WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 23 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:04.400 Hey there, I'm jess Mi Lady Confetti here. Hi, I'm 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.040 Psyche and I am Hey Shady Lady, and welcome to 0:00:07.080 --> 0:00:10.440 Boss Level podcast, where we feature conversations with gas tube 0:00:10.520 --> 0:00:12.880 leveled up, bringing an x fie boost to the table. 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:16.200 We pick the brains of professionals, creators and bosses and 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:19.200 industries across the globe to help our listeners achieve their 0:00:19.239 --> 0:00:22.560 own boss level. We are not just creating a podcast, 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:26.279 but a gamified, an engaged community. Listen to Boss Level 0:00:26.320 --> 0:00:29.160 on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:33.920 you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, it's Bobby Brown. You 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:37.640 might know me as the makeup artist beauty expert, but 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:42.120 today I'm here with a brand new podcast, The Important Things. 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:45.080 On this new podcast, I'll be joined by my co 0:00:45.240 --> 0:00:50.120 host and dear friend, international best selling author and Julie Kumar. 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:52.879 Each week, Bobby and I are looking for ways we 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:57.160 can all learn to live more authentic, gratifying lives. You 0:00:57.200 --> 0:01:00.560 can look forward to learning from our amazing guests, including 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:05.039 the incomparable Gloria Steinhum charity founder, Christy Turlington Burns, and 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:08.840 many many more. Listen to the Important Things starting on 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:12.200 March three, on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast 0:01:12.360 --> 0:01:20.040 or wherever you get your podcasts. Mama, what does the 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:30.119 chicken say? Uh? What draft draft really? Giraft draw. You're 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:31.960 not gonna get it all right. Just make sure you 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:34.040 nail the big stuff, like making sure your kids are 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:36.360 buckled correctly in the right seat for their agent's eyes. 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:40.479 Get it right visits n h S a dot gov 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:43.400 slash the Right Seat brought to you by the National 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:46.960 Highway Traffic Safety Administration in the AD Council. Hey, everybody, 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:48.920 Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let you know. 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:52.680 This is a compilation episode. So every episode of the 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:56.440 week that just happened is here in one convenient and 0:01:56.560 --> 0:01:59.760 with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to 0:01:59.840 --> 0:02:02.440 a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:04.440 to the episodes every day this week, there's gonna be 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:06.600 nothing new here for you, but you can make your 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:11.080 own decisions. Hey, everybody, Uh, Robert Evans here, along with 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:14.799 Garrison and Chris Um, we are pre empting the episode 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:17.960 that will be airing after this because um of events 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:21.720 that happened in Portland, Oregon this weekend. On Saturday the 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:27.080 nineteen there was a weekly Racial Justice March UM. The 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:29.840 March again it occurred. It's occurred every week for a 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:33.079 couple of years now. UM. It is instensibly led by 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:38.280 the mother of a Patrick Kimmins, who is a Portland 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:40.600 a young black Portland man who was killed by the 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:43.640 police a couple of years ago. UM, this is a 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:46.600 regular thing. As a general rule, you'll see a lot 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:48.359 of folks in the right talking about this march is 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:52.639 like an Antifa gathering. UM. This almost never gets any 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:56.480 coverage whatsoever because as a general rule, UM, it's it's 0:02:56.720 --> 0:03:00.280 just a march where people, you know, protest police by lens. 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:04.359 It's not something that that tends to to draw much attention, um, 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:09.360 even within Portland's UM. This Saturday, a person who lived 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:11.760 in the neighborhood where people were assembling for the march 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:16.640 UM left their home confronted a group of women who 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:21.560 were acting as corkers. Corking is a job at protests. 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:24.400 It's a traffic safety thing. It's people on a mix 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:27.600 of usually bikes, motorcycle scooters every now and you see 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:30.079 like a one wheel and their job is to kind 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:32.840 of route traffic around the march in order to keep 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:35.760 people from getting hit by cars. Um, it is a 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:41.080 safety thing. UM. These folks were confronted by this person. 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:43.920 Reports on the ground that have been covered in local 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:48.080 news from people who were there say that he started 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:51.600 out yelling at them, calling them terrorists and UM, according 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:53.120 to one person who was on the scene, within about 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:58.720 ninety seconds began firing. Uh. He hit and killed one woman, UM, 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:03.760 and he wounded for others. UM. And he himself was 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:07.960 shot by a protester who was nearby, who was, to 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:12.800 all everything we know so far, legally open carrying a rifle. UM. 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:16.479 He is the shooter. UM is in critical condition in 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:19.800 the hospital. UM. One of the people who was doing 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:23.320 traffic security that night is dead. UM. I believe at 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:25.120 least one is still in the hospital. The others have 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:28.680 been released. Uh. That's that's the the actual like, that's 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:30.880 those are the facts of the situation as they're known. 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:35.440 The protester who returned fire quickly afterwards turned themselves and 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:38.760 their rifle into the police. UM. You know, the police 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:40.400 to the stuff that they do in these instances, and 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:45.400 then released the person who had responded defensively to the shooting. 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:49.200 And that's where we are right now. UM. Portland police 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:51.960 have been very cag and saying anything about this. They 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:56.120 have framed it as a clash between a homeowner and protesters. Um. 0:04:56.240 --> 0:04:57.960 One thing we can say, based on where this person 0:04:58.080 --> 0:04:59.720 came out of it does not appear that they were 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:02.680 at home owner. Looks like they left a would have 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:05.400 been like a rental thing. Not that that particularly matters, 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:07.640 but it's interesting the framing with the police are choosing 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:11.919 to use here. UM. And yeah, there's there's fairly little 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:15.200 information as of right now. The name of the shooter 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:19.200 has not been released by the police. UM. Neither has 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:22.480 the name of the protester who responded UM to the gunfire. 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:25.680 But we do know, you know a number of the 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:28.240 people who were hit, We know the person who has deceased. 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:33.719 Avoid kind of spreading anything more specific than that until 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:36.440 there's there's evidence. There's not yet video of this, although 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:38.000 one of the people who was there says they have 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:41.080 a go pro that was taken by the police that 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:43.680 may have something. I don't know the extent to which 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:47.040 we will get that information. Again, the police have been 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:51.200 acting to uh kind of make this look like a 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:55.120 clash rather than what the evidence that like. Reporters at 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:57.840 OPB in the Portland Mercury and even the Times have 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:01.240 have found the interviews they've conducted, Um, it seems fair 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:05.280 to say that this was a mass shooting, um that 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:08.240 was stopped by a protester as opposed to what I 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:12.440 would call a clash. Yes, but that's that It's obvious 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:14.720 Portland police aren't going to want that narrative to come 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:17.800 out very telling Lee. The mayor of Portland, Ted Wheeler, 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:21.320 issued a statement where he talked about the shooting as 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:23.520 a piece of the city's ongoing gun crime, did not 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:25.840 mention the woman who was killed, did not mention the injured, 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:29.800 but expressed his sympathy with the police for being so tired. Um, 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:34.440 So you know that's Portland's Yeah, I mean it's pretty 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:36.760 sick and like you shouldn't like it's not like dismissing 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:39.159 it by saying it's Portland's saying like this is like no, 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:41.440 there's there's been growing rather right from the city and 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:44.560 people the past few years that have basically been encouraging 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:48.000 something like this to happen. Um, And now that it has, 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:50.679 it is also pretty sick looking at different like media 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:53.560 framing and police framing and talking about it's a homeowner 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:55.400 and how it was like, yeah, it was like a clash, 0:06:55.560 --> 0:07:00.080 not like an outright attack on people. Um. Yeah, so 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:03.960 it's it's it's bad, it's it's pretty gross. But what 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:07.280 we can do right now is support the people who 0:07:07.440 --> 0:07:11.440 were there. Yeah, they go fund me for medical expences 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:15.240 and you know, mental health effects in the Yeah, because 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:19.040 just a bit, some of the wounded were themselves plugging 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:21.680 up the bullet holes of other wounded while they had 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:23.560 also been shot. Because it was a lot of the 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:27.520 people doubled as medics or had some sort of medical training. Um, 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:30.080 there were medics who were like threatened by police when 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:33.120 they arrived on scene for not being willing to stop 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:36.520 providing um pressure to a gunshot wound. Like a bunch 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:39.400 of ugly stuff happened. There's a mix of ugly stuff 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:41.920 and like stuff that seems ugly but it's pretty normal. 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:44.640 Like the ambulance did not move in immediately, which obviously 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:48.320 people on scene were very angry about. That is standard 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:51.080 everywhere for like ambulances at active shootings, and it's just 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:54.760 I mean, it's not pleasant, but it's also like they're 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:57.120 not ever acting from as much information as the people 0:07:57.120 --> 0:07:59.679 who were there maybe have. I'm not I'm not gonna 0:07:59.720 --> 0:08:01.640 blame you know e, M T S or whatnot for 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:04.000 following s OP in this situation. I will blame the 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:07.560 police for their responses to stuff like this obviously, and 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:12.000 the fact that, um, you know, it's it's unlikely that 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:15.520 a satisfying police investigation will be conducted. That said, it 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:18.400 does seem like we already, based on the early reporting 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:22.560 that exists from again a number of different news organizations, 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:24.480 number of different local journalists, that we have a pretty 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:28.200 good idea of the basics of what happened. UM. Obviously, 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:32.520 more will come out in addition to you know, nothing 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:36.719 but respect to the medics who responded. UM. I think 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:40.880 it's worth acknowledging that the protester who shot the shooter 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:45.120 UM seems to have from the evidence we have handled 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:48.280 themselves as close to perfectly as you can in a 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:55.320 defensive shooting. UM. They stopped the threat, UM, they went 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:57.840 to the police, they turned in the rifle. They did not. 0:08:58.200 --> 0:08:59.920 And there's a number of reasons for this, including the 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:02.680 act that, like the last time there was a shooting 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:05.839 that was involved a left wing demonstrator, that person was 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:09.480 hunted down and killed by U. S. Marshals. UM but 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:12.480 it also I think helps when it comes to the 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:15.480 legal stuff that's going to wash out on this the investigation. 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:19.920 It really helps that this person dotted their eyes and 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:22.120 crossed their ties to make it very clear that this 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:27.920 was a UM A very like legal self defense situation. Obviously, 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:30.080 I think a lot of the folks who participate in 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:32.120 these things don't particularly care about the law one way 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:34.960 or the other. But in terms of how other people 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:38.600 see what has happened and what the fallout to this is, 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:44.600 and maybe the degree to which people properly put some 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:46.439 blame on the city for this, I think it is 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:49.960 helpful that the person who responded UM with their rifle 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:53.559 to the shooting conducted themselves so carefully. So, I mean, 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:56.160 I have I have a lot of respect for everybody 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:58.080 on the ground. A lot of hard decisions had to 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:02.200 be made UM, and it's seems like in a a 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:05.400 the worst case scenario situation, the people who were on 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:09.120 the ground handled themselves UM with a tremendous amount of 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:14.160 thoughtfulness and encourage. I think that's everything. Yeah, I don't 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:16.880 think there's not not much else to say at this 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:20.400 moment right now, too safe, be careful, and again the 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:23.280 go fund me. Just type type go fund me stand 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:26.120 with Portland into Google. It will take you to the 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:28.520 go fund me um and you can help folks out there. 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:38.120 H Hello, welcome to it could happen here. I'm Garrison, 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:41.880 and today we're talking about two of my favorite things, 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:47.120 which is unions and coffee. UM. Joining me as a 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:51.600 usual is Chris and Sophie. What do you guys think 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:56.760 about about coffee and unions and the combination thereof big 0:10:56.760 --> 0:10:59.760 on unions like that, like like making them, like having 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:04.199 them not big on coffee. It's too bitter. I can't 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:10.280 do it. Unbelievable. Union's great coffee, great, Chris bad, Chris 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:15.160 gets the wall. It's the ultimate canceling. That is canceling 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:18.559 more intense. We are coming down all the coffee issue. 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:22.199 I don't ever tell prop that, don't ever talk pop 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:25.760 you don't like coffee. I worry. UM and anyway to 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:31.520 join us to discuss coffee and unions is a union 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:36.640 organizer and uh also someone with a podcast, so that's fun. 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:42.160 Uh but Kayleie Schuler, Hello, Hello, thank you so much 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:45.160 for having me. You know what they say about union 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:49.360 iced coffee, that's better. It tastes better. That's yeah, that 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:51.480 is that is that is what I have heard much 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:54.400 better quality. That is true. Maybe that's the problem that 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:58.840 Chris has been having. Yeah, there are no unions here. Yeah, 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:02.480 that's the that's the thing. That's a Chris jumped to 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:06.160 jump to conclusions. But you failed, you failed to consider 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:11.040 the uh, the coffee question. Um. Anyway, we're gonna be 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:15.560 talking about unions and coffee and Starbucks today because there's 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:20.160 been a massive wave of Starbucks uh location unionizations around 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:23.280 the country, and I like to start by kind of 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:27.760 discussing the origin of this like wave of unionization efforts 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:34.240 all across the states. Yeah. So, um, you know, I'll 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:37.960 just stay right off the bat like, um, legalities, logistics, 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:41.400 the nitty gritty is still not my forte and all 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:43.679 of this. Um. So, I might not do the best 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:46.600 job explaining it, but I'm going to do my best, um, 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:50.800 and to get into the origin story of the whole movement. 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:52.839 I'm just going to get into my origin story a 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:56.760 little bit um with this effort. So. Um, I started 0:12:56.760 --> 0:13:01.600 working at Starbucks last year, and not long after I 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:05.280 was approached by uh my fellow partner, my friend Tyler 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:08.280 de Geer, and he's also one of our committee members 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:10.920 here and he was like, hey, did you hear about 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:14.640 what has happened in Buffalo? And as you guys probably know, 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:19.760 Buffalo was the first to unionize UM, and so he 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:22.199 was really excited about it. I was like, yeah, sounds cool. 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:25.160 Probably not my thing though, UM, and he was like, no, 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:28.680 it's it is like, just let's talk about it. I 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:31.040 was like, all right, fine, we talked about it. I 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:33.400 was like, Oh, this makes so much sense. We should 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:36.800 definitely do this. So um, as far as I know, 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:40.640 this uh started in Buffalo. They reached out to Workers 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:43.880 United because they knew that this was something they needed 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:48.120 and wanted UM. And then when they successful unionized, I mean, 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:52.960 it just sparked so much inspiration across the country and 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:59.200 we hopped on really quick. UM. Other locations in Boston 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:03.520 also hoped done not long after, and uh yeah, it 0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:08.200 kind of spread like wildfire. Yeah, it's been wonderful to 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:13.120 watch the kind of wave of of of attempts and 0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:15.880 in some cases, like in a lot of cases, like 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:20.200 successful attempts just kind of take you know, just go 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:23.720 all like it's how fast They've been happening in so 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:28.120 many different places around around the country. Um, I'd like 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:30.440 to talk I like to talk about like why the 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:35.200 Starbucks unionization kind of effort is so important, Like why 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:38.640 why this is? Like of course, like unions are obviously 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:42.880 like generally a net good, but like why specifically is 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:46.520 it's is it important to unionize these Starbucks locations? Like 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:50.200 what types of like um issues is the unization trying 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:52.960 to kind of solve and give you know, workers better 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:58.560 conditions at these at these stores and cafes. So this 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:01.000 great question, and for so I want to start by 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:05.520 saying Starbucks is a great place to work. I say 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:09.480 that all the time. I reap the benefits. There are benefits, 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:14.280 good ones. They pay minimum wage or whatever, Like the 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:18.880 pay is decent, We have benefits. It's really a lot 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:21.160 of people who work at our Starbucks day it's one 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:24.600 of the better jobs they've had, and we deserve a 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:28.880 union for It's I mean really in my brain, it's 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:32.360 kind of akin to insurance. Right, you have it in 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.600 case you need it if an emergency happens, you don't 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:38.360 have to pay the whole um e er bill out 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:42.600 of pocket. You've got some coverage coming from somewhere, right that, 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.080 at least in my mind, is what this union is 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:49.560 for UM. That being said, we also just want to 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:52.760 obviously democratize our workplace. We want to have a spot 0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:56.360 at the bargaining table because we you know, we have HR, 0:15:56.600 --> 0:16:00.960 we have people to go to. But unions our partners 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:05.840 looking out for partners and that's it. Starbucks looks out 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:11.280 for partners and profit. You know, it's a business, it's 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:14.480 a huge business. UM. So this would just give us 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:18.840 UM a stronger sense of empowerment. And uh again, I 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:21.240 really think of it kind of like insurance. It's just 0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:27.120 us making sure we're taken care of at all times. Yeah, 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:29.840 And what what type of kind of you know, whenever 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:32.680 the discussion of union's kind of starts at workplaces, there's 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:35.400 always like an element of like secrecy and you know, 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:38.800 being worried about you know, different types of suppression. So 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:42.240 what types of kind of things have people been doing 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:44.480 when the when the union is like trying to get 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:47.160 trying to get trying to get off the ground to organize, 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:50.960 like like are people using like signal chats? Like what 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:54.160 what is what is like in this in these stores? 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:56.880 How is how are we trying to get more people 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:00.680 to like be comfortable with this idea and get like 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:06.000 get started with the organizing process. That's a really good question. 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:09.600 And we're still doing that work all the time. That 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:15.800 work doesn't really end, especially because um, it's commonly known 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:18.199 now so I don't feel as scared to say it. 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:21.880 But there are being there is union busting happening. It's 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:26.080 happening all the time. UM. And it's scary and it's intimidating, 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:30.879 and it's meant to be and it's effective, you know. So, Um, 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:34.639 we have a majority yes vote in my store. I 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:38.679 already know that. But it also takes upkeep. It takes maintenance. UM. 0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:41.359 It takes checking in with people and you know, for 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:43.720 my money, checking in and saying, hey, how are you 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:46.000 feeling about this? Are you doing okay? Like I know 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:48.600 that this is scary. I know that you're hearing things 0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:51.760 like do you have any questions? Um. It takes us 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:57.080 doing our due diligence and researching the things that they're saying. Um. 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:00.640 And yeah, I mean it's it's kind a constant thing 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:03.160 as far as like technically how it's done. I mean 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:07.440 lots of group chats, just like way too many group 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:11.600 chats that that has been most of my experience with 0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:15.720 most most political organizing, A general is just way way 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:19.320 too many group chats. Yeah, in terms of like what 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:23.800 Starbucks is doing to start their like union busting response, 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:27.879 is this website that they have launched. Yeah, I I 0:18:27.920 --> 0:18:31.119 know you've I know you've tweeted about this, uh about 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:34.440 this site, So I would love to love to discuss it. Yeah. 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:36.880 I mean I just went off. I didn't really think 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:38.959 much of it, you know, I just I saw it 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:43.040 on there and just was like, this is lies. Um. 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:48.520 I mean, well, for one, I'm trying to remember everything 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:51.040 I've read and tweeted. But the one that's coming to 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:55.600 mind is when they say this may affect your relationship 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:59.720 with your store manager and it may make it difficult 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:05.600 for to me, that is that may depends entirely on 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:10.600 how much UM union busting Starbucks wants to do. If 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:14.320 you want to tell our store managers that this will 0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:16.959 negatively impact our relationship with them, if that's how you 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:21.199 want to frame it, then yeah, I probably will. UM. 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:25.200 If you if you want to make it more difficult 0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:30.600 by not negotiating the contract easily with us, um, yeah, 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:35.080 then that might happen. It's not that's not a union problem. 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:38.080 That's a Starbucks problem that they are framing as a 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:42.720 union problem. Um, yeah, I can't. What were the other 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:48.200 things that I I would just like to also explain, 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:50.200 like what the site is and what it's like trying 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:55.840 to do. Oh sure, yeah, I mean it's it's UM's 0:19:55.960 --> 0:20:00.720 union investing. It's uh, it's giving it's given partners the 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:03.560 facts that they need to know, you know, like it's 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:06.440 it's we want to make sure that you are informed 0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:09.400 before you vote. Know, Um, that's what that is. Yeah, 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:13.680 it's this like sleekily designed page that has a list 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:19.160 of facts about about organizing and all the reasons why 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:23.080 it's going to negatively represent, negatively affect your relationship with 0:20:23.160 --> 0:20:28.520 the Starbucks corporation. Oh, this was one of the points said, Um, 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:30.800 the union may not negotiate for some things you are 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:33.920 hoping for, and some things you value now might go away. 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:39.800 That is so ridiculous. That's a threat. Yeah, that's a 0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:42.959 threat that your well being will be changed, Like we 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:46.120 might not negotiate this contract very nicely with you. That 0:20:47.000 --> 0:20:50.679 the union is us. They love to talk about the 0:20:50.720 --> 0:20:53.400 third party and oh, your your store manager is gonna 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:55.800 have to work with a steward. The steward is going 0:20:55.840 --> 0:20:58.920 to be someone who already works in the store. Yes, 0:20:59.880 --> 0:21:03.680 the steward is us, The union is us. Why would 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:08.960 we negotiate a contract that doesn't benefit us. That's so silly, 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:13.920 It's it's it's it's very typical union busting kind of behavior. 0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:16.840 And if you know, if they can just if this 0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:19.680 type of propagandic you know, can just convince a few 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:22.480 people and and and scare and scare only only a 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:24.240 couple of the people, that will be enough to kind 0:21:24.240 --> 0:21:27.560 of cause division and shutdown efforts in the store. Right, 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:29.720 So that's that's that's all that their goal is is 0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:32.440 to prevent you know, at least one more store from 0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:34.840 not doing it. That's like, as long as they do that, 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:38.760 then it's then then then it's like successful. Um, you know, 0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:41.760 based on how many people work at an individual, individual store, 0:21:42.119 --> 0:21:44.800 that's not entirely unlikely, right is it? Will? You know 0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:49.720 it will? Like you you, union busting efforts do work 0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:52.240 in a lot of cases, and that's why they still 0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:57.160 do them. Like that's absolutely absolutely yeah, And that's why 0:21:57.200 --> 0:22:01.080 it's it's really important for um, you know, if there 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:04.760 are any partners listening to this, UM and partners by 0:22:04.800 --> 0:22:07.760 the way, is what you know we call ourselves at Starbucks. UM. 0:22:10.480 --> 0:22:16.000 The the social aspect of this within your store, the 0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:19.040 checking in with your partners and seeing how they're feeling 0:22:19.040 --> 0:22:22.400 about it, and having UM as many face to face 0:22:22.480 --> 0:22:25.399 conversations as you can have, and really really sticking by 0:22:25.400 --> 0:22:28.840 each other is really important because yeah, like I said, 0:22:28.880 --> 0:22:35.640 these UM tactics are tried and true, they're effective, they're intimidating, UM, 0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:39.040 and so you have to really support each other through 0:22:39.080 --> 0:22:41.879 that and keep reminding each other like, no, there's a 0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:44.320 reason we're doing this this, this is actually still a 0:22:44.320 --> 0:22:48.119 good thing, you know, because on top of our jobs, 0:22:48.280 --> 0:22:50.679 and then a lot of partners are in school or 0:22:50.720 --> 0:22:53.719 they have families, like we already have a lot going on, 0:22:53.920 --> 0:22:56.560 and then we have to go into work and be 0:22:56.680 --> 0:23:01.920 reminded that our desire for a union is not valuable 0:23:02.040 --> 0:23:05.919 to Starbucks, and so they're going to make things harder 0:23:06.040 --> 0:23:10.439 by doing all the things they're doing. UM. You have 0:23:10.520 --> 0:23:14.440 to really really be there for each other through this process. Yeah, 0:23:14.560 --> 0:23:17.400 I mean, that's you know, solidarity and one of the 0:23:17.480 --> 0:23:20.040 key of the key tenants of this type of you know, 0:23:20.040 --> 0:23:23.879 the type of organizing. I know, Chris is a pretty 0:23:23.880 --> 0:23:28.879 big union appreciator. I mean, I I like unions, but 0:23:28.880 --> 0:23:33.600 but Chris, Chris really really really really enjoy So I'm 0:23:33.600 --> 0:23:37.320 wondering if you, if you have anything, he likes them 0:23:37.359 --> 0:23:40.840 so much, he'll he'll even like unionized coffee. He'll be 0:23:40.880 --> 0:23:45.760 like this coffee still it will it will good work, Chris. 0:23:45.800 --> 0:23:48.480 Some of the some of the there's some sorts in 0:23:48.600 --> 0:23:50.879 Chicago that are unionizing, and I'm like, hmmm, maybe it 0:23:50.920 --> 0:23:53.320 should maybe should check them out. Yeah, you should at 0:23:53.400 --> 0:23:55.280 least at least check about and say like hi and 0:23:55.400 --> 0:23:59.440 be like, yeah, great, what's a great thing to do. Um, 0:24:00.000 --> 0:24:02.359 definitely go to those stores, go up to the counter 0:24:03.000 --> 0:24:06.360 and offer you, um, ordering your coffee, and then ask 0:24:06.440 --> 0:24:10.920 them to write like unions strong or we love unions 0:24:11.040 --> 0:24:14.720 as your name. Um, because when the baristas are making 0:24:14.720 --> 0:24:17.240 the coffee and they still like see that sticker come through, 0:24:17.320 --> 0:24:20.879 it's we really love that, Chris. They have great tea 0:24:20.960 --> 0:24:27.119 there too, ice cream tea. It's really good, or the 0:24:27.200 --> 0:24:33.080 chide like, listen, I'm saying information though about like yeah 0:24:33.359 --> 0:24:36.280 we have there's finally a store that's like somewhat in 0:24:36.280 --> 0:24:39.120 near Los Angeles where I am that that is announced 0:24:39.119 --> 0:24:42.480 that they're unionizing, which is exciting, Like, Okay, California, way 0:24:42.480 --> 0:24:46.159 to join the party late, but you know, it's it's cool, 0:24:46.960 --> 0:24:52.879 go ahead. Yeah. One thing I'm interested in is how 0:24:53.080 --> 0:24:57.320 how big is the shop, Like how many people are 0:24:57.640 --> 0:25:00.119 sort of like, well, I'm not not in the like, 0:25:00.160 --> 0:25:03.600 just how many people there like could potentially join the union. 0:25:05.320 --> 0:25:09.760 I mean, anyone could. I think we have about twenty. 0:25:09.920 --> 0:25:11.840 I could be so wrong, but I think we have 0:25:11.920 --> 0:25:16.480 around twenty partners in our store right now. Um, and yeah, 0:25:16.560 --> 0:25:20.800 any well, yeah, just about anybody could join that not 0:25:20.840 --> 0:25:25.200 anyone who's salaried. Yeah, okay, but I mean that seems 0:25:25.200 --> 0:25:27.720 that seems pretty common across all the different stories. Is 0:25:27.760 --> 0:25:32.200 around that it's around like twenty union eligible people per location. 0:25:32.280 --> 0:25:35.280 Seems roughly accurate based on the stuff I've seen from 0:25:35.320 --> 0:25:38.679 you know, Seattle to Philadelphia to Boston to Buffalo too, 0:25:38.840 --> 0:25:42.760 you know, all all places in between. And yeah, so 0:25:42.840 --> 0:25:46.360 part part of part of like the actual more organizational 0:25:46.400 --> 0:25:50.200 structure is a linked to work as United. Yes, part 0:25:50.200 --> 0:25:54.440 of the part of the Service Employees International Union UM 0:25:54.560 --> 0:25:58.560 affiliate kind of a family of unions UM who's kind 0:25:58.560 --> 0:26:01.360 of led the lad the campaign or you know, has 0:26:01.400 --> 0:26:05.040 been part of the campaign UM to unionize the you know, 0:26:05.160 --> 0:26:08.560 thousands of locations through the States and yeah, I think 0:26:08.680 --> 0:26:13.480 around like eighty locations, including two of the company's flagship 0:26:13.560 --> 0:26:17.119 ones inside Seattle and New York have have joined this 0:26:17.119 --> 0:26:19.760 this effort. And it does seem like every day there's 0:26:20.080 --> 0:26:22.880 like more stores popping up. Who are who are who 0:26:22.880 --> 0:26:26.119 are saying yeah, this is a good idea. This is 0:26:27.000 --> 0:26:29.600 whether it be to you know, be like, yeah, some 0:26:29.720 --> 0:26:32.479 of our equipment is old, and it's like, you know, 0:26:32.640 --> 0:26:36.160 it causes like keep burns because it's not like maintenance properly, 0:26:36.680 --> 0:26:39.160 or being like yeah, there's a lot of like sexual 0:26:39.200 --> 0:26:42.840 harassment caused by like some like some like patrons that 0:26:42.880 --> 0:26:46.919 never gets addressed by management UM and or you know 0:26:47.200 --> 0:26:48.920 saying like yeah, I may be deserved to be paid 0:26:48.920 --> 0:26:52.440 more than fifteen dollars an hour UM. With rent being 0:26:52.840 --> 0:26:54.800 you know, as high as as high as it is, 0:26:55.119 --> 0:26:57.399 maybe we should be paying over twenty bucks an hour. 0:26:57.640 --> 0:27:00.159 I don't know how everybody else is doing, but my 0:27:00.240 --> 0:27:05.760 rent situation is interesting. So rent has been ballooning in 0:27:06.000 --> 0:27:08.920 recent in recent months, even it's been it's been really 0:27:08.960 --> 0:27:10.720 going up, which I mean, I'm sure we'll talk about 0:27:10.760 --> 0:27:13.240 it at some point on the show here. But yeah, 0:27:13.280 --> 0:27:14.840 like there's a lot of there's a lot of issues 0:27:14.840 --> 0:27:18.000 that as being like, yeah, maybe people should be paid more, 0:27:18.080 --> 0:27:20.320 people should be at the bargaining table. There's a lot 0:27:20.320 --> 0:27:22.560 of things to address to make it a safer workplace, 0:27:22.640 --> 0:27:26.240 to make it a workplace where you're more respected. Um. 0:27:26.440 --> 0:27:31.119 And it's uh, it's really nice to see people saying, yeah, 0:27:31.320 --> 0:27:33.520 I'm not gonna put up with the city more and 0:27:33.640 --> 0:27:35.480 we can do something about it, because like there are 0:27:35.520 --> 0:27:38.600 mechanisms to to do this, right, that's why it's happening. 0:27:39.040 --> 0:27:42.760 So that's that's very uh, very exciting to see is 0:27:42.800 --> 0:27:46.639 taking place. It really is, and it you know, you 0:27:46.680 --> 0:27:49.080 make a lot of great points and bring up a 0:27:49.119 --> 0:27:53.280 lot of the benefits of having a union, and its 0:27:53.320 --> 0:27:58.760 just like it just surprises me how anti union Starbucks 0:27:58.840 --> 0:28:04.520 is is period um, because it's just it's like, I 0:28:04.520 --> 0:28:06.720 don't know, you, Yeah, you paint such a beautiful picture, 0:28:06.760 --> 0:28:09.920 because it is a beautiful picture to have autonomy and um, 0:28:10.160 --> 0:28:15.040 respect and empowerment in the workplace. You know, they they 0:28:15.080 --> 0:28:18.080 train us to work through the lens of humanity, you know, 0:28:18.560 --> 0:28:22.480 by their words, and uh, it's pretty humane to let 0:28:22.560 --> 0:28:25.280 people have a say, a real stay in the workplace, 0:28:25.400 --> 0:28:28.800 you know. Yeah, I think it kind of exposes that 0:28:28.880 --> 0:28:36.800 type of you know, pretty pretty corporate language, that formative. Yeah, exactly. It's, um, 0:28:37.000 --> 0:28:39.640 I am interested in like the other like kind of 0:28:39.720 --> 0:28:43.120 union busting or soft union busting kind of stuff going 0:28:43.160 --> 0:28:45.640 on even like before this website in terms of how 0:28:45.760 --> 0:28:50.280 like manage like how like management has been responding, um, 0:28:50.320 --> 0:28:52.360 and how more like like what like what like the 0:28:52.400 --> 0:28:55.880 local responses to wind stores start talking about this. Yeah. 0:28:55.920 --> 0:28:59.160 And and another follow up to that is, I noticed 0:28:59.200 --> 0:29:02.520 that COVID was my on this on this website. Is 0:29:02.560 --> 0:29:06.160 that being brought up within union busting at all? Or 0:29:06.240 --> 0:29:08.800 is that brought I just it was like a huge 0:29:08.840 --> 0:29:11.320 red flag for me that they used like, well, we 0:29:11.400 --> 0:29:17.640 helped you during COVID we were there for you, which 0:29:17.720 --> 0:29:21.840 really did not. That's like that's like, that's like that's 0:29:21.880 --> 0:29:26.040 like abusive terminology. That is pretty manipulative to be like 0:29:26.160 --> 0:29:30.200 we we helped you during a pandemic. It's it's like, well, yes, 0:29:31.240 --> 0:29:33.960 as you should, because yeah, you're the place where I 0:29:34.000 --> 0:29:36.560 was employed. I give something to you, you give something 0:29:36.600 --> 0:29:39.760 to me. And yeah, and as I Twitter ranted in 0:29:39.800 --> 0:29:43.479 the comment, you know, like with peace and love. We 0:29:43.560 --> 0:29:46.160 had to beg to get our cafe close, you know, 0:29:46.320 --> 0:29:50.120 like we we like it wasn't like we just uh 0:29:50.320 --> 0:29:52.440 cases rose and they came in said, hey guys, we're 0:29:52.440 --> 0:29:55.320 gonna close it. Like we had we were calling and 0:29:55.920 --> 0:30:00.200 um making a stink and I mean we were talking 0:30:00.200 --> 0:30:03.200 about striking, but then remembered we're not unionized. Yes we didn't, 0:30:03.280 --> 0:30:07.320 but uh yeah, I mean it was we Yeah, we 0:30:07.320 --> 0:30:10.160 were really fed up, um people sitting in there for 0:30:10.240 --> 0:30:13.959 hours with their faces out, you know, as cases were rising. 0:30:14.080 --> 0:30:21.000 So UM yeah, great point. That's really pretty manipulative because 0:30:21.080 --> 0:30:26.040 like you should be helping us through covid. UM. That's 0:30:26.040 --> 0:30:32.440 not like a that's not a benefit. That's just that's like, yeah, 0:30:32.960 --> 0:30:36.400 it's not killing people. It's like should we should be 0:30:36.440 --> 0:30:40.440 something that's just kind of always there, shouldn't shouldn't be 0:30:40.480 --> 0:30:44.760 an extra you know. Yeah. And I mean as far 0:30:44.840 --> 0:30:49.440 as um, you know, sort of local um interference, I 0:30:49.440 --> 0:30:54.000 guess I'll say UM. I do want to say um. 0:30:54.040 --> 0:30:57.320 In my case, our store manager, UM, I really care 0:30:57.360 --> 0:31:01.280 about her. UM. I have a great working relationship with her. 0:31:01.440 --> 0:31:03.560 I really respect her. She's done a lot of good 0:31:03.560 --> 0:31:09.440 for our store. UM. And she's really just doing the 0:31:09.440 --> 0:31:13.800 best she can having conversations with us. Um. She has 0:31:14.680 --> 0:31:17.320 her opinions and feelings about it, and I just try 0:31:17.320 --> 0:31:21.000 to listen to them, and she listens to mine. Um. 0:31:21.040 --> 0:31:23.520 But there definitely Yeah, I mean as soon as we 0:31:24.160 --> 0:31:27.479 filed for an election, we started actually as soon as 0:31:27.520 --> 0:31:31.200 we started organizing, and they sort of caught wind. Um. 0:31:31.320 --> 0:31:37.080 We started having barista meetings, which are as vague as 0:31:37.160 --> 0:31:40.840 they sound, um, And people who had worked there longer 0:31:40.840 --> 0:31:45.360 than me said, we've never had these before. Um, maybe once, 0:31:45.520 --> 0:31:48.400 you know, in a few years. Um. So we started 0:31:48.400 --> 0:31:51.880 having all these meetings and not even talking about the 0:31:51.960 --> 0:31:54.240 union at first, but all of a sudden they wanted 0:31:54.320 --> 0:31:58.320 to hear from us and fix things in the store 0:31:58.560 --> 0:32:01.960 and and all this stuff and be super helpful and present. 0:32:02.040 --> 0:32:05.960 And then there definitely just was a heightened corporate presence 0:32:06.000 --> 0:32:09.760 in the store. Um, people we've never seen before coming in, like, hey, 0:32:09.800 --> 0:32:11.800 how are you doing? Want to talk? It's like, no, 0:32:11.920 --> 0:32:16.240 you're a stranger. I don't lot to talk to you. Um. 0:32:16.360 --> 0:32:21.160 So that was weird. UM. But yeah, yeah, there's there's 0:32:21.280 --> 0:32:24.760 definitely definitely just a shift in presence. Um. Again, any 0:32:24.760 --> 0:32:30.560 of these meetings and Um, yeah, it's been interesting. And 0:32:30.840 --> 0:32:34.360 what what do you kind of how do you see 0:32:34.440 --> 0:32:36.920 like the situation resolving? Like do you do you like 0:32:36.960 --> 0:32:40.640 how how like do you have has also like yeah, 0:32:40.760 --> 0:32:46.440 what's like the state of of of your stores specifically? Yeah, 0:32:46.560 --> 0:32:51.680 so we are on our way to an election. Um, 0:32:51.880 --> 0:32:57.720 we've requested an election. Uh so we're really just like 0:32:57.760 --> 0:33:01.240 in a waiting period for that. We don't know exactly 0:33:01.240 --> 0:33:06.160 when it's gonna be. We've heard soon, um, but who 0:33:06.200 --> 0:33:11.760 knows when that is? Um? We yeah, we have some 0:33:12.000 --> 0:33:15.920 we we had to do a zoom hearing for some 0:33:16.040 --> 0:33:20.120 of the legalities for things here in Massachusetts. That was interesting. 0:33:20.480 --> 0:33:22.480 But yeah, so we're we're just waiting for the election 0:33:22.520 --> 0:33:25.719 at this point. And the election is what will uh 0:33:25.800 --> 0:33:27.440 you know, that's when we're going to cast our yes 0:33:27.520 --> 0:33:30.720 or no vote. Um, and we will find out whether 0:33:30.800 --> 0:33:34.960 or not we're gonna unionize. And I think we will unionize. 0:33:35.040 --> 0:33:40.800 It's looking that way. I'm confident, um, and I really 0:33:40.840 --> 0:33:45.280 look forward to that. What do you think, um, Like, 0:33:46.400 --> 0:33:49.360 what do you see is happening after the vote is done? Like, 0:33:49.560 --> 0:33:52.200 like assuming it is a vote yes, Like, how do 0:33:52.240 --> 0:33:55.680 you think this will impact um? Working at the store, 0:33:55.840 --> 0:34:01.680 going forward, it's gonna be interesting and it's going to 0:34:01.800 --> 0:34:04.600 be an adjustment, right because from the time that we 0:34:05.120 --> 0:34:07.280 vote and we vote yes, Let's say we vote yes 0:34:07.360 --> 0:34:11.440 and we're going to unionize, there is it could take 0:34:11.480 --> 0:34:14.239 a long time. It could take a year, we don't know. 0:34:14.320 --> 0:34:17.320 It could take more and less UM to get from 0:34:17.360 --> 0:34:20.560 that vote to you know, what we refer to as 0:34:20.600 --> 0:34:26.800 the bargaining table UM to negotiating a contract with Starbucks. UM. 0:34:26.920 --> 0:34:31.200 And in that time there are things UM and again, 0:34:31.239 --> 0:34:33.480 if partners are listening, you can do your research on 0:34:33.520 --> 0:34:37.720 this on the n l r B website. UM there, 0:34:37.760 --> 0:34:41.720 you know, there are things that will be UM different 0:34:41.840 --> 0:34:45.880 in that waiting period. Right, So, if if Starbucks decides 0:34:45.960 --> 0:34:51.359 to release UM a nationwide UM spring raise, because why 0:34:51.400 --> 0:34:55.080 not we love giving you raises, UM, we would be 0:34:55.120 --> 0:34:58.400 exempt from that because we're in negotiations, Because we're in 0:34:58.440 --> 0:35:02.160 this sort of in between spot. UM there there are 0:35:02.280 --> 0:35:05.840 little weird things that we might have to just be 0:35:05.920 --> 0:35:09.880 aware of no going in UM in that sort of interim. 0:35:10.600 --> 0:35:14.479 Uh yeah, and then eventually, you know, those raises and 0:35:14.760 --> 0:35:16.839 any other things that we've sort of been waiting on 0:35:17.000 --> 0:35:20.359 get brought to the bargaining table. Yeah, I think this 0:35:20.400 --> 0:35:23.719 is an important thing for people to understand when when 0:35:23.719 --> 0:35:26.000 you're doing union organizing, right is you know, you have 0:35:26.040 --> 0:35:28.279 this giant push and you have like you have to 0:35:28.320 --> 0:35:30.120 have the push to get to get either recognition or 0:35:30.200 --> 0:35:34.080 to get this the National Labor Relations Board vote. But 0:35:35.160 --> 0:35:39.000 most unions that go under go under in like before 0:35:39.040 --> 0:35:42.319 the first contract, and you have to like that's that's 0:35:42.320 --> 0:35:44.239 something that you know when when you when you talk 0:35:44.239 --> 0:35:47.200 to people who who are the professionally you need organizers, 0:35:47.239 --> 0:35:50.920 they talked, they talked about this constantly. You have to 0:35:50.960 --> 0:35:54.600 hold it together during during that period between your first 0:35:54.600 --> 0:35:56.560 like bet between when you when you're when when you 0:35:56.680 --> 0:35:59.880 get recognized it when your vote ends that first contract. 0:36:00.120 --> 0:36:02.919 And it's hard in a lot of ways, Yeah, because 0:36:02.960 --> 0:36:05.520 they think you're talking about like management will do you know, 0:36:05.560 --> 0:36:08.320 they'll doyn't in tensify the union busting because they're hoping 0:36:08.360 --> 0:36:10.520 the union will still fall apart. But if you hold 0:36:10.560 --> 0:36:13.800 it together and if you get that first contract your union, 0:36:14.040 --> 0:36:16.239 like you know, you you now have a union and 0:36:16.560 --> 0:36:19.879 you've basically stabilized, and at that point, like you now 0:36:19.920 --> 0:36:21.920 have a seat at the table and you have to 0:36:21.920 --> 0:36:24.480 take your seat the table and fight. Yeah, but it's 0:36:24.520 --> 0:36:29.200 a big responsibility when when you say hold it together 0:36:29.360 --> 0:36:32.640 during that time, do you do you mean, like, um, 0:36:32.680 --> 0:36:36.040 just through those changes and that interim and that sort 0:36:36.080 --> 0:36:39.080 of weird awkward phase, like you have to like just 0:36:39.120 --> 0:36:41.480 hold it together like mentally and just kind of power 0:36:41.560 --> 0:36:44.920 through it. Yeah. Well, also I mean you have to, 0:36:45.080 --> 0:36:47.320 like you have to just keep making sure everyone's involved, 0:36:47.719 --> 0:36:52.319 which is something that's difficult because, Yeah, especially after sort 0:36:52.320 --> 0:36:56.400 of the initially, because people have also have like a 0:36:56.480 --> 0:36:59.200 job to do it this entire time, right, there's still 0:36:59.239 --> 0:37:02.080 they're still bake in coffee, they're still making the podcast, 0:37:02.080 --> 0:37:07.399 they're still doing whatever soever. Have you ever done? This 0:37:07.440 --> 0:37:09.480 is sort of beside the point, but it's fun. Have 0:37:09.560 --> 0:37:14.440 you guys ever done like the sixteen personalities personality assessment? 0:37:14.920 --> 0:37:18.440 At some point? I've never done it. It's really fun. 0:37:18.560 --> 0:37:22.200 I just did it for school, and it's the thing 0:37:22.239 --> 0:37:24.239 that tells you, like, I'm an i n f J 0:37:24.800 --> 0:37:30.320 TV and my thing is the advocate Sophie. What's yours? 0:37:30.360 --> 0:37:32.560 You look like you had one ready to go. I 0:37:32.600 --> 0:37:34.560 don't remember what it was, but I remember having to 0:37:34.560 --> 0:37:38.280 do it like fifteen times in school. Yeah. I also 0:37:38.440 --> 0:37:40.960 I also forget what I the one that I did 0:37:41.040 --> 0:37:43.480 for when I was in school as well, But I 0:37:43.960 --> 0:37:46.080 I brought it up because I'm thinking I want to 0:37:46.160 --> 0:37:49.839 send it to my fellow organizers and be like, do 0:37:49.920 --> 0:37:52.840 this and we can sort of highlight what each other's 0:37:52.880 --> 0:37:57.120 strengths are, um and start playing into those because like 0:37:57.160 --> 0:38:00.360 you were saying, Chris, like it really is a team effort, 0:38:00.640 --> 0:38:03.040 and I think it only really works if you are 0:38:03.400 --> 0:38:08.319 utilizing people and respecting people's strengths, you know, because not 0:38:08.440 --> 0:38:11.600 everyone has the same strengths. Like, yeah, you might be 0:38:11.680 --> 0:38:15.520 a kick as graphic designer, but like not everyone can 0:38:15.560 --> 0:38:19.760 do that. You know, maybe they're better at hosting get togethers, 0:38:19.880 --> 0:38:23.680 or they're better at writing emails or whatever. You know. 0:38:24.239 --> 0:38:26.680 I think, yeah, playing to strengths is so important in 0:38:26.719 --> 0:38:29.480 the long run, because, yeah, it can take a year 0:38:29.600 --> 0:38:33.120 to get to the negotiating table, which which like is horrible, 0:38:33.239 --> 0:38:35.560 Like that shouldn't be like it should it shouldn't be 0:38:35.640 --> 0:38:40.560 that long. Um. And you know, tactics such as like specifically, 0:38:41.000 --> 0:38:44.640 you know, raising wages around a unionization effort so that 0:38:44.680 --> 0:38:46.759 people in the union don't get it. That is like 0:38:46.800 --> 0:38:49.880 another form of union investing, Like that is like like, 0:38:50.160 --> 0:38:53.120 don't think they haven't thought that through, Like that is 0:38:53.160 --> 0:38:56.680 that is part of that whole process, being like oh yeah, 0:38:56.719 --> 0:38:59.480 you could have a union or you can get higher 0:38:59.480 --> 0:39:02.440 wages out Like that's like, that's that is part of 0:39:02.560 --> 0:39:04.759 what's going on. It's because they want people to not 0:39:04.840 --> 0:39:07.759 sign on to have long term benefits, so they're going 0:39:07.800 --> 0:39:11.000 to offer these short term benefits. So like it really 0:39:11.080 --> 0:39:15.319 is like because of how elongated the unionization process can be, 0:39:15.640 --> 0:39:17.080 it gives a lot of time for people to get 0:39:17.080 --> 0:39:21.640 burnt out. Um and and combating that, like combating being 0:39:21.640 --> 0:39:24.520 burnt out is one of the most important parts. And yeah, 0:39:24.560 --> 0:39:28.840 it's it's really it's really challenging sometimes. Oh my gosh, absolutely, 0:39:28.920 --> 0:39:33.200 I mean I love that conversation. I'm like a mental 0:39:33.239 --> 0:39:37.680 health dweeb. Um, it's it's my it's what my my 0:39:37.760 --> 0:39:40.920 podcast is called Your Messy Friend, and that's basically all 0:39:40.920 --> 0:39:44.160 I talk about is mental health. And yeah, the burnout. 0:39:44.239 --> 0:39:48.920 I mean, I'm recovering from burnout right now. You know, Um, 0:39:48.960 --> 0:39:52.839 it's very real. You have to make sure that you know, 0:39:53.000 --> 0:39:56.280 while you're taking care of everybody else and making these efforts, 0:39:56.320 --> 0:39:58.240 like you have to make sure that you are checking 0:39:58.280 --> 0:40:02.440 with yourself every and making sure your needs are being met, 0:40:02.760 --> 0:40:07.399 because giving from an empty tank does not last long. 0:40:08.520 --> 0:40:11.920 As I'm sure you guys know. Yeah, if you uh, if, 0:40:12.040 --> 0:40:15.280 if you're, if you're, if the water in your espresso 0:40:15.520 --> 0:40:20.279 machine is out, then nothing can flow through to make 0:40:20.360 --> 0:40:26.160 this for you exactly. See. It was what an amazingly 0:40:26.239 --> 0:40:32.839 crafted metaphor. I just not tortured at all anyway. So 0:40:33.080 --> 0:40:35.600 what is the like turnover rate at the store? Like, like, 0:40:35.640 --> 0:40:39.280 how how quickly are people coming in and out of jobs? 0:40:39.400 --> 0:40:47.239 And how has that been affecting organizing? The cool question. Um, 0:40:47.360 --> 0:40:50.480 we haven't had a ton of people leave since I 0:40:50.600 --> 0:40:55.280 got there, I mean, and I definitely I can pretty 0:40:55.320 --> 0:41:00.000 confidently say none of those had to do with unionizing. Um, 0:41:00.040 --> 0:41:03.399 it was all for just like different reasons. Um, we've 0:41:03.440 --> 0:41:07.400 had quite a few more people come in recently, and 0:41:07.440 --> 0:41:09.800 I would say that, Um, I mean, it's it's weird 0:41:09.920 --> 0:41:16.200 because our current store manager, who was great, she was 0:41:16.400 --> 0:41:20.480 hired around the same time that we really started amping 0:41:20.640 --> 0:41:25.680 up union stuff. And you know, it's almost unfortunate because 0:41:25.680 --> 0:41:29.799 I think she thought it was it was about her, 0:41:29.880 --> 0:41:32.960 and it just so wasn't you know. Um. But yeah, 0:41:33.080 --> 0:41:35.920 so it's who knows if it was just because she 0:41:36.080 --> 0:41:39.120 was there now or because of the union stuff or both. 0:41:39.160 --> 0:41:43.200 But uh, they did start hiring quite a few more people, 0:41:43.640 --> 0:41:46.080 um around the time that we started organizing. And yeah, 0:41:46.120 --> 0:41:48.840 I mean it's you have to walk this fine line 0:41:48.840 --> 0:41:51.000 when you have new people coming in. Of course, you 0:41:51.040 --> 0:41:54.160 want to get to them and give them your info 0:41:54.600 --> 0:41:57.480 um or at least give them resources to look into 0:41:58.239 --> 0:42:01.640 before corporate gets to them. Um. But then you also 0:42:02.080 --> 0:42:06.280 they're they're learning a new job. It's really fast paced 0:42:06.280 --> 0:42:09.480 and overwhelming, Like you have to be careful not to 0:42:09.480 --> 0:42:16.000 totally overwhelm them either. I mean that that's really something 0:42:16.040 --> 0:42:18.200 I've just tried to keep in mind throughout the whole process. 0:42:18.280 --> 0:42:23.480 Is like when my friend Tyler approached me, I was like, 0:42:24.120 --> 0:42:27.080 I don't know what this is. I don't I don't 0:42:27.120 --> 0:42:29.799 know if this is necessary for me. And now I'm 0:42:29.840 --> 0:42:34.440 on the committee, you know, so you know what I mean. Like, 0:42:34.440 --> 0:42:36.560 it's that thing where I'm like, Okay, if I could 0:42:36.600 --> 0:42:46.720 be convinced, maybe anyone can, all right, is there um 0:42:46.760 --> 0:42:50.719 any direct action that people who are listening, or any 0:42:50.760 --> 0:42:54.200 called action you have for us that we can provide 0:42:54.239 --> 0:42:56.680 to our listeners or links or anything that you think 0:42:56.719 --> 0:42:59.880 would be useful for our people to know. That's a 0:43:00.000 --> 0:43:03.600 coo idea. Yeah, thanks. UM, Like we mentioned before, if 0:43:03.600 --> 0:43:07.080 you want to just like stop by your local unionizing 0:43:07.360 --> 0:43:10.680 Starbucks and get a coffee with the name you know, 0:43:10.920 --> 0:43:14.800 unionized or union strong. That like that in person support, 0:43:15.480 --> 0:43:20.439 especially when your first organizing, is really really helpful. Even 0:43:20.520 --> 0:43:22.920 just stopping by to like drop off a card or 0:43:23.680 --> 0:43:27.920 say hey, good luck with unionizing. UM, that really means 0:43:27.920 --> 0:43:34.400 a lot. UM. You can follow SB Workers United on 0:43:34.520 --> 0:43:38.400 Instagram and Twitter and just engage with us, UM reach 0:43:38.440 --> 0:43:42.239 out if you need info about how to organize. The 0:43:42.280 --> 0:43:45.640 people on Instagram or so, I mean on all the 0:43:45.680 --> 0:43:50.239 platforms are just like so on top of responding UM, 0:43:50.360 --> 0:43:55.960 and uh, website, I think we have a website, I 0:43:56.000 --> 0:44:00.279 would so I would assume at this point. Yeah, I 0:44:00.320 --> 0:44:02.920 mean we have a pretty pop in Instagram and Twitter. 0:44:03.040 --> 0:44:07.960 But UM, yeah I don't. I don't think I'm forgetting anything. 0:44:08.000 --> 0:44:10.760 I think that's that's about it. UM, and just making 0:44:10.800 --> 0:44:15.040 noise on online is also really helpful. You know. I 0:44:15.080 --> 0:44:18.640 love when people comment on Starbucks posts and they're like, yeah, 0:44:18.680 --> 0:44:24.920 how about unions though. Yeah, the website is s B 0:44:25.200 --> 0:44:31.600 Workers United dot org affiliated with the Workers United and 0:44:31.680 --> 0:44:35.360 the Starbucks I think effort which has ways to donate 0:44:35.480 --> 0:44:38.279 or by by merch in support of the union and 0:44:38.320 --> 0:44:40.239 that kind of stuff, which funds I'll go to the 0:44:40.680 --> 0:44:43.680 go to the campaign and you know, just in case 0:44:43.719 --> 0:44:46.920 it wasn't clear, like and this is something you'll hear 0:44:46.920 --> 0:44:49.240 from Starbucks. Is all of this about the third party 0:44:49.239 --> 0:44:51.440 and Workers United is going to do this and that, 0:44:51.600 --> 0:44:57.719 blah blah blah. We essentially, you know, we work with that. 0:44:57.800 --> 0:45:00.439 They promote our cause, you know what I mean, They're 0:45:00.480 --> 0:45:03.839 here to support our mission and our goals. I mean, 0:45:04.000 --> 0:45:07.839 you'd be amazed by how much partners do for this, 0:45:07.960 --> 0:45:12.680 you know, so much. But we we do the nitty 0:45:12.719 --> 0:45:17.120 gritty every day, communicating with each other. We're communicating nationally 0:45:17.200 --> 0:45:21.120 now we have a platform for that. Um and yeah, 0:45:21.160 --> 0:45:24.600 it's really cool. And so like they are, they're kind 0:45:24.600 --> 0:45:28.520 of like, I don't know, the supporting beams of everything 0:45:28.560 --> 0:45:30.960 we're doing. You know, it's us. Yeah, but like the 0:45:31.000 --> 0:45:34.640 actual makeup of it definitely is with Starbucks employees, you know, 0:45:34.840 --> 0:45:37.080 and all the people I've been in like Twitter conversations 0:45:37.120 --> 0:45:39.399 with our d m s who are involved. It's like, yeah, 0:45:39.440 --> 0:45:42.480 like everyone who's like actively involved in doing it all, 0:45:42.560 --> 0:45:45.120 has worked at a Starbucks before, um and still and 0:45:45.160 --> 0:45:47.439 still are like it is. It is definitely being led 0:45:47.520 --> 0:45:51.799 by the workers. UM and yeah, that's really great and 0:45:51.840 --> 0:45:54.279 really crucial. UM do you have any do you have 0:45:54.320 --> 0:45:58.960 any other plugables for yourself or for yeah anything else 0:45:58.960 --> 0:46:04.160 in odd plug your pod? Yeah? Thanks guys, UM, this 0:46:04.280 --> 0:46:07.239 was really fun. Thank you for having me on. I 0:46:07.320 --> 0:46:12.280 love podcasting. UM so yeah, I mentioned sp Workers United 0:46:12.480 --> 0:46:16.000 on Instagram and Twitter. Make sure you give them a follow. 0:46:16.440 --> 0:46:20.160 Follow baristas you find along the way. Who are you 0:46:20.200 --> 0:46:23.759 know speaking up about this? Show them your support. UM. 0:46:23.800 --> 0:46:27.440 My podcast is called your Messy Friend. You can find me. 0:46:28.200 --> 0:46:32.279 I think wherever you get your podcasts definitely Spotify That's 0:46:32.280 --> 0:46:37.520 what I use. UM and yeah that's about it. Well, 0:46:37.560 --> 0:46:41.239 thank you so much Kayleie for joining us today. You 0:46:41.280 --> 0:46:44.920 talked about Starbucks and unions. UM can follow us online 0:46:45.000 --> 0:46:47.640 on Twitter, Instagram, at Happened Here pod and cool Zone 0:46:47.680 --> 0:46:50.480 Media And I think that does it does it for us. 0:46:50.719 --> 0:46:53.879 Can't wait for you all to win, ye, can't can't 0:46:53.920 --> 0:46:56.000 can't wait for you guys to win. As soon as 0:46:56.120 --> 0:46:59.000 as soon as Portland locations start going, I'll definitely go 0:46:59.080 --> 0:47:03.000 in and support, but until then I will make coffee 0:47:03.000 --> 0:47:07.840 alone in my my, my, my lonely, my my lonely 0:47:07.920 --> 0:47:11.840 espresso machine. Um. But yeah, thank you, thank you so 0:47:11.960 --> 0:47:15.680 much for flour coming on to talk. Thank you, thank 0:47:15.680 --> 0:47:27.960 you so much. Hey there, I'm jess Mi Lady Confetti here. Hi, 0:47:28.040 --> 0:47:30.800 I'm Psyche and I am Hey Shady Lady, and welcome 0:47:30.840 --> 0:47:34.040 to Boss Level podcast, where we feature conversations with gas 0:47:34.040 --> 0:47:36.720 tube leveled up bringing an x FE roost to the table. 0:47:37.000 --> 0:47:39.080 That was always my response, bec this is like I 0:47:39.200 --> 0:47:42.000 am like a unicorn here right, like because there's not 0:47:42.080 --> 0:47:46.240 allowed of like out of the closet female gamers, female gamers, 0:47:46.320 --> 0:47:48.719 I know a lot of them. Like it was like 0:47:48.760 --> 0:47:52.440 a battlefield, like this is our cool boys club and 0:47:53.480 --> 0:47:58.000 here no sorry, Henny, this is a very dark corner 0:47:58.080 --> 0:48:03.000 and I'm a lot of light and right. 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Welcome to it 0:49:32.040 --> 0:49:35.759 could happen here a podcast about things falling apart and 0:49:35.840 --> 0:49:40.960 even occasionally about trying to put them back together. Today, 0:49:41.480 --> 0:49:43.440 as is too often the case, we're going to be 0:49:43.480 --> 0:49:46.920 focused more on the falling apart thing, because today we 0:49:47.000 --> 0:49:52.279 are talking about the situation in Ukraine. Um it is 0:49:52.400 --> 0:49:55.600 as I type, or not type because I'm not writing, 0:49:55.600 --> 0:49:57.520 but you know, you get how I'm used to thinking. 0:49:57.560 --> 0:50:01.080 As I say this. Russian troops have just moved in 0:50:01.560 --> 0:50:04.920 to two regions in eastern Ukraine that have been occupied 0:50:04.960 --> 0:50:09.000 by what are generally called Russian backed separatists since two 0:50:09.000 --> 0:50:13.360 thousand and fourteen. Vladimir Putin gave a speech that I 0:50:13.360 --> 0:50:14.799 will be we will be talking about a bit with 0:50:14.800 --> 0:50:18.719 our guest um and announced his intention to recognize those 0:50:18.760 --> 0:50:24.520 breakaway sections of the country as independent republics. UH. And 0:50:24.640 --> 0:50:27.279 the area that he has chosen to recognize includes about 0:50:27.280 --> 0:50:31.239 seventy territory that is currently occupied and held by the 0:50:31.320 --> 0:50:34.640 Ukrainian government. So it's a big mess. UH. This is 0:50:35.520 --> 0:50:38.279 some have said like a soft version of the invasion 0:50:38.760 --> 0:50:41.080 that people were expecting. I think it's probably more accurate 0:50:41.080 --> 0:50:45.560 to say it's a slow start, um, compared to what 0:50:45.800 --> 0:50:48.480 is potentially possible and very likely coming in the future. 0:50:49.000 --> 0:50:52.200 To talk more about this and about being an anarchist 0:50:52.280 --> 0:50:55.680 kind of trapped in between you know, NATO and Russia 0:50:55.760 --> 0:51:00.640 and everything that's flinging around right now is Ukrainian journalist 0:51:01.000 --> 0:51:05.640 Romeo Kratski. Romeo, welcome to the show. Thanks a lot, 0:51:05.760 --> 0:51:08.200 Thanks for having me. Been a big fan of yours. 0:51:08.719 --> 0:51:11.920 So it's an honor to be here. And you are 0:51:11.920 --> 0:51:14.879 in your in Kiev right now, right? Yeah? Correct? And 0:51:14.880 --> 0:51:17.640 and how is everybody keeps asking this all around? But 0:51:17.680 --> 0:51:20.920 how is the mood? Um? As you know, to the 0:51:20.960 --> 0:51:22.919 extent that there's a way of saying that, like I've 0:51:22.960 --> 0:51:26.680 i've you know, have things kind of taking a turn 0:51:26.800 --> 0:51:32.040 since Putin actually made his first big play. I mean, 0:51:33.520 --> 0:51:36.319 as much as journalists like to say, there is no 0:51:36.440 --> 0:51:42.320 magic mudometer to cha to instantly bowl every resident in 0:51:42.400 --> 0:51:45.719 the city to find out walk around and talk to everybody, 0:51:46.520 --> 0:51:49.239 just like all the four million or whatever citizens in 0:51:49.280 --> 0:51:52.560 the city. Let me just let me just ask him. Um. 0:51:52.680 --> 0:51:55.440 But like, there definitely has been a turning point. Um. 0:51:55.760 --> 0:51:59.279 Like one of the big refrains that I've seen, like 0:51:59.360 --> 0:52:01.560 personally in that one has been saying, right is that 0:52:02.000 --> 0:52:04.919 Ukrainians are so calm. Look at these pictures of them 0:52:05.000 --> 0:52:07.600 like shopping in malls and like going to school. What 0:52:07.680 --> 0:52:10.040 else are you supposed to do? Honestly, what else are 0:52:10.040 --> 0:52:13.520 we supposed to do. But I mean that this true 0:52:13.560 --> 0:52:18.279 people have been called but since yesterday evening there definitely 0:52:18.400 --> 0:52:23.040 has been a shift, um, and even casual conversation, uh 0:52:23.120 --> 0:52:27.560 in key of like I was sitting, to paraphrase a 0:52:27.680 --> 0:52:32.440 famous columnists usual framing, I was sitting in a cafe 0:52:33.040 --> 0:52:37.080 and overhearing the wait staff chat amongst themselves. Um, and 0:52:37.160 --> 0:52:40.160 obviously the the the whole conversation is, oh is Putin 0:52:40.239 --> 0:52:45.319 going to push into Kiev? And anecdotally we're semi anecdotally, 0:52:45.360 --> 0:52:49.200 I guess, um, apartment prices in the western cities like 0:52:49.239 --> 0:52:53.400 in Leviv and us Grade have really spiked up, like incredibly, U. 0:52:54.080 --> 0:52:57.239 So people are I wouldn't call that that's a depressing 0:52:57.239 --> 0:52:59.359 way to pay attention to, that a reason to pay 0:52:59.400 --> 0:53:03.799 attention to at Like, I wouldn't call it a mass panic. Um. 0:53:03.840 --> 0:53:06.960 There's no like bank runs, no, like all the stores 0:53:06.960 --> 0:53:10.799 are stocked. No, one's like hoarding. Um. But at the 0:53:10.840 --> 0:53:14.160 same time, there is a study trickle of people going 0:53:14.200 --> 0:53:18.800 west and kind of making plains at this point. Yeah, 0:53:18.880 --> 0:53:22.480 and UM, so this to kind of give people a 0:53:22.520 --> 0:53:24.680 little bit more context before we get into some of 0:53:24.719 --> 0:53:32.160 the more political dimensions of this UM Right now, there 0:53:32.200 --> 0:53:37.320 has not been a massive escalation, UM of violence outside 0:53:37.320 --> 0:53:39.959 of the areas where there have been fighting for several years. 0:53:40.000 --> 0:53:41.680 You know, there has been an escalation on the front 0:53:41.719 --> 0:53:46.120 line that's existed since UM, but there has not been like, 0:53:46.560 --> 0:53:49.240 you know, troops pouring across the border in other areas 0:53:49.239 --> 0:53:53.800 and stuff. And that's obviously probably the number one worry. UM. 0:53:53.840 --> 0:53:57.759 It looks like what's about to happen is or at 0:53:57.840 --> 0:54:02.000 least it's hard to say, because put has recognized the 0:54:02.080 --> 0:54:06.680 borders of this breakaway part of Ukraine as significantly larger 0:54:06.680 --> 0:54:09.320 than the area they actually control, and he has moved troops, 0:54:09.480 --> 0:54:12.800 Russian active duty troops into that area. Now, Russian troops, 0:54:12.840 --> 0:54:15.640 I'm from what I've heard about three thousand have been 0:54:15.840 --> 0:54:19.120 in the breakaway areas for years now, UM, but a 0:54:19.120 --> 0:54:23.719 significant yeah, a significant number have been added now. And 0:54:23.760 --> 0:54:26.960 obviously the fear is that because he has recognized the 0:54:27.040 --> 0:54:30.120 territory of these these quote unquote in his terms breakaway 0:54:30.120 --> 0:54:32.680 republics is being much larger than what they control, that 0:54:32.800 --> 0:54:36.800 Russian troops are going to participate with the separatists UM 0:54:36.840 --> 0:54:42.040 in attacking and taking those territories from the Ukrainian government. UM. 0:54:42.080 --> 0:54:45.680 That's one concern, obviously, the the concern attached to that 0:54:45.800 --> 0:54:49.520 is that it would be not at all inconceivable for 0:54:49.600 --> 0:54:52.279 a conflict that started that way to spread to a 0:54:52.360 --> 0:54:56.799 much wider part of Ukraine. Um, this is all coming 0:54:56.840 --> 0:55:00.680 alongside a speech Putin gave that unfortunate. He is gonna 0:55:00.719 --> 0:55:05.359 be one of those things people here about in history books. Um. Yeah, 0:55:06.360 --> 0:55:09.640 God damn mind. And it's one of those things. We 0:55:09.719 --> 0:55:13.239 will talk some more about how the Western left sometimes 0:55:13.239 --> 0:55:15.719 I don't want to be like because this is also 0:55:15.760 --> 0:55:18.799 largely the the online left, but how the online left 0:55:18.840 --> 0:55:21.680 talks about Putin sometimes. This was not a I want 0:55:21.680 --> 0:55:24.200 to return to the Soviet Union at speech. This was 0:55:24.280 --> 0:55:27.360 I want to return to czarist Russia's borders type speech. 0:55:27.719 --> 0:55:32.600 Like the guy has the czarist imperial crest emblazoned on 0:55:32.680 --> 0:55:35.080 the gates to his palace. So I'm really not sure 0:55:35.080 --> 0:55:39.040 what people would have expected. And unfortunately he's better at 0:55:39.120 --> 0:55:41.760 his job than any of the last tsars were because 0:55:41.760 --> 0:55:45.080 he's he's achieved a notable amount of success towards that 0:55:45.160 --> 0:55:50.000 goal already. Um, and yeah, he a number of things 0:55:50.280 --> 0:55:53.080 that were it's one of those like one of the 0:55:53.160 --> 0:55:55.560 things he said, which is a line that folks like 0:55:55.680 --> 0:55:58.840 him in Russia have been saying for a while is 0:55:58.920 --> 0:56:03.520 that you Ukranes, the existence of Ukraine as an independent 0:56:03.560 --> 0:56:07.080 polity is a mistake. And as an anarchist, you know, 0:56:07.120 --> 0:56:09.279 there's this like, well, yeah, I don't I don't like 0:56:09.320 --> 0:56:12.000 the Ukrainian state. I don't like any state in particular. 0:56:12.040 --> 0:56:14.440 But if you're if your only disagreement is with the 0:56:14.800 --> 0:56:17.400 statehood of Ukraine and you're fine with the state of Russia, 0:56:17.480 --> 0:56:21.000 you know, then then perhaps what you actually think is 0:56:21.040 --> 0:56:24.160 that people in Ukraine should not have any autonomy to 0:56:24.239 --> 0:56:28.399 disagree with the government in Moscow. Um. And I think 0:56:28.440 --> 0:56:32.920 that's the case here. Um. There's a there's similarities between 0:56:32.960 --> 0:56:36.359 how Putin and those like him in Russia treat Ukrainians 0:56:37.040 --> 0:56:40.520 um with how, for example, the Turks treat Kurds in 0:56:40.560 --> 0:56:42.359 the southern part of the country. There's this this thing 0:56:42.400 --> 0:56:44.400 you'll hear a lot from Turkey, where like, there's no 0:56:44.520 --> 0:56:47.239 Kurds in Turkey, They're they're mountain Turks who have lost 0:56:47.320 --> 0:56:51.520 their their language. And there's this denial from Putin in 0:56:51.560 --> 0:56:55.320 the Russians that Ukrainians are a people, that they exist, 0:56:55.400 --> 0:56:57.959 and there this this is a something that has translated. 0:56:58.840 --> 0:57:01.520 Most people have heard versions of this and just any 0:57:01.560 --> 0:57:03.160 of the coverage you've heard of Ukraine, if you've ever 0:57:03.160 --> 0:57:05.839 heard of it referred to as the Ukraine. What that 0:57:06.040 --> 0:57:10.080 is is part of a very old um line that 0:57:10.160 --> 0:57:13.840 kind of exists to allow Russians to deny the existence 0:57:13.920 --> 0:57:15.799 of Ukrainians as a people and make it make it 0:57:15.840 --> 0:57:18.160 seem more like it's just kind of a geographic region, 0:57:18.200 --> 0:57:21.720 which is not the case. And why you wouldn't refer 0:57:21.800 --> 0:57:24.000 to you wouldn't call it the Ukraine anymore than you 0:57:24.000 --> 0:57:27.040 would call it the Canada. Um, it just isn't the 0:57:27.080 --> 0:57:30.680 way you, you say, should say that. But um, Yeah, 0:57:30.880 --> 0:57:34.320 So I think that's at least enough of a background 0:57:34.360 --> 0:57:36.000 to get into the real media of what we want 0:57:36.000 --> 0:57:37.800 to talk about. So, and I'm just going to kind 0:57:37.800 --> 0:57:40.640 of open this up to you to chat about what 0:57:40.720 --> 0:57:43.520 you'd like to say and what you think needs to 0:57:43.560 --> 0:57:48.240 be gotten across to the international left, because internationalism is 0:57:48.560 --> 0:57:50.520 something we value a lot here and it has been 0:57:50.560 --> 0:57:57.840 hard to find in this conflict. Yeah, Like growing up 0:57:57.960 --> 0:58:01.760 in New York in the nine ease, one of the 0:58:01.840 --> 0:58:06.520 core values I kind of absorbed, I guess through osmosis 0:58:07.520 --> 0:58:11.040 is the value that every single person I met, regardless 0:58:11.040 --> 0:58:13.680 of whatever corner of the world they came from, is 0:58:13.760 --> 0:58:18.600 the exact same beings me, UM, And it wasn't. And 0:58:18.600 --> 0:58:21.959 and that kind of realization was one of the things 0:58:22.000 --> 0:58:27.080 that I guess, I wouldn't say pushed, but UM conspired 0:58:27.120 --> 0:58:33.120 to to turn me into a leftist, a socialist, Marxist UM. 0:58:33.200 --> 0:58:36.200 And part of that, especially when I was learning about 0:58:36.240 --> 0:58:40.920 what the hell all these isms were UM, was internationalism, 0:58:40.960 --> 0:58:44.840 the idea that well, our struggle isn't within the the 0:58:44.960 --> 0:58:49.160 fabricated borders of whatever UM polity has has decided to 0:58:49.200 --> 0:58:54.960 impose their their authority UM. But internationally, every single worker 0:58:55.000 --> 0:58:57.760 is the same as every other worker. We're all struggling 0:58:58.240 --> 0:59:02.680 with the same issues, We're all fighting the same forces, UM, 0:59:02.720 --> 0:59:07.760 and generally speaking, we have the same enemies. Now fast 0:59:07.760 --> 0:59:12.840 forward too, Uh, I go online and what do I see? Well, 0:59:13.280 --> 0:59:17.960 Ukrainians are all Nazis or Ukraine shouldn't exist, or how 0:59:17.960 --> 0:59:20.800 can we support either of those? It's two fascist states 0:59:20.800 --> 0:59:24.120 fighting each other. And I'm sorry, Ukraine has got a 0:59:24.280 --> 0:59:26.320 population of forty four million. You want to tell me 0:59:26.680 --> 0:59:30.400 that every single one of those forty four million or 0:59:30.480 --> 0:59:34.280 Nazis like people don't even say that about Germany. Yeah, 0:59:34.280 --> 0:59:36.840 they were literally the Nazi state, I mean, nor the 0:59:36.920 --> 0:59:41.880 United States, um for that man, Like, we had four 0:59:41.960 --> 0:59:48.080 years of Trump and openly fascist authoritarian leader, and no 0:59:48.120 --> 0:59:50.280 one seems to say, well, I guess the U s 0:59:50.280 --> 0:59:52.720 should be bombed. Well, I guess there are some. I mean, 0:59:52.720 --> 0:59:55.280 there's definitely there's definitely people who say that, but yeah, 0:59:55.360 --> 1:00:00.680 but generally speaking, that's not exactly of the view that 1:00:00.720 --> 1:00:05.280 people take, right. Um. So it's it's been a long 1:00:05.760 --> 1:00:09.600 process of disappointment. Well, I say, long, Um, there's always 1:00:09.600 --> 1:00:13.400 been the kind of well what are these people really 1:00:13.400 --> 1:00:18.760 think about Ukraine? But breaft of such a strong impetus 1:00:18.800 --> 1:00:21.760 to take a side, I guess, um that hasn't been 1:00:21.840 --> 1:00:25.120 in the forefront. And now every day I see people 1:00:25.200 --> 1:00:27.520 that I would have considered comrades, that I would have 1:00:27.600 --> 1:00:33.400 considered um friends and brothers, just kind of turned their 1:00:33.440 --> 1:00:37.440 back on me. Because I live here, right, any any aggression, 1:00:37.480 --> 1:00:42.120 any action that's taken will literally affect me physically sitting 1:00:42.120 --> 1:00:46.960 here and cube. Um. So it's been it's been really 1:00:47.920 --> 1:00:51.720 really immensely disheartening to see that every single value um 1:00:51.800 --> 1:00:53.880 that I thought the left was supposed to value that 1:00:53.880 --> 1:00:57.360 that I thought the left was built on UM between 1:00:59.480 --> 1:01:02.320 by people with rows emojis or hammering sickles in their 1:01:03.120 --> 1:01:06.800 user names, or whatever the hell it is. And we 1:01:07.040 --> 1:01:09.640 should probably talk about some of why this is and 1:01:09.640 --> 1:01:12.480 what the what the history is here. So, the most 1:01:12.560 --> 1:01:15.280 kind of direct thing that people can point to when 1:01:15.320 --> 1:01:17.280 they when they call Ukraine a fascist state or when 1:01:17.280 --> 1:01:19.000 they talk about this is the existence of the ass 1:01:19.040 --> 1:01:22.560 Off Battalion the AS of Italian as a paramilitary organization. 1:01:23.080 --> 1:01:25.880 That means it's it's not officially a part of the 1:01:25.920 --> 1:01:30.160 governmental military structure, but it it does receive has received 1:01:30.280 --> 1:01:34.320 arms from the government, and it UH functions as part 1:01:34.440 --> 1:01:38.840 of Ukraine's defense forces UM for the for the purposes 1:01:38.880 --> 1:01:42.440 of fighting off the Russian back separatists UM and the 1:01:42.520 --> 1:01:45.160 AS of Italian and Nazis. There's there's you know, the 1:01:45.360 --> 1:01:48.600 the you can There's been a tremendous amount of reporting 1:01:48.640 --> 1:01:51.640 on that. On that matter, it's a big problem in 1:01:51.680 --> 1:01:55.160 the Ukrainian government deserves a significant amount of criticism for 1:01:55.960 --> 1:01:58.400 the degree to which as OFF has been allowed to 1:01:58.400 --> 1:02:02.200 continue existing UM. But there's also a lot that gets 1:02:02.280 --> 1:02:05.439 left out when people focus on that, including the fact that, 1:02:05.800 --> 1:02:08.600 for example, the political wing of as off right sector, 1:02:08.640 --> 1:02:10.360 which is kind of the that would be fair to 1:02:10.400 --> 1:02:12.240 call it the umbrella term for like the far right 1:02:12.280 --> 1:02:16.240 parties in the ukrain Ukrainian government have been pretty effectively 1:02:16.400 --> 1:02:21.160 siloed away from political power through very active measures to 1:02:21.200 --> 1:02:25.320 about like what is one percent of um like representation, 1:02:25.960 --> 1:02:28.520 and so it didn't actually pass the threshold tantra the 1:02:28.520 --> 1:02:32.840 new barliament. Yeah, they're they're nonentity politically, they're just non 1:02:32.880 --> 1:02:38.400 popular there um campaigns failed, their models fail, their agitation fails. 1:02:39.120 --> 1:02:42.960 Ukrainians do not want to vote for Nazis. Yeah, and 1:02:43.000 --> 1:02:46.600 it's it is. It is a an ugly situation. And 1:02:46.640 --> 1:02:49.080 I remember talking with when I was reporting on the 1:02:49.160 --> 1:02:53.120 midn uprisings, which is when, again for people who aren't 1:02:53.200 --> 1:02:56.600 up on recent Ukrainian history, they had a president who 1:02:57.040 --> 1:03:00.640 tried to do a dictatorship m and people rose up 1:03:00.640 --> 1:03:02.840 and fought him in the streets. Um. It was a 1:03:02.920 --> 1:03:05.720 very gnarly time. About two d people were shot by 1:03:05.760 --> 1:03:09.400 government forces UM. And eventually the president was forced to 1:03:09.400 --> 1:03:11.960 flee the country, which is what precipitated everything that's happening 1:03:11.960 --> 1:03:14.920 now because that president was pretty closely tied with Putin 1:03:15.040 --> 1:03:19.280 and the people fighting him. Um, we're not all they 1:03:19.320 --> 1:03:22.160 were not pro NATO rebels, but they were more definitely 1:03:22.160 --> 1:03:24.800 more supportive of closer ties with Western Europe than they 1:03:24.800 --> 1:03:27.560 were with Russia. UM. And that again, those are kind 1:03:27.560 --> 1:03:32.600 of the precipitating events for everything that happened that's happening now. Um. 1:03:32.640 --> 1:03:35.520 And some of the people who were fighting the president's 1:03:35.520 --> 1:03:38.840 forces were fascists. Um. And it's one of those things. 1:03:38.880 --> 1:03:41.760 I remember talking with protesters at the time who were like, well, 1:03:41.800 --> 1:03:44.040 am I supposed to get in fight with them at 1:03:44.040 --> 1:03:45.919 the same time as I'm trying not to get shot 1:03:45.960 --> 1:03:48.240 by riot police, Like what what do you expect me 1:03:48.280 --> 1:03:51.400 to do? And it is a nasty situation, and it's 1:03:51.440 --> 1:03:55.440 one of those things. Um. I don't know, Like I 1:03:55.440 --> 1:03:58.440 I don't know what to tell people about that, because 1:03:58.720 --> 1:04:05.400 it's it's it's ugly, and it's uncomfortable and it's messy. 1:04:05.480 --> 1:04:10.120 And that's also Ukrainian history. There's a lot of ugly, uncomfortable, 1:04:10.160 --> 1:04:12.760 messy things here is there's with every country's history. It 1:04:12.840 --> 1:04:16.200 doesn't mean people in Kiev deserve to have their housing 1:04:16.400 --> 1:04:19.520 blocks pounded by Russian artillery. Doesn't mean that people Indivka 1:04:19.840 --> 1:04:23.240 deserve to have their homes pounded by artillery UM. And 1:04:23.440 --> 1:04:26.040 whatever criticisms you want to make about how the Russian 1:04:26.080 --> 1:04:28.439 government or how the Ukrainian government has handled as Off, 1:04:28.440 --> 1:04:31.640 and there are many criticisms to make, that's not really 1:04:31.640 --> 1:04:34.640 relevant to the people living in these areas having their 1:04:34.640 --> 1:04:37.960 homes destroyed on a daily basis by mortar fire. I 1:04:38.040 --> 1:04:40.560 just want to make like a couple of things really clear. 1:04:41.720 --> 1:04:46.560 The as Off Batallion is like a thousand guys like Max. 1:04:47.520 --> 1:04:50.680 And the reason, one of the reasons at least that 1:04:50.800 --> 1:04:53.400 they rose to such prominence in the beginning wasn't only 1:04:53.480 --> 1:04:57.600 there um ability to to mobilize in the early stages 1:04:57.640 --> 1:05:01.200 of the Russian war against Ukraine. It was also because 1:05:01.240 --> 1:05:04.680 they had very strong financial backing UM from the former 1:05:04.720 --> 1:05:09.920 Interior Minister um Arsenovakav and Ivankav is no longer in power. UH. 1:05:09.960 --> 1:05:14.040 And one of the things you can see immediately was 1:05:14.200 --> 1:05:19.280 the like almost nullifying of fascist street marshes and fascist 1:05:19.320 --> 1:05:24.560 demonstrations UM in Kiev outside the President's office. That all 1:05:24.640 --> 1:05:30.120 vanished because more like in Ukraine, ideology is not very strong. 1:05:30.120 --> 1:05:32.240 And this is something UM that I've noticed a lot 1:05:32.240 --> 1:05:35.240 of people UH from the US in Europe have trouble 1:05:35.320 --> 1:05:41.480 understanding about Ukrainian politics. People here are not really ideological. 1:05:41.600 --> 1:05:45.280 Our parties don't map aside from a couple of outliers 1:05:45.320 --> 1:05:48.640 like rights actor UM, it doesn't really map to any 1:05:48.840 --> 1:05:52.920 left right access UM. People typically will always want the 1:05:52.960 --> 1:05:56.440 same policies, like they always want a pension, they always 1:05:56.440 --> 1:05:59.280 want UM universal health care to be better, they always 1:05:59.320 --> 1:06:03.840 want the roads fit UM generally policy something most Ukrainians 1:06:03.880 --> 1:06:06.720 actually agree on UM. As a result, most of our 1:06:06.760 --> 1:06:10.400 elections are purely personality based. That's one of the reasons 1:06:10.920 --> 1:06:15.440 Zelenski Voldemer's Lenski, our current president, one was because he 1:06:15.480 --> 1:06:19.440 was a well known comedian. Yeah, and people liked his personality, 1:06:19.520 --> 1:06:22.000 and he put out a whole TV show as a 1:06:22.080 --> 1:06:26.520 PR stunt before launching his campaign, and people voted for 1:06:26.560 --> 1:06:32.600 that personality based on screen. H And so when there 1:06:32.800 --> 1:06:35.600 was far right activity, and again I want to stress 1:06:35.640 --> 1:06:40.000 that that activity, even the street activity, has almost disappeared. 1:06:40.400 --> 1:06:44.720 It's because the far right is typically used in Ukraine 1:06:44.760 --> 1:06:48.040 as a political tool by one oligarc We're one interest 1:06:48.080 --> 1:06:52.560 group against another. That's why when the money disappeared, they disappeared. 1:06:52.920 --> 1:06:57.120 Because the leaderships, the leadership of these fascist groups typically speaking, 1:06:57.840 --> 1:07:03.160 we're not um that ideological themselves. But they did like 1:07:03.320 --> 1:07:06.400 having USUV s, and they did like buying guns and 1:07:07.200 --> 1:07:10.680 um hiring hookers and doing drugs. Like they liked the 1:07:10.760 --> 1:07:13.080 money and that's why they did it. And they would 1:07:13.120 --> 1:07:15.960 convince a bunch of teenagers to go out and wave 1:07:16.000 --> 1:07:20.120 a couple of torches and march or chant. But these 1:07:20.120 --> 1:07:24.760 guys were really purely for the money. Um And again 1:07:24.800 --> 1:07:27.080 you can tell that because when their financial backer disappeared, 1:07:27.880 --> 1:07:30.040 I don't in order to be found. Yeah, And it's 1:07:30.040 --> 1:07:31.560 one of those one of the things that is very 1:07:31.600 --> 1:07:34.800 frustrating to me. I can't remember one of the earliest 1:07:34.840 --> 1:07:38.240 projects that I did that was like a for belling 1:07:38.240 --> 1:07:40.680 cat as we were there was a Pride march in 1:07:40.800 --> 1:07:43.160 Kiev that got attacked by Nazis. This was a couple 1:07:43.160 --> 1:07:45.400 of years back, and we were kind of trying to 1:07:45.440 --> 1:07:48.520 identify the individual fascists who are like beating people in 1:07:48.560 --> 1:07:53.000 the street, and it's spending hours pouring over that footage. 1:07:53.120 --> 1:07:56.880 It makes it incredibly frustrating that there are people outside 1:07:56.880 --> 1:07:58.840 of the country boiling it down to while all of 1:07:58.840 --> 1:08:01.560 those people are fascists, all of those people are part 1:08:01.560 --> 1:08:04.000 of a fascist state. It's like, no, a lot of 1:08:04.000 --> 1:08:06.960 those people, quite a few Ukrainians have fought Nazis in 1:08:07.000 --> 1:08:11.040 the streets, you know. Um, that's the reality of the situation. 1:08:11.240 --> 1:08:17.200 And it's it's um, and it's it's ugly in part 1:08:17.400 --> 1:08:21.599 because if you actually want to look at what's been happening, 1:08:22.360 --> 1:08:25.800 uh with the Russian back separatists, there's a lot of 1:08:26.439 --> 1:08:31.520 fascists over there. Um. There's a lot of paramilitary organizations 1:08:31.520 --> 1:08:33.760 and like far right groups that have been used by 1:08:33.760 --> 1:08:38.800 the Russian government. Yeah. Yeah, literally literally them because they're 1:08:38.840 --> 1:08:44.479 fascist leader yeah Liken like many Nazis. It's it's it's 1:08:44.520 --> 1:08:49.559 hard to to understand, honestly from my perspective, um, because 1:08:49.720 --> 1:08:53.840 not only is Russian fascism have far more influence on 1:08:53.920 --> 1:08:57.280 Russian policy than any Ukrainian fascists has ever had in 1:08:57.360 --> 1:09:01.040 Ugrainian baals Um, it's also that the Russian project and 1:09:01.080 --> 1:09:05.439 the narrative they use. Um. There there's this joke they 1:09:05.479 --> 1:09:08.720 call are not really joke, a slurred they call they 1:09:08.720 --> 1:09:12.599 call Ukrainians nazy's been darists um for those who don't 1:09:12.600 --> 1:09:19.679 Open Darrow was a Ukrainian nationalist leader partisan fought against 1:09:19.680 --> 1:09:26.000 the Soviets UH and he his organization was implicated in 1:09:26.479 --> 1:09:29.479 quite a few war crimes, significant number of war crimes, 1:09:29.880 --> 1:09:34.760 war crimes. UH so clearly been near himself, probably not 1:09:34.800 --> 1:09:40.960 a great guy, yeah, but to delegitimize all Ukrainian kind 1:09:40.960 --> 1:09:43.759 of independence movements that I've propped up over the years, 1:09:44.000 --> 1:09:46.439 the Soviet government and now the Russian government has always 1:09:46.479 --> 1:09:50.959 always insisted that there is no legitimate way for Ukraine 1:09:51.439 --> 1:09:54.320 to be independent where all Nats He's been Darists no 1:09:54.360 --> 1:09:57.400 matter what. And that's why you had UM. There's a 1:09:57.400 --> 1:10:00.320 picture a couple of days ago of a solid erry 1:10:00.360 --> 1:10:06.720 Marsha Kiev UM with UH some of Kiev's LGBT community 1:10:06.880 --> 1:10:12.240 holding up Bandera's flags, not because they're gay Nazis, because 1:10:13.680 --> 1:10:18.400 it's a way of yeah, retaking this slur back from 1:10:18.439 --> 1:10:22.360 the Russians. And it's all part of the complicating factor 1:10:22.439 --> 1:10:27.439 here is that because of how geo politics worked out 1:10:27.479 --> 1:10:30.760 in that period of time, there are very uncomfortable but 1:10:30.840 --> 1:10:36.679 kind of inextricable ties between UH Ukrainian, the basic idea 1:10:36.760 --> 1:10:41.040 of Ukraine being a nation independent from Russia and anti communism, 1:10:41.080 --> 1:10:44.520 And because of what was going on in anti communism 1:10:44.520 --> 1:10:47.120 in that period of time we're talking the thirties and forties. 1:10:47.479 --> 1:10:51.040 It means that a decent number of those early Ukrainian 1:10:51.120 --> 1:10:55.959 nationalists were either directly implicated with the Nazis like Bandera, 1:10:56.080 --> 1:10:59.040 or at least had uncomfortable ties. And that's a messy 1:10:59.080 --> 1:11:02.280 part of history that shouldn't shied away from. But for example, 1:11:02.360 --> 1:11:04.880 the same thing is true of Finland, Like do you 1:11:04.920 --> 1:11:08.880 can say the exact same thing about sucking Finnish nationalism, 1:11:08.960 --> 1:11:13.240 Finnish sovereignty and whatnot, um, And people don't call Finland 1:11:13.240 --> 1:11:16.680 a Nazi nation um even though yeah, the fact that 1:11:16.720 --> 1:11:18.760 they were stuck between the U S s R. And 1:11:18.840 --> 1:11:21.320 Nazi Germany means that there were a lot of Fins 1:11:21.360 --> 1:11:23.240 in that period of time who made some real fucked 1:11:23.320 --> 1:11:27.880 up choices, um like. But also there's a lot that 1:11:27.920 --> 1:11:31.679 has to be like, you can't adequately discuss why those 1:11:31.760 --> 1:11:33.559 choices were made if you don't talk about, for example, 1:11:33.560 --> 1:11:36.519 the holodomor you know, which was the starvation genocide of 1:11:36.520 --> 1:11:40.920 several million Ukrainians by the Soviet government. Like honestly, to 1:11:41.280 --> 1:11:45.160 go back even further, um and to I don't know, 1:11:46.280 --> 1:11:48.880 burnish my leftist prodountion a little bit. If you go 1:11:49.000 --> 1:11:53.519 back to the Civil War itself, where UM a lot 1:11:53.560 --> 1:11:57.599 of this started. Most of the nationalist groups, I would 1:11:57.600 --> 1:11:59.599 say nearly all of them. There were one or two 1:11:59.640 --> 1:12:03.080 monarchy minor monarchist groups in Ukraine, but the grand majority 1:12:03.080 --> 1:12:07.679 of them were in fact socialism or socialist. They had 1:12:08.240 --> 1:12:11.080 like the hammer and sickle and wheat on their currency 1:12:11.160 --> 1:12:14.639 and everything, because at the time that was what one 1:12:14.760 --> 1:12:20.639 votes UH from the peasantry. But when the Bolsheviks crushed 1:12:20.760 --> 1:12:26.559 every independent Ukrainian social movement in exchange for bureaucrats that 1:12:26.600 --> 1:12:32.960 they imported from the Empire and just shoved into Ukrainian cities, H, Well, 1:12:33.000 --> 1:12:36.360 then you had Ukrainians that wanted to be independent and 1:12:36.400 --> 1:12:39.840 wanted to have a better life than under the CSAR. Well, 1:12:39.880 --> 1:12:44.120 now suddenly they don't even have that support UM from 1:12:44.240 --> 1:12:49.400 the Bolsheviks. UH. And obviously, as a Ukrainian UM, I 1:12:49.439 --> 1:12:52.920 can't talk about this without bringing up Nestro Macnu, who 1:12:53.040 --> 1:12:55.720 was a anarchist leader, the leader of the Ukrainian Black 1:12:55.840 --> 1:12:59.719 Army UM during the Civil War and what happened to them, Well, 1:13:00.080 --> 1:13:03.439 the Bolsheviks betrayed them and killed all of them, and 1:13:03.520 --> 1:13:06.320 of course the movement UH and then smeared them all 1:13:06.520 --> 1:13:10.519 is um how to file rapist cannibals if I remember correctly. Yeah, yeah, 1:13:10.520 --> 1:13:14.160 there's a lot of of of disinformation you can find 1:13:14.200 --> 1:13:17.439 about that time, just like today, you know, only the 1:13:17.520 --> 1:13:22.200 names have changed exactly. So if there is no other 1:13:22.320 --> 1:13:27.880 outlet for Ukrainian nationalism and the group that you thought 1:13:27.920 --> 1:13:32.360 maybe an ally in UH destroying the empire in granting 1:13:32.400 --> 1:13:35.600 you self determination turns out to be a continuation of 1:13:35.640 --> 1:13:40.880 that exact empire, well it's pretty logical. Maybe not right, 1:13:40.880 --> 1:13:43.519 but it is pretty logical for people go to the 1:13:43.680 --> 1:13:45.760 for people to go to the other extream. And it's 1:13:45.800 --> 1:13:47.680 one of those One of the things I think that 1:13:47.680 --> 1:13:50.720 should be noted more, as we talked about earlier, is 1:13:50.760 --> 1:13:55.080 that one of these stories of Ukrainian politics, particularly in 1:13:55.120 --> 1:13:58.599 the last got close to a decade since the Maidan, 1:13:59.640 --> 1:14:04.679 is that at mainstream Ukrainian political leaders and Ukrainian voters 1:14:04.680 --> 1:14:08.639 have overwhelmingly rejected that sort of nationalism this time around, 1:14:08.800 --> 1:14:11.599 UM and have gone out of their way to silo 1:14:11.680 --> 1:14:14.800 it out of active political power, UM in a way 1:14:14.800 --> 1:14:16.880 that one could argue is more successful than has been 1:14:16.920 --> 1:14:23.240 done in the United States. UM. And absolutely we didn't trump. Yeah, no, 1:14:23.400 --> 1:14:28.160 you get you guys basically elected John Stewart. Um pretty much. 1:14:28.200 --> 1:14:31.479 I mean that was his Um. Yeah, it was his 1:14:31.640 --> 1:14:35.560 whole thing. He put on satirical political sketches, that was 1:14:35.640 --> 1:14:40.679 the entire show. Um, we did basically elect John Stewart. 1:14:40.760 --> 1:14:43.960 And you know, I have my criticisms of Zelenski, um 1:14:44.000 --> 1:14:47.280 as a lot of people do. Uh. And one of 1:14:47.280 --> 1:14:50.120 the things we love saying in Ukraine whenever people are like, oh, 1:14:50.280 --> 1:14:52.040 look at all the look at all the Nazis there, 1:14:52.320 --> 1:14:55.920 We're so not We're so anti semitic that we elected 1:14:56.080 --> 1:14:59.559 a Jewish comedian. That's how. That's how anti semitical we are. 1:15:00.360 --> 1:15:03.320 That we have huge minoures standing in the middle of 1:15:03.439 --> 1:15:06.960 Kieva during the high holidays, that's how. That's how antisemitic 1:15:07.040 --> 1:15:11.519 we are. Yeah. And and Zelinski's uh prime minister is 1:15:11.640 --> 1:15:14.439 also a Jewish man, which makes Ukraine the second country 1:15:14.439 --> 1:15:18.200 in the world to have a Jewish president and prime minister. Um. Yeah, 1:15:18.240 --> 1:15:20.840 Like we don't care because it's not it doesn't even 1:15:20.920 --> 1:15:24.719 come up in campaigns like what even when Romney was running, 1:15:24.720 --> 1:15:28.840 you'd see Democratic campaigns painting is a scary Mormon or 1:15:29.800 --> 1:15:34.040 the ads implying and you don't even have that level 1:15:34.080 --> 1:15:38.640 of religious antipathy in Ukraine. It's it's it's just a 1:15:38.760 --> 1:15:42.400 much more complicated We're actually talking about the problems of 1:15:42.439 --> 1:15:45.360 the far right and and a fascism, you know, in Ukraine. 1:15:45.360 --> 1:15:48.320 It's a much more complicated story than a lot of 1:15:48.360 --> 1:15:51.760 people on you know, social media or whatnot want to 1:15:51.800 --> 1:15:54.280 give it credit to, because it's just easy to some 1:15:54.400 --> 1:15:57.400 things up in one sentence and not have to care 1:15:57.960 --> 1:16:01.120 about a looming humanitarian catash strophie. But that is what 1:16:01.160 --> 1:16:04.559 we are looking at. If this invasion, it will be bad. 1:16:05.040 --> 1:16:08.680 If Russia uses active forces in order to take the 1:16:08.720 --> 1:16:12.880 remainder of those two provinces from the Ukrainian government, it 1:16:12.960 --> 1:16:18.519 will be a nightmare of almost unimaginable consequence. If the 1:16:18.600 --> 1:16:22.840 invasion proceeds on the wider scale that is possible at 1:16:22.840 --> 1:16:28.960 this point. Um and no, no, please, yeah, UM. I've 1:16:28.960 --> 1:16:32.320 been a dumor on this basically since I first heard 1:16:32.320 --> 1:16:36.559 about the build up. Um because Putin has made it 1:16:36.640 --> 1:16:39.400 very clear over the years what he considers Ukraine to be. 1:16:39.479 --> 1:16:42.960 Like you mentioned, he doesn't think that Ukraine should exist 1:16:43.200 --> 1:16:49.320 as like a polity. Um. And as a result, I 1:16:49.400 --> 1:16:52.400 have pretty much this whole time been pretty sure that 1:16:52.439 --> 1:16:55.320 he's going to attack you. UM. And now we're coming 1:16:55.360 --> 1:17:00.160 to a very definite tipping point. Um. Just today put 1:17:00.240 --> 1:17:03.320 has made a lot of moves, UM. Like you mentioned, 1:17:03.360 --> 1:17:08.040 he authorized military force to be used um in the 1:17:08.080 --> 1:17:11.000 Damas and actually he's gone further. He's authorized military force 1:17:11.120 --> 1:17:15.000 to be used abroad, UH, which I mean obviously that 1:17:15.000 --> 1:17:18.639 means Ukraine. Where else that's where his like the about 1:17:18.760 --> 1:17:22.960 I think seventy of the entire Russian army is currently 1:17:23.000 --> 1:17:26.599 around Ukraine or close enough that they can reinforce um 1:17:26.760 --> 1:17:30.080 without a lot of ye, at least of the active duty, 1:17:30.080 --> 1:17:34.639 because the Russian military there's a smaller actually competent, right 1:17:34.720 --> 1:17:40.160 yeah yeah, yes, yeah, but the professional the contract soldiers yes, um. 1:17:40.240 --> 1:17:45.640 And especially on the northern border, Uh, there are a 1:17:45.720 --> 1:17:50.120 lot of battalion tact groups that are basically sitting and waiting, 1:17:50.160 --> 1:17:53.720 I guess for whatever the order will be eventually, um. 1:17:53.760 --> 1:17:59.280 And in Belarus, and since Putin has given this authorization 1:17:59.320 --> 1:18:03.320 to operate a rod and he stated that he recognizes 1:18:03.439 --> 1:18:06.960 these puppet authorities as I qual him um, that he 1:18:07.000 --> 1:18:11.719 recognizes their borders as the entirety of the Donetsk luconsk 1:18:12.080 --> 1:18:15.360 oh BLUs, which again only a third of those territories 1:18:15.400 --> 1:18:18.320 are under the de facto control of the public authorities. 1:18:19.200 --> 1:18:22.920 Two thirds of both provinces are still under Ukrainian government control, 1:18:23.880 --> 1:18:28.320 including the the critical port city of Marineople. And now 1:18:28.360 --> 1:18:31.160 that Putin has authorized forced to be used abroad, well, 1:18:33.439 --> 1:18:37.600 it's kind of I mean, at least it is incredibly 1:18:37.720 --> 1:18:40.240 obvious to me what the next steps are from the 1:18:40.280 --> 1:18:43.559 Russian perspective if I want to subjugate you, right, um, 1:18:44.320 --> 1:18:47.960 And I think a big failing here is people in 1:18:48.120 --> 1:18:51.559 the West, especially the western left. Um, no, very little 1:18:52.160 --> 1:18:56.639 of for example, the Chechian Wars, especially the Second War, 1:18:56.880 --> 1:19:02.360 and what happened to Rosnie. Yeah, um, Africa during that war, 1:19:02.439 --> 1:19:05.680 and what the Russians did the subjects that population. And 1:19:06.560 --> 1:19:10.280 if anyone thinks that Putin treasures Ukrainian lives any more 1:19:10.280 --> 1:19:13.040 than he did Chechen lives, then I've got a bridge 1:19:13.080 --> 1:19:16.080 of the protosylum. Though you should act now because the 1:19:16.160 --> 1:19:18.920 valley's gonna drop real fast. Yeah. And it's one of 1:19:18.960 --> 1:19:23.559 those if you, as a good leftist, have spent a 1:19:23.600 --> 1:19:26.719 significant amount of time reading about the horrific crimes of 1:19:26.720 --> 1:19:30.160 of imperialist nations in Africa and Southeast Asia. In the 1:19:30.200 --> 1:19:36.200 America's UM. What the Russian Federation did there is on 1:19:36.240 --> 1:19:39.439 that scale. It's it's absolutely on that scale. It was. 1:19:39.640 --> 1:19:46.559 It was a titanically ugly war. UM. And any modernly 1:19:46.640 --> 1:19:49.640 we can look at what they did in Syria or 1:19:49.680 --> 1:19:52.320 what they are doing in Syria, what they continue to 1:19:52.360 --> 1:19:56.040 do in Syria. UM. But as it turns out, UM, 1:19:56.320 --> 1:19:59.519 Syrians learned this lesson that I am learning now abou 1:20:00.120 --> 1:20:05.200 portions of the UM Western left a long time ago. Yeah, 1:20:05.240 --> 1:20:08.160 which is that if you can find, for example, some 1:20:08.240 --> 1:20:13.160 Syrian rebels who are shitty and Islamists or whatever, you 1:20:13.200 --> 1:20:16.280 can tear every single person whoever stood up against Bashar 1:20:16.360 --> 1:20:20.080 al assad as A as a terrorist UM, which is 1:20:20.160 --> 1:20:23.559 really easy, especially if you're getting paid Kremlin money to 1:20:23.920 --> 1:20:27.880 advance that line and you your name is Ben Norton. 1:20:30.080 --> 1:20:33.360 This brings us to the place where there really aren't 1:20:33.640 --> 1:20:36.599 clear answers, which is like what can be done? And 1:20:36.600 --> 1:20:40.240 it is one of those things where it's like, well, uh, 1:20:40.280 --> 1:20:42.840 that's not an easy question, because you do have to 1:20:42.920 --> 1:20:45.040 when you start grappling with like all right, well, like 1:20:45.240 --> 1:20:49.320 should what should NATO do? What should other European non 1:20:49.400 --> 1:20:53.440 NATO nations do? Like what what what is actually capable 1:20:53.960 --> 1:20:58.320 of like potentially altering or disrupting the courses of action 1:20:58.360 --> 1:21:01.280 here while we're talking about the Russian state, which has 1:21:01.400 --> 1:21:04.720 a lot of nukes, Um, we're talking about a situation 1:21:04.760 --> 1:21:06.840 that could spiral out of control in a way that 1:21:07.000 --> 1:21:12.040 very few situations globally are capable of potentially spiring spiraling 1:21:12.040 --> 1:21:15.080 out of control. And so it is a not a 1:21:15.120 --> 1:21:18.120 situation where anyone who tells you this is clearly the 1:21:18.200 --> 1:21:20.759 thing to do that will work, is I think trying 1:21:20.760 --> 1:21:24.640 to is probably full of ship and a little unhinged um, 1:21:24.640 --> 1:21:28.880 because this is a real fucking ugly one. Um. But 1:21:29.880 --> 1:21:32.160 some of what has been done. Um, we just got 1:21:32.240 --> 1:21:34.720 the news today that I think we both found surprising, 1:21:34.720 --> 1:21:37.880 but it is very positive that the Germans have canceled 1:21:38.400 --> 1:21:41.120 construction of the Nord Stream to pipeline, which is a 1:21:41.160 --> 1:21:45.760 gas pipeline from Russia into the EU. Um that a 1:21:45.800 --> 1:21:47.880 lot of folks were saying Germany was not going to 1:21:47.960 --> 1:21:51.200 take any sort of stances, solid stances on Ukraine's behalf 1:21:51.240 --> 1:21:54.640 because of that pipeline, Because of how Germany, along with 1:21:54.680 --> 1:21:57.879 a lot of Western Europe, is tremendously reliant upon Russian 1:21:57.880 --> 1:22:00.920 gas exports. Um, for just like keep themselves heated in 1:22:00.960 --> 1:22:05.320 the winter. UM. So that's a positive move. I I 1:22:05.400 --> 1:22:09.360 tend to be critical of the ability of sanctions to 1:22:09.479 --> 1:22:12.680 do much. UM. And if we're looking historically at sanctions, 1:22:13.080 --> 1:22:16.280 particularly how they're most often implied, they have a tendency 1:22:16.360 --> 1:22:18.559 to just harm regular people more than they have to 1:22:18.600 --> 1:22:19.920 do it. Like we can look at the sanctions in 1:22:19.960 --> 1:22:23.320 Iraq right which which we're part of why something like 1:22:23.360 --> 1:22:27.639 a million people starved. Um. We are talking about different 1:22:27.760 --> 1:22:29.960 kinds of sanctions in general, and we're talking about the 1:22:30.000 --> 1:22:33.400 sanctions being imposed by NATO countries against the Russian state 1:22:33.479 --> 1:22:37.960 right now. They're largely sanctions against members of the Duma. UM, 1:22:38.000 --> 1:22:41.840 There's there's a lot. It's not the same as looking 1:22:41.840 --> 1:22:45.160 at like what was being done to Saddam's Iraq. That said, 1:22:45.200 --> 1:22:48.800 I'm still very hesitant to say I think that sanctions 1:22:48.800 --> 1:22:51.799 are going to disrupt Putin's course of action. I'm curious 1:22:51.800 --> 1:22:55.519 what you think can and should be done here, you know, 1:22:55.640 --> 1:22:58.479 like what is do you have any kind of clear 1:22:58.560 --> 1:23:00.800 idea in your own head about what might have a 1:23:00.840 --> 1:23:05.360 disruptive effect on on what Putin is doing? Learned to 1:23:05.400 --> 1:23:07.680 teleport and shoot Putin in the head with a nimillionator. 1:23:08.280 --> 1:23:10.439 I mean that would be that would be great. There's 1:23:10.439 --> 1:23:15.680 a can we that had we that teleportation capacity, there 1:23:15.680 --> 1:23:18.640 would be a list. You know, we never put my 1:23:18.680 --> 1:23:24.320 skill points into that. UM. But realistically speaking, the Russian 1:23:24.360 --> 1:23:26.920 state is authoritarian. It doesn't really care what its own 1:23:26.960 --> 1:23:31.320 citizens think. It definitely doesn't care what other people think. However, UM, 1:23:31.439 --> 1:23:36.880 Russia has been, at least in um the modern realm, 1:23:36.920 --> 1:23:43.360 relatively image conscious UM, which is why I think one 1:23:43.439 --> 1:23:46.639 thing that could work, for example or not, could work, 1:23:46.720 --> 1:23:52.000 but would perhaps force the Russian state to consider its 1:23:52.040 --> 1:23:54.839 actions a little bit more carefully. And I want to 1:23:54.880 --> 1:23:56.920 be very clear when I talk about the Russian state, 1:23:56.920 --> 1:24:01.120 I'm talking about Putin himself. Yeah, the government, he has 1:24:01.160 --> 1:24:06.200 no there's no like other decision makers in Russia. And 1:24:06.240 --> 1:24:10.880 that was actually perfectly encapsulated UM during his speech the 1:24:10.880 --> 1:24:15.760 other day where he just outright, um like eviscerated the 1:24:15.800 --> 1:24:19.200 head of his foreign intelligence service. I'm live TV for 1:24:20.120 --> 1:24:23.560 the whole world to see just utterly humiliated the guy 1:24:23.600 --> 1:24:27.599 for no real reason, just because he can and you 1:24:27.640 --> 1:24:32.040 could see that. And we're talking about Russia's top spy. 1:24:32.080 --> 1:24:36.880 I mean, beyond Puttin himself stammering like a frightened school 1:24:36.960 --> 1:24:40.479 child when Puttin addressed him, just with just a hint 1:24:40.479 --> 1:24:43.080 of sharpness. Um. So when I say to the Russians, say, 1:24:43.120 --> 1:24:46.559 I'm referring literally to the body in person of of 1:24:46.560 --> 1:24:52.160 of Vladiman Puttin. Um, and like, honestly, yeah, I would 1:24:52.240 --> 1:24:55.400 love to see people pick it Russian embassies and make 1:24:55.439 --> 1:24:59.880 demonstrations and marches and so on. Um do I think 1:25:00.160 --> 1:25:04.080 will have a practical, real effect, to be honest. No, 1:25:04.200 --> 1:25:09.200 same with the sanctions. Um, I'm sure Putin's pet oligarchs 1:25:09.439 --> 1:25:14.240 and members of his party and the uh the people 1:25:14.400 --> 1:25:18.480 that in theory keep him in power. Um, the oligarchs, 1:25:18.680 --> 1:25:23.400 the the prolmentarians, the mafia lords and so on. I'm 1:25:23.439 --> 1:25:25.960 sure they're gonna be pretty mift if their yachts and 1:25:26.040 --> 1:25:29.799 their multimillion dollar properties in Miami and New York, in London, 1:25:29.920 --> 1:25:33.160 and the villainism the French Riviera when when all that 1:25:33.200 --> 1:25:36.960 gets taken, I'm sure they'll they'll be pretty annoyed. Um. 1:25:37.000 --> 1:25:40.200 But I don't think Putin cares. I think that he 1:25:40.320 --> 1:25:47.759 has a really irrational um desire to subjugate Kiev, specifically, Um, 1:25:47.800 --> 1:25:52.920 he sees Kiev as Um what we call in Russian 1:25:53.000 --> 1:25:56.719 the mother of all Russian cities. Yeah, it's the um, 1:25:56.880 --> 1:26:00.400 the mainplace of the Kivan Ruce. Yeah, the word Russian 1:26:00.479 --> 1:26:03.720 comes from Kievan rus you know, exactly exactly. And I 1:26:03.800 --> 1:26:08.519 just don't think that Putin is going to turn away 1:26:08.560 --> 1:26:12.680 from that goal because a couple of his buddies are 1:26:12.720 --> 1:26:15.360 complaining that they're mega yachts got taken in by the 1:26:15.400 --> 1:26:18.679 British authorities or whatever. Nor do I think they're gonna 1:26:18.880 --> 1:26:20.759 care that. You know, there are a couple of marchers 1:26:20.760 --> 1:26:23.240 outside of embassies in New York or something. Um, but 1:26:23.960 --> 1:26:26.800 that may help spur the world as a whole, the 1:26:26.840 --> 1:26:31.320 international community into taking a harder line stance against because 1:26:31.360 --> 1:26:34.360 timing comes time and again. Um, Like, the guy's a gangster, 1:26:34.680 --> 1:26:37.280 he's he's like a security service thug. If you've ever 1:26:37.960 --> 1:26:42.960 like interacted with like a petty like sergeant, police sergeant 1:26:43.040 --> 1:26:46.360 or something that has just a bit of authority and 1:26:46.439 --> 1:26:48.960 pretty much show immunity that that's put into a t 1:26:49.800 --> 1:26:54.400 um the dude thinks he's over educated, uh and the 1:26:54.439 --> 1:26:58.679 cleverest manble Yeah, I think, but reality, the way he talks, 1:26:58.680 --> 1:27:01.240 in the way he's acts, he's just a bull. He's 1:27:01.320 --> 1:27:04.560 he's he's got the same basic personality as like Villanueva, 1:27:04.680 --> 1:27:08.360 you know, the fucking head of the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department. 1:27:08.360 --> 1:27:10.960 He's like, not like a beat cop, but like one 1:27:11.000 --> 1:27:13.080 of the cops who rises to run a union or 1:27:13.120 --> 1:27:18.080 run a city police department. Yeah, he's good at consolidating power. 1:27:18.200 --> 1:27:21.599 He's good at at exercising or organizing others to exercise 1:27:21.680 --> 1:27:23.800 violence on his behalf. But yeah, at the end of 1:27:23.800 --> 1:27:26.240 the day, he is primarily a bully. And it's one 1:27:26.280 --> 1:27:31.320 of those Um, I don't know. Like when it comes 1:27:31.360 --> 1:27:37.960 to arms shipments, that is a historically Again, if you 1:27:38.000 --> 1:27:42.280 look at the history of particular like let's just say 1:27:42.280 --> 1:27:46.400 specifically NATO shipping arms places most of the time, that 1:27:46.439 --> 1:27:49.679 does not improve the situation for people in that country. 1:27:49.720 --> 1:27:52.759 That that has been a historical reality of arms Shipment's 1:27:52.760 --> 1:27:55.120 not just with NATO as a general rule everywhere, when 1:27:55.120 --> 1:27:57.679 you ship more guns into an area, that that rarely 1:27:58.120 --> 1:28:02.599 improves quality of life. Um. But we are not talking 1:28:02.640 --> 1:28:08.400 about a country that has had any kind of centralized 1:28:08.439 --> 1:28:11.200 political legitimacy or what not collapse. You're not talking about 1:28:11.240 --> 1:28:13.080 a country that is in the middle of tearing itself 1:28:13.120 --> 1:28:17.479 apart between thirty or forty different sides. Um. It's not 1:28:17.600 --> 1:28:20.559 the same situation as while at ship a bunch of 1:28:20.560 --> 1:28:24.400 guns to Libya, you know. Um, it just isn't there 1:28:24.400 --> 1:28:28.720 different histories, different political realities on the ground. I don't 1:28:28.760 --> 1:28:31.360 know that I actually think any amount of arms shipments 1:28:31.520 --> 1:28:37.040 would dissuade Putin from advancing either. Um, But I I 1:28:37.080 --> 1:28:40.200 don't know what else to do. I certainly am not 1:28:40.280 --> 1:28:42.560 against the idea of like, Okay, guys have some A 1:28:42.680 --> 1:28:44.880 G T M s, you know, have some wire guided missiles, 1:28:44.880 --> 1:28:48.400 have some javelins, um, because like, what else are you 1:28:48.400 --> 1:28:51.439 gonna do? Um? I mean, we're not going to And 1:28:51.479 --> 1:28:54.000 I'm certainly not saying we should send US troops in 1:28:54.320 --> 1:29:00.120 um because again we have to consider the nuclear situation too. Um. 1:29:00.400 --> 1:29:03.760 What do you think is where are your thoughts there? Um? 1:29:03.800 --> 1:29:06.960 Because this is something that I I'm very I'm very 1:29:07.040 --> 1:29:10.240 mixed on, although again I'm broadly fine with Yeah, I mean, 1:29:10.280 --> 1:29:14.599 at least give people the ability to fight back. Yeah, 1:29:14.680 --> 1:29:19.519 it's a difficult one, especially like you noted, the military 1:29:19.560 --> 1:29:23.519 industrial complex has very rarely improved any situation in the 1:29:23.520 --> 1:29:28.560 world anywhere. Yep, this might be one of the few exceptions, UM, 1:29:28.600 --> 1:29:33.120 because the fact is that Ukraine doesn't really have the 1:29:33.160 --> 1:29:36.439 tools to defend these to defend ourselves we have UM, 1:29:36.640 --> 1:29:39.040 or at least our government claims that we have the 1:29:39.080 --> 1:29:41.080 strongest army in Europe, which, to be honest, with all 1:29:41.160 --> 1:29:44.479 the defense cuts that Europe can come made, that may 1:29:44.520 --> 1:29:47.400 be true at least on the ground sense. Certainly the 1:29:47.439 --> 1:29:51.240 most combat experienced army and here yeah, absolutely UM. But 1:29:51.320 --> 1:29:55.800 what we lack entirely is air power and air defense UM. 1:29:55.840 --> 1:29:58.600 And what Russia has in spades is air power and 1:29:58.640 --> 1:30:02.679 air defense. And as we saw UM when the US 1:30:03.280 --> 1:30:07.880 invaded Rock, Well, you can destroy conventional army in a 1:30:07.960 --> 1:30:11.000 couple of days by just bombing the ship out of 1:30:11.000 --> 1:30:14.960 it uh. And the Russians have quite a few missiles 1:30:15.760 --> 1:30:19.040 UM aimed straight at Kiev UH, and quite a view 1:30:19.080 --> 1:30:22.280 planes waiting on standby, I presume to bomb the ship 1:30:22.320 --> 1:30:25.120 out of Kiev UH. And it would be nice to 1:30:25.200 --> 1:30:29.599 have some way to to defend ourselves against that UM. 1:30:29.680 --> 1:30:32.880 But again there's there's not much that can be said. Yeah, 1:30:32.920 --> 1:30:35.920 of course, stingers and javelins and so on, UM. That 1:30:36.040 --> 1:30:39.840 will all help raise the costs of the occupation. That 1:30:39.920 --> 1:30:45.040 follows the initial bombardment. But if Putin goes for the 1:30:45.080 --> 1:30:48.960 strategy that ASSAD has used in Syria, which is bomb 1:30:49.080 --> 1:30:52.240 the living ship out of every civilian um residential area 1:30:52.280 --> 1:30:55.160 in the city until the people just submit or are 1:30:55.200 --> 1:30:59.040 all dead, um, well, there's not really too much we 1:30:59.080 --> 1:31:02.960 can do about that. And that is like, there is 1:31:03.000 --> 1:31:08.560 a lot that individual that that trained and motivated soldiers 1:31:08.680 --> 1:31:13.519 with small arms and munitions like javelins can do even 1:31:13.560 --> 1:31:17.840 to resist a country with with overwhelming air power. The 1:31:18.120 --> 1:31:21.960 corollary to that is that in doing that a lot 1:31:22.000 --> 1:31:25.599 of stuff everyone around them dies. The city has turned 1:31:25.640 --> 1:31:28.200 into a graveyard. Um. I've I've seen that with my 1:31:28.240 --> 1:31:32.640 own eyes. And that's that's I mean, got to be 1:31:32.680 --> 1:31:35.080 the thing if you're looking at this with any kind 1:31:35.120 --> 1:31:37.920 of reasonable lies and not just like trying to find 1:31:38.160 --> 1:31:41.599 a political angle to support, that has to be your 1:31:41.640 --> 1:31:45.720 main concern is that the potential here is for a 1:31:45.720 --> 1:31:49.200 tremendous loss of life and also for the creation of 1:31:49.280 --> 1:31:52.920 millions of refugees. Um. And this is something in another 1:31:53.760 --> 1:31:57.559 of audio clip that you published a bit earlier on Twitter, 1:31:58.160 --> 1:32:01.400 you say, which is that like, if the goes as 1:32:01.439 --> 1:32:04.920 badly as it can, no matter what your politics are, 1:32:05.120 --> 1:32:10.440 this will become your problem. Yeah. I stand behind that absolutely, 1:32:10.520 --> 1:32:16.800 because there are a lot of Ukrainians and while most 1:32:16.880 --> 1:32:20.360 of us have no desire to live under the Russian yoke, 1:32:21.080 --> 1:32:24.160 the majority of us are not trained fighters. Were just people, 1:32:24.840 --> 1:32:27.960 just regular people. And I know, especially in the US, 1:32:28.520 --> 1:32:33.560 um with our like out of control gun culture, imagining 1:32:34.080 --> 1:32:37.160 like they're the singular guy, you know, they're they're the 1:32:37.160 --> 1:32:41.360 macho man with with all the guns. They take down 1:32:41.360 --> 1:32:45.120 the government all by themselves. I'm sorry, it's a fantasy. 1:32:45.160 --> 1:32:48.679 It's a fiction. Um, that is not how things work. Uh. 1:32:48.720 --> 1:32:53.559 And quite frankly, most people are not psychologically suited to combat. 1:32:53.800 --> 1:32:56.840 That's why armies take so long to break soldiers down 1:32:56.920 --> 1:32:59.120 to teach them to murder people, because that is not 1:32:59.200 --> 1:33:03.920 something humans do. Actually, and the majority of people subjected 1:33:03.960 --> 1:33:07.040 to that kind of violence will run. And again there 1:33:07.080 --> 1:33:10.160 are forty four million of us, and they will run 1:33:10.240 --> 1:33:12.920 and run and run. Pretty much everyone in the world. 1:33:13.000 --> 1:33:16.000 You saw this with Syria, sell this with Libya. Um, 1:33:16.280 --> 1:33:18.320 you've seen this pretty much with every single place that 1:33:18.640 --> 1:33:21.920 has experienced massive violence in the modern world. Um, that's 1:33:21.960 --> 1:33:25.280 the reaction. Yeah, and it's when we run, we bring 1:33:25.720 --> 1:33:29.360 all of our biases and problems and cultural predilections to 1:33:29.560 --> 1:33:36.160 you m hm. And it's yeah, I mean that's that's 1:33:36.200 --> 1:33:39.559 really the note to end on and it is you 1:33:39.600 --> 1:33:43.240 get a lot of folks you know who who rightly 1:33:43.439 --> 1:33:46.240 you know, focus on and think a lot about revolutionary 1:33:46.240 --> 1:33:50.280 struggles in places like Vietnam and um in an Afghanistan 1:33:50.360 --> 1:33:52.880 and will point out that like, well, you don't need 1:33:52.960 --> 1:33:58.439 to have as advanced to military as your opponent to win. 1:33:58.720 --> 1:34:02.559 And again, just the corallarity to that, all, Yeah, the 1:34:02.600 --> 1:34:05.680 corellary to that is that like, yeah, but millions of 1:34:05.800 --> 1:34:09.160 people die. Millions of people died in Afghanistan, millions of 1:34:09.200 --> 1:34:14.240 people died in Vietnam. Um, that's that, that is the reality. Yeah, 1:34:14.280 --> 1:34:18.280 you can resist an imperial power with minimal technology, but 1:34:18.560 --> 1:34:21.000 you're not going to leave that fight with a family 1:34:21.040 --> 1:34:26.439 alive still, you know, Like that's that's how it goes. Um. 1:34:26.479 --> 1:34:34.160 So let's all say a little prayer for I don't know, peace, Uh, 1:34:34.320 --> 1:34:40.920 I hope the worst doesn't happen. Um. What has there 1:34:40.960 --> 1:34:44.920 been kind of mobilization that you've seen within the the 1:34:45.040 --> 1:34:49.320 activist the anarchist community in in Kiev, um too? You know, 1:34:49.360 --> 1:34:51.080 any kind of mutual aid stuff like or is it 1:34:51.120 --> 1:34:54.519 just one of those situations where it hasn't started happening 1:34:54.600 --> 1:34:56.920 yet and nobody really knows what would even be useful 1:34:56.960 --> 1:35:01.960 to do if it does. I'll see this, Um. It 1:35:02.080 --> 1:35:04.760 may come as a little bit of a shock, but 1:35:04.880 --> 1:35:12.439 anarchists not typically the best organized. UM. Specifically like a 1:35:12.439 --> 1:35:15.519 lot of my uh the friends who are active in 1:35:15.560 --> 1:35:19.920 the anarchist um movement in Ukraine have simply joined the 1:35:20.040 --> 1:35:24.960 territorial defense battalions or the regular army and will simply 1:35:24.960 --> 1:35:30.200 fight as soldiers. UM. There has been a very strong 1:35:32.040 --> 1:35:35.920 I don't know if you called denial UM. A colleague 1:35:35.920 --> 1:35:38.280 of mine used the term doomed optimism, and I really 1:35:38.280 --> 1:35:39.479 like the sound of that, so let's go with that. 1:35:39.960 --> 1:35:42.960 There's been this really strong doomed optimism amongst Ukrainians that 1:35:43.040 --> 1:35:45.719 the worst will not happen and there's no real reason 1:35:45.800 --> 1:35:48.680 to prepare for anything, because well, things are going to 1:35:48.760 --> 1:35:52.280 be fine, um. And that's what our government tells us 1:35:52.320 --> 1:35:54.360 as well, things are going to be fine. They don't 1:35:54.360 --> 1:35:57.960 see any massive attack groups or I mean, I feel 1:35:58.000 --> 1:36:00.760 like that's contradicted by the the opens intelligence that I've 1:36:00.760 --> 1:36:04.479 been looking at. But I I am just one guy. 1:36:04.600 --> 1:36:10.160 I obviously don't have intelligence apparatus of a nation state. UM. 1:36:10.200 --> 1:36:14.759 So I mean maybe they're right, Um, but generally speaking, 1:36:14.800 --> 1:36:19.280 people have just been joining the army, going to um 1:36:19.320 --> 1:36:23.479 tactical trainings. Um. But this is all very basic stuff 1:36:23.479 --> 1:36:25.960 like going the woods, learn how to set up camp 1:36:26.120 --> 1:36:30.960 and you know, clean a rifle kind of kind of things. UM. 1:36:31.080 --> 1:36:33.920 Nothing like combat training, because where would you get that 1:36:33.960 --> 1:36:36.639 except by joining the army and going to the front. Yeah, 1:36:36.680 --> 1:36:39.000 it's the kind of training that might keep in the 1:36:39.000 --> 1:36:41.040 event of a full conflict when out of ten of 1:36:41.080 --> 1:36:43.120 those people alive long enough to learn how to fight, 1:36:43.439 --> 1:36:46.160 and and that might be worth it. Yeah, I mean yeah, 1:36:46.240 --> 1:36:49.240 if you're talking about like, yes, not not to say 1:36:49.360 --> 1:36:53.200 people shouldn't be doing that, because people should do whatever 1:36:53.200 --> 1:36:58.200 they can. Um, how are you kindada close out like 1:36:58.320 --> 1:37:02.519 as this Like doom scrolling is the thing we all 1:37:02.520 --> 1:37:05.240 talk about, and there's there's plenty image sitting here in Portland. 1:37:05.320 --> 1:37:08.000 We just had a mass shooting on a protest this weekend, 1:37:08.040 --> 1:37:09.720 and so there's a lot of doom scrolling going on 1:37:09.760 --> 1:37:12.519 in my community. But we're not staring down the barrel 1:37:12.560 --> 1:37:17.160 of a hundred and ninety thousand soldiers, you know, potentially uh, 1:37:17.439 --> 1:37:21.360 hitting us from the air and ground simultaneously. How do 1:37:21.479 --> 1:37:25.200 you How are you like focusing on the stuff that 1:37:25.240 --> 1:37:27.040 you can do anything about and the stuff that you 1:37:27.040 --> 1:37:33.080 can productively handle without losing yourself in that opious amounts 1:37:33.080 --> 1:37:37.200 of cannabis. That's good. I'm glad you guys have decent 1:37:37.240 --> 1:37:41.639 pod access. Yeah. I actually don't know what I'll do if, um, 1:37:41.960 --> 1:37:46.760 if my current supplies got out to be quite honest, um, 1:37:46.800 --> 1:37:53.559 But I mean it's been definitely a struggle. Um. And 1:37:53.720 --> 1:37:56.680 the past couple of days, especially my mental health has 1:37:56.720 --> 1:38:05.840 not been especially great. Um. But again, I'm one dude, Like, 1:38:06.200 --> 1:38:09.160 I'm not in very good shape. I have or vision, 1:38:09.200 --> 1:38:11.800 one of my eyes don't work, I'm diabetic. Like, I'm 1:38:11.840 --> 1:38:14.080 not gonna go out and grab a rifle and start 1:38:14.160 --> 1:38:17.160 killing every rooskie I see, you know. Um. But at 1:38:17.160 --> 1:38:19.120 the same time, I've got a job to do. I 1:38:20.320 --> 1:38:24.320 as an English language journalist in Ukraine. Um, I have 1:38:24.840 --> 1:38:27.760 this is your busy season, Yeah, it's my busies. Like 1:38:29.080 --> 1:38:31.960 one of my jobs is to counter Russian distealinformation and 1:38:32.040 --> 1:38:35.519 to like tell people the truth of what is going 1:38:35.520 --> 1:38:39.120 on here. Um, And that role will only get more 1:38:39.160 --> 1:38:44.840 important if the the conflict expands, um from from the 1:38:45.360 --> 1:38:48.400 scope that it is now. Uh So how am I doing? Well? 1:38:48.439 --> 1:38:55.200 I'm still alive, um, having off myself and uh I'm 1:38:55.200 --> 1:38:58.920 still I'm still working. So I think as as good 1:38:58.920 --> 1:39:03.400 as I can be under the circumstances. Yeah yeah, Um, 1:39:03.520 --> 1:39:07.240 well I hope your weeds supply stays stable um at 1:39:07.240 --> 1:39:12.040 the very fucking fingers. Yeah. Um. All right, Well, thank 1:39:12.080 --> 1:39:14.479 you so much for coming on the show, Romeo. UM, 1:39:14.600 --> 1:39:16.040 do you have anything you want to plug kind of 1:39:16.080 --> 1:39:19.360 as we as we go out here? Um, just if 1:39:19.520 --> 1:39:23.679 you really want to know about what's going down in Ukraine, 1:39:24.360 --> 1:39:26.920 I am co host of the podcast called you Grain 1:39:26.960 --> 1:39:30.679 without Hype and find it on any podcast platform um. 1:39:30.680 --> 1:39:33.360 And if you really want to get a look out 1:39:33.680 --> 1:39:37.559 what's going on in English um with only a tinge 1:39:37.560 --> 1:39:42.080 of leftist bias, um, then tune in. You can follow 1:39:42.120 --> 1:39:45.320 us on Twitter Hype Ukraine um and again on any 1:39:45.360 --> 1:39:50.599 podcast platform that you you so desire. Awesome, Well check 1:39:50.640 --> 1:39:55.920 out Romeo there, check out this podcast, and you know, 1:39:56.360 --> 1:39:59.240 just try to keep your eyes on the situation and 1:40:00.640 --> 1:40:05.320 let yourself be uh overwhelmed by what some random person 1:40:05.320 --> 1:40:08.320 on Twitter tries to sum it up. As you know, 1:40:08.479 --> 1:40:19.360 people are more complicated than that. And we're live here 1:40:19.439 --> 1:40:22.800 outside the Perez family home, just waiting for the and 1:40:23.000 --> 1:40:25.960 there they go, almost on time. This morning. Mom is 1:40:26.040 --> 1:40:28.479 coming out the front door strong with a double arm 1:40:28.600 --> 1:40:31.400 kid carry. Looks like Dad has the bags. Daughter is 1:40:31.439 --> 1:40:35.560 bringing up the rear. Oh but the diaper bag wasn't closed. 1:40:35.680 --> 1:40:40.439 Diapers and toys are everywhere. Oh but Mom has just 1:40:40.680 --> 1:40:44.040 nailed the perfect car seat buckle for the toddler. And 1:40:44.120 --> 1:40:46.519 now the eldest daughter, who looks to be about nine 1:40:46.600 --> 1:40:49.400 or ten, has secured herself and the booster seat. Dad 1:40:49.520 --> 1:40:53.320 zips the bag clothes and they're off. Ah, but looks 1:40:53.360 --> 1:40:55.640 like Mom doesn't realize her coffee cup is still on 1:40:55.680 --> 1:41:00.200 the roof of the car, and there it goes. It's 1:41:00.240 --> 1:41:03.240 a shame that mug was a fan favorite. Don't sweat 1:41:03.240 --> 1:41:05.720 the small stuff. Just nailed the big stuff, like making 1:41:05.760 --> 1:41:07.559 sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right seat 1:41:07.600 --> 1:41:10.639 for their agent's eyes. Learn more. Nhtsa dot girl slash 1:41:10.640 --> 1:41:13.920 the right seed. Visit n h s a dot go 1:41:14.400 --> 1:41:16.920 slash the rain set right to you by Nitta and 1:41:16.960 --> 1:41:21.479 the head council. Hey, it's de Lieper I'm here to 1:41:21.479 --> 1:41:24.519 tell you about my brand new podcast, Deleper at your Service. 1:41:26.400 --> 1:41:28.960 I'll be sitting down with the world's most inspiring minds 1:41:29.000 --> 1:41:31.240 to uncover what makes them tick, what they've learned from 1:41:31.240 --> 1:41:36.400 their successes, failures, and the obstacles life has thrown at them. 1:41:36.479 --> 1:41:40.080 We're going deep with people revolutionizing not just their own industries, 1:41:40.240 --> 1:41:43.479 but also culture more broadly. From Least Today Oh, the 1:41:43.479 --> 1:41:46.439 author redefining what it means to tell women's stories, to 1:41:46.520 --> 1:41:52.320 the fashion industry virtuoso Olivier Roosting. You'll even hear me 1:41:52.400 --> 1:41:55.480 break bread with some of the most iconic and disseous 1:41:55.600 --> 1:41:58.920 names in pop culture, like Sir Elton John. After a 1:41:58.960 --> 1:42:01.600 lot of upsets, a lot of disappointments, a lot of betrayals, 1:42:01.840 --> 1:42:04.479 It's turned out to be the most wonderful life right 1:42:04.479 --> 1:42:07.040 now that I've could ever imagined. I can't wait to 1:42:07.040 --> 1:42:09.320 share all of this and more with you. Listen to 1:42:09.360 --> 1:42:11.559 do Really But at Your Service on the I Heart 1:42:11.640 --> 1:42:15.120 Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 1:42:23.000 --> 1:42:26.439 What grows in the forest trees, Sure you know what 1:42:26.560 --> 1:42:30.280 else grows in the forest, our imagination, our sense of wonder, 1:42:30.680 --> 1:42:33.880 and our family bonds grow too, because when we disconnect 1:42:33.920 --> 1:42:40.559 from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. 1:42:41.320 --> 1:42:44.200 The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest 1:42:44.320 --> 1:42:47.800 near you and start exploring. I discover the forest dot Org, 1:42:48.120 --> 1:42:50.720 brought to you by the United States Forest Service and 1:42:50.760 --> 1:43:02.640 the AD Council. It could happen here, coming to you 1:43:02.720 --> 1:43:08.560 live from my room in Chicago. But but importantly we 1:43:09.040 --> 1:43:10.800 were coming to your life, and it could happen here 1:43:10.840 --> 1:43:15.240 Central where the gamers have seized the pod. It is me, Christopher, 1:43:15.520 --> 1:43:21.960 it is Garrison. Hello, fellow gamer. Hello, and in the 1:43:22.120 --> 1:43:26.639 gaming trenches with my razor headset on, looking into my 1:43:27.040 --> 1:43:30.800 uh the video powered view flinder, and I'm ready to 1:43:30.840 --> 1:43:33.800 continue on the fight. It's gonna be great. We're talking 1:43:33.840 --> 1:43:37.559 about talking about gaming, We're talking about the military. We're 1:43:37.560 --> 1:43:40.200 talking about why the two of them crossing is extremely bad. 1:43:40.680 --> 1:43:44.639 And UH with us to talk about this are two 1:43:44.640 --> 1:43:49.320 people who are somewhat less clownish than we are. Um. 1:43:49.360 --> 1:43:51.840 This is Katie and Chris from Gamers for Peace, which 1:43:51.840 --> 1:43:54.600 is an initiative of Vesterans for Peace. We welcome to 1:43:54.600 --> 1:43:58.639 the show. Hello, Hey, thank you. I take a fensive 1:43:58.680 --> 1:44:02.840 game called less clown I'm just trying to live up 1:44:02.880 --> 1:44:05.920 to your standard. I'll have you know. I am very 1:44:06.000 --> 1:44:08.960 very clownish and clumsy and all of those good things, 1:44:08.960 --> 1:44:17.120 and he trusted me with weapons. Oh God. So I 1:44:17.160 --> 1:44:23.759 guess starting out, I want to talk about, I guess 1:44:23.880 --> 1:44:27.120 very generally the history of counter recruitment, because this is 1:44:27.160 --> 1:44:30.040 something that's been going on in the U. S. Military 1:44:30.400 --> 1:44:33.040 for I mean, it really is like from from what 1:44:33.080 --> 1:44:34.760 I could tell, like about as long as there's been, 1:44:34.960 --> 1:44:38.479 you know, recruitment for the military. But I was wondering 1:44:38.520 --> 1:44:41.840 if we could start I don't know, maybe maybe maybe 1:44:41.840 --> 1:44:45.240 around sort of the Vietnam era when you when there's 1:44:45.400 --> 1:44:48.800 you know, very very serious and intense sort of left 1:44:48.800 --> 1:44:52.200 wing kind of recruitments, and then we can go from there. Yeah. Yeah. 1:44:52.360 --> 1:44:57.240 So coming out of Vietnam, you have Vietnam veterans against 1:44:57.240 --> 1:45:02.960 the war forming UH and there's a massive pushback on uh, 1:45:03.080 --> 1:45:06.240 the draft. Uh. The anti war movement is pretty much 1:45:06.280 --> 1:45:10.000 at its strongest, and Vietnam veterans against the war over 1:45:10.040 --> 1:45:14.120 time becomes a veteran for peace. Veterans for Peace has 1:45:14.120 --> 1:45:16.880 a long legacy of sitting at the front of the 1:45:16.960 --> 1:45:22.719 anti war movement peace movement, participating in nuclear abolition work, 1:45:23.160 --> 1:45:27.439 kind of recruitment work, the escalation work out of Save 1:45:27.520 --> 1:45:31.000 Our v A, helping veterans get assistance with disability benefits 1:45:31.040 --> 1:45:35.599 and making sure that the traumas that veterans suffer and 1:45:35.640 --> 1:45:40.240 the communities of UM impacted by the military suffer are 1:45:40.320 --> 1:45:45.759 getting treatment for the care UH deported veterans because Vietnam 1:45:45.840 --> 1:45:48.800 that's served and then got deported, and that continues to 1:45:48.880 --> 1:45:54.919 this day. So Veterans for Peace at a multi pronged approached, 1:45:55.000 --> 1:46:00.639 the anti war efforts UH and UH two thousands, around 1:46:00.960 --> 1:46:06.639 UH two thousand seven, Ish Iraq Afghanistan Iraq Veterans Against 1:46:06.640 --> 1:46:09.240 the War later known as Iraq Afghanistan Veterans Against the 1:46:09.240 --> 1:46:11.400 War comes along, and that's a new generation of veterans 1:46:11.640 --> 1:46:15.080 carrying a long built on the legacy of Veterans for 1:46:15.120 --> 1:46:18.840 Peace and being non veterans against the war. UM. You know, 1:46:19.080 --> 1:46:22.760 there's a long history of coffee shops, g I Resistance 1:46:23.080 --> 1:46:29.679 UM Outreach doing work with veterans, trying constances objective object 1:46:29.760 --> 1:46:33.680 or work UM GI resisted work in in there, and 1:46:33.720 --> 1:46:37.360 there's just a long legacy of just veterans sharing their 1:46:37.400 --> 1:46:42.000 experiences and coming back and really ah wanting to make 1:46:42.000 --> 1:46:44.600 sure nobody else goes through that and making sure that 1:46:44.640 --> 1:46:48.080 they get the help they need and kind of slow 1:46:48.200 --> 1:46:50.720 that that beat of the war drum that seems to 1:46:51.400 --> 1:46:54.679 media seems to always be picking up. And that's where 1:46:54.720 --> 1:47:00.200 we came in. That's definitely a good way to put 1:47:00.200 --> 1:47:03.160 it now. UM, especially born out of the pandemic, a 1:47:03.160 --> 1:47:05.920 lot of the recruiting had to move online. They didn't 1:47:05.920 --> 1:47:08.120 really have if they wanted to keep recruiting, they had 1:47:08.160 --> 1:47:10.880 to go online, and that's where a majority of the 1:47:10.880 --> 1:47:13.519 newest generation is they are watching Twitch. Twitch had a 1:47:13.600 --> 1:47:18.519 viewership like pretty much competing with Netflix streaming UM as 1:47:18.520 --> 1:47:20.880 of this summer, and I'm sure that hasn't really changed much. 1:47:20.880 --> 1:47:23.680 I'm sure it is just as popular UM and the 1:47:23.720 --> 1:47:26.000 audience for twitch skews very young. So that's really what 1:47:26.160 --> 1:47:29.280 started to worry members of Veterans for Peace, like, Okay, 1:47:29.320 --> 1:47:32.760 we might need to ramp up truth and recruitment UM initiatives, 1:47:32.760 --> 1:47:35.599 which is what Games for Peace came out of. Because 1:47:35.640 --> 1:47:38.480 the thing is, if you're forming a paras social relationship 1:47:38.520 --> 1:47:42.200 with these younger kids by streaming and forming those laserships, 1:47:42.320 --> 1:47:45.120 getting them on discord and talking to them, you're getting 1:47:45.160 --> 1:47:47.720 a one sided view of what military services about, and 1:47:47.760 --> 1:47:52.439 you are definitely not getting the uh imperialist informed viewpoint 1:47:52.560 --> 1:47:55.920 for sure. Um, so Venomans repeace kind of came out 1:47:55.920 --> 1:48:00.880 of that. That's like very insidious looking, uh, hidden and 1:48:01.080 --> 1:48:04.360 subtle way of recruiting using the video games that have 1:48:04.479 --> 1:48:07.200 already historically been used for recruiting purposes. So it's like 1:48:07.200 --> 1:48:09.679 a double it's like a double way me. They got 1:48:09.680 --> 1:48:13.040 on us there for those not inundated in the game 1:48:13.120 --> 1:48:16.800 or warfare like we are. Um, how let's I think 1:48:16.800 --> 1:48:19.000 we should briefly describe what twitches because I know a 1:48:19.040 --> 1:48:23.920 lot of people probably probably isn't actually aware of of Twitch. 1:48:24.680 --> 1:48:27.599 That's whereas we are down in these trenches finding off 1:48:27.640 --> 1:48:35.120 the cyber net stoff bad sah um. Yeah, So I 1:48:35.120 --> 1:48:38.320 guess twitches like a live stream platform that is primarily 1:48:38.400 --> 1:48:42.960 used for live streaming people playing video games, and people 1:48:43.040 --> 1:48:46.360 kind of help their own like brands and like personalities 1:48:46.400 --> 1:48:49.479 and like para social relationships with an audience via them 1:48:49.479 --> 1:48:52.400 playing these games and kind of adding their commentary, you know, 1:48:52.520 --> 1:48:55.360 variety of games. You know, sometimes it's like mostly chatting 1:48:55.439 --> 1:48:58.040 with people like inside like a group chat while playing 1:48:58.040 --> 1:49:00.559 a game, um or you know, some of more focused 1:49:00.600 --> 1:49:04.240 on the game itself. It kind of varies, but yeah, 1:49:04.280 --> 1:49:06.720 it's a it's a it's it's arguably the biggest live 1:49:06.720 --> 1:49:08.920 streaming platform. I think it was brought by Amazon a 1:49:08.920 --> 1:49:13.080 few years ago. Um, and yes, there is a there 1:49:13.200 --> 1:49:16.080 is a US There's a there's a few US like 1:49:16.160 --> 1:49:22.599 military channels on there that are actually relatively popular. Um. 1:49:22.680 --> 1:49:24.360 I guess the other thing to kind of get into 1:49:24.439 --> 1:49:27.280 for some background is, like you mentioned, you already kind 1:49:27.280 --> 1:49:29.960 of alluded to this, but like the history of the U. 1:49:30.080 --> 1:49:34.880 S Military using video games for propaganda because they've been 1:49:35.640 --> 1:49:38.920 they've been one of like the earliest funders of games 1:49:38.960 --> 1:49:42.000 for this reason. I think getting into that history is 1:49:42.080 --> 1:49:45.280 like interesting, um and something that some people are definitely 1:49:45.320 --> 1:49:48.160 aware of, but a lot of times can get overlooked 1:49:48.200 --> 1:49:50.560 despite you know, Call of Duty being the one of 1:49:50.560 --> 1:49:54.160 the biggest video game franchises in the world. Yeah. Absolutely, 1:49:54.160 --> 1:49:58.599 the military and involvement in video game video can design 1:49:59.040 --> 1:50:02.080 using as recruitment, using it primary Initially, at first it 1:50:02.200 --> 1:50:04.880 was thought of as a training tool and they started 1:50:04.920 --> 1:50:07.679 looking at it for training. Um. If you think back 1:50:07.680 --> 1:50:12.040 to like early nineties Doom, the original Doom had a 1:50:12.160 --> 1:50:16.680 mod released, Uh, called the Marine mod It was a 1:50:16.720 --> 1:50:20.120 modification designed for the Marine Corps to use to train 1:50:20.200 --> 1:50:23.080 marines and as early as the early nineties when Doom 1:50:23.120 --> 1:50:26.880 was at its height, and then then that grows from there. 1:50:26.920 --> 1:50:30.040 You have First to Fight. Uh what is it? UH? 1:50:30.320 --> 1:50:33.439 Game called First to Fight features Marine Corps marines and 1:50:33.520 --> 1:50:37.080 dress blues where you're tactically uh, fighting a battle in 1:50:37.439 --> 1:50:40.280 um in which you never want to do. If you 1:50:40.280 --> 1:50:42.200 know anything about the Marine Corps Blues, you do not 1:50:42.400 --> 1:50:44.719 want to be doing anything in those that isn't getting 1:50:44.760 --> 1:50:50.000 drunk exactly. Drunk and dancing and blues is all they're 1:50:50.000 --> 1:50:53.160 good for. Um. Yeah, so you have you have a 1:50:53.200 --> 1:50:55.479 First to Fight and then it turns into Call of 1:50:55.560 --> 1:51:00.280 Duty America's Army, which thankfully just got pulled down all 1:51:00.360 --> 1:51:03.880 its platform from its platform. That's a huge win. But 1:51:03.960 --> 1:51:06.559 the Army started design getting into the development of video 1:51:06.560 --> 1:51:11.519 games for training, uh and then got into it for 1:51:11.680 --> 1:51:14.720 as recruiting, and America's Army is a perfect highlight of 1:51:14.800 --> 1:51:18.040 that where they just flat out had recruitment posters and 1:51:18.160 --> 1:51:21.479 training things uh in there with links to how to 1:51:21.520 --> 1:51:24.559 get to recruiters or get more information about joining the military. 1:51:24.840 --> 1:51:29.519 Joining the Army um, you have armor to uh, you 1:51:29.560 --> 1:51:34.440 could you could argue and draw the line from military 1:51:34.439 --> 1:51:37.840 training simulators to pub G Underground, which is one of 1:51:37.840 --> 1:51:41.960 the uh most biggest Battle Royale games, which is where 1:51:42.000 --> 1:51:45.320 you get Fortnite out of. So you can draw these 1:51:45.360 --> 1:51:49.040 lines straight from the military's involvement in designing training and 1:51:49.160 --> 1:51:53.559 recruitment materials to what our kids are playing the most 1:51:53.600 --> 1:51:57.000 these days. And really one of the most kind of 1:51:57.040 --> 1:52:01.400 sick factors of this is like how much games have 1:52:01.479 --> 1:52:06.680 been designed and pushed towards basically training people for um, 1:52:06.840 --> 1:52:09.280 like uh, I guess we're trying to think of the term, 1:52:09.360 --> 1:52:12.240 but like combat at a distance in terms of like 1:52:12.320 --> 1:52:15.360 drawing like drone combat, there's just like they started just 1:52:15.439 --> 1:52:20.240 using Xbox controllers for some like drone missions. Like like 1:52:20.439 --> 1:52:23.800 it's like they're specifically looking at the pipeline of specifically 1:52:23.880 --> 1:52:26.240 young males who get into this type of gaming and 1:52:26.280 --> 1:52:30.160 trying everything they can to push them into a career 1:52:30.160 --> 1:52:34.040 where they just kill people in overseas countries using the 1:52:34.080 --> 1:52:38.120 same technology, using you know, using video game controllers, using 1:52:38.200 --> 1:52:42.080 like you know, operating systems very similar to what we're 1:52:42.080 --> 1:52:44.320 being used in video games. And I mean like in 1:52:44.439 --> 1:52:46.840 video games are a very effective propaganda tool if you're 1:52:46.840 --> 1:52:49.679 thinking like, okay, I mean I just enjoy playing more games. 1:52:49.720 --> 1:52:51.840 It's not like, what's what's the big deal? Like sure, 1:52:51.920 --> 1:52:54.760 like I also enjoy playing war games. Sometimes they can 1:52:54.880 --> 1:52:56.920 be a fun um, you know, I like this, like 1:52:56.960 --> 1:52:59.400 tactics based games. But these have been shown to be 1:52:59.479 --> 1:53:01.680 very effective that recruitment, to the point that video game 1:53:01.680 --> 1:53:04.919 footage and video games were like one of isis favorite 1:53:05.320 --> 1:53:09.320 recruitment and propaganda tactics as well, like this is it's 1:53:09.320 --> 1:53:11.680 a it's a thing, like it's not it's not just 1:53:11.840 --> 1:53:14.639 like oh, it's fine, Like no, these these things are 1:53:14.680 --> 1:53:18.439 actually kind of a profit of Yeah. Um, they are 1:53:18.520 --> 1:53:20.719 very effective in that manner as a recruiting a tool, 1:53:20.760 --> 1:53:25.439 and there is a real synergy between gaming developers and 1:53:25.680 --> 1:53:29.160 the d o D because of how effective, uh you know, 1:53:29.240 --> 1:53:32.880 that recruiting can be, or the recruiting tool can be. Um. 1:53:32.920 --> 1:53:36.559 Similar to movies, you know, the military entertainment complex is 1:53:36.600 --> 1:53:39.360 a term thrown around a lot for good reason. You know, 1:53:39.600 --> 1:53:42.679 you have there is a black box of politics. Whenever 1:53:42.760 --> 1:53:45.960 you're watching a movie that picks uh yeah, some sort 1:53:46.000 --> 1:53:50.240 of power structure against whatever the villain is doing. There's there. 1:53:50.280 --> 1:53:53.200 There's always something there, and video games are not too 1:53:53.240 --> 1:53:55.160 different from that. You just have a little bit more 1:53:55.280 --> 1:53:57.320 say and where the story goes, but maybe not even 1:53:57.360 --> 1:54:00.400 it depends on the development. But um, there's article in 1:54:00.520 --> 1:54:04.000 in The Atlantic that was it was actually like about 1:54:04.000 --> 1:54:09.320 a book, um from because Dexter Thomas Warplay, and it's 1:54:09.320 --> 1:54:13.679 all about video gaming and the relationship with the military. 1:54:13.720 --> 1:54:16.680 And they said the Pentagon avoids pitiful, expensive efforts to 1:54:16.760 --> 1:54:19.839 create their own training simulators, and developers get fat government 1:54:19.920 --> 1:54:24.120 checks so they can help fund these new games, new 1:54:24.200 --> 1:54:27.839 virtual reality things under the guys of it being a 1:54:27.920 --> 1:54:32.840 useful training tool for training in like virtual virtual reality environments, 1:54:32.840 --> 1:54:37.360 which it scares me already. Um. And then game developers 1:54:37.360 --> 1:54:39.000 are like, great, I can get a government grant, so 1:54:39.040 --> 1:54:41.320 even if this flops, we still got the money out 1:54:41.320 --> 1:54:44.560 of it. That's not an uncommon phenomena. Yeah, I mean 1:54:44.680 --> 1:54:47.400 in terms of like filmmaking, Yeah, like there's been there's 1:54:47.480 --> 1:54:50.960 rules for like Pentagon contracts with film studios to be 1:54:51.000 --> 1:54:52.680 like if you want to use you know, u S 1:54:52.720 --> 1:54:55.640 military equipment or personality, to follow these specific rules to 1:54:55.680 --> 1:54:59.320 portray the military in this light, um, which often do 1:54:59.400 --> 1:55:01.919 get followed because people want to use the cool equipment 1:55:01.920 --> 1:55:04.120 and stuff. You know, I'm still angry that my that 1:55:04.160 --> 1:55:06.960 my beloved Transformers got cooked by the U. S. Military 1:55:07.000 --> 1:55:11.000 and all of their films um as a result of 1:55:11.040 --> 1:55:15.720 films are pretty pretty bad. Um yeah, I'll have you 1:55:15.800 --> 1:55:18.400 know they are film are you know? I'm sorry, I 1:55:18.440 --> 1:55:21.280 can't even keep you straight. I hope I as a 1:55:21.280 --> 1:55:25.320 as someone with many many star scream action figures, I 1:55:25.320 --> 1:55:31.600 I dream of one day of having good Transformers movies, classic, 1:55:32.040 --> 1:55:35.520 the you know, the eighties classic, Um, You've Got, You've 1:55:35.560 --> 1:55:38.920 Got the Touch, um, and the Bumblebee film is okay, 1:55:38.960 --> 1:55:41.040 but it's even still that one got cooked. That one 1:55:41.080 --> 1:55:45.480 got cooked by the military pretty pretty severely. Yes, it's 1:55:45.560 --> 1:55:51.240 it's funny that you mentioned isis using dr gaming. There's 1:55:51.280 --> 1:55:54.560 just a recent report came out. It's linked to the 1:55:54.680 --> 1:55:56.840 u N. I believe it's linked to the U N. 1:55:57.040 --> 1:56:00.960 Council on Counter Terrorism or Office counter Terrorism, uh, talking 1:56:01.080 --> 1:56:05.240 about violent extremism and gaming the link between video games 1:56:05.240 --> 1:56:07.480 and violent extremism. And what's really interesting is it's not 1:56:07.520 --> 1:56:10.320 so much that the video games themselves are the issue. 1:56:10.320 --> 1:56:12.760 It's the gaming adjacent space. It's it's the para social 1:56:12.800 --> 1:56:18.200 relationship development. It's the meme and it's the what what 1:56:18.280 --> 1:56:22.200 we've what we've known in the gaming world for a 1:56:22.200 --> 1:56:25.280 while as associated with like the behaviors and culture around 1:56:25.280 --> 1:56:29.560 gamer Gate and things things like that, where we see this, uh, 1:56:29.720 --> 1:56:35.879 this toxic culture that um is easy to cultivate inside 1:56:35.920 --> 1:56:40.960 these spaces and and be co opted for morna various things. UM. 1:56:41.040 --> 1:56:45.120 And that doesn't that's that doesn't mean that the military 1:56:45.160 --> 1:56:48.760 isn't banking or utilizing these same principles to to get 1:56:48.800 --> 1:56:55.000 its recruiting messages across. The military is another violent extreme position, right, 1:56:55.120 --> 1:56:58.840 You're whether it's you're the violent arm of capitalism and 1:56:59.040 --> 1:57:04.360 the state or or violently like domestic terrorists or something 1:57:04.400 --> 1:57:09.000 like that, you're still um opting into or your position 1:57:09.040 --> 1:57:14.360 is still getting mobilized towards potentially doing violence. And these 1:57:14.360 --> 1:57:18.280 gaming adjacent spaces are make it really easy for recruiters 1:57:18.280 --> 1:57:21.440 of all sorts to be in there and uh push 1:57:21.520 --> 1:57:24.600 people to more of that side of things. Yeah. One 1:57:24.600 --> 1:57:26.080 of the things I remember when I was like a 1:57:26.080 --> 1:57:28.600 teenager on Twitch was like, so I watched just like 1:57:28.600 --> 1:57:30.040 a lot of harsh Stone streams, right, and this is 1:57:30.120 --> 1:57:32.320 like these were you know, like completely main light hard 1:57:32.360 --> 1:57:35.680 stone streams, and there was there was this artist who 1:57:35.760 --> 1:57:39.560 everyone called Kebab the German and uh yeah, so it 1:57:39.560 --> 1:57:42.160 turns out that Cabab the German was a miss. It 1:57:42.200 --> 1:57:45.840 was like a shortening like abbreviation of his actual name, 1:57:45.840 --> 1:57:49.600 which was removed Kebab. And this guy's stuff was just 1:57:49.680 --> 1:57:54.120 being played on like every major like like Twitch, like 1:57:54.160 --> 1:57:56.080 all the major harshal streaments, which is playing groove of 1:57:56.120 --> 1:57:58.800 Kebab songs. And it was like and this this was 1:57:58.880 --> 1:58:01.200 just like what like this just what Twitch was in 1:58:01.320 --> 1:58:07.640 like and yeah, like there there's so much like the 1:58:07.640 --> 1:58:09.880 the the extent to which just this sort of like 1:58:10.560 --> 1:58:14.000 i mean just overtly fascist like melieu would just seep 1:58:14.040 --> 1:58:16.760 into just like you know, here's a bunch of people 1:58:16.760 --> 1:58:19.480 playing a card game and like it wasn't it wasn't 1:58:19.520 --> 1:58:21.800 even like like I mean, some of these streamers were 1:58:21.840 --> 1:58:24.080 like really reaction like I've seen I've seen t T 1:58:24.200 --> 1:58:28.240 streamers who like will like watch videos of like cops 1:58:28.240 --> 1:58:31.600 doing raid like raids on people's houses on stream. Like 1:58:32.040 --> 1:58:34.200 you know, it's like you have those people who are 1:58:34.200 --> 1:58:35.760 like really far right, but some of these people were 1:58:35.800 --> 1:58:37.120 just like I don't know, they're just a lot of 1:58:37.120 --> 1:58:42.160 them are just regular people. There's regular people themselves extremists. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 1:58:42.640 --> 1:58:46.000 there's just sort of curly Yeah. Well even then, like 1:58:46.000 --> 1:58:47.480 some of them just like I think with like like 1:58:47.520 --> 1:58:50.040 with with with with like with the Germans, like they 1:58:50.080 --> 1:58:52.240 just didn't know, like they just they just like didn't 1:58:52.600 --> 1:58:54.400 know what was going on, and so they were just 1:58:54.480 --> 1:58:56.480 you know, spreading all of this stuff and it was 1:58:56.560 --> 1:59:02.280 like it was horrifying. Yeah. Absolutely, And actually I'm glad 1:59:02.320 --> 1:59:04.920 you mentioned that because about a year ago, the Army 1:59:05.080 --> 1:59:07.760 Sports Channel got in trouble because one of the streamers 1:59:07.800 --> 1:59:11.400 didn't catch on to to there were two user names 1:59:11.440 --> 1:59:14.840 that were explicitly white supremacists. One of them was um 1:59:15.240 --> 1:59:19.120 six million was not enough. Yeah uh yeah yeah, real, 1:59:19.280 --> 1:59:21.720 real gross. And I guess like just in the whole 1:59:22.200 --> 1:59:25.320 idea of multitasking between playing a game, trying to interact 1:59:25.320 --> 1:59:27.280 with chat, and trying to make sure you're you're on 1:59:27.360 --> 1:59:30.120 screen and all of those things, they didn't realize it, 1:59:30.240 --> 1:59:32.560 or they willfully didn't realize it. I don't know which one, 1:59:32.600 --> 1:59:34.320 and I'm not going to make a judgment either way, 1:59:34.360 --> 1:59:36.440 but they did. They had to shut down that stream, 1:59:36.440 --> 1:59:37.800 and I don't think they streamed for a couple of 1:59:37.800 --> 1:59:40.880 weeks after that they had to like reassess some some 1:59:40.920 --> 1:59:44.800 things because they're like, hey, actively, you know, white supremacists 1:59:44.800 --> 1:59:47.320 people are on your stream, we should probably you should 1:59:47.320 --> 1:59:49.360 probably do something about that. And I feel like if 1:59:49.400 --> 1:59:52.400 you're the U. S Military streaming on Twitch, that someone's 1:59:52.520 --> 1:59:55.520 job should just be to prevent that from happening. Like yeah, 1:59:55.560 --> 1:59:59.160 but the resources, Yeah, but like they kind of have 1:59:59.240 --> 2:00:01.640 this problems, thou be because Twitch has a there's a 2:00:01.680 --> 2:00:05.280 there's a huge just like like core, like a large 2:00:05.400 --> 2:00:09.880 enough base of Twitch users are just like fascist or 2:00:09.920 --> 2:00:12.840 like hard right wingers that do things like like there 2:00:12.920 --> 2:00:15.000 there have been a persistent problem on Twitch for for 2:00:15.680 --> 2:00:19.040 years now of like these hate raids, like people doing 2:00:19.080 --> 2:00:22.280 mass raids on like anyone who's not white and anyone 2:00:22.360 --> 2:00:24.880 who's like not just white dude, and just like hate 2:00:24.960 --> 2:00:27.680 rating their channels and like spamming the chat with like 2:00:27.920 --> 2:00:32.760 slurs and stuff like that. And you know when when 2:00:33.080 --> 2:00:36.000 that's you know, and that that's too large, Like yeah, 2:00:36.000 --> 2:00:39.920 like those those are the people, like you know that 2:00:39.920 --> 2:00:42.600 that's a large enough part of Twitch that like even 2:00:42.680 --> 2:00:45.480 even even if you're like taking the most charitable thing, 2:00:45.560 --> 2:00:47.600 which is that the US, like the Army, is not 2:00:47.680 --> 2:00:50.880 overtly recruiting white supremacists, which like okay, but like even 2:00:50.920 --> 2:00:52.560 even if you give them the benefit of the doubt, 2:00:52.720 --> 2:00:54.600 right like that, that's a large enough part of just 2:00:54.960 --> 2:00:58.080 what twitch is that they haven't incentive in front of 2:00:58.080 --> 2:01:02.320 blind eye and and radically zation, specifically right wing and 2:01:02.360 --> 2:01:05.400 white nationalist radicalization in the military is well studied and 2:01:05.440 --> 2:01:08.560 well established as an existing phenomena. I knew someone personally 2:01:08.600 --> 2:01:13.760 who uh got caught trying to smuggle weapons for a 2:01:13.800 --> 2:01:18.120 New Nazi group, and that's all I'll say on that. Yeah, yeah, no, 2:01:18.240 --> 2:01:20.040 it is a thing, and it hits really close. It 2:01:20.120 --> 2:01:22.880 is definitely a phenomena that happens in the military, and um, 2:01:23.000 --> 2:01:26.720 these paramilitary New Nazi groups actively recruit from people coming 2:01:26.760 --> 2:01:28.800 out in the military because they have the training set 2:01:28.840 --> 2:01:32.960 they want. And I mean, I trying to figure out 2:01:33.000 --> 2:01:34.800 a way to tie this back to recruiting online, but 2:01:34.840 --> 2:01:36.640 it's like, with all of this in mind, it is 2:01:36.760 --> 2:01:40.680 very insidious that the target is explicitly young kids. And 2:01:40.880 --> 2:01:42.760 I'm not saying that just to be like, oh, you know, 2:01:42.800 --> 2:01:44.440 because we've got a lot of we've gotten pushed back 2:01:44.440 --> 2:01:46.960 with saying, well, the military doesn't recruit kids. They you 2:01:46.960 --> 2:01:53.000 can only sign up from their seventeen as a kid. 2:01:50.480 --> 2:01:56.360 That least, all that is a kid. Second of all, 2:01:57.640 --> 2:02:01.320 it's like the thing it's it's it's just like grooming children. 2:02:01.320 --> 2:02:05.320 That's that's what it is. Like, it's the same process 2:02:05.400 --> 2:02:07.920 of grooming. That's that's what's going on. Yeah, one of 2:02:07.960 --> 2:02:09.920 one of my best friends growing up, like because it 2:02:10.040 --> 2:02:12.240 was my best friend for like a decade, Like I 2:02:12.240 --> 2:02:13.880 met him in first grade. He was my friend for 2:02:13.880 --> 2:02:16.760 the entirety of school and then he got like because 2:02:16.840 --> 2:02:19.600 his parents sent him away to like uh one of 2:02:19.600 --> 2:02:23.240 one of those like uh like summer like like military 2:02:23.240 --> 2:02:26.920 school camp, and he was just never the same afterwards, 2:02:26.960 --> 2:02:30.800 and he's like a fascist now. And yeah, that's sucks. 2:02:31.520 --> 2:02:34.840 Yeah that does suck. That. There's not a better word 2:02:34.880 --> 2:02:37.920 for that. That that sucks because yeah, they can't sign 2:02:38.000 --> 2:02:40.160 up until they're seventeen, But that's not the point. Isn't 2:02:40.280 --> 2:02:43.880 convince seventeen year olds the points the points to ingrain 2:02:43.960 --> 2:02:46.600 this idea in them when they're like sucking twelve years 2:02:46.600 --> 2:02:49.360 old on the internet, And that is just what grooming is, 2:02:49.480 --> 2:02:51.760 right starting it when you're when they're young, so when 2:02:51.760 --> 2:02:53.440 they're old enough, they will be able to sign up 2:02:53.440 --> 2:02:56.200 for the thing. Like that's that's what the process is, 2:02:56.560 --> 2:02:59.320 and that's what like, you know, military propaganda equipment's been 2:02:59.360 --> 2:03:01.200 doing for a long time, but the specifically the way 2:03:01.240 --> 2:03:04.320 it's being done on the internet around gaming is actual insidious. 2:03:04.800 --> 2:03:07.120 It was literally it is explicitly said by one of 2:03:07.320 --> 2:03:11.080 um A recruiting officer, Dr. E. Case Wardinsky, And I 2:03:11.080 --> 2:03:13.680 apologize if I'm pronouncing that wrong, But then he literally 2:03:13.800 --> 2:03:15.840 said we have to confront this question. I will you 2:03:15.920 --> 2:03:18.160 wait until they're seventeen or will we start talking to 2:03:18.200 --> 2:03:22.120 them at age twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen when they form 2:03:22.200 --> 2:03:23.680 the set of things they were thinking about doing with 2:03:23.720 --> 2:03:26.760 their life, because we're literally saying we want to groom children. 2:03:26.920 --> 2:03:29.360 Is like, yeah, so I think now would be the 2:03:29.400 --> 2:03:32.840 time to kind of get into the countering side of things. 2:03:33.000 --> 2:03:34.840 Is like, yes, this is a this is a big problem, 2:03:34.840 --> 2:03:37.920 as we've laid out the past twenty minutes of what 2:03:37.960 --> 2:03:41.840 can we do about it? Yeah, so what can we 2:03:41.880 --> 2:03:46.080 do about it? There's um a good deal that we 2:03:46.160 --> 2:03:51.480 can do about it? Right, um, we we veterans for peace, 2:03:51.600 --> 2:03:55.800 the truth and recruitment. UH working group came up with 2:03:55.840 --> 2:03:59.760 an idea for the Gamage for Peace initiative, concerned veterans 2:03:59.840 --> 2:04:03.880 in gamers and UH and allies because Veterans for Piece 2:04:03.960 --> 2:04:07.280 isn't just comprised the veterans themselves, it's also allies and accomplices. 2:04:07.920 --> 2:04:11.839 UM came together and started forming the an online community 2:04:11.880 --> 2:04:16.280 of our own UM where we have kind of adopted 2:04:16.480 --> 2:04:19.120 some four channels. Have changed this concept of four channels 2:04:19.120 --> 2:04:24.360 to change. One do education talking about UH, sharing our 2:04:24.400 --> 2:04:31.080 experiences as veterans, talking about and unpacking recruitment tactics and techniques. UH. 2:04:31.360 --> 2:04:35.000 Start talking being extremely vocal and raise awareness around the 2:04:35.000 --> 2:04:39.160 recruitment techniques that we we've already been talking about, right. UH. Second, 2:04:39.520 --> 2:04:43.080 we're doing some mentorship and leadership stuff, starting to develop 2:04:43.120 --> 2:04:47.560 programs in local communities that offer alternatives to the economic draft. Right, 2:04:47.800 --> 2:04:50.880 like just throwing it back to where we started talking 2:04:50.880 --> 2:04:53.160 about coming out of Vietnam. It was already said that 2:04:53.200 --> 2:04:56.000 sergeant hard Times is the best recruiter and it posts 2:04:56.040 --> 2:04:58.680 posts the drafts we went when we went to an 2:04:58.680 --> 2:05:01.600 all volunteer force, you have to have a reason to join, 2:05:01.840 --> 2:05:04.800 and there's a thing called the economic draft. And it's 2:05:04.840 --> 2:05:07.880 the impoverished conditions that many kids and people face that 2:05:08.040 --> 2:05:10.520 forced them to go into the military. Right, you don't 2:05:10.560 --> 2:05:13.080 have healthcare coming out of high school, you're in an 2:05:13.080 --> 2:05:15.880 abusive home, you're not talking to a guidance counselor no 2:05:16.000 --> 2:05:17.600 college is coming to you don't know how to pay 2:05:17.640 --> 2:05:19.760 for college, you don't know where what you're going to 2:05:19.840 --> 2:05:22.120 do because you're eighteen and on your own. And that's 2:05:22.120 --> 2:05:25.120 what we keep telling kids. So you have the economic Draft, 2:05:25.520 --> 2:05:28.440 which encourage gives an opportunity for recruiters to go, hey, 2:05:28.480 --> 2:05:32.440 this this program will solve everything. And what what people 2:05:32.480 --> 2:05:34.520 don't realize is what's being asked is are you willing 2:05:34.560 --> 2:05:36.720 to kill for a camaro? Are you willing to kill 2:05:36.800 --> 2:05:38.200 just to have a roof of your head? Are you 2:05:38.280 --> 2:05:41.320 willing to kill for medicare? Right? So we're starting to 2:05:41.800 --> 2:05:46.120 focus on developing mentorship and leadership programs um include helping 2:05:46.200 --> 2:05:49.440 kids and young adults get into college or find mutual 2:05:49.480 --> 2:05:52.360 aid programs and within their communities, start doing stuff locally 2:05:52.400 --> 2:05:55.879 because this is the problem is pervasive. Right, Not everybody 2:05:56.000 --> 2:05:58.000 needs to escape abuse of home and it is fine 2:05:58.080 --> 2:06:00.760 staying in their community, but doesn't know how to survive 2:06:00.800 --> 2:06:02.840 within the community because they don't have the resources there. 2:06:03.160 --> 2:06:05.160 And we also look at the what's going on in 2:06:05.160 --> 2:06:08.160 the world today and and recognize that things must be 2:06:08.200 --> 2:06:11.080 done at a local level. Um and you can be 2:06:11.600 --> 2:06:13.720 part of leading that change right in teresting some of 2:06:13.720 --> 2:06:18.440 the our world concerns. We ourselves do direct actions. We 2:06:18.520 --> 2:06:21.280 go to a gaming conventions, speak out, try to actually 2:06:21.320 --> 2:06:25.320 do counter recruitment right where the recruiters are. We just 2:06:25.480 --> 2:06:27.480 it's really pervasive. If you if you if you go 2:06:27.480 --> 2:06:29.280 to any kind of con or any kind of can 2:06:29.520 --> 2:06:32.120 any kind of like game fest or whatever, um, you know, 2:06:32.240 --> 2:06:36.240 co comic cons, there will always be multiple military recruitment 2:06:36.280 --> 2:06:41.440 booths there, like like Navy, Marines, Army nationally are like 2:06:41.480 --> 2:06:44.240 all of them that they will all all be there. 2:06:44.280 --> 2:06:47.800 And it's not not my favorite thing to see. No, no, 2:06:48.000 --> 2:06:52.160 And now it's frustrating. Yeah, board games aren't even safe, right. 2:06:52.400 --> 2:06:55.840 The Army E Sports team has a forty K team, 2:06:55.880 --> 2:06:59.320 So if you play Warhammer forty K, they have nationally 2:06:59.440 --> 2:07:03.919 or international ranked forty K team playing in the major circuits. 2:07:04.560 --> 2:07:07.280 You know what's most insulting about that? Sorry Chris, but 2:07:07.400 --> 2:07:09.960 it's most insulting about that and I know this because 2:07:10.160 --> 2:07:12.120 one of the streams that we do I hosted, is 2:07:12.120 --> 2:07:15.320 called ad Slam because we started out as like roasting 2:07:15.320 --> 2:07:17.560 military recruitment ads, but it kind of morphed into just 2:07:17.680 --> 2:07:21.280 like general veteran and military depictions and media. And one 2:07:21.280 --> 2:07:24.280 of them was on the or at least referenced the 2:07:24.400 --> 2:07:28.360 Army E Sports warhammerport K team. And you know how 2:07:28.400 --> 2:07:31.480 people will like take their figurines really seriously, they paint them. 2:07:31.520 --> 2:07:33.840 They look really cool. The Army like spray painted them 2:07:33.880 --> 2:07:35.800 gold and it's called the Day And I'm like, really, 2:07:35.840 --> 2:07:38.160 you have all of these resources, you are using the 2:07:38.200 --> 2:07:41.680 recruiting budget, which is ridiculous and astronomical, and you spray 2:07:41.680 --> 2:07:44.040 painted them gold? Are you kidding me? Come on? And 2:07:44.080 --> 2:07:46.320 it's just an insulting that it was so low effort, 2:07:46.360 --> 2:07:49.120 but they still get the praise. Um a lot of 2:07:49.120 --> 2:07:52.720 people report like having positive viewpoints of the military after 2:07:52.840 --> 2:07:56.680 interacting with members of you know, the Eastward Team or 2:07:56.720 --> 2:08:00.200 the Booth or whatever. So I'm I'm genuinely annoyed that 2:08:00.320 --> 2:08:02.320 is also low effort on that matter, and they're still 2:08:02.320 --> 2:08:06.120 getting a positive response and bothers me, that's a perfect 2:08:06.200 --> 2:08:11.120 highlight because being there on like hate using military terms nowadays, 2:08:11.120 --> 2:08:14.000 but being their boots on ground, you know, uh at 2:08:14.200 --> 2:08:19.920 at these conventions, uh, doing providing truth and recruitment, right, 2:08:20.280 --> 2:08:23.800 talking about alternatives, Uh really just being there in front 2:08:23.840 --> 2:08:28.280 of recruiters and and talking to the people that they're 2:08:28.320 --> 2:08:31.600 targeting and family members, letting them know, like, hey, we 2:08:31.760 --> 2:08:36.040 as veterans, right, don't let this be what shapes your 2:08:36.080 --> 2:08:41.520 child's future or your future. Right. There's other opportunities for you. Um. 2:08:41.640 --> 2:08:44.640 And and you know, whether that's if you're into gaming, 2:08:45.000 --> 2:08:48.640 start designing games, right, Like, there's there's so many opportunities 2:08:48.640 --> 2:08:50.640 within the gaming community that doesn't want to put you 2:08:50.680 --> 2:08:53.280 into the military pipeline also, right, So it's not the 2:08:53.280 --> 2:08:57.080 game's fault. It's not like it's it's a tool that 2:08:57.200 --> 2:09:00.720 the state's using right now, right. Um. And then we're 2:09:00.720 --> 2:09:03.560 trying to form some our Army sports teams also, right, 2:09:03.600 --> 2:09:06.280 so we can compete directly against them, kick their ass 2:09:06.320 --> 2:09:09.200 in some of the tournaments that they host. Um. You know, 2:09:09.400 --> 2:09:11.440 my my dream is to see some gamers for Peace 2:09:11.520 --> 2:09:15.760 jerseys getting awarded like some trophy next to the Army 2:09:15.920 --> 2:09:19.000 sports team and just dunking on them. So across all 2:09:19.000 --> 2:09:21.320 the but if we lose, if we're up there, we 2:09:21.360 --> 2:09:22.960 still get to dunk on them. See we had so 2:09:23.040 --> 2:09:24.720 much more fun. We don't have to go clean up 2:09:24.720 --> 2:09:28.080 barracks room after this. Like the ultimate goal being us 2:09:28.080 --> 2:09:31.600 being able to provide tangible alternatives. So a kid coming 2:09:31.640 --> 2:09:33.840 out of high school thinking like, well, I either go 2:09:33.880 --> 2:09:35.560 into a lot of debt to go to college or 2:09:35.560 --> 2:09:38.560 I joined the military. If we can get um not 2:09:38.680 --> 2:09:40.560 a hold of them, that seems predatory, but if we 2:09:40.600 --> 2:09:44.440 can talk to them or our organization can provide that 2:09:44.480 --> 2:09:46.640 alternative and say, oh, well, you don't really have to 2:09:46.640 --> 2:09:48.520 do that. We have a scholarship program that we can 2:09:48.560 --> 2:09:51.520 offer you, or we can provide a lite, at the 2:09:51.640 --> 2:09:54.080 very least education about what they're really getting into so 2:09:54.120 --> 2:09:56.920 they can make a better informed decision. Because the main 2:09:56.960 --> 2:09:58.760 problem that I have with the way that recruiting works 2:09:58.760 --> 2:10:01.480 is that you are not gettinging a view of what 2:10:01.520 --> 2:10:03.120 life would actually be like. You are not getting a 2:10:03.200 --> 2:10:05.760 view of what you're fighting for. That there's a whole 2:10:05.760 --> 2:10:07.840 lot of like these vague concepts that they tell you 2:10:07.880 --> 2:10:10.360 that you're fighting for and then you're supposed to feel 2:10:10.760 --> 2:10:14.839 great about doing, but none of those are real in practice. 2:10:14.920 --> 2:10:17.320 Liberty or protecting the homeland. None of that is what 2:10:17.360 --> 2:10:21.200 you're doing. You're helping Northrop Grumman create a profit, right 2:10:21.280 --> 2:10:24.560 like there's UH, and so at least, at the very 2:10:24.640 --> 2:10:27.280 least someone who thinks that they have no other options, 2:10:27.360 --> 2:10:30.560 and in this country that might not be too far off. Right. 2:10:30.920 --> 2:10:33.280 We don't have a universal health care system. That was 2:10:33.320 --> 2:10:35.080 part of the reason why I joined the Marine Corps 2:10:35.200 --> 2:10:37.280 that I knew I would get health care, and I 2:10:37.360 --> 2:10:39.080 knew I would get money to go to college and 2:10:39.120 --> 2:10:40.840 not be in this loan debt that I was in. 2:10:41.680 --> 2:10:45.000 So I'm definitely not alone in that. And UM, if 2:10:45.040 --> 2:10:48.000 maybe we can even just provide a more holistic view 2:10:48.640 --> 2:10:52.480 of what decision that you're making, that would be considered 2:10:52.480 --> 2:10:56.080 a win to us. So that was my soapbox. One 2:10:56.080 --> 2:11:00.760 of the important things is trying to push back on 2:11:01.120 --> 2:11:05.080 the motion nefarious things that we're seeing, right, whether that's 2:11:05.240 --> 2:11:09.920 games that are becoming way to train training simulator. UH. 2:11:10.000 --> 2:11:12.200 There's another campaign that Games for Peace worked on and 2:11:12.240 --> 2:11:16.680 Veterans Peace worked on the platform Six Days with Care. 2:11:16.960 --> 2:11:21.920 The Council on American and Islamic Relations UH pushing back 2:11:21.920 --> 2:11:24.480 on again called six Days in Flutia, which was delayed 2:11:24.480 --> 2:11:28.120 to quarter four two of this year. So we got 2:11:28.120 --> 2:11:30.440 it was pushed by a year, whether through our efforts 2:11:30.520 --> 2:11:33.520 or for whatever reason, but it was pushed by a year. Um. 2:11:33.560 --> 2:11:38.200 And this game is dubbed a murder simulator, uh because 2:11:38.280 --> 2:11:42.360 it is. We look at other games like Escape from 2:11:42.360 --> 2:11:47.280 Tarkov As as teaching fundamental skills through tried and true 2:11:47.320 --> 2:11:52.520 teaching methodologies for military skills. Um. You know, we were 2:11:52.560 --> 2:11:56.880 talking about counter recruitment and truth and recruitment to give 2:11:57.160 --> 2:12:01.160 people an opportunity to make informed, have an informed decision 2:12:01.240 --> 2:12:03.960 about their participation in the war machine. But also we're 2:12:03.960 --> 2:12:06.680 trying to push back directly on the war machine and 2:12:06.680 --> 2:12:10.920 and say hey, there's better uses of our money for 2:12:10.920 --> 2:12:13.800 for as as a government to take care of our people. 2:12:13.840 --> 2:12:16.960 There's a lot of fundamental things. There's the contributions to 2:12:17.000 --> 2:12:20.040 the climate crisis. Is the military is the number one 2:12:20.440 --> 2:12:24.280 impact uh impact or of the on the climate. Uh. 2:12:24.520 --> 2:12:29.600 War is never green. You can't green watch the military. Um. 2:12:29.720 --> 2:12:34.720 The you know, we have just so much going on 2:12:34.880 --> 2:12:37.400 around all the ways that people don't realize that military 2:12:37.480 --> 2:12:40.280 is involved. We have the future of German warfare, kill, 2:12:40.360 --> 2:12:45.240 cloud technology, gaming technology, and the military and militarism is 2:12:45.280 --> 2:12:48.000 so tightly wound right now that just pushing back and 2:12:48.040 --> 2:12:51.440 trying to parse those two things apart is one of 2:12:51.480 --> 2:12:54.240 the things that is most effective for counter recruitment and 2:12:54.280 --> 2:12:57.640 also for mobilizing people to be like, hey, we actually 2:12:57.680 --> 2:13:01.400 deserve better, like get out of my gaming space and 2:13:01.800 --> 2:13:05.280 like get me some food, sovereignty, get me, get me like, 2:13:05.560 --> 2:13:09.920 let's let me be part of my community. Get out 2:13:09.920 --> 2:13:13.120 of the gaming space and stop using what is fun 2:13:13.680 --> 2:13:20.879 and has actual educational value, mental health benefits, physical health benefits, 2:13:20.880 --> 2:13:24.800 communal impact, social impact like this, this gaming tool, this 2:13:24.880 --> 2:13:28.880 gaming technology we have can be used for so much good. Uh, 2:13:28.920 --> 2:13:31.160 but we need to disentangle the military's usage from it 2:13:31.240 --> 2:13:35.800 and and stop framing our our time, our time enjoy 2:13:36.120 --> 2:13:39.400 that we enjoy with our friends and family through this 2:13:39.520 --> 2:13:42.960 lens at the military forces to view it through. Because 2:13:43.000 --> 2:13:45.000 there are so many great games out there, like like 2:13:45.040 --> 2:13:47.280 we are in one of like right now, we have 2:13:47.320 --> 2:13:50.040 the most amount of games ever released, most amount of 2:13:50.040 --> 2:13:53.720 good games like always being announced and released all the time. 2:13:54.160 --> 2:13:57.000 There's so many great stuff to play, and yeah, there's 2:13:57.400 --> 2:13:59.600 anything that can be done to push people away from 2:13:59.640 --> 2:14:03.200 stuff that kind of promotes this. You know, Colonial Imperial's 2:14:03.320 --> 2:14:07.040 kind of mindset, UM is great, right, Like, that's why 2:14:07.040 --> 2:14:09.920 I kind of appreciate the cartoony aspects of Fortnite, even 2:14:09.920 --> 2:14:13.280 though I hate playing Fortnite and will never really do, so, 2:14:13.840 --> 2:14:16.480 I still appreciate it as opposed to like the heavily 2:14:16.560 --> 2:14:19.880 militaristic kind of aesthetics that other you know, similar Battle 2:14:19.960 --> 2:14:24.000 Royals show, UM. Because I mean, because with with with 2:14:24.160 --> 2:14:26.880 as many games out there as there is, Yeah, I 2:14:26.920 --> 2:14:30.880 think any kind of attempts to push people away from 2:14:31.080 --> 2:14:34.640 the more problematic aspects of you know, specifically shooting games, 2:14:35.120 --> 2:14:38.920 uh is great. Yeah. And just noting that when you're 2:14:38.920 --> 2:14:42.960 playing these games, especially if they are relatively close to reality, UM, 2:14:43.160 --> 2:14:47.560 understand the impact that you can have by pointing out 2:14:47.920 --> 2:14:52.480 simply that your friend doesn't respawn in real life. Right. 2:14:52.920 --> 2:14:55.760 And also keep in mind if you are playing a 2:14:55.760 --> 2:14:58.240 game that that is close to a recent reality, that 2:14:58.280 --> 2:15:01.320 you could be playing through someone's act trauma. So I'm 2:15:01.360 --> 2:15:03.280 not telling you not to play the games if they are. 2:15:03.680 --> 2:15:05.800 We've gone over a couple of like Squad uh and 2:15:05.800 --> 2:15:08.880 and others that are like very very realistic um in 2:15:09.160 --> 2:15:12.480 their application, Just keep in mind when you're playing it, 2:15:12.560 --> 2:15:16.040 that maybe look at it through that lens, like would 2:15:16.080 --> 2:15:18.000 how would you feel if you were playing through a 2:15:18.040 --> 2:15:21.280 game but it was the exact moment of your trauma. 2:15:21.280 --> 2:15:23.200 And I'm not even saying from the military side, I 2:15:23.240 --> 2:15:26.520 mean from from the people who were being bombed side, 2:15:26.920 --> 2:15:30.640 you know. So just just want to have more people 2:15:30.760 --> 2:15:33.480 be more mindful with what they consume and how. And 2:15:33.520 --> 2:15:35.600 again I'm not telling you not to consume it, just 2:15:35.600 --> 2:15:37.480 telling you to to think a little bit about it 2:15:37.520 --> 2:15:41.520 and what that type of media can do while having 2:15:41.560 --> 2:15:46.839 that baggage onto it. And there is a place for 2:15:47.840 --> 2:15:51.600 that's in the military experience in gaming. Right Like when 2:15:51.600 --> 2:15:53.400 I was in when I was just deployed to Iraq, 2:15:53.480 --> 2:15:55.080 I took an Xbox three six year over there with 2:15:55.120 --> 2:15:57.680 me in akin to bottom my sea bag and we 2:15:57.720 --> 2:16:01.200 had on campfulution. We had a local area network of 2:16:01.360 --> 2:16:03.240 Xboxes in all the cans. When we sat there and 2:16:03.240 --> 2:16:05.440 played Halo and and Gears of War and when that 2:16:05.520 --> 2:16:08.800 dropped walls there, right, Like, that's how we stay in 2:16:08.800 --> 2:16:12.400 touch with each other. It's how we process like auditory 2:16:12.520 --> 2:16:15.960 things and and and our combat experiences. Right That's that's 2:16:16.040 --> 2:16:19.880 valid sublimation and processing of of our traumatic experience as 2:16:19.880 --> 2:16:22.400 a thing, and games have that, and that's not a 2:16:22.440 --> 2:16:27.320 military exclusive thing or veteran exclusive thing. That's for all communities. Um. 2:16:27.360 --> 2:16:28.920 But what we have to do is add context and 2:16:29.000 --> 2:16:33.400 nuance to when we're playing these games and go, oh, um, 2:16:33.440 --> 2:16:36.440 there's another side to this story. That's the local civilian 2:16:36.480 --> 2:16:41.040 that just had a bomb cave in ceiling. Right. Uh, 2:16:41.080 --> 2:16:46.080 there's there's these these instances where we've removed that because 2:16:46.080 --> 2:16:48.160 we're so focused on the competitive nature instead of the 2:16:48.160 --> 2:16:50.720 storytelling in the full scope of what that game is 2:16:51.160 --> 2:16:55.240 allowing us to process. Um. And that's why I don't like, 2:16:55.280 --> 2:16:58.840 I'm not blaming recruiters or blaming like coming up to 2:16:59.680 --> 2:17:02.039 h up in the military and going, you know, you're horrible. 2:17:02.200 --> 2:17:04.720 It's not the right thing. Hey, I was there, right, 2:17:04.800 --> 2:17:08.760 I did six years in the Marine Corps and and um, 2:17:08.800 --> 2:17:12.440 you know, instead of going hey, you're a horrible person 2:17:12.600 --> 2:17:15.160 or things like that, like we're trying to offer them them, 2:17:15.200 --> 2:17:18.560 the recruiters and other military members of the community that go, hey, 2:17:18.600 --> 2:17:20.520 you're allowed to speak out against the things that you 2:17:20.560 --> 2:17:23.160 know were bullshit while you're in there. Because I knew 2:17:23.160 --> 2:17:24.680 it was a bullshit while I was in there, and 2:17:24.680 --> 2:17:26.200 I couldn't speak out. I didn't know I had a 2:17:26.240 --> 2:17:28.959 community to speak out to or with, And we're trying 2:17:28.959 --> 2:17:32.840 to offer community to them. Um. And that's beyond beyond 2:17:32.879 --> 2:17:36.279 just video games, but that's drone operators and infantry guys 2:17:36.400 --> 2:17:38.960 and and people that are just fed up with what 2:17:39.000 --> 2:17:42.480 they see in a system that is supporting a crumbling infrastructure. 2:17:42.760 --> 2:17:45.920 Right Like, Um, you can only deploy so many times 2:17:45.959 --> 2:17:50.000 without developing either becoming completely dead on the inside or 2:17:50.040 --> 2:17:54.240 having developing some semblance of empathy that goes, Hey, deep down, 2:17:54.280 --> 2:17:56.520 I know something's wrong here, and I just don't know 2:17:56.520 --> 2:17:59.760 how to uh like, I don't know what that feeling is. Well, 2:18:00.120 --> 2:18:02.520 that feeling is is just empathy for the human condition 2:18:02.640 --> 2:18:06.160 and not wanting to see people traumatized through war. Right, Um, 2:18:06.200 --> 2:18:09.680 that that idea of us going into like even post 2:18:09.800 --> 2:18:12.760 nine eleven, like immediate post nine eleven events early on, 2:18:12.800 --> 2:18:15.000 they had they went there with the right the right idea. 2:18:15.040 --> 2:18:17.120 I wanted to defend my community. I want to be 2:18:17.959 --> 2:18:21.879 do do service right like I didn't have another option. Yeah, 2:18:21.920 --> 2:18:24.440 I'm an economic drafty, but oh at all, I'm really 2:18:24.440 --> 2:18:27.280 here to help defend my people. Yeah, it was, it was. 2:18:27.440 --> 2:18:30.800 It was a genuine thought, Like it was a genuine idea. Right, 2:18:31.040 --> 2:18:34.840 people you could very much disagree with, like the intentionality 2:18:34.959 --> 2:18:37.840 and the propaganda that like governments were doing to promote 2:18:37.840 --> 2:18:41.440 the war and the unjust reasons for that, but for 2:18:41.480 --> 2:18:43.880 the but for the regular people, right, yeah, it was 2:18:44.680 --> 2:18:47.560 it was it was genuine feelings that caused that to happen. 2:18:47.680 --> 2:18:52.240 And overlooking that, I think MSS what makes the recruitment 2:18:52.280 --> 2:18:54.760 to work. You know, if if if you just look 2:18:54.760 --> 2:18:57.280 at all the people who join the military as being like, oh, 2:18:57.320 --> 2:19:00.200 they're just like bad people who want to kill you know, 2:19:00.280 --> 2:19:03.640 brown people. You're like, that's you can think that, but 2:19:03.720 --> 2:19:07.800 that doesn't actually do anything to understand how recruitment actually works. 2:19:07.800 --> 2:19:09.360 And then if you can't do that, then you don't 2:19:09.400 --> 2:19:12.640 know how to actually counter it, right exactly, if you 2:19:12.680 --> 2:19:15.400 are a veteran and you feel like we do this 2:19:15.480 --> 2:19:18.720 whole thing was bullshit you and that can be uh 2:19:18.760 --> 2:19:22.120 an incredibly alienating experience. I've been there because it feels 2:19:22.160 --> 2:19:25.000 like with the amount of veterans we saw the January 2:19:25.040 --> 2:19:27.480 six events, um, all the veterans that you see that 2:19:27.560 --> 2:19:30.560 get through to the right wing side of the culture 2:19:30.560 --> 2:19:33.360 of war, I just want to say that we see you. 2:19:33.360 --> 2:19:35.400 You're not alone, you are you are not crazy, I 2:19:35.440 --> 2:19:39.000 promise you. We we are trying to build a community 2:19:39.000 --> 2:19:42.200 of people like that who understand it and promote healing 2:19:42.240 --> 2:19:44.800 through that community, political education through that, so that you 2:19:44.840 --> 2:19:48.840 can create resiliency within your community and as well as 2:19:48.920 --> 2:19:51.920 at least put a little bit of pressure on the 2:19:52.280 --> 2:19:57.000 military entertainment complex and the military recruiting apparatus. Yeah, fuck 2:19:57.040 --> 2:20:02.880 the military, fuck war a war. It's truth, all right 2:20:02.959 --> 2:20:06.360 to you two. If anything specifically you want to plug, yes, 2:20:06.560 --> 2:20:10.920 join our discord. You can find if you search the discord, 2:20:10.959 --> 2:20:13.760 you can look up Gamers for Peace and you will 2:20:13.760 --> 2:20:16.800 see us on Twitch. We are Veterans for Peace all 2:20:16.879 --> 2:20:19.760 one word, and we stream several times a week gaming 2:20:19.800 --> 2:20:24.680 content content about um different alternatives to military service, content 2:20:24.760 --> 2:20:29.440 breaking down propaganda and recruiting efforts, as well as other 2:20:29.480 --> 2:20:33.200 political education things. Sometimes it's just a random community game 2:20:33.320 --> 2:20:35.320 night as well. Um, actually no, that's not random. Those 2:20:35.320 --> 2:20:40.360 are on Thursdays. So there, Um, Chris, should I should 2:20:40.400 --> 2:20:45.840 do we add anything? I got something? Um? Uh, the 2:20:46.600 --> 2:20:49.080 if if one of the first things you can do 2:20:49.160 --> 2:20:51.720 besides going to discord and checking us out on twitch. Uh, 2:20:51.800 --> 2:20:55.359 we actually have an online can digital direct action campaign 2:20:55.400 --> 2:20:58.960 going on UH that we're pushing to allow content creators 2:20:59.000 --> 2:21:01.760 on Twitch as a platform to be able to opt 2:21:01.760 --> 2:21:05.879 out of military ads UH on their channels. So that 2:21:06.080 --> 2:21:09.160 is our campaign that we currently have ongoing. There's a 2:21:09.160 --> 2:21:14.959 petition it is uh bit dot lee slash Twitch Military 2:21:15.040 --> 2:21:18.160 ad opt Out is the u r L. They'll take 2:21:18.160 --> 2:21:22.440 you right to the Twitch petition that feedback through Twitch. UH. 2:21:22.440 --> 2:21:24.959 We're looking to hit a thousand at least a SAP 2:21:25.680 --> 2:21:29.080 on that petition UH to get some get a response 2:21:29.080 --> 2:21:32.279 from Twitch, and then go from there allowing content creators 2:21:32.280 --> 2:21:36.320 to take ownership of their of the the ads and 2:21:36.400 --> 2:21:38.920 stuff that are on their channels, at least when it 2:21:38.959 --> 2:21:43.400 comes to military recruitment UH, and then going from there. UH. 2:21:43.520 --> 2:21:48.160 We also UH are doing actions and planning things constantly, 2:21:48.200 --> 2:21:50.680 so be on the lookout joined the discord all that 2:21:50.720 --> 2:21:53.280 good stuff. Oh. If you need help navigating that, I'm 2:21:53.280 --> 2:21:56.400 a mod in the discord at plant ipa she slash 2:21:56.480 --> 2:21:59.800 today and you'll find me. We'll try to put that 2:22:00.240 --> 2:22:03.080 link for the petition in the show notes so people 2:22:03.160 --> 2:22:05.600 can find out with a with a with with an 2:22:05.600 --> 2:22:11.720 easy click. Awesome, perfect, All right, Well, thank you to 2:22:11.720 --> 2:22:14.160 you for joining us. We are it could happen here, 2:22:15.120 --> 2:22:19.400 at happened here pod in the places, in the places, 2:22:19.840 --> 2:22:23.120 the places you know, all those places, they're all there. 2:22:23.879 --> 2:22:29.320 H Well, thank you everyone for listening. And yeah, go 2:22:29.480 --> 2:22:32.360 play I don't know, Mario Kart eight or something. You know, 2:22:32.560 --> 2:22:35.640 something something fun. I don't know. I enjoyed. I enjoyed 2:22:35.680 --> 2:22:39.080 the Mario Kart games as a as as someone of 2:22:39.120 --> 2:22:43.320 my age, very very very integral to my driving education. 2:22:43.520 --> 2:22:49.760 So yeah, go play Mario Kart eight. Buck War not 2:22:49.879 --> 2:23:02.800 another generation. M hm Hi, I'm Elizabeth Dutton and I'm 2:23:02.840 --> 2:23:06.480 Elizabeth Dutton. Wait sorry, do you want to say your name? No, 2:23:06.560 --> 2:23:09.120 I'm good, good, go ahead. We're the hosts of Ridiculous Crime. 2:23:09.400 --> 2:23:12.720 People love true crime, right, the mystery, the intrigue, the 2:23:12.800 --> 2:23:15.600 human frailty totally. But what a lot of us don't 2:23:15.680 --> 2:23:17.720 like is the blood and the guts and the mayhem. 2:23:17.840 --> 2:23:20.560 Wait wait, wait wait, some of us do like the mayhem. Okay, 2:23:20.720 --> 2:23:23.400 but let's be real, there's nothing funny about murder. Okay. 2:23:23.440 --> 2:23:26.600 That's our show gives you stories like the kidnapping of 2:23:26.640 --> 2:23:30.520 Frank Sinatra Jr. And the Max Headrooms signal hijacking. Oh, 2:23:30.600 --> 2:23:33.680 so you mean ridiculous stories like the UK cat Shaver 2:23:33.800 --> 2:23:37.600 and Pablo Escobar's cocaine hippos. Yeah, stories like the dudes 2:23:37.640 --> 2:23:40.879 who stole Buzzy, the animatronic whatever he was from Disney World, 2:23:40.959 --> 2:23:42.720 and the woman whose husband tried to kill her but 2:23:42.800 --> 2:23:44.920 came back from the dead and surprised him at her 2:23:44.920 --> 2:23:47.360 own funeral. Yeah, that does sound good. You can find 2:23:47.360 --> 2:23:50.959 this new podcast, Ridiculous Crime all over the place, the 2:23:51.040 --> 2:23:54.039 I Heart Radio app, the Apple podcast, or wherever you 2:23:54.040 --> 2:23:56.800 get your podcast. I don't know how you live Ridiculous Crime. 2:23:58.440 --> 2:24:01.000 Hello and welcome to our show. I'm Zoe de Chanelle 2:24:01.000 --> 2:24:03.199 and I'm so excited to be joined by my friends 2:24:03.200 --> 2:24:05.959 and cast Meats Hannah Simone and Lamar and Morris to 2:24:06.080 --> 2:24:09.680 recap our hit television series New Girl. Join us every 2:24:09.720 --> 2:24:12.280 Monday on the Welcome to Our Show podcast, where we'll 2:24:12.320 --> 2:24:15.400 share behind the scenes stories of your favorite New Girl episodes, 2:24:15.560 --> 2:24:18.680 revealed the truth behind the legendary game True American, and 2:24:18.959 --> 2:24:22.120 discuss how this show got made with the writers, guest stars, 2:24:22.120 --> 2:24:24.760 and directors who made the show so special. Fans have 2:24:24.840 --> 2:24:27.400 been begging us to do a New Girl recap for years. 2:24:27.440 --> 2:24:30.320 And we finally made a podcast where we answer all 2:24:30.400 --> 2:24:33.960 your burning questions like is there really a bear? In 2:24:34.040 --> 2:24:37.200 every episode of New Girl. Plus each week you'll hear 2:24:37.360 --> 2:24:40.640 hilarious stories like this at the end, when he says 2:24:40.720 --> 2:24:43.040 you got some schmid on your face. I feel like 2:24:43.160 --> 2:24:45.640 I pitched that joke. I believe that. I feel like 2:24:45.680 --> 2:24:47.320 I did. I'm not on a thousand percent I want 2:24:47.320 --> 2:24:49.880 to say that was I tossed that one out. Listen 2:24:49.879 --> 2:24:51.840 to the Welcome to Our Show podcast on the I 2:24:51.959 --> 2:25:00.320 Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, 2:25:02.560 --> 2:25:07.600 oh boy, it could happen. Here is the podcast that 2:25:07.680 --> 2:25:11.680 you're listening to. All right, st Andrew that that's my 2:25:11.760 --> 2:25:14.560 job done today? Why why don't you take over? Good job. 2:25:14.560 --> 2:25:18.440 I'm proud of you. Thank you. Welcome everybody to another 2:25:18.840 --> 2:25:23.600 wonderful episode of it could happen here to d open 2:25:23.640 --> 2:25:29.480 to take a look at another book, well two books, 2:25:29.480 --> 2:25:34.120 this time this time works of fiction, and this time 2:25:34.160 --> 2:25:39.959 by an English, unfortunately writer named Alice Huxley. Right, we'll 2:25:40.000 --> 2:25:43.800 be looking at Island and Free of New Wild, the 2:25:43.959 --> 2:25:51.080 sort of twins of speculative science fiction. I would say 2:25:52.440 --> 2:25:57.520 Alice Huxley was like I said, an English writer and philosopher, 2:25:57.959 --> 2:26:02.240 and he actually wrote a lot of books, um fifty 2:26:02.440 --> 2:26:05.400 in his lifetime to be precise. He was also a 2:26:05.400 --> 2:26:10.840 French teacher who interestingly enough taught George ol But I 2:26:10.879 --> 2:26:15.039 did not know from yeah, but from what m what 2:26:15.240 --> 2:26:20.520 his past students have said. He wasn't a particularly good teacher, okay, 2:26:20.800 --> 2:26:24.840 but he was a good speaker. Um. He was also 2:26:24.920 --> 2:26:30.440 a very very big fan of psychedelics and mysticism and philosophy, 2:26:30.680 --> 2:26:34.920 and particularly like advise I don't know if IM pronounced 2:26:34.920 --> 2:26:39.200 that correctly, but advoate vendata, which is like a Hindu 2:26:39.280 --> 2:26:42.800 spiritual practice. Yeah, I know, he's He's even referenced a 2:26:42.800 --> 2:26:46.360 lot and like occultist and chaos magic books written like 2:26:46.480 --> 2:26:49.960 post the sixties. He's yeah, yeah, yeah, he's He's like 2:26:50.160 --> 2:26:58.120 um that guys like his name again Alan Watts, Yeah guy, yeah, 2:26:59.040 --> 2:27:03.879 also very interesting. Um. Huxley actually had LSD injected into 2:27:03.879 --> 2:27:12.680 his veins a basic Yes, he was like he was dying, 2:27:13.080 --> 2:27:16.640 as you know one does on their deathbed, and that 2:27:16.800 --> 2:27:20.200 is the traditional thing to do traditionally. Yes, while in 2:27:20.240 --> 2:27:23.360 the process of dying, because he had like advanced learning 2:27:23.400 --> 2:27:26.640 your cancer, he had to write to his wife Laura, 2:27:27.040 --> 2:27:34.120 he was just like lsd intermuscular. He's like, okay, Jackson, 2:27:35.840 --> 2:27:40.200 inject him fucking muscle. And she doesn't inject him with 2:27:40.320 --> 2:27:43.400 one dose. She injects him with two doses and then 2:27:43.440 --> 2:27:48.280 he dies like several hours later. Incredibly based what Awa 2:27:49.320 --> 2:27:53.840 staggeringly based, And honestly, if if he was like speaking 2:27:53.840 --> 2:27:55.880 on the deathbed, I would really love to know, like 2:27:56.000 --> 2:27:58.200 what that experience was, like, like are you just like 2:27:59.080 --> 2:28:04.480 dancing through like what's going on? I mean it could 2:28:04.520 --> 2:28:07.240 it could think I can see of being the most 2:28:07.280 --> 2:28:14.080 amazing thing and also extreme plainly terrified. Right as a 2:28:14.120 --> 2:28:18.520 general rule, when like Pete, they've done studies on like 2:28:18.800 --> 2:28:24.160 giving different kinds of psychedelics, usually silocybin mushrooms to um 2:28:25.320 --> 2:28:28.800 people who are in hospice and it it generally reduces 2:28:28.840 --> 2:28:33.720 their fear of death. Yeah they go in peace. Yeah yeah, 2:28:33.720 --> 2:28:36.720 it just makes them like, ah, you know what, everything 2:28:37.000 --> 2:28:40.720 is the same as everything else, and we're the imagination 2:28:40.720 --> 2:28:43.800 of the universe. I'm going to go back into space, 2:28:46.000 --> 2:28:49.720 which is fine. Good for them, Yeah yeah, good for them, 2:28:49.959 --> 2:28:52.160 good for them. If I want my death bed, I 2:28:52.160 --> 2:28:55.760 already wouldn't want to be thinking about death either Yeah, 2:28:55.800 --> 2:28:57.800 I mean that assumes that, you know, we get a 2:28:57.840 --> 2:28:59.560 death bed, you know, and that's the kind of wild 2:28:59.560 --> 2:29:01.440 thing about death. You don't know when it's going to happen. 2:29:01.879 --> 2:29:07.480 But to return into the topic of discussion Brief New 2:29:07.520 --> 2:29:14.640 World and Ireland, right, to summarize the plots of both, 2:29:14.680 --> 2:29:16.520 I guess I'll start with Brief New Wild It is 2:29:16.520 --> 2:29:18.800 the more famous of the two. I don't think a 2:29:18.879 --> 2:29:21.160 lot of people have hood of Island compared to Brief 2:29:21.160 --> 2:29:24.160 New World because Brief New World and High School. But 2:29:24.920 --> 2:29:28.480 I have not read Island exactly, and it's like it's 2:29:28.480 --> 2:29:32.280 released as a lot about society. That that that we 2:29:32.280 --> 2:29:37.040 read about the dystopias, but not the youtubeias. But anyway, 2:29:38.160 --> 2:29:40.000 Brief New World, you know, it's really up there with 2:29:40.080 --> 2:29:47.920 like in terms of um, you know, it's it's notoriety. Um. 2:29:47.920 --> 2:29:52.720 It is like one of the quintessential dystopias. It's set 2:29:52.800 --> 2:29:57.600 like several hundred years into the future, like which you know, 2:29:58.160 --> 2:30:03.360 to place which it's several decades ago. Brave New World 2:30:03.440 --> 2:30:07.600 was set in two thousand and fifty four, two thousand five, 2:30:07.640 --> 2:30:15.680 huty see, so several direct times. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But however, 2:30:15.920 --> 2:30:20.320 in the book it isn't called two thousand five. It's 2:30:20.360 --> 2:30:25.640 called six three to a F a F standing for 2:30:25.879 --> 2:30:30.119 after Ford. Because in this world, and I'm sure we'll 2:30:30.120 --> 2:30:34.280 get into this a bit, Henry Ford, the assembly lying guy, 2:30:34.600 --> 2:30:40.080 the monet guy, he is basically god. He is the 2:30:40.120 --> 2:30:42.760 god of their world. You know, Yeah, that wouldn't be ideal. 2:30:43.920 --> 2:30:46.440 They say things like by Ford's name and that kind 2:30:46.480 --> 2:30:52.360 of thing, you know, and his school sort of assembly 2:30:52.440 --> 2:30:57.760 line structure. Um, it's basically a chopolated to society as 2:30:57.800 --> 2:31:02.800 a whole. Right, there's this world state where emotions and 2:31:02.879 --> 2:31:08.039 individuality of condition out of children and everyone belongs to 2:31:08.120 --> 2:31:13.240 everyone else, and you know, there's children are created in 2:31:13.440 --> 2:31:19.480 like factories and generated to be part of specific classes, 2:31:19.600 --> 2:31:24.039 whether it be alpha, beta, Gamma, delta, or epsilon. So 2:31:24.080 --> 2:31:29.119 it's like it's kind of like what's what's what's happening today? 2:31:29.440 --> 2:31:33.640 You know, in terms of the Greek alphabet um, we 2:31:33.680 --> 2:31:35.200 have the alpha's who are bred to be like the 2:31:35.280 --> 2:31:37.440 leaders and stuff, and you're the absilons who are bred 2:31:37.440 --> 2:31:42.080 to be like the menial libras, and you have the 2:31:42.120 --> 2:31:45.080 folks in between, and like they are literally conditioned, you know, 2:31:45.160 --> 2:31:48.480 So like in the factory in the baby making factory, 2:31:48.560 --> 2:31:51.640 which is in this case literal and not a euphemism 2:31:51.800 --> 2:31:56.760 for the womb um. You know, they like poled back 2:31:56.800 --> 2:32:01.000 on oxygen or they apply certain chemicals sitting hormones in 2:32:01.120 --> 2:32:03.680 order to like condition people. So they don't do like 2:32:04.200 --> 2:32:10.080 genetic um like coding whatever. They just they do a 2:32:10.240 --> 2:32:15.160 chemical concoctions in those sort of test tubes. And yeah, 2:32:15.200 --> 2:32:17.800 I mean the story of the world is really how 2:32:17.840 --> 2:32:20.920 it's affecting, like that's on the top level of people 2:32:20.959 --> 2:32:25.320 within it and sort of contrasted with sort of reservations 2:32:25.400 --> 2:32:29.440 that exist in their world where people are a bit 2:32:29.520 --> 2:32:37.039 less restricted. Um. And it ends pretty tragically, But the 2:32:37.120 --> 2:32:40.720 next book also ends tragically. The extra for being Island, 2:32:40.760 --> 2:32:45.280 which is like the utuopian twin for a Brief New 2:32:45.280 --> 2:32:47.520 World in a lot of ways, in terms of memory, 2:32:48.000 --> 2:32:51.040 mirroring a lot of the same themes that Brief New 2:32:51.040 --> 2:32:56.800 World explores. Right, So in Ireland there's this specific island 2:32:56.840 --> 2:33:01.640 called Parlor, which is um fictional. I mean, there was 2:33:01.680 --> 2:33:06.720 an area in India cold Parlor, but the island of 2:33:06.720 --> 2:33:09.240 Parlor in this world is like it doesn't exist, right, 2:33:09.560 --> 2:33:12.560 and it's basically seen as this oasis of happiness and 2:33:12.680 --> 2:33:18.879 freedom and where it's inhabitants of resisted capitalism and consumerism 2:33:19.040 --> 2:33:24.199 and technology. Right then this journalist, another British guy named 2:33:24.240 --> 2:33:30.200 Will Farnaby Um pulls up on their island and he's 2:33:30.200 --> 2:33:34.600 basically trying to scoop out the island for exploitation because 2:33:34.760 --> 2:33:38.960 he's friends with this industrialist who's trying to like extract 2:33:39.040 --> 2:33:44.800 oil from the region. And while he's going through the 2:33:44.840 --> 2:33:47.720 island and really going through the society going through the book, 2:33:48.520 --> 2:33:50.360 there are a lot of monologues and stuff. I mean, 2:33:50.360 --> 2:33:53.280 this book is kind of heavy on the monologues and 2:33:53.280 --> 2:33:57.160 the discussions. It's kind of like Alice Hucksley's soup box 2:33:57.240 --> 2:34:00.360 for all his ideas, just laying them all out there. Right. 2:34:00.400 --> 2:34:03.959 So Will enters palace a cynic, but by time he 2:34:04.000 --> 2:34:07.640 comes out, he's like he's had like layers on layers 2:34:07.640 --> 2:34:12.560 of epiphanies. And I don't know for those who have 2:34:12.560 --> 2:34:16.920 been reading to one of everything recently. Um. In chapter 2:34:17.000 --> 2:34:21.800 two there the authors David when Grown David Group. But 2:34:21.840 --> 2:34:24.600 this sort of outline some of the discussions that were 2:34:24.600 --> 2:34:28.800 happening that were happening between Europeans and Indigenous Americans at 2:34:28.800 --> 2:34:32.119 the time. Of arrival and how those discussions were shaping 2:34:32.959 --> 2:34:38.920 both um apparently the Europeans view of society. Interestingly, it's 2:34:39.000 --> 2:34:41.640 kind of like reflected here because you know, I have 2:34:41.760 --> 2:34:44.760 this white man who pulls up with all his English ideas, 2:34:44.879 --> 2:34:49.800 and it's basically these indigenous inhabitants and parlor basically deconstructing 2:34:49.800 --> 2:34:53.960 his ideas through dialogue, UM, and through debate and discussion, 2:34:55.280 --> 2:35:00.280 and unfortunately it doesn't end very well. Despite you know, 2:35:00.360 --> 2:35:03.720 being convinced of the purity and brilliance of the poloniese 2:35:03.800 --> 2:35:06.040 we have lived in UM, he already made the deal 2:35:06.080 --> 2:35:11.400 with the industrialist and Paula um Is has basically been 2:35:11.400 --> 2:35:16.800 sold by an by neighboring country and so it's downfall 2:35:17.000 --> 2:35:23.160 is now sadly inevitable. And that's how it ends. Oh 2:35:23.160 --> 2:35:27.080 and also UM will want to be kind of as 2:35:27.120 --> 2:35:29.200 like an LST Well sound really LSD, but it's like 2:35:29.280 --> 2:35:33.160 a psychedelic trip. Yeah, it's like a combination like and 2:35:33.240 --> 2:35:39.160 almost yeah, yeah and true how this Hucksley fashion. Yeah yeah, 2:35:39.200 --> 2:35:42.080 there's like a lot of the tropes and like its 2:35:42.200 --> 2:35:46.360 themes that were President Brave New World exists in island, 2:35:46.720 --> 2:35:49.480 but as like their inversion, so like in terms of 2:35:49.520 --> 2:35:52.880 like it showed like the like Brave New World has 2:35:52.879 --> 2:35:58.480 written before Huxley had psychedelics. It was like his his 2:35:58.680 --> 2:36:01.160 version of drug uses so different in that book. It's 2:36:01.200 --> 2:36:05.840 more like a pacifying drug um, whereas the drug used 2:36:05.840 --> 2:36:09.279 in Ireland it's more like a like an enlightening drugs. 2:36:09.720 --> 2:36:12.320 But there's a whole bunch of themes that like parallel 2:36:12.640 --> 2:36:16.840 but are also inverted on each other. Yeah, exactly exactly, 2:36:16.879 --> 2:36:19.879 And we're gonna get into those themes just now. But 2:36:19.959 --> 2:36:24.680 to summarize, for if New World is basically humans becoming 2:36:24.920 --> 2:36:30.640 less than human because of all these technological and sociological 2:36:31.040 --> 2:36:36.040 um efforts, where as Ireland is like the opposite. We ha, 2:36:36.240 --> 2:36:39.840 you know, humans are able to come into the fullness 2:36:40.000 --> 2:36:45.600 of the humanness um while still using science except in 2:36:45.600 --> 2:36:50.400 a way to enhance their quality of life. I don't 2:36:50.400 --> 2:36:52.560 know if I missed any aspect of either plots that 2:36:53.080 --> 2:36:54.880 and if you want to like touch on a real 2:36:54.959 --> 2:36:59.600 quick no, no, no really, okay, yeah, I mean I 2:36:59.640 --> 2:37:02.720 all said one thing is interested because Brave New World 2:37:02.800 --> 2:37:06.520 also has this sort of like weird like going to 2:37:06.600 --> 2:37:10.640 a reservation plot that's like, yeah, kind of a b plot, 2:37:10.680 --> 2:37:12.400 but you see sort of it's another one of those 2:37:12.400 --> 2:37:16.160 things instead of like I don't know if invert its 2:37:16.200 --> 2:37:22.360 the right word, but the sort of context of it 2:37:22.400 --> 2:37:26.920 is very, very different in Island than it isn't Brave 2:37:26.959 --> 2:37:29.920 New World. Yeah, yeah, because I mean in a sense 2:37:30.040 --> 2:37:35.760 you have this outside of protagonist who is introduced to 2:37:35.800 --> 2:37:43.040 this alternate way of living UM and is transformed by it. 2:37:43.440 --> 2:37:48.240 You know, except in Brave New Wild, you know, he 2:37:48.320 --> 2:37:54.720 ends up killing himself and in Island, well he already 2:37:54.760 --> 2:38:00.480 sold out the island. You know. I will say, UM 2:38:00.600 --> 2:38:02.560 one criticism that I want to get out to the 2:38:02.560 --> 2:38:06.000 way before we get into the concepts and you know 2:38:06.000 --> 2:38:09.320 how they might apply to politics as a whole. Really 2:38:10.400 --> 2:38:15.840 is Huxley, like a lot of authors and thinkers and 2:38:16.600 --> 2:38:24.840 ideologues of his time, has this very unsettling h fixation 2:38:25.720 --> 2:38:30.119 on overpopulation. It's kind of like what we were talking 2:38:30.160 --> 2:38:34.480 about UM with the last book we discussed here UM, 2:38:34.480 --> 2:38:37.640 this sort of weird fixation and over population and you know, 2:38:37.720 --> 2:38:43.440 people dying out and that kind of thing. UM. In 2:38:43.920 --> 2:38:48.440 in Parlia and in in Ireland, there's a sort of 2:38:49.480 --> 2:38:54.320 acceptance of UM of population as something that needs to 2:38:54.360 --> 2:38:58.280 be you know, avoided until I guess it brings us 2:38:58.320 --> 2:39:04.160 to the first the which is the use of contraception 2:39:04.800 --> 2:39:08.680 in both books. Right, Like, on one hand, you have 2:39:09.480 --> 2:39:15.360 in Brief New World where there's like mandatory contraception and 2:39:15.480 --> 2:39:18.920 people are literally not allowed to like naturally give birth, 2:39:18.959 --> 2:39:22.000 you know, they have to have babies through test you. 2:39:22.720 --> 2:39:28.320 Whereas in Parlor, you know, there's reproductive education and reproductive 2:39:28.400 --> 2:39:35.000 choice and expressive sex. And it's really like a complete contrast. 2:39:36.160 --> 2:39:38.400 So I guess I want to do something like I 2:39:38.480 --> 2:39:45.320 like speculating and thinking about how anarchy would operate. UM, 2:39:45.360 --> 2:39:46.760 I think there needs to be a lot more of 2:39:46.800 --> 2:39:52.119 that in terms of um creative works and discussions. I mean, 2:39:52.160 --> 2:39:55.920 like there was at the Cafe by my Tester, and 2:39:56.040 --> 2:40:01.000 there are some like utopian fictions out there, but and 2:40:01.280 --> 2:40:06.720 I like less than utopian, but still interesting explorations of 2:40:07.040 --> 2:40:10.800 anarchist society. It's like it's lucky the quins that is possessed. 2:40:11.480 --> 2:40:15.200 It is interesting to me that even in mainstream sort 2:40:15.240 --> 2:40:18.520 of imagining, whenever there's an attempt to envision a utopia, 2:40:18.800 --> 2:40:22.560 there's nearly always a lot of anarchist principles involved in that. 2:40:22.959 --> 2:40:27.840 It's basically impossible to imagine a utopia without aspects of 2:40:27.879 --> 2:40:31.000 anarchist theory making it into it exactly, and it tends 2:40:31.040 --> 2:40:33.840 to be like some elements of anti work in there, 2:40:34.200 --> 2:40:38.680 and like you know, like to post work, post hierarchy, 2:40:39.240 --> 2:40:43.960 freedom of association. Yeah, yeah, yeah, as I kind of 2:40:43.959 --> 2:40:46.800 want to look at that, look at these works through 2:40:46.840 --> 2:40:50.080 that lens as well. Here mostly Island considering Island is 2:40:50.080 --> 2:40:54.760 a clue so actual than Reeve New World is. Yeah, 2:40:54.840 --> 2:41:02.360 I'd say so just a little bit. Yeah, yeah, Like 2:41:04.320 --> 2:41:09.520 when you look at how sexual liberation is treated in Ireland, 2:41:09.720 --> 2:41:13.720 it is pretty much an echo of what anarchists were 2:41:13.760 --> 2:41:18.040 saying about free love in like nearly twenty than likely 2:41:18.200 --> 2:41:20.480 nineteenth century, you know, because I feel like I'm a 2:41:20.520 --> 2:41:24.760 gold one, like free choice and contraceptive access and that 2:41:24.879 --> 2:41:31.680 sort of thing, reproductive choice, free love. It's really in Paula, 2:41:31.720 --> 2:41:36.199 I would see, UM they have this sort of elements 2:41:36.240 --> 2:41:42.240 as well of like communal child rearing, I mean in UM, 2:41:42.280 --> 2:41:44.320 which is another thing I spoke about that and like 2:41:44.800 --> 2:41:47.600 my video in December on the family, like the fact 2:41:47.640 --> 2:41:51.720 that humans basically evolved in an allow parental arrangement, in 2:41:51.760 --> 2:41:55.879 a corporative reading arrangement. Yeah, because of capitalism has moved 2:41:55.920 --> 2:41:58.440 away from that. Yeah, there's a lot of if you 2:41:58.520 --> 2:42:01.600 if you study how kind of different societies that were 2:42:01.640 --> 2:42:04.120 not capitalists handled child rearing, there's a lot of like 2:42:04.320 --> 2:42:08.000 very interesting I think my favorite is and it was 2:42:08.120 --> 2:42:13.240 some indigenous group in um South America who's like cultural 2:42:13.320 --> 2:42:16.840 belief was that, um, you didn't you didn't have like 2:42:16.959 --> 2:42:20.160 one man have sex with a woman, and that like 2:42:20.320 --> 2:42:24.920 leads conceiving child. It starts the process. And so once 2:42:24.959 --> 2:42:27.320 you've started the process of making a child, the woman 2:42:27.360 --> 2:42:29.640 then is going to pick out all of the guys 2:42:29.720 --> 2:42:31.920 that she thinks have traits that she wants to be 2:42:32.240 --> 2:42:34.600 like part of the child she's making, and has sex 2:42:34.640 --> 2:42:38.120 with them, because you're like gradually building the child by 2:42:38.160 --> 2:42:41.720 having like adding additional sperm to it, which means that 2:42:42.080 --> 2:42:44.320 when they have the kid, all of those guys that 2:42:44.360 --> 2:42:47.360 she had sex pregnant have a responsibility to rear the 2:42:47.440 --> 2:42:50.599 child and teach it things, which I think is objectively 2:42:50.640 --> 2:42:54.080 the best way to treat kids. It's that's such an 2:42:54.080 --> 2:42:58.000 interesting metaphysical concept in terms of like what constitutes like 2:42:58.240 --> 2:43:01.080 even like the the idea of petic makeup, because even 2:43:01.080 --> 2:43:04.520 though it's not like literally true, it's still like if 2:43:04.600 --> 2:43:07.000 you can convince yourself of that in your head, then 2:43:07.040 --> 2:43:10.000 it kind of is physically true, and it will it 2:43:10.040 --> 2:43:12.800 will be true enough for the kid because like because 2:43:12.879 --> 2:43:19.840 most all these different fathers, exactly father's treats are gonna 2:43:19.920 --> 2:43:22.840 like manifest in the child anyway because they were raised 2:43:22.840 --> 2:43:25.000 by them. Therefore, I think we should all agree to 2:43:25.120 --> 2:43:29.280 just act like it works that way. Yeah, but I 2:43:29.320 --> 2:43:31.000 mean like and also like in terms of like the 2:43:31.040 --> 2:43:34.840 group living in Island versus like Brave New World everywhere else, 2:43:34.840 --> 2:43:37.800 it's always like you don't you have group living because 2:43:37.800 --> 2:43:41.200 you've lost like the idea of individuality, right versus groups 2:43:41.240 --> 2:43:43.600 living in Island is more like you know how like 2:43:43.680 --> 2:43:47.160 anarchists have like group homes and that's it's it's very 2:43:47.200 --> 2:43:50.400 similar to group living allows you to be the best 2:43:50.520 --> 2:43:53.440 version of yourself, because the best version of yourself exists 2:43:53.440 --> 2:43:57.920 in the community. Yeah, there's like there's like a barista 2:43:58.120 --> 2:44:00.560 or whatever. There's a kind of like a jokey ration fist. 2:44:00.600 --> 2:44:02.039 I think about a lot where it's like if you 2:44:02.080 --> 2:44:04.600 see a block and like you're looking at it like 2:44:04.600 --> 2:44:06.879 a black block, right, It's like the way you can 2:44:06.920 --> 2:44:08.560 tell that there are a mouse involved is if you 2:44:08.600 --> 2:44:10.920 see a bunch of people actually like legitimately wearing all 2:44:10.959 --> 2:44:13.640 the same thing, it's like like it's it's it's like 2:44:13.680 --> 2:44:17.360 it's it's really like it's it's it's extremely rare that like, 2:44:18.160 --> 2:44:20.440 even even when you're doing this for security reasons, that 2:44:20.480 --> 2:44:22.680 you can get a bunch of anarchists to actually literally 2:44:22.720 --> 2:44:27.039 all wear exactly the same thing, because it's like it's like, yeah, 2:44:27.120 --> 2:44:28.560 you have this sort of like I mean, okay, this 2:44:28.600 --> 2:44:31.840 is this is not like always true, but like it's 2:44:31.879 --> 2:44:34.400 it's I don't know, you you you have this thing 2:44:34.440 --> 2:44:37.080 where even when you're like even when anarchists are like 2:44:37.120 --> 2:44:39.960 trying to sort of like fade into a single mass, 2:44:40.080 --> 2:44:43.600 it's like like like they literally can't do it because 2:44:43.600 --> 2:44:47.400 everyone has this sort of like this individual step. Definitely 2:44:47.480 --> 2:44:50.360 seeing people be bad at block more often than I've 2:44:50.360 --> 2:44:52.480 seen them be good at it. Yeah, it's like I 2:44:52.520 --> 2:44:55.360 don't know, I mean, like the actual hiding part of it. Yeah, yeah, 2:44:55.400 --> 2:45:00.720 but I don't know, like it's it's it's, it's there's, 2:45:00.840 --> 2:45:04.360 there's there there there's a way of sort of egalitarianism 2:45:04.360 --> 2:45:06.760 and sociality where like you treat everyone as if they 2:45:06.760 --> 2:45:09.760 were exactly the same and like and you know, and 2:45:09.800 --> 2:45:11.520 there there's models of this word. It's like, yeah, it's 2:45:11.520 --> 2:45:14.039 like okay, you actually try to like force everyone to 2:45:14.040 --> 2:45:15.640 be exactly the same, where like everyone to be exactly 2:45:15.640 --> 2:45:17.680 the same in the class, and like that sucks and 2:45:17.720 --> 2:45:20.039 you shouldn't do it. And the alternative to that is 2:45:20.120 --> 2:45:22.320 everyone is just sort of like in a group. But 2:45:22.360 --> 2:45:27.720 they're all like I don't I remember entirely. Sure, this 2:45:27.720 --> 2:45:30.280 don't make any sense, but it's I don't know, there 2:45:30.720 --> 2:45:34.640 are yeah. Yeah, it's like like the purpose of the 2:45:34.680 --> 2:45:37.760 group is to like maintain like you know, maybe like 2:45:37.840 --> 2:45:41.000 maintain the differentiation of the individual. Yeah, to foster what 2:45:41.160 --> 2:45:43.600 makes the dividence is really good at being like their 2:45:43.600 --> 2:45:46.120 own person and give them the tools that can you 2:45:46.160 --> 2:45:49.720 can set that up. Yeah. I think like culturally we 2:45:49.800 --> 2:45:54.039 have like problems thinking about that because like the sort 2:45:54.040 --> 2:45:57.039 of American version of individuality has to do with like 2:45:57.760 --> 2:45:59.560 no, no no, no, you're you're an individual because you have 2:45:59.600 --> 2:46:01.480 no connect actions to anyone else. And it's like, well, 2:46:01.760 --> 2:46:04.840 this sucks. It is bad because and I kind of 2:46:04.959 --> 2:46:07.879 goes back to the whole spoon building a baby concept. 2:46:09.240 --> 2:46:14.599 I didn't think I would ever use that freeze individuals 2:46:14.640 --> 2:46:23.760 only individuals because their combination of influences are unique to them. Yeah, well, 2:46:23.959 --> 2:46:25.440 not just that. I mean obviously it's just as a 2:46:25.480 --> 2:46:29.400 component and I'll know a lot, but I think key 2:46:29.440 --> 2:46:32.320 aspect of it is that, you know, because we are 2:46:32.959 --> 2:46:35.280 raising the different environments around by different people, we have 2:46:35.320 --> 2:46:38.160 different experiences. That's what builds us up. You know, Like 2:46:38.240 --> 2:46:40.000 I can I can already name off the top of 2:46:40.000 --> 2:46:42.880 my head, like a bunch of like defining movements from 2:46:42.879 --> 2:46:46.200 my childhood, you know that basically changed my course, you know, 2:46:46.280 --> 2:46:48.840 like the one time I got cyber bullied, not basically 2:46:48.879 --> 2:46:51.760 like shifted my perspective and my approach the internet to 2:46:51.800 --> 2:46:54.880 that kind of thing. You know, it's like it really, 2:46:56.560 --> 2:47:01.360 I really can't imagine how someone could come away with 2:47:01.400 --> 2:47:05.920 the idea that an individual is just an individual on 2:47:05.959 --> 2:47:08.039 their own. Yeah, they just they just pop out and 2:47:08.160 --> 2:47:11.400 are that thing. Yeah, I mean yeah, because like a 2:47:11.480 --> 2:47:15.000 large portion of you was built up of previous you, 2:47:15.320 --> 2:47:18.680 and previously like exists, Like your previous existence is what 2:47:19.120 --> 2:47:22.959 makes a large portion of yourself. And like sure you 2:47:22.959 --> 2:47:25.199 can say you have a little bit of like ego 2:47:25.320 --> 2:47:28.959 from the start, like your actual self self that that 2:47:29.200 --> 2:47:31.360 you know, contributed to the way you interpret events, which 2:47:31.400 --> 2:47:34.920 then will in turn build your personality. But I think 2:47:34.920 --> 2:47:37.680 these things are not opposing. These things work in tandem. 2:47:37.720 --> 2:47:41.240 But yeah, yes, it is like the whole group Liven components. 2:47:41.280 --> 2:47:43.800 And also in that group li components, you notice and 2:47:44.080 --> 2:47:47.440 at one point in the book, um, one of the 2:47:47.520 --> 2:47:52.320 children like basically in passing mentions that you know, they 2:47:52.360 --> 2:47:55.240 don't want to go by a certain post soon because 2:47:55.240 --> 2:47:57.879 they amoud at them or whatever. And so they basically 2:47:57.920 --> 2:48:01.119 have that freedom to remove themselves from that situation and 2:48:01.200 --> 2:48:05.560 go on, um, sleep at another house or another space 2:48:06.160 --> 2:48:09.840 until that sort of situation is resolved. And I think 2:48:09.920 --> 2:48:16.440 that also would really be a crucial element of society, 2:48:16.440 --> 2:48:19.240 particularly for children having that freedom of association and freedom 2:48:19.280 --> 2:48:25.680 of movement, because imagine how many abusive situations could be 2:48:25.920 --> 2:48:29.520 avoided over him. Indeed, if children had the ability to 2:48:29.560 --> 2:48:34.320 come out of it. You know, we strict children of choice, 2:48:35.040 --> 2:48:40.200 and as it allows these sorts of dynamics to persist, Yeah, 2:48:40.280 --> 2:48:43.520 which then these to dynamics that persist in the next 2:48:43.520 --> 2:48:46.440 generation and so on and so on. It's this thing 2:48:46.480 --> 2:48:49.280 that's having a resurgence in the United States right now. 2:48:49.280 --> 2:48:51.520 And it is like at the core of all of 2:48:51.560 --> 2:48:54.640 the book banning in the anti trans legislation, which is 2:48:54.680 --> 2:48:58.480 this idea that like kids shouldn't have a choice because 2:48:58.520 --> 2:49:01.600 that would interfere with parents having absolute control over the 2:49:01.640 --> 2:49:04.040 life of their child, and then includes the control to like, 2:49:04.480 --> 2:49:07.600 if a child says I'm this or I'm that, the 2:49:07.640 --> 2:49:12.520 parent can say absolutely not. Yeah, exactly if you had 2:49:12.560 --> 2:49:15.959 like this U if you sort of like too with 2:49:16.120 --> 2:49:19.400 like someone from from the past or someone who lives 2:49:19.440 --> 2:49:22.600 in like a corpative reading arrangement, that the pear and 2:49:22.840 --> 2:49:26.160 the child is the pearance property entirely, it would look 2:49:26.160 --> 2:49:29.320 at you like real funny because the child is part 2:49:29.320 --> 2:49:32.520 of the community, doesn't belong to anyone, you know, if 2:49:32.560 --> 2:49:34.560 it belongs to anything. It just belongs to the community 2:49:34.879 --> 2:49:43.119 as a who as as we all do. Yeah. But yeah, 2:49:43.200 --> 2:49:45.640 another element I think that I find UM, I find 2:49:45.680 --> 2:49:51.959 really interesting and the way that probably society operates is that. 2:49:53.000 --> 2:49:57.359 And I guess in comparison to Brief New World. Unlike 2:49:58.000 --> 2:50:02.119 in Brief New World where true so use like UM 2:50:02.760 --> 2:50:06.440 likes and like all drugs are used for pacification and 2:50:06.640 --> 2:50:10.840 control and self medication, that kind of thing sort of 2:50:10.920 --> 2:50:15.200 like chill you out and prevent you from basically going 2:50:15.240 --> 2:50:20.520 mad in a mad society. UM in parlor, you know, 2:50:20.640 --> 2:50:24.440 drunk is used for bonding and for enlightenment and for 2:50:25.920 --> 2:50:29.680 social connection and social cohesion. And it is really really 2:50:29.760 --> 2:50:34.320 usting that that he changes what drugs do in his books, 2:50:34.360 --> 2:50:40.240 like after he starts doing them. Yeah, exactly, exactly, Yeah, 2:50:40.520 --> 2:50:43.000 And I actually don't know, you know, I used to 2:50:43.040 --> 2:50:46.280 have because I I had the opposite arc with with drugs, 2:50:46.320 --> 2:50:49.600 where I started doing them when I was very young 2:50:49.760 --> 2:50:52.400 and had the belief that like they were kind of 2:50:52.440 --> 2:50:55.840 inherently this mind opening tool that could be used to 2:50:55.920 --> 2:51:01.039 expand the borders of reality within human beings, and as 2:51:01.040 --> 2:51:03.440 an adult, um in part through some of the research 2:51:03.480 --> 2:51:06.000 I've done on the far right, come to understand like, no, 2:51:06.160 --> 2:51:09.240 you can also use them to reinforce the very limited, 2:51:09.360 --> 2:51:11.920 terrible things you already believe. And there are folks who 2:51:11.920 --> 2:51:14.240 do that quite effectively, like that sort of appeel you 2:51:14.600 --> 2:51:19.480 esotericism kind of Yeah, I don't know if I just 2:51:19.520 --> 2:51:22.200 made up that too. I like I like that term. 2:51:22.400 --> 2:51:25.840 It's it's just thinking of it's an accurate it's an 2:51:25.840 --> 2:51:29.240 accurate term to describe the thing we're talking about. I'm 2:51:29.280 --> 2:51:34.240 taking it Okay, Well, yeah, yeah, I mean that that's 2:51:34.240 --> 2:51:38.440 absolutely correct, because I mean, yeah, like those sort of 2:51:38.520 --> 2:51:42.280 psycho psychedelic substances and stuff, Yeah, they can open your mind, 2:51:42.400 --> 2:51:46.560 but there are also they're ultimately drawing from your mind, 2:51:47.440 --> 2:51:50.599 drawing from your past experiences and beliefs in some capacity. 2:51:50.840 --> 2:51:54.280 The way I always describe it is that like psychedelics 2:51:54.360 --> 2:51:56.880 are an accelerant to the fire that you've already built, 2:51:57.320 --> 2:51:59.240 and they can make it flare up, and it can 2:51:59.280 --> 2:52:02.080 be really cool and awesome, and it can flare up 2:52:02.120 --> 2:52:04.960 and be utterly terrified and be like oh no, no, no, no, no, 2:52:04.959 --> 2:52:08.680 no no, but it's always kind of amplifying the things 2:52:08.720 --> 2:52:13.439 that are you've already built through like the kindling of yourself. Yeah. 2:52:13.680 --> 2:52:18.080 It Psychedelics do not create things um within you, but 2:52:18.200 --> 2:52:21.800 they can lead you to realize things you wouldn't already realize, 2:52:21.879 --> 2:52:25.240 or they can lead you to reinforce things that you're 2:52:25.280 --> 2:52:27.160 already doing. And it kind of depends on what you 2:52:27.200 --> 2:52:29.200 go into it with. It's like you know, Leary said, 2:52:29.240 --> 2:52:31.400 it's I think it was Leary set setting in dose, 2:52:31.560 --> 2:52:34.520 and like your mind set is one of the most 2:52:34.560 --> 2:52:37.160 important things for what's actually going to happen when you 2:52:37.400 --> 2:52:43.840 when you take psychedelics. Yeah, and if you're a Nazi, 2:52:44.440 --> 2:52:47.920 you can get better being a Nazi from taking that 2:52:48.160 --> 2:52:51.080 you're a Nazi. You're gonna see Hitler pull up on, Yes, 2:52:51.160 --> 2:52:54.080 my son, continue the good work. That's That's the thing 2:52:54.080 --> 2:52:55.879 a lot of people don't understand when I've tried to, 2:52:55.920 --> 2:52:57.360 like when I tried to talk to people who are 2:52:57.400 --> 2:53:00.240 like really obviously like pro psychedelics and like, yeah, they're 2:53:00.280 --> 2:53:02.320 so like freeing they can think about new ways, And 2:53:02.320 --> 2:53:04.920 then I explained to them there's like, well this isn't 2:53:04.959 --> 2:53:07.519 this is an easy segue. But if somehow the conversation 2:53:07.520 --> 2:53:09.080 goes to the point to be talking about all the 2:53:09.160 --> 2:53:12.280 Nazis who do psychedelics and and then like do like 2:53:12.360 --> 2:53:17.120 weird esoteric rituals while doing like psycho drugs, they can 2:53:17.200 --> 2:53:21.240 confuse these people because like how could you be a Nazi? Well, 2:53:21.360 --> 2:53:23.920 you're you know, in that mindset, and like, well, it's 2:53:23.920 --> 2:53:25.680 actually for all of you for all these reasons that 2:53:25.720 --> 2:53:30.879 we've discussed. It can actually assist within that like like fantastical, 2:53:31.040 --> 2:53:34.560 genocidal conspiratorial thinking. It can really can really give that 2:53:34.640 --> 2:53:36.800 a lot, a lot of credence in someone's brains, because 2:53:37.200 --> 2:53:39.520 especially if you've spoken to someone who is taking psycho 2:53:39.520 --> 2:53:42.160 that like and I've had a specific kind of experience, 2:53:42.200 --> 2:53:44.640 you can't talk them all to that experience. Yeah, as 2:53:44.640 --> 2:53:47.240 far as they consume that is, that is solidified in 2:53:47.240 --> 2:53:50.039 the mind. You know, this is reality. I just had 2:53:50.040 --> 2:53:55.879 a glimpse that the reality kind of thing, you know. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, 2:53:55.920 --> 2:53:57.440 It's one of those like if you want, if you 2:53:57.480 --> 2:54:01.879 want an illustration of how psychedelics do not work the 2:54:01.879 --> 2:54:05.480 way some people claim, just make a note of the 2:54:05.520 --> 2:54:08.880 fact that at every street fight between fascists and anti 2:54:08.879 --> 2:54:13.200 fascists in Portland, both sides, every single person had fucking 2:54:13.200 --> 2:54:18.600 weed on them, like the fucking the far right like 2:54:18.720 --> 2:54:22.120 smoking pot as much as everybody else. Um, they just 2:54:22.160 --> 2:54:29.240 also do cocaine. Where is where is Antifa does? Yeah? Yeah, 2:54:29.280 --> 2:54:32.879 Antifa does ketamine. The Proud Boys do cocaine, and they 2:54:32.920 --> 2:54:37.160 both have everybody's got joints and both people and people 2:54:37.200 --> 2:54:40.800 on both sides have dropped acid and taken shrimps. Yeah 2:54:40.959 --> 2:54:43.080 I can. I can say this from a point of 2:54:43.160 --> 2:54:46.080 journalistic certainty because during one of the rallies where there 2:54:46.160 --> 2:54:49.240 was a permitted event at the Federal Park, the police 2:54:49.240 --> 2:54:52.360 were there and telling people they could not take weed 2:54:52.440 --> 2:54:55.600 onto the federal park because it was federally illegal, and 2:54:56.280 --> 2:55:00.680 every like both sides. People were like, alright, shit, Michael, 2:55:00.720 --> 2:55:03.000 turning back because they couldn't walk on with the weed 2:55:03.040 --> 2:55:06.240 in their pockets. That's gonna open up a whole kind 2:55:06.240 --> 2:55:08.960 of room to me, because m I don't know if 2:55:08.959 --> 2:55:10.920 you all saw this tweet that I put out recently, 2:55:11.840 --> 2:55:17.720 like there's still this resistance to drugs and to particularly 2:55:17.760 --> 2:55:20.600 to like cannabis. And you would think that, you know, 2:55:20.680 --> 2:55:27.760 after decades of research and decades of understanding and really decades, 2:55:27.959 --> 2:55:32.360 not even decades, centuries of its use in various you know, 2:55:32.400 --> 2:55:36.240 religious and spiritual practices that by now you know, in 2:55:36.280 --> 2:55:39.720 a post colonial country would reach the point where, you know, 2:55:40.480 --> 2:55:47.000 we let it go and we determinalize it. But although 2:55:47.040 --> 2:55:49.840 the we're kind of in the process of it, we 2:55:49.920 --> 2:55:53.560 still have this situation where the police are like constantly 2:55:54.840 --> 2:55:58.520 burning down like fields of cannabis. Like they pull up 2:55:58.560 --> 2:56:02.280 and they're like, we just seized and burned down like 2:56:03.080 --> 2:56:07.520 one million dollars worth of cannabis and arrested this. The 2:56:07.520 --> 2:56:15.720 others like, why are we still at this point where um, 2:56:15.959 --> 2:56:22.720 basic basic like plants and herbs and medicines and whatnot 2:56:22.800 --> 2:56:27.000 are still here saying this stigma. It's not grounded in 2:56:27.000 --> 2:56:32.240 any sort of reality or logic. You know, it's just colonially. 2:56:32.240 --> 2:56:38.000 You're a prejudice. But that was brief aside. Yeah, yeah, 2:56:38.520 --> 2:56:41.640 I the only think I have much left to sea, 2:56:42.400 --> 2:56:47.800 boat island and brief New World. Well, you know, listeners, 2:56:47.959 --> 2:56:51.480 go home, put on some Hitler speeches, drop some absolutely 2:56:51.800 --> 2:56:56.080 absolutely not. That is the worst idea. Do not do that, 2:56:56.480 --> 2:57:01.600 Go to the woods, go do lest literally anything else 2:57:01.760 --> 2:57:06.000 besides that specific thing. It's that specific thing that is different. 2:57:06.040 --> 2:57:10.039 Different people can can disagree like that is like one 2:57:10.080 --> 2:57:11.800 of the worst things to do to your own brain 2:57:11.800 --> 2:57:15.879 and psyche. Absolutely not. Yeah, just do whatever, whether literally 2:57:15.920 --> 2:57:20.120 anything else. Watch Star Trek, put on put on off 2:57:20.160 --> 2:57:22.040 the air. I have. I've watched a lot of Star 2:57:22.120 --> 2:57:24.920 Trek while tripping. There's there's so many better things to 2:57:24.959 --> 2:57:30.199 do that that thing you've said. Mm hm, go watch 2:57:30.240 --> 2:57:34.640 the movie Conspiracy starring Kenneth brand Of a shod of mescal. 2:57:35.280 --> 2:57:39.440 That could be funny. They don't even know what mascalind 2:57:39.560 --> 2:57:45.200 is neither. Instructions. Do not compute if if acid made 2:57:45.280 --> 2:57:50.560 time different. What. Yeah, that's kind of mescaline. I mean, 2:57:50.800 --> 2:57:55.680 mescaline is like the the active thing inside pat. Yeah, 2:57:56.080 --> 2:57:59.560 mescalin is is a psychedelic the most intense time dilation 2:57:59.600 --> 2:58:01.960 I've ever experienced, where like you will feel like weeks 2:58:01.959 --> 2:58:05.760 have passed and it's been like seven hours. Um, it's 2:58:05.800 --> 2:58:09.440 pretty dope. I definitely recommend mescal and everybody go take 2:58:09.440 --> 2:58:15.960 mescal in even where Um, well you if you, if you, 2:58:16.680 --> 2:58:19.080 there is a way to get the cacti, which are 2:58:19.160 --> 2:58:21.560 legal pretty much everywhere because they're just cactuses and a 2:58:21.600 --> 2:58:24.680 lot of people use them decoratively, and then using a 2:58:26.000 --> 2:58:28.280 what do you call the pressure cooker, you can you 2:58:28.320 --> 2:58:30.720 can get the mescal and out of the cacti. I've 2:58:30.760 --> 2:58:32.760 known people who have done it. I have not personally 2:58:32.800 --> 2:58:34.920 done it. Obviously, that would that would that would be 2:58:34.920 --> 2:58:37.640 a crime. Never criminals, we would never we would never 2:58:37.680 --> 2:58:40.959 advocate that. Yeah, But but there are ways too. There 2:58:40.959 --> 2:58:43.920 are ways that like a person with minimal resources can 2:58:43.959 --> 2:58:47.359 get mescal and out of out of the right cactus. 2:58:47.560 --> 2:58:51.520 And people have done it, you know, So there's the 2:58:51.520 --> 2:59:04.080 criminals have done bad people. There's this anyway. Yeah, alright, 2:59:04.120 --> 2:59:07.040 Saint Andrew, that was awesome. I'm gonna go to read 2:59:07.040 --> 2:59:10.800 Island now. Um, it's a good I haven't read this. 2:59:11.240 --> 2:59:13.760 I would write bummed. I guess at the end of this, 2:59:14.000 --> 2:59:18.680 I am kind of bummed that as as imaginative a 2:59:18.720 --> 2:59:22.760 guy as he was, his this was his final book. Well, 2:59:22.760 --> 2:59:24.959 in his utopian story had to end with it being 2:59:25.200 --> 2:59:30.800 crushed essentially by industrial expansion. Yeah, and like co option, 2:59:30.840 --> 2:59:33.160 I mean like it is it is, it is interesting. Yeah, 2:59:33.200 --> 2:59:35.480 this this was his final book. This was like his 2:59:35.640 --> 2:59:40.200 like send off in like in a way that's that's 2:59:40.200 --> 2:59:43.680 an interesting component, right because like in Ireland yet it's 2:59:43.760 --> 2:59:48.240 like the utopian society, but there is a king, yeah, 2:59:48.600 --> 2:59:53.200 and a queen mother, but not they don't have like 2:59:54.480 --> 2:59:57.040 the kind of power that you know we were typically 2:59:57.920 --> 3:00:01.800 um be still upon king's queen mothers, you know, yea 3:00:01.879 --> 3:00:05.040 still they're still able to destroy the society ultimately by 3:00:05.080 --> 3:00:09.400 collaborating with the military dictate to enable and the industrialist 3:00:09.680 --> 3:00:14.640 oil guy. But I mean they are not really that 3:00:14.720 --> 3:00:16.680 involved in the day to be run into their society, 3:00:16.680 --> 3:00:21.320 you know, like Polo would be the same with without them. 3:00:21.800 --> 3:00:25.160 And interestingly, the reason they were taking parts in the 3:00:25.240 --> 3:00:29.080 destruction upon the society is because they were educated in 3:00:29.120 --> 3:00:35.080 Europe by Christians and then went back to Pabo. Yeah, 3:00:35.440 --> 3:00:38.280 it's interesting because he's kind of playing with it. Sounds 3:00:38.320 --> 3:00:41.720 like the same thing Token was, because like Jared Token, 3:00:42.280 --> 3:00:44.200 at the end of his life kind of identified himself 3:00:44.200 --> 3:00:46.879 as like this weird sort of monarchist anarchist where he 3:00:46.920 --> 3:00:50.520 wanted there to be that the ideal society was one 3:00:50.640 --> 3:00:53.360 in which people, you know, there was people could not 3:00:53.440 --> 3:00:57.119 exercise power over each other, but there was a little hierarchy, 3:00:57.160 --> 3:00:59.480 and that you had a king who couldn't actually do anything, 3:00:59.520 --> 3:01:03.840 who's purpose was to act as a figurehead. Um. And 3:01:03.959 --> 3:01:06.440 I I don't entirely get what he was going through here. 3:01:06.480 --> 3:01:08.360 He wrote a lot on the subject himself, and it's 3:01:08.400 --> 3:01:11.039 interesting that Huxley is kind of playing with the same idea, 3:01:11.160 --> 3:01:14.160 but is is obviously being like, well, this is a 3:01:14.200 --> 3:01:18.680 bad idea. You know, it could only work for so long, Um, YadA, YadA. 3:01:18.720 --> 3:01:21.200 I don't know. I find that compelling. Again, I want 3:01:21.240 --> 3:01:23.240 to read this, and that's something I may dig into more. 3:01:23.360 --> 3:01:26.520 Is kind of like how Token conceived of the ideal 3:01:26.600 --> 3:01:31.480 sort of monarchy versus how how Huxley was thinking about it. 3:01:31.480 --> 3:01:36.119 I think that's kind of interesting. Yeah, well that's gonna 3:01:36.120 --> 3:01:39.640 do it for us here and it could happen here. Uh, 3:01:39.800 --> 3:01:46.800 Garrison tour dot com. No to sponsored dot com. No, 3:01:47.040 --> 3:01:52.039 just drop some acid and Google Hitler. Okay again, Like, seriously, 3:01:52.120 --> 3:01:55.240 don't don't don't literally do anything else. Don't do that. 3:01:56.600 --> 3:02:00.800 The woods are lovely, the beach is magnificent. Talk to 3:02:00.840 --> 3:02:04.840 the ocean. It's so much mountain Google mountain unless yeah, 3:02:04.920 --> 3:02:09.480 like we could go in or something. Yeah, yeah, go 3:02:09.560 --> 3:02:12.440 to a to have go to a comic con. Uh 3:02:12.680 --> 3:02:16.960 literally my suggestions. I will talk about that experience at 3:02:16.959 --> 3:02:28.400 a later date. All right, that is that is the show. Hey, 3:02:28.480 --> 3:02:31.600 we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from 3:02:31.600 --> 3:02:33.959 now until the heat death of the universe. It could 3:02:33.959 --> 3:02:36.320 Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For 3:02:36.400 --> 3:02:39.120 more podcasts from cool zone Media, visit our website cool 3:02:39.200 --> 3:02:41.160 zone media dot com, or check us out on the 3:02:41.200 --> 3:02:43.920 I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 3:02:43.920 --> 3:02:46.840 to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen here, 3:02:46.920 --> 3:02:50.320 updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. 3:02:50.560 --> 3:02:53.560 Thanks for listening. Hey everyone. Last year I published my 3:02:53.600 --> 3:02:56.800 first novel, After the Revolution um as an e book 3:02:56.840 --> 3:03:00.320 and as a podcast series. Well, now it's coming as 3:03:00.360 --> 3:03:03.560 a paperback book through a K Press, and if you 3:03:03.640 --> 3:03:06.720 just google a k Press after the Revolution, you will 3:03:06.760 --> 3:03:08.680 be taken to the page where you can preorder it 3:03:08.720 --> 3:03:12.400 and get a signed copy. 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