WEBVTT - WW2: How Britain Ignored the Mother of All Secrets

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin. November nineteen thirty nine. It's been two months since

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<v Speaker 1>Nazi Germany invaded Poland and one month since Poland surrendered.

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<v Speaker 1>France and Britain have declared war, but there's not much fighting.

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<v Speaker 1>An uneasy quiet has descended over Western Europe, with neither

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<v Speaker 1>side keen to take major risks. It's obvious that the

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<v Speaker 1>choet won't last, and a German executive named Hans Ferdinand

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<v Speaker 1>Meyer has picked a side. Maya is visiting Oslo on

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<v Speaker 1>a business trip. He doesn't look much, a neat middle

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<v Speaker 1>aged fellow in a suit who works in some sort

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<v Speaker 1>of corporate research lab back in Germany. Nobody bats an

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<v Speaker 1>eyelid when he descends from his room to the lobby

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<v Speaker 1>of Oslo's elegant Hotel Bristol and asks the head porter.

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<v Speaker 2>Would it be possible please to borrow a typewriter.

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<v Speaker 1>Maya takes the typewriter back upstairs to his room. He

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<v Speaker 1>closes and carefully locks the door, pulls on a pair

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<v Speaker 1>of gloves to obscure his fingerprints. What He's about to

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<v Speaker 1>do is dangerous, very dangerous. If the Gestapo ever find

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<v Speaker 1>out he's a dead man, then Maya's gloved fingers begin

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<v Speaker 1>to type perhaps the most spectacular intelligence leak in history.

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<v Speaker 1>In a terse but wide ranging pair of reports, he

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<v Speaker 1>describes Nazi Germany's most sensitive military technologies, their bomber production,

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<v Speaker 1>the aircraft carrier being built in Keel Harbor, the remote

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<v Speaker 1>controlled gliders fitted with large explosive charges. Maya deftly outlines

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<v Speaker 1>the Nazi autopilot system, which is under development and which

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<v Speaker 1>will allow them to take down barrage balloon defenses using

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<v Speaker 1>unmanned planes. He keeps typing, describing the ballistic missiles that

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<v Speaker 1>the German Army are developing and the name of the

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<v Speaker 1>research center. He provides the location just north of Berlin

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<v Speaker 1>of the R and D laboratories of the German Air Force,

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<v Speaker 1>the Luftwaffer, and suggests that.

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<v Speaker 2>It would be a rewarding target.

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<v Speaker 1>How did Mayer learn all this? Some of its gossip,

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<v Speaker 1>some of it's wrong, but much of what he writes

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<v Speaker 1>is specific, technically rigorous and ab solutely accurate. And this

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<v Speaker 1>he knows because he's the director of the Seamen's research

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<v Speaker 1>laboratory in Berlin, and the scientists working for him have

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<v Speaker 1>increasingly been producing cutting edge electronics for military purposes. Shortly

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<v Speaker 1>after Maya borrows the typewriter. He arranges to have his

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<v Speaker 1>two letters delivered to Oslo's British embassy for the embassy staff.

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<v Speaker 1>They're mysterious, sensational baffling. It seems to be some of

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<v Speaker 1>Nazi Germany's most closely guarded secrets, signed only with the

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<v Speaker 1>curious name Martin who sent them? Can they be believed?

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<v Speaker 1>Maya must be convinced that some deep evil lurks at

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<v Speaker 1>the heart of the Nazi regime because he's willing to

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<v Speaker 1>risk his life to warn the British about what the

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<v Speaker 1>Nazi military is capable of. But will the British listen?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Tim Harford and this is cautionary tales. Ostriches do not,

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<v Speaker 1>in fact bury their heads in the sand when trouble

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<v Speaker 1>is approaching, but sometimes people do. That's what this cautionary

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<v Speaker 1>tale is all about. Why do we manage to ignore

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<v Speaker 1>the obvious?

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<v Speaker 3>It should have.

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<v Speaker 1>Been clear that Hans Ferdinand Meyer's letters, which became known

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<v Speaker 1>as the Oslo Report, were worth taking seriously. Yes, this

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<v Speaker 1>mysterious Martil fellow might have been a crank, or the

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<v Speaker 1>letters could have been fakes, a double bluff planted by

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<v Speaker 1>the Nazis. To deceive the British about their real capabilities,

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<v Speaker 1>But the Oslo report included several paragraphs that could hardly

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<v Speaker 1>be a Nazi bluff. They gave a detailed and authoritative

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<v Speaker 1>description of German radio wave technology. At the time, the

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<v Speaker 1>British tended to be rather sniffy about German engineering. Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>the Germans could do things cheaply, but they were hardly

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<v Speaker 1>at the cutting edge. Meyer's report suggested otherwise. He explained

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<v Speaker 1>that the Luftwruffer was developing guidance systems using radio beams

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<v Speaker 1>to help bombers drop their deadly payload at exactly the

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<v Speaker 1>right spot, the equivalent of satellite navigation. Before satellites existed,

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<v Speaker 1>Germany would be able to bomb British targets even at night.

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<v Speaker 1>Meyer also described Germany's defensive radar technology, short wave radio transmitters,

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<v Speaker 1>which bounced signals off incoming aircraft and used the reflections

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<v Speaker 1>as an early warning system. If the British sent bombers

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<v Speaker 1>over Germany, the radar stations would see them coming and

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<v Speaker 1>Germany's fighter groups would have easy pickings. He gave the

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<v Speaker 1>details the wavelengths being used, even the mathematical formulas involved.

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<v Speaker 1>This couldn't be a bluff. At the very least, it

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<v Speaker 1>proved that someone in Germany knew all about radar, which

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<v Speaker 1>the British had assumed was their closely guarded secret. Radar

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<v Speaker 1>technology would be pivotal in the Second World War, as

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<v Speaker 1>vividly described in Tom Whipple's book The Battle of the Beams,

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<v Speaker 1>and Hans Ferdinand Meyer's brave decision to expose the secrets

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<v Speaker 1>of German radar could be pivotal too, if the British

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<v Speaker 1>took it seriously. If in the early nineteen thirties a

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<v Speaker 1>senior British politician stood up in Parliament to explain the

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<v Speaker 1>likely course of a future war.

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<v Speaker 4>It is well also for the man in the street

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<v Speaker 4>to realize that there is no power on earth that

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<v Speaker 4>can protect him from being bombed. Whatever people may tell him,

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<v Speaker 4>the bomber will always get through.

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<v Speaker 1>That seemed all too true at the time. There was

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<v Speaker 1>no defense against the new bombers that were being developed.

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<v Speaker 1>They flew too high to be easily intercepted, and would

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<v Speaker 1>attack without warning. In nineteen thirty seven, the Luftwaffir seemed

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<v Speaker 1>to prove the point by laying waste to the Spanish

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<v Speaker 1>market town of Gernica with one of the first major

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<v Speaker 1>bombings of a civilian population. But when Gernica was attacked,

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<v Speaker 1>the British had already been working on a secret defense

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<v Speaker 1>for a couple of years, and by nineteen thirty nine

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<v Speaker 1>that defense was fully prepared. An invisible network of radar

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<v Speaker 1>stations blanketed the country in places with reliable electricity supplies,

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<v Speaker 1>good visibility out over the sea, and that would not

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<v Speaker 1>gravely interfere with grouse shooting. This was Britain, after all.

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<v Speaker 1>If the grouse shooting was disrupted, then the Nazis had

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<v Speaker 1>already won. These radar stations would send out pulses of

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<v Speaker 1>invisible light radio waves and detect the reflection of those

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<v Speaker 1>pulses from incoming objects. The Royal Air Force would get

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<v Speaker 1>advanced notice of approaching bombers and could send fighters up

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<v Speaker 1>to intercept them. Guided by radar, the outnumbered fighters of

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<v Speaker 1>the Royal Air Force could be mustered and focused where

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<v Speaker 1>they were most needed. The heroic few could stand up

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<v Speaker 1>to the mighty looftbuffer. So when Hans Ferdinand Meyer was

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<v Speaker 1>typing his secret Oslo report early in November nineteen thirty nine,

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<v Speaker 1>radar was old news to the British What was new

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<v Speaker 1>and should have been a dramatic revelation, was the fact

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<v Speaker 1>that the Germans had radar too. Meyer's brave act of

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<v Speaker 1>espionage could save many British lives if they paid attention

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<v Speaker 1>to the Oslo report. If not, they'd have to find

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<v Speaker 1>out about German radar the hard way. On December the eighteenth,

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen thirty nine, a few weeks after Meyer had typed

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<v Speaker 1>his report, it was a cold, bright day over the

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<v Speaker 1>northwest coast of Germany and the naval base of Wilhelmshaven.

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<v Speaker 1>To the Royal Air Force, it was a lovely day

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<v Speaker 1>for the precision bombing of the German fleet. Not a

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<v Speaker 1>bomb would be wasted, not a civilian would be harmed.

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<v Speaker 1>The conditions were ideal that all assumed the bombers would

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<v Speaker 1>attack without warning if the defenders knew they were coming. However,

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<v Speaker 1>the clear conditions would be a double edged sword.

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<v Speaker 5>Splendid weather for fighters.

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<v Speaker 1>A Pine's a luftwaffer fighter commander. He's not really expecting

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<v Speaker 1>a British attack, merely hoping for one. His assistant shakes

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<v Speaker 1>his head regretfully.

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<v Speaker 2>The Tommies are not such fools. They won't come today.

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<v Speaker 1>On the tiny German island of hellegeraland less than half

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<v Speaker 1>a square mile in size, electronic eyes have been installed.

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<v Speaker 1>German radar there and elsewhere will give plenty of warning

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<v Speaker 1>of any incoming bombers. But the British, despite Maya's warning,

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<v Speaker 1>are convinced that only they and not the Germans, have

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<v Speaker 1>cracked the secrets of radar. The pilots of the twenty

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<v Speaker 1>two bombers heading towards Wilhelmshaven have every reason to believe

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<v Speaker 1>they will catch the defenders completely unawares. When the radar

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<v Speaker 1>operators on Hellegaland notify their superiors of the incoming bombers,

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<v Speaker 1>they're met with disbelief.

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<v Speaker 2>You are plotting seagulls.

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<v Speaker 1>With the winter sun low in the southern sky, the

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<v Speaker 1>defensive LUFTWAFFEFI would have plenty of cover for their counter attack.

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<v Speaker 1>Could the British really be so foolish as to try

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<v Speaker 1>something they would? The images on the radar scope aren't seagulls,

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<v Speaker 1>their twenty two sitting ducks. Were the German fighters given

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<v Speaker 1>so much warning by the radar system, the incoming British

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<v Speaker 1>bombers don't stand a chance. More than half of them

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<v Speaker 1>are shot down as the rest flee to safety. Having

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<v Speaker 1>barely made attempt in Germany's fleet, the utter route of

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<v Speaker 1>the bomber force did prompt to rethink in future the

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<v Speaker 1>Royal Air Force would attack at night. Of course, radar

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<v Speaker 1>also works perfectly well at night, but the idea that

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<v Speaker 1>the Germans had radar had yet to penetrate the skulls

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<v Speaker 1>of the British elite. Cautionary tales will be back after

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<v Speaker 1>the break, and just a warning there will be a

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<v Speaker 1>brief mention of suicide. Two years earlier, in nineteen thirty seven,

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<v Speaker 1>relations between the German Luffaffer and the British Royal Air

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<v Speaker 1>Force had been cautious, at cordial. Officers from each side

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<v Speaker 1>would visit the other, chatting diplomatically about the friendship between

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<v Speaker 1>the two great nations. One visiting German officer took a

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<v Speaker 1>surprisingly frank line of questioning.

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<v Speaker 3>How are you getting on with your experiments in the

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<v Speaker 3>detection by radio of aircraft approaching your shores?

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<v Speaker 1>He asked his astonished hosts.

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<v Speaker 3>He added, cheerfully, we have known for some time that

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<v Speaker 3>you were developing a system of radio detections, and so

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<v Speaker 3>are we, and we think we are ahead of you.

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<v Speaker 1>The British didn't need Meyer to warn them about German radar.

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<v Speaker 1>A Loftbraffer officer had done the same two years before

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<v Speaker 1>war broke out. Somehow the lesson didn't stick. So why

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<v Speaker 1>do we sometimes deny the obvious? One answer is that

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<v Speaker 1>maybe what seems obvious with hindsight wasn't obvious at the time.

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<v Speaker 1>The Oslo report, coupled with the indiscreet visiting officer, should

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<v Speaker 1>have been evidence enough. But that's easy to say. With hindsight.

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<v Speaker 1>There would have been dozens of informants, hundreds of reports,

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<v Speaker 1>countless rumors. Different people in the British military will have

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<v Speaker 1>heard different things, and not every piece of information would

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<v Speaker 1>have reached the right person. Some reports will have been

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<v Speaker 1>dismissed as junk, Some will have been too sensitive to

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<v Speaker 1>share widely. A conversation with a visiting German and an

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<v Speaker 1>officer's mess in nineteen thirty seven might have been reported somewhere,

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<v Speaker 1>filed and forgotten, or not reported at all. We have

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<v Speaker 1>amidst all the noise, it can be difficult to pick

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<v Speaker 1>out the signal we are. In their book Predictable Surprises,

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<v Speaker 1>Max Beseman and Michael Watkins call this an integration failure.

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<v Speaker 1>An organization may have all the information it needs, but

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<v Speaker 1>sifting out what really matters and assembling those disparate clues

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<v Speaker 1>into the true picture can be a near impossible task.

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<v Speaker 1>The British weren't the only ones to suffer integration failures.

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<v Speaker 1>The Germans, for example, regarded their radar system as the

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<v Speaker 1>mother of all secrets, yet they also published publicity folksographs

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<v Speaker 1>showing radar aerials clearly visible. This was because the radar

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<v Speaker 1>system was so secret that the German censors weren't told

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<v Speaker 1>that it was a secret, Nor were the Americans immune.

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<v Speaker 1>In fact, the most famous intelligence failure of the war

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<v Speaker 1>was arguably an integration failure. The Japanese attack on Pearl

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<v Speaker 1>Harbor came as a complete surprise to the US forces.

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<v Speaker 1>There shouldn't the Americans have seen the Japanese coming. The

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<v Speaker 1>clues were there. Several American and British strategists had warned

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<v Speaker 1>that Pearl Harbour would be a tempting target for a

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<v Speaker 1>Japanese attack. US Japanese relations were extremely tense, and war

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<v Speaker 1>seemed a distinct threat. An American codebreaker, Genevieve Grojan, had

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<v Speaker 1>cracked a Japanese diplomatic code six weeks before the attack,

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<v Speaker 1>she exposed a message between the Tokyo government and the

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<v Speaker 1>Japanese embassy in Washington, noting there is more reason than

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<v Speaker 1>ever before for us to arm ourselves to the teeth

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<v Speaker 1>for all out war. Just a week before the attack,

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<v Speaker 1>another message was deciphered. The Japanese ambassador in Berlin was

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<v Speaker 1>instructed by Tokyo to warn Adolf Hitler that war may

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<v Speaker 1>suddenly break out between the Anglo Saxon nations and Japan.

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<v Speaker 1>This war may come quicker than anyone dreams. With hindsight,

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<v Speaker 1>this all seems very obvious, so obvious, in fact, that

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<v Speaker 1>some people believe in a conspiracy theory that the US

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<v Speaker 1>or the UK deliberately ignored the warnings in the hope

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<v Speaker 1>that Japan would attack and American voters would support the

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<v Speaker 1>US entering the war. The truth is more prosaic. There

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<v Speaker 1>were lots of hints of trouble, but lots of noise

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<v Speaker 1>and false alarms too. Different decision makers had different clues,

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<v Speaker 1>and these clues didn't reach the right people at the

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<v Speaker 1>right time. In her influential book about Pearl Harbor, the

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<v Speaker 1>historian ROBERTA. Wohlstetter wrote, it is only to be expected

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<v Speaker 1>that the relevant signals so clearly audible after an event,

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<v Speaker 1>will be partially obscured before the event by surrounding noise.

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<v Speaker 1>Perhaps the British failed to understand that the Germans had

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<v Speaker 1>radar because they were simply suffering an integration failure. If so,

0:18:49.210 --> 0:18:53.370
<v Speaker 1>they were about to get another very clear signal amidst

0:18:53.370 --> 0:18:58.650
<v Speaker 1>the noise. In December nineteen thirty nine, the same month

0:18:58.690 --> 0:19:03.330
<v Speaker 1>as the disastrous raid on Wilhelmshaven and six weeks after

0:19:03.570 --> 0:19:08.930
<v Speaker 1>Hans Ferdinand Meyer's letters, another German named Hans would present

0:19:09.170 --> 0:19:13.010
<v Speaker 1>the British with another opportunity to learn what they faced.

0:19:13.690 --> 0:19:18.330
<v Speaker 1>This fellow is Hans Langsdorf, captain of the Graf Spey,

0:19:19.010 --> 0:19:24.170
<v Speaker 1>a mighty German battleship. The graf Spey had been prowling

0:19:24.210 --> 0:19:29.210
<v Speaker 1>around the South Atlantic, sinking merchant ships after first allowing

0:19:29.210 --> 0:19:34.410
<v Speaker 1>their civilian cruise to disembark. Captain Langsdorf regarded naval warfare

0:19:34.610 --> 0:19:38.810
<v Speaker 1>as a matter of honor. After all, Still, he was

0:19:38.850 --> 0:19:42.330
<v Speaker 1>avoiding a real fight, since German naval doctrine at the

0:19:42.370 --> 0:19:47.210
<v Speaker 1>time was to attack only civilian ships, causing maximum trouble

0:19:47.650 --> 0:19:52.370
<v Speaker 1>for minimum risk. Captain Langsdorf and the Graf Spey were

0:19:52.410 --> 0:19:55.650
<v Speaker 1>causing a lot of damage to the Allied war effort,

0:19:55.890 --> 0:19:59.170
<v Speaker 1>and the Royal Navy resolved to hunt them down near

0:19:59.250 --> 0:20:04.370
<v Speaker 1>the huge River Plate estuary where Argentina, Uruguay and the

0:20:04.410 --> 0:20:10.290
<v Speaker 1>Atlantic Ocean meet. Just after dawn on the thirteenth of December,

0:20:10.810 --> 0:20:15.610
<v Speaker 1>three British cruisers spotted the Graf Spay's smoking funnel on

0:20:15.650 --> 0:20:20.210
<v Speaker 1>the horizon and gave chase. That was a brave move,

0:20:20.890 --> 0:20:24.250
<v Speaker 1>even with three against one. The Graf Spey was a larger,

0:20:24.570 --> 0:20:29.770
<v Speaker 1>better armed and armored ship, a formidable opponent. Graf Spey

0:20:30.050 --> 0:20:33.730
<v Speaker 1>concentrated its fire on one ship, the Exeter, and within

0:20:33.810 --> 0:20:38.410
<v Speaker 1>minutes Exeter had lost the torpedo crews, communication systems, an

0:20:38.570 --> 0:20:41.050
<v Speaker 1>entire gun turret, with most of the men on the bridge.

0:20:41.770 --> 0:20:46.170
<v Speaker 1>Exeter's captain was lucky to survive, wounded in both legs

0:20:46.610 --> 0:20:51.610
<v Speaker 1>and both eyes. The British pulled back to assess the situation.

0:20:52.810 --> 0:20:55.930
<v Speaker 1>Graf Spey had been hit more than twenty times that

0:20:56.010 --> 0:21:00.730
<v Speaker 1>the damage seemed superficial. The British didn't know that they'd

0:21:00.770 --> 0:21:05.610
<v Speaker 1>been lucky. One of Exeter's shells had shattered Graf Spey's

0:21:05.770 --> 0:21:09.850
<v Speaker 1>fuel filtering plant. The German battleship would run out of

0:21:09.930 --> 0:21:17.730
<v Speaker 1>fuel within hours. Graft Spey dashed towards Montevideo, the nearest port,

0:21:18.210 --> 0:21:23.330
<v Speaker 1>which was in neutral Uruguay. Once there, Captain Langsdorf frantically

0:21:23.450 --> 0:21:27.250
<v Speaker 1>tried to repair his battleship while the British scrambled to

0:21:27.290 --> 0:21:32.290
<v Speaker 1>assemble reinforcements. Langsdorf was alarmed when he was informed that

0:21:32.370 --> 0:21:37.290
<v Speaker 1>a British communication had just been intercepted. The British ambassador

0:21:37.330 --> 0:21:41.490
<v Speaker 1>to Uruguay had ordered fuel in order to supply the

0:21:41.610 --> 0:21:47.250
<v Speaker 1>new British battleships that were arriving. Langsdorf's crew were starting

0:21:47.290 --> 0:21:52.530
<v Speaker 1>to panic. One officer was convinced that, gazing out from Montevideo,

0:21:53.050 --> 0:21:56.570
<v Speaker 1>he had seen lurking on the horizon not only a

0:21:56.610 --> 0:22:02.410
<v Speaker 1>British battleship, but an aircraft carrier and three destroyers. What

0:22:02.770 --> 0:22:06.130
<v Speaker 1>none of them knew was that the ambassador's fuel order

0:22:06.770 --> 0:22:11.890
<v Speaker 1>was a bluff. Knowing his communications would be intercepted, he

0:22:11.930 --> 0:22:17.730
<v Speaker 1>had paid for fuel for ships that didn't exist. Langsdorf

0:22:18.170 --> 0:22:24.410
<v Speaker 1>felfret and bowed to what seemed inevitable. He limped the

0:22:24.450 --> 0:22:29.370
<v Speaker 1>graft spay out to the river Plate estuary planted explosives

0:22:29.370 --> 0:22:32.530
<v Speaker 1>on her hull. And sent her to the bottom of

0:22:32.530 --> 0:22:38.930
<v Speaker 1>the sea. Sadly, for Captain Langsdorf, the bottom of the

0:22:38.970 --> 0:22:43.650
<v Speaker 1>sea was only twelve yards down. Most of the ship

0:22:43.810 --> 0:22:47.850
<v Speaker 1>remained above the surface, and photographs of the burning wreck

0:22:48.170 --> 0:22:51.970
<v Speaker 1>went around the world, gleefully exploited by the British for

0:22:52.050 --> 0:22:58.490
<v Speaker 1>propaganda purposes. For Captain Langsdorf, an honorable man, it was

0:22:58.530 --> 0:23:04.130
<v Speaker 1>a final humiliation. From a hotel room in nearby Buenos Aidre's,

0:23:04.850 --> 0:23:08.250
<v Speaker 1>he wrote a letter to his wife and another to

0:23:08.330 --> 0:23:13.450
<v Speaker 1>his parents. The third letter was addressed to the German government.

0:23:14.490 --> 0:23:17.610
<v Speaker 2>For a captain with a sense of honor, it goes

0:23:17.610 --> 0:23:21.290
<v Speaker 2>without saying that his personal fate cannot be separated from

0:23:21.290 --> 0:23:22.170
<v Speaker 2>that of his ship.

0:23:22.730 --> 0:23:27.010
<v Speaker 1>He explained, having written the three letters, he spread the

0:23:27.050 --> 0:23:30.930
<v Speaker 1>Graf Spey's ensign flag out on the floor, lay on

0:23:30.970 --> 0:23:40.450
<v Speaker 1>top of it, and shot himself out across the river

0:23:40.570 --> 0:23:45.530
<v Speaker 1>plate estuary. The smoke from the Graf Spey began to clear.

0:23:46.650 --> 0:23:50.890
<v Speaker 1>As it did, a sharp eyed observer in British intelligence

0:23:51.050 --> 0:23:56.330
<v Speaker 1>noticed something curious in the latest photographs. What was that

0:23:56.650 --> 0:24:02.530
<v Speaker 1>mysterious network of criss crossing wires on Graf Spay's forward tower.

0:24:03.970 --> 0:24:08.130
<v Speaker 1>It was now January nineteen forty let me introduce you

0:24:08.250 --> 0:24:13.930
<v Speaker 1>to a British radar scientist named Labouchere Hilliard Bainbridge Bell.

0:24:14.610 --> 0:24:16.690
<v Speaker 1>I hope you'll forgive me if I just call him

0:24:16.810 --> 0:24:20.770
<v Speaker 1>Bainbridge Bell. He thought the array on the graf Spey

0:24:21.130 --> 0:24:25.770
<v Speaker 1>looked suspiciously like a radar system. He flew to Uruguay

0:24:26.090 --> 0:24:30.730
<v Speaker 1>to find out more. When Bainbridge Bell arrived in Montevideo,

0:24:31.650 --> 0:24:35.530
<v Speaker 1>his James Bond style cover story was that he was

0:24:35.570 --> 0:24:40.690
<v Speaker 1>a scrap metal dealer. British intelligence had already purchased the

0:24:40.810 --> 0:24:45.370
<v Speaker 1>salvage rights, and Bainbridge Bell rode out to graft Spey

0:24:45.690 --> 0:24:49.890
<v Speaker 1>to examine his property. Although the ship had already been

0:24:49.970 --> 0:24:53.970
<v Speaker 1>picked over by scavengers and gutted by fire, he was

0:24:54.010 --> 0:24:58.410
<v Speaker 1>relieved to discover that the radar tower still contained many

0:24:58.490 --> 0:25:04.890
<v Speaker 1>clues for radar tower it undoubtedly was. As he stood

0:25:04.890 --> 0:25:08.850
<v Speaker 1>on the sloping deck amidst the wreckage, Bainbridge Bell g

0:25:09.090 --> 0:25:13.290
<v Speaker 1>around at the fragments of a cathode ray display and

0:25:13.410 --> 0:25:17.010
<v Speaker 1>sifted through the gears and the electronics that lay scattered around.

0:25:18.050 --> 0:25:21.730
<v Speaker 1>His report back to the British government was unambiguous.

0:25:22.650 --> 0:25:26.130
<v Speaker 5>The writer's personal opinion is that the installation was a

0:25:26.210 --> 0:25:31.810
<v Speaker 5>sixty centimeter RDF radar. It seems strange that no one

0:25:31.930 --> 0:25:36.170
<v Speaker 5>was curious before January nineteen forty about the aerial on

0:25:36.290 --> 0:25:37.210
<v Speaker 5>the control tar.

0:25:38.570 --> 0:25:43.650
<v Speaker 1>Strange indeed, but as Tom Whipple explains in the Battle

0:25:43.690 --> 0:25:48.690
<v Speaker 1>of the Beams, the lack of curiosity would continue. The

0:25:48.770 --> 0:25:54.890
<v Speaker 1>report was filed and then forgotten. Not only had Hans

0:25:54.970 --> 0:25:59.010
<v Speaker 1>Ferdinand Meyer warned the British that the Germans had radar,

0:25:59.770 --> 0:26:03.330
<v Speaker 1>but Bainbridge Bell had seen the radar with his own eyes.

0:26:04.170 --> 0:26:08.010
<v Speaker 1>The official position of the Royal Air Force, however, did

0:26:08.090 --> 0:26:14.530
<v Speaker 1>not change Britain, and Britain alone commanded the miracle technology

0:26:14.810 --> 0:26:20.250
<v Speaker 1>of radar. Cautionary tales will be back after the break.

0:26:31.290 --> 0:26:35.650
<v Speaker 1>By February nineteen forty. It should have been brutally obvious

0:26:35.690 --> 0:26:39.610
<v Speaker 1>that the Germans had radar, but the British refused to

0:26:39.650 --> 0:26:45.210
<v Speaker 1>believe it. The delay was costly. Just ask the surviving

0:26:45.530 --> 0:26:51.170
<v Speaker 1>crew of HMS Delight. This British destroyer ventured out of

0:26:51.170 --> 0:26:53.410
<v Speaker 1>a harbor on the south coast of England in the

0:26:53.450 --> 0:26:57.490
<v Speaker 1>summer of nineteen forty, and within a few miles was

0:26:57.570 --> 0:27:04.330
<v Speaker 1>sunk by German dive pommers. Six sailors died. How unlucky

0:27:05.090 --> 0:27:10.650
<v Speaker 1>thought the British, but it wasn't bad luck good German radar.

0:27:12.130 --> 0:27:14.570
<v Speaker 1>The same story could be told by the crews of

0:27:14.610 --> 0:27:18.770
<v Speaker 1>British bombers in nineteen forty. The British weren't in a

0:27:18.810 --> 0:27:22.210
<v Speaker 1>position to bomb the Germans very often, but when they did,

0:27:22.650 --> 0:27:29.250
<v Speaker 1>the losses were unexpectedly grievous, how unlucky. If the British

0:27:29.250 --> 0:27:31.890
<v Speaker 1>had woken up to the obvious, the true source of

0:27:31.930 --> 0:27:34.690
<v Speaker 1>these losses would have been recognized, and some of them

0:27:34.770 --> 0:27:38.170
<v Speaker 1>could have been prevented. If you understand that an enemy

0:27:38.210 --> 0:27:42.770
<v Speaker 1>has radar, you can start to take precautions, flying decoy

0:27:42.810 --> 0:27:48.530
<v Speaker 1>missions or flying informations that overwhelm the radar operators, or

0:27:48.570 --> 0:27:52.530
<v Speaker 1>trying to jam the radar electronically or fill the sky

0:27:52.690 --> 0:27:57.650
<v Speaker 1>with false signals. Later in the war, both sides became

0:27:57.810 --> 0:28:02.090
<v Speaker 1>masters of such tricks, but at the start, the Nazis

0:28:02.210 --> 0:28:06.130
<v Speaker 1>were racing to develop countermeasures to British radar, and the

0:28:06.130 --> 0:28:08.810
<v Speaker 1>British didn't even know there was a race at all.

0:28:11.770 --> 0:28:14.770
<v Speaker 1>So why did it take the British so long? Was

0:28:14.810 --> 0:28:18.410
<v Speaker 1>it just an integration failure? Were different parts of the

0:28:18.410 --> 0:28:22.730
<v Speaker 1>British military receiving different signals and were they unable to

0:28:22.770 --> 0:28:25.850
<v Speaker 1>put them all together and spot the pattern amidst the noise.

0:28:26.890 --> 0:28:30.130
<v Speaker 1>I discussed this question with Tom Whipple, the author of

0:28:30.330 --> 0:28:33.330
<v Speaker 1>the Battle of the Beams. He pointed out that there

0:28:33.450 --> 0:28:37.850
<v Speaker 1>was one British intelligence analyst who didn't have any trouble

0:28:37.890 --> 0:28:44.010
<v Speaker 1>at all piecing together the pattern. His name was R. V. Jones.

0:28:44.850 --> 0:28:47.330
<v Speaker 1>If you've heard our series on the V two rocket,

0:28:47.850 --> 0:28:50.930
<v Speaker 1>R V. Jones was the man who rightly warned Winston

0:28:51.050 --> 0:28:55.250
<v Speaker 1>Churchill that Germany was developing the V two ballistic missile

0:28:55.810 --> 0:28:59.410
<v Speaker 1>at pain and Munder. Jones was just as sharp on

0:28:59.490 --> 0:29:03.810
<v Speaker 1>the question of German radar. He didn't miss much. In

0:29:03.850 --> 0:29:07.450
<v Speaker 1>May nineteen forty he informed his colleagues that it was

0:29:07.810 --> 0:29:13.210
<v Speaker 1>almost certain that Germany had radar. In July nineteen forty

0:29:13.450 --> 0:29:18.050
<v Speaker 1>he wrote another short report summarizing the evidence. A prisoner

0:29:18.130 --> 0:29:21.370
<v Speaker 1>of war had admitted that the German Navy had range

0:29:21.410 --> 0:29:25.250
<v Speaker 1>finding radar. German planes had been spotted with what seemed

0:29:25.290 --> 0:29:29.850
<v Speaker 1>to be radar systems. Eavesdropping on German radio revealed that

0:29:29.970 --> 0:29:33.690
<v Speaker 1>pilots were celebrating the use of a code name system

0:29:33.730 --> 0:29:38.010
<v Speaker 1>to successfully intercept British planes. And of course, there was

0:29:38.050 --> 0:29:41.970
<v Speaker 1>the Oslo Report and the discovery of a fragmentary radar

0:29:42.050 --> 0:29:46.890
<v Speaker 1>system on the graft spay. R V Jones declared it.

0:29:46.930 --> 0:29:51.490
<v Speaker 2>Is safe to conclude that the Germans have an RDF system.

0:29:52.250 --> 0:29:57.690
<v Speaker 1>They had radar. Jones pulled together much of the relevant evidence,

0:29:58.330 --> 0:30:03.210
<v Speaker 1>drew the obvious conclusion in plain language, and circulated his

0:30:03.290 --> 0:30:08.290
<v Speaker 1>analysis to Winston Churchill's chief scientific adviser and several other

0:30:08.530 --> 0:30:13.610
<v Speaker 1>senior p This wasn't a Pearl Harbor situation. It wasn't

0:30:13.650 --> 0:30:17.490
<v Speaker 1>an integration failure. The men who needed to know the

0:30:17.570 --> 0:30:27.770
<v Speaker 1>truth were told it, and they refused to believe. Early

0:30:27.770 --> 0:30:33.210
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen forty one, a mysterious figure was seen standing

0:30:33.290 --> 0:30:37.570
<v Speaker 1>on the south coast of England pointing a mysterious array

0:30:37.690 --> 0:30:43.330
<v Speaker 1>of aerials out over the sea towards occupied France. The

0:30:43.410 --> 0:30:47.290
<v Speaker 1>locals were alarmed, and this dastardly fellow was soon in

0:30:47.330 --> 0:30:50.890
<v Speaker 1>the custody of the police as a suspected German spy.

0:30:52.010 --> 0:30:57.330
<v Speaker 1>He was, in fact a frustrated British scientist named Derrick Garrard.

0:30:58.450 --> 0:31:02.210
<v Speaker 1>Garrard was waiting to receive permission to join the intelligence

0:31:02.290 --> 0:31:06.890
<v Speaker 1>team of the formidable r V Jones, but his security

0:31:06.930 --> 0:31:11.090
<v Speaker 1>clearance had been slow to arrive, and Deck Garrard was

0:31:11.130 --> 0:31:13.530
<v Speaker 1>in a hurry. There was a war on after all.

0:31:14.290 --> 0:31:17.050
<v Speaker 1>He convinced the police to release him and headed straight

0:31:17.170 --> 0:31:20.170
<v Speaker 1>back to the coast to set up his equipment. Again.

0:31:20.730 --> 0:31:24.690
<v Speaker 1>He was listening for the distinctive pulses of a German

0:31:24.770 --> 0:31:29.930
<v Speaker 1>radar system r V. Jones, meanwhile, had been shown a

0:31:29.970 --> 0:31:34.170
<v Speaker 1>pair of aerial photographs with a strange anomaly in them,

0:31:34.250 --> 0:31:41.010
<v Speaker 1>a blur that suggested a rotating object. Jones already suspected

0:31:41.050 --> 0:31:43.930
<v Speaker 1>that the sight in question on the French coast might

0:31:44.090 --> 0:31:48.650
<v Speaker 1>contain a radar station. He requested that a spitfire fighter

0:31:48.690 --> 0:31:52.210
<v Speaker 1>pilot make the dangerous journey over the sea to get

0:31:52.210 --> 0:31:57.810
<v Speaker 1>a close up photograph strange object. The pilot returned and

0:31:57.850 --> 0:32:01.210
<v Speaker 1>complained that all he had found was an anti aircraft gun,

0:32:01.290 --> 0:32:03.810
<v Speaker 1>a gun which could have killed him. But when the

0:32:03.810 --> 0:32:07.810
<v Speaker 1>photographs were examined, they showed not only the gun, but

0:32:08.090 --> 0:32:10.810
<v Speaker 1>off in the background at the edge of the image

0:32:11.610 --> 0:32:17.090
<v Speaker 1>a radar area. Jones had seen the enemy, and Derek

0:32:17.210 --> 0:32:20.890
<v Speaker 1>Garrard had heard it, the very same radar station that

0:32:20.970 --> 0:32:25.850
<v Speaker 1>the spitfire pilot had photographed. As Jones was studying that photograph,

0:32:26.130 --> 0:32:29.690
<v Speaker 1>Garrard burst in breathless with news that his aeriels on

0:32:29.730 --> 0:32:33.370
<v Speaker 1>the south coast had clearly picked up the radar signal.

0:32:34.450 --> 0:32:38.730
<v Speaker 1>This might come in Handy Jones was due at a

0:32:38.770 --> 0:32:42.410
<v Speaker 1>meeting later that day called by the Royal Air Forces

0:32:42.570 --> 0:32:46.290
<v Speaker 1>Head of Radar and Signals. The agenda for the meeting.

0:32:47.010 --> 0:32:51.050
<v Speaker 1>Did the Germans have radar? At the beginning of the discussion,

0:32:51.610 --> 0:32:56.210
<v Speaker 1>that was still an open question. When r V. Jones

0:32:56.490 --> 0:33:00.170
<v Speaker 1>strolled in with Garrard's report of listening to the radar

0:33:00.290 --> 0:33:03.850
<v Speaker 1>in one hand and the spitfire pilot's photograph of it

0:33:03.970 --> 0:33:08.810
<v Speaker 1>in the other, the question had finally been answered. It

0:33:08.890 --> 0:33:15.290
<v Speaker 1>was February nineteen forty one, fifteen months after Hans Ferdinand

0:33:15.410 --> 0:33:19.930
<v Speaker 1>Meyer had borrowed a typewriter and risked his life to

0:33:20.050 --> 0:33:24.210
<v Speaker 1>warn the British that the Germans had radar.

0:33:29.810 --> 0:33:30.010
<v Speaker 5>R V.

0:33:30.210 --> 0:33:34.290
<v Speaker 1>Jones didn't suffer fools gladly, but he was diplomatic enough

0:33:34.850 --> 0:33:38.850
<v Speaker 1>not to name the fools. Shortly after the war, he

0:33:39.010 --> 0:33:41.530
<v Speaker 1>dryly wrote.

0:33:40.730 --> 0:33:44.210
<v Speaker 2>The evidence and rough performance of German radar had already

0:33:44.250 --> 0:33:49.130
<v Speaker 2>been deduced in summer nineteen forty Despite this evidence, there

0:33:49.210 --> 0:33:53.610
<v Speaker 2>still remained some expert prejudice against believing that the Germans

0:33:53.610 --> 0:33:54.210
<v Speaker 2>had radar.

0:33:55.890 --> 0:33:59.130
<v Speaker 1>Prejudice is the right word. Too. Many of the people

0:33:59.170 --> 0:34:02.410
<v Speaker 1>who mattered had already made up their minds that the

0:34:02.450 --> 0:34:07.890
<v Speaker 1>Germans couldn't have radar. The original sins here were pride

0:34:08.170 --> 0:34:13.450
<v Speaker 1>and wishful things. Pride in British ingenuity meant that British

0:34:13.490 --> 0:34:18.250
<v Speaker 1>scientists and officers were reluctant to admit that German technology

0:34:18.370 --> 0:34:21.330
<v Speaker 1>might be just as good as theirs, and wish for

0:34:21.450 --> 0:34:25.890
<v Speaker 1>thinking the hope that the fearsome German war machine had

0:34:25.890 --> 0:34:30.010
<v Speaker 1>a weak spot their lack of radar. And because the

0:34:30.050 --> 0:34:34.170
<v Speaker 1>British were so determined to disbelieve in German radar, they

0:34:34.210 --> 0:34:38.450
<v Speaker 1>found fault with every piece of contrary evidence that crossed

0:34:38.450 --> 0:34:43.090
<v Speaker 1>their desks. Those bulges on German planes weren't radar, they

0:34:43.090 --> 0:34:47.130
<v Speaker 1>were just bulges. The Oslo report was clearly unreliable, and

0:34:47.250 --> 0:34:54.090
<v Speaker 1>Nazi bluff evidence from interrogated prisoners couldn't be trusted. Psychologists

0:34:54.170 --> 0:35:00.010
<v Speaker 1>call this biased assimilation of information. Claims that support your

0:35:00.090 --> 0:35:05.570
<v Speaker 1>views are seized upon without question. Contrary evidence is dismissed

0:35:05.890 --> 0:35:14.010
<v Speaker 1>or explained away. This is a sadly familiar story to

0:35:14.210 --> 0:35:19.810
<v Speaker 1>connoisseurs of cautionary tales. We all have fond beliefs and

0:35:19.810 --> 0:35:24.450
<v Speaker 1>we're at risk of mental contortions to protect those fond beliefs.

0:35:25.130 --> 0:35:28.050
<v Speaker 1>Even as the British started to wander if the Germans

0:35:28.130 --> 0:35:31.530
<v Speaker 1>really did have radar, their pride wouldn't let them admit

0:35:31.810 --> 0:35:35.290
<v Speaker 1>that the Germans might have figured it out all by themselves.

0:35:36.610 --> 0:35:41.370
<v Speaker 1>Winston Churchill asked the Air Ministry to check that no

0:35:41.530 --> 0:35:45.170
<v Speaker 1>British radar had been captured during the fall of France.

0:35:45.490 --> 0:35:48.730
<v Speaker 3>I understand there were two or three British radar sets.

0:35:49.130 --> 0:35:53.530
<v Speaker 3>Can I be assured they were effectively destroyed before evacuation?

0:35:54.810 --> 0:35:58.530
<v Speaker 1>He was right to ask. The Germans had indeed managed

0:35:58.570 --> 0:36:02.010
<v Speaker 1>to seize a British radar while sweeping across Belgium and

0:36:02.050 --> 0:36:06.090
<v Speaker 1>France in May and June of nineteen forty. German radar

0:36:06.210 --> 0:36:10.530
<v Speaker 1>engineers had taken it apart and examined it closely before

0:36:10.530 --> 0:36:15.610
<v Speaker 1>concluding that the British technology was so crude that they

0:36:15.610 --> 0:36:24.010
<v Speaker 1>had nothing to learn. After the war, R. V. Jones

0:36:24.130 --> 0:36:27.890
<v Speaker 1>tried again and again to figure out who had written

0:36:28.050 --> 0:36:33.090
<v Speaker 1>the Oslo Report. In the end, he gave up, assuming

0:36:33.170 --> 0:36:35.850
<v Speaker 1>that the anonymous author had been killed in the war,

0:36:36.650 --> 0:36:43.210
<v Speaker 1>or perhaps executed as a traitor. Hans Ferdinand Meyer had

0:36:43.250 --> 0:36:47.250
<v Speaker 1>been arrested by the Gestapo in nineteen forty three, but

0:36:47.530 --> 0:36:52.410
<v Speaker 1>not because of the Oslo Report. His crime was listening

0:36:52.450 --> 0:36:57.210
<v Speaker 1>to broadcasts from the BBC. A neighbour's maid overheard him

0:36:57.250 --> 0:37:00.730
<v Speaker 1>repeating something critical of the Nazi regime from one of

0:37:00.730 --> 0:37:06.530
<v Speaker 1>those broadcasts, and that was Maya's undoing. Maya was sent

0:37:06.690 --> 0:37:10.650
<v Speaker 1>to Dakau, a concentration camp, where he was put to

0:37:10.690 --> 0:37:16.810
<v Speaker 1>work trying to develop counter intelligence in a radio research laboratory.

0:37:17.570 --> 0:37:21.290
<v Speaker 1>He kept his head down as the regime began to

0:37:21.410 --> 0:37:24.570
<v Speaker 1>fall apart. At the end of the war, Hans Ferdinand

0:37:24.610 --> 0:37:28.810
<v Speaker 1>Meyer simply walked out of a prison camp and into

0:37:28.850 --> 0:37:33.770
<v Speaker 1>the safety of a nearby wood. Maya knew that some

0:37:34.050 --> 0:37:37.050
<v Speaker 1>people would view him as a hero and others as

0:37:37.090 --> 0:37:41.370
<v Speaker 1>a traitor, so he preferred to keep his authorship of

0:37:41.410 --> 0:37:46.410
<v Speaker 1>the Oslo Report a closely guarded secret. But through an

0:37:46.450 --> 0:37:51.250
<v Speaker 1>extraordinary set of coincidences, R. V. Jones finally learned his

0:37:51.330 --> 0:37:55.730
<v Speaker 1>identity and tracked him down. In nineteen fifty five, he

0:37:55.770 --> 0:37:59.250
<v Speaker 1>was living in Munich and once again running a research

0:37:59.330 --> 0:38:05.690
<v Speaker 1>lab for Siemens. One evening, over quiet conversation in Meyer's

0:38:05.730 --> 0:38:10.050
<v Speaker 1>apartment in Munich, Jones asked him why he had done

0:38:10.090 --> 0:38:14.930
<v Speaker 1>what he had done. Why had he taken such extraordinary risks?

0:38:16.130 --> 0:38:20.050
<v Speaker 1>There's a political answer and a more personal one. The

0:38:20.090 --> 0:38:24.370
<v Speaker 1>political answer is simply that Maya was a staunch anti Nazi.

0:38:25.730 --> 0:38:29.010
<v Speaker 1>The personal answer is that Maya had a friend in Britain,

0:38:29.450 --> 0:38:34.930
<v Speaker 1>another electronics expert named Henry Cobden Turner. When the Nazis

0:38:35.010 --> 0:38:39.490
<v Speaker 1>rose to power, Maya and Cobden Turner worked together to

0:38:39.610 --> 0:38:45.490
<v Speaker 1>rescue a half Jewish girl named Claudier Martyl Carvik, whose

0:38:45.570 --> 0:38:49.090
<v Speaker 1>Jewish mother had been expelled from Germany and whose Nazi

0:38:49.170 --> 0:38:54.810
<v Speaker 1>father had disowned her. At Mayer's request, Cobden Turner managed

0:38:54.810 --> 0:38:57.250
<v Speaker 1>to get a visa and a British passport for her,

0:38:57.770 --> 0:39:01.130
<v Speaker 1>and she was saved, eventually moving to New York and

0:39:01.210 --> 0:39:06.010
<v Speaker 1>living a long and happy life in America. Maya and

0:39:06.090 --> 0:39:10.770
<v Speaker 1>Cobden Turner became the most loyal of France. Cobden Turner

0:39:10.930 --> 0:39:14.930
<v Speaker 1>was godfather to Maya's son. Cobden Turner urged Maya to

0:39:15.050 --> 0:39:19.170
<v Speaker 1>leak German secrets to help bring down the Nazis, but

0:39:19.330 --> 0:39:23.130
<v Speaker 1>Maya refused. It wouldn't be right, he insisted unless the

0:39:23.170 --> 0:39:27.850
<v Speaker 1>countries were actually at war, and once war came, it

0:39:27.930 --> 0:39:32.690
<v Speaker 1>was impossible for him to reach Cobden Turner directly, hence

0:39:32.770 --> 0:39:37.170
<v Speaker 1>the pretext to visit Oslo, the borrowed typewriter, and the

0:39:37.210 --> 0:39:42.410
<v Speaker 1>mysterious letters to the Oslo embassy. Maya always hoped they

0:39:42.490 --> 0:39:45.810
<v Speaker 1>might get into Cobden Turner's hands, since he was a

0:39:45.890 --> 0:39:50.090
<v Speaker 1>radio expert himself. That was why the letters were simply

0:39:50.170 --> 0:39:53.730
<v Speaker 1>signed Martyl, the middle name of the girl they had

0:39:53.770 --> 0:39:58.330
<v Speaker 1>saved together. Cobden Turner was the only man alive who

0:39:58.370 --> 0:40:03.650
<v Speaker 1>would understand the reference. R V Jones listened to all this,

0:40:04.650 --> 0:40:09.050
<v Speaker 1>and then he kept Maya's secret for decades until both

0:40:09.090 --> 0:40:13.530
<v Speaker 1>if Mayer and Meyer's wife were dead. The Oslo report,

0:40:13.610 --> 0:40:14.410
<v Speaker 1>he said.

0:40:14.890 --> 0:40:18.890
<v Speaker 2>Was probably the best single report received from any source

0:40:19.330 --> 0:40:20.010
<v Speaker 2>during the war.

0:40:21.170 --> 0:40:25.730
<v Speaker 1>But that quiet evening in Munich did R V. Jones

0:40:25.890 --> 0:40:29.890
<v Speaker 1>tell Mayer that the British simply hadn't believed the Oslo

0:40:29.970 --> 0:40:33.730
<v Speaker 1>report and that the Royal Air Force was still debating

0:40:33.810 --> 0:40:37.050
<v Speaker 1>the existence of German radar more than a year later.

0:40:38.370 --> 0:40:45.330
<v Speaker 1>I hope not. Mayer had risked everything to warn the British.

0:40:45.450 --> 0:40:48.130
<v Speaker 1>It would have been cruel to tell him that the

0:40:48.130 --> 0:41:08.450
<v Speaker 1>British simply hadn't listened. This cautionary tale is based with

0:41:08.530 --> 0:41:12.450
<v Speaker 1>permission on Tom Whipple's book The Battle of the Beams.

0:41:12.690 --> 0:41:15.930
<v Speaker 1>It's a vivid and surprising history, and there's a lot

0:41:15.970 --> 0:41:19.210
<v Speaker 1>more to it than the argument about German radar. Pick

0:41:19.330 --> 0:41:22.170
<v Speaker 1>up a copy if you can. For a full list

0:41:22.170 --> 0:41:25.170
<v Speaker 1>of our sources, as always, see the show notes at

0:41:25.250 --> 0:41:36.290
<v Speaker 1>Timharford dot com. Cautionary Tales is written by me Tim

0:41:36.370 --> 0:41:39.730
<v Speaker 1>Harford with Andrew Wright. It's produced by Alice Fines with

0:41:39.890 --> 0:41:43.650
<v Speaker 1>support from Marilyn Rust. The sound design and original music

0:41:43.890 --> 0:41:48.130
<v Speaker 1>is the work of Pascal Wise. Sarah Nix edited the scripts.

0:41:48.810 --> 0:41:52.090
<v Speaker 1>It features the voice talents of Ben Crowe, Melanie Guttridge,

0:41:52.210 --> 0:41:56.730
<v Speaker 1>Stella Harford, Jemma Saunders and Rufus Wright. The show also

0:41:56.890 --> 0:41:59.930
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't have been possible without the work of Jacob Weisberg,

0:42:00.130 --> 0:42:05.410
<v Speaker 1>Ryan Dilley, Greta Cohne, Vital Mollard, John Schnaz, Eric's handler,

0:42:05.690 --> 0:42:10.490
<v Speaker 1>Carrie Brody, and Christina Sullivan. Tales is a production of

0:42:10.610 --> 0:42:15.450
<v Speaker 1>Pushkin Industries. It's recorded at Wardour Studios in London by

0:42:15.490 --> 0:42:19.850
<v Speaker 1>Tom Berry. If you like the show, please remember to share,

0:42:20.330 --> 0:42:23.730
<v Speaker 1>rate and review, tell your friends, and if you want

0:42:23.770 --> 0:42:26.610
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0:42:26.690 --> 0:42:30.130
<v Speaker 1>Plus on the show page in Apple Podcasts, or at

0:42:30.170 --> 0:42:43.210
<v Speaker 1>pushkin dot Fm, slash plus,