Speaker 1: Who is Kim Jong Un? It's Armstrong and Getty extra large,
Speaker 1: because four hours, simply enough, this is Armstrong and Getty
Speaker 1: extra large. And A Fifield is the Washington Posts Beijing
Speaker 1: Bureau chief. Anna has um written for a number of
Speaker 1: publications through the years, um all the world and been
Speaker 1: able to do something I'm envious of is regularly travel
Speaker 1: to North Korea and Punyang and see what it's like
Speaker 1: over there, right right. And the book is the great
Speaker 1: successor the divinely perfect destiny of brilliant comrade Kim Jong Un.
Speaker 1: And A Fifield joins us. Now, Anna, this is a
Speaker 1: real pleasure. How are you? I'm great, Thank you. It's
Speaker 1: a pleasure from me too. Well, let me share this
Speaker 1: with you that I began prepping for this interview a
Speaker 1: couple of days ago, and my normal practice would be
Speaker 1: to jump here and there in the book, skim look
Speaker 1: at chapter headings, that sort of thing. I did a
Speaker 1: miserable job at it because I started at the beginning
Speaker 1: and I just couldn't stop. It really is compelling and
Speaker 1: fascinating and and what a subject. If you don't mind,
Speaker 1: can we start in talking about Kim Jong un by
Speaker 1: talking about the Kim dynasty in general, and how you know,
Speaker 1: the descriptions of Um, all of the Kim's really have
Speaker 1: been that of gods of transcendent being sent from above,
Speaker 1: when the beginning of the Kim regime was actually very
Speaker 1: very grubby, even by political standards. Yeah, that's right. So
Speaker 1: North Korea was created when some Americans drew a line
Speaker 1: across the Korean peninsula at the end of the Second
Speaker 1: World War, uh, and they decided to, you know, they
Speaker 1: would take control of the South back the South and
Speaker 1: the Soviet Union back to the North. And they installed
Speaker 1: as a leader there Kim Ill Song, who was a
Speaker 1: you know, supposedly, he says, he was a revolutionary anti
Speaker 1: Japanese fighter. He was somebody that the Soviets even had
Speaker 1: some misgivings about at that time. But he did become
Speaker 1: the leader of North Korea. And he quickly, like said about,
Speaker 1: you know, out personality culting even Stalin and Mao Zadong
Speaker 1: in China. He created this whole system around him as
Speaker 1: if he was some kind of divine figure um chosen
Speaker 1: to be the leader of North Korea. He created this
Speaker 1: personality cult where everybody is forced to um adore him
Speaker 1: all the time, and now he's he passed it down
Speaker 1: to his son, said Kim Jong il, who was the
Speaker 1: second generation leader of North Korea, making North Korea the
Speaker 1: world's first communist dynasty, and now he passed it on
Speaker 1: to Kim Jong in the third generation. But they all
Speaker 1: claim their legitimacy by tracing their line back to this
Speaker 1: holy mountain in the north of North Korea called Mount Pectu.
Speaker 1: So so Grandpa invented this this government style that they
Speaker 1: that they still used. Now, do you have any idea
Speaker 1: why he worked with that? I mean that North Korea
Speaker 1: started as a Soviet client state, so so much of
Speaker 1: what they adopted came from the Soviet Union in terms
Speaker 1: of the communist party apparatus. Well, was he a communist? Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's a true blue communist ka, I mean he he
Speaker 1: was a communist at the beginning. There he kind of
Speaker 1: blended communism with this North Korean nationalism and made North
Speaker 1: Koreans out to be better than all the other communists.
Speaker 1: But yeah, he he adhered to communism. But the thing
Speaker 1: is that his family has its background in Christianity. His
Speaker 1: grandfather was a Protestant minister North Korea. You know, Piongyang
Speaker 1: used to be called the Jerusalem of the East. So
Speaker 1: there had been this tradition of Christianity in this part
Speaker 1: of the world. But then, you know, kim family wiped
Speaker 1: that out, made that illegal, and adopted many of the
Speaker 1: kind of stories of Christianity and bent them for their
Speaker 1: own purposes. So, for example, kim Ill Song, when they
Speaker 1: wrote the propaganda around his son, they said that he
Speaker 1: was born on this mountain and a bright star shone
Speaker 1: in the sky at night, So very similar to the genius. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well so we'll go through these as we go along,
Speaker 1: I imagine, but him when the original grandfather started rational
Speaker 1: act or sane person Yeah, yeah, he was a rational
Speaker 1: actor because he proceeded very much according to a plan
Speaker 1: here where he you know, um did all the things
Speaker 1: he needed to do to stay in power, and that
Speaker 1: included bolstering the military, creating a strong communist party plaque,
Speaker 1: hating Stalin and Mao as much as he needed to,
Speaker 1: but also yes, stealing from them many parts of the system,
Speaker 1: many parts of the personality cult. So yeah, he acted
Speaker 1: in a very rational way if you're a totalitarian dictator
Speaker 1: who wants to stay in power. And how long did
Speaker 1: kim Il Song stay in charge. Well, he took over
Speaker 1: and he died in so almost fifty years the leader
Speaker 1: of North Korea. His son ran it for seventeen years,
Speaker 1: and Kim Jong has now been in power for seven
Speaker 1: and a half. So all together, North Korea has now
Speaker 1: existed for longer than the Soviet Union, which I read
Speaker 1: and thought, you know, if I was a cartoon rabbit,
Speaker 1: i'd have gone because I was astounded by that. But
Speaker 1: that's true. Let's let's take a moment on Kim Jong il,
Speaker 1: the second in line, partly because I'm an avid golfer,
Speaker 1: and he made eighteen consecutive holes in one, which is
Speaker 1: really an astounding achievement on his first game of golf.
Speaker 1: As well, I've played with beginners. That's very imp I
Speaker 1: can see why you'd never play again. Boring, which which
Speaker 1: gets us to an aspect of um of the society.
Speaker 1: And this is a rather jarring turn from hilarious to
Speaker 1: fairly sickening. But those incredible claims of godliness those exist
Speaker 1: for a couple of different reason, am I correct? One
Speaker 1: of them being you don't dare dispute it, no matter
Speaker 1: how ridiculous it is. Yeah, that's right. I mean, the
Speaker 1: the family claims the right to lead by saying that
Speaker 1: they are so special, they can do all these superhuman
Speaker 1: feats and North Korea is so lucky to have them.
Speaker 1: But increasingly, yeah, North Koreans know that this is all
Speaker 1: made up, fantasy, impossible kind of stuff. But because the
Speaker 1: police state is so severe and so strict and the
Speaker 1: punishment is just unfathomable that people can't speak up and
Speaker 1: criticize the regime, you know, their lives literally depend on it.
Speaker 1: So what else should we know about Kim Jong UN's
Speaker 1: son or I'm sorry, his father, Kim Jong ill. I mean,
Speaker 1: he was a real kind of oddball. I mean he
Speaker 1: was very introverted, very reclusive, and seventeen years in power,
Speaker 1: he spoke in public only once, uh and that was
Speaker 1: one single sentence that he uttered at a rally. So
Speaker 1: he was somebody who did not appear to enjoy the
Speaker 1: job at all. Whereas Kim Jong n is so different
Speaker 1: from that. He's very much like his grandfather. I mean
Speaker 1: part of that is by design. And like Kim Jong's
Speaker 1: haircut and his clothes and his glasses and his gravelly voice,
Speaker 1: all of that is copied from his grandfather. He looks
Speaker 1: a lot like his grandfather, and he does that as
Speaker 1: well to say, look, I am a reincarnation of this
Speaker 1: great founder of our state. Um so. But Kim Jong
Speaker 1: Arn is also much more like his grandfather and personality
Speaker 1: he's you know, is much more outgoing. He seems to
Speaker 1: enjoy interacting with people even though they're forced to enjoy
Speaker 1: interacting with him. So so the middle Kim Kim Jong
Speaker 1: l he was very much the aberration in this system.
Speaker 1: And I mean it is a surprise, was he saying
Speaker 1: and or irrational actor? Yeah? I mean he still was
Speaker 1: because I mean the proof of that is that he
Speaker 1: managed to stay in power. I mean, none of these people,
Speaker 1: well are good people or the kind of people you
Speaker 1: would want to live under at all, But yeah, they
Speaker 1: have acted in a way that is very rational. Like
Speaker 1: if he was a madman and going off killing too
Speaker 1: many people or not killing enough people or whatever, you know,
Speaker 1: that's the equation that they're making, he wouldn't have been
Speaker 1: able to do it. So yeah, all of them are
Speaker 1: very brutal and ruthless, but they're not not. Case, at
Speaker 1: what point did the population start starving? And what's the
Speaker 1: theory behind that? I mean, what's the upside? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean there's no upside to the people of North Korea,
Speaker 1: that's for sure, or even to the leadership. Having your
Speaker 1: population starving to death, what's the goal there. Yeah, No,
Speaker 1: the leadership doesn't care about the population. I mean they
Speaker 1: have proven that time and time again. The leadership only
Speaker 1: cares about the elites that are the people who keep
Speaker 1: them in power. Um. But the starvation that happened in
Speaker 1: the nine nineties, North Korea suffered this really devastating famine.
Speaker 1: I mean, partly it was because of natural there was
Speaker 1: a drought and there was to rend to rain, but
Speaker 1: all of this was able to have an impact because
Speaker 1: of the mismanagement North Korea had. You know, the agriculture
Speaker 1: sector was totally broken. The leaders had mismanaged North Korea
Speaker 1: for so many decades that when this drought in this
Speaker 1: flood hit, it wiped out all of the crops and
Speaker 1: as many as two million people starved to death during
Speaker 1: that period, and those who survived, you know, emerged the
Speaker 1: skeletons from this. So there's a lot of tales from
Speaker 1: children at the time. You know, children would fight over
Speaker 1: a single kernel of corn that they found in a
Speaker 1: cow pat over who got to eat this they were
Speaker 1: so desperately hungry. So it's astounding. I mean, the regime
Speaker 1: came as close as ever to collapse during that time,
Speaker 1: but they did manage to make it through. Surprisingly. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to make sure I understand this because
Speaker 1: I know just from for ridden enough. That's that Stalin
Speaker 1: and Mao, while they starved people, they thought they were
Speaker 1: going to bring about a worker's paradise. That was their plan.
Speaker 1: It just doesn't work. So but are you saying the
Speaker 1: Kim's they just don't care. Yeah, I mean they were not. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they did not care at that time. This this famine
Speaker 1: did not happen as part of any like the Great
Speaker 1: Leap Forward, and China was supposed to be this upgrading
Speaker 1: of the agriculture, of the farming sector. So I mean, yes,
Speaker 1: I was very misguided. But North Korea they weren't even
Speaker 1: trying to help them. Wow, they don't they don't care.
Speaker 1: They're just horrible at running an economy. Yeah, they really were.
Speaker 1: So Listen, and before we get really into Kim Jong un,
Speaker 1: who's obviously the subject of the book, was that I've
Speaker 1: been reading We've been reading your stuff from the Korean
Speaker 1: Peninsula for quite a while now, but I hadn't realized
Speaker 1: that North Korea was such a passion of yours. And
Speaker 1: how much of your adult life has been spent studying
Speaker 1: and trying to understand the system and talking to people? Um?
Speaker 1: When did when did you really become intensely interested in it? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Well when started in two thousand and four when I
Speaker 1: was sent to Seoul by the Financial Times, which is
Speaker 1: a APRI used to work for back then. Um, And
Speaker 1: I was sent to Korea, and I had unusual luck
Speaker 1: in getting into North Korea, mainly you know, I'm from
Speaker 1: New Zealand if you can tell by my funny accent, uh,
Speaker 1: and I worked for a British paper, so it wasn't
Speaker 1: as difficult for me as it was for an American
Speaker 1: at that time. And it just became this fascination because
Speaker 1: it's such a puzzle like how has this regime managed
Speaker 1: to survive all this time despite all the changing outside world?
Speaker 1: And how have the people, you know, how do they
Speaker 1: tolerate it? Why do they not rise up and overthrow
Speaker 1: this regime? You know, there's so many questions and so
Speaker 1: a few answers, And I think that's why it's kept
Speaker 1: me interested all these years well, and there it is
Speaker 1: side by side or top and bottom with certainly in
Speaker 1: the last thirty forty years one of the most technologically
Speaker 1: advanced modern countries in the world South Korea. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: could hardly hope for a better case study. But you know,
Speaker 1: one country split into the other. One is this bustling,
Speaker 1: fast placed your high tech economy, and the other is like, yes,
Speaker 1: stuck in the Victorian era in many respects. So I
Speaker 1: realized this is silly. But I was thinking about this
Speaker 1: conversation overnight, and um, I'm picturing the scenes from The
Speaker 1: Lion King, the Great Disney Kids movie, where a lot
Speaker 1: of the interaction between the dad and the prince is
Speaker 1: dad humbling the prince and letting him know, you're going
Speaker 1: to be serving, you are not going to be served.
Speaker 1: I got the idea from the book that Kim Jong
Speaker 1: un didn't exactly have that upbringing. He did not. He
Speaker 1: had the exact opposite of that. So, I mean, he
Speaker 1: was unveiled as his father's successor on his eighth birthday,
Speaker 1: and he had this birthday party where you know, top
Speaker 1: officials were there, his aunt and his uncle were there,
Speaker 1: and a Japanese sushi chef who was working in the
Speaker 1: royal compound was also there, and so I talked to
Speaker 1: the aunt and the uncle and the sushi chef and
Speaker 1: they described how, you know, Kim jong un was even
Speaker 1: a little general's uniform with brass buttons and epaulets and everything,
Speaker 1: and real generals who were at this birthday party started
Speaker 1: saluting him and bowing to him. And it was from
Speaker 1: you know, that day onwards that it was impossible for
Speaker 1: him to be a normal child in any respect, and
Speaker 1: he got used to giving orders, you know, far from serving.
Speaker 1: He got used to people serving him. Why on and
Speaker 1: not his older half brother. Yeah, this is a good question. So,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's commonly been thought that the older half
Speaker 1: brother fell out of favor in two thousand and one
Speaker 1: when he was caught trying to sneak into Japan. He
Speaker 1: was trying to go to Disneyland in Tokyo and very
Speaker 1: embarrassingly got got busted at the airport. Um. But I
Speaker 1: think he had actually fallen out of favor before that.
Speaker 1: And the reason they think this is because of the
Speaker 1: influence of their mothers. So Kim jong nam, the oldest
Speaker 1: son of the third generation, his mother, you know, she
Speaker 1: moved to Moscow when the boy was three years old.
Speaker 1: She was really out of the picture. She had a
Speaker 1: kind of mental breakdown, nervous breakdown, and she was not
Speaker 1: influential in the regime any longer, even though she never
Speaker 1: defected from it UM. Whereas Kim Jong UN's mother, she
Speaker 1: was really like the first lady. She was there in
Speaker 1: North Korea, very ambitious, very powerful, and she was positioning
Speaker 1: her sons to be the leaders from the get go.
Speaker 1: So she had Kim Jong un called the Comrade General,
Speaker 1: and she made sure that they went to the west
Speaker 1: point of North Korea so they could claim to have
Speaker 1: the military credentials to lead this country. So I think
Speaker 1: it was really the mother that was a decisive factor.
Speaker 1: But you know, Kim Jong an has an older full
Speaker 1: brother from the same mother. Um. I think that he
Speaker 1: was chosen even though he's the younger one, because he
Speaker 1: just had this natural aptitude and he showed some kind
Speaker 1: of innate ability to be able to do this job.
Speaker 1: So you broke the story. I guess that Young Kim's
Speaker 1: brother that he assassinated at the airport was working for
Speaker 1: the FBI or the CI. Yeah, that's right. So after
Speaker 1: Kim jong came into power. He kind of cut off
Speaker 1: this older brother who was living in exile, so he
Speaker 1: wasn't getting money from the regime like he used to. Uh,
Speaker 1: and so I think it was for that reason that
Speaker 1: he started becoming an informant for the CIA, also I
Speaker 1: heard for the South Korean Intelligence Service, probably the Japanese
Speaker 1: as well. You know, he had this unique position where
Speaker 1: even though he had no relationship with his brother, he
Speaker 1: had a lot of contacts still with people at the
Speaker 1: top of the regime, and he could have provided very
Speaker 1: useful intelligence to the CIA about what was going on
Speaker 1: in North Korea, you know. And the CIA would be
Speaker 1: grasping at anything they could get because the simple factors
Speaker 1: that there is like basically no human intelligence from inside
Speaker 1: North Korea. All right, let's let's talk about the brilliant
Speaker 1: comrade Kim Jong n If you were recommending him for
Speaker 1: a job or something, what would be your your thumbnail
Speaker 1: sketch of what kind of guy he is. I would
Speaker 1: not rement him for any job, but if I were,
Speaker 1: I mean, the common perception of him is that he's
Speaker 1: this cartoon character, like Dr Evil style villain. Right, he
Speaker 1: looks like he's straight out of jan Well, he looks
Speaker 1: like a doey dope. He obviously isn't, but that's what
Speaker 1: he looks like. Yeah, that's what he looks like, right,
Speaker 1: And there has been a tendency to treat him as
Speaker 1: if he's a cartoon character. So the point I wanted
Speaker 1: to make in this book is that he is actually
Speaker 1: very He's proven to be very strategic and calculating and savvy.
Speaker 1: And the way he's approached this job, the way he's
Speaker 1: approached the outside world, the way he's pursued nuclear weapons,
Speaker 1: like everything he's done, he's done has been designed to
Speaker 1: keep him in power. Whether it is you having his
Speaker 1: uncle and his half brother killed, or it is firing
Speaker 1: off missiles that can technically hit the United States. He's
Speaker 1: proceeded according to this plan. He's certainly succeeded in getting
Speaker 1: the United States attention. Um. So the point I wanted
Speaker 1: to make and here is that he we should take
Speaker 1: him seriously, Like if we treat him as a joke,
Speaker 1: we're underestimating him. We're underestimating the threat that he poses
Speaker 1: to us in the outside world, but also the threat
Speaker 1: that he poses every single day to million people who
Speaker 1: live in North Korea. And you know, his victims on
Speaker 1: a daily basis, his victims. But but he doesn't see
Speaker 1: it that way. So I'm always most amazed by the
Speaker 1: psychology of these people, even more than the politics and
Speaker 1: all the other things you can look at, is just
Speaker 1: how does anybody end up that way? So you're you're
Speaker 1: discussing the birthday party in the general's outfit, and he
Speaker 1: saw his dad and his grandpa. He is around that,
Speaker 1: but he was educated abroad. He seems some of the world.
Speaker 1: Doesn't he develop some human compassion at some point? I
Speaker 1: hear these stories about people starving and it hurts my heart.
Speaker 1: Doesn't it bother him? How does it not bother them? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I mean apparently it doesn't bother him because he hasn't
Speaker 1: done anything about it. I mean, yeah, when he wasn't Switzerland,
Speaker 1: he went to school there and he learned about Nelson
Speaker 1: Mandela and about democracy and about religious tolerance and you know,
Speaker 1: how to be a good global citizen. But he clearly
Speaker 1: wasn't listening during those lessons or they made no mark
Speaker 1: on him. I think for him, he justifies it to
Speaker 1: himself by saying, you know, this is what I need
Speaker 1: to do to stay in power. So there's brutality. You know,
Speaker 1: there's a hundred and twenty thousand people in North Korea,
Speaker 1: uh living in these basically concentration camps, doing hard labor
Speaker 1: almost no food that put there for questioning the regime
Speaker 1: that is their only crime. Um. So he has and he,
Speaker 1: Kim Jong n has continued to do this, this system
Speaker 1: that he inherited from his father and grandfather. So he
Speaker 1: is showing no interest whatsoever and improving the um kind
Speaker 1: of social climate there for the people of North Korea
Speaker 1: because all he cares about the reason I say he
Speaker 1: doesn't care about the people of North Korea. He cares
Speaker 1: about staying in power. So if that's what he's got
Speaker 1: to do this they empower, he is apparently willing to
Speaker 1: do it. Although he's improved the capital city. Based on
Speaker 1: your writing when you when you showed up after he'd
Speaker 1: been in powerful while you said it was just it
Speaker 1: was shocking how different it was. Yeah, it was, I mean, yes,
Speaker 1: So Pyongyang is the showcase capital where the elite lives.
Speaker 1: They are the people who keep them in power. They
Speaker 1: are the one percent of North Korea. So he does
Speaker 1: care about those people because those are his supporters. Those
Speaker 1: are the people who keep him in his job. So
Speaker 1: he's made sure that they get richer and happier and
Speaker 1: fatter under him. So I mean now they're you know,
Speaker 1: literally fatter. Do you mean literally fatter? Yeah, some of them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean not fat. Nobody's fat in North Korea apart
Speaker 1: from him. But you know they look healthier. They are clearly,
Speaker 1: you know, their diet has improved. They're getting what they need.
Speaker 1: You can see it in their faces and in their
Speaker 1: figures when you go to North Korea, We're not starving.
Speaker 1: Is the new fat? That's amazing. Yeah, But I mean
Speaker 1: in in Pyongyang, if people have money, and increasingly they
Speaker 1: do have money, they can live a relatively good life,
Speaker 1: you know, probably better than they would live if they
Speaker 1: escape to Seoul and just when and became part of
Speaker 1: the So, I mean, some people now call Pyongyang pyeong
Speaker 1: Hatton because it does have that kind of New York
Speaker 1: City kind of feel. I mean, that's an exaggeration, but
Speaker 1: it's it's the head on this idea. Yeah, there are
Speaker 1: skyscrapers and you can do a yoga class and buy
Speaker 1: a cappuccino. If you wow money that is mind blowing,
Speaker 1: and you go out with the countryside and people are
Speaker 1: you fighting to the death over a colonel of corner.
Speaker 1: That's incredible. People have no electricity, no running water, you know,
Speaker 1: they don't even have oxen to plow the fields. You know,
Speaker 1: it's really so deprived outside of this Pyonghattan area. Yeah.
Speaker 1: You know, I've spent a lot of time trying to
Speaker 1: understand the mathematics of dictatorship and totalitarian regimes, and and
Speaker 1: I get it. It sure seems like, well, the one
Speaker 1: commonality between your your dictators we've discussed um is megalomania.
Speaker 1: And I wonder whether Kim Jong UN's papa, Kim Jong
Speaker 1: il kind of lack that he just realized he was
Speaker 1: He had the tiger by the tail and he had
Speaker 1: to survive and keep the regime alive. But then it
Speaker 1: strikes me that on is he's he's got the megalomania gene.
Speaker 1: He believes himself to be, you know, a great great man. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean he does. And I was interested in this
Speaker 1: and talked to some psychologists about it, and they said,
Speaker 1: there's like a kind of chemical impact of this, you know,
Speaker 1: like the whole the saying about power corrupts and absolute
Speaker 1: power corrupts, absolutely is based on this idea that you
Speaker 1: get a little kick of dopamine in your brain every
Speaker 1: time you exercise your power, and so there could actually
Speaker 1: be a chemical reaction happening in his brain that encourages
Speaker 1: him to do this more and more. While we were
Speaker 1: just talking about the you know, the him and the
Speaker 1: the privilege, the way they're living there in the capital
Speaker 1: versus the countryside, maybe instead of talking about Mao and Stalin,
Speaker 1: it's better to go. You have a quote from Henry
Speaker 1: the Fifth at the beginning of your book, from Shakespeare,
Speaker 1: it's better to think of like your medieval kings having
Speaker 1: the big parties in the castle, and you get right
Speaker 1: outside of there and people are living like it's the
Speaker 1: year five. Yeah, I mean there is a lot of similarities, yeah,
Speaker 1: between Shakespearean tragedies like this and you know the medicies
Speaker 1: of Italy and these kind of families that were full
Speaker 1: of kleptocrats and megalomaniacs and things. Yes, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of overlaps there. So listen, I know from your writing
Speaker 1: that you do have a human concern for the people
Speaker 1: of North Korea, as you've gotten no then at least
Speaker 1: to some extent, and recognize that they're human beings. Is
Speaker 1: there any reason for optimism? Are there any modernizing trends
Speaker 1: or liberalization going on at all? Yeah? There is, and
Speaker 1: and Kim johnn is allowingness increasingly, like things have improved
Speaker 1: a lot for their elites who keep him in power,
Speaker 1: and now he's beginning to allow a little more economic opening.
Speaker 1: People are able to start their own businesses and produce
Speaker 1: things and trade and make their own money within limitations.
Speaker 1: And that's a big change in North Korea, you know,
Speaker 1: a country that's technically communist and centrally planned. But he's
Speaker 1: proceeding very carefully with this because he knows this could
Speaker 1: be dangerous because when you open the country up to trade,
Speaker 1: you know, you also comes information, and it is happening
Speaker 1: in North Korea now. When traders bring clothes and solar
Speaker 1: panels and you know, rice and from China, they're also
Speaker 1: bringing little USB sticks or f D cards full of
Speaker 1: South Korean and Chinese action movies and soap operas and things.
Speaker 1: So information is starting to flow into North Korea, and
Speaker 1: it's that that could be really dangerous for Kim Jong
Speaker 1: un because you know, some more people hear about the
Speaker 1: outside world. The more they realize that, yeah, he's not
Speaker 1: a brilliant comrade genius among geniuses, and they do not
Speaker 1: live in a socialist paradise. So I think he has
Speaker 1: to proceed very carefully to try to balance the economic
Speaker 1: change with you know, with without having any political change.
Speaker 1: So I'm confused by two things you said, and I
Speaker 1: want to figure out how they match up. So if
Speaker 1: if all three Kims, including the current guy in charges,
Speaker 1: is a sane, rational actor and all they want to
Speaker 1: do is stay in power, then earlier said, we need
Speaker 1: to recognize how smart and dangerous this guy is. How
Speaker 1: dangerous can he be if he's smart and rational and
Speaker 1: wants to stay in power, because if he crosses the
Speaker 1: United States, it will be the end. Yeah, but he's
Speaker 1: made sure not to cross the United States, Right, This
Speaker 1: is what I mean about being savvy about this. Yes,
Speaker 1: he's fired a lot of missiles that could technically hit
Speaker 1: the United States, but he fired them straight up into
Speaker 1: the air, so they came straight down again, Like he's
Speaker 1: not firing them at a trajectory where they could hit
Speaker 1: Guam or Hawaii or the West Coast or anywhere in
Speaker 1: the United States. So he wants to show what he's
Speaker 1: got without crossing any of those red lines, because he
Speaker 1: knows that if he was to stick in nuclear war
Speaker 1: it on the top of one of these missiles and
Speaker 1: try to fire it anywhere near the United States, that
Speaker 1: that would provoke an overwhelming American response, that the American
Speaker 1: military would go in there and just annihilate him. So
Speaker 1: he's doing enough to show that he's serious, incredible, and
Speaker 1: that he does have these weapons, but not so much
Speaker 1: that he you know, risks you know, a suicidal mission there.
Speaker 1: What's your take on the current iteration of US North
Speaker 1: Korean nuclear talks. Yeah, I mean it's unconventional, isn't it.
Speaker 1: Like the way that that Donald Trump has acted and
Speaker 1: also the way that Kim John Learne has acted has
Speaker 1: been very different from the way it's happened in the past.
Speaker 1: But you know, I feel a little optimistic about this, um,
Speaker 1: partly because thirty years of doing the same thing with
Speaker 1: North Korea has not worked. It has not convinced the
Speaker 1: Kim regime to give up the nuclear weapons. So maybe
Speaker 1: it's time to try something different. You know, maybe they
Speaker 1: are right to have leader level talks and see if
Speaker 1: they can make any kind of progress. UM. But having
Speaker 1: said that I am not optimistic about the nuclearization, Like,
Speaker 1: there's no way Kim Jon's going to give up his weapons.
Speaker 1: He's put so much effort and so much money into
Speaker 1: these weapons. He needs them for his security or he
Speaker 1: feels that he needs them to defend himself against any
Speaker 1: kind of attack. So I can't see him giving those
Speaker 1: up any time soon. But you know, maybe he will
Speaker 1: give up something along the way. Maybe the two sides
Speaker 1: can set up a liaison office. Because remember there's no
Speaker 1: diplomatic relations between the two countries. It's a really big
Speaker 1: deal for them to talk at all about anything. So
Speaker 1: if they can set up an office where they can
Speaker 1: just be in regular contact and start to have a conversation,
Speaker 1: like then maybe they can make some progress further down
Speaker 1: the line. Like we're in the early stages. Has he
Speaker 1: ever actually fed somebody to dogs? Because like a couple
Speaker 1: of the more well publicized murders, some murders that he's
Speaker 1: pulled off, the people showed up later alive that pop
Speaker 1: star singer showed up on TV like a couple of
Speaker 1: weeks ago, that he supported singer was there in Singapore
Speaker 1: when President Trump was there, and thinks, yeah, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of people who reportedly get killed off, only to
Speaker 1: show up fine and dandy a few months later. But
Speaker 1: there are also a whole lot of people who have
Speaker 1: been executed by Kim jong n, including the defense minister
Speaker 1: who was accused of falling asleep in a meeting when
Speaker 1: Kim jongan was talking. That was one of his crimes.
Speaker 1: He was blown to pieces by an anti aircraft gun
Speaker 1: in North Korea. So there are these really horrific tales
Speaker 1: of the way people go. But but no, the uncle
Speaker 1: was not savaged by a hundred hungry dogs. He was
Speaker 1: shot with a you know, at a firing range, at
Speaker 1: a normal old execution, not not the hundred hungry dogs.
Speaker 1: But people expect more and more lurid tales from North Korea.
Speaker 1: I think so when tabloid magazines make up these kind
Speaker 1: of tales, they do go viral. But you know, the
Speaker 1: reality of life in those Koreas so horrific, we don't
Speaker 1: need to make anything kidding well, the book is the
Speaker 1: great successor the divinely perfect destiny of brilliant Comrade Kim
Speaker 1: Jong Un. I'm hoping for a similar title to my
Speaker 1: biography and uh Anna Fifield and I cannot tell you
Speaker 1: how much we enjoyed the conversation, and I hope we
Speaker 1: can do it again. Yeah, I'm so through to get it.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me on. It's a pleasure.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Okay, bye bye bye. The missing piece for
Speaker 1: me and all these studies is I don't have a
Speaker 1: hunger for power, so I don't I have a hunger
Speaker 1: for sex, I have a hunger for cheeseburgers, I have
Speaker 1: hunger for lots of things that I get, But I
Speaker 1: don't have the hunger for power, So I don't understand.
Speaker 1: I just it's hard for me to like get an
Speaker 1: emotional understanding of why these people do the things they
Speaker 1: do it because I crave power now I Yeah, well
Speaker 1: that was what I was bringing up when we were
Speaker 1: talking about Kim Jong il Own's daddy, who plainly did
Speaker 1: not dig the job. I mean he dug porn, spoke one,
Speaker 1: I'm one sentence. He was the Clarence Thomas a career
Speaker 1: in the Korean dictators But thanks for coming. But yeah,
Speaker 1: oh and obviously really really grooves to the task. He
Speaker 1: really enjoys it. How do you end up in Switzerland
Speaker 1: for a while and I watch TV and hang out
Speaker 1: with people and you think, you know, starving people is
Speaker 1: just not that nice. I don't understand how that doesn't
Speaker 1: seep into your you know, we've talked about it a
Speaker 1: little bit in terms of Hitler, his great man theory
Speaker 1: of history, that and and this is I mean, depending listen,
Speaker 1: I understand them how fraught this is morally speaking. But
Speaker 1: the great men of history whose names we know. Some
Speaker 1: of them are from like prehistory, but we know their names.
Speaker 1: They killed a lot of people, a lot of people.
Speaker 1: And the theory among megalomaniac's is he just can't worry
Speaker 1: about that that is necessary to the task, or you know,
Speaker 1: it's often necessary and if it becomes necessary, you just
Speaker 1: gotta do it and don't be whining about it. You're
Speaker 1: not cut out to be a great man. So one
Speaker 1: looks at it. He says, look, we've got pretty limited resources.
Speaker 1: We don't have enough to feed the hinterlands, the common people.
Speaker 1: There's just not enough resources. I've got to keep the
Speaker 1: elite together and supporting me, and we're great and we
Speaker 1: will lead to this country into a great you know,
Speaker 1: communists to whatever f um and you spend all day
Speaker 1: one or I wonder if that guy is gonna stick
Speaker 1: a knife in me. Yeah, I tell you what that's
Speaker 1: I wish there was some way. I mean, you almost
Speaker 1: have to have somebody give up dictatorial power, like people
Speaker 1: give up drugs and then talk about, you know, begging
Speaker 1: on the street to get in. How miserable it was.
Speaker 1: I would love to hear Kim Jong won speak at
Speaker 1: length about with the calculation you have to make. I mean,
Speaker 1: for instance, our minister of agriculture, it was clear to
Speaker 1: me that he was taking bribes. But just explain how
Speaker 1: that works on a date date basis, How do you
Speaker 1: how do you be dictator? That's gonna be incredibly stressful work,
Speaker 1: you would think, I mean a lot of them hang
Speaker 1: onto the job for a long time though. Yeah, how
Speaker 1: about that? The Kims have been in power longer than
Speaker 1: Soviet Union existed. How about that? How does hereditary fit
Speaker 1: in with communism? And they have to spin that a
Speaker 1: certain playing Well, yeah, that's why they combine communism with
Speaker 1: nationalism with a cult of personality. You know, have been
Speaker 1: the facts to fit the circumstances. But wow, what a
Speaker 1: compelling book. I can't wait to dive back into it,
Speaker 1: and will it fall in my lifetime? I'd sure like
Speaker 1: to see because it's gonna end sometime. It can't keep
Speaker 1: going forever. I was thinking that same thing because Anna,
Speaker 1: and you know you read it, you understand she she
Speaker 1: is sickened by what the Korean people have to put
Speaker 1: up with, And I found myself wishing for her that
Speaker 1: she lives long enough to see, well a positive outcome.
Speaker 1: I mean, if it goes gets even worse, maybe she'd
Speaker 1: be better off not seeing it. But you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, You just you want to know if that
Speaker 1: this can't go on, This cannot go on, and yet
Speaker 1: it has good stuff. The book is the great successor
Speaker 1: extra large