Speaker 1: Belgium's data privacy watchdog is accusing Facebook of unprecedented monitoring
Speaker 1: of the browsing habits of millions of people in Belgium,
Speaker 1: regardless of whether they're signed up for the service or not.
Speaker 1: The Privacy Commission is seeking a court order forcing Facebook
Speaker 1: to stop any collection of data for advertising purposes and
Speaker 1: providing misleading information to users, under the threat of a
Speaker 1: two nine thousand dollar daily penalty. The company said it
Speaker 1: disagreed with the allegation allegations. Joining us is Don Applin
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Law, Managing Editor for Privacy and Data. Don Facebook
Speaker 1: has been a target for Belgium's Data Protection Commission since
Speaker 1: at least and it's gone to court. Tell us what
Speaker 1: happened when a court ordered it to stop storing non
Speaker 1: users personal data. Well, Facebook kind of objected to the
Speaker 1: fact that a Belgian court was even looking at it,
Speaker 1: and appealed, excuse me, it's got that Friday going on, Um,
Speaker 1: that's what it is, and and appealed, and the appeals
Speaker 1: court said, you know, we kind of agree that, uh,
Speaker 1: in fact, this this dispute should be being dealt with
Speaker 1: in Ireland because that's where Facebook has its primary headquarters.
Speaker 1: In the EU, so they basically won the appeal on this.
Speaker 1: I went back to the Commission and they started kind
Speaker 1: of thinking about how they could rejigger things so that
Speaker 1: it was more palatable focused on people in Belgium. So done.
Speaker 1: What exactly is Facebook doing that the Belgians find so objectionable? Well,
Speaker 1: it would be really great if we knew exactly what
Speaker 1: Facebook was doing, but you know, not as exactly. It's
Speaker 1: all the stuff behind the scenes that they do that
Speaker 1: drives their engine of you know, behavioral targeted advertising. Um,
Speaker 1: the ways that they gathered data to make those ads
Speaker 1: when you're on your Facebook page actually be meaningful to you.
Speaker 1: So they are collecting data from people who click like Mutton's,
Speaker 1: they are collecting data through their advertising data analytics thing
Speaker 1: called pixels or pixels that is a basically a way
Speaker 1: that the advertisers can put information on their websites that
Speaker 1: allows them to know how often things are being engaged
Speaker 1: and and Facebook is drawing data from that, or at
Speaker 1: least allegedly is. And then social plug ins on you know,
Speaker 1: on a person's website that says, you know here, click
Speaker 1: here and it will take you over to Facebook. All
Speaker 1: of those are ways that they can gather information, um
Speaker 1: and a lot of that is happening, you know, basically
Speaker 1: without people knowing that that's what's you know, what's what's
Speaker 1: going on now. Facebook says that it disagrees with the
Speaker 1: Belgium watch dogs claims and that putting people in control
Speaker 1: of their privacy is at the heart of everything we do.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the consent that you sign up for
Speaker 1: when you're using Facebook and what that allows Facebook to do. Well.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, Facebook has come a long way
Speaker 1: and being at least a little more trans parent about
Speaker 1: what they do and giving some you know, giving users
Speaker 1: some control over their privacy. But I think there's so
Speaker 1: much going on there that when they use terminology to
Speaker 1: describe some of their mechanisms, it's not entirely clear to
Speaker 1: a lot of users that they are actually giving consent
Speaker 1: for this data to be pulled up. And I think
Speaker 1: that goes to the heart of what the both the
Speaker 1: Belgian Privacy Commission is arguing about and saying that that's
Speaker 1: that's unacceptable, and also what you know what Facebook frankly
Speaker 1: is saying, well, this is the backbone of what we
Speaker 1: do and we're not we're not misusing this information. We're
Speaker 1: just trying to be able to continue to give you
Speaker 1: this free service. So how big a deal? And it's
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously this seems like it's a big deal
Speaker 1: for Facebook. How big a deal is it for them
Speaker 1: to be able to collect the information in the way
Speaker 1: that they do. I think it probably this or some
Speaker 1: other version of this is almost necessary. Um, it's it's
Speaker 1: the it's the it's the money stream for Facebook is
Speaker 1: to be able to offer app advertising and haven't be targeted.
Speaker 1: So I'm I I think it's it would be it
Speaker 1: would be potentially devastating if they couldn't you do this
Speaker 1: at all? But I think that's an unlikely result here,
Speaker 1: don't What about the people who haven't signed the consent?
Speaker 1: The authorities in Belgium are saying that these similar techniques
Speaker 1: are being used to track non users of Facebook for
Speaker 1: commercial purposes, right, And that's the thing that I think
Speaker 1: they and they said it yes, or said it in
Speaker 1: their hearing presentation and support of their complaint, that that's
Speaker 1: that is exactly what bothers them the most. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that that is a really a big significant problem,
Speaker 1: especially in the EU, especially with the new EU Privacy
Speaker 1: regime taking effect next year, which is even more focused on,
Speaker 1: you know, needing specific consent from whomever you're collecting data from.
Speaker 1: Down There's also an issue, isn't there about um Facebook?
Speaker 1: You know, if you are using Facebook but then you
Speaker 1: stop using it, their system allows them to keep tracking
Speaker 1: what you're doing even though you're not on the site anymore. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's that's definitely. That's kind of another. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's all sorts of little gradiations and differences here, and
Speaker 1: there's been different pieces of UH data protection authorities all
Speaker 1: over the U focusing on little components, that being one
Speaker 1: big one that you know, somehow I'm logged off, but
Speaker 1: the system is still working to collect at it and
Speaker 1: they've been so I can't remember which one it was,
Speaker 1: which one of the data protection authorities was was fairly
Speaker 1: successful in getting them the back off. I might have
Speaker 1: been the Dutch, I can't remember, but they, you know,
Speaker 1: to get them to back off a little bit. I mean,
Speaker 1: Facebook's got a lot of control over how they do things,
Speaker 1: so they can make some adjustments here and there um
Speaker 1: and still not lose their ability to do behavioral advertising.
Speaker 1: Will Belgium be able to pursue this even though Facebook
Speaker 1: one the appeal saying that it should have been done
Speaker 1: in Ireland. Well, I think there's a lot that the
Speaker 1: Belgian uh Privacy Commission has done to try to make
Speaker 1: this focus now on Belgium. You keep hearing like you
Speaker 1: started off, you're talking about it. It's it's a certain
Speaker 1: eleven point for million people in Belgium who use Facebook
Speaker 1: or you know, and it's less about kind of the
Speaker 1: in the practices that applies across the board. So I
Speaker 1: think they're trying to you know, they're trying to make
Speaker 1: the point that regardless of UM, Facebook Ireland, you know,
Speaker 1: Facebook being in Ireland, that you know, they're they they
Speaker 1: are obligated to protect their citizens who are affected by
Speaker 1: this in Belgium if in fact, on they're able to
Speaker 1: the Belgian regulators are able to really keep a court
Speaker 1: case going against Facebook here despite that appeal ruling. UM,
Speaker 1: and they do convince the court that you know, there
Speaker 1: are the there's a real connection to Belgium. What kind
Speaker 1: of relief can we expect them to want a court
Speaker 1: to impose. Well, I'm sure they'll shoot for the mean,
Speaker 1: I mean, they are shooting for the moon. They're gonna
Speaker 1: want them to completely change everything they're doing. Um, but
Speaker 1: I think you know, there's always an opportunity for this
Speaker 1: to be resolved. I mean, Facebook says, you know, we'd
Speaker 1: be glad to sit down and talk to Belgium, and
Speaker 1: of course they throw in there and the Irish Data
Speaker 1: Protection Authority at the same time, um and and and
Speaker 1: come to some sort of discussion about changing this. At
Speaker 1: the same time, Belgian says, look, we're done talking. That's
Speaker 1: why we're in court now. So we're gonna ask for
Speaker 1: basically everything. We want you to shut down all these
Speaker 1: things that you're doing, you know, not track people when
Speaker 1: they're when they're just when they're not users of Facebook.
Speaker 1: We want you to you know. And and then then
Speaker 1: there's the penalty there that June mentioned at the start.
Speaker 1: There's a two hundred ninety six thousand dollar a day
Speaker 1: find that they could uh seek, you know, and that's
Speaker 1: but I think that's unlikely the court would grant something
Speaker 1: that extreme. Don in about thirty seconds. Is there a
Speaker 1: reason why there's so much scrutiny by European regulators, the
Speaker 1: Dutch and the French and not the US. Well, I
Speaker 1: think probably there is some scrutiny going on in the US,
Speaker 1: but we played a little closer to the vest um.
Speaker 1: I think there are the FTC is probably very interested
Speaker 1: in what's happening in the U and paying attention to this,
Speaker 1: but I also think there's a little bit more of
Speaker 1: a business understanding here that you know. That's how you
Speaker 1: get free internet is you have some of these mechanisms
Speaker 1: in place. We've got to end it there, but thank you.
Speaker 1: Don Applin's the Bloomberg Law Managing editor for Privacy and Data.
Speaker 1: That's it for this edition of Bloomberg Law. Thanks to
Speaker 1: our producer Marx and Hiss Couchi and our technical director
Speaker 1: Chris strike Homey will be back on Monday. Have a
Speaker 1: great weekend. Coming up next Bloomberg Markets with Corey Johnson.
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