1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,280 Speaker 1: Who is Kim Jong Un? It's Armstrong and Getty extra large, 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: because four hours, simply enough, this is Armstrong and Getty 3 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: extra large. And A Fifield is the Washington Posts Beijing 4 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:18,319 Speaker 1: Bureau chief. Anna has um written for a number of 5 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: publications through the years, um all the world and been 6 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: able to do something I'm envious of is regularly travel 7 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: to North Korea and Punyang and see what it's like 8 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: over there, right right. And the book is the great 9 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: successor the divinely perfect destiny of brilliant comrade Kim Jong Un. 10 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 1: And A Fifield joins us. Now, Anna, this is a 11 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:41,239 Speaker 1: real pleasure. How are you? I'm great, Thank you. It's 12 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: a pleasure from me too. Well, let me share this 13 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: with you that I began prepping for this interview a 14 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:49,599 Speaker 1: couple of days ago, and my normal practice would be 15 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: to jump here and there in the book, skim look 16 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: at chapter headings, that sort of thing. I did a 17 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: miserable job at it because I started at the beginning 18 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: and I just couldn't stop. It really is compelling and 19 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: fascinating and and what a subject. If you don't mind, 20 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: can we start in talking about Kim Jong un by 21 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: talking about the Kim dynasty in general, and how you know, 22 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: the descriptions of Um, all of the Kim's really have 23 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: been that of gods of transcendent being sent from above, 24 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: when the beginning of the Kim regime was actually very 25 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 1: very grubby, even by political standards. Yeah, that's right. So 26 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: North Korea was created when some Americans drew a line 27 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: across the Korean peninsula at the end of the Second 28 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: World War, uh, and they decided to, you know, they 29 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: would take control of the South back the South and 30 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union back to the North. And they installed 31 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: as a leader there Kim Ill Song, who was a 32 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: you know, supposedly, he says, he was a revolutionary anti 33 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: Japanese fighter. He was somebody that the Soviets even had 34 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: some misgivings about at that time. But he did become 35 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: the leader of North Korea. And he quickly, like said about, 36 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: you know, out personality culting even Stalin and Mao Zadong 37 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: in China. He created this whole system around him as 38 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:23,239 Speaker 1: if he was some kind of divine figure um chosen 39 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: to be the leader of North Korea. He created this 40 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: personality cult where everybody is forced to um adore him 41 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: all the time, and now he's he passed it down 42 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: to his son, said Kim Jong il, who was the 43 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 1: second generation leader of North Korea, making North Korea the 44 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: world's first communist dynasty, and now he passed it on 45 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 1: to Kim Jong in the third generation. But they all 46 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: claim their legitimacy by tracing their line back to this 47 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 1: holy mountain in the north of North Korea called Mount Pectu. 48 00:02:54,440 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: So so Grandpa invented this this government style that they 49 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: that they still used. Now, do you have any idea 50 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: why he worked with that? I mean that North Korea 51 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: started as a Soviet client state, so so much of 52 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: what they adopted came from the Soviet Union in terms 53 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:18,679 Speaker 1: of the communist party apparatus. Well, was he a communist? Yeah, 54 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: he's a true blue communist ka, I mean he he 55 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: was a communist at the beginning. There he kind of 56 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: blended communism with this North Korean nationalism and made North 57 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 1: Koreans out to be better than all the other communists. 58 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: But yeah, he he adhered to communism. But the thing 59 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: is that his family has its background in Christianity. His 60 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: grandfather was a Protestant minister North Korea. You know, Piongyang 61 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: used to be called the Jerusalem of the East. So 62 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: there had been this tradition of Christianity in this part 63 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 1: of the world. But then, you know, kim family wiped 64 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: that out, made that illegal, and adopted many of the 65 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: kind of stories of Christianity and bent them for their 66 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:04,119 Speaker 1: own purposes. So, for example, kim Ill Song, when they 67 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: wrote the propaganda around his son, they said that he 68 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: was born on this mountain and a bright star shone 69 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: in the sky at night, So very similar to the genius. Yeah, 70 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,159 Speaker 1: well so we'll go through these as we go along, 71 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 1: I imagine, but him when the original grandfather started rational 72 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 1: act or sane person Yeah, yeah, he was a rational 73 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: actor because he proceeded very much according to a plan 74 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: here where he you know, um did all the things 75 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: he needed to do to stay in power, and that 76 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: included bolstering the military, creating a strong communist party plaque, 77 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: hating Stalin and Mao as much as he needed to, 78 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 1: but also yes, stealing from them many parts of the system, 79 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: many parts of the personality cult. So yeah, he acted 80 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 1: in a very rational way if you're a totalitarian dictator 81 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 1: who wants to stay in power. And how long did 82 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: kim Il Song stay in charge. Well, he took over 83 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: and he died in so almost fifty years the leader 84 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: of North Korea. His son ran it for seventeen years, 85 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 1: and Kim Jong has now been in power for seven 86 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: and a half. So all together, North Korea has now 87 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: existed for longer than the Soviet Union, which I read 88 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,039 Speaker 1: and thought, you know, if I was a cartoon rabbit, 89 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: i'd have gone because I was astounded by that. But 90 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: that's true. Let's let's take a moment on Kim Jong il, 91 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 1: the second in line, partly because I'm an avid golfer, 92 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: and he made eighteen consecutive holes in one, which is 93 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: really an astounding achievement on his first game of golf. 94 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: As well, I've played with beginners. That's very imp I 95 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: can see why you'd never play again. Boring, which which 96 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: gets us to an aspect of um of the society. 97 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: And this is a rather jarring turn from hilarious to 98 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: fairly sickening. But those incredible claims of godliness those exist 99 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: for a couple of different reason, am I correct? One 100 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: of them being you don't dare dispute it, no matter 101 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: how ridiculous it is. Yeah, that's right. I mean, the 102 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: the family claims the right to lead by saying that 103 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 1: they are so special, they can do all these superhuman 104 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: feats and North Korea is so lucky to have them. 105 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 1: But increasingly, yeah, North Koreans know that this is all 106 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: made up, fantasy, impossible kind of stuff. But because the 107 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 1: police state is so severe and so strict and the 108 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: punishment is just unfathomable that people can't speak up and 109 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: criticize the regime, you know, their lives literally depend on it. 110 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 1: So what else should we know about Kim Jong UN's 111 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: son or I'm sorry, his father, Kim Jong ill. I mean, 112 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 1: he was a real kind of oddball. I mean he 113 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: was very introverted, very reclusive, and seventeen years in power, 114 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: he spoke in public only once, uh and that was 115 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 1: one single sentence that he uttered at a rally. So 116 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: he was somebody who did not appear to enjoy the 117 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: job at all. Whereas Kim Jong n is so different 118 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: from that. He's very much like his grandfather. I mean 119 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: part of that is by design. And like Kim Jong's 120 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: haircut and his clothes and his glasses and his gravelly voice, 121 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: all of that is copied from his grandfather. He looks 122 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 1: a lot like his grandfather, and he does that as 123 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: well to say, look, I am a reincarnation of this 124 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: great founder of our state. Um so. But Kim Jong 125 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: Arn is also much more like his grandfather and personality 126 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: he's you know, is much more outgoing. He seems to 127 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: enjoy interacting with people even though they're forced to enjoy 128 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: interacting with him. So so the middle Kim Kim Jong 129 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: l he was very much the aberration in this system. 130 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: And I mean it is a surprise, was he saying 131 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: and or irrational actor? Yeah? I mean he still was 132 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: because I mean the proof of that is that he 133 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: managed to stay in power. I mean, none of these people, 134 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: well are good people or the kind of people you 135 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: would want to live under at all, But yeah, they 136 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: have acted in a way that is very rational. Like 137 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: if he was a madman and going off killing too 138 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: many people or not killing enough people or whatever, you know, 139 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: that's the equation that they're making, he wouldn't have been 140 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: able to do it. So yeah, all of them are 141 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: very brutal and ruthless, but they're not not. Case, at 142 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: what point did the population start starving? And what's the 143 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: theory behind that? I mean, what's the upside? Yeah, I 144 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: mean there's no upside to the people of North Korea, 145 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,719 Speaker 1: that's for sure, or even to the leadership. Having your 146 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,199 Speaker 1: population starving to death, what's the goal there. Yeah, No, 147 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: the leadership doesn't care about the population. I mean they 148 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: have proven that time and time again. The leadership only 149 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: cares about the elites that are the people who keep 150 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: them in power. Um. But the starvation that happened in 151 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: the nine nineties, North Korea suffered this really devastating famine. 152 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: I mean, partly it was because of natural there was 153 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: a drought and there was to rend to rain, but 154 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: all of this was able to have an impact because 155 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: of the mismanagement North Korea had. You know, the agriculture 156 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 1: sector was totally broken. The leaders had mismanaged North Korea 157 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:13,719 Speaker 1: for so many decades that when this drought in this 158 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 1: flood hit, it wiped out all of the crops and 159 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: as many as two million people starved to death during 160 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: that period, and those who survived, you know, emerged the 161 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 1: skeletons from this. So there's a lot of tales from 162 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,839 Speaker 1: children at the time. You know, children would fight over 163 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: a single kernel of corn that they found in a 164 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: cow pat over who got to eat this they were 165 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:42,439 Speaker 1: so desperately hungry. So it's astounding. I mean, the regime 166 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: came as close as ever to collapse during that time, 167 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: but they did manage to make it through. Surprisingly. Okay, 168 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: I'm just trying to make sure I understand this because 169 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: I know just from for ridden enough. That's that Stalin 170 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: and Mao, while they starved people, they thought they were 171 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: going to bring about a worker's paradise. That was their plan. 172 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: It just doesn't work. So but are you saying the 173 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 1: Kim's they just don't care. Yeah, I mean they were not. Yeah, 174 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: they did not care at that time. This this famine 175 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: did not happen as part of any like the Great 176 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: Leap Forward, and China was supposed to be this upgrading 177 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 1: of the agriculture, of the farming sector. So I mean, yes, 178 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: I was very misguided. But North Korea they weren't even 179 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 1: trying to help them. Wow, they don't they don't care. 180 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:27,839 Speaker 1: They're just horrible at running an economy. Yeah, they really were. 181 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: So Listen, and before we get really into Kim Jong un, 182 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,839 Speaker 1: who's obviously the subject of the book, was that I've 183 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 1: been reading We've been reading your stuff from the Korean 184 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 1: Peninsula for quite a while now, but I hadn't realized 185 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 1: that North Korea was such a passion of yours. And 186 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: how much of your adult life has been spent studying 187 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: and trying to understand the system and talking to people? Um? 188 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: When did when did you really become intensely interested in it? Yeah? 189 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: Well when started in two thousand and four when I 190 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: was sent to Seoul by the Financial Times, which is 191 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: a APRI used to work for back then. Um, And 192 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: I was sent to Korea, and I had unusual luck 193 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: in getting into North Korea, mainly you know, I'm from 194 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: New Zealand if you can tell by my funny accent, uh, 195 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: and I worked for a British paper, so it wasn't 196 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: as difficult for me as it was for an American 197 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: at that time. And it just became this fascination because 198 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: it's such a puzzle like how has this regime managed 199 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: to survive all this time despite all the changing outside world? 200 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 1: And how have the people, you know, how do they 201 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,079 Speaker 1: tolerate it? Why do they not rise up and overthrow 202 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: this regime? You know, there's so many questions and so 203 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: a few answers, And I think that's why it's kept 204 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: me interested all these years well, and there it is 205 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: side by side or top and bottom with certainly in 206 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,559 Speaker 1: the last thirty forty years one of the most technologically 207 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,839 Speaker 1: advanced modern countries in the world South Korea. Yeah, you 208 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: could hardly hope for a better case study. But you know, 209 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 1: one country split into the other. One is this bustling, 210 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:02,679 Speaker 1: fast placed your high tech economy, and the other is like, yes, 211 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 1: stuck in the Victorian era in many respects. So I 212 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: realized this is silly. But I was thinking about this 213 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 1: conversation overnight, and um, I'm picturing the scenes from The 214 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: Lion King, the Great Disney Kids movie, where a lot 215 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 1: of the interaction between the dad and the prince is 216 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: dad humbling the prince and letting him know, you're going 217 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 1: to be serving, you are not going to be served. 218 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 1: I got the idea from the book that Kim Jong 219 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: un didn't exactly have that upbringing. He did not. He 220 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: had the exact opposite of that. So, I mean, he 221 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 1: was unveiled as his father's successor on his eighth birthday, 222 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: and he had this birthday party where you know, top 223 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 1: officials were there, his aunt and his uncle were there, 224 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: and a Japanese sushi chef who was working in the 225 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: royal compound was also there, and so I talked to 226 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: the aunt and the uncle and the sushi chef and 227 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 1: they described how, you know, Kim jong un was even 228 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: a little general's uniform with brass buttons and epaulets and everything, 229 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: and real generals who were at this birthday party started 230 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:10,439 Speaker 1: saluting him and bowing to him. And it was from 231 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: you know, that day onwards that it was impossible for 232 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 1: him to be a normal child in any respect, and 233 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: he got used to giving orders, you know, far from serving. 234 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 1: He got used to people serving him. Why on and 235 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 1: not his older half brother. Yeah, this is a good question. So, 236 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: I mean, it's commonly been thought that the older half 237 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: brother fell out of favor in two thousand and one 238 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: when he was caught trying to sneak into Japan. He 239 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: was trying to go to Disneyland in Tokyo and very 240 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:43,079 Speaker 1: embarrassingly got got busted at the airport. Um. But I 241 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,080 Speaker 1: think he had actually fallen out of favor before that. 242 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: And the reason they think this is because of the 243 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: influence of their mothers. So Kim jong nam, the oldest 244 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: son of the third generation, his mother, you know, she 245 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: moved to Moscow when the boy was three years old. 246 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: She was really out of the picture. She had a 247 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 1: kind of mental breakdown, nervous breakdown, and she was not 248 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: influential in the regime any longer, even though she never 249 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 1: defected from it UM. Whereas Kim Jong UN's mother, she 250 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: was really like the first lady. She was there in 251 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: North Korea, very ambitious, very powerful, and she was positioning 252 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: her sons to be the leaders from the get go. 253 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: So she had Kim Jong un called the Comrade General, 254 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: and she made sure that they went to the west 255 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: point of North Korea so they could claim to have 256 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: the military credentials to lead this country. So I think 257 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: it was really the mother that was a decisive factor. 258 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: But you know, Kim Jong an has an older full 259 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: brother from the same mother. Um. I think that he 260 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: was chosen even though he's the younger one, because he 261 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: just had this natural aptitude and he showed some kind 262 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: of innate ability to be able to do this job. 263 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: So you broke the story. I guess that Young Kim's 264 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 1: brother that he assassinated at the airport was working for 265 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: the FBI or the CI. Yeah, that's right. So after 266 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: Kim jong came into power. He kind of cut off 267 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: this older brother who was living in exile, so he 268 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: wasn't getting money from the regime like he used to. Uh, 269 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: and so I think it was for that reason that 270 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: he started becoming an informant for the CIA, also I 271 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: heard for the South Korean Intelligence Service, probably the Japanese 272 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: as well. You know, he had this unique position where 273 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: even though he had no relationship with his brother, he 274 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: had a lot of contacts still with people at the 275 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: top of the regime, and he could have provided very 276 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: useful intelligence to the CIA about what was going on 277 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 1: in North Korea, you know. And the CIA would be 278 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: grasping at anything they could get because the simple factors 279 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: that there is like basically no human intelligence from inside 280 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: North Korea. All right, let's let's talk about the brilliant 281 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: comrade Kim Jong n If you were recommending him for 282 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: a job or something, what would be your your thumbnail 283 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: sketch of what kind of guy he is. I would 284 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: not rement him for any job, but if I were, 285 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: I mean, the common perception of him is that he's 286 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: this cartoon character, like Dr Evil style villain. Right, he 287 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: looks like he's straight out of jan Well, he looks 288 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: like a doey dope. He obviously isn't, but that's what 289 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: he looks like. Yeah, that's what he looks like, right, 290 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: And there has been a tendency to treat him as 291 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: if he's a cartoon character. So the point I wanted 292 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: to make in this book is that he is actually 293 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 1: very He's proven to be very strategic and calculating and savvy. 294 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: And the way he's approached this job, the way he's 295 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: approached the outside world, the way he's pursued nuclear weapons, 296 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: like everything he's done, he's done has been designed to 297 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: keep him in power. Whether it is you having his 298 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: uncle and his half brother killed, or it is firing 299 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: off missiles that can technically hit the United States. He's 300 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: proceeded according to this plan. He's certainly succeeded in getting 301 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: the United States attention. Um. So the point I wanted 302 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:04,479 Speaker 1: to make and here is that he we should take 303 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: him seriously, Like if we treat him as a joke, 304 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: we're underestimating him. We're underestimating the threat that he poses 305 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 1: to us in the outside world, but also the threat 306 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: that he poses every single day to million people who 307 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: live in North Korea. And you know, his victims on 308 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:25,880 Speaker 1: a daily basis, his victims. But but he doesn't see 309 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: it that way. So I'm always most amazed by the 310 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 1: psychology of these people, even more than the politics and 311 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: all the other things you can look at, is just 312 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: how does anybody end up that way? So you're you're 313 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: discussing the birthday party in the general's outfit, and he 314 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: saw his dad and his grandpa. He is around that, 315 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: but he was educated abroad. He seems some of the world. 316 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 1: Doesn't he develop some human compassion at some point? I 317 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: hear these stories about people starving and it hurts my heart. 318 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 1: Doesn't it bother him? How does it not bother them? Yeah? 319 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: I mean apparently it doesn't bother him because he hasn't 320 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: done anything about it. I mean, yeah, when he wasn't Switzerland, 321 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,880 Speaker 1: he went to school there and he learned about Nelson 322 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: Mandela and about democracy and about religious tolerance and you know, 323 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: how to be a good global citizen. But he clearly 324 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,440 Speaker 1: wasn't listening during those lessons or they made no mark 325 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: on him. I think for him, he justifies it to 326 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: himself by saying, you know, this is what I need 327 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,159 Speaker 1: to do to stay in power. So there's brutality. You know, 328 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 1: there's a hundred and twenty thousand people in North Korea, 329 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 1: uh living in these basically concentration camps, doing hard labor 330 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 1: almost no food that put there for questioning the regime 331 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: that is their only crime. Um. So he has and he, 332 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: Kim Jong n has continued to do this, this system 333 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: that he inherited from his father and grandfather. So he 334 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 1: is showing no interest whatsoever and improving the um kind 335 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: of social climate there for the people of North Korea 336 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: because all he cares about the reason I say he 337 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: doesn't care about the people of North Korea. He cares 338 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: about staying in power. So if that's what he's got 339 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:01,879 Speaker 1: to do this they empower, he is apparently willing to 340 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 1: do it. Although he's improved the capital city. Based on 341 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: your writing when you when you showed up after he'd 342 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:07,919 Speaker 1: been in powerful while you said it was just it 343 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: was shocking how different it was. Yeah, it was, I mean, yes, 344 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: So Pyongyang is the showcase capital where the elite lives. 345 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: They are the people who keep them in power. They 346 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: are the one percent of North Korea. So he does 347 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: care about those people because those are his supporters. Those 348 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:28,200 Speaker 1: are the people who keep him in his job. So 349 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: he's made sure that they get richer and happier and 350 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: fatter under him. So I mean now they're you know, 351 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 1: literally fatter. Do you mean literally fatter? Yeah, some of them. Yeah, 352 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: I mean not fat. Nobody's fat in North Korea apart 353 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: from him. But you know they look healthier. They are clearly, 354 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,120 Speaker 1: you know, their diet has improved. They're getting what they need. 355 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: You can see it in their faces and in their 356 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: figures when you go to North Korea, We're not starving. 357 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 1: Is the new fat? That's amazing. Yeah, But I mean 358 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: in in Pyongyang, if people have money, and increasingly they 359 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: do have money, they can live a relatively good life, 360 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: you know, probably better than they would live if they 361 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,679 Speaker 1: escape to Seoul and just when and became part of 362 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 1: the So, I mean, some people now call Pyongyang pyeong 363 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: Hatton because it does have that kind of New York 364 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: City kind of feel. I mean, that's an exaggeration, but 365 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: it's it's the head on this idea. Yeah, there are 366 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: skyscrapers and you can do a yoga class and buy 367 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 1: a cappuccino. If you wow money that is mind blowing, 368 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:27,679 Speaker 1: and you go out with the countryside and people are 369 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: you fighting to the death over a colonel of corner. 370 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: That's incredible. People have no electricity, no running water, you know, 371 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 1: they don't even have oxen to plow the fields. You know, 372 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 1: it's really so deprived outside of this Pyonghattan area. Yeah. 373 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 1: You know, I've spent a lot of time trying to 374 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 1: understand the mathematics of dictatorship and totalitarian regimes, and and 375 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 1: I get it. It sure seems like, well, the one 376 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:58,880 Speaker 1: commonality between your your dictators we've discussed um is megalomania. 377 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: And I wonder whether Kim Jong UN's papa, Kim Jong 378 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 1: il kind of lack that he just realized he was 379 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: He had the tiger by the tail and he had 380 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: to survive and keep the regime alive. But then it 381 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: strikes me that on is he's he's got the megalomania gene. 382 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: He believes himself to be, you know, a great great man. Yeah, 383 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 1: I mean he does. And I was interested in this 384 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 1: and talked to some psychologists about it, and they said, 385 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 1: there's like a kind of chemical impact of this, you know, 386 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: like the whole the saying about power corrupts and absolute 387 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: power corrupts, absolutely is based on this idea that you 388 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: get a little kick of dopamine in your brain every 389 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: time you exercise your power, and so there could actually 390 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: be a chemical reaction happening in his brain that encourages 391 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: him to do this more and more. While we were 392 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: just talking about the you know, the him and the 393 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: the privilege, the way they're living there in the capital 394 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 1: versus the countryside, maybe instead of talking about Mao and Stalin, 395 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 1: it's better to go. You have a quote from Henry 396 00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: the Fifth at the beginning of your book, from Shakespeare, 397 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: it's better to think of like your medieval kings having 398 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 1: the big parties in the castle, and you get right 399 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: outside of there and people are living like it's the 400 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: year five. Yeah, I mean there is a lot of similarities, yeah, 401 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 1: between Shakespearean tragedies like this and you know the medicies 402 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: of Italy and these kind of families that were full 403 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: of kleptocrats and megalomaniacs and things. Yes, there's a lot 404 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 1: of overlaps there. So listen, I know from your writing 405 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: that you do have a human concern for the people 406 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: of North Korea, as you've gotten no then at least 407 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: to some extent, and recognize that they're human beings. Is 408 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 1: there any reason for optimism? Are there any modernizing trends 409 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: or liberalization going on at all? Yeah? There is, and 410 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:46,360 Speaker 1: and Kim johnn is allowingness increasingly, like things have improved 411 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 1: a lot for their elites who keep him in power, 412 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: and now he's beginning to allow a little more economic opening. 413 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:57,640 Speaker 1: People are able to start their own businesses and produce 414 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: things and trade and make their own money within limitations. 415 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 1: And that's a big change in North Korea, you know, 416 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 1: a country that's technically communist and centrally planned. But he's 417 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,640 Speaker 1: proceeding very carefully with this because he knows this could 418 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: be dangerous because when you open the country up to trade, 419 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:20,360 Speaker 1: you know, you also comes information, and it is happening 420 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: in North Korea now. When traders bring clothes and solar 421 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:29,880 Speaker 1: panels and you know, rice and from China, they're also 422 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,919 Speaker 1: bringing little USB sticks or f D cards full of 423 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 1: South Korean and Chinese action movies and soap operas and things. 424 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: So information is starting to flow into North Korea, and 425 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: it's that that could be really dangerous for Kim Jong 426 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: un because you know, some more people hear about the 427 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 1: outside world. The more they realize that, yeah, he's not 428 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: a brilliant comrade genius among geniuses, and they do not 429 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,640 Speaker 1: live in a socialist paradise. So I think he has 430 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 1: to proceed very carefully to try to balance the economic 431 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,719 Speaker 1: change with you know, with without having any political change. 432 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 1: So I'm confused by two things you said, and I 433 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: want to figure out how they match up. So if 434 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 1: if all three Kims, including the current guy in charges, 435 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: is a sane, rational actor and all they want to 436 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 1: do is stay in power, then earlier said, we need 437 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,400 Speaker 1: to recognize how smart and dangerous this guy is. How 438 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,639 Speaker 1: dangerous can he be if he's smart and rational and 439 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: wants to stay in power, because if he crosses the 440 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: United States, it will be the end. Yeah, but he's 441 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: made sure not to cross the United States, Right, This 442 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: is what I mean about being savvy about this. Yes, 443 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: he's fired a lot of missiles that could technically hit 444 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: the United States, but he fired them straight up into 445 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: the air, so they came straight down again, Like he's 446 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: not firing them at a trajectory where they could hit 447 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: Guam or Hawaii or the West Coast or anywhere in 448 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: the United States. So he wants to show what he's 449 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 1: got without crossing any of those red lines, because he 450 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,880 Speaker 1: knows that if he was to stick in nuclear war 451 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 1: it on the top of one of these missiles and 452 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: try to fire it anywhere near the United States, that 453 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: that would provoke an overwhelming American response, that the American 454 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: military would go in there and just annihilate him. So 455 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:17,479 Speaker 1: he's doing enough to show that he's serious, incredible, and 456 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 1: that he does have these weapons, but not so much 457 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: that he you know, risks you know, a suicidal mission there. 458 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: What's your take on the current iteration of US North 459 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: Korean nuclear talks. Yeah, I mean it's unconventional, isn't it. 460 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,879 Speaker 1: Like the way that that Donald Trump has acted and 461 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: also the way that Kim John Learne has acted has 462 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,199 Speaker 1: been very different from the way it's happened in the past. 463 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 1: But you know, I feel a little optimistic about this, um, 464 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: partly because thirty years of doing the same thing with 465 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,399 Speaker 1: North Korea has not worked. It has not convinced the 466 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: Kim regime to give up the nuclear weapons. So maybe 467 00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 1: it's time to try something different. You know, maybe they 468 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: are right to have leader level talks and see if 469 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: they can make any kind of progress. UM. But having 470 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 1: said that I am not optimistic about the nuclearization, Like, 471 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: there's no way Kim Jon's going to give up his weapons. 472 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 1: He's put so much effort and so much money into 473 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 1: these weapons. He needs them for his security or he 474 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 1: feels that he needs them to defend himself against any 475 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,920 Speaker 1: kind of attack. So I can't see him giving those 476 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: up any time soon. But you know, maybe he will 477 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,360 Speaker 1: give up something along the way. Maybe the two sides 478 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 1: can set up a liaison office. Because remember there's no 479 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: diplomatic relations between the two countries. It's a really big 480 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 1: deal for them to talk at all about anything. So 481 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: if they can set up an office where they can 482 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: just be in regular contact and start to have a conversation, 483 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: like then maybe they can make some progress further down 484 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 1: the line. Like we're in the early stages. Has he 485 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: ever actually fed somebody to dogs? Because like a couple 486 00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:00,880 Speaker 1: of the more well publicized murders, some murders that he's 487 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: pulled off, the people showed up later alive that pop 488 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 1: star singer showed up on TV like a couple of 489 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 1: weeks ago, that he supported singer was there in Singapore 490 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:10,959 Speaker 1: when President Trump was there, and thinks, yeah, there's a 491 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: lot of people who reportedly get killed off, only to 492 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: show up fine and dandy a few months later. But 493 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,639 Speaker 1: there are also a whole lot of people who have 494 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: been executed by Kim jong n, including the defense minister 495 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: who was accused of falling asleep in a meeting when 496 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,120 Speaker 1: Kim jongan was talking. That was one of his crimes. 497 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 1: He was blown to pieces by an anti aircraft gun 498 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: in North Korea. So there are these really horrific tales 499 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,160 Speaker 1: of the way people go. But but no, the uncle 500 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,919 Speaker 1: was not savaged by a hundred hungry dogs. He was 501 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 1: shot with a you know, at a firing range, at 502 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 1: a normal old execution, not not the hundred hungry dogs. 503 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 1: But people expect more and more lurid tales from North Korea. 504 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,400 Speaker 1: I think so when tabloid magazines make up these kind 505 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: of tales, they do go viral. But you know, the 506 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,400 Speaker 1: reality of life in those Koreas so horrific, we don't 507 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: need to make anything kidding well, the book is the 508 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: great successor the divinely perfect destiny of brilliant Comrade Kim 509 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,639 Speaker 1: Jong Un. I'm hoping for a similar title to my 510 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,679 Speaker 1: biography and uh Anna Fifield and I cannot tell you 511 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 1: how much we enjoyed the conversation, and I hope we 512 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,199 Speaker 1: can do it again. Yeah, I'm so through to get it. 513 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me on. It's a pleasure. 514 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: Thank you. Okay, bye bye bye. The missing piece for 515 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: me and all these studies is I don't have a 516 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,639 Speaker 1: hunger for power, so I don't I have a hunger 517 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: for sex, I have a hunger for cheeseburgers, I have 518 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: hunger for lots of things that I get, But I 519 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: don't have the hunger for power, So I don't understand. 520 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 1: I just it's hard for me to like get an 521 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: emotional understanding of why these people do the things they 522 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 1: do it because I crave power now I Yeah, well 523 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: that was what I was bringing up when we were 524 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: talking about Kim Jong il Own's daddy, who plainly did 525 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: not dig the job. I mean he dug porn, spoke one, 526 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: I'm one sentence. He was the Clarence Thomas a career 527 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: in the Korean dictators But thanks for coming. But yeah, 528 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 1: oh and obviously really really grooves to the task. He 529 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 1: really enjoys it. How do you end up in Switzerland 530 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 1: for a while and I watch TV and hang out 531 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: with people and you think, you know, starving people is 532 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: just not that nice. I don't understand how that doesn't 533 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: seep into your you know, we've talked about it a 534 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 1: little bit in terms of Hitler, his great man theory 535 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: of history, that and and this is I mean, depending listen, 536 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: I understand them how fraught this is morally speaking. But 537 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: the great men of history whose names we know. Some 538 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 1: of them are from like prehistory, but we know their names. 539 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: They killed a lot of people, a lot of people. 540 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: And the theory among megalomaniac's is he just can't worry 541 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: about that that is necessary to the task, or you know, 542 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: it's often necessary and if it becomes necessary, you just 543 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 1: gotta do it and don't be whining about it. You're 544 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: not cut out to be a great man. So one 545 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 1: looks at it. He says, look, we've got pretty limited resources. 546 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: We don't have enough to feed the hinterlands, the common people. 547 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 1: There's just not enough resources. I've got to keep the 548 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 1: elite together and supporting me, and we're great and we 549 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: will lead to this country into a great you know, 550 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: communists to whatever f um and you spend all day 551 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: one or I wonder if that guy is gonna stick 552 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: a knife in me. Yeah, I tell you what that's 553 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: I wish there was some way. I mean, you almost 554 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: have to have somebody give up dictatorial power, like people 555 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: give up drugs and then talk about, you know, begging 556 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: on the street to get in. How miserable it was. 557 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 1: I would love to hear Kim Jong won speak at 558 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 1: length about with the calculation you have to make. I mean, 559 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 1: for instance, our minister of agriculture, it was clear to 560 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: me that he was taking bribes. But just explain how 561 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 1: that works on a date date basis, How do you 562 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: how do you be dictator? That's gonna be incredibly stressful work, 563 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: you would think, I mean a lot of them hang 564 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: onto the job for a long time though. Yeah, how 565 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: about that? The Kims have been in power longer than 566 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: Soviet Union existed. How about that? How does hereditary fit 567 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: in with communism? And they have to spin that a 568 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: certain playing Well, yeah, that's why they combine communism with 569 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: nationalism with a cult of personality. You know, have been 570 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: the facts to fit the circumstances. But wow, what a 571 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 1: compelling book. I can't wait to dive back into it, 572 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 1: and will it fall in my lifetime? I'd sure like 573 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: to see because it's gonna end sometime. It can't keep 574 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: going forever. I was thinking that same thing because Anna, 575 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 1: and you know you read it, you understand she she 576 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: is sickened by what the Korean people have to put 577 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: up with, And I found myself wishing for her that 578 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: she lives long enough to see, well a positive outcome. 579 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: I mean, if it goes gets even worse, maybe she'd 580 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 1: be better off not seeing it. But you know what 581 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 1: I mean, You just you want to know if that 582 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: this can't go on, This cannot go on, and yet 583 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: it has good stuff. The book is the great successor 584 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 1: extra large