Speaker 1: One cool thing about doing a show about books by
Speaker 1: contemporary writers is that they are contemporaries. Like if you
Speaker 1: have a question about Frankenstein, you can't go ask Mary Shelley.
Speaker 1: She's dead. But after our conversation about The Hate You
Speaker 1: Gift by Angie Thomas, we all had questions, and so
Speaker 1: we got the chance to ask her. I've been really
Speaker 1: excited to bring you this episode because, as you're about
Speaker 1: to hear, Andie Thomas is brilliant and cool and nice
Speaker 1: and everything you hope for in a young adult author.
Speaker 1: This week, she'll talk to us about what it's like
Speaker 1: to see your work adapted to the screen. With books
Speaker 1: and movies, I look at it as a parent trap situations.
Speaker 1: So like you got the book Twin and the movie Twin,
Speaker 1: and they're gonna be raised by two different parents. Book
Speaker 1: Twin is going with my publisher, movie Twins going with
Speaker 1: the film folks. Who am I? I'm like the grandparents that.
Speaker 1: Andie Thomas was born, raised and still lives in Jackson, Mississippi.
Speaker 1: She was a former teen rapper, and we we'll get
Speaker 1: into that. They You Give is her debut novel, and
Speaker 1: it is a number one New York Times bestseller. Of course,
Speaker 1: she's still a working writer, and her second novel, On
Speaker 1: The Come Up, is on shelves. Now, Hi, everyone, this
Speaker 1: is Dani Schwartz. You're listening to Popcorn Book Club. I
Speaker 1: am joined as always by Karamadan Qua, Melissa Hunter, Tan Tran,
Speaker 1: The Wonderful Jennifer Wright is out this week, and we
Speaker 1: are joined by an incredibly special guest. I am so
Speaker 1: excited the author of The Hate You Give, Angie Thomas,
Speaker 1: the book that spent I believe a hundred and seventy
Speaker 1: four weeks at the top of the New York Times
Speaker 1: bestseller list, but that number might be out of date.
Speaker 1: It could be even more truly a young adult phenomenon.
Speaker 1: We are so excited to have you. Thank you, Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us. Thank you, thank you
Speaker 1: for having me. Of course, so I am going to
Speaker 1: be sort of moderating today, and we have some questions
Speaker 1: for you. Don't worry. It's not like when trying to
Speaker 1: get you or anything friendly here. But I just wanted
Speaker 1: to start off. I was reading The Hate You Give
Speaker 1: while simultaneously reading a book called They Can't Kill Us
Speaker 1: Until They Kill Us by Honey abdul Riki and I'm
Speaker 1: I was struck by a quote when I was reading
Speaker 1: about Chance the Rapper that made me want to ask
Speaker 1: you about it. So it says what Chance does is
Speaker 1: what the best artists of color managed to do in
Speaker 1: this setting, makes music facing his people while also leaving
Speaker 1: the door open for everyone else to try and work
Speaker 1: their way in. And I was curious if you felt
Speaker 1: like this spoke to your experience writing about black culture
Speaker 1: and the neighborhood that you grew up in and having
Speaker 1: this book that's spent so many weeks on the New
Speaker 1: York Times bestseller list that is being read widely by
Speaker 1: non black people, do you feel like you do make
Speaker 1: art that faces your people while leaving the door open
Speaker 1: for other people to work their way in. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: what I hoped to do. Um. I remember very very
Speaker 1: very early in the process, like after I just signed
Speaker 1: with my publisher, me and my editor we were having
Speaker 1: a conversation and she reminded me she told me something
Speaker 1: from the beginning that like has stayed with me. And
Speaker 1: she was like, your job as a writer is not
Speaker 1: to explain things to white people. And this is a
Speaker 1: white woman, you know, this is a white woman. And
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh my god. I didn't realize how
Speaker 1: liberating just that was. But she was like, no, that's
Speaker 1: not your job to do it. She was like, if
Speaker 1: there's something they don't understand, they can take the time
Speaker 1: to find out what it is. It's okay, you know.
Speaker 1: And and that has been kind of my mantra going
Speaker 1: forward as a writer. Um I went to craft and
Speaker 1: in literature, um Dr rudin Sam's Bishops Wants said that
Speaker 1: books are mirrors, windows or slide glass doors. And I
Speaker 1: want my books to first and foremost be mirrors for
Speaker 1: those black kids who picked them up. I want them
Speaker 1: to see um great views of themselves that aren't distorted,
Speaker 1: and that show them who they are and help empower them.
Speaker 1: And if everybody else sees it as a window or
Speaker 1: sliding glass door, great, But my priority always as a
Speaker 1: writer is to craft the mirror. And so like, as
Speaker 1: I've become more I guess comfortable in my craft, I've
Speaker 1: stopped code switching as much in my writing. Like, I
Speaker 1: look at the hate you give, and I saw glimpses
Speaker 1: of it there where. I was like, I kind of
Speaker 1: want to do a little more, but I'm scared that
Speaker 1: I'm going too far. But like now I'm on book
Speaker 1: three Concrete Rolls, the prequel to The Hate You Give,
Speaker 1: and it's like I stopped code switching all together, and
Speaker 1: that it is so liberating. Like you know, Maverick uses
Speaker 1: Finna in that book, and I've never had the guts
Speaker 1: to put Finna in The Hate You Give. But I'm like,
Speaker 1: I put finner in there, and they sinna find out
Speaker 1: what Finna me so dictionary it right now. I seriously
Speaker 1: don't know what PA means. That's not a judgment. I've
Speaker 1: just been surprised. I forget. I forget what white people know,
Speaker 1: like not to put you on blast, Danta. But I
Speaker 1: remember that we were talking one time and we were
Speaker 1: talking about our friend Mike, and I said, wow, I
Speaker 1: had dinner with Mike, and he didn't realize that black
Speaker 1: people put lotion on their whole bodies every day. You said,
Speaker 1: black people put lotion on their whole bodies every day,
Speaker 1: so much, every single day after over, our whole bodies
Speaker 1: alicious because our skins would be dry and actual other words,
Speaker 1: have learned about white people's dry skin, y'all. Not every
Speaker 1: day I have to I see so many crusty feet
Speaker 1: in the summertime that I'm like, what are y'all doing? Truly?
Speaker 1: Those songs sandals and crusty. It's like put some lotion
Speaker 1: in some socks on. Please. I Actually I do have
Speaker 1: a question, Angie about the slang. Did you have pushed
Speaker 1: back ever from it? Sounds like your agent is super supportive,
Speaker 1: but did you ever have you know, pushback from editors
Speaker 1: or even copy editors, like on that level of people
Speaker 1: trying to to fix grammar stuff. No, I didn't, which
Speaker 1: surprised me again because, like you know, after having that
Speaker 1: conversation with my my editor, I was like, Okay, we'll
Speaker 1: see how far this mindset goes in the process. But
Speaker 1: by like with my copy editor, um, every time she
Speaker 1: didn't understand a word or something like that, she would
Speaker 1: go to you know, urban dictionary and she'd make note
Speaker 1: of it. It was hilarious, what you know, to like
Speaker 1: part of me. When I was writing to Hate You Give,
Speaker 1: I was like, do I want to put any slang
Speaker 1: words in? Because people are always like that dates the
Speaker 1: book that dates the book. But you look at the classics,
Speaker 1: let's look at classic novel. Nobody ever says that the
Speaker 1: stuff that's mentioned in those books dates those books, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. So you're still yeah, exactly exactly.
Speaker 1: So I'm like, why not speak to young people right
Speaker 1: now where they are, right now and this time we're
Speaker 1: in right now. Paint a picture of right now, so
Speaker 1: that yeah, it may be dated in a few years,
Speaker 1: but hopefully the message is still powerful regardless of the
Speaker 1: words that may be used from time to time. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I was. I was really lucky because I've heard some
Speaker 1: horror stories of pushback when it comes to um slang
Speaker 1: or African American vernacular all of those things. Like I've
Speaker 1: been given the green light to just do whatever at
Speaker 1: this point. That's amazing. Uh. So you mentioned like the
Speaker 1: book may be dated in a few years, like we'll
Speaker 1: say it was written a few years ago or at
Speaker 1: least released a few years ago, and it still feels
Speaker 1: fresh and it's still killing it in sales, And um,
Speaker 1: I don't feel like it's stated at least not Ye,
Speaker 1: you did start writing it when you were a college
Speaker 1: student in the I won't say the year. It's on Wikipedia,
Speaker 1: people can look it up and I'm not trying to
Speaker 1: aid you, but prior to its release in and it
Speaker 1: was a short story initially, so I wanted to know
Speaker 1: what was the process like adopting it from that short
Speaker 1: story into a full length young adult novel, and what
Speaker 1: sort of stayed and how how did you expand it
Speaker 1: or did you build around it. It was easier than
Speaker 1: I thought it would be. Um it took me. It was.
Speaker 1: There were years between when I first wrote it as
Speaker 1: a short story and when I decided to write it
Speaker 1: as a novel. But the thing is, when I was
Speaker 1: writing it as a short story, it was part of
Speaker 1: my senior project UM in college, in my creative writing program.
Speaker 1: And my problem was I kept making the short story
Speaker 1: too long. So like my professor, he's an author, and
Speaker 1: like he pulled me aside one day, and you got
Speaker 1: to imagine this older white Southern man pulling me aside,
Speaker 1: and he's like, Darling is supposed to be short. That's
Speaker 1: why it's called a short story. Because I was adding
Speaker 1: all of these characters, all of these plot lines, all
Speaker 1: this stuff, and he was like, he's supposed to be short,
Speaker 1: and I was like, yeah, but I want to do
Speaker 1: I want to He was like, I get that you
Speaker 1: can turn it into a novel one day, but right now,
Speaker 1: I just need so when the time came, you know,
Speaker 1: when I was like, Okay, maybe I should go back
Speaker 1: to that um and do that and turn it into
Speaker 1: a novel. It was kind of easy because I had
Speaker 1: all those things and those storyline ideas that I wanted
Speaker 1: to include, and all those characters that I wanted to
Speaker 1: include that I couldn't before, and so now I was
Speaker 1: given that opportunity to do that. So the main thing
Speaker 1: was um making sure that the core message of the
Speaker 1: book remained the same, and for me, that is that
Speaker 1: young black p both have voices and that they matter.
Speaker 1: And that's what it was for me when it was
Speaker 1: a short story, and that's what I wanted to keep
Speaker 1: in the novel form. So it wasn't too hard because
Speaker 1: I i again, I was limiting myself when I was
Speaker 1: writing it as a short story. UM. So in that sense,
Speaker 1: I was lucky that I had a whole lot of
Speaker 1: ideas to work with. Can I ask what the focus
Speaker 1: of the short story was? Yeah, yeah, the short story.
Speaker 1: It was actually I did like four different short stories
Speaker 1: to make up the senior project, So it was like
Speaker 1: one was from Khalil's perspective, one was from Khalil's little
Speaker 1: brother's perspective, one was from stars perspective, and one was
Speaker 1: from a perspective of another little girl in the neighborhood
Speaker 1: who was friends with Khalil's little brother. And so I
Speaker 1: wanted to show how this world and how this this
Speaker 1: this act of violence affected all of them in some
Speaker 1: kind of way, you know. For for Khalil's little brother,
Speaker 1: what this the neighborhood looked like through his eyes, you know.
Speaker 1: And I had to go back to when I was
Speaker 1: a little kid, and what and and the fact that
Speaker 1: I didn't realize my neighborhood was as dangerous as it was.
Speaker 1: So like my imagination saved me in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1: Like I you know, for me, I pictured the drug
Speaker 1: add excess dragons in the neighborhood, and I pictured you know,
Speaker 1: I said that the drug house that we were supposed to,
Speaker 1: you know, avoid that was like the dragon layer. And
Speaker 1: I had this whole thing in my head. So I
Speaker 1: pulled that into the story. Um and like the but
Speaker 1: the main thing was showing at that point even was
Speaker 1: the idea that these kids who were in this community
Speaker 1: that so often ridden off, um, they have value, they
Speaker 1: have beauty, they have stories that deserve to be told,
Speaker 1: you know, I kind of even at that point, I
Speaker 1: pulled on that concept of roses growing in concrete. That's
Speaker 1: what I wanted that neighborhood to represent. I wanted Garden
Speaker 1: Heights to be the concrete and we're talking about the roses,
Speaker 1: and I want at the show the beauty of the roses.
Speaker 1: So that was the theme that was in the senior
Speaker 1: project and in those short stories that has now found
Speaker 1: its way into my books. So here I am, all
Speaker 1: these years later, still doing a college school project. If
Speaker 1: you have a good idea, take it and run with it.
Speaker 1: And I would say that a lot of people think
Speaker 1: it's a good idea. Have you spoken to the professor
Speaker 1: who said that it needs to be a short story
Speaker 1: since then? Oh? Yeah, I have. I have. I've spoken
Speaker 1: to him. He's come to all of my signings in
Speaker 1: Jackson and he's like, so where am I getting the check?
Speaker 1: And I'm like, he's joking. He's always joking when he
Speaker 1: says but I'm like, yeah, that's some funny. So from
Speaker 1: turning it from a short story into a novel with
Speaker 1: stars perspective immediately the first one that you went to
Speaker 1: in terms of wanting to grow out this story, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that was like for me, she was always the main
Speaker 1: character in my mind. Um. And and I think part
Speaker 1: of it was because maybe because I put some of
Speaker 1: my own experience in that character, my own viewpoint, Um,
Speaker 1: in that character, you know, she's navigating these two worlds.
Speaker 1: And there I literally was at that time in college,
Speaker 1: navigating two worlds. I went to a mostly white, upper class,
Speaker 1: private Christian school in conservative Mississippi. Exactly, I just did
Speaker 1: that that combination of words is that's fine. That was
Speaker 1: my that was my college. And and I was the
Speaker 1: only black student in my creative writing program. I was
Speaker 1: the first black student to graduate from the creative writing program.
Speaker 1: And oh, you know, being the only black person, I
Speaker 1: had all those experiences, like when you're talking about slavery
Speaker 1: in class, people looking at me, look at I had
Speaker 1: that experience in high school when we were reading Huck
Speaker 1: Finn because my white teacher would say the N word
Speaker 1: when she was reading it, and every time she said it,
Speaker 1: every student in class turned and looked at either me
Speaker 1: or the other black girl in class. And we always
Speaker 1: sat on opposite end, so it's funny. You could see
Speaker 1: their heads whipping back and forth, and are they looking
Speaker 1: at you? Like I'm so sorry or are they looking
Speaker 1: at you like, what are you think? What's she gonna do?
Speaker 1: What's she gonna do? It's yeah, it's it's a universal
Speaker 1: experience for black people in primarily white institutions, having that
Speaker 1: moment where when blackness comes up in a discussion in
Speaker 1: a white space, what is this one black person's reaction
Speaker 1: going to be? So I feel that Ms Thomas I yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: that was like that was me and she when it
Speaker 1: came to them turning the book into the movie, which
Speaker 1: was then such a so much attention I feel like
Speaker 1: was on you and the process, Well, I mean, what
Speaker 1: was that like? I feel like also I saw people
Speaker 1: on Twitter thinking that you were personally casting it. That
Speaker 1: was that was wild. I don't think like there's so
Speaker 1: many misconceptions about the film process with books, and it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, everybody thinks they know, thinks they're an expert
Speaker 1: and they and they really have no idea just how
Speaker 1: everything happened or anything. Like for me, the movie process
Speaker 1: started really early, like the Hey you give I signed
Speaker 1: with my agent and I tweeted him in June two
Speaker 1: thou fifteen, he signed me as a client. Like in
Speaker 1: August we went on some mission November, and the book
Speaker 1: was sold in November, and by December of two thousand fifteen,
Speaker 1: I was on phone calls with Hollywood producers and studios
Speaker 1: because there was all this buzz about the book from
Speaker 1: publishing because it was this big thirteen House auction and
Speaker 1: everybody was talking about that, and so it got into
Speaker 1: Hollywood and like, yeah, December, I say, December two thousand
Speaker 1: and fifteen, I had my first phone conversation with George
Speaker 1: Tillman Jr. Who ended up being a director. Um, and like,
Speaker 1: that's early, you know, that's that's I mean, I just
Speaker 1: I hadn't even signed the contract yet for the book.
Speaker 1: That's how early we're talking. When I talked to George
Speaker 1: January two thousand sixteen, Amandela Stenberg was given a copy. Again,
Speaker 1: I hadn't even signed a contract for the book yet.
Speaker 1: I was still waiting on the paperwork. They were still
Speaker 1: getting all the negotiations done, you know. Um with that,
Speaker 1: and like Mandela read it and was like, I love
Speaker 1: this star is me in so many ways. I'd love
Speaker 1: to be attached to play this character. And so we
Speaker 1: were talking about bam bam bam. Like within a few months,
Speaker 1: I go from working on something by myself too, I
Speaker 1: got a publisher, and now I got a film studio,
Speaker 1: a director and an actress. Attack the wildest thing in
Speaker 1: my life. You're listening to Popcorn Book Club for My
Speaker 1: Heart Radio and we'll be back right after the break.
Speaker 1: So we're back with Popcorn Book Club for my Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: What was it like handing over the book to a screenwriter?
Speaker 1: I know, like, you know, you've created such a rich
Speaker 1: world in your book and tapestry of characters, and obviously
Speaker 1: it's a script is so different. So what was your relationship?
Speaker 1: I know she just since past, but with the screenwriter
Speaker 1: and that process of handing over this baby, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: that was that was a scary process, I have to admit,
Speaker 1: because you know, with with books and movies, I look
Speaker 1: at it as a parent trap situation. And you got like,
Speaker 1: you know, these two kids, so like you got the
Speaker 1: book Twin and the movie Twin, and they're gonna be
Speaker 1: raised by two different parents. Book Twin is going with
Speaker 1: a publisher, Movie Twins going with the film. Folks, who
Speaker 1: am I I'm like the grandparents that you know, you're
Speaker 1: the British grandfather exactly. I'm the British grandfather, So I
Speaker 1: you know, I had to trust them in that process
Speaker 1: and understand the kids are gonna look different, their fraternal
Speaker 1: twins not identical. They're gonna look different, but the genetic
Speaker 1: start the same. The one thing I will say about
Speaker 1: Audrey was, Um, she from the very beginning, she involved
Speaker 1: me in the process, Like my first trip on an airplane.
Speaker 1: I'd never flown in my life. My first trip on
Speaker 1: an airplane was in two thousand and sixteen when I
Speaker 1: flew out to Los Angeles to meet her and George
Speaker 1: and all the people at Fox. Two thousand and I
Speaker 1: sat down with Audrey and George for like an entire
Speaker 1: day at a restaurant talking about every single character, every
Speaker 1: single plot line in the book. Um. You know, now,
Speaker 1: I will say, and you know, people probably gonna look
Speaker 1: at me weird or come at me for saying this,
Speaker 1: and this is no disrespect to the dead, But I
Speaker 1: will say, looking back on it, part of me still
Speaker 1: wishes that a black woman had been involved as a
Speaker 1: screenwriter from the beginning. We did have a black woman
Speaker 1: come on later. Um Tina Maybury. She came on later,
Speaker 1: and she reworked some stuff in the script. Um. Because
Speaker 1: the thing about Audrey was God rest her soul, like
Speaker 1: she had never watched the Fresh Fresh Prints, and so
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, so we got we got now. I
Speaker 1: will say she was willing to learn blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: But the way you know things with Hollywood and all
Speaker 1: that work out at that time, I'm still learning as
Speaker 1: I go. All right, I will say that I'm still
Speaker 1: learning as I go. I'm still learning the process how
Speaker 1: things work. So I wish I could have been a
Speaker 1: little more vocal at that time and said let's get
Speaker 1: a black woman in from the get go. You know
Speaker 1: what I mean? Um, I do wish that. Now. That's
Speaker 1: the thing about that is I learned from that because
Speaker 1: here I am now a second book on the come up.
Speaker 1: We have black woman screenwriter, k oh, you're gunning from
Speaker 1: this is us. Um. We have a black woman studio
Speaker 1: head Am Barrassberry at Paramount who's overseeing the project. You
Speaker 1: have me as a producer this time, not just in name,
Speaker 1: but I actually actually working on it this time. And
Speaker 1: I will say I can't say who yet, um, but
Speaker 1: we will have a black and director as well, So
Speaker 1: you like nod for us. I can't do that and
Speaker 1: just put it, just just blink it in more so
Speaker 1: in your eyes. We love we love intel. I may
Speaker 1: let y'all know after the we won't tell anybody. It
Speaker 1: can't be recorded because I don't want any that I
Speaker 1: did it. But no, of course he doesn't. You know what,
Speaker 1: we don't even tell us. We will not we will
Speaker 1: not ask at all. Yeah, yeah, no, no, so no,
Speaker 1: you know, I will say like I was a baby
Speaker 1: in the early in that first film process, I was
Speaker 1: still learning. I was storry ey, surprised that anybody wants
Speaker 1: to make something out of my book. And now I'm like, okay,
Speaker 1: I know a little more. I got a little more safe. Oh,
Speaker 1: I got a little more power, and I was I
Speaker 1: told Amber Raspberry at Paramount, I was like, look, I
Speaker 1: know that I have to pick my battles, but this
Speaker 1: is one hell I want to die. I'm willing to
Speaker 1: die on and as I want a black woman director.
Speaker 1: And that was like, originally George was going to direct it,
Speaker 1: and George is my big brother. I love him, but
Speaker 1: something came up scheduling conflicts, so now he can't do it.
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, so since George can't do it,
Speaker 1: here's the Hill, I'm willing to die and I want
Speaker 1: a black woman director, So I got I feel like
Speaker 1: that's a good hell. We were going to ask specifically
Speaker 1: how it felt to have a white screenwriter, and I'm
Speaker 1: so glad that you brought it up, and it didn't
Speaker 1: feel like we were like attacking anybody. And not to
Speaker 1: speak ill of the dead, but it is a specific
Speaker 1: experience and not having seen The Fresh Prince is something
Speaker 1: that I can't even imagine. Um, and watch the Fresh
Speaker 1: Friends people, Chris watches The Press Prince. But you had
Speaker 1: mentioned Amantha Stenberg and Uh, they were very controversially. Not
Speaker 1: it wasn't controversial for the casting, but there was a
Speaker 1: sort of firestorm after they were cast in The Hunger Games. Uh.
Speaker 1: And I think it's interesting because there was a newspaper
Speaker 1: article about you and about your book, and it has
Speaker 1: this beautiful picture of you on it. Yes, yes, my
Speaker 1: mom has a printer. I'm living large. And in this
Speaker 1: article by Adriana Ramirez, they talk about how your book
Speaker 1: could be to some considered a sort of disk topic
Speaker 1: book in the same realm as The Hunger Games and
Speaker 1: UH and Maze Runner and all these books that have
Speaker 1: these huge film adaptations that the kids are very into,
Speaker 1: but it just happens to be set in reality. How
Speaker 1: do you feel about that classification and characterization? Yeah, and
Speaker 1: I will go back to the casting thing because I
Speaker 1: don't mind talking about that too. You know, there was
Speaker 1: controversy with our film and Manpla being cast that star
Speaker 1: because you know, the cover of the book shows a
Speaker 1: dark skinned girl and here's a manned love by racial
Speaker 1: and we're talking about colorism. Colorism is real, and how
Speaker 1: I would I will not say it's not real, let
Speaker 1: me put that out there, but I will say that
Speaker 1: in this instance, a Mandela was cast before the cover
Speaker 1: was made. And it goes back to that whole thing
Speaker 1: of book Baby versus movie baby, so it was like
Speaker 1: they acted sometimes that's if it was two different things.
Speaker 1: So you know, that's just that. I will say that.
Speaker 1: But no, colorism is real in Hollywood. Um, And I
Speaker 1: will point I want to put this out there too.
Speaker 1: I am hoping for a darker skinned black girl to
Speaker 1: play Brianna. All right, now, now as far as that goes,
Speaker 1: you know, hearing that when I read that article, well,
Speaker 1: I didn't read the article because I rarely read articles
Speaker 1: about me. My mom very My mama reads them, which
Speaker 1: is worse. Uh no, but like her, we have a
Speaker 1: whole lot of family out in l A. So one
Speaker 1: of her cousins called her and she was like, girl,
Speaker 1: and she's in l a time, let me send you
Speaker 1: this article. And so my mom was reading and when
Speaker 1: I heard that part, you know, I get it. But
Speaker 1: it's also heartbreaking because that's kind of insinuating that black
Speaker 1: kids live in an entirely different world than the rest
Speaker 1: of us. And that's honestly, in some ways the reality.
Speaker 1: Like in the past few weeks, as we've had in months,
Speaker 1: as we've had these conversations about racism here in America
Speaker 1: and police brutality and all of these things, I'm starting
Speaker 1: to realize that a majority of white people have been
Speaker 1: living in an entirely different country than me. Because it's like,
Speaker 1: y'all don't notice this stuff, y'all haven't been y'all don't
Speaker 1: realize this stuff. Like my folks had the conversation with
Speaker 1: me as a young kid in the nineties about what
Speaker 1: to do if I'm stopped by a cop and you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is new, No, it's not, you know, So in
Speaker 1: a lot of ways, young Black people in this country
Speaker 1: have been living in a dystopian world. Why everybody else
Speaker 1: has been living in what they feel is if a utopia,
Speaker 1: you know, And and we don't talk about the fact
Speaker 1: that there are multiple types of America, you know, and
Speaker 1: and and I'm at the point I don't want equality.
Speaker 1: I want equity. I want equity for my young people,
Speaker 1: you know. So yeah, I think if you're not used
Speaker 1: to knowing these things, if these things are brand new
Speaker 1: to you, absolutely to hate you give feels like a dystopia.
Speaker 1: But for a lot of young people, it's just their reality.
Speaker 1: It's the America that they know, America that they've been given.
Speaker 1: And and that's that's that's a problem, that's absolute problems.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it broke my heart. But I realized, yep,
Speaker 1: that's pretty right on the money. Was there something sort
Speaker 1: of bitter sweet? I'm not even sweet, but like this summer,
Speaker 1: I feel like with such a reckoning for so much
Speaker 1: of America to realize it, to to be talking about
Speaker 1: black lives matter publicly and and have it become sort
Speaker 1: of a massive movement with mainstream support, like among the
Speaker 1: suburban you know, like the poles, among like suburban people
Speaker 1: now It was that sort of bitter sweet being like
Speaker 1: you wrote this book in two thousand seventeen, Like why
Speaker 1: are we only talking about this now? Yeah? It was
Speaker 1: you know, you know, I'll admit like, ever since Mr
Speaker 1: Floyd lost his life and Brianna Taylor lost her life
Speaker 1: and Ahmad are Very lost his life, people have been
Speaker 1: turned into my book more. Which is it hurts, you know,
Speaker 1: like my my sales one week, we're just through the roof,
Speaker 1: and yeah, people want to read and learn more. But
Speaker 1: here we are. You know, we've been yelling black lives
Speaker 1: matter for years now, and some of y'all are just
Speaker 1: starting to understand it is not an attack on you,
Speaker 1: you know, like, okay, now we got the basics side
Speaker 1: of the way, can we get into more of this?
Speaker 1: You know, Like it's it's just it's just getting to
Speaker 1: the point where it feels like that phrase is starting
Speaker 1: to not be as taboo, and for the longest it
Speaker 1: felt so taboo, like I'm saying black lives matter, I'm
Speaker 1: making a political statement. No, I'm literally telling you my
Speaker 1: life matters, right, Why does that have to be a
Speaker 1: political statement? So it's bitter sweet, But then at the
Speaker 1: same time, it feels like, all right, that's the that's
Speaker 1: the light work. What's next? You know. Yeah, it's cool
Speaker 1: that New York you know that the mayor wanted to
Speaker 1: paint Black Lives Matter in front of the Orange Man's Tower. Great,
Speaker 1: but all right, so what are you doing about police
Speaker 1: brutality in New York? It's not and all of this
Speaker 1: stuff that has set so many people in New York,
Speaker 1: specifically that are black and brown people back for years
Speaker 1: and years and years exactly. Yeah, it's a lot of
Speaker 1: very lovely lip service. I feel like, yes, a lot
Speaker 1: of lip service. You know. I'm here in Mississippi and
Speaker 1: they just finally changed the flag we wanted to you
Speaker 1: are from Mississippi. Yeah, so Mississippi, for those of you
Speaker 1: who do not know, has the bars and stars as
Speaker 1: part of its state flag. And well, I said bars
Speaker 1: and stars specifically, because there are several different Confederate flags
Speaker 1: and the bars and stars is not one of the
Speaker 1: main ones. I just think it's funny that people have
Speaker 1: really held on to this one and they're like, this
Speaker 1: is the one that is the most racist. Um, but
Speaker 1: Mississippi has the bars and stars as part of its
Speaker 1: state flag, and they are now finally asking should we
Speaker 1: remove this? I mean, there have been people who have
Speaker 1: been asking for a long time, hey, why does this
Speaker 1: have to be part of our state flag? But now
Speaker 1: with everything going on in the country and eyes on
Speaker 1: them and Confederate flags being banned in like NASCAR, which
Speaker 1: was just the most shocking reveal of that NASCAR was
Speaker 1: gonna be the like, the most progressive in action organization
Speaker 1: out of everything. And we all just learned about Bubba
Speaker 1: Wallace and we're all here to support him through everything
Speaker 1: he does forever. But I think that how do you feel,
Speaker 1: as a Mississippian with this flag and having grown up
Speaker 1: with this flag, seeing it finally addressed, but also wondering
Speaker 1: why nobody was listening to the voices beforehand calling for
Speaker 1: it to be removed. You know, the thing about Mississippi,
Speaker 1: and it's something that I've realized now as an adult,
Speaker 1: is that I grew up not realizing that some some
Speaker 1: things were as bad as they are. It's not until
Speaker 1: you go other places or you meet people who aren't
Speaker 1: from here that you realize, oh, that's oh wow. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, like the shock of it hit you. Like
Speaker 1: with the flag, you know, I remember when they first
Speaker 1: did the vote back in two thousand one. Um, I
Speaker 1: was like eleven, twelve years old, and I remember the
Speaker 1: conversations around it before that, I didn't realize the flag
Speaker 1: was a bad thing. I knew it was bad. I
Speaker 1: knew the Confederate stuff was bad. I knew all that
Speaker 1: was bad. I knew it was you know, associated with
Speaker 1: slavery and et cetera. But it wasn't until people started
Speaker 1: pointing out how bad it was that I realized not one,
Speaker 1: not just that it was bad, but too that it
Speaker 1: can be changed because it was normal to me. It
Speaker 1: was normal to me that my state had a flag
Speaker 1: that told me I was not as equal as everybody else.
Speaker 1: And when you realized that was the mindset I had
Speaker 1: as a kid, thinking, you know, this state has told
Speaker 1: me that I don't have as much value as it's
Speaker 1: white citizens. And I grew to accept that. That's how
Speaker 1: a lot of young people here have felt. And it's
Speaker 1: not okay. So when you know, when the conversations have
Speaker 1: been ramping up about the flag my entire adult life,
Speaker 1: there have been fights against that flag, and and nobody
Speaker 1: wanted to listen to. Politicians didn't want to listen. Even
Speaker 1: our newest governor when he took office, he was like,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna change it. Now, here's the thing, and
Speaker 1: I'm glad it's changing. Yeah, but I also recognized that
Speaker 1: it did not come down to black or white. It
Speaker 1: was about green. It was totally about green. When you
Speaker 1: have somebody pointed it out on Twitter, they were like,
Speaker 1: you know, another Mississippian was like, of course the government
Speaker 1: here finally changed the flag. They had the three main
Speaker 1: staples of Southern living that came at him, that is
Speaker 1: college football, the Baptist and Walmart like trend right there.
Speaker 1: You know, you have these three coming at them saying
Speaker 1: we're not gonna bring things there, We're gonna stop doing
Speaker 1: this there it became about money. And then it just
Speaker 1: came out within the past week that Google is now
Speaker 1: building one of their first UM customer service centers in
Speaker 1: Mississippi within the next few years. Oh, I know exactly
Speaker 1: why y'all change the flag. Probably threatened to not come here,
Speaker 1: so it came down to green. And that's feel like
Speaker 1: what's happening with the Washington football team right now that
Speaker 1: acts strong arming them and it's like it should be changed.
Speaker 1: But I feel personally, for me, I want that change
Speaker 1: to also come from a place of oh, this is bad,
Speaker 1: not just oh I will face irrec irreparable consequences if
Speaker 1: I don't do this thing that people are forcing me
Speaker 1: to do. And like with Rhode Island, the state of
Speaker 1: Rhode Island, I don't know if y'all heard, but the
Speaker 1: full name of the State of Rhode Island is the
Speaker 1: State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations. And they first
Speaker 1: voted to change that when I was a college student
Speaker 1: in Rhode Island. And that's when I found out. I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, I don't like that at all, and
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, and they are finally changing it. But the
Speaker 1: reason the vote didn't go through in two thousand and
Speaker 1: ten when I was a college student was because of money.
Speaker 1: It was because they didn't want to pay to change
Speaker 1: all of the official stuff. And they were like, well,
Speaker 1: who really cares, And it's like, well, I care, and
Speaker 1: I'm not planning. I was not planning on being a
Speaker 1: permanent resident of a State of Rhode Island. But if
Speaker 1: people feel unsafe or unwelcome, I feel like that matters.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely. And the funny thing we're here, what
Speaker 1: the flag is? Now? All of these politicians are saying
Speaker 1: what the right things. They're saying what they should have
Speaker 1: been saying all along of yeah, it promotes division, we
Speaker 1: need a flag in Unified. I'm like, oh, so you
Speaker 1: knew that the whole time you've been pushing back on
Speaker 1: changing it. You knew this. You knew this. It's just
Speaker 1: now it took money coming into the fold, you know.
Speaker 1: So it's it's gonna be interesting to see how this
Speaker 1: goes and how it turns out. Um, we get to
Speaker 1: vote in November on a new state flag design, which
Speaker 1: will fascinating. Um. But you know there are people who
Speaker 1: are spitfire mad, as we say, because they didn't get
Speaker 1: to vote on whether we keep the original flag or not.
Speaker 1: So let him be mad, I'm saying, let him be mad.
Speaker 1: I was like, I want if there was no pandemic
Speaker 1: right now, I would have held a flag burning party.
Speaker 1: I would have burned that suffer down several times in
Speaker 1: my yard. Like it would have been literally changing the
Speaker 1: subject slightly back to the book. I was curious, obviously,
Speaker 1: as a as a y a novel, you know you
Speaker 1: can't get into the full complexity of certain issues, and
Speaker 1: for many readers, you know, it is a first exposure
Speaker 1: to like that sort of first hand trauma. But I
Speaker 1: was curious about the character of Carlops and making him
Speaker 1: a cop, and your decision process and making him a cup,
Speaker 1: and and any pushedback or thoughts that you have on that,
Speaker 1: because especially now, there's this idea going around that you know,
Speaker 1: the institution of policing is so fundamentally broken that you
Speaker 1: can't change it from within the system. And I was
Speaker 1: just interested in your perspective on that. Yeah, I will say,
Speaker 1: you know, my my perspective on has evolved over time.
Speaker 1: You know, we're all learning, we're all growing now. When
Speaker 1: I wrote the character Carlos, originally I wrote him um
Speaker 1: with my own family members in mine who are police officers.
Speaker 1: When I first got to talk about what to do
Speaker 1: if I've ever stopped by a cop, it was from
Speaker 1: my cousin, who was a cop um because he knew
Speaker 1: some of his fellow officers tended to abuse their powers.
Speaker 1: So with the character Carlos, I wanted to show a
Speaker 1: black cop and some of what they deal with because
Speaker 1: a lot of them will tell you, you know, well,
Speaker 1: inside of the uniform, I'm seeing as a sellout. Outside
Speaker 1: of the uniform, I'm still a suspect. You know, I
Speaker 1: remember reading recently a Twitter thread of a black police
Speaker 1: officer who was investigating a case outside at night with
Speaker 1: a flashlight, going around somebody's backyard with a flashlight, trying
Speaker 1: to find bullet shells or something like that. And nine
Speaker 1: one one gotta call of a suspicious black man in
Speaker 1: a backyard with a flashlight. You know, so we're dispatching
Speaker 1: officers right now, they're already there. So like, through that character,
Speaker 1: I wanted to address that. But I also wanted to
Speaker 1: show an officer who holds his fellow officers accountable, because
Speaker 1: you know, at that point for me, that was one
Speaker 1: of the biggest things I wanted. Now as I've learned more,
Speaker 1: and you know, and and and and read more, researched more,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm I'm all about you know, abolishment, Um,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm I believe we can have a police free
Speaker 1: world as possible. Um, I'm all about you know, putting
Speaker 1: at least starting out with defunding the police and putting
Speaker 1: those funds into other things that benefit communities such as housing,
Speaker 1: social services, etcetera, etcetera. Now, you know, I think too
Speaker 1: with the character movie wise, you know, there were a
Speaker 1: lot of conversations about the character in the movie, and
Speaker 1: specifically the conversation he has with star Um where he's
Speaker 1: you know, talking about what goes through an officer's mind,
Speaker 1: and people like oh that that you know, that was
Speaker 1: you guys explaining cops again, Like we need that perspective again.
Speaker 1: Now for me, I would say for me, I saw
Speaker 1: it as him coming to recognize his own internal bias,
Speaker 1: you know, him realizing, Yeah, if it was a black person,
Speaker 1: I've been so conditioned that even as a black man,
Speaker 1: I would probably shoot first, which is sad, but that's
Speaker 1: so true. I mean, let's look at Atlanta for a second.
Speaker 1: Most of the Atlanta Police Department is black, and they're
Speaker 1: still dealing with police brutality because we're talking about a
Speaker 1: root issue, uh, internal bias that's just been that has
Speaker 1: poison this entire system. So if you're talking about something
Speaker 1: at the root, you gotta chop it down, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. So my perspective has definitely changed. But
Speaker 1: that character was one that for me at the time,
Speaker 1: I just wanted to show this what a black cop
Speaker 1: deals with in the sense of being a suspect and
Speaker 1: a sellout, but also him coming to recognize his fellow
Speaker 1: officers need to be held accountable, and to a degree.
Speaker 1: In the book, we see him come to realize that
Speaker 1: there's a systemic problem here. You know. You know, a
Speaker 1: lot of people tell me Carlos was an uncle Tom.
Speaker 1: Look y'all, Carlos gotta grow too. Yeah, I wasn't like
Speaker 1: there was a lot of growth Carlos. And the that
Speaker 1: I did miss in the movie that I didn't join
Speaker 1: seeing Academy Award winner common in the film, I only
Speaker 1: re him as Academy Award winner comic. But I do
Speaker 1: think it's important and people need to recognize that, Like,
Speaker 1: he's a character, and you write characters, and everything that
Speaker 1: a character says in your book is not necessarily something
Speaker 1: that you Andrew Thomas as a human being believes like
Speaker 1: there are just characters that exists. Oh yeah, our own
Speaker 1: flaws different from your character. Well, and it does feel
Speaker 1: like usually the cop that we see that has arc
Speaker 1: regarding racism as a white cop. So it is, you know,
Speaker 1: a different perspective, and I appreciated that it was all
Speaker 1: through the perspective of Star In the end, thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you. Yeah, this is Popcorn Book Club. We'll be
Speaker 1: right back after this quick break. Okay, we're back with
Speaker 1: Popcorn Book Club. I did want to talk about Carlos
Speaker 1: again really quickly. Um, just because uh, as I was
Speaker 1: reading the book, I didn't look at the casting for
Speaker 1: the film outside of before I finished the book. I
Speaker 1: knew that Amanda was playing star obviously, but I want
Speaker 1: to bring it back to tourism and talk about how,
Speaker 1: you know, in the black community, we have light skinned people,
Speaker 1: we have dark skinned people. Sometimes you see somebody and
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, she had real light skin. Um. And
Speaker 1: it's funny because as I was reading it, I was like,
Speaker 1: I feel like, Lisa and Carlos are light skinned, and
Speaker 1: did you have any sort of decision process in who
Speaker 1: you were making the light skinned characters and who you
Speaker 1: were making the dark skinned characters? Because when I saw
Speaker 1: it and I saw that Common was playing off with Carlos,
Speaker 1: I was like, that works for me. I understand that choice. Yeah.
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny too because yeah, in the book
Speaker 1: it's mentioned that, uh, Carlos and Lisa, their mom refers
Speaker 1: to them as high yellow. I did, yeah, I thought
Speaker 1: that before I read it, and I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know. There I tried not to overthake it too much.
Speaker 1: But there were times where, you know, I thought about
Speaker 1: the with Lisa and Carlos, especially um and and their
Speaker 1: upbringing and and how they're perceived in the neighborhood, and
Speaker 1: but also with Carlos, how he perceived the neighborhood as
Speaker 1: a light scanned person. I'm gonna say, sometimes light skinned folks,
Speaker 1: you know, uh, can it can be a little how
Speaker 1: should I put it? With Carlos specifically, with this character,
Speaker 1: we see he's got light scanned privilege. Okay, sometimes people
Speaker 1: just be acting light scan exactly exactly, and that's like
Speaker 1: with Carlos. I definitely thought of him as one of
Speaker 1: these light skinned brothers who you know, he's like, well,
Speaker 1: if you just talk a certain way, if you present
Speaker 1: yourself a certain way, it'll be okay, not recognizing bro.
Speaker 1: You at times get privileged because you're not seen in
Speaker 1: the same way that Maverick would be seen because Maverick
Speaker 1: is darker skin and when he enters spaces, he's already
Speaker 1: got a little more against him. Name you will because
Speaker 1: you are light skinned brother, you know. So I definitely
Speaker 1: thought of that when I was, especially with those two characters,
Speaker 1: was crafting them because you know, Carlos, Carlos still even
Speaker 1: in the book, he doesn't recognize that, he doesn't recognize
Speaker 1: that he's not seen as a threat nearly as much
Speaker 1: as Mavery. And you know, he's the kind of character
Speaker 1: would be like, well if he wasn't in the game
Speaker 1: where But no, sir, it's more to it than just that.
Speaker 1: So I definitely thought of that when I was correcting
Speaker 1: those two. One change between the movie and the book
Speaker 1: that I was curious about some changes, like DeVante, You're
Speaker 1: like that you just can't fit everything into a film.
Speaker 1: There's just you know, questions all the time. So mad
Speaker 1: at me that Defonte wasn't in the movie. I'm like, y'all,
Speaker 1: it's okay, Dfonte and Nanna are in the book. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But one change I was curious about is at the
Speaker 1: end of the film they decided to stay in Garden
Speaker 1: Heights where the book they leave was who what was
Speaker 1: that decision process? Like, you know that one It was
Speaker 1: interesting how that came about because in the movie, I
Speaker 1: will say, like in the movie, originally they were going
Speaker 1: to move. Um, they were going to move in the
Speaker 1: movie originally um, And what happened, as we say, what
Speaker 1: had happened was, Um, they started doing screenings of the
Speaker 1: film with test audiences, and one thing that test audiences
Speaker 1: were saying was, we've become so attached to the neighborhood,
Speaker 1: and it seems as if they're so attached, it doesn't
Speaker 1: make sense that they leave. And I was like, now,
Speaker 1: because the big difference with the book and the movie
Speaker 1: is it's a little more focused on in the book
Speaker 1: at times. You know, for Lisa and Maverick, that's kind
Speaker 1: of their storyline. She wants to leave, he wants to stay,
Speaker 1: and he has to come to the realization that where
Speaker 1: you live does not define who you are, all right,
Speaker 1: So we don't see it as much in the movie.
Speaker 1: Like there's a scene in the movie where Lisa and
Speaker 1: Maverick are like in the bedroom and it's mentioned and
Speaker 1: they kind of go and Lisa tell tells, Um, you know,
Speaker 1: where you live does not define who you are, and
Speaker 1: but and yeah, that conversation happens, but it's not still
Speaker 1: as focused on as it is in the book. So
Speaker 1: I guess the audiences didn't, um, weren't as convinced about it.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, but you know, for me, that was
Speaker 1: my own struggle. You know, I could. I could see
Speaker 1: it going either way with them in the book, But like,
Speaker 1: that was my own struggle once I started, you know,
Speaker 1: making getting financially secure as an author, it was like
Speaker 1: do I stay in my neighborhood or do I leave?
Speaker 1: You know? And and that was I think a lot
Speaker 1: of black people who if you've ever lived in a
Speaker 1: neighborhood like Guarden Heights and you get the opportunity to leave,
Speaker 1: you may deal with us struggle as well. So that
Speaker 1: was definitely my own but um, yeah it worked. I
Speaker 1: think it worked well in the book, and the decision
Speaker 1: that was made in the movie worked as well for it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I definitely see that. I feel like in the book,
Speaker 1: we do get this fear that Maverick has it being
Speaker 1: seen as like up to your Soddy for leaving, and
Speaker 1: it doesn't translate on screen in the narrative that was
Speaker 1: created in the screen, Like you said, their fraternal twins,
Speaker 1: and it's like, Okay, I see how now you've said
Speaker 1: test audiences were one of the major factors. I definitely
Speaker 1: see how that could be a factor sort of in
Speaker 1: relation to that you ultimately did not leave Garden Heights
Speaker 1: on the come up and now Concrete Rose, You're staying
Speaker 1: in Garden Heights, and I find that so interesting, Um,
Speaker 1: that you're creating such a such a tapestry there of
Speaker 1: all these characters. Did you know that when you were
Speaker 1: finishing the Um, when you were finishing the hat you give,
Speaker 1: that you wanted to return to Garden Heights And I
Speaker 1: know it's not a real place, but it's based on
Speaker 1: where you grew up. Yeah, you know, Um, I did
Speaker 1: know that I would at least go back for one
Speaker 1: more book. I'm going to tell y'all something a little
Speaker 1: insider info. In the end of like the Hate You
Speaker 1: Give Um and the riots and everything, there's a point
Speaker 1: where Star seven, Chris and Davonte hop into a truck
Speaker 1: with this guy and there's a girl in the back
Speaker 1: whose name is Brief. Originally that was going to be
Speaker 1: Brief from on the come up, but I ended up
Speaker 1: changing some stuff, and so now that ate that Breeze
Speaker 1: another Breed because there could be two black girls named
Speaker 1: Breed and the same. But like I knew I was
Speaker 1: going to go back to the neighborhood. I knew my
Speaker 1: second book was going to be about hip hop because
Speaker 1: I was like, what do you do after this, you know,
Speaker 1: what do you do in the Garden Heights after this?
Speaker 1: And I thought a lot about hip hop and how
Speaker 1: it started out. You know, you're talking about an art
Speaker 1: form and started in the Bronx during the Bronx burnings
Speaker 1: when all of these buildings were being destroyed and young
Speaker 1: people were facing all of these hardships in the Bronx,
Speaker 1: And somehow, some way from the ashes of that, they
Speaker 1: created an art form that is now the biggest selling
Speaker 1: music genre in the world. You know, it crosses color lines,
Speaker 1: acrosses languages. Hip Hop start by teenagers in a basement,
Speaker 1: you know, during all of that, And I was like,
Speaker 1: how do young how with young people in the neighborhood
Speaker 1: like that find their voices after something like that, or
Speaker 1: find some hope. And I wanted to use hip hop
Speaker 1: as a tool for that, So I knew I wanted
Speaker 1: to go back then. Like, honestly, I had no intention
Speaker 1: of writing any more books about the Carters or anything
Speaker 1: after the Hate You Give. It was like, while I
Speaker 1: was on set of the movie talking to Russell Hornsby,
Speaker 1: who did a phenomenal jobs and was freaking robbed of awards.
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna say that I second that. No, he
Speaker 1: was incredible, and you know, we didn't talk about him
Speaker 1: much in our previous episode. So I'm glad you brought
Speaker 1: him up because he was incredible Maverick. He was just
Speaker 1: he embodied that role in a way that was phenomenal.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry I cut you off. Please continue. No, no, no,
Speaker 1: you're good. You're good. Though I could talk about Russell
Speaker 1: horns Be all day like he as Maverick, Like he
Speaker 1: just he brought it that role. He blessed us all
Speaker 1: with that um you know, but talking to him while
Speaker 1: he was becoming the character, and he's asking me questions
Speaker 1: about the character, but also he's transforming into the character.
Speaker 1: This is what this is one thing that people don't
Speaker 1: know about, Like Russell when he did Maverick, Like Russell
Speaker 1: had a whole walk from Maverick, Like he walked different
Speaker 1: when he was Maverick, and like he he talked different
Speaker 1: when he was Maverick. His whole persona changed. Like when
Speaker 1: he walked on set, it was like, that's not Russell,
Speaker 1: that's Maverick. That's the kind of actor he is. And
Speaker 1: so seeing him as the character and talking to him
Speaker 1: and him asking me questions about the character, and stuff
Speaker 1: like that. It made me a little more take a
Speaker 1: little closer look at the character myself and go, huh,
Speaker 1: let me figure out that. Let me see if I
Speaker 1: can answer that. So, you know, then going on tour
Speaker 1: and being around people asking me all the time of
Speaker 1: about him, that character more than any other character. I
Speaker 1: gotta say, like, grown women love them some Mavericks. Also
Speaker 1: like a dream husband that relationship, and like such a
Speaker 1: tender dad too. It's like, yeah, you see y'all are
Speaker 1: doing it right now, dad, Oh my god. Like you know,
Speaker 1: with the kids, they're all like Khalil seven blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: But the grown women they're like, oh my god, Maverick,
Speaker 1: I'll need me a Maverick like that got a fan club.
Speaker 1: And so I was like, I want to explore that
Speaker 1: character more. And that's when I I made the decision,
Speaker 1: Like after the film, I was like, you know what,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go back one more time the Garden Heights
Speaker 1: and explore Maverick and his story as a teenager and
Speaker 1: see how he became the person that we know and
Speaker 1: the hate you give. So this will probably be my
Speaker 1: last book, and Garden Heights, um, my fourth book is
Speaker 1: going to be said in Mississippi, which is to write about.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I got a whole lot to write about here.
Speaker 1: I'm like, after this book, they're gonna put me out.
Speaker 1: They're gonna make you governor. That's can I ask quickly?
Speaker 1: And was there ever a moment that you had you
Speaker 1: thought about putting Garden Heights as a real like city
Speaker 1: or was it always did you always wanted to be
Speaker 1: fictional so that it could be more universal in the
Speaker 1: way that you approached that story. You know, there was
Speaker 1: a time where I was like, I should probably put
Speaker 1: this somewhere. But the problem was one I wasn't fond
Speaker 1: of putting it in Jackson. And that was just because
Speaker 1: I I hated my status. I have such a rocky
Speaker 1: relationship with my hometown, my home state, and I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm not putting it there. I'm not giving them that
Speaker 1: I'm not so like, I was like, no, i should
Speaker 1: put it in Atlanta, even though I've never been to
Speaker 1: it about Atlanta. So like, eventually I was like, you
Speaker 1: know what, no, just don't give a certain city or
Speaker 1: state because I felt like, you know, I wanted to
Speaker 1: put a show that this could be anywhere, you know,
Speaker 1: and and The beauty of it is I go different
Speaker 1: places and people like, this is Chicago, isn't it? Or
Speaker 1: this is South this is South l A. Isn't it?
Speaker 1: This is Atlanta, isn't it? And you know, Mississippi folks,
Speaker 1: this is Jackson right. You know? Yeah, it became an
Speaker 1: easy decision. Uh so you have been built as a
Speaker 1: former tea and rapper. Is there a place where we
Speaker 1: can listen to your music? No? I had my mom
Speaker 1: to destroy all. I think she's got like one that
Speaker 1: she's holding us blackmail against mom. I took everything down.
Speaker 1: I was not it. I was not it at all.
Speaker 1: But speaking of your mom, I know that, Um, in
Speaker 1: this book, there is a lot of parental sort of
Speaker 1: counter education or a supplemental education that happens about the
Speaker 1: Black Panthers and about black history. And uh, I know
Speaker 1: that I got some of that. I know. My mom
Speaker 1: was doing my hair one time, which, as you know,
Speaker 1: takes many hours, and I was like, I want to
Speaker 1: watch Anastasia And she said, okay, can I watch a
Speaker 1: movie first and then we'll watch Anastasia after? And I said, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: that seems fair. I'm I'm a I'm a reasonable person.
Speaker 1: And she made me watch all of Roots, the original
Speaker 1: miniseries in One City, My Hair, just one movie. But
Speaker 1: you know, I'm glad she did it because I feel
Speaker 1: like I was really resistant to any additional education, Like
Speaker 1: why do I need to know this? Why do I
Speaker 1: need a children's book about Jesse Owens? Or why do
Speaker 1: I need a children's book about Charles Drill. Why can't
Speaker 1: I read the same books as all my friends? So
Speaker 1: I just wanted to ask you about them, the process
Speaker 1: in terms of deciding to show that, and how you
Speaker 1: showed that, and how you brought in the Nation of
Speaker 1: Islam briefly, and the Black Panthers and Hip Newton and
Speaker 1: all of that. Yeah, you know, it was important because
Speaker 1: those things are not discussed enough in schools. And I
Speaker 1: remember as I was working on The Hate You Give,
Speaker 1: I had this thought. I was like, what if this
Speaker 1: ends up being required reading in some school, Oh, let's
Speaker 1: throw in some history stuff so they can know the
Speaker 1: real deal, you know, like with the Black Panthers, there's
Speaker 1: so many misconceptions, like young people don't know that the
Speaker 1: reason they have free breakfast. Yeah, the Black Panthers, you know,
Speaker 1: you know they've been villainized. And and then dr King
Speaker 1: has been sanitized, so you know, we we don't, we
Speaker 1: don't our Our kids are not being equipped enough through
Speaker 1: the history books. Um, they're they're not being given the
Speaker 1: real deal. And I was like, okay, you know, if
Speaker 1: I'm keeping it real in this book, I want that.
Speaker 1: And and then crafting Maverick. Back to Maverick, you know,
Speaker 1: I was like, who is this guy? He would be
Speaker 1: into that stuff. That's him, you know, that's that's his
Speaker 1: m O in a lot of ways, that's that's where,
Speaker 1: that's his um, his avenue of wokeness, you know, radical blackness.
Speaker 1: And so I wanted to pull that in. But I
Speaker 1: wanted to show too that there are so many different
Speaker 1: um there have been so many different movements and movements
Speaker 1: that have looked different ways within just the black community alone.
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, you had the silvil rights movement, but
Speaker 1: you also had the Black Power movement. You had all
Speaker 1: of these different things. These are not new battles that
Speaker 1: we've been fighting. You know, when the Black Panthers pinned
Speaker 1: the Ten Point Program, they were saying, we want an
Speaker 1: end to police brutality. Back then, we're still asking for
Speaker 1: it now. So I wanted to show young people this
Speaker 1: is not new. We've been fighting, We're gonna keep fighting.
Speaker 1: So it was definitely a portant to include all of that.
Speaker 1: And you know, I'm working now and fifth book as well,
Speaker 1: which is like middle grade fantasy, and I'm pulling black
Speaker 1: history into that in so many different ways. I'm like,
Speaker 1: the kids are gonna learn something. I got a whole
Speaker 1: reading list for my niece. Now, azing, Um, Dana, I
Speaker 1: know you had a question. Oh yeah, Well now I'm
Speaker 1: just saying, like, thank god that you have to give
Speaker 1: every Haley in the world every copy of your book.
Speaker 1: I could tell you Haley is based on a real person.
Speaker 1: Does she know? Does she know? Okay, So she read
Speaker 1: the hate you give and she was like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: Angie was someone like this. I knew that was gonna
Speaker 1: be the rest classic Hanley classic. Yeah, and she goes,
Speaker 1: oh my god, who And I was like, look in
Speaker 1: the mirror. So we have not spoken since, and I'm
Speaker 1: sure she has texted you. I am so sorry that
Speaker 1: you felt that way. I am so sorry you reacted badly.
Speaker 1: The apologies from Haley, We're just chef. My mom caused them.
Speaker 1: Apolloize Pola Lie. If you apola line, you're not really
Speaker 1: apologize and that's a lie. So is Maya based on
Speaker 1: someone too? Or yes, yes, yes, yes, So a lot
Speaker 1: of my college classmates made their way into the And
Speaker 1: the funny thing is, like of all the characters in
Speaker 1: the books, nobody recognized themselves, but the person who the
Speaker 1: character of forty Ounce is based on and fort made
Speaker 1: who are drunk, nobody else recognized themselves except where they
Speaker 1: really drunk. Can I ask was there a Chris? Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: that's all I was saying, Okay, that Chris was not
Speaker 1: woke either, that Chris was in a freaking coma as
Speaker 1: far as woke miss goes. I like. I like that
Speaker 1: Chris in the book tried to learn and tried to
Speaker 1: get and tried to know star. I thought that it
Speaker 1: was nice that, like Okay, there was growth and the
Speaker 1: test was made. I will say I would not encourage
Speaker 1: any of my home girls today Chris. What if what
Speaker 1: if he looked like hot archy grandma? Because movie Chris
Speaker 1: is worse than book Chris in my opinion. Let me
Speaker 1: just say that character like gave me the most headaches,
Speaker 1: like not just as a writer, but even with the
Speaker 1: film process. Because I will talk about it a little bit.
Speaker 1: But like as a writer, it was hard to write
Speaker 1: Chris because I've never been a great, rich white boy,
Speaker 1: you know, and like I was like, how do I
Speaker 1: write this character? Was hard? And then you know, with
Speaker 1: the film process, we had to recast the character. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: like the original young man who played Chris Um, I
Speaker 1: won't say his name. Um, he's learning and growing. Bless
Speaker 1: his heart, you know, I have nothing against him, but
Speaker 1: you know, videos came out um where he had been
Speaker 1: using the N word and stuff like that and making
Speaker 1: racist jokes. And we had just finished filming the movie
Speaker 1: and had to recast the character, reshoot the scenes, and
Speaker 1: Mandela had to go through because the scenes with Chris
Speaker 1: are all hard scenes had to go through that again
Speaker 1: with Um, with kJ and all that. So it was
Speaker 1: just like it was hard. So I have to admit,
Speaker 1: like the process with Chris in the book and in
Speaker 1: the film was just so much hardship, so hard, and
Speaker 1: so much Trump for me that that's why you do
Speaker 1: not see any white boys. And on the cover there
Speaker 1: are enough the white boys can get roles in other movies.
Speaker 1: They've been they've been. Yeah. Can I ask Aye what
Speaker 1: you're reading this summer? What am I reading? Um? I
Speaker 1: let's see, I just finished the book Grown by Tiffany D. Jackson.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna shout about that book from beginning to end. Um.
Speaker 1: It is about a young black girl who has dreams
Speaker 1: of being a singer and this superstar R and B
Speaker 1: singer takes her under his wing and it becomes some
Speaker 1: really dark stuff happening. And it's really about it's loosely
Speaker 1: based on the R. Kelly stuff. Wow. So but what
Speaker 1: Tiffany does is she shows us the ways in which
Speaker 1: black girls and their innocence is often stolen and the
Speaker 1: ways in which we as people, um even take that
Speaker 1: from them in our heads, ourselves. Like, she plays a
Speaker 1: whole my game with the reader in this book. And
Speaker 1: you're gonna put it down. And once you put that
Speaker 1: book down, you're gonna end up checking yourself on some things.
Speaker 1: I kid you not so like Grown by Tiffany D. Jackson.
Speaker 1: Read it, Read it, read it, absorb it. I'm still
Speaker 1: thinking about that book. Thank you. I feel like that
Speaker 1: maybe is a is a good place to end on.
Speaker 1: But I did have, uh one question, is there because
Speaker 1: you have obviously been promoting this book for such a
Speaker 1: long time and talking about the hate you give? Is
Speaker 1: there one question that you never want to answer again
Speaker 1: that you just want to say, like, please do not
Speaker 1: ask me because I've always people have to do so
Speaker 1: many interviews and so many q and a s. Is
Speaker 1: there something you are super tired of? Um, let's see.
Speaker 1: The one question that I think I am tired of
Speaker 1: is so, what do you want white people to take
Speaker 1: from this book? The book? Like, I don't know if
Speaker 1: I'm supposed to answer that. It's like, that's not my job.
Speaker 1: So I think that's the one question that like, if
Speaker 1: nobody ever asked me that again, I would be totally fine.
Speaker 1: He wrote a whole book, Just read the book exactly.
Speaker 1: Whatever they take from it is whatever they take. I'm
Speaker 1: I'm afraid. I'm afraid for you that people will continue
Speaker 1: to ask that question about lawyer books. My mom always
Speaker 1: has this quote from Tony Morrison that she likes to
Speaker 1: give where somebody, somebody in an interview asked, Tony Morrison,
Speaker 1: you could sum this book up into one sentence, what
Speaker 1: would you say about it? And she's like, well, I
Speaker 1: wrote the whole book, so I didn't have to write
Speaker 1: a sentence like I wrote a whole funk I know
Speaker 1: that we are running out of time, and we want
Speaker 1: to thank you so much for coming. But I also
Speaker 1: do want to address something that we have been very
Speaker 1: argumentative about, the mac and cheese debate. I am on
Speaker 1: the side of mac and cheese. Is a side dish.
Speaker 1: You do not bread crumbs on it, and you make
Speaker 1: it in the oven like, okay, team team, side dish. Oven,
Speaker 1: throw out some bread crumbs. That's why that texture texture
Speaker 1: it on the hat. Okay, But if you do the
Speaker 1: cheese right, you don't need the bread crumbs for texture,
Speaker 1: like the best mac and cheese has like that cheesy
Speaker 1: crystal top. Like you don't need bread crumbs, like you
Speaker 1: won't won't bread crumbs, you won't miss bread crumbs. I
Speaker 1: gotta try. I gotta try better mac and cheese. I
Speaker 1: think you don't do it right. I told them to
Speaker 1: try Patti Labelle's over the Rainbow mac and cheese recipe.
Speaker 1: That's when I go to go to recipe at Thanksgiving, like,
Speaker 1: only here's the thing. Only make it once a year,
Speaker 1: because otherwise you will die. I'll do it no more
Speaker 1: to that, because you won't be moving. You will be
Speaker 1: so lethargic. No, it's a once a year thing Patty
Speaker 1: Labille over the rainbow mac and cheese like you will
Speaker 1: not want to break crome near it. All right, next time,
Speaker 1: next time you're in l A and all of this
Speaker 1: pandemic is over, we will get together and I will
Speaker 1: work my ass off and make that perfect mac and
Speaker 1: cheese a good deal. That's our show for the week.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening. I'm Dana Schwartz and
Speaker 1: you can find me on Twitter at Dana Schwartz with
Speaker 1: three z's. You can follow Jennifer Wright at jen Ashley
Speaker 1: Wright Karama, Donqua is at Karama Drama, Melissa Hunter is
Speaker 1: at Melissa f t W and Tian Tran is smart
Speaker 1: enough to have gotten off Twitter, but she is on
Speaker 1: Insta at Hank Tina. Our executive producer is Christopher Hessiotes
Speaker 1: were produced and edited by Mike John's Special thanks to
Speaker 1: David Wasserman. Next week, we are going back to Lovecraft Country.
Speaker 1: The television series is out now on HBO, and Popcorn
Speaker 1: Book Club is diving back in to talk about the
Speaker 1: changes they made from the book to the TV show,
Speaker 1: what we think of the TV show as a whole.
Speaker 1: There are c g I monsters of plenty. We have
Speaker 1: plenty to talk about. You can't wait to see you there.
Speaker 1: Popcorn Book Club is a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: See you next Week.