WEBVTT - Who is Kim Jung Un? Anna Fifield talks to Armstrong & Getty 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.280 Who is Kim Jong Un? It's Armstrong and Getty extra large, 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:09.280 because four hours, simply enough, this is Armstrong and Getty 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:14.320 extra large. And A Fifield is the Washington Posts Beijing 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:18.319 Bureau chief. Anna has um written for a number of 0:00:18.320 --> 0:00:21.720 publications through the years, um all the world and been 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:25.360 able to do something I'm envious of is regularly travel 0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:27.880 to North Korea and Punyang and see what it's like 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:31.160 over there, right right. And the book is the great 0:00:31.200 --> 0:00:35.680 successor the divinely perfect destiny of brilliant comrade Kim Jong Un. 0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:38.839 And A Fifield joins us. Now, Anna, this is a 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:41.239 real pleasure. How are you? I'm great, Thank you. It's 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:43.720 a pleasure from me too. Well, let me share this 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:47.199 with you that I began prepping for this interview a 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:49.599 couple of days ago, and my normal practice would be 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:52.280 to jump here and there in the book, skim look 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:55.240 at chapter headings, that sort of thing. I did a 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:58.080 miserable job at it because I started at the beginning 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:03.080 and I just couldn't stop. It really is compelling and 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:06.360 fascinating and and what a subject. If you don't mind, 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:09.440 can we start in talking about Kim Jong un by 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:13.920 talking about the Kim dynasty in general, and how you know, 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:19.000 the descriptions of Um, all of the Kim's really have 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:23.560 been that of gods of transcendent being sent from above, 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:26.720 when the beginning of the Kim regime was actually very 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:31.120 very grubby, even by political standards. Yeah, that's right. So 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:35.520 North Korea was created when some Americans drew a line 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:38.720 across the Korean peninsula at the end of the Second 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:43.840 World War, uh, and they decided to, you know, they 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:46.760 would take control of the South back the South and 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:50.400 the Soviet Union back to the North. And they installed 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:53.720 as a leader there Kim Ill Song, who was a 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:57.760 you know, supposedly, he says, he was a revolutionary anti 0:01:57.880 --> 0:02:02.200 Japanese fighter. He was somebody that the Soviets even had 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:05.680 some misgivings about at that time. But he did become 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:09.520 the leader of North Korea. And he quickly, like said about, 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:14.320 you know, out personality culting even Stalin and Mao Zadong 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:18.560 in China. He created this whole system around him as 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:23.239 if he was some kind of divine figure um chosen 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:26.520 to be the leader of North Korea. He created this 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:31.280 personality cult where everybody is forced to um adore him 0:02:31.440 --> 0:02:34.480 all the time, and now he's he passed it down 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:37.120 to his son, said Kim Jong il, who was the 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:40.359 second generation leader of North Korea, making North Korea the 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:43.880 world's first communist dynasty, and now he passed it on 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:47.080 to Kim Jong in the third generation. But they all 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:50.560 claim their legitimacy by tracing their line back to this 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:54.080 holy mountain in the north of North Korea called Mount Pectu. 0:02:54.440 --> 0:03:00.480 So so Grandpa invented this this government style that they 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:02.320 that they still used. Now, do you have any idea 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:06.400 why he worked with that? I mean that North Korea 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:09.360 started as a Soviet client state, so so much of 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:13.640 what they adopted came from the Soviet Union in terms 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:18.679 of the communist party apparatus. Well, was he a communist? Yeah, 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:22.720 he's a true blue communist ka, I mean he he 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:24.960 was a communist at the beginning. There he kind of 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:29.560 blended communism with this North Korean nationalism and made North 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:31.800 Koreans out to be better than all the other communists. 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:34.960 But yeah, he he adhered to communism. But the thing 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:39.200 is that his family has its background in Christianity. His 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:44.400 grandfather was a Protestant minister North Korea. You know, Piongyang 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:47.080 used to be called the Jerusalem of the East. So 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:50.680 there had been this tradition of Christianity in this part 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:53.640 of the world. But then, you know, kim family wiped 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:57.160 that out, made that illegal, and adopted many of the 0:03:57.440 --> 0:04:00.640 kind of stories of Christianity and bent them for their 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:04.119 own purposes. So, for example, kim Ill Song, when they 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:07.400 wrote the propaganda around his son, they said that he 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:10.640 was born on this mountain and a bright star shone 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:15.560 in the sky at night, So very similar to the genius. Yeah, 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:18.159 well so we'll go through these as we go along, 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:20.800 I imagine, but him when the original grandfather started rational 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:24.160 act or sane person Yeah, yeah, he was a rational 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:28.000 actor because he proceeded very much according to a plan 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:30.800 here where he you know, um did all the things 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:32.800 he needed to do to stay in power, and that 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:38.120 included bolstering the military, creating a strong communist party plaque, 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:40.960 hating Stalin and Mao as much as he needed to, 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:45.080 but also yes, stealing from them many parts of the system, 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:48.400 many parts of the personality cult. So yeah, he acted 0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:51.719 in a very rational way if you're a totalitarian dictator 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:53.839 who wants to stay in power. And how long did 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:56.800 kim Il Song stay in charge. Well, he took over 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:02.760 and he died in so almost fifty years the leader 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:05.760 of North Korea. His son ran it for seventeen years, 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:08.280 and Kim Jong has now been in power for seven 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:11.320 and a half. So all together, North Korea has now 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:15.360 existed for longer than the Soviet Union, which I read 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:18.039 and thought, you know, if I was a cartoon rabbit, 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:20.960 i'd have gone because I was astounded by that. But 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:24.600 that's true. Let's let's take a moment on Kim Jong il, 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:28.600 the second in line, partly because I'm an avid golfer, 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:31.320 and he made eighteen consecutive holes in one, which is 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:35.960 really an astounding achievement on his first game of golf. 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:40.240 As well, I've played with beginners. That's very imp I 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:43.240 can see why you'd never play again. Boring, which which 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:46.880 gets us to an aspect of um of the society. 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:50.200 And this is a rather jarring turn from hilarious to 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:58.680 fairly sickening. But those incredible claims of godliness those exist 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:01.640 for a couple of different reason, am I correct? One 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:04.400 of them being you don't dare dispute it, no matter 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:08.760 how ridiculous it is. Yeah, that's right. I mean, the 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:12.080 the family claims the right to lead by saying that 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:15.039 they are so special, they can do all these superhuman 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:17.400 feats and North Korea is so lucky to have them. 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:20.719 But increasingly, yeah, North Koreans know that this is all 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:24.960 made up, fantasy, impossible kind of stuff. But because the 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:28.159 police state is so severe and so strict and the 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:32.520 punishment is just unfathomable that people can't speak up and 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:35.560 criticize the regime, you know, their lives literally depend on it. 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:38.800 So what else should we know about Kim Jong UN's 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:42.680 son or I'm sorry, his father, Kim Jong ill. I mean, 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:45.480 he was a real kind of oddball. I mean he 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:50.719 was very introverted, very reclusive, and seventeen years in power, 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:54.880 he spoke in public only once, uh and that was 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:58.360 one single sentence that he uttered at a rally. So 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:02.520 he was somebody who did not appear to enjoy the 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:06.520 job at all. Whereas Kim Jong n is so different 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:09.920 from that. He's very much like his grandfather. I mean 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:12.720 part of that is by design. And like Kim Jong's 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:16.320 haircut and his clothes and his glasses and his gravelly voice, 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:19.920 all of that is copied from his grandfather. He looks 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:22.840 a lot like his grandfather, and he does that as 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:25.600 well to say, look, I am a reincarnation of this 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:30.200 great founder of our state. Um so. But Kim Jong 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:33.800 Arn is also much more like his grandfather and personality 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:36.800 he's you know, is much more outgoing. He seems to 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:41.960 enjoy interacting with people even though they're forced to enjoy 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:45.320 interacting with him. So so the middle Kim Kim Jong 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:48.240 l he was very much the aberration in this system. 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:50.760 And I mean it is a surprise, was he saying 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:54.440 and or irrational actor? Yeah? I mean he still was 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:57.080 because I mean the proof of that is that he 0:07:57.160 --> 0:08:00.000 managed to stay in power. I mean, none of these people, 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:02.120 well are good people or the kind of people you 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:06.240 would want to live under at all, But yeah, they 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:09.320 have acted in a way that is very rational. Like 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:12.480 if he was a madman and going off killing too 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:15.200 many people or not killing enough people or whatever, you know, 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:17.800 that's the equation that they're making, he wouldn't have been 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:19.680 able to do it. So yeah, all of them are 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:23.680 very brutal and ruthless, but they're not not. Case, at 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:26.600 what point did the population start starving? And what's the 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:30.280 theory behind that? I mean, what's the upside? Yeah, I 0:08:30.280 --> 0:08:32.360 mean there's no upside to the people of North Korea, 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:35.719 that's for sure, or even to the leadership. Having your 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:39.199 population starving to death, what's the goal there. Yeah, No, 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:42.160 the leadership doesn't care about the population. I mean they 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:45.040 have proven that time and time again. The leadership only 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:47.240 cares about the elites that are the people who keep 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:50.400 them in power. Um. But the starvation that happened in 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:54.400 the nine nineties, North Korea suffered this really devastating famine. 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:58.720 I mean, partly it was because of natural there was 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:00.960 a drought and there was to rend to rain, but 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:04.120 all of this was able to have an impact because 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:07.400 of the mismanagement North Korea had. You know, the agriculture 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:11.560 sector was totally broken. The leaders had mismanaged North Korea 0:09:11.600 --> 0:09:13.719 for so many decades that when this drought in this 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:18.440 flood hit, it wiped out all of the crops and 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:21.920 as many as two million people starved to death during 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:24.880 that period, and those who survived, you know, emerged the 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:28.200 skeletons from this. So there's a lot of tales from 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:31.839 children at the time. You know, children would fight over 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:35.520 a single kernel of corn that they found in a 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:38.760 cow pat over who got to eat this they were 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:42.439 so desperately hungry. So it's astounding. I mean, the regime 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:44.920 came as close as ever to collapse during that time, 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:48.640 but they did manage to make it through. Surprisingly. Okay, 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:50.960 I'm just trying to make sure I understand this because 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:53.360 I know just from for ridden enough. That's that Stalin 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:56.840 and Mao, while they starved people, they thought they were 0:09:56.880 --> 0:09:59.480 going to bring about a worker's paradise. That was their plan. 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:02.520 It just doesn't work. So but are you saying the 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:06.200 Kim's they just don't care. Yeah, I mean they were not. Yeah, 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:08.520 they did not care at that time. This this famine 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:11.360 did not happen as part of any like the Great 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:15.400 Leap Forward, and China was supposed to be this upgrading 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:19.680 of the agriculture, of the farming sector. So I mean, yes, 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:22.280 I was very misguided. But North Korea they weren't even 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:24.680 trying to help them. Wow, they don't they don't care. 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:27.839 They're just horrible at running an economy. Yeah, they really were. 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:31.720 So Listen, and before we get really into Kim Jong un, 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:35.839 who's obviously the subject of the book, was that I've 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:38.200 been reading We've been reading your stuff from the Korean 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:41.320 Peninsula for quite a while now, but I hadn't realized 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:44.200 that North Korea was such a passion of yours. And 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:46.920 how much of your adult life has been spent studying 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:50.280 and trying to understand the system and talking to people? Um? 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:54.200 When did when did you really become intensely interested in it? Yeah? 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:57.040 Well when started in two thousand and four when I 0:10:57.080 --> 0:10:59.800 was sent to Seoul by the Financial Times, which is 0:10:59.840 --> 0:11:02.800 a APRI used to work for back then. Um, And 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:05.280 I was sent to Korea, and I had unusual luck 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:08.480 in getting into North Korea, mainly you know, I'm from 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:11.120 New Zealand if you can tell by my funny accent, uh, 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:13.480 and I worked for a British paper, so it wasn't 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:15.600 as difficult for me as it was for an American 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:19.120 at that time. And it just became this fascination because 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:22.560 it's such a puzzle like how has this regime managed 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:27.120 to survive all this time despite all the changing outside world? 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:30.080 And how have the people, you know, how do they 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:33.079 tolerate it? Why do they not rise up and overthrow 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:36.120 this regime? You know, there's so many questions and so 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:38.480 a few answers, And I think that's why it's kept 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:41.240 me interested all these years well, and there it is 0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:46.000 side by side or top and bottom with certainly in 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:48.559 the last thirty forty years one of the most technologically 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:51.839 advanced modern countries in the world South Korea. Yeah, you 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:54.120 could hardly hope for a better case study. But you know, 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:58.080 one country split into the other. One is this bustling, 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:02.679 fast placed your high tech economy, and the other is like, yes, 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:05.840 stuck in the Victorian era in many respects. So I 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:07.720 realized this is silly. But I was thinking about this 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:11.120 conversation overnight, and um, I'm picturing the scenes from The 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:14.880 Lion King, the Great Disney Kids movie, where a lot 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:18.680 of the interaction between the dad and the prince is 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:22.760 dad humbling the prince and letting him know, you're going 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:26.080 to be serving, you are not going to be served. 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:29.080 I got the idea from the book that Kim Jong 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:32.800 un didn't exactly have that upbringing. He did not. He 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:36.240 had the exact opposite of that. So, I mean, he 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:40.920 was unveiled as his father's successor on his eighth birthday, 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:44.280 and he had this birthday party where you know, top 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:47.680 officials were there, his aunt and his uncle were there, 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:51.360 and a Japanese sushi chef who was working in the 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:54.240 royal compound was also there, and so I talked to 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:56.520 the aunt and the uncle and the sushi chef and 0:12:56.559 --> 0:13:00.160 they described how, you know, Kim jong un was even 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:04.000 a little general's uniform with brass buttons and epaulets and everything, 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:07.920 and real generals who were at this birthday party started 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:10.439 saluting him and bowing to him. And it was from 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:13.120 you know, that day onwards that it was impossible for 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:17.200 him to be a normal child in any respect, and 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:19.800 he got used to giving orders, you know, far from serving. 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:24.080 He got used to people serving him. Why on and 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:28.160 not his older half brother. Yeah, this is a good question. So, 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:31.160 I mean, it's commonly been thought that the older half 0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:33.360 brother fell out of favor in two thousand and one 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:35.760 when he was caught trying to sneak into Japan. He 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:38.400 was trying to go to Disneyland in Tokyo and very 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:43.079 embarrassingly got got busted at the airport. Um. But I 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:46.080 think he had actually fallen out of favor before that. 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:48.640 And the reason they think this is because of the 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:53.120 influence of their mothers. So Kim jong nam, the oldest 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:56.800 son of the third generation, his mother, you know, she 0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:59.800 moved to Moscow when the boy was three years old. 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:01.760 She was really out of the picture. She had a 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:05.679 kind of mental breakdown, nervous breakdown, and she was not 0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:09.600 influential in the regime any longer, even though she never 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:12.800 defected from it UM. Whereas Kim Jong UN's mother, she 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:15.520 was really like the first lady. She was there in 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:19.880 North Korea, very ambitious, very powerful, and she was positioning 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:22.200 her sons to be the leaders from the get go. 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:25.960 So she had Kim Jong un called the Comrade General, 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:28.160 and she made sure that they went to the west 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:31.040 point of North Korea so they could claim to have 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:34.520 the military credentials to lead this country. So I think 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:37.040 it was really the mother that was a decisive factor. 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:40.000 But you know, Kim Jong an has an older full 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:44.320 brother from the same mother. Um. I think that he 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:47.080 was chosen even though he's the younger one, because he 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:50.080 just had this natural aptitude and he showed some kind 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:52.400 of innate ability to be able to do this job. 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:55.440 So you broke the story. I guess that Young Kim's 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:58.640 brother that he assassinated at the airport was working for 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:02.600 the FBI or the CI. Yeah, that's right. So after 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:05.160 Kim jong came into power. He kind of cut off 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:07.960 this older brother who was living in exile, so he 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:11.160 wasn't getting money from the regime like he used to. Uh, 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:13.480 and so I think it was for that reason that 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:17.360 he started becoming an informant for the CIA, also I 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:20.920 heard for the South Korean Intelligence Service, probably the Japanese 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:24.240 as well. You know, he had this unique position where 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:27.240 even though he had no relationship with his brother, he 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:30.240 had a lot of contacts still with people at the 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:33.920 top of the regime, and he could have provided very 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:37.680 useful intelligence to the CIA about what was going on 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:40.200 in North Korea, you know. And the CIA would be 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:43.440 grasping at anything they could get because the simple factors 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:47.080 that there is like basically no human intelligence from inside 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:50.240 North Korea. All right, let's let's talk about the brilliant 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:53.160 comrade Kim Jong n If you were recommending him for 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:56.200 a job or something, what would be your your thumbnail 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:59.520 sketch of what kind of guy he is. I would 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:02.720 not rement him for any job, but if I were, 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:08.040 I mean, the common perception of him is that he's 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:12.040 this cartoon character, like Dr Evil style villain. Right, he 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:14.600 looks like he's straight out of jan Well, he looks 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:17.160 like a doey dope. He obviously isn't, but that's what 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:19.360 he looks like. Yeah, that's what he looks like, right, 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:21.840 And there has been a tendency to treat him as 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:25.120 if he's a cartoon character. So the point I wanted 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:28.160 to make in this book is that he is actually 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:34.120 very He's proven to be very strategic and calculating and savvy. 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:36.680 And the way he's approached this job, the way he's 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:40.440 approached the outside world, the way he's pursued nuclear weapons, 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:43.600 like everything he's done, he's done has been designed to 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:46.640 keep him in power. Whether it is you having his 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:49.360 uncle and his half brother killed, or it is firing 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:53.200 off missiles that can technically hit the United States. He's 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:57.240 proceeded according to this plan. He's certainly succeeded in getting 0:16:57.240 --> 0:17:00.720 the United States attention. Um. So the point I wanted 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:04.479 to make and here is that he we should take 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:07.720 him seriously, Like if we treat him as a joke, 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:11.840 we're underestimating him. We're underestimating the threat that he poses 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:14.639 to us in the outside world, but also the threat 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:18.200 that he poses every single day to million people who 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:21.040 live in North Korea. And you know, his victims on 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:25.880 a daily basis, his victims. But but he doesn't see 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:28.840 it that way. So I'm always most amazed by the 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:31.680 psychology of these people, even more than the politics and 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:33.280 all the other things you can look at, is just 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:36.600 how does anybody end up that way? So you're you're 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:38.800 discussing the birthday party in the general's outfit, and he 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:40.760 saw his dad and his grandpa. He is around that, 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:44.560 but he was educated abroad. He seems some of the world. 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:48.159 Doesn't he develop some human compassion at some point? I 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:51.080 hear these stories about people starving and it hurts my heart. 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:54.160 Doesn't it bother him? How does it not bother them? Yeah? 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:56.600 I mean apparently it doesn't bother him because he hasn't 0:17:56.600 --> 0:18:00.000 done anything about it. I mean, yeah, when he wasn't Switzerland, 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:02.880 he went to school there and he learned about Nelson 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:08.000 Mandela and about democracy and about religious tolerance and you know, 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:10.280 how to be a good global citizen. But he clearly 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:13.440 wasn't listening during those lessons or they made no mark 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:17.000 on him. I think for him, he justifies it to 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:19.480 himself by saying, you know, this is what I need 0:18:19.520 --> 0:18:23.159 to do to stay in power. So there's brutality. You know, 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:25.919 there's a hundred and twenty thousand people in North Korea, 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:31.439 uh living in these basically concentration camps, doing hard labor 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:34.960 almost no food that put there for questioning the regime 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:38.600 that is their only crime. Um. So he has and he, 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:41.480 Kim Jong n has continued to do this, this system 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:44.800 that he inherited from his father and grandfather. So he 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:49.680 is showing no interest whatsoever and improving the um kind 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:52.320 of social climate there for the people of North Korea 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:54.480 because all he cares about the reason I say he 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:56.600 doesn't care about the people of North Korea. He cares 0:18:56.640 --> 0:18:59.600 about staying in power. So if that's what he's got 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:01.879 to do this they empower, he is apparently willing to 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:04.399 do it. Although he's improved the capital city. Based on 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:06.320 your writing when you when you showed up after he'd 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:07.919 been in powerful while you said it was just it 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:11.040 was shocking how different it was. Yeah, it was, I mean, yes, 0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:15.040 So Pyongyang is the showcase capital where the elite lives. 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:17.720 They are the people who keep them in power. They 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:20.680 are the one percent of North Korea. So he does 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:24.760 care about those people because those are his supporters. Those 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:28.200 are the people who keep him in his job. So 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:32.159 he's made sure that they get richer and happier and 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:35.800 fatter under him. So I mean now they're you know, 0:19:36.040 --> 0:19:39.240 literally fatter. Do you mean literally fatter? Yeah, some of them. Yeah, 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:41.480 I mean not fat. Nobody's fat in North Korea apart 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:44.600 from him. But you know they look healthier. They are clearly, 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:47.120 you know, their diet has improved. They're getting what they need. 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:49.000 You can see it in their faces and in their 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:52.240 figures when you go to North Korea, We're not starving. 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:55.800 Is the new fat? That's amazing. Yeah, But I mean 0:19:55.880 --> 0:19:59.080 in in Pyongyang, if people have money, and increasingly they 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:02.000 do have money, they can live a relatively good life, 0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:04.560 you know, probably better than they would live if they 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:07.679 escape to Seoul and just when and became part of 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:11.960 the So, I mean, some people now call Pyongyang pyeong 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:15.480 Hatton because it does have that kind of New York 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:18.040 City kind of feel. I mean, that's an exaggeration, but 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:20.280 it's it's the head on this idea. Yeah, there are 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:22.800 skyscrapers and you can do a yoga class and buy 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:26.240 a cappuccino. If you wow money that is mind blowing, 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:27.679 and you go out with the countryside and people are 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:29.320 you fighting to the death over a colonel of corner. 0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:32.760 That's incredible. People have no electricity, no running water, you know, 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:35.960 they don't even have oxen to plow the fields. You know, 0:20:36.160 --> 0:20:41.680 it's really so deprived outside of this Pyonghattan area. Yeah. 0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:43.440 You know, I've spent a lot of time trying to 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:48.600 understand the mathematics of dictatorship and totalitarian regimes, and and 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:52.680 I get it. It sure seems like, well, the one 0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:58.880 commonality between your your dictators we've discussed um is megalomania. 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:01.600 And I wonder whether Kim Jong UN's papa, Kim Jong 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:04.600 il kind of lack that he just realized he was 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:06.560 He had the tiger by the tail and he had 0:21:06.600 --> 0:21:09.280 to survive and keep the regime alive. But then it 0:21:09.359 --> 0:21:12.800 strikes me that on is he's he's got the megalomania gene. 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:17.040 He believes himself to be, you know, a great great man. Yeah, 0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:19.199 I mean he does. And I was interested in this 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:21.880 and talked to some psychologists about it, and they said, 0:21:21.920 --> 0:21:25.720 there's like a kind of chemical impact of this, you know, 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:29.080 like the whole the saying about power corrupts and absolute 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:32.280 power corrupts, absolutely is based on this idea that you 0:21:32.320 --> 0:21:35.040 get a little kick of dopamine in your brain every 0:21:35.040 --> 0:21:38.000 time you exercise your power, and so there could actually 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:42.359 be a chemical reaction happening in his brain that encourages 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:45.240 him to do this more and more. While we were 0:21:45.280 --> 0:21:49.000 just talking about the you know, the him and the 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:51.520 the privilege, the way they're living there in the capital 0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:55.880 versus the countryside, maybe instead of talking about Mao and Stalin, 0:21:55.960 --> 0:21:57.720 it's better to go. You have a quote from Henry 0:21:57.720 --> 0:21:59.879 the Fifth at the beginning of your book, from Shakespeare, 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:02.960 it's better to think of like your medieval kings having 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:05.399 the big parties in the castle, and you get right 0:22:05.440 --> 0:22:08.520 outside of there and people are living like it's the 0:22:08.640 --> 0:22:12.320 year five. Yeah, I mean there is a lot of similarities, yeah, 0:22:12.359 --> 0:22:16.480