yesterday being a pretty good day. Nice. Yeah, 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:41.119 watching Sufi whirling dances is um, it's kind of hard 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:44.600 to describe exactly the feeling of what's so beautiful about it. 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:48.560 It is not like a lot of other dances that 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:52.440 um that operate by sort of like surprise, where you 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:55.480 know you don't know what moves someone's going to do next. 0:03:56.080 --> 0:03:59.600 The Sufi whirling dances are extremely monotonous. I mean, they're 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:02.840 basically just There might be versions that offers something else, 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:06.840 but the versions I've seen mainly just feature this repetitive 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:10.840 turning in place. And yet it is extremely beautiful as 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:12.840 a form of dance. Uh, And I think it has 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:14.920 something to do with the thing I want to come 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:17.320 back to later in this episode, which is the particular 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:21.080 movement of the dancers skirts as they twirl. There's a 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:24.680 kind of like beautiful geometry to that. And uh, there 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:27.640 was actually a paper I came across the addressed how 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:32.000 that happens. But um, but yeah, it's strange that that's 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:36.920 such a in a way conceptually straightforward type of dance 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:40.159 would be so interesting to watch for so long. Yeah, 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:42.719 there's a real fluidity to it, and and you know, 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:45.559 we were talking about watching it because of course that's 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:49.000 that's that's my experience with it, uh, seeing it done, 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:51.840 listening to the music, and it's my understanding that if 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:54.000 you you know, if you're if you're to travel to 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:56.960 say Turkey, you can certainly as a tourist see some 0:04:57.040 --> 0:04:59.520 of it today, observe it as a tourist, But of 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:04.839 course it's really based more in the experience of the dance, 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:06.640 of being the dancer. And I guess you can say 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:08.279 that's kind of the case with a lot of dance, 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:11.919 like it's there's dance to watch, but the dance is 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:15.279 also the experience, and to be the dancer is to 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:18.599 be within the system of movement. Yeah, so let's let's 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:21.960 unpack things a little bit. Yes, Sufi Islam. Sufi Ism 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:25.040 is the mystical branch of Islam in which the practitioner 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:30.480 seeks divine love and knowledge through the direct experience of God. Uh. 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:34.800 It entails different mystical paths towards this goal, but the 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:36.560 one we're gonna be talking about here is, of course, 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:40.680 this form of dance. The words sufi itself derives from 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:44.920 the Arabic for wool, as early Islamic aesthetics individuals who 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:48.839 practice the denial of physical or psychological desires dressed in 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:54.320 woolen garments and Islamic mysticism is also known is uh 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:57.839 tassa wolf, which literally means to dress in wool. The 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:01.279 movement originally stirred up between six sixty one and seven 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:05.039 forty nine c e. Apparently in response to perceptions of 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:09.160 worldliness in Islamic practice at the time. I find it 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:14.120 interesting that the mystical tradition can sort of arise as 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:17.680 a form of almost any religion, like that, you can 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:21.000 take almost any religion and then there will there can 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:24.720 be a mysticism interpretation of it, which again is often 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:29.840 focused on um individual experience and people having practices such 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:32.840 as meditation or other practices to alter the state of 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:36.839 consciousness to make themselves have what they believe to be 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:40.360 a direct experience of the divine in some way. And 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:44.159 that there there's Christian mysticism, and there's Islamic mysticism, and 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:48.680 there's a mystical face of almost any religion you can imagine. Yeah, absolutely, 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:50.720 and and and of course in pretty much any religion 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:52.599 you can look at to it. It's a divide that 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:58.200 can create problems that can can create conflict as well. Um. 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:01.560 So again out of the US, out of Sufi Islam, 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:06.040 we we see the Sufi whirling emerge. And I imagine 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:08.039 a lot of you out there have heard of a 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:11.120 key individual in this, and that is the Persian poet Roomi, 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:15.040 who lived twelve h seven through twelve seventy three, and 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:17.880 he himself was a Sufi mystic. Again, he dies in 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:22.720 twelve seventy three see and afterwards his followers and his 0:07:22.800 --> 0:07:27.520 son Sultan Wallad create the MeV Levy Order, an organization 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:32.000 of whirling dervishes who sought to experience God through elaborate 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:35.800 rituals of dance and music. And this was formed in 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:39.800 thirteen twelve in the Turkish city of Kanya. Now, many 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:42.320 of you may have seen, you know, images and videos 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:45.120 of of Sufi whirling and uh. And you know the 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:49.360 dervishes where these tall camel hair hats that are said 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:53.840 to represent the tombstone of the ego, which I really like, uh. 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:56.840 And then they have these wide white skirts that twirl around. 0:07:57.160 --> 0:08:00.000 And of course these are very visually impressive and certainly 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:03.160 play on that concept of whirling and turning, but these 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:06.680 are said to represent the egos shroud. Oh I love that. 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:09.280 And it's funny because that might be a little bit 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:12.520 more literal than people would think. Well, I mean, I 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:15.240 guess you can be. You can't have something that's too 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:17.120 literal if you're talking about the ego, which is an 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:21.280 intangible concept. But um, the way in which it is 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:24.200 somewhat literal is that it's not just you are wearing 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:28.040 a symbolic piece of dress, but that when you watch 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:32.320 somebody practicing a sufi whirling dance, you will, I think 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:35.560 very often find yourself not looking at the person and 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:38.800 not looking at their face, but looking at the twirling skirt. 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:42.400 The twirling skirt almost becomes the persons. So it's a 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:49.479 kind of second order vanishing of the identity or the ego. Yeah. Yeah, 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:53.000 So the big ceremony here is the semi ceremony, and 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:56.040 in the in this ceremony, the Dervish dancers rotate anti 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:59.560 clockwise around the vertical access of their bodies while also 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:02.640 rotate aating around the other dancers. It's all set to 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:05.760 this this wonderful music, and it's intended to be a 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:09.880 meditative experience, a highly meditative experience by which for the 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:13.920 dancers their material self falls away and a state of 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:18.560 oneness is experienced. Yes, and so you can obviously look 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:25.479 at the religious, the symbolic, the psychological importance and significance 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:28.280 of this dance. But another way to think about this 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:30.680 dance is just as a physical act. And it comes 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:33.560 back to questions that I, you know that we brought 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:35.600 up in our earlier episode and in the first part 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:38.520 of this series, which is I watch it and I think, 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:41.600 just on a physiological level, how do you do that 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:45.320 without becoming so dizzy that you have to stop? Yeah, 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:47.840 because we're talking about a lot of spinning. You may 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:50.680 have just seen clips of this, but the dancers will 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:54.880 spend continuously for a solid hour with something like thirty 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:59.200 spins per minute the performance. And this they performed this 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:03.240 without experience saying vertico, without you know, feeling dizzy, following 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:07.040 a reported thousand days of training within them. Havev Levie 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:12.200 houses uh to to give another number to you. According 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:15.040 to the Guinness Book of World Records, the most Sufi 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:18.840 whirling revolutions in one hour for a male uh the 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:23.280 record went to um Shafik Ibrahim on January five, two 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:27.480 thousand twelve, for two thousand, nine hundred and five spins 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:32.839 in a single hour. Wow. Yeah, I have no words. 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:35.880 That's that's so many spins. Yeah, it's just it's it's 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:39.720 a tremendous amount of spinning. Um. And and not only 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:43.280 is the individual not like physically ill from it, not 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:46.480 only are they they you know, retaining this uh, this 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:49.320 fluid movement and this elegance, and they're not crashing into 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:52.120 each other the walls. Uh, they're keeping it beautiful. But 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:55.440 they're also uh, you know that they're said to have 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:58.680 this this this meditative experience throughout it all. So it's 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:02.240 not you know, dizzy us it is in many ways 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:06.520 feels like the opposite of of a meditative experience. I mean, 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:08.280 into a certain extent, you could, I guess you compare 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:10.560 some things about it. But but yeah, what whatever, whatever 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:12.800 is going on in the mind of the of the 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:16.440 Sufi whirler, of the of the whirling dervish, it is 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:21.080 not a state of dizzy chaos. Uh. So it's it's fascinating. Yeah, 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:23.560 I mean, I would also think of dizziness as sort 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:26.520 of the opposite of a meditative state. Dizziness makes you 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:30.400 hyper aware of your body and makes it really difficult 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:33.240 to focus your mind, right I guess then the main 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:36.240 comparison would be, well, you're you're living in the now now, 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:40.840 if you're if you're you're clutching your head on the ground, 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:43.280 but not in the way that you want to feel 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:46.240 in the moment. So I looked into this and I 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:50.040 found an interesting paper titled a Possible role of prolonged 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:54.680 whirling episodes on structural plasticity of the cortical networks and 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:59.920 altered vertigo perception the cortex of Sufi Whirling Dervishes by 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:03.120 colmac at All, and this was this was combining researchers 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:07.080 from New Zealand, the Netherlands and Turkey particularly. Their study 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:12.160 looked at quote potential structural cortical plasticity unquote in Sufi 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:15.959 Whirling Dervishes. These s w d s as the the abbreviation, 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:19.880 because again we're talking about a level of sustained spinning 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:22.560 that most healthy adults are not going to be able 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:26.480 to handle without experiencing vertigo. As they put it, quote, 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:31.040 this unique whirling based meditation style of Sufi Whirling Dervishes 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:37.160 achieves extraordinary physiological outcomes that overcome vertico and balance impairment, 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:41.120 which would be expected after prolonged times of whirling. So 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:45.000 they looked at quote potential relationship of the motion body 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:48.959 perception related cortical networks and the prolonged term of whirling 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:52.840 ability without vertigo or dizziness. So a note here again 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:55.400 is the vestibular system, which of course we went into 0:12:55.440 --> 0:12:58.840 and defined in the UH in the first episode, you know, 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:01.079 related to the inner ear, in our the inner ear, 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:03.679 in our sense of balance. They point out that vestibular 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:07.360 processing is involved not only in space perception and locomotion, 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:11.120 but also in cognitive perceptions of self. And so there 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:15.000 is this connection, they say, between the vestibular system and 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:18.920 the default mode network as well, something we've also discussed 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:21.839 on the show quite a bit, tied to self awareness, 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:26.559 to consciousness, to embodiment, but also in many cases unhappiness. 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:31.000 You know, this this dwelling on what has happened in 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:33.800 the past, what has happened to me, what is happening 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:37.760 in the footle, happening in UH, to me in the future, etcetera. 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:40.320 And and you know, getting away from that now, nous 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:44.120 that we often associate with a meditative calm UH. The 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:47.480 default mode network, I think, is highly associated with cognitive 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:51.320 patterns that are focused on the self, thinking about self 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:54.840 and making judgments about the self, And I mean, what's 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:58.040 more miserable than that. Yeah. I think it's interesting too 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:01.840 that we're talking about wheeling and spinning, because there's you know, 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:06.400 the sort of thinking associated with the default mode network 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:10.200 sometimes takes the form of a wheel, and other belief systems, 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:13.640 you know, like some some treatments or interpretations of the 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:17.440 like the wheel of being in Buddhism kind of relate 0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:19.280 to this, you know, or just sort of the feeling 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:22.080 of like, oh, I'm on the I'm on the hamster 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:24.480 wheel of my own default mode network right now, I've 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:27.800 got to eject myself from that wheel, uh and do 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:31.760 something with my time. So the question is does prolonged 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:35.480 whirling contribute to structural changes in the networks of the 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:39.120 default mode network and self perception in addition to motion 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:43.120 perception related networks. So the authors point out that previous 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:47.200 studies have observed, first of all, the decreased cortical thickness 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:52.240 and meditator's brains relate to the posterior singulate cortex or 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:56.160 PCC and the default mode network also decreased activity in 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:59.760 the default mode network as well as long and also 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:03.520 they when out long term meditation practices associated with altered 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:08.080 resting brain activity, so long lasting activity changes that persist 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:11.120 in the brain. In a way, you could think about 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:16.480 meditation as a way of practicing control over what the 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:20.920 brain does win at rest, right. Yeah, And you know 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:23.360 it's it's you know, we we've talked about meditation on 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:25.040 the show in the past. I'm sure we'll continue too, 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:29.240 because it is. It can it can feel very elusive 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:30.960 at times, and I think part of it comes down 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:33.720 to this connection between the mind and body. You know 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:36.720 that that um. I mean that's why I think a 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:40.200 lot of us find meditation in meditative states or even 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:44.960 the flow state in activities that are physical, you know, 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:49.120 like in h in yoga for instance, um or or 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:52.440 um you know, even you know, other type forms of exercise, 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:55.920 swimming laps, running laps, going for a jog, that sort 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:58.880 of thing. Yes, though I feel like I would identify 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:01.400 more of that meta hate of type flow state in 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:08.160 physical tasks that also require some degree of constant uh 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:11.920 sort of mental engagement, more so than say, jogging does 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:15.480 uh you know, Like I I've heard some people complain 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:19.680 that maybe they can enjoy sports, but they find quote 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:22.640 exercise boring, And I think what they're thinking of is 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:26.920 like running on a treadmill, in which like in which case, um, 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:29.640 you are engaging your body, but you are not. You 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:32.680 are not being faced with tasks. You know, there's not 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:35.920 like any problems for your brain to solve the way 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:38.400 there is when you're say playing a sport or something 0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:42.960 or doing something with um, doing something with like variable 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:46.600 activities throughout, such as like a yoga practice or a 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:50.400 or a you know, a dance routine or something. Yeah. Well, 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:52.040 but I guess if you're like say jogging around the 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:55.240 neighborhood and you're having to solve various problems, right like, Okay, 0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:58.800 I'm gonna not run onto that sidewalk that's all crooked, 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:01.480 I'm gonna jump over that dog, and I'm not going 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:04.480 to step in that that or that. Right though. It's 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:10.280 funny because I feel like that just manifests as extreme annoyance. Yeah, 0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:12.760 I guess, yeah, it can like there's a thin line 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:17.680 sometimes between uh, tasks that are fulfilling and tasks that 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:21.960 are just a chore. I mean, we've talked before about how, um, 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:24.760 sometimes when you're driving in a car, it can make 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:28.160 other people just appear as obstacles to you, and there's 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:31.800 this kind of horrible desensitization that goes on. And we 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:35.280 talked about one reason for that being that um that 0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:39.479 perhaps the you know, updating the body schema to include 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:42.440 the car makes you feel bigger looking at people through 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:46.159 the glass of the windshield, operating on you know, the 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:50.600 different rules of the control traffic versus control foot movements, 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:53.119 those things could be separating you. But I think another 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:55.240 one that maybe we didn't consider enough when we've talked 0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:58.000 about this in the past is just speed, because when 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:00.879 you're out running on the side walk, it seems like 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:03.400 you have a very different relationship to other people than 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:06.800 if you're out walking. When you're out running, you start 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:09.720 to view other people as like obstacles in the same 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:11.400 kind of way you do you're when you're in a car. 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:14.600 You're like persons in my way. They're not even really 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:16.600 a person. This is just like a sack of meat 0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:20.680 that I need to get around. Yeah, you know, I'm 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:24.159 not myself a runner, but I do I get I 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:33.280 get hints of that from other runners sometimes. Thank so 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:35.800 for for this particular study, the authors are going to 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:39.640 look at um at a Sufi whirlers now. One thing 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:43.120 they note though, is that the practice of Mevlevi ceremonies 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:45.800 they're not as robust as they were prior to the 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:49.600 twentieth century due to a secular policies that were enforced. 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:52.600 So a lot of what remains today apparently isn't as 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:56.320 rigorous and is often aimed at at tourist audiences, so 0:18:56.359 --> 0:19:00.560 it's difficult to study quote the traditional physical and spiritual 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:03.439 method involved here. As a result, you know, that's not 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:06.880 a huge sample size they're working with. So they looked 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:12.400 at eight males and two females adults right handed traditional 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:16.440 Sufi whirling dervishes with more than eight years of whirling 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:19.479 meditation experience, so the average was something like ten and 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:22.640 a half years of whirling uh, which I think broke 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:25.600 down to about like two whirling sessions per week to 0:19:25.680 --> 0:19:28.160 keep the practice up. They also had a ten person 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:31.320 control group that was otherwise matched up with the attributes 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:36.200 of of the individuals that were themselves whirlers. They performed 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:38.879 m r I scans and found an average difference in 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:42.840 cortical thickness of point ten millimeters for the left hemisphere 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:45.920 of the brain and point fifteen millimeters for the right 0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:48.600 hemisphere of the brain. So they present this as proof 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:54.440 of structural plasticity induced by the whirling meditations of Sufi 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:58.720 whirling dervishes. Now, one of the take comes in from 0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:01.640 the study is that this sort of information could lead 0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:05.040 to some improvements in vertigo therapy. Uh and I also 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:06.560 imagine it goes back to what we mentioned in the 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:09.000 last episode about the more we understand this sort of thing, 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:12.040 the more we can understand just to how the brain functions, 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:14.240 how the brain can heal itself, that sort of thing. 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:16.720 But they also stress that there's a lot of possibility 0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:20.760 in the the potential mood enhancing effect of the defined 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:25.720 structurally plastinated cortical areas UM and and and how that 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:29.160 is worth consideration. So they point out that the default 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:32.920 mode network is active except when it is suppressed by 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:37.480 other networks or stimulated by other states, and that its activity, 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:42.720 of course, is generally correlated with unhappiness in the human experience. Quote. Therefore, 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:46.200 it is theorized that prolonged periods of gold erected cognitive 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:50.720 processes may decrease the mind wandering activity in the s 0:20:50.920 --> 0:20:54.840 w d's brain because the precunious activity has been decreased. 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:59.240 They also theorized that the suppression of cortical areas related 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:06.120 with the discriminational perception here leads to less selfish egocentric 0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:09.399 behavior and increased levels of happiness. And they think that 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:14.640 the decreased activity in the dorso lateral prefrontal cortex may 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:19.520 contribute to the behavioral attribute of honesty. And additionally, there 0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:22.439 could be a neuro protection advantage here as well, you know, 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:26.719 against the likes of say Alzheimer's and other conditions. Well, 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:29.480 I guess, like a lot of neuroimaging and neurological studies 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:32.159 it it opens up a lot of possibilities that you 0:21:32.160 --> 0:21:35.840 should we should be careful to remember aren't necessarily proven yet, 0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:40.040 but are really interesting and worth looking into with other experiments. Yeah, Like, 0:21:40.040 --> 0:21:42.400 there are a lot of questions about the default mode network, 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:44.920 for example, and and just about anything else you could 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:47.640 point out in the human brain. Yeah, we've even talked 0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:49.479 about how there are some people, I think, who question 0:21:49.560 --> 0:21:52.360 the validity of the default mode network as a coherent 0:21:52.440 --> 0:21:55.640 concept and like is this really a thing? But um, 0:21:56.560 --> 0:21:58.679 but but there are others who advocate for it. So 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:01.440 I don't know how to sort that question out. Yeah, 0:22:01.520 --> 0:22:03.560 I would say that some of the key takeaways from 0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:05.520 the study though, or that that, first of all, this 0:22:05.600 --> 0:22:09.840 incredible act of spinning by by the Sufi whirlers, it 0:22:09.960 --> 0:22:12.720 is it is producing like physical changes in the brain, 0:22:12.840 --> 0:22:17.160 like there is there is neural plasticity involved here, and 0:22:17.520 --> 0:22:20.280 you know it is. It is also a meditative state 0:22:20.359 --> 0:22:22.879 they enter into and you don't have to it's not 0:22:22.960 --> 0:22:25.879 really a stretch to say that. Yes, the meditative states, 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:30.400 repetitive medi meditative states, meditative meditative states that are engaged 0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:32.840 in with with a fair amount of frequency that has 0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:37.960 an effect on your resting um neural level. Uh So 0:22:38.240 --> 0:22:40.679 all of that is, you know, really fascinating, makes me, 0:22:41.160 --> 0:22:44.520 you know, respect this tradition even more and I have 0:22:44.640 --> 0:22:47.479 to say, it makes me want to spend more in 0:22:47.600 --> 0:22:51.480 my life. Um well, wait, I mean it seems difficult 0:22:51.480 --> 0:22:53.080 that like, is it a thing where you'd have to 0:22:53.119 --> 0:22:55.480 do it a lot to get used to it enough 0:22:55.520 --> 0:22:57.600 to get the benefits from it? Is that the case? 0:22:58.200 --> 0:23:00.800 I guess? I mean, yes, that see it certainly too 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:03.600 well to spin at their level, it requires I mean 0:23:03.760 --> 0:23:06.720 they they prescribe what what I say, a thousand days 0:23:06.800 --> 0:23:09.280 of of practice to get to the point where you 0:23:09.280 --> 0:23:13.600 could actually partake of this ceremony. Um. But I mean 0:23:13.680 --> 0:23:16.040 just in terms of, like, on on on one level, 0:23:16.040 --> 0:23:18.320 it may I want to do it just because I 0:23:18.320 --> 0:23:20.840 I fail at it so much. Now, Like the idea 0:23:21.320 --> 0:23:24.200 that I can change my brain, that I can change 0:23:24.560 --> 0:23:28.280 myself to spend better, like to do not feel like 0:23:28.400 --> 0:23:30.359