1 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. This is 2 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday time 3 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: for the Vault. Today's episode originally published December tenth. It's 4 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: like a circle in a spiral. Part two. That's right. 5 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:20,479 Speaker 1: This is this is a fun one. So let's let's 6 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: go ahead and uh and spin around. Welcome to Stuff 7 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind, the production of My Heart Radio. 8 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 1: Hey you, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 9 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're 10 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: back with part two of our series about people spinning 11 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 1: around in circles. That's right. Part one was was essentially 12 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: a breakdown of of why we've why we feel dizzy 13 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: when we spin around in circles, and then we we 14 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: also went in just a little bit into the art 15 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: of spinning around in circles, particularly as it relates to 16 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: figure skaters and ballet dancers. Now, while figure skaters and 17 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 1: ballet dancers, I would say regularly practice feats that that 18 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: I am in awe of in terms of, you know, 19 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,199 Speaker 1: their athleticism and their ability to spin around and stuff 20 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 1: and and still execute precise movements afterwards, I gotta say 21 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: there's one thing that that maybe makes them not that impressive, 22 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: which is, you know, they only spend for a few 23 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: seconds at a time. What if you were to spin 24 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: around in a dance performance that lasted for minutes and 25 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: minutes on end, maybe hours, who knows. Yeah, And in 26 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: this we're getting into the realm of of the whirling 27 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: dervishes of of Sufi mysticism, the Sufi whirlers, uh that 28 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: you find mostly isolated in in modern day Turkey, but 29 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: in some other regions as well. And if you haven't 30 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: seen footage of this and and certainly heard the corresponding music, 31 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: I really encourage you to to check it out because 32 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: it is. It is phenomenal. It is just to watch it. 33 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: It's a very meditative experience I find. I've always found 34 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: this very intriguing. I think, you know, I've seen some 35 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: clips on TV at some point, and then back in 36 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: the nineties, at one point, because I was getting increasingly 37 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,239 Speaker 1: into world music and into Dead Can dance and stuff, 38 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: I picked up an album off Hemisphere Records titled Mevlana 39 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: Music of the Whirling Dervishes, and and really I was 40 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 1: blown away by it, uh I I looked it up again, 41 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 1: and I don't think this particular album is available anymore, 42 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: but you can find the The particular musician is a 43 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: Nesa Usual. That's an easy I h u z e 44 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: L and uh A couple of their albums are available 45 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: to stream. Uh, it's it's it's really interesting stuff. Now. 46 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 1: I'm not all that well versed in Middle Eastern music, 47 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: but it does seem to have this very rhythmic quality 48 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: that inspires a certain kind of circular movement even in 49 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: the mind. Oh I, I really enjoyed the music too 50 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 1: when you shared it with me. Uh, I don't know 51 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: if I found myself thinking in circular ways. Did you 52 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: find yourself ruminating while listening to it? Yeah? I played 53 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:10,639 Speaker 1: some of I played Useels music for several hours while 54 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,839 Speaker 1: working on notes for for these episodes the other day, 55 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: and yeah, I found it. I mean, granted, you know, 56 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: part of it is I am thinking about people spinning 57 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: around in circles and then I'm listening to this music 58 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: that is, of course uh innately tied to that practice. 59 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: But but yeah, I found it. Found it give me 60 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: this kind of like calming, circular feeling. And really I 61 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: think it it contributed to yesterday being a pretty good day. Nice. Yeah, 62 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:41,119 Speaker 1: watching Sufi whirling dances is um, it's kind of hard 63 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: to describe exactly the feeling of what's so beautiful about it. 64 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: It is not like a lot of other dances that 65 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: um that operate by sort of like surprise, where you 66 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: know you don't know what moves someone's going to do next. 67 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: The Sufi whirling dances are extremely monotonous. I mean, they're 68 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: basically just There might be versions that offers something else, 69 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: but the versions I've seen mainly just feature this repetitive 70 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: turning in place. And yet it is extremely beautiful as 71 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: a form of dance. Uh, And I think it has 72 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: something to do with the thing I want to come 73 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: back to later in this episode, which is the particular 74 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: movement of the dancers skirts as they twirl. There's a 75 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: kind of like beautiful geometry to that. And uh, there 76 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: was actually a paper I came across the addressed how 77 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: that happens. But um, but yeah, it's strange that that's 78 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 1: such a in a way conceptually straightforward type of dance 79 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: would be so interesting to watch for so long. Yeah, 80 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 1: there's a real fluidity to it, and and you know, 81 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,559 Speaker 1: we were talking about watching it because of course that's 82 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: that's that's my experience with it, uh, seeing it done, 83 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,840 Speaker 1: listening to the music, and it's my understanding that if 84 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: you you know, if you're if you're to travel to 85 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: say Turkey, you can certainly as a tourist see some 86 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: of it today, observe it as a tourist, But of 87 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 1: course it's really based more in the experience of the dance, 88 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: of being the dancer. And I guess you can say 89 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 1: that's kind of the case with a lot of dance, 90 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,919 Speaker 1: like it's there's dance to watch, but the dance is 91 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 1: also the experience, and to be the dancer is to 92 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 1: be within the system of movement. Yeah, so let's let's 93 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: unpack things a little bit. Yes, Sufi Islam. Sufi Ism 94 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 1: is the mystical branch of Islam in which the practitioner 95 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 1: seeks divine love and knowledge through the direct experience of God. Uh. 96 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: It entails different mystical paths towards this goal, but the 97 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 1: one we're gonna be talking about here is, of course, 98 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: this form of dance. The words sufi itself derives from 99 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 1: the Arabic for wool, as early Islamic aesthetics individuals who 100 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 1: practice the denial of physical or psychological desires dressed in 101 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: woolen garments and Islamic mysticism is also known is uh 102 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 1: tassa wolf, which literally means to dress in wool. The 103 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 1: movement originally stirred up between six sixty one and seven 104 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 1: forty nine c e. Apparently in response to perceptions of 105 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 1: worldliness in Islamic practice at the time. I find it 106 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: interesting that the mystical tradition can sort of arise as 107 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: a form of almost any religion, like that, you can 108 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: take almost any religion and then there will there can 109 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 1: be a mysticism interpretation of it, which again is often 110 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 1: focused on um individual experience and people having practices such 111 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:32,840 Speaker 1: as meditation or other practices to alter the state of 112 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 1: consciousness to make themselves have what they believe to be 113 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 1: a direct experience of the divine in some way. And 114 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 1: that there there's Christian mysticism, and there's Islamic mysticism, and 115 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: there's a mystical face of almost any religion you can imagine. Yeah, absolutely, 116 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 1: and and and of course in pretty much any religion 117 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 1: you can look at to it. It's a divide that 118 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: can create problems that can can create conflict as well. Um. 119 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: So again out of the US, out of Sufi Islam, 120 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 1: we we see the Sufi whirling emerge. And I imagine 121 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 1: a lot of you out there have heard of a 122 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: key individual in this, and that is the Persian poet Roomi, 123 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: who lived twelve h seven through twelve seventy three, and 124 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: he himself was a Sufi mystic. Again, he dies in 125 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: twelve seventy three see and afterwards his followers and his 126 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: son Sultan Wallad create the MeV Levy Order, an organization 127 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: of whirling dervishes who sought to experience God through elaborate 128 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: rituals of dance and music. And this was formed in 129 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: thirteen twelve in the Turkish city of Kanya. Now, many 130 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: of you may have seen, you know, images and videos 131 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: of of Sufi whirling and uh. And you know the 132 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: dervishes where these tall camel hair hats that are said 133 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: to represent the tombstone of the ego, which I really like, uh. 134 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: And then they have these wide white skirts that twirl around. 135 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: And of course these are very visually impressive and certainly 136 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: play on that concept of whirling and turning, but these 137 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: are said to represent the egos shroud. Oh I love that. 138 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: And it's funny because that might be a little bit 139 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: more literal than people would think. Well, I mean, I 140 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: guess you can be. You can't have something that's too 141 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: literal if you're talking about the ego, which is an 142 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: intangible concept. But um, the way in which it is 143 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: somewhat literal is that it's not just you are wearing 144 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: a symbolic piece of dress, but that when you watch 145 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: somebody practicing a sufi whirling dance, you will, I think 146 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 1: very often find yourself not looking at the person and 147 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: not looking at their face, but looking at the twirling skirt. 148 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: The twirling skirt almost becomes the persons. So it's a 149 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:49,479 Speaker 1: kind of second order vanishing of the identity or the ego. Yeah. Yeah, 150 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: So the big ceremony here is the semi ceremony, and 151 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: in the in this ceremony, the Dervish dancers rotate anti 152 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: clockwise around the vertical access of their bodies while also 153 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: rotate aating around the other dancers. It's all set to 154 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: this this wonderful music, and it's intended to be a 155 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: meditative experience, a highly meditative experience by which for the 156 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: dancers their material self falls away and a state of 157 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: oneness is experienced. Yes, and so you can obviously look 158 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:25,479 Speaker 1: at the religious, the symbolic, the psychological importance and significance 159 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: of this dance. But another way to think about this 160 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 1: dance is just as a physical act. And it comes 161 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 1: back to questions that I, you know that we brought 162 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: up in our earlier episode and in the first part 163 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: of this series, which is I watch it and I think, 164 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: just on a physiological level, how do you do that 165 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: without becoming so dizzy that you have to stop? Yeah, 166 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 1: because we're talking about a lot of spinning. You may 167 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 1: have just seen clips of this, but the dancers will 168 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: spend continuously for a solid hour with something like thirty 169 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: spins per minute the performance. And this they performed this 170 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: without experience saying vertico, without you know, feeling dizzy, following 171 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: a reported thousand days of training within them. Havev Levie 172 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 1: houses uh to to give another number to you. According 173 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: to the Guinness Book of World Records, the most Sufi 174 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: whirling revolutions in one hour for a male uh the 175 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: record went to um Shafik Ibrahim on January five, two 176 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: thousand twelve, for two thousand, nine hundred and five spins 177 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:32,839 Speaker 1: in a single hour. Wow. Yeah, I have no words. 178 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: That's that's so many spins. Yeah, it's just it's it's 179 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of spinning. Um. And and not only 180 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: is the individual not like physically ill from it, not 181 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: only are they they you know, retaining this uh, this 182 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 1: fluid movement and this elegance, and they're not crashing into 183 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: each other the walls. Uh, they're keeping it beautiful. But 184 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 1: they're also uh, you know that they're said to have 185 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 1: this this this meditative experience throughout it all. So it's 186 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: not you know, dizzy us it is in many ways 187 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: feels like the opposite of of a meditative experience. I mean, 188 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: into a certain extent, you could, I guess you compare 189 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 1: some things about it. But but yeah, what whatever, whatever 190 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: is going on in the mind of the of the 191 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: Sufi whirler, of the of the whirling dervish, it is 192 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 1: not a state of dizzy chaos. Uh. So it's it's fascinating. Yeah, 193 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I would also think of dizziness as sort 194 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: of the opposite of a meditative state. Dizziness makes you 195 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: hyper aware of your body and makes it really difficult 196 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: to focus your mind, right I guess then the main 197 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: comparison would be, well, you're you're living in the now now, 198 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 1: if you're if you're you're clutching your head on the ground, 199 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: but not in the way that you want to feel 200 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: in the moment. So I looked into this and I 201 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: found an interesting paper titled a Possible role of prolonged 202 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 1: whirling episodes on structural plasticity of the cortical networks and 203 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: altered vertigo perception the cortex of Sufi Whirling Dervishes by 204 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: colmac at All, and this was this was combining researchers 205 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 1: from New Zealand, the Netherlands and Turkey particularly. Their study 206 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: looked at quote potential structural cortical plasticity unquote in Sufi 207 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,959 Speaker 1: Whirling Dervishes. These s w d s as the the abbreviation, 208 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: because again we're talking about a level of sustained spinning 209 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 1: that most healthy adults are not going to be able 210 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: to handle without experiencing vertigo. As they put it, quote, 211 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: this unique whirling based meditation style of Sufi Whirling Dervishes 212 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: achieves extraordinary physiological outcomes that overcome vertico and balance impairment, 213 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: which would be expected after prolonged times of whirling. So 214 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: they looked at quote potential relationship of the motion body 215 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,959 Speaker 1: perception related cortical networks and the prolonged term of whirling 216 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: ability without vertigo or dizziness. So a note here again 217 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: is the vestibular system, which of course we went into 218 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 1: and defined in the UH in the first episode, you know, 219 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,079 Speaker 1: related to the inner ear, in our the inner ear, 220 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 1: in our sense of balance. They point out that vestibular 221 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: processing is involved not only in space perception and locomotion, 222 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: but also in cognitive perceptions of self. And so there 223 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: is this connection, they say, between the vestibular system and 224 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: the default mode network as well, something we've also discussed 225 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,839 Speaker 1: on the show quite a bit, tied to self awareness, 226 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:26,559 Speaker 1: to consciousness, to embodiment, but also in many cases unhappiness. 227 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: You know, this this dwelling on what has happened in 228 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: the past, what has happened to me, what is happening 229 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: in the footle, happening in UH, to me in the future, etcetera. 230 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 1: And and you know, getting away from that now, nous 231 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: that we often associate with a meditative calm UH. The 232 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: default mode network, I think, is highly associated with cognitive 233 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 1: patterns that are focused on the self, thinking about self 234 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: and making judgments about the self, And I mean, what's 235 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: more miserable than that. Yeah. I think it's interesting too 236 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: that we're talking about wheeling and spinning, because there's you know, 237 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: the sort of thinking associated with the default mode network 238 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 1: sometimes takes the form of a wheel, and other belief systems, 239 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: you know, like some some treatments or interpretations of the 240 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: like the wheel of being in Buddhism kind of relate 241 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: to this, you know, or just sort of the feeling 242 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: of like, oh, I'm on the I'm on the hamster 243 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: wheel of my own default mode network right now, I've 244 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 1: got to eject myself from that wheel, uh and do 245 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: something with my time. So the question is does prolonged 246 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: whirling contribute to structural changes in the networks of the 247 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: default mode network and self perception in addition to motion 248 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: perception related networks. So the authors point out that previous 249 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: studies have observed, first of all, the decreased cortical thickness 250 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: and meditator's brains relate to the posterior singulate cortex or 251 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: PCC and the default mode network also decreased activity in 252 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: the default mode network as well as long and also 253 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: they when out long term meditation practices associated with altered 254 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: resting brain activity, so long lasting activity changes that persist 255 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: in the brain. In a way, you could think about 256 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: meditation as a way of practicing control over what the 257 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: brain does win at rest, right. Yeah, And you know 258 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: it's it's you know, we we've talked about meditation on 259 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: the show in the past. I'm sure we'll continue too, 260 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: because it is. It can it can feel very elusive 261 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: at times, and I think part of it comes down 262 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: to this connection between the mind and body. You know 263 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: that that um. I mean that's why I think a 264 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 1: lot of us find meditation in meditative states or even 265 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: the flow state in activities that are physical, you know, 266 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: like in h in yoga for instance, um or or 267 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: um you know, even you know, other type forms of exercise, 268 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: swimming laps, running laps, going for a jog, that sort 269 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 1: of thing. Yes, though I feel like I would identify 270 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: more of that meta hate of type flow state in 271 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: physical tasks that also require some degree of constant uh 272 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: sort of mental engagement, more so than say, jogging does 273 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: uh you know, Like I I've heard some people complain 274 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: that maybe they can enjoy sports, but they find quote 275 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: exercise boring, And I think what they're thinking of is 276 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: like running on a treadmill, in which like in which case, um, 277 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: you are engaging your body, but you are not. You 278 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: are not being faced with tasks. You know, there's not 279 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: like any problems for your brain to solve the way 280 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: there is when you're say playing a sport or something 281 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: or doing something with um, doing something with like variable 282 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: activities throughout, such as like a yoga practice or a 283 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: or a you know, a dance routine or something. Yeah. Well, 284 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 1: but I guess if you're like say jogging around the 285 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: neighborhood and you're having to solve various problems, right like, Okay, 286 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: I'm gonna not run onto that sidewalk that's all crooked, 287 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: I'm gonna jump over that dog, and I'm not going 288 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: to step in that that or that. Right though. It's 289 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: funny because I feel like that just manifests as extreme annoyance. Yeah, 290 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, it can like there's a thin line 291 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 1: sometimes between uh, tasks that are fulfilling and tasks that 292 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 1: are just a chore. I mean, we've talked before about how, um, 293 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: sometimes when you're driving in a car, it can make 294 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 1: other people just appear as obstacles to you, and there's 295 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: this kind of horrible desensitization that goes on. And we 296 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: talked about one reason for that being that um that 297 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,479 Speaker 1: perhaps the you know, updating the body schema to include 298 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 1: the car makes you feel bigger looking at people through 299 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,159 Speaker 1: the glass of the windshield, operating on you know, the 300 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: different rules of the control traffic versus control foot movements, 301 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 1: those things could be separating you. But I think another 302 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: one that maybe we didn't consider enough when we've talked 303 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: about this in the past is just speed, because when 304 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 1: you're out running on the side walk, it seems like 305 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 1: you have a very different relationship to other people than 306 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: if you're out walking. When you're out running, you start 307 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: to view other people as like obstacles in the same 308 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 1: kind of way you do you're when you're in a car. 309 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: You're like persons in my way. They're not even really 310 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: a person. This is just like a sack of meat 311 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 1: that I need to get around. Yeah, you know, I'm 312 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: not myself a runner, but I do I get I 313 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: get hints of that from other runners sometimes. Thank so 314 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: for for this particular study, the authors are going to 315 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,640 Speaker 1: look at um at a Sufi whirlers now. One thing 316 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 1: they note though, is that the practice of Mevlevi ceremonies 317 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 1: they're not as robust as they were prior to the 318 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: twentieth century due to a secular policies that were enforced. 319 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: So a lot of what remains today apparently isn't as 320 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: rigorous and is often aimed at at tourist audiences, so 321 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: it's difficult to study quote the traditional physical and spiritual 322 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 1: method involved here. As a result, you know, that's not 323 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,880 Speaker 1: a huge sample size they're working with. So they looked 324 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:12,400 Speaker 1: at eight males and two females adults right handed traditional 325 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,440 Speaker 1: Sufi whirling dervishes with more than eight years of whirling 326 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,479 Speaker 1: meditation experience, so the average was something like ten and 327 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,640 Speaker 1: a half years of whirling uh, which I think broke 328 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: down to about like two whirling sessions per week to 329 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 1: keep the practice up. They also had a ten person 330 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: control group that was otherwise matched up with the attributes 331 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 1: of of the individuals that were themselves whirlers. They performed 332 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 1: m r I scans and found an average difference in 333 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: cortical thickness of point ten millimeters for the left hemisphere 334 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 1: of the brain and point fifteen millimeters for the right 335 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 1: hemisphere of the brain. So they present this as proof 336 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 1: of structural plasticity induced by the whirling meditations of Sufi 337 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: whirling dervishes. Now, one of the take comes in from 338 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,640 Speaker 1: the study is that this sort of information could lead 339 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: to some improvements in vertigo therapy. Uh and I also 340 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: imagine it goes back to what we mentioned in the 341 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: last episode about the more we understand this sort of thing, 342 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: the more we can understand just to how the brain functions, 343 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 1: how the brain can heal itself, that sort of thing. 344 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: But they also stress that there's a lot of possibility 345 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: in the the potential mood enhancing effect of the defined 346 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: structurally plastinated cortical areas UM and and and how that 347 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 1: is worth consideration. So they point out that the default 348 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: mode network is active except when it is suppressed by 349 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: other networks or stimulated by other states, and that its activity, 350 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: of course, is generally correlated with unhappiness in the human experience. Quote. Therefore, 351 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 1: it is theorized that prolonged periods of gold erected cognitive 352 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: processes may decrease the mind wandering activity in the s 353 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: w d's brain because the precunious activity has been decreased. 354 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 1: They also theorized that the suppression of cortical areas related 355 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:06,120 Speaker 1: with the discriminational perception here leads to less selfish egocentric 356 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 1: behavior and increased levels of happiness. And they think that 357 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 1: the decreased activity in the dorso lateral prefrontal cortex may 358 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: contribute to the behavioral attribute of honesty. And additionally, there 359 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,439 Speaker 1: could be a neuro protection advantage here as well, you know, 360 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,719 Speaker 1: against the likes of say Alzheimer's and other conditions. Well, 361 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 1: I guess, like a lot of neuroimaging and neurological studies 362 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 1: it it opens up a lot of possibilities that you 363 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: should we should be careful to remember aren't necessarily proven yet, 364 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: but are really interesting and worth looking into with other experiments. Yeah, Like, 365 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 1: there are a lot of questions about the default mode network, 366 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 1: for example, and and just about anything else you could 367 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,640 Speaker 1: point out in the human brain. Yeah, we've even talked 368 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,479 Speaker 1: about how there are some people, I think, who question 369 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,360 Speaker 1: the validity of the default mode network as a coherent 370 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,640 Speaker 1: concept and like is this really a thing? But um, 371 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:58,679 Speaker 1: but but there are others who advocate for it. So 372 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 1: I don't know how to sort that question out. Yeah, 373 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: I would say that some of the key takeaways from 374 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 1: the study though, or that that, first of all, this 375 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: incredible act of spinning by by the Sufi whirlers, it 376 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: is it is producing like physical changes in the brain, 377 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:17,160 Speaker 1: like there is there is neural plasticity involved here, and 378 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: you know it is. It is also a meditative state 379 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 1: they enter into and you don't have to it's not 380 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 1: really a stretch to say that. Yes, the meditative states, 381 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,400 Speaker 1: repetitive medi meditative states, meditative meditative states that are engaged 382 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: in with with a fair amount of frequency that has 383 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: an effect on your resting um neural level. Uh So 384 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 1: all of that is, you know, really fascinating, makes me, 385 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 1: you know, respect this tradition even more and I have 386 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,479 Speaker 1: to say, it makes me want to spend more in 387 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: my life. Um well, wait, I mean it seems difficult 388 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: that like, is it a thing where you'd have to 389 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: do it a lot to get used to it enough 390 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 1: to get the benefits from it? Is that the case? 391 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: I guess? I mean, yes, that see it certainly too 392 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: well to spin at their level, it requires I mean 393 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: they they prescribe what what I say, a thousand days 394 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: of of practice to get to the point where you 395 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: could actually partake of this ceremony. Um. But I mean 396 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: just in terms of, like, on on on one level, 397 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: it may I want to do it just because I 398 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: I fail at it so much. Now, Like the idea 399 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: that I can change my brain, that I can change 400 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: myself to spend better, like to do not feel like 401 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 1: my soul has been ripped out of my body when 402 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,360 Speaker 1: I spin around five times on a yoga mat. Uh. 403 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: Like that that alone is attractive, you know, the the 404 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,120 Speaker 1: idea that like, yeah, I'm I can I can change 405 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 1: and become this slightly different version of myself. And you know, 406 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: it's also worth noting that. Um. You know, while this 407 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:49,400 Speaker 1: is the most um intriguing and probably the most extreme 408 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,360 Speaker 1: example of spinning dance, there are a lot of spinning 409 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: in circular dance traditions and other regions of the world. 410 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 1: You know, maybe not as intense, but certainly the circular 411 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: form pops up in traditions around the world. So I 412 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: wonder if if just even those cases, you have a 413 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 1: certain level of a flow state and meditative calm that 414 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: overcomes you when you're a part of it. I don't 415 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: have a lot of direct experience with that aside from 416 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 1: what square dancing and p class when I was a kid, 417 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,679 Speaker 1: which is not at all the same thing. God, I 418 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 1: also had to do square dancing and pe and that 419 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 1: was bizarre, absolutely bizarre. It's a terrible time for it, um, 420 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 1: I feel. But at the same time, after looking at 421 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 1: all this, I'm like, yes, they were right to make 422 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 1: us dance around in circles and move our bodies and spin. 423 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 1: Kids need to spend, like we discussed in the previous episode, 424 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: and uh, yeah, why not make them square dance, I guess. 425 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 1: So there's another aspect of Sufi whirling that I wanted 426 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: to talk about because I found a strange paper. I 427 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 1: alluded to this earlier. Uh, but just to reintroduce the 428 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: concept again. So you watch one of these sufi whirling ceremonies, 429 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,479 Speaker 1: and there's the music, and there's just the human factor, 430 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 1: you know, being interested in in other people's religious practices 431 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: and all that. But there's this other aspect that makes 432 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,880 Speaker 1: the dance especially beautiful and interesting, and it's the movement 433 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,640 Speaker 1: of the dancers skirts. Now, you mentioned earlier that there's 434 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 1: this symbolic role of the skirts representing, you know, the 435 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: shroud of the ego, and I think that is there's 436 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: something very much to that even as it comes through 437 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: in the way the dancers look from the outside. But 438 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: there's also something about the skirts that's undeniably a part 439 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 1: of the raw of visual appeal of the dance to 440 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: outside observers. As the dancer twirls, the skirt is sort 441 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 1: of lifted into the air by the centripetal force of 442 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: the rotation, but it is not lifted up in a 443 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 1: perfect uniform circle. Instead, what you get are these odd, 444 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: gorgeous hypnotic patterns of ripples with peaks and troughs, as 445 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: if there were waves in a fluid moving through the fabric. 446 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,959 Speaker 1: And while watching it, it is very easy to just 447 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: space out. It's like it's a visual stimulus that creates 448 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,919 Speaker 1: a feeling that's, at least to me, it's very similar 449 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: to watching the undulations of a jellyfish. Yeah, I agree. 450 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: And so the question is what causes these sort of 451 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:22,919 Speaker 1: mesmerizing patterns of movement in the surface of these turning skirts. 452 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 1: And believe it or not, there is a physics paper 453 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: about this. Uh so. This is called Whirling Skirts and 454 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: Rotating Cones in the New Journal of Physics published by 455 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 1: Jamal Gouvin, j Hannah and Martin Michael Muller, and they 456 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: put a very technical description to these hypnotic movements that 457 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 1: I was just talking about. They call it, They say, 458 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:53,200 Speaker 1: quote steady dihedral e symmetric patterns with sharp peaks may 459 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 1: be observed on a spinning skirt lagging behind the material 460 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 1: flow of the fabric. And so this is quoted in 461 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 1: a in a phys dot Or article by co author 462 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 1: James Hannah. Quote, The dancers don't do much but spin 463 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,880 Speaker 1: around at a fixed speed, but their skirts show these 464 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: very striking, long lived patterns with sharp cusp like features, 465 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: which seem rather counterintuitive. And I think it's partially that 466 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: counterintuitive aspect that makes the skirts so interesting to watch. 467 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 1: There there's a there's a soothing rhythm to how the 468 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 1: skirts move, but they also seem to sort of defy physics. 469 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: They don't look like they're moving in the way that 470 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: they should. Are you watching an example, I'm picturing it 471 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: in my head. Yeah, as as I said here staring 472 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 1: into the zoom camera, I'm I'm imagining that the hypnotic 473 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: circular movements of the dancers. Yeah, yeah, Like sometimes the 474 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: skirts kind of resemble the way that if you watch 475 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:54,719 Speaker 1: a helicopter blade spinning on film, uh, if the shutter 476 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: speed of the camera lines up in the right way 477 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 1: with the rotation uh with you know, with the rotations 478 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,159 Speaker 1: per minute of the helicopter blade, it will look like 479 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 1: the blade is spinning backwards. Yeah, there's a similar kind 480 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 1: of thing that sometimes goes on with the apparent peaks 481 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,959 Speaker 1: and waves in the skirt. So anyway, what what explains this? Well, 482 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: I thought the answer that came up with here was 483 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 1: pretty interesting. They found that the patterns of movement in 484 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: a free flowing, nearly symmetrical cone shaped structure like the 485 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,199 Speaker 1: fabric of a dancers skirt, are largely influenced by the 486 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: Coriolis force. Quote. A perturbative analysis of nearly access symmetric 487 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,959 Speaker 1: cones shows that Coriolis forces are essential and establishing skirt 488 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: like solutions. Skirt like solutions. And I love it when, 489 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: you know, physicists come up with like a physics way 490 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: of describing something that you would never normally hear put 491 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: into those terms. But so Coriolis forces are are themselves 492 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: very interesting. They are responsible for, for example, determining the 493 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: rotation ation of weather patterns in the atmosphere, of Earth. 494 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: The Coriolis effect is a name for the deflection of 495 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: the motion of free flowing materials on a rotating surface. 496 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 1: And this is one of those things that can be 497 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: kind of hard to understand intuitively, but I'll do my 498 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: best with an analogy. Imagine you're trying to play catch 499 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 1: with someone. So you're throwing a baseball back and forth. 500 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: But you're throwing a baseball back and forth on a 501 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 1: merry go round. Suddenly you can't just throw in a 502 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 1: straight line, right, You know. If I'm trying to throw 503 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: to you on the other side of the merry go 504 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 1: round and I throw straight at you, suddenly the ball 505 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 1: from our point of view will appear to curve off 506 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: target in some bizarre way, right, And it's because you're moving. Right, 507 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: I throw the ball in a straight line, it does 508 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 1: go in a straight line, but you move and so 509 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: it looks like the ball just flew off to the 510 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: side in the middle of its uh traveling. And it's 511 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: because we're in a rotating reference frame. A similar thing 512 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: takes place on larger rotating reference frames, such as the 513 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: Earth itself. When you have free flowing patterns of fluid, 514 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: you know, such as weather, you know, it's fluids moving 515 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: through fluids, it's it's clouds or or winds moving through air. 516 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: These are affected by the rotation of the Earth, causing 517 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: winds to typically form clockwise patterns in the northern hemisphere 518 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 1: and counterclockwise patterns in the southern hemisphere. And apparently when 519 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 1: a Sufi dancer twirls, the rotation of the skirt also 520 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 1: gives rise to Coreoli's forces in the patterns of the fabric. 521 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: To quote James hannagg In and that that physic or 522 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: article quote, the flow of a sheet of material is 523 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 1: much more restrictive than the flow of the atmosphere, but 524 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: nonetheless it results in Coriolis forces. What we found was 525 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: that this flow and the associated Coriolis forces plays a 526 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: crucial role in forming the dervish like patterns. And the 527 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: authors actually came up with equations to dis scribe these 528 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: effects in free flowing conical materials like the fabric of 529 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 1: a skirt. And so now you have an equation that 530 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 1: can show you the skirt like solutions. Yeah, we will 531 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 1: not read it out to you have to look it 532 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 1: up for yourself. Because I found a similar situation in 533 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: first episode where we talked about spinning kicks, and I 534 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 1: found a post about the physics of a spin kick. 535 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: But it was just it was there was just no 536 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 1: sense in getting into it because I would just be 537 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: me reading out an equation. But anyway, I don't For 538 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: some reason, I found something oddly beautiful about this study. Yeah, 539 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: I mean, and it's it also seems kind of fitting, right, 540 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 1: given the mystical nature of it, you know, and and 541 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: and the idea of there being this mathematical pattern underlying 542 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: what we see when we uh witness this particular tradition, 543 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: you know. Than now, speaking of cultural traditions about spinning 544 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: around in circles, another one came to mind while we 545 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 1: were getting ready for this episode, and it is something 546 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 1: you may have seen at a baseball game. It is 547 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: the dizzy bat race. You know. I had completely forgotten 548 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: about this until you shared a clip of people doing it. 549 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 1: So this is when the first step is you take 550 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: a baseball bat and you put the I don't know, 551 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 1: the club end on the on the ground does the 552 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 1: end and I don't know, yeah, And and then well 553 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: I guess it. I don't know if it matters. Maybe 554 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 1: maybe it doesn't. But then one end of the bat 555 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: is on the ground and the other end of the 556 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: bat is on your forehead, so you're bending and then yeah, 557 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,479 Speaker 1: and you're bending over and then you start spinning around 558 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 1: three Stooges style around it right, yep, yep, it spin 559 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: around in circles, and then you gotta do something. You 560 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 1: gotta run somewhere. I don't think it really matters after that. 561 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: You just the goal is you get a couple of 562 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: people out of the audience who maybe been having a 563 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: few stadium beers. I mean, that's probably watered down beer, 564 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: but it's still beer. They've got some alcohol in their system. Alcohol. 565 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: It does affect the vestibular system, as we know. Uh. 566 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: And then and then you make it even worse by 567 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: having them spin around a bunch of times and then 568 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: say like, hey, run and try to catch this hot 569 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: dog or something, and they'll typically stumble all over the place. 570 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 1: In one example we were looking at, one of the 571 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: guys runs straight into the stands and falls over the wall. 572 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's quite a wipeout. But then he's right 573 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: back in his feet. Yeah, let you see that. Bra 574 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: So generally, as you said this, this sport is presented 575 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: as a impromptu competition that one has not trained for. 576 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,719 Speaker 1: But based on everything we've discussed here, um, you know 577 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 1: training would be able to help you. Uh. You know, 578 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 1: the untrained performance seems to be key to the dizzy 579 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 1: bat race. But if you were to train for it, 580 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: you could potentially be in a better position to excel 581 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 1: at it. Oh yeah, like training like a Sufi dancer 582 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 1: or like a or like a ballerina or a figure skater. 583 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: You just dizzy bat yourself for hours a day every 584 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 1: day until you can become the ultimate dizzy bat hustler. 585 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,279 Speaker 1: And like nobody knows when you go in that I'm 586 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,320 Speaker 1: going to be better at catching the hot dog or 587 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 1: whatever it is. I don't know why I said hot dog. 588 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 1: I guess that's another thing that's at baseball stadiums. You know, 589 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 1: they may do a hot dog version. I guess one 590 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 1: of the versions I was looking at is like you 591 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 1: do the dizzy bat thing. You you spin around and 592 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 1: then you have to run to like first base and 593 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 1: to see if you can run in a straight line, 594 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 1: and then you're it's your time, right, It's like they 595 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 1: time you on it. So, UM, I have a potential 596 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 1: answer to this. It's not a scientific answer, but I 597 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 1: come to it via another physical activity that involves spinning, 598 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 1: and that's the world of professional wrestling. Um, so I 599 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,759 Speaker 1: knew we'd end up back here. I didn't expect to 600 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: talk about about pro wrestling in this at all. Um beside, well, 601 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,399 Speaker 1: I guess I already did. I did bring it up briefly. Um, 602 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 1: what was the elbow or something from from Japanese wrestling? Yeah, 603 00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 1: like a roaring elbow where you get you spin around 604 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,760 Speaker 1: and do an elbow. It's uh, you know, it's flashy looking. 605 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 1: But but there are a couple of other more famous 606 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 1: spinning maneuvers. So one of them, and tell me if 607 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,360 Speaker 1: you've seen this before, Joe. One is the airplane spin. 608 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,760 Speaker 1: This is when one wrestler puts another in a fireman's carry, 609 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: you know, up on their shoulders, and then they spin 610 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,760 Speaker 1: around more or less like a whirling dervish before dumping 611 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 1: them over and then the ideas you're both dizzy. Okay. 612 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 1: The other version is the giant swing. And in this one, 613 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 1: one wrestler grabs the legs of the other, you know, 614 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: like a wheelbarrow hold, and then spins them around like 615 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 1: a centrifuge and then eventually releases them. And there are 616 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:41,879 Speaker 1: a couple of other variants, but these are the main 617 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 1: spinning moves. So I guess the idea and that the 618 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 1: giant swing is that you are attempting to spin around 619 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 1: until the intracranial pressure of the blood flowing up to 620 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 1: the top of their head kills them. Right. Is that 621 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: an execution move? It's a finishing move, and generally, yeah, 622 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 1: I guess in Mortal Kombat would it would make the 623 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: top of your head fly off and your brains splat 624 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,800 Speaker 1: again against the camera or something. But in pro pro wrestling, 625 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 1: both of these moves generally play out this way, like 626 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 1: you spin your opponent around until they're dizzy. You're dizzy 627 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 1: as well, but then you take advantage and you either 628 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,759 Speaker 1: pin the person or or it gives you a chance 629 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,439 Speaker 1: to do another maneuver on them and then potentially win. 630 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:24,920 Speaker 1: A lot of times it's kind of played up for 631 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,360 Speaker 1: comedy though, like oh, you did the airplane spin, and 632 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: now both people are dizzy and they can't punch each other, 633 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:31,719 Speaker 1: and they're kind of doing a you know, kind of 634 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,239 Speaker 1: a dizzy bat humor spot where like, oh, now we 635 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:36,759 Speaker 1: can't connect it. It's a way to kind of like 636 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,360 Speaker 1: break down the action for a little bit. It seems 637 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,879 Speaker 1: like a move that the bush Whackers would have done, 638 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:47,400 Speaker 1: remember them. Yeah, But you know, I've often dismissed the 639 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 1: move because I think, oh, well, that just makes you 640 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 1: both dizzy. It's not very realistic. What's the point of 641 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,240 Speaker 1: making your opponent really dizzy if you yourself are equally dizzy. 642 00:36:56,040 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 1: But given everything we've talked about here, it absolutely makes 643 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,799 Speaker 1: sense that a wrestler who regular uses a spinny move 644 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 1: or just trains and spinning would be less affected by 645 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,440 Speaker 1: the maneuver and could then, you know, better utilize it 646 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 1: in a match. Of course, the reverse would be true 647 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: as well, right if you in in cafe, within the 648 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 1: within the fiction of pro wrestling, If you knew you 649 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: were going to go up against someone who uses a 650 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:26,840 Speaker 1: move like this, say Hiroshi Hayes or Cesarrow or Daniel Bryant, 651 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 1: you could train and prepare for it so that they 652 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to, you know, to to to to 653 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 1: use it effectively against you. I don't think I don't 654 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 1: think that's ever been used from a wrestling psychology standpoint, 655 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: but it seems like it could be a good angle. 656 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 1: I'm imagining the Ric Flair monologue now, you can't use 657 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 1: that role on me. It's Rolex time. You could have 658 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 1: a training montage of somebody spinning around in circles preparing 659 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 1: for their match, and then you know, making themselves less 660 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,840 Speaker 1: susceptible to the move. But but outside of the fictional 661 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,760 Speaker 1: world of the you know, the match itself. The other question, 662 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: of course, is do wrestlers like the ones I just 663 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: mentioned do they adapt to using the maneuver? You know, 664 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: if you're using an airplane spin or a giant swing 665 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 1: in you know, a couple of times a week or 666 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:18,480 Speaker 1: just regularly, you know, in your matches, do you become 667 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: less susceptible to dizziness? And I couldn't find a real 668 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:24,359 Speaker 1: answer on this. I looked around a little bit for 669 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 1: you know, interviews and all, but I did find footage 670 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: of a dizzy bat competition featuring w w E wrestlers, 671 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 1: and one of the wrestlers was this guy Cesaro who 672 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,719 Speaker 1: who uses this um this giant swing a lot in 673 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 1: his matches and has also i think on one in 674 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,800 Speaker 1: one case he used a hundred revolutions in a single match, 675 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 1: so so yeah, he'll really get spinning. And he has 676 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,879 Speaker 1: another spinning move called a UFO which is basically an 677 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:55,759 Speaker 1: inverted airplane spin. It's also very impressive, uh, just to 678 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,919 Speaker 1: be performed. So it raises like it's it is the question, 679 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:01,760 Speaker 1: how's he going to do in this? In this dizzy 680 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:06,319 Speaker 1: bat competition? And you know, this is very unscientific. He 681 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,239 Speaker 1: only was competing against I think two other people, but 682 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:13,000 Speaker 1: he did win. He had better time doing the dizzy 683 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 1: bat thing and then running out the first base. He 684 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:19,480 Speaker 1: he had better time than either competitor. That's so that's interesting. Yeah, 685 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,719 Speaker 1: so there you go. Maybe maybe it does. Uh, maybe 686 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 1: there is a way to prepare for the dizzy bat 687 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,960 Speaker 1: competition and maybe spinning around a lot in pro wrestling 688 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,759 Speaker 1: does produce these results. I mean, it makes complete sense 689 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 1: based on everything we've looked at. I think what it 690 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,920 Speaker 1: means is that Cesarro has a future in ice skating 691 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 1: or ballet probably, so. I mean, professional dance and professional 692 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:46,879 Speaker 1: wrestling have a lot in common. And uh, I mean 693 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,239 Speaker 1: he's a hoss. He could do it well. What that 694 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,520 Speaker 1: makes me wonder is are there any well known pro 695 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,840 Speaker 1: wrestlers who were also professional dancers in something that is 696 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,160 Speaker 1: acknowledged as dance. Um, I don't know, I'm not sure 697 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 1: on that offhand, it seems like they're they're m be. 698 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 1: I mean, you have wrestlers coming in with all sorts 699 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 1: of backgrounds, Um, you know, certainly gymnastics backgrounds in some cases. 700 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 1: So uh, I'm sure there's there's one out there that 701 00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:12,680 Speaker 1: has some sort of a dance background. Hulkster was he 702 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 1: also a square dancing champion. I don't know if the 703 00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:20,880 Speaker 1: Hulkster was a square great dancing champion now, um, But Mike, 704 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 1: I'm trying to remember if he ever did the giant 705 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,239 Speaker 1: swing he might have I can't recall. While on the 706 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:29,160 Speaker 1: subject of of airplane spins as a as an offensive move, 707 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,920 Speaker 1: I guess we've come full circle to like in Bison territory. 708 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 1: There was another thing I was thinking about when we 709 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,440 Speaker 1: were doing this episode that was, um, it was a 710 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:40,520 Speaker 1: Simpsons episode with a certain type of spinning torture as hazing. 711 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,840 Speaker 1: It's the episode where Barton Lisa get enrolled in a 712 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,800 Speaker 1: military academy and there's a scene where they're being hazed 713 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,680 Speaker 1: and they're apparently strapped to airplane propellers and then the 714 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,760 Speaker 1: the airplane runs, so they like spin around with the propeller. 715 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:57,799 Speaker 1: That's a different kind of spinning than we're usually talking about, 716 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:01,640 Speaker 1: because we're talking about spinning along a different axis of 717 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,439 Speaker 1: the body. This would be again more like the giant swing. 718 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,279 Speaker 1: This would be like centrifuging you. Uh. And while it's 719 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,799 Speaker 1: funny in the show, I think I would have to 720 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:15,680 Speaker 1: say my suspicion is that this would be absolutely one fatal. 721 00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,480 Speaker 1: In reality, it was just like, you know, shove all 722 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: the blood in your body up to the top of 723 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,160 Speaker 1: your head and kill you. Yeah, I mean it's it 724 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,719 Speaker 1: basically comes back to the Moonraker example that we talked 725 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 1: about earlier, you know, where there's a scene and Moonraker 726 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:32,080 Speaker 1: where James Bond is put in a centrifuge as torture, right, Yeah, 727 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,839 Speaker 1: the G Forces simulator for astronauts. Yeah, except I think 728 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,600 Speaker 1: that's different because the way his body is oriented, the 729 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 1: way I thought it was supposed to be, was that 730 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,759 Speaker 1: the g forces would be operating. The other way would 731 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:45,960 Speaker 1: be like taking the blood out of his head, you know, 732 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,760 Speaker 1: and pulling it towards his feet like would normally Hugh, 733 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:52,799 Speaker 1: I don't know. Well, actually I don't know, because if 734 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,759 Speaker 1: the astronauts are the astronauts are usually exeeded, what with 735 00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:02,080 Speaker 1: the back of their bodies face saying the facing the 736 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,400 Speaker 1: the exhaust, right, So maybe that would just mean that 737 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 1: the blood is pulled not up or down your body, 738 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:10,799 Speaker 1: but towards the back of your body, towards the back 739 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,239 Speaker 1: of your skull. Yeah, I guess, And it would also 740 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 1: depend on the maneuver you're taking in the airplane. But 741 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,319 Speaker 1: but certainly when you're talking about the effects of of 742 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,960 Speaker 1: G force on the blood flow and the body, particularly 743 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,160 Speaker 1: blood flow to the brain, that's where you can get 744 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,400 Speaker 1: into hypoxia territory where not enough blood and oxygen is 745 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:32,160 Speaker 1: reaching the brain, and you can certainly lose consciousness that way, um, 746 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:34,440 Speaker 1: which is of course extra dangerous if you are also 747 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,960 Speaker 1: piloting an aircraft. Um, especially if you're piloting an aircraft 748 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,120 Speaker 1: that is to say, in a spin or something like that. 749 00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:46,040 Speaker 1: So um, yeah, the idea of this being a potentially 750 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:51,200 Speaker 1: lethal way to torment parton Lisa, absolutely. What is there's 751 00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:53,960 Speaker 1: some movie where that's there's like a scene where a 752 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 1: character has to execute a move in an airplane or 753 00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,000 Speaker 1: a spaceship or something that they know is going to 754 00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,840 Speaker 1: cause them to lose asciousness student forces and they have 755 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 1: to like recover in time. Do you does that ringing 756 00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,560 Speaker 1: a bell for you? Oh? It vaguely does. I mean 757 00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:10,440 Speaker 1: this kind of thing comes up a fair amount in 758 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:14,759 Speaker 1: in films about about to say, fighter crafts and all, 759 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:16,880 Speaker 1: so it could have been some of the usual suspects. 760 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:19,279 Speaker 1: They're like the like top Gun or that one where 761 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:23,080 Speaker 1: Clint Eastwood flies s R seventy one or some version 762 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,959 Speaker 1: of it. I don't know that one. Yeah, I forget 763 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:27,440 Speaker 1: it was. I always wanted to watch it as a 764 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,160 Speaker 1: kid because I remember really loving the SR seventy one 765 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,920 Speaker 1: and the the SR seventy one Blackbird, which was right, 766 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,120 Speaker 1: you know, it was a reconnaissance aircraft that could fly 767 00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:39,960 Speaker 1: super fast, super high altitude that um, I think you 768 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:41,799 Speaker 1: got it a pretty high altitude as well. Not to 769 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:43,719 Speaker 1: be confused with the YouTube which just does you know, 770 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:48,360 Speaker 1: really long wings and his high altitude reconnaissance. But the 771 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,840 Speaker 1: SR seventy one was beautiful and the he's supposed to 772 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,440 Speaker 1: be flying a fighter plane in this in this film 773 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:56,440 Speaker 1: that's based on the SR seventy one, or maybe they 774 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:58,560 Speaker 1: use an SR seventy one stand in. And I used 775 00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:00,799 Speaker 1: to see the VHS copy think oh that that looks 776 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,040 Speaker 1: like such a great movie, and I think later I 777 00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:06,319 Speaker 1: did see it, and it's it's not great, but it 778 00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:08,080 Speaker 1: has a cool plane in it. So what can you 779 00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:10,480 Speaker 1: do but to come back to video games. Certainly, anyone 780 00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,160 Speaker 1: who's ever played a flight simulator you know that, uh, 781 00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,840 Speaker 1: if you you take on too many G forces, the 782 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:17,919 Speaker 1: screen is gonna go black or the screen is gonna 783 00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,080 Speaker 1: go red. You know you're gonna potitionally black out or 784 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,920 Speaker 1: red out based on the G forces. Oh and by 785 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:26,840 Speaker 1: the way, that Clint Eatwood movie was two Firefox. I 786 00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:29,120 Speaker 1: had to look it up to make sure that I was, uh, 787 00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:34,760 Speaker 1: you know, giving everybody the uh, the the full recommend there. 788 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:39,200 Speaker 1: Directed by Clint Eastwood, starring Clint Eastwood. Um, I would 789 00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,520 Speaker 1: have had Ronald Lacy in it, uh of Raiders of 790 00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 1: the Lost Ark fame, who played U, you know, the 791 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:50,520 Speaker 1: villainous taught uh the s S officer. Wait what, oh, 792 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,279 Speaker 1: I see you. I'm confusing this the name of the 793 00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:55,240 Speaker 1: movie you're talking about with the movie that I watched 794 00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:59,200 Speaker 1: as a child called fire Birds, not Firefox. This was 795 00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:04,480 Speaker 1: a helicopter action movie starring Nicolas Cage and yeah, Nicolas 796 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:08,040 Speaker 1: Cage and Tommy Lee Jones and Sean Young and I 797 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:11,560 Speaker 1: think some other recognizable character actors. And I remember there's 798 00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,600 Speaker 1: a scene where Nicolas Cage has to like drive a 799 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,399 Speaker 1: car with one of his eyes covered up looking through 800 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:22,040 Speaker 1: a periscope in order to train his brain. Oh nice, Well, 801 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:24,279 Speaker 1: that's a perfect place to close out here, because so 802 00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,000 Speaker 1: much of what we've talked about it comes down to 803 00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:29,440 Speaker 1: training the brain um of the brain, becoming used to 804 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:33,400 Speaker 1: what the body is is going through and and altering 805 00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,800 Speaker 1: the way that it understands the signals that are delivered 806 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,400 Speaker 1: to it. All right, we're gonna go ahead and close 807 00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:41,520 Speaker 1: out these episodes here then. Um, obviously we'd love to 808 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:44,640 Speaker 1: hear from everybody out there about these episodes. You know, 809 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:48,840 Speaker 1: what are your experiences with spinning around in circles related 810 00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,840 Speaker 1: to say, dance? Uh? Do we have skaters and dancers 811 00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:54,800 Speaker 1: and I know we have at least one uh individual 812 00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:56,799 Speaker 1: listens to show with the ballet background. We'd love to 813 00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:58,960 Speaker 1: hear from them on this. Um. Also, do we have 814 00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,880 Speaker 1: any Sufi listeners who would like to chime in on 815 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:05,840 Speaker 1: either the experience of the Sufi whirling or just the 816 00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:11,040 Speaker 1: place that it has within the religion. Uh, you know, basically, 817 00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:12,880 Speaker 1: any any anything you have to add or if you 818 00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:16,160 Speaker 1: just have stuff about video games and movies. Will also 819 00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:18,759 Speaker 1: be happy to listen to you on on that front 820 00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,520 Speaker 1: as well. In the meantime, if you like to check 821 00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:23,480 Speaker 1: out other episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, you 822 00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:25,320 Speaker 1: know where to find it. You can find it anywhere 823 00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:27,200 Speaker 1: you get a podcast and wherever that happens to be. 824 00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:30,279 Speaker 1: If they let you rate, review and subscribe because that 825 00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:32,359 Speaker 1: helps us out. Go to Stuff to Blow your Mind 826 00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:34,040 Speaker 1: dot com and that will shoot you over to the 827 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:36,360 Speaker 1: I heart listing for our page. There's a store button. 828 00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:37,560 Speaker 1: Go there if you want to buy a shirt with 829 00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,120 Speaker 1: a monster or a logo on it. And uh, I 830 00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:42,279 Speaker 1: I know some of you are probably intrigued by the 831 00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:46,120 Speaker 1: mention of the of the Whirling Dervishes, the video and 832 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,640 Speaker 1: the and of course the music. I'm gonna put a 833 00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:52,440 Speaker 1: post up about that at my my website, Samooda music 834 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,279 Speaker 1: dot com. Uh that's just a little impersonal blog that 835 00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:59,319 Speaker 1: I do, uh you know, the low key blogging I 836 00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,480 Speaker 1: call it. But I'll do a post there about about 837 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:04,200 Speaker 1: the music that I'll have a few links for you 838 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,239 Speaker 1: in some bedded video that you can check out if 839 00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,640 Speaker 1: you so desire. Huge thanks as always to our excellent 840 00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:13,160 Speaker 1: audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you'd like to get 841 00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:15,480 Speaker 1: in touch with us with feedback on this episode or 842 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,520 Speaker 1: any other, to suggest topic for the future, or just 843 00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,960 Speaker 1: to say hi, you can email us at contact at 844 00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:32,520 Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow 845 00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:35,080 Speaker 1: Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For more 846 00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:37,680 Speaker 1: podcasts for My heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 847 00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:51,680 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.