1 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's Andrea Gunning and this is our first 2 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: bonus episode after finishing our season of weekly stories this year. 3 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: Our team has been working hard behind the scenes to 4 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,880 Speaker 1: put every weekly episode together, and the we I'm referencing 5 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: is my amazing production team, our producer Monique Leboard, our 6 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:42,520 Speaker 1: associate producer Kaylin Golden, and our audio engineers Matt Delvecchio 7 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: and Tanner Robbins. For the special bonus episode, I'm joined 8 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,559 Speaker 1: by my producer to answer some of your listener questions. 9 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 2: Hey mo, Hi, dre So fun to come out from 10 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 2: behind the scenes. My god, I am glad to be here, 11 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 2: and I am excited to dive into some listener questions 12 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 2: that we have been receiving all season on Betrayal Weekly. 13 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: I love it. I'm so excited to jump in. I 14 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 1: actually want to start with a question for you. 15 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:10,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, go for it. 16 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: You know, this has been an evolving journey just from 17 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: the format and how we're approaching our interviews, So I 18 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: just wanted to ask, what has it been like. 19 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I've been a podcast producer for eight 20 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 2: years and I've worked on all kinds of shows. I've 21 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 2: produced chat shows, pop culture, news, narrative. But this show 22 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 2: has been a complete standout in my work experience. I 23 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 2: mean from the day that I came on to this team, 24 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 2: y'all have built this framework of doing something really unconventional 25 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 2: and trying to, i think, develop a trauma informed storytelling model, 26 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 2: this collaborative kind of storytelling that we're doing, where we're 27 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 2: working with these survivors, we're giving them a lot of 28 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 2: autonomy in the storytelling process. So getting to join that 29 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 2: in getting to connect with the people that tell their stories, 30 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 2: these people who've been through something really traumatic and are 31 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 2: wanting to share their experiences, has been incredibly rewarding for me. 32 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 2: I think it's an uncommon experience in the audio industry 33 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 2: to see a show work so closely with the storytellers 34 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 2: and to collaborate with them in the way that we do. 35 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:24,239 Speaker 2: I want to ask you about what it has been 36 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 2: like for you to work on the Weekly series, Because 37 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:31,919 Speaker 2: you worked on three seasons, you were really am meshed 38 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 2: in those stories. Yeah, and then this is a totally 39 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 2: new format for you, So I want to talk a 40 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 2: little bit about what your experience has been like in 41 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 2: hosting the weekly series. 42 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's completely different workflow for seasons one through three. 43 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: So Jen's story, Ashley story, Stacy and Tyler's story. I'm 44 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: in these individuals' homes, I'm in their towns, I'm with them, 45 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: Like I just came back from a few weeks ago 46 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: from Colorado Springs preparing for season four, and I was 47 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: with her and her kids and her family and her 48 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:07,639 Speaker 1: best friends over the course of two weeks. And you 49 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: just create this bond and this connection and you really 50 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: understand these individuals' lives. And I don't get that opportunity 51 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: on the weekly series. We don't have the opportunity of 52 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: like eight to ten episodes for us to really take 53 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: our time. We are really boiling down hours and hours 54 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: of interview into a linear timeline, and we want to 55 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: get it right. This is one or two episodes where 56 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: we have to like really do it in a concise 57 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: and thoughtful way, and it's just been a really interesting experience, 58 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: like making sure that we honor everything that's important to 59 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: the individual. 60 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 2: Another thing that has been so special about Betrayal and 61 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 2: working on Betrayal is the community that's developing. I mean, 62 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 2: from the people who write into us into our Gmail, 63 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 2: to the people who share their stories on the podcast. 64 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,040 Speaker 2: They're like a part of making this with us. And 65 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 2: as you know, some of our storytellers choose to receive 66 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 2: listener mail and connect with people directly who want to 67 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 2: share their story and connect with them, you know, over 68 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 2: the phone. So it feels like there is a real 69 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 2: community around this show. 70 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 1: And we're actively seeing it, Like we're seeing individuals who 71 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: have participated that are getting together in real time that 72 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: lived across the country from one another. Yeah, really only 73 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 1: know one other person that they've experienced a betrayal like 74 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: them like it. That is so special and cool and 75 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: we've only been able to really experience that because of 76 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: the weekly series, which is diverse stories in a short 77 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: amount of time, you know. 78 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:40,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay, let's get on to some listener questions. 79 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 2: I want to start with like a rapid fire around 80 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 2: of questions. We've gotten a lot of, Okay, So first off, 81 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 2: the question is why do you mostly feature stories from women? 82 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 2: Why are there so few men on Betrayal Weekly? 83 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: This is one we talk about a lot. It is 84 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: we want to representuals who experience betrayal, like all different 85 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: walks of life, right, because it's not specific to any gender, race, religion. 86 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 1: I don't think that men are being deceived or betrayed less. 87 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: I just think that there's a stigma around that vulnerability 88 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: and like sharing that may relate more to how men 89 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: process that trauma and are willing to share that trauma. 90 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: You know, we find a lot of the stories from 91 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: our own listeners, like our audience who write in, and 92 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: our primary demographic is women, and so a lot of 93 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: that's coming from the people and our communities. So there's 94 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: a little bit of that going on. I'm interested to 95 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: hear what hypothesis you have. 96 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 2: You know, what's interesting is that sometimes we get women 97 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 2: writing in being like I know a man who was betrayed, 98 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 2: but it's not the man writing into us. Men do 99 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 2: write into us, and we have featured a few stories 100 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 2: from men on the weekly series, and some of those 101 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,359 Speaker 2: we had to go looking for, like Ramon and Sosa. 102 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 2: We had to intentionally find him because we didn't want 103 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 2: to create a lineup of exclusively women. Yeah, but at 104 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 2: the same time, there is something going on that's bigger 105 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 2: than just our podcast and the selection for our podcast, 106 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 2: which is I think that maybe there's more shame. Men 107 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 2: have more shame about saying I was deceived, that might 108 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 2: not be as common or as practiced for men. 109 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: This is just like my armchair perspective. But shame is 110 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: a huge deal when it comes to betrayal, like how 111 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: did I not know? How did I not see it coming? 112 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: I should have known better, I should have this, I 113 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: should have that, and I didn't, and I put myself 114 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: into harm's way. And there's a lot of shame and 115 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 1: the reckoning that comes with that. And so I think 116 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: you're dead on not everyone comes forward and we'll always 117 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: have a safe space for men to share their story here. 118 00:06:54,720 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, our next question is do we vet people or 119 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 2: similar question, how do we fact check these stories? 120 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. We go through such a rigorous legal 121 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: process because there's a lot of legal vetting in terms 122 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: of pulling legal support, what's in the public domain, divorce paperwork, 123 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: personal records. It gets filtered through our attorney a few times. 124 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: But before we get to that, you have initial conversations 125 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: at the very beginning. Do you want to talk about that? 126 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, So when we get a story that comes in 127 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 2: through the inbox and we reach out to the person 128 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 2: to talk for what we call a pre interview, which 129 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 2: is just you know, not recorded hearing a little bit 130 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 2: about their story. One of the first things we ask 131 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 2: is for documentation, and it's not that we don't believe them. 132 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 2: In fact, a trauma informed approach to this work is 133 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 2: that we're approaching everyone with belief. However, we do put 134 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 2: all these stories through a rigorous legal process in order 135 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 2: for them to air. We ask our guests for documentation 136 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 2: like divorce records, criminal records, and throughout the process we're 137 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 2: checking those things against the story that they're telling us. 138 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 2: Another part of the vetting process, which is just as 139 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 2: big that we talk about internally, is is this person 140 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 2: ready to tell this story at this time? 141 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's huge, And. 142 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 2: Generally we like to work with people who are a 143 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 2: few years out from their betrayal experience, so they've had 144 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 2: a little bit more time to process it. And so 145 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 2: when I'm first reaching out to someone who's written us 146 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 2: an email and they want to share their story, you know, 147 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 2: in that initial cull, we ask them about their support system, 148 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 2: if they've told this story to other people. And I 149 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 2: don't mean in a formal sense like writing a book, 150 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 2: but I mean like do people in your life, your kids, 151 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 2: your friends, do they know this has happened to you? 152 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 2: Which is not necessarily, you know, mutually exclusive of telling 153 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 2: your story on this show. But I think it's a 154 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 2: sign that this person is comfortable in this story and 155 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 2: having the story associated with who they are. 156 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: Right. Also, when we're working on an episode, we are 157 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: running initial, like broadstroke background information to the extent that 158 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: we can, just to make sure that we can kind 159 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:19,839 Speaker 1: of corroborate certain things in people's story, just like time 160 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: and place, just make sure things are matching. 161 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, we have a pretty conservative in house legal team 162 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 2: that wants to bet everything and make sure that anything 163 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 2: that's potentially a difammatory claim has documentation behind it, and 164 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 2: so that is a burden on us to make sure 165 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 2: we get that documentation in order to run the episodes. Yep. 166 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 2: And something else that this brings up is we hear 167 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:42,199 Speaker 2: from a lot of people who want to write books 168 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:46,079 Speaker 2: or want to tell their story publicly and they don't 169 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 2: have the documentation, or let's say they were so mad 170 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 2: they burned it all, something like that they threw it away. 171 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 2: You know, if someone's listening right now, and if you're 172 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:57,719 Speaker 2: in a situation where you're feeling taken advantage of or 173 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 2: you're feeling like something's going really wrong. Definitely. From where 174 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 2: I am right now producing these stories and getting them 175 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 2: legally vetted, I can say it's super important to keep 176 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 2: those receipts and keep those pieces of paper, those emails, 177 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 2: those interactions, those financial statements. That kind of stuff can 178 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 2: allow you to be able to legally tell your story 179 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 2: in the future. It can't be overstated how important it. 180 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: Is or, as Heather Gay once said, receipts, proof, timeline, screenshots, everything. 181 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. 182 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe this is a good opportunity to talk more 183 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: about our production process. 184 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:35,959 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean a lot of times, in working with 185 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 2: people who've experienced any kind of trauma, there is a way, 186 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 2: a trauma informed way you're supposed to approach what they've experienced. 187 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 2: The sort of three principles are I believe you, it's 188 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 2: not your fault what happened, and you're not alone in 189 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 2: this feeling. So anytime we're interacting with the storytellers, we're 190 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 2: basically trying to take those three principles and adapt them 191 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 2: into a media framework, so setting like an interview or 192 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,559 Speaker 2: in the finished product of the podcast. That's all because 193 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:09,199 Speaker 2: we want to give the storytellers, who are the lifeblood 194 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 2: of this show autonomy and respect throughout the whole process. 195 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 2: A little bit about what this looks like in practice 196 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 2: is that in the pre interview, we explain what the 197 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 2: process is going to look like. We talk to them 198 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 2: about the options of keeping it anonymous or using their name, 199 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 2: which is every storyteller's choice. Of course, if you use 200 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 2: your name, your burden of documentation to provide is higher. 201 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 2: When we're on their pre interview, I encourage everyone to 202 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 2: talk with their family and friends as they're deciding if 203 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 2: they want to tell this story, and we let them 204 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 2: know in that first call that we're going to request 205 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 2: documentation as part of the legal review. And then once 206 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 2: they consider all of that, if they want to participate 207 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 2: and we think that their story is the right for 208 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 2: the show, then we move on with an interview. I 209 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 2: tell everyone basically, you're in control of what you say 210 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 2: starting from here. If I ever ask you anything that 211 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 2: you don't want to answer, you don't have to answer it. 212 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 2: In fact, what I want most is for them to 213 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 2: close their laptop that day feeling like they are proud 214 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 2: of how they represented themselves, and not feeling like they 215 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 2: disclose anything that they're going to stay awake at night 216 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 2: worrying about. Sometimes we do the interview in two sittings, 217 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 2: especially if someone is feeling really emotional. We might break 218 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,559 Speaker 2: and come back another day. In terms of if someone's 219 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 2: ready to tell their story, I don't think of crying 220 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 2: as something that is a bad sign. I'm a crier. 221 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 2: I cry almost every day. 222 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: I am too, So it's fine you are. I cried 223 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 1: ear earlier today. 224 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 2: Great. So it doesn't mean that the person isn't ready 225 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,079 Speaker 2: to tell their story. I really trust them when they 226 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 2: tell me I want to do this. And of course 227 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 2: most of our stories come from people who wrote in 228 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 2: to us, and we are never pushing anyone into telling 229 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 2: a story, or are not in the business of convincing 230 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 2: people to tell these stories. After I do the interviews, 231 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 2: then Dre you come in and we work together with 232 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:04,440 Speaker 2: our associate producer Kaitlin Golden to shape the stories. So 233 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 2: do you want to you want to take it from 234 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 2: here and talk a little bit about what happens once 235 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 2: we start shaping the stories. 236 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, So you do the hours long interviews and then 237 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: you have a really good understanding from meeting with the 238 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: storytellers and having the pre interview of like what's important 239 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: to them, to share and the journey that you want 240 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: to go on. And so you present me and our 241 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: associate producer Caitlin like a ton of material for us 242 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 1: to work with, and we talk about each bite that 243 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: you've taken out of the interview and how do we 244 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: introduce it, like how do we write into it, how 245 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: do we write out of it? And we put it 246 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: in a linear fashion and then we just write around 247 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: it and. 248 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 2: Then once we have the finished product. This is something 249 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 2: I really love about Betrayal Weekly that many mini shows 250 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 2: do not do. We send the episode to the guest 251 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 2: before it's released. Yeah, and we want them to do 252 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 2: a fact checking path, but we also want them to 253 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 2: do a red flag pass if something came out in 254 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 2: the interview that would really make them feel extremely uncomfortable, 255 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 2: would make a material impact in their daily life if 256 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 2: it were to go out and they don't want it 257 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 2: to run. We respect people's feedback on that and we 258 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 2: work with them to change it before it goes out. 259 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 2: Like I'm thinking of the example of Stephanie asod one right, 260 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 2: who was the storyteller in our first two episodes. She 261 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 2: had read out loud some of the captions her husband 262 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 2: or ex husband wrote online under photos of her, and 263 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 2: when she heard it back out loud in her own voice, 264 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 2: she said, I don't want that out there. Yeah, and 265 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 2: so we revised it so that you read it in 266 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 2: your narration and she was okay with that. It wasn't 267 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 2: that she didn't want it to be known. It's that 268 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 2: hearing her own voice say it was so uncomfortable for her, 269 00:14:57,800 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 2: and that was a small fix. It was easy for 270 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 2: us to do. 271 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, you never can really anticipate how certain things occur 272 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: to the storyteller when they hear it back. We're operating 273 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: from a place of these are individuals that have gone 274 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: through a traumatic event and their foundation of trust and 275 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: reality have been either distorted or destroyed, and they're rebuilding, 276 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: and so it's really important for us to operate in 277 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: a safe place of trust and transparency and sharing. That 278 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 1: is a huge part of it. 279 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is something that I don't see in 280 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 2: other podcasts. I've never worked on a show that has 281 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 2: allowed the storyteller to hear the episode before it goes out. 282 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 2: I think there's this idea that if you do that, 283 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 2: then the person's not gonna like it. They're going to 284 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 2: have a bunch of changes, and I have to say 285 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 2: in the thirty two episodes we made that maybe only 286 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 2: happened once or twice, and then we worked through it right, 287 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 2: and so it actually was more rewarding than it was difficult, 288 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 2: because at the end of the day, I can know 289 00:15:57,640 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 2: the day that it goes out that the person who's 290 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 2: story worry this is is happy with the story. 291 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: Right. 292 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 2: It's actually pretty easy to give people a chance to 293 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 2: review the content and just at the very least to 294 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 2: familiarize themselves with it before it goes out and other 295 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 2: people start reaching out to them on Strangers on the 296 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 2: internet hear it because it sounds so different when it's 297 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 2: the episodes all produced than what the raw interviews sounded like. Yeah, 298 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 2: let's take a quick break, and then when we come back, 299 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 2: I have a few more of our most commonly asked 300 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 2: listener questions. All Right, we're back, and I have a 301 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 2: few more of the most commonly asked questions we get. 302 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 2: And then a little later on we are going to 303 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 2: get to questions about specific episodes. 304 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: Okay, all right, Dray. 305 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 2: Another frequently asked question we have is how do you 306 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 2: decide which episodes are two parts and which are only 307 00:16:59,080 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 2: one part? 308 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: This is such a good question for the two parters. 309 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: A lot of them were like, oh wow, this has 310 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: a lot of twists and turns. There's a lot going 311 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 1: on that we don't feel like we could pack in 312 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 1: in under fifty minutes, So let's just approach it like 313 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:13,719 Speaker 1: two parts and it gives us more freedom. 314 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, A lot of times it's dictated by how much 315 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 2: good tape we have, Like with a Hannah, a lot 316 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 2: of good tape, and it's hard to pair that down. 317 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 1: But let's talk about Hannah. Sure, Yeah, because sometimes I 318 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 1: think it's just as much as like the twists in 319 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: the turns of the story of like, you know, understanding 320 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: someone's background, how they met the person that ultimately betrayed them, 321 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 1: the betrayal, and then it's ending and it's aftermath. Sometimes 322 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: there's like these incredible beautiful scenes, like she talks about 323 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: being on the train from DC to Philly, and I 324 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,199 Speaker 1: particularly love the fact that this guy was getting off 325 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: in Philadelphia and she was like crying and she was hysterical, 326 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: and this person was like, I'm sure there's somebody that 327 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: loves you and cares about you, like and she goes, 328 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: people are just the best, and it is this moment 329 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 1: of like, you know, sometimes if we're cutting a lot 330 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: of stuff, you're missing moments where you get to just 331 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: sit with the human experience. I just love that. Yeah, 332 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: and sometimes you just don't want to sacrifice it. And 333 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: that's why. 334 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:16,159 Speaker 2: And I think that's a big part of what our 335 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 2: audience likes about this show is that we're not just 336 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 2: focusing on the true crime and this happened, and that 337 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 2: happened and the body buried in the basement and you know. 338 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 2: But I think a big part of the Betrayal listenership, 339 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 2: they're here because they're getting something out of these real 340 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 2: people's stories. All Right. The last question that we have 341 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 2: gotten a lot of, in fact, probably the most common 342 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 2: question we get in our inbox in our reviews. Do 343 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 2: you know what it's going to be? 344 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: Uh? Ads? 345 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 2: Yes? Why are there so many ads on your podcast? 346 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: I don't know what to saying, guys. I mean, this 347 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: is how we fund the show. And there's like a 348 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: formula that we have with iHeart in terms of like 349 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: ad markers of when you know, if your episode's x 350 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: amount of time long, like forty minutes long, there's ad 351 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 1: breaks and they sell the ad space and we're forever 352 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,360 Speaker 1: grateful because it keeps us in business. So that's why 353 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: we have ads funds the show. 354 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 2: Yes, and the show is free. That's the trade off 355 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 2: with ads. The show is free. But if you love 356 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 2: the show and you don't want to hear ads, you 357 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 2: can subscribe to iHeart True Crime Plus. Sorry, I have 358 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 2: to do a plug. 359 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 1: Good job, mo, you do my job for me. 360 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 2: Thank you. I love podcasts. I listen constantly to podcasts, 361 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,880 Speaker 2: and like with iHeart True Crime Plus, you also get 362 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 2: dozens of other great true crime shows. 363 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: It's three ninety nine a month, and so if you 364 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 1: want an ad free experience, it's not just betrayal. It's 365 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 1: a ton of shows. You know. If that means something 366 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 1: to you, to help support creators, support producers, that's the 367 00:19:59,160 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: way to go. 368 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:00,400 Speaker 3: Yeah. 369 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 2: If you're already a subscriber, thank you. It really makes 370 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 2: a difference. 371 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: So much gratitude for that. 372 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 2: Okay. I want to move on to questions about specific episodes. 373 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: Okay, and I'm going to do a little. 374 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:14,919 Speaker 2: Recap of each episode because I know it's been a 375 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 2: few months since listeners have heard some of these stories. 376 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 2: So our first question is about the Torah episode. Torah 377 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 2: was episode number eight. She was a history professor. She 378 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 2: met a student named Aaron in her class, an adult student. 379 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 2: He was a veteran. He told her that he had 380 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 2: had his foot blown off in an explosion while he 381 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 2: was serving in Afghanistan, and that he wore a prosthetic, 382 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 2: but his death began the process of her learning that 383 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 2: the amputation was a lie, that he actually had both 384 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 2: of his feet. So a listener wrote into us and said, 385 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 2: how could anyone live with a person and have a 386 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 2: sexual relationship with them for three years and never see 387 00:20:59,520 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 2: their foot. 388 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: I have a lot of definions on this great I mean, 389 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: I don't judge Dora, but it's fair to just understand 390 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 1: like the mechanics of it. But one of the things 391 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:14,360 Speaker 1: that Tora shared in her episode is she had very 392 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 1: specific boundaries around her intimacy and her physical intimacy. And 393 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: she also shared that he was really embarrassed by this 394 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 1: part of his body. He always wore a sock and 395 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: he covered it up. And I think just you know, 396 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: we talked about this a lot. Like perpetrators, they'll find 397 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 1: the right person, the people that are understanding and trusting. 398 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: You know, it works because she honored his boundaries physically, 399 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: you know, when you trust someone, when you're coming from 400 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: a place of believing someone, It starts there. And he 401 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: was embarrassed by it, and he wanted to cover it up. 402 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: And she's already coming from a place of respecting intimate 403 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: boundaries and physical boundaries because she has her own I 404 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,639 Speaker 1: can see it. It didn't seem crazy to me. It didn't. 405 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, there are the practical elements, like he 406 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 2: not only wore a sock, but he also wore a 407 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 2: hard plastic brace underneath the sock, so when he walked 408 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 2: it sounded like a prosthetic. And I mean he always 409 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 2: used a different shower that he said was easier for 410 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 2: him to get into. So there are logistics of how 411 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 2: he actually pulled off the deception. But then there's I 412 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 2: think a deeper level too that it's more important to 413 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 2: understand than the logistics of how he covered this up. 414 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 2: Is that he said it was an injury from a 415 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 2: traumatic experience, an explosion that killed one of his friends 416 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 2: in the war, which right didn't happen. And there is 417 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,679 Speaker 2: a larger pattern about how these people who are manipulating 418 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 2: others often work. There's this research psychologist doctor Jennifer Fried, 419 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:53,880 Speaker 2: who we talk a lot about, yeah, and her work 420 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 2: is foundational to understanding betrayal trauma. She coined the term 421 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 2: betrayal trauma. She also coined this acronym DARVO DARVO, which 422 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 2: is a manipulation technique and it stands for deny attack 423 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,639 Speaker 2: and reverse victim and offender. It's super powerful and effective. 424 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 2: We see this tactic all the time in the world, 425 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 2: but in a case like Torah, Aaron was claiming that 426 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 2: he had this very sympathetic and very traumatic victim narrative 427 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 2: of how he lost his foot, and so oftentimes people 428 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 2: who are doing darvo are basically flipping the script of 429 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 2: who the victim is, and their victim narrative is compelling 430 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,959 Speaker 2: and is powerful and emotional, right, and it's the kind 431 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 2: of thing that no sympathetic reasonable person would say, I 432 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 2: don't believe you that you had a injury in the war, 433 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 2: like you don't want to push someone on that. And 434 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 2: the victim narratives can be so effective. I mean, we 435 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 2: saw it also with Tammy McCrary in that episode where 436 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 2: her husband was a fake doctor. He had said that 437 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 2: he had two children and the reason that Timmy could 438 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 2: never talk to his parents is that his children and 439 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,920 Speaker 2: his parents all died in a car accident. Right, That's 440 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 2: not the kind of story you are going to force 441 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 2: someone you love to go into details about. You know, 442 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,640 Speaker 2: it's a very effective manipulation tool. Yeah, okay. Our next 443 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 2: question about a specific episode is about John Yelle's story. 444 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 2: John Yelle, just as a reminder for listeners, she was 445 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 2: married to a man named Chad. They had a big family. 446 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:37,120 Speaker 2: Chad was a financial advisor. She did all the homeschooling 447 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 2: and all the labor in the house, and he did 448 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 2: basically the money making. But over time he's behaving strangely. 449 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 2: Weird things are happening, And one night when she wakes 450 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 2: up in the middle of the night, he's not there 451 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 2: and the car is gone. But you know, when she 452 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 2: tries to press him on it, he just gets mad 453 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 2: at her. Then years pass and nothing big happens. You know, 454 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,640 Speaker 2: things are a little weird. Then he's pulled away from 455 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 2: her and sleeping oftentimes in his office in the basement. 456 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 2: And then one night she wakes up to the FBI 457 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 2: and the state police having raided her house because it 458 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 2: turns out Chad has kidnapped two of their family friends, 459 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 2: an elderly couple that they actually went to church with, 460 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 2: and he had put them in a dungeon that he 461 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,719 Speaker 2: had built. He's not actually a financial advisor. He was 462 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 2: planning on having them go into a bank and wire 463 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 2: him a check for multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars, 464 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 2: and thankfully the FBI was called in very quickly, and 465 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 2: then they found the couple alive. So a listener wrote 466 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 2: to us and said, Chad leaves his home regularly at night, 467 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 2: even on vacation. But why to go, where to do? What? 468 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 2: Is there no other info on this disturbing habit other 469 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:54,120 Speaker 2: than that it happened. 470 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: I wish we had these answers. I mean, Danielle's a 471 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: mom of six that's homeschooling and managing all of those 472 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 1: children every day and is just focused on keeping the 473 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: family afloat and is like just trying to keep her 474 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:18,679 Speaker 1: head above water. I don't think she even knows the 475 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,640 Speaker 1: extent of what he was doing. I genuinely I don't 476 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: get the sense that she knows the full extent. 477 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,680 Speaker 2: No, she doesn't, Like, she doesn't know where he actually 478 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 2: was that night. And even if she were to ask 479 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 2: him after the fact, you know, call him in jail. 480 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,360 Speaker 2: Which she does not communicate with him, but like, even 481 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:38,959 Speaker 2: if she were to ask him, I don't think she 482 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 2: believed she would get an honest answer, right. But you know, 483 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 2: I think this question of how did someone not know 484 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 2: comes up a lot in our inbox and in our reviews, 485 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,680 Speaker 2: and we often hear about these scenarios where something happens 486 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 2: like I wake up in the night and my partner's 487 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 2: out here and it's off, but they don't know how 488 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 2: off it really is. And it's important to remember that 489 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 2: in these episodes, we're hearing the whole story told at once. 490 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 2: We're hearing all the red flags strung together in a row. 491 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 1: It's true, but of course. 492 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 2: This was happening. You know, there were years exactly yours 493 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 2: that were totally fine, and they took family vacations and 494 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 2: nothing went wrong. 495 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:23,159 Speaker 1: I mean, before we even started producing season one, my 496 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: producer for the Narrative limited run series, Carrie Hartman, and 497 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 1: I were reading Talking to Strangers by Malcolm Gladwell and 498 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: we went to go see him speak at the University 499 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania and we were both really interested in this 500 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: whole concept of default truth, which is a concept that 501 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: you're more likely to believe someone is telling you the 502 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: truth than assuming that they're lying to you. And then, 503 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: especially when it comes to strangers, people are generally bad 504 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,360 Speaker 1: at detecting when someone's lying to you. And I think 505 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: sometimes we often worry about how did you not know? 506 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,120 Speaker 1: Then the reality of this person did a bad thing. 507 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 1: There are bad people, people like Donnielle's husband that are 508 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: doing bad things, and I think your assumption is my 509 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: husband isn't capable of kidnapping to elderly people from our 510 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: church and putting them in a dungeon, Like we're not 511 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:23,399 Speaker 1: necessarily wired to do that line of thinking. Even if 512 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 1: your husband is out late, it's like maybe worst case scenario, 513 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: he's blowing off seam in the car and driving around, 514 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 1: and you're not going to my husband's kidnapping somebody, Like, 515 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,919 Speaker 1: let's really talk about the reality here. That's not just 516 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: more often than not, you're rationalizing, and you're bringing in 517 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: your historical information of the person that you think that 518 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: they are based on a lifetime of experience and just evidence, 519 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: and then you're making assumptions. And so it was important 520 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: for us when we did this show, especially when we 521 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: started Jens season, to really explore this because these stories 522 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: are born out of the scenarios where people didn't see it, 523 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: people didn't see red flags. 524 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think default truth is really important, and I 525 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 2: think people want to believe that they are good at 526 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 2: detecting liars because it makes makes you feel safe, Yes, 527 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 2: makes you feel safe. That feeling of I would have 528 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 2: known is a self soothing feeling of it couldn't happen 529 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 2: to me because I can tell, and I can tell 530 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 2: when I hear this story. But we're producing this story, 531 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 2: and if you're living it, it's a different experience, right. Scary, 532 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 2: it's really scary. Yeah, all right, moving on to another question. 533 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 2: We got about a specific episode, and it's the episode 534 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 2: with doctor Carrie. Carrie macvoy. She is a clinical psychologist. 535 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 2: Her husband of twenty five years, Brad, dies of cancer 536 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 2: and she's devastated. She's experiencing this grief trying to find 537 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 2: a way to move on. She decides she wants to 538 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 2: throw herself back into dating. She meets a guy online 539 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 2: who we in the episode call Caesar, and he is 540 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 2: a Mexican American dual citizen. He brings her into this 541 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 2: world essentially of like Mexican real estate development, and she 542 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 2: puts a lot of Brad's life insurance money into developing 543 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 2: a real estate company with Caesar, they get married, all 544 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 2: of these things happen. There are so many deceptions. You 545 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 2: have to go listen to both the parts to really 546 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 2: get the full picture. But we got quite a lot 547 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 2: of comments on this episode that there was one specific 548 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 2: thing listeners were seeing that we did not say explicitly, 549 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 2: but they wanted to point out. And I think you 550 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 2: know what I am referring to. 551 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: I know exactly what you're talking about. During Doctor carry 552 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 1: McAvoy's episode, there's a part in her story where she's 553 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 1: getting really sick. She's really ill, and the listeners heard it, 554 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: picked up on it and noted something very specif. I 555 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: don't even know if I can mention it here, just 556 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 1: for legal reasons, right. 557 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 2: So let me just play the section from the episode 558 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:08,719 Speaker 2: that we're referring to. 559 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 1: And then she began noticing other symptoms. 560 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 4: I have really severe diarrhea, real strange diarrhea that I'd 561 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 4: never seen before. It's water, it's clear water. It frightens 562 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 4: me because I've never seen this before. And I had 563 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 4: white lines like you hit your fingernails as a hammer. 564 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 4: I was searching for what causes white lines across all 565 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 4: the fingernails. They're called Niese lines. 566 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: And it only got worse. 567 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 4: My toenails were falling off, and my yearine was now 568 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 4: dark like tea and frothing. 569 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 1: And like we said earlier in the episode, we go 570 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: through a rigorous legal process and all we could report 571 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: on was what she was experiencing, what her symptoms were, 572 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: But we couldn't necessarily name what the audience is basically 573 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: flirting with because we didn't have any evidence to show. 574 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 1: We didn't have medical records, Like to say that that 575 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 1: happened is defamatory, and there are certain things like that 576 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 1: like we just cannot do. I mean, he was never arrested. 577 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 1: And so for doctor carry McAvoy's episode, you know, she 578 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 1: thought that something was happening to her. Our audience thought that, 579 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: but we couldn't specifically name it for legal reasons. 580 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. That comes up in many of our episodes, 581 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 2: almost a half of them. We have a situation where 582 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 2: there's something we want to include, but for legal reasons, 583 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 2: we can't. Okay, Dre, I have one more question that 584 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 2: is about a specific episode, and this one is something 585 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 2: that we heard from quite a few listeners, and I 586 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 2: think there's a few things we need to say. So 587 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 2: this comes from the Chelsea episode. The Chelsea episode that 588 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 2: was one of our. 589 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: Most intense ones, really intense. 590 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 2: M She had been dating a guy named James. 591 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: And James was having issues with who she was talking to, 592 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 1: even at work, and so it was seeming like the 593 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: walls were kind of closing in, like he was really 594 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 1: controlling every aspect of her communication with people, and there 595 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 1: was this moment where things really escalated. She took his phone. 596 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 1: She saw things in a hidden folder, very similar to 597 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 1: Ashley from season two, and she saw what she would 598 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 1: assume is illegal material on the phone that she felt 599 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: like was see Sam child sexual abuse material. She found 600 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 1: a photo. I don't really want to go into too 601 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 1: much detail, but it was disturbing to her and she 602 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: couldn't get the picture out of her head, and she 603 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: felt like there was something familiar to this photo, and 604 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 1: she like woke up in the middle of the night, 605 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 1: so I know who these children are. James had friends 606 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 1: who had children and it could be their daughters. 607 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, she did a Facebook deep dive. She was never 608 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 2: one hundred percent sure, but she was feeling like it 609 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 2: probably was and that's ultimately what led her to go 610 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 2: to the police and report it. So let me share 611 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 2: one of the questions that we got after the Chelsea episode. 612 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 2: This is from a listener who said in episode sixteen 613 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 2: about Chelsea, she mentions discovering that she thought she knew 614 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 2: who the girl in the picture was. Was the girl 615 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 2: found and taken out of the home. So this is 616 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 2: just one that's representative of I want to say ten 617 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 2: questions we got to the same effect, which is what 618 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 2: happened to this little girl? Is she safe? Is she okay? 619 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 2: I wish we had the answer to that, and I 620 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 2: wish that it was yes, she's safe. 621 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,319 Speaker 1: There's so much we don't know about the photo. First 622 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,280 Speaker 1: and foremost, Yeah, this could be a photo he found 623 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: on social media and cropped, you know, because they were 624 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 1: wearing bathing suits. So we don't really know. What we 625 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,360 Speaker 1: do know, and what we discussed with Chelsea is that 626 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: when she ultimately went to law enforcement, she reported the 627 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 1: photo and let them know this is who I think 628 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 1: could be the family who has children, and she left 629 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: it in their hands. And that was something that we 630 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,719 Speaker 1: didn't include in the show, which looking back on it, 631 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:33,279 Speaker 1: we should have. 632 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,320 Speaker 2: You're definitely right that we should have included that information 633 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,400 Speaker 2: that she did tell the police who she thought the 634 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:43,319 Speaker 2: child was. I mean, the day the episode came out, 635 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 2: we were starting to get these questions in from listeners, 636 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 2: and we frantically went back to the script and we 637 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 2: realized immediately, like, oh my god, this one piece of 638 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 2: tape didn't make the cut, and that would have clarified 639 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 2: so much. And we had been so focused on Chelsea's 640 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 2: experience and Chelsea's story that when we ended up recounting 641 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,280 Speaker 2: that moment when she finally goes to the police, here's 642 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 2: the piece of tape that we did include in the episode. 643 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 3: I met with the detective and we had a three 644 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,759 Speaker 3: hour recorded interview. I showed him everything, told them the 645 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 3: same story that I'm telling you now. He was so validating, 646 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,839 Speaker 3: and he said he told me, he's like, this isn't contraband, 647 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,880 Speaker 3: but it is absolutely wrong, and you were doing absolutely 648 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 3: the right thing by reporting it. But I want to 649 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 3: manage your expectations. There are things I can try to do, 650 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 3: but this by itself isn't enough. And I was like, 651 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 3: I know, that's why it's taken me so long to 652 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 3: get here. 653 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 2: But then there was this one critical piece of information 654 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 2: and tape that we should have put in the episode. 655 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 2: It's in that same scene where she's reporting to the 656 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 2: police officer finally reporting James, and this is the piece 657 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 2: of tape we should have clue in this episode. 658 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 3: But I told him, I'm like, this is who I 659 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 3: think this child is. And he took all that down 660 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:11,879 Speaker 3: and he said he would look into it. 661 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:15,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, that would have been that would have helped a 662 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 1: lot of people. Yes, when hearing the episode, definitely lesson 663 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 1: learned column, Lesson learned column. 664 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 2: And I know a lot of people who wrote in 665 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:28,320 Speaker 2: about this episode are just concerned and they want something 666 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 2: more to be done. They want to make sure the 667 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 2: girl is okay. And so did Chelsea, you know, and 668 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:38,120 Speaker 2: some idea of her, like going directly to James or 669 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 2: going directly to those friends' house, like that is not 670 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 2: a safe option, That is physically not a safe option 671 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 2: for her. 672 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 1: And I know that, you know, Chelsea was fearful of 673 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 1: retaliation from James. He threatened her with legal action. 674 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 2: He also threatened that he would release nude photos of 675 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 2: her that she had consentually sent him and that he 676 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 2: said he had deleted, but he had kept. He threatened 677 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 2: to send those to her colleagues. So she was feeling 678 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 2: pretty scared. 679 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 1: Of this person, right, and so I think she felt 680 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 1: safest letting law enforcement do what they needed to do, 681 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,440 Speaker 1: and she did the right thing by reporting it. 682 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:27,360 Speaker 2: She did everything she could have while also keeping herself safe. Yeah, 683 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 2: all right, those are all of the questions I have. 684 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,359 Speaker 1: You're great. It's always so good to see and hear 685 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,799 Speaker 1: feedback from the listeners, no matter what it looks like, good, bad, 686 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 1: the ugly, like, we really do want to know, you know, 687 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 1: especially if they're like gaps in his story where people 688 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 1: were asking, we either have an answer or you just 689 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: taught us something that we didn't think about. So we 690 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 1: really appreciate it. 691 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, we love engaging with listeners. We love it when 692 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:57,799 Speaker 2: people send in questions and they send in commentary. One 693 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,680 Speaker 2: of my favorite emails we got this year with someone 694 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:02,840 Speaker 2: who wrote in with feedback and then I'm just gonna 695 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 2: read from I think one of the most salient points 696 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 2: quote one pain point from you and listening is when 697 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 2: you focus on survivors who quote bound Love Again. Donielle's 698 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,279 Speaker 2: story is case in point. Then she goes on to 699 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,719 Speaker 2: say it frustrates me when others tell me I'll find 700 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,520 Speaker 2: love again or I should date again. I want to 701 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 2: heal and build my self esteem, and I want to 702 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 2: hear more stories about people who come back from this 703 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,680 Speaker 2: and build a business, or go find an incredible and 704 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 2: satisfying hobby, start traveling, or anything other than jump into 705 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,880 Speaker 2: another relationship and hope for the best with a new person. 706 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 2: I hope you'll keep this in mind when making future episodes. 707 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:47,719 Speaker 1: I've thought about that feedback from that listener every episode 708 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:52,440 Speaker 1: since me too, And we can't necessarily editorialize people's life 709 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:54,800 Speaker 1: path or where they are when we meet them. Yeah, 710 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,880 Speaker 1: but what I really thought was fascinating is being careful 711 00:39:57,920 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 1: about the language. 712 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,239 Speaker 2: Yes, and I think she was writing into us to 713 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,040 Speaker 2: bring our attention to language, like, you know, so and 714 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,759 Speaker 2: so found love again, and it's like, well, what do 715 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:11,759 Speaker 2: you call that first relationship love? 716 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,319 Speaker 1: Using the right language is really important. So I'm very 717 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 1: grateful for that person to write in. 718 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:19,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. All this to say in bringing up this email 719 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 2: we got is that you know, we're real people making 720 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:26,359 Speaker 2: this show, and we are grappling with these big questions 721 00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,799 Speaker 2: every day, and we love hearing from listeners who have 722 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:33,080 Speaker 2: you know, thoughtful and constructive commentary about the way we 723 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,120 Speaker 2: present these stories. I think it makes the show better. 724 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 2: So we're finished with these weekly episodes for the next 725 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 2: few months. We are going to be back in August 726 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:48,960 Speaker 2: with new weekly episodes. What is coming up next on 727 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:50,319 Speaker 2: the Feed? Do you want to talk about it? Drey? 728 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,759 Speaker 1: I can't believe we've wrapped the weekly series. I think 729 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,800 Speaker 1: it's been really successful and I absolutely love this show. 730 00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:03,440 Speaker 1: We air season five of Betrayal the limited run on 731 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 1: May twenty second. It's about a woman and her family 732 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,839 Speaker 1: out of Colorado Springs. You know, we're gonna hear that 733 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 1: story over eight to ten weeks, and then shortly after 734 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 1: that we'll go back into the weekly series, where it's 735 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: a different story every week or every other week, but 736 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,680 Speaker 1: in between, So from now through May twenty second, we 737 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,160 Speaker 1: have a ton of really exciting bonus material that we've 738 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,960 Speaker 1: been working on. You've been working really hard on mo. 739 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,520 Speaker 1: We have a great bonus episode with a woman named 740 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:39,560 Speaker 1: doctor Kate Truett, and she explains the neuroscience of storytelling 741 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 1: and how storytelling can be healing after experiencing trauma. We 742 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:48,879 Speaker 1: have listener essays that people have submitted based on our 743 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,880 Speaker 1: prompt which is resilient in the face of devastating betrayal, 744 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:57,240 Speaker 1: and we have a woman named Andrea Dunlop her story. 745 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 1: It's kind of like a regular weekly episode, but a 746 00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:04,799 Speaker 1: little bit shorter to kind of satiate our listeners. So 747 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 1: I'm really excited to see what people think of the 748 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,360 Speaker 1: content that I'll be coming out in the next few weeks. 749 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,200 Speaker 2: Well, Dre, I'm gonna scurry back behind the curtain. 750 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,880 Speaker 1: I'm so glad everyone got to meet you though. You're 751 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:20,640 Speaker 1: the nuts and bolts of this and so it's really 752 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,279 Speaker 1: great for the listeners to hear the people that make 753 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:25,520 Speaker 1: the show work, and you do great work. 754 00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,480 Speaker 2: Mo, so thank you, Thanks Dray. I feel honored to 755 00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:31,160 Speaker 2: get to work with a team that is this thoughtful 756 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:36,840 Speaker 2: and mission driven and talented, and also to get to 757 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 2: work with individuals who are trusting us with some of 758 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,400 Speaker 2: the worst experiences of their life and trusting us to 759 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,080 Speaker 2: tell those with respect and care. It's really an honor. 760 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:50,520 Speaker 2: Oh all right, bye bye. 761 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:55,280 Speaker 5: If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal 762 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,200 Speaker 5: team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email 763 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 5: us at Betrayal Pod at emailed that's Betrayal Pod. At 764 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:04,720 Speaker 5: gmail dot com. 765 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:06,280 Speaker 1: We're grateful for your support. 766 00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 5: One way to show support is by subscribing to our 767 00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:11,840 Speaker 5: show on Apple Podcasts and don't forget to rate and 768 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:12,560 Speaker 5: review Betrayal. 769 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,879 Speaker 1: Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank 770 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:17,520 Speaker 1: you to all of our listeners. 771 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 5: Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of 772 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,959 Speaker 5: Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show 773 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:28,680 Speaker 5: is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted 774 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:32,359 Speaker 5: and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced by 775 00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:37,279 Speaker 5: Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are 776 00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:41,120 Speaker 5: Kristin Mercury and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Ali 777 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:45,680 Speaker 5: Perry and Jessica Krincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio, 778 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:51,200 Speaker 5: Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayal's theme composed by 779 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:55,600 Speaker 5: Oliver Bains. Music library provided by Mob Music. 780 00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:57,680 Speaker 1: And For more podcasts from iHeart 781 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:06,640 Speaker 5: Visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast wherever you get your podcasts.