WEBVTT - Unlocking the Power of Flexible Work 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.160 This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg 0:00:04.240 --> 0:00:08.200 Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. Well, one thing 0:00:08.240 --> 0:00:10.000 we love trying to figure out is what the world 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:11.360 is going to look like on the other side of 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:13.760 this pandemic and when we're actually going to get there. 0:00:13.920 --> 0:00:15.280 There are a lot of people trying to figure that 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:18.079 out right now. Airbnb said last month it's gonna allow 0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:22.120 its employees to work from anywhere. We learned yesterday Goldman 0:00:22.160 --> 0:00:25.080 Sachs is giving unlimited vacations to senior employees. And then 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:27.560 just today, a few hours ago, we learned from Mark 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:30.120 German that Apple is delaying it's three day per week 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:32.600 return to office plant as a result to an uptick 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:36.000 in COVID cases. Somebody who spends a lot of time 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:38.640 thinking about all of this the future of work is 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:42.040 Sheila supermanny In. She's co founder and vice president of 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:45.720 the Future Forum. It's a research consortium founded by Slack 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:48.239 that focuses on the future of work. She's also the 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:50.560 co author of the new book How the Future Works, 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:54.440 leading flexible teams to do the best work of their lives. Sheila, 0:00:54.480 --> 0:00:56.600 It's good to have you. How are you. Thank you 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:58.680 for having me. I am doing great. The first thing 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:00.440 I noticed you're joining us via zoom is that it 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:03.200 looks like you're joining us from a home office rather 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:06.800 than from a corporate office. Is that right? Yes? This 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:10.520 this background, This is not a I'm calling in for 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:13.520 my basement. Okay, So how does how does one and 0:01:13.600 --> 0:01:17.960 how does an executive lead a team in an environment 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:20.120 like this, in a world like this to perform the 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:23.760 best when they're so distributed? Yes? So one thing I 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:26.520 just want to set the context on is so much 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:30.199 of the conversation about flexibility is about location. It's about 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:34.560 where people But what people find more important is actually 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:37.400 when they work. What we're seeing from our research a 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:42.240 Future Forum is that employees want flexibility in their schedules 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:44.800 as well. And so the last couple of years, I've 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:49.360 really marked a shift in terms of what people's expectations 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:52.800 for work truly are. And also to your question, how 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:56.320 executives can lead in this new world? Um, A big 0:01:56.320 --> 0:01:58.320 piece of advice I give executives is that you need 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:02.040 to lead with trust. So much a performance measurement prior 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:05.240 to the pandemic was this person the first in and 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:07.880 the last to lead so they're worthy of a promotion, 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:12.239 and there often wasn't conversation about the results, the outcomes, 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:15.280 the impact that that person was making on the organization. 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:17.960 And so this has been a massive shift for leaders 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:20.440 to think more about how do you lead a distributed team, 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:23.520 how do you lead with trust, and ultimately, how do 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:26.239 you make work work for all types of people rather 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:28.919 than the select few who benefited prior to the pandemic. 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:31.639 I love that you brought up the trust factor because 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:34.600 one of the inventions of the pandemic. I have to say, 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:37.360 a friend of mine actually introduces to me tim Um 0:02:37.600 --> 0:02:39.880 and Sheila, you'll find this funny as well. But the 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:42.799 software that like moves your mouth for you if you're 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:46.880 ever away from your desk, no idea what you're talking about. 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:49.359 Oh my gosh, Sheila, have you heard about this? Yes, 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:51.160 And we write about this in the book. It's it's 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:55.359 monitoring software to ensure that your employees are working when 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:57.799 they say that they're when you're saying working in air 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:01.560 quotes right now, yeah, I am saying, but just you know, 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:04.200 it's just to show that your your online while you're 0:03:04.480 --> 0:03:07.000 actually you know, getting a bite to eat or whatever. 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:09.200 And basically just moves your cursor for you, so your 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:11.920 online for for for a hot second. Um. A friend 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:13.399 of mine told me this and she's like, I'll share 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:14.480 it with you. And I was like, well, no need, 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:16.320 I'm in the office there, they'll see if I'm if 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:18.440 I'm not there, But sheilla, I have to ask you. 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:24.079 You talk about trust so outside of the mouth software apparently, Um, 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:26.000 how do you build that kind of trust in an 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:29.520 environment where so many people are saying the only way 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:33.760 to learn is shoulder to shoulder, face to face. M Yeah, 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:37.400 there there are many outdated ways of working that leaders 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:40.280 have been increasingly relying on. It's being shoulder to shoulder, 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:42.840 face to face, working between the hours of nine to five, 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:46.600 being in the office five days a week, and so 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:49.000 much of the shift that that leaders need to make 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:53.360 is yes, trust and trusting people to do their work 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:56.120 on their terms. And one key way to leaders can 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:58.920 do that is actually by focusing on the outcomes, the 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:03.160 results that people are producing, rather than this person responded 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:06.080 to my email in five seconds, so I know that 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:09.320 they are dedicated employee. We've seen a lot of CEO 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:11.440 say that people who don't want to come into the 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:15.000 office they lack hustle or they lack motivation, or commutes 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:17.359 are not that big of a deal. But over the 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:20.560 last two years, we've seen productivity measures rise. People have 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:24.000 actually been able to exceed what people what leaders star 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:26.159 was ever possible um and they were able to do 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:31.040 this overnight. And this is thanks to collaboration technology. This 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:34.160 is thanks to the way that we communicate with one another. 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:37.840 So leaders need to show what good looks like. They 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:40.720 need to set expectations on what some of the goals are, 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:42.919 and they need to empower their employees to do it 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:45.440 on their terms, rather than continuing to expect them to 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:49.440 adhere to really outdated norms of professionalism. We're speaking right 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:52.599 now to Sheila Supermanny, and she's the co founder and 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:56.560 vice president of Future Forum. It's a research consortium that's 0:04:56.560 --> 0:04:58.880 founded by Slack that focuses on the future of work. 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:01.000 She's also the co author of the new book it's 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:04.280 called How the Future Works, Leading flexible teams to do 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:06.560 the best work of their lives. When we come back, 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:09.039 I want to hear about case studies when it comes 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:12.200 to what's working right now. Considering that this is all 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:16.160 an experiment that's really still relatively new, we're gonna continue 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:20.599 our conversation with Sheila Sumrani in in just a few minutes. 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:23.159 We're going to get back and do a really interesting 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:26.800 conversation here with Sheila. Sheila's Supermannian excuse me, co founder 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:29.200 and vice president of Future Forum and the co author 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:32.240 of How the Future Works, leading flexible teams to do 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:34.960 the best work of their lives. She joins us on 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:39.000 zoom from Oakland, California. Sheila, we were just talking about 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:41.680 Apple delaying a plan to have staff in the office 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:44.599 three days a week, and they specified which three days. 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:48.440 They said, Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday. Can you explain the 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:53.320 logic behind that. I can't explain the logic behind what 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:56.320 Apple's decision was in terms of those specific days, but 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:59.760 I can't explain some of the backlash we're scene with 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:04.480 the cards to top down mandates across entire companies. Um 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:06.400 In our book, we talk a lot about the importance 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:09.440 of team level agreements, where teams get together and say 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:12.159 this is how we want to work together. These are 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:14.239 the days we want to come into the office, either 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:18.000 quarterly or monthly or weekly, and these are the hours 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:20.279 where we want to collaborate with one another. And the 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:23.880 beauty of team level agreements is that it's about the team. 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:27.440 And with the top down mandates that we're seeing across companies, 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:31.000 not just intact, but across the board. The challenge there 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:33.520 is that you're assuming that work is one size fits all, 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:36.840 that everybody's work is similar. But the work of an 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:40.239 engineering team is fundamentally different than a work of a marketer. 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:44.240 And you're also assuming that everybody is located, um within 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:48.599 driving distance of headquarters or of the nearest office. So 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:51.120 this is an opportunity for leaders to say, all right, 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:55.040 we're gonna build our principles, the purpose behind our flexible work. 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:59.160 We're gonna encourage some behavioral guard girls, but we're gonna 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:02.080 empower our team. Leaders are managers to figure out what 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:06.000 works best for them um. And by doing that, you're 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:08.400 enabling teams to do their best work on their terms, 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:11.000 rather than saying this is the only way that people 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:13.360 can work. Sheila, When I see news like you know, 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:18.040 Apple requiring their workers to come back three days a week, 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:20.120 you know, putting that off for now, but we know 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:22.760 it's inevitable, at least that's what it sounds like from 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:25.800 the company. Uh. And then I see companies like Airbnb 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:30.400 Branchski coming out and saying you guys can work from anywhere. 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:33.880 No granted, okay with an Airbnb. Obviously, the company's talking 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:36.160 it's book right there, because if it's saying that it 0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:38.440 can be successful with people working from anywhere, then that's 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:41.600 good for its business because then people, well, you know, 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:44.920 use airbnb s to go live anywhere and work from anywhere. 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:48.440 But from a competitive standpoint, how does the company like 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:51.280 Apple compete with a company like Airbnb when it comes 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:54.480 to attracting and retaining talent. What we're seeing from the 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:58.040 research is that flexibility matters. It's it's second only behind 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:02.960 compensation when determined in job satisfaction. And what's more interesting 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:06.800 in the context of the Great Resignation or the Great Rethink, 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:10.560 is how I like to frame it is that employees 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:13.720 who are not happy with their current levels of flexibility, 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:16.480 both in terms of where they work and when they work, 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:19.120 are open to looking for a new job in the 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:24.480 next year. So it's really critical for for companies, regardless 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:28.400 of size and brand and compensation to think about flexibility. 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:31.160 And I said, as I said earlier, it's about trust. 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:34.000 Employees want to be trusted and they want to have 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:36.880 the choice in terms of working on their terms. That's 0:08:36.880 --> 0:08:38.880 going to be really important as we move forward into 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:41.280 this new way of working. Sheila has got to ask 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:44.920 about the role of women here, because I believe there 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:48.480 was a stat out that when you had so much 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:52.360 of the labor force essentially pull out in terms of participation, 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:56.079 women took the brunt of that because of childcare issues. Um. 0:08:56.280 --> 0:08:59.280 And I think that that goes to serve or goes 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:01.440 to kind of point out so many issues that have 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:03.520 to have to do with kind of the role that 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:05.920 women play. But as they get more and more back 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:08.320 into the workforce, you see childcare becoming a bigger and 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:11.439 bigger issue. I remember a conversation and Tim backed me 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:14.040 up on this order for for lack of better term, Uh, 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:16.440 there was a conversation ages ago I remember from Chryl 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:20.760 Sandberg and Emily Chang, a very own from Bloomberg to Technology, 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:24.079 asked her when you do kind of remote working. Sheryl 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:27.400 Sandberg was very vocal about wanting to put her kids 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:30.160 to sleep and um, you know, taking time off between 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:32.080 five and seven to just spend time with their family. 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:34.320 And Emily asked her, well, do you log back on 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:36.520 after they go to sleep at nine ten o'clock and 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:39.839 she goes, of course we do. Of course I do. Um. 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:42.760 And so Sheila have to put that that scenario to 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:45.720 you because you you made a very strong point about 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:49.600 trusting the work gets done and trusting Um. The flexible 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:52.240 hours are in fact used. But does it still make 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:56.040 sense to offer say a late night like nine ten 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:58.959 o'clock for for people who do still have to do 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:03.760 child's care for example. Yes, there's a lot in there. Um. 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:08.240 What we're seeing from our research is that of working 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:11.160 moms want flexibility and where they work, and that's the 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:15.160 highest since we began surveying two years ago. Um, there's 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:17.679 a lot in terms of flexibility and when you work. 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:22.080 And an example that we've adopted is from Dropbox. They've 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:25.440 incuraged their teams to have core team working hours, So 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:28.959 that's chunks in any given day where people come together 0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:33.240 to collaborate, to meet to discuss specific topics, and outside 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:36.200 of those working hours you're able to do what you 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:38.839 need to do. For my team, our core team working 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:42.720 hours are nine am to one pm Monday through Thursday. 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:45.200 Outside of that time, I dropped my kids off at 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:48.040 school and sometimes chaperon field trips. I picked them up 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:51.840 and it's been able to provide a balance that I 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:54.920 didn't have prior to the pandemic, when I was running 0:10:54.960 --> 0:10:57.600 to commute to the city every single day and coming 0:10:57.640 --> 0:11:00.560 home exhausted. NICKI dinner for everybody and put them to bed. 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:06.719 It sounds great, seriously, of like of you know, you 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:08.440 put the consident and then you have to go back 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:12.520 to work. That's not always the case. Um. And the 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:15.520 beauty of a non linear work day or flexibility and 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:18.160 when you work is that people have choice as to 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:21.280 one works best for them. For some people it's it's 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:23.440 in the morning, some people it's the middle of the day. 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:26.280 But at least people have a choice in terms of 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:28.560 when they're able to do their best focused work. Is 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:31.800 this I mean, I'm trying to think of what's permanent 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:35.800 and what's not, Sheila, but it really seems like this 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:38.960 is a fundamental shift in the way we work and 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:43.000 it's gonna stick. What do you think? Absolutely, I think 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:45.840 that we're not going back to how things were um 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:49.920 back and now leaders need to adapt, They need to 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:52.720 just they need to be intentional in terms of building 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:55.559 a new way of working that meets employees needs. What 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:58.440 is that dangerous? And I'm gonna put my contrarian hat 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:00.560 on here for a second, because you hear the stories 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:04.360 from even China, for example, the closed loop system where 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:08.360 they're spending thirty six hours NonStop working sleeping in um 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:11.280 you know, the factories or wherever that they work, and 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:14.200 they're able to say that this is a more efficient system. 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:17.439 So I have to ask you, if you do have flexibility, 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:22.000 is efficiency then at risk. I think a big piece 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:24.839 of this is also like what the guardrails that leaders 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:28.560 are setting from the top. You can't say, hey, we're flexible, 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:30.520 just do what you need to do. You need to 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:33.520 have some level of principles as well as what are 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:36.400 the behavioral guard grails that we're looking to encourage. And 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:38.280 a big piece of that is to ensure that people 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:40.760 don't burn out or they're not working around the PLoP, 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:44.360 to show that they're always online, are there, committed to 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:48.120 their jobs, and with figuring out what flexibility of site 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:51.480 for specific organizations, leaders need to set that tone from 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:54.120 the top. Like at times Black as an example, we said, 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:55.720 like you can't come back into the office five days 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:57.800 a week if you're a senior leader within the organization 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:02.839 UM Also, you scheduled scent. It's kind of like it's 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:05.560 kind of like what are what Matt Boyle wrote about 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:07.719 when it comes to leading by example, when it comes 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:11.800 down limited vacation. Sheila Subramannian, co founder and vice president 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:14.720 the Future Forum, also the co author of How the 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:17.480 Future Works, leading flexible teams to do the best work 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:18.640 of their lives.