WEBVTT - Belgian Requlator Seeks Court Order Against Facebook (Audio)

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<v Speaker 1>Belgium's data privacy watchdog is accusing Facebook of unprecedented monitoring

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<v Speaker 1>of the browsing habits of millions of people in Belgium,

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<v Speaker 1>regardless of whether they're signed up for the service or not.

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<v Speaker 1>The Privacy Commission is seeking a court order forcing Facebook

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<v Speaker 1>to stop any collection of data for advertising purposes and

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<v Speaker 1>providing misleading information to users, under the threat of a

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<v Speaker 1>two nine thousand dollar daily penalty. The company said it

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<v Speaker 1>disagreed with the allegation allegations. Joining us is Don Applin

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Law, Managing Editor for Privacy and Data. Don Facebook

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<v Speaker 1>has been a target for Belgium's Data Protection Commission since

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<v Speaker 1>at least and it's gone to court. Tell us what

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<v Speaker 1>happened when a court ordered it to stop storing non

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<v Speaker 1>users personal data. Well, Facebook kind of objected to the

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<v Speaker 1>fact that a Belgian court was even looking at it,

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<v Speaker 1>and appealed, excuse me, it's got that Friday going on, Um,

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<v Speaker 1>that's what it is, and and appealed, and the appeals

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<v Speaker 1>court said, you know, we kind of agree that, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>in fact, this this dispute should be being dealt with

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<v Speaker 1>in Ireland because that's where Facebook has its primary headquarters.

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<v Speaker 1>In the EU, so they basically won the appeal on this.

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<v Speaker 1>I went back to the Commission and they started kind

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<v Speaker 1>of thinking about how they could rejigger things so that

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<v Speaker 1>it was more palatable focused on people in Belgium. So done.

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<v Speaker 1>What exactly is Facebook doing that the Belgians find so objectionable? Well,

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<v Speaker 1>it would be really great if we knew exactly what

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<v Speaker 1>Facebook was doing, but you know, not as exactly. It's

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<v Speaker 1>all the stuff behind the scenes that they do that

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<v Speaker 1>drives their engine of you know, behavioral targeted advertising. Um,

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<v Speaker 1>the ways that they gathered data to make those ads

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<v Speaker 1>when you're on your Facebook page actually be meaningful to you.

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<v Speaker 1>So they are collecting data from people who click like Mutton's,

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<v Speaker 1>they are collecting data through their advertising data analytics thing

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<v Speaker 1>called pixels or pixels that is a basically a way

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<v Speaker 1>that the advertisers can put information on their websites that

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<v Speaker 1>allows them to know how often things are being engaged

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<v Speaker 1>and and Facebook is drawing data from that, or at

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<v Speaker 1>least allegedly is. And then social plug ins on you know,

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<v Speaker 1>on a person's website that says, you know here, click

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<v Speaker 1>here and it will take you over to Facebook. All

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<v Speaker 1>of those are ways that they can gather information, um

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<v Speaker 1>and a lot of that is happening, you know, basically

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<v Speaker 1>without people knowing that that's what's you know, what's what's

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<v Speaker 1>going on now. Facebook says that it disagrees with the

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<v Speaker 1>Belgium watch dogs claims and that putting people in control

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<v Speaker 1>of their privacy is at the heart of everything we do.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's talk about the consent that you sign up for

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<v Speaker 1>when you're using Facebook and what that allows Facebook to do. Well.

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<v Speaker 1>I think, you know, Facebook has come a long way

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<v Speaker 1>and being at least a little more trans parent about

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<v Speaker 1>what they do and giving some you know, giving users

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<v Speaker 1>some control over their privacy. But I think there's so

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<v Speaker 1>much going on there that when they use terminology to

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<v Speaker 1>describe some of their mechanisms, it's not entirely clear to

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of users that they are actually giving consent

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<v Speaker 1>for this data to be pulled up. And I think

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<v Speaker 1>that goes to the heart of what the both the

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<v Speaker 1>Belgian Privacy Commission is arguing about and saying that that's

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<v Speaker 1>that's unacceptable, and also what you know what Facebook frankly

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<v Speaker 1>is saying, well, this is the backbone of what we

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<v Speaker 1>do and we're not we're not misusing this information. We're

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<v Speaker 1>just trying to be able to continue to give you

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<v Speaker 1>this free service. So how big a deal? And it's

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, obviously this seems like it's a big deal

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<v Speaker 1>for Facebook. How big a deal is it for them

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<v Speaker 1>to be able to collect the information in the way

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<v Speaker 1>that they do. I think it probably this or some

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<v Speaker 1>other version of this is almost necessary. Um, it's it's

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<v Speaker 1>the it's the it's the money stream for Facebook is

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<v Speaker 1>to be able to offer app advertising and haven't be targeted.

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<v Speaker 1>So I'm I I think it's it would be it

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<v Speaker 1>would be potentially devastating if they couldn't you do this

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<v Speaker 1>at all? But I think that's an unlikely result here,

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<v Speaker 1>don't What about the people who haven't signed the consent?

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<v Speaker 1>The authorities in Belgium are saying that these similar techniques

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<v Speaker 1>are being used to track non users of Facebook for

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<v Speaker 1>commercial purposes, right, And that's the thing that I think

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<v Speaker 1>they and they said it yes, or said it in

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<v Speaker 1>their hearing presentation and support of their complaint, that that's

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<v Speaker 1>that is exactly what bothers them the most. Um. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I think that that is a really a big significant problem,

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<v Speaker 1>especially in the EU, especially with the new EU Privacy

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<v Speaker 1>regime taking effect next year, which is even more focused on,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, needing specific consent from whomever you're collecting data from.

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<v Speaker 1>Down There's also an issue, isn't there about um Facebook?

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<v Speaker 1>You know, if you are using Facebook but then you

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<v Speaker 1>stop using it, their system allows them to keep tracking

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<v Speaker 1>what you're doing even though you're not on the site anymore. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's that's definitely. That's kind of another. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>there's all sorts of little gradiations and differences here, and

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<v Speaker 1>there's been different pieces of UH data protection authorities all

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<v Speaker 1>over the U focusing on little components, that being one

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<v Speaker 1>big one that you know, somehow I'm logged off, but

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<v Speaker 1>the system is still working to collect at it and

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<v Speaker 1>they've been so I can't remember which one it was,

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<v Speaker 1>which one of the data protection authorities was was fairly

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<v Speaker 1>successful in getting them the back off. I might have

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<v Speaker 1>been the Dutch, I can't remember, but they, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>to get them to back off a little bit. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>Facebook's got a lot of control over how they do things,

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<v Speaker 1>so they can make some adjustments here and there um

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<v Speaker 1>and still not lose their ability to do behavioral advertising.

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<v Speaker 1>Will Belgium be able to pursue this even though Facebook

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<v Speaker 1>one the appeal saying that it should have been done

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<v Speaker 1>in Ireland. Well, I think there's a lot that the

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<v Speaker 1>Belgian uh Privacy Commission has done to try to make

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<v Speaker 1>this focus now on Belgium. You keep hearing like you

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<v Speaker 1>started off, you're talking about it. It's it's a certain

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<v Speaker 1>eleven point for million people in Belgium who use Facebook

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<v Speaker 1>or you know, and it's less about kind of the

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<v Speaker 1>in the practices that applies across the board. So I

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<v Speaker 1>think they're trying to you know, they're trying to make

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<v Speaker 1>the point that regardless of UM, Facebook Ireland, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>Facebook being in Ireland, that you know, they're they they

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<v Speaker 1>are obligated to protect their citizens who are affected by

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<v Speaker 1>this in Belgium if in fact, on they're able to

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<v Speaker 1>the Belgian regulators are able to really keep a court

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<v Speaker 1>case going against Facebook here despite that appeal ruling. UM,

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<v Speaker 1>and they do convince the court that you know, there

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<v Speaker 1>are the there's a real connection to Belgium. What kind

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<v Speaker 1>of relief can we expect them to want a court

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<v Speaker 1>to impose. Well, I'm sure they'll shoot for the mean,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, they are shooting for the moon. They're gonna

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<v Speaker 1>want them to completely change everything they're doing. Um, but

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<v Speaker 1>I think you know, there's always an opportunity for this

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<v Speaker 1>to be resolved. I mean, Facebook says, you know, we'd

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<v Speaker 1>be glad to sit down and talk to Belgium, and

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<v Speaker 1>of course they throw in there and the Irish Data

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<v Speaker 1>Protection Authority at the same time, um and and and

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<v Speaker 1>come to some sort of discussion about changing this. At

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<v Speaker 1>the same time, Belgian says, look, we're done talking. That's

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<v Speaker 1>why we're in court now. So we're gonna ask for

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<v Speaker 1>basically everything. We want you to shut down all these

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<v Speaker 1>things that you're doing, you know, not track people when

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<v Speaker 1>they're when they're just when they're not users of Facebook.

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<v Speaker 1>We want you to you know. And and then then

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<v Speaker 1>there's the penalty there that June mentioned at the start.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a two hundred ninety six thousand dollar a day

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<v Speaker 1>find that they could uh seek, you know, and that's

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<v Speaker 1>but I think that's unlikely the court would grant something

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<v Speaker 1>that extreme. Don in about thirty seconds. Is there a

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<v Speaker 1>reason why there's so much scrutiny by European regulators, the

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<v Speaker 1>Dutch and the French and not the US. Well, I

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<v Speaker 1>think probably there is some scrutiny going on in the US,

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<v Speaker 1>but we played a little closer to the vest um.

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<v Speaker 1>I think there are the FTC is probably very interested

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<v Speaker 1>in what's happening in the U and paying attention to this,

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<v Speaker 1>but I also think there's a little bit more of

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<v Speaker 1>a business understanding here that you know. That's how you

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<v Speaker 1>get free internet is you have some of these mechanisms

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<v Speaker 1>in place. We've got to end it there, but thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>Don Applin's the Bloomberg Law Managing editor for Privacy and Data.

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<v Speaker 1>That's it for this edition of Bloomberg Law. Thanks to

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<v Speaker 1>our producer Marx and Hiss Couchi and our technical director

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<v Speaker 1>Chris strike Homey will be back on Monday. Have a

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<v Speaker 1>great weekend. Coming up next Bloomberg Markets with Corey Johnson.

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg