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Speaker 1: Hey there, I'm jess Mi Lady Confetti here. Hi, I'm

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Speaker 1: Psyche and I am Hey Shady Lady, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: Boss Level podcast, where we feature conversations with gas tube

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Speaker 1: leveled up, bringing an x fie boost to the table.

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Speaker 1: We pick the brains of professionals, creators and bosses and

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Speaker 1: industries across the globe to help our listeners achieve their

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Speaker 1: own boss level. We are not just creating a podcast,

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Speaker 1: but a gamified, an engaged community. Listen to Boss Level

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Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

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Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, it's Bobby Brown. You

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Speaker 1: might know me as the makeup artist beauty expert, but

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Speaker 1: today I'm here with a brand new podcast, The Important Things.

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Speaker 1: On this new podcast, I'll be joined by my co

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Speaker 1: host and dear friend, international best selling author and Julie Kumar.

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Speaker 1: Each week, Bobby and I are looking for ways we

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Speaker 1: can all learn to live more authentic, gratifying lives. You

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Speaker 1: can look forward to learning from our amazing guests, including

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Speaker 1: the incomparable Gloria Steinhum charity founder, Christy Turlington Burns, and

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Speaker 1: many many more. Listen to the Important Things starting on

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Speaker 1: March three, on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast

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Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Mama, what does the

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Speaker 1: chicken say? Uh? What draft draft really? Giraft draw. You're

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Speaker 1: not gonna get it all right. Just make sure you

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Speaker 1: nail the big stuff, like making sure your kids are

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Speaker 1: Get it right visits n h S a dot gov

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Speaker 1: slash the Right Seat brought to you by the National

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Speaker 1: Highway Traffic Safety Administration in the AD Council. Hey, everybody,

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Speaker 1: Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let you know.

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Speaker 1: This is a compilation episode. So every episode of the

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Speaker 1: week that just happened is here in one convenient and

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Speaker 1: with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to

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Speaker 1: a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening

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Speaker 1: to the episodes every day this week, there's gonna be

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Speaker 1: nothing new here for you, but you can make your

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Speaker 1: own decisions. Hey, everybody, Uh, Robert Evans here, along with

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Speaker 1: Garrison and Chris Um, we are pre empting the episode

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Speaker 1: that will be airing after this because um of events

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Speaker 1: that happened in Portland, Oregon this weekend. On Saturday the

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Speaker 1: nineteen there was a weekly Racial Justice March UM. The

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Speaker 1: March again it occurred. It's occurred every week for a

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Speaker 1: couple of years now. UM. It is instensibly led by

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Speaker 1: the mother of a Patrick Kimmins, who is a Portland

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Speaker 1: a young black Portland man who was killed by the

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Speaker 1: police a couple of years ago. UM, this is a

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Speaker 1: regular thing. As a general rule, you'll see a lot

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Speaker 1: of folks in the right talking about this march is

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Speaker 1: like an Antifa gathering. UM. This almost never gets any

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Speaker 1: coverage whatsoever because as a general rule, UM, it's it's

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Speaker 1: just a march where people, you know, protest police by lens.

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Speaker 1: It's not something that that tends to to draw much attention, um,

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Speaker 1: even within Portland's UM. This Saturday, a person who lived

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Speaker 1: in the neighborhood where people were assembling for the march

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Speaker 1: UM left their home confronted a group of women who

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Speaker 1: were acting as corkers. Corking is a job at protests.

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Speaker 1: It's a traffic safety thing. It's people on a mix

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Speaker 1: of usually bikes, motorcycle scooters every now and you see

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Speaker 1: like a one wheel and their job is to kind

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Speaker 1: of route traffic around the march in order to keep

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Speaker 1: people from getting hit by cars. Um, it is a

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Speaker 1: safety thing. UM. These folks were confronted by this person.

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Speaker 1: Reports on the ground that have been covered in local

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Speaker 1: news from people who were there say that he started

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Speaker 1: out yelling at them, calling them terrorists and UM, according

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Speaker 1: to one person who was on the scene, within about

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Speaker 1: ninety seconds began firing. Uh. He hit and killed one woman, UM,

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Speaker 1: and he wounded for others. UM. And he himself was

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Speaker 1: shot by a protester who was nearby, who was, to

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Speaker 1: all everything we know so far, legally open carrying a rifle. UM.

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Speaker 1: He is the shooter. UM is in critical condition in

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Speaker 1: the hospital. UM. One of the people who was doing

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Speaker 1: traffic security that night is dead. UM. I believe at

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Speaker 1: least one is still in the hospital. The others have

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Speaker 1: been released. Uh. That's that's the the actual like, that's

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Speaker 1: those are the facts of the situation as they're known.

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Speaker 1: The protester who returned fire quickly afterwards turned themselves and

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Speaker 1: their rifle into the police. UM. You know, the police

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Speaker 1: to the stuff that they do in these instances, and

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Speaker 1: then released the person who had responded defensively to the shooting.

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Speaker 1: And that's where we are right now. UM. Portland police

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Speaker 1: have been very cag and saying anything about this. They

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Speaker 1: have framed it as a clash between a homeowner and protesters. Um.

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Speaker 1: One thing we can say, based on where this person

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Speaker 1: came out of it does not appear that they were

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Speaker 1: at home owner. Looks like they left a would have

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Speaker 1: been like a rental thing. Not that that particularly matters,

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Speaker 1: but it's interesting the framing with the police are choosing

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Speaker 1: to use here. UM. And yeah, there's there's fairly little

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Speaker 1: information as of right now. The name of the shooter

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Speaker 1: has not been released by the police. UM. Neither has

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Speaker 1: the name of the protester who responded UM to the gunfire.

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Speaker 1: But we do know, you know a number of the

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Speaker 1: people who were hit, We know the person who has deceased.

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Speaker 1: Avoid kind of spreading anything more specific than that until

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Speaker 1: there's there's evidence. There's not yet video of this, although

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Speaker 1: one of the people who was there says they have

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Speaker 1: a go pro that was taken by the police that

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Speaker 1: may have something. I don't know the extent to which

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Speaker 1: we will get that information. Again, the police have been

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Speaker 1: acting to uh kind of make this look like a

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Speaker 1: clash rather than what the evidence that like. Reporters at

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Speaker 1: OPB in the Portland Mercury and even the Times have

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Speaker 1: have found the interviews they've conducted, Um, it seems fair

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Speaker 1: to say that this was a mass shooting, um that

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Speaker 1: was stopped by a protester as opposed to what I

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Speaker 1: would call a clash. Yes, but that's that It's obvious

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Speaker 1: Portland police aren't going to want that narrative to come

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Speaker 1: out very telling Lee. The mayor of Portland, Ted Wheeler,

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Speaker 1: issued a statement where he talked about the shooting as

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Speaker 1: a piece of the city's ongoing gun crime, did not

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Speaker 1: mention the woman who was killed, did not mention the injured,

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Speaker 1: but expressed his sympathy with the police for being so tired. Um,

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Speaker 1: So you know that's Portland's Yeah, I mean it's pretty

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Speaker 1: sick and like you shouldn't like it's not like dismissing

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Speaker 1: it by saying it's Portland's saying like this is like no,

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Speaker 1: there's there's been growing rather right from the city and

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Speaker 1: people the past few years that have basically been encouraging

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Speaker 1: something like this to happen. Um, And now that it has,

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Speaker 1: it is also pretty sick looking at different like media

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Speaker 1: framing and police framing and talking about it's a homeowner

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Speaker 1: and how it was like, yeah, it was like a clash,

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Speaker 1: not like an outright attack on people. Um. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's bad, it's it's pretty gross. But what

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Speaker 1: we can do right now is support the people who

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Speaker 1: were there. Yeah, they go fund me for medical expences

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Speaker 1: and you know, mental health effects in the Yeah, because

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Speaker 1: just a bit, some of the wounded were themselves plugging

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Speaker 1: up the bullet holes of other wounded while they had

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Speaker 1: also been shot. Because it was a lot of the

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Speaker 1: people doubled as medics or had some sort of medical training. Um,

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Speaker 1: there were medics who were like threatened by police when

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Speaker 1: they arrived on scene for not being willing to stop

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Speaker 1: providing um pressure to a gunshot wound. Like a bunch

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Speaker 1: of ugly stuff happened. There's a mix of ugly stuff

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Speaker 1: and like stuff that seems ugly but it's pretty normal.

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Speaker 1: Like the ambulance did not move in immediately, which obviously

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Speaker 1: people on scene were very angry about. That is standard

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Speaker 1: everywhere for like ambulances at active shootings, and it's just

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's not pleasant, but it's also like they're

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Speaker 1: not ever acting from as much information as the people

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Speaker 1: who were there maybe have. I'm not I'm not gonna

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Speaker 1: blame you know e, M T S or whatnot for

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Speaker 1: following s OP in this situation. I will blame the

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Speaker 1: police for their responses to stuff like this obviously, and

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Speaker 1: the fact that, um, you know, it's it's unlikely that

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Speaker 1: a satisfying police investigation will be conducted. That said, it

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Speaker 1: does seem like we already, based on the early reporting

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Speaker 1: that exists from again a number of different news organizations,

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Speaker 1: number of different local journalists, that we have a pretty

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Speaker 1: good idea of the basics of what happened. UM. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: more will come out in addition to you know, nothing

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Speaker 1: but respect to the medics who responded. UM. I think

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Speaker 1: it's worth acknowledging that the protester who shot the shooter

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Speaker 1: UM seems to have from the evidence we have handled

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Speaker 1: themselves as close to perfectly as you can in a

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Speaker 1: defensive shooting. UM. They stopped the threat, UM, they went

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Speaker 1: to the police, they turned in the rifle. They did not.

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Speaker 1: And there's a number of reasons for this, including the

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Speaker 1: act that, like the last time there was a shooting

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Speaker 1: that was involved a left wing demonstrator, that person was

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Speaker 1: hunted down and killed by U. S. Marshals. UM but

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Speaker 1: it also I think helps when it comes to the

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Speaker 1: legal stuff that's going to wash out on this the investigation.

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Speaker 1: It really helps that this person dotted their eyes and

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Speaker 1: crossed their ties to make it very clear that this

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Speaker 1: was a UM A very like legal self defense situation. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of the folks who participate in

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Speaker 1: these things don't particularly care about the law one way

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Speaker 1: or the other. But in terms of how other people

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Speaker 1: see what has happened and what the fallout to this is,

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Speaker 1: and maybe the degree to which people properly put some

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Speaker 1: blame on the city for this, I think it is

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Speaker 1: helpful that the person who responded UM with their rifle

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Speaker 1: to the shooting conducted themselves so carefully. So, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I have I have a lot of respect for everybody

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Speaker 1: on the ground. A lot of hard decisions had to

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Speaker 1: be made UM, and it's seems like in a a

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Speaker 1: the worst case scenario situation, the people who were on

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Speaker 1: the ground handled themselves UM with a tremendous amount of

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Speaker 1: thoughtfulness and encourage. I think that's everything. Yeah, I don't

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Speaker 1: think there's not not much else to say at this

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Speaker 1: moment right now, too safe, be careful, and again the

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Speaker 1: go fund me. Just type type go fund me stand

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Speaker 1: with Portland into Google. It will take you to the

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Speaker 1: go fund me um and you can help folks out there.

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Speaker 1: H Hello, welcome to it could happen here. I'm Garrison,

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Speaker 1: and today we're talking about two of my favorite things,

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Speaker 1: which is unions and coffee. UM. Joining me as a

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Speaker 1: usual is Chris and Sophie. What do you guys think

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Speaker 1: about about coffee and unions and the combination thereof big

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Speaker 1: on unions like that, like like making them, like having

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Speaker 1: them not big on coffee. It's too bitter. I can't

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Speaker 1: do it. Unbelievable. Union's great coffee, great, Chris bad, Chris

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Speaker 1: gets the wall. It's the ultimate canceling. That is canceling

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Speaker 1: more intense. We are coming down all the coffee issue.

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Speaker 1: I don't ever tell prop that, don't ever talk pop

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Speaker 1: you don't like coffee. I worry. UM and anyway to

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Speaker 1: join us to discuss coffee and unions is a union

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Speaker 1: organizer and uh also someone with a podcast, so that's fun.

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Speaker 1: Uh but Kayleie Schuler, Hello, Hello, thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for having me. You know what they say about union

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Speaker 1: iced coffee, that's better. It tastes better. That's yeah, that

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Speaker 1: is that is that is what I have heard much

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Speaker 1: better quality. That is true. Maybe that's the problem that

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Speaker 1: Chris has been having. Yeah, there are no unions here. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's the that's the thing. That's a Chris jumped to

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Speaker 1: jump to conclusions. But you failed, you failed to consider

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Speaker 1: the uh, the coffee question. Um. Anyway, we're gonna be

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Speaker 1: talking about unions and coffee and Starbucks today because there's

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Speaker 1: been a massive wave of Starbucks uh location unionizations around

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Speaker 1: the country, and I like to start by kind of

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Speaker 1: discussing the origin of this like wave of unionization efforts

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Speaker 1: all across the states. Yeah. So, um, you know, I'll

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Speaker 1: just stay right off the bat like, um, legalities, logistics,

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Speaker 1: the nitty gritty is still not my forte and all

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Speaker 1: of this. Um. So, I might not do the best

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Speaker 1: job explaining it, but I'm going to do my best, um,

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Speaker 1: and to get into the origin story of the whole movement.

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Speaker 1: I'm just going to get into my origin story a

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Speaker 1: little bit um with this effort. So. Um, I started

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Speaker 1: working at Starbucks last year, and not long after I

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Speaker 1: was approached by uh my fellow partner, my friend Tyler

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Speaker 1: de Geer, and he's also one of our committee members

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Speaker 1: here and he was like, hey, did you hear about

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Speaker 1: what has happened in Buffalo? And as you guys probably know,

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Speaker 1: Buffalo was the first to unionize UM, and so he

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Speaker 1: was really excited about it. I was like, yeah, sounds cool.

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Speaker 1: Probably not my thing though, UM, and he was like, no,

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Speaker 1: it's it is like, just let's talk about it. I

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Speaker 1: was like, all right, fine, we talked about it. I

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Speaker 1: was like, Oh, this makes so much sense. We should

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Speaker 1: definitely do this. So um, as far as I know,

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Speaker 1: this uh started in Buffalo. They reached out to Workers

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Speaker 1: United because they knew that this was something they needed

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Speaker 1: and wanted UM. And then when they successful unionized, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it just sparked so much inspiration across the country and

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Speaker 1: we hopped on really quick. UM. Other locations in Boston

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Speaker 1: also hoped done not long after, and uh yeah, it

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Speaker 1: kind of spread like wildfire. Yeah, it's been wonderful to

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Speaker 1: watch the kind of wave of of of attempts and

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Speaker 1: in some cases, like in a lot of cases, like

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Speaker 1: successful attempts just kind of take you know, just go

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Speaker 1: all like it's how fast They've been happening in so

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Speaker 1: many different places around around the country. Um, I'd like

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Speaker 1: to talk I like to talk about like why the

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Speaker 1: Starbucks unionization kind of effort is so important, Like why

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Speaker 1: why this is? Like of course, like unions are obviously

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Speaker 1: like generally a net good, but like why specifically is

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Speaker 1: it's is it important to unionize these Starbucks locations? Like

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Speaker 1: what types of like um issues is the unization trying

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Speaker 1: to kind of solve and give you know, workers better

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Speaker 1: conditions at these at these stores and cafes. So this

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Speaker 1: great question, and for so I want to start by

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Speaker 1: saying Starbucks is a great place to work. I say

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Speaker 1: that all the time. I reap the benefits. There are benefits,

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Speaker 1: good ones. They pay minimum wage or whatever, Like the

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Speaker 1: pay is decent, We have benefits. It's really a lot

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Speaker 1: of people who work at our Starbucks day it's one

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Speaker 1: of the better jobs they've had, and we deserve a

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Speaker 1: union for It's I mean really in my brain, it's

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Speaker 1: kind of akin to insurance. Right, you have it in

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Speaker 1: case you need it if an emergency happens, you don't

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Speaker 1: have to pay the whole um e er bill out

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Speaker 1: of pocket. You've got some coverage coming from somewhere, right that,

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Speaker 1: at least in my mind, is what this union is

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Speaker 1: for UM. That being said, we also just want to

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Speaker 1: obviously democratize our workplace. We want to have a spot

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Speaker 1: at the bargaining table because we you know, we have HR,

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Speaker 1: we have people to go to. But unions our partners

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Speaker 1: looking out for partners and that's it. Starbucks looks out

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Speaker 1: for partners and profit. You know, it's a business, it's

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Speaker 1: a huge business. UM. So this would just give us

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Speaker 1: UM a stronger sense of empowerment. And uh again, I

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Speaker 1: really think of it kind of like insurance. It's just

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Speaker 1: us making sure we're taken care of at all times. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And what what type of kind of you know, whenever

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Speaker 1: the discussion of union's kind of starts at workplaces, there's

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Speaker 1: always like an element of like secrecy and you know,

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Speaker 1: being worried about you know, different types of suppression. So

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Speaker 1: what types of kind of things have people been doing

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Speaker 1: when the when the union is like trying to get

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Speaker 1: trying to get trying to get off the ground to organize,

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Speaker 1: like like are people using like signal chats? Like what

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Speaker 1: what is what is like in this in these stores?

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Speaker 1: How is how are we trying to get more people

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Speaker 1: to like be comfortable with this idea and get like

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Speaker 1: get started with the organizing process. That's a really good question.

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Speaker 1: And we're still doing that work all the time. That

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Speaker 1: work doesn't really end, especially because um, it's commonly known

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Speaker 1: now so I don't feel as scared to say it.

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Speaker 1: But there are being there is union busting happening. It's

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Speaker 1: happening all the time. UM. And it's scary and it's intimidating,

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Speaker 1: and it's meant to be and it's effective, you know. So, Um,

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Speaker 1: we have a majority yes vote in my store. I

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Speaker 1: already know that. But it also takes upkeep. It takes maintenance. UM.

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Speaker 1: It takes checking in with people and you know, for

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Speaker 1: my money, checking in and saying, hey, how are you

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Speaker 1: feeling about this? Are you doing okay? Like I know

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Speaker 1: that this is scary. I know that you're hearing things

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Speaker 1: like do you have any questions? Um. It takes us

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Speaker 1: doing our due diligence and researching the things that they're saying. Um.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean it's it's kind a constant thing

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Speaker 1: as far as like technically how it's done. I mean

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Speaker 1: lots of group chats, just like way too many group

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Speaker 1: chats that that has been most of my experience with

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Speaker 1: most most political organizing, A general is just way way

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Speaker 1: too many group chats. Yeah, in terms of like what

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Speaker 1: Starbucks is doing to start their like union busting response,

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Speaker 1: is this website that they have launched. Yeah, I I

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Speaker 1: know you've I know you've tweeted about this, uh about

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Speaker 1: this site, So I would love to love to discuss it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean I just went off. I didn't really think

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Speaker 1: much of it, you know, I just I saw it

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Speaker 1: on there and just was like, this is lies. Um.

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Speaker 1: I mean, well, for one, I'm trying to remember everything

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Speaker 1: I've read and tweeted. But the one that's coming to

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Speaker 1: mind is when they say this may affect your relationship

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Speaker 1: with your store manager and it may make it difficult

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Speaker 1: for to me, that is that may depends entirely on

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Speaker 1: how much UM union busting Starbucks wants to do. If

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Speaker 1: you want to tell our store managers that this will

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Speaker 1: negatively impact our relationship with them, if that's how you

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Speaker 1: want to frame it, then yeah, I probably will. UM.

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Speaker 1: If you if you want to make it more difficult

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Speaker 1: by not negotiating the contract easily with us, um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: then that might happen. It's not that's not a union problem.

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Speaker 1: That's a Starbucks problem that they are framing as a

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Speaker 1: union problem. Um, yeah, I can't. What were the other

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Speaker 1: things that I I would just like to also explain,

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Speaker 1: like what the site is and what it's like trying

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Speaker 1: to do. Oh sure, yeah, I mean it's it's UM's

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Speaker 1: union investing. It's uh, it's giving it's given partners the

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Speaker 1: facts that they need to know, you know, like it's

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Speaker 1: it's we want to make sure that you are informed

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Speaker 1: before you vote. Know, Um, that's what that is. Yeah,

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00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,680
Speaker 1: it's this like sleekily designed page that has a list

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Speaker 1: of facts about about organizing and all the reasons why

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Speaker 1: it's going to negatively represent, negatively affect your relationship with

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Speaker 1: the Starbucks corporation. Oh, this was one of the points said, Um,

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Speaker 1: the union may not negotiate for some things you are

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Speaker 1: hoping for, and some things you value now might go away.

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Speaker 1: That is so ridiculous. That's a threat. Yeah, that's a

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Speaker 1: threat that your well being will be changed, Like we

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Speaker 1: might not negotiate this contract very nicely with you. That

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Speaker 1: the union is us. They love to talk about the

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Speaker 1: third party and oh, your your store manager is gonna

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Speaker 1: have to work with a steward. The steward is going

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Speaker 1: to be someone who already works in the store. Yes,

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Speaker 1: the steward is us, The union is us. Why would

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Speaker 1: we negotiate a contract that doesn't benefit us. That's so silly,

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Speaker 1: It's it's it's it's very typical union busting kind of behavior.

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Speaker 1: And if you know, if they can just if this

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Speaker 1: type of propagandic you know, can just convince a few

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Speaker 1: people and and and scare and scare only only a

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Speaker 1: couple of the people, that will be enough to kind

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Speaker 1: of cause division and shutdown efforts in the store. Right,

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Speaker 1: So that's that's that's all that their goal is is

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Speaker 1: to prevent you know, at least one more store from

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Speaker 1: not doing it. That's like, as long as they do that,

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Speaker 1: then it's then then then it's like successful. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: based on how many people work at an individual, individual store,

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Speaker 1: that's not entirely unlikely, right is it? Will? You know

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Speaker 1: it will? Like you you, union busting efforts do work

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Speaker 1: in a lot of cases, and that's why they still

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Speaker 1: do them. Like that's absolutely absolutely yeah, And that's why

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Speaker 1: it's it's really important for um, you know, if there

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Speaker 1: are any partners listening to this, UM and partners by

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Speaker 1: the way, is what you know we call ourselves at Starbucks. UM.

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Speaker 1: The the social aspect of this within your store, the

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Speaker 1: checking in with your partners and seeing how they're feeling

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Speaker 1: about it, and having UM as many face to face

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Speaker 1: conversations as you can have, and really really sticking by

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Speaker 1: each other is really important because yeah, like I said,

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Speaker 1: these UM tactics are tried and true, they're effective, they're intimidating, UM,

375
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Speaker 1: and so you have to really support each other through

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Speaker 1: that and keep reminding each other like, no, there's a

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Speaker 1: reason we're doing this this, this is actually still a

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Speaker 1: good thing, you know, because on top of our jobs,

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Speaker 1: and then a lot of partners are in school or

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Speaker 1: they have families, like we already have a lot going on,

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Speaker 1: and then we have to go into work and be

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Speaker 1: reminded that our desire for a union is not valuable

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Speaker 1: to Starbucks, and so they're going to make things harder

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Speaker 1: by doing all the things they're doing. UM. You have

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Speaker 1: to really really be there for each other through this process. Yeah,

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00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,400
Speaker 1: I mean, that's you know, solidarity and one of the

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00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,040
Speaker 1: key of the key tenants of this type of you know,

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Speaker 1: the type of organizing. I know, Chris is a pretty

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Speaker 1: big union appreciator. I mean, I I like unions, but

390
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Speaker 1: but Chris, Chris really really really really enjoy So I'm

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Speaker 1: wondering if you, if you have anything, he likes them

392
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Speaker 1: so much, he'll he'll even like unionized coffee. He'll be

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00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 1: like this coffee still it will it will good work, Chris.

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Speaker 1: Some of the some of the there's some sorts in

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Speaker 1: Chicago that are unionizing, and I'm like, hmmm, maybe it

396
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 1: should maybe should check them out. Yeah, you should at

397
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 1: least at least check about and say like hi and

398
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:59,440
Speaker 1: be like, yeah, great, what's a great thing to do. Um,

399
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 1: definitely go to those stores, go up to the counter

400
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,360
Speaker 1: and offer you, um, ordering your coffee, and then ask

401
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:10,920
Speaker 1: them to write like unions strong or we love unions

402
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 1: as your name. Um, because when the baristas are making

403
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 1: the coffee and they still like see that sticker come through,

404
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 1: it's we really love that, Chris. They have great tea

405
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:27,119
Speaker 1: there too, ice cream tea. It's really good, or the

406
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 1: chide like, listen, I'm saying information though about like yeah

407
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 1: we have there's finally a store that's like somewhat in

408
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,120
Speaker 1: near Los Angeles where I am that that is announced

409
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 1: that they're unionizing, which is exciting, Like, Okay, California, way

410
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 1: to join the party late, but you know, it's it's cool,

411
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Speaker 1: go ahead. Yeah. One thing I'm interested in is how

412
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Speaker 1: how big is the shop, Like how many people are

413
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,119
Speaker 1: sort of like, well, I'm not not in the like,

414
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 1: just how many people there like could potentially join the union.

415
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 1: I mean, anyone could. I think we have about twenty.

416
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: I could be so wrong, but I think we have

417
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Speaker 1: around twenty partners in our store right now. Um, and yeah,

418
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Speaker 1: any well, yeah, just about anybody could join that not

419
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 1: anyone who's salaried. Yeah, okay, but I mean that seems

420
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Speaker 1: that seems pretty common across all the different stories. Is

421
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Speaker 1: around that it's around like twenty union eligible people per location.

422
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: Seems roughly accurate based on the stuff I've seen from

423
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,679
Speaker 1: you know, Seattle to Philadelphia to Boston to Buffalo too,

424
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 1: you know, all all places in between. And yeah, so

425
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,360
Speaker 1: part part of part of like the actual more organizational

426
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 1: structure is a linked to work as United. Yes, part

427
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,440
Speaker 1: of the part of the Service Employees International Union UM

428
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: affiliate kind of a family of unions UM who's kind

429
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,360
Speaker 1: of led the lad the campaign or you know, has

430
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 1: been part of the campaign UM to unionize the you know,

431
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 1: thousands of locations through the States and yeah, I think

432
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 1: around like eighty locations, including two of the company's flagship

433
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 1: ones inside Seattle and New York have have joined this

434
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: this effort. And it does seem like every day there's

435
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,880
Speaker 1: like more stores popping up. Who are who are who

436
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 1: are saying yeah, this is a good idea. This is

437
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 1: whether it be to you know, be like, yeah, some

438
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,479
Speaker 1: of our equipment is old, and it's like, you know,

439
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 1: it causes like keep burns because it's not like maintenance properly,

440
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 1: or being like yeah, there's a lot of like sexual

441
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 1: harassment caused by like some like some like patrons that

442
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 1: never gets addressed by management UM and or you know

443
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 1: saying like yeah, I may be deserved to be paid

444
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 1: more than fifteen dollars an hour UM. With rent being

445
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: you know, as high as as high as it is,

446
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 1: maybe we should be paying over twenty bucks an hour.

447
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,159
Speaker 1: I don't know how everybody else is doing, but my

448
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 1: rent situation is interesting. So rent has been ballooning in

449
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 1: recent in recent months, even it's been it's been really

450
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 1: going up, which I mean, I'm sure we'll talk about

451
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 1: it at some point on the show here. But yeah,

452
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 1: like there's a lot of there's a lot of issues

453
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: that as being like, yeah, maybe people should be paid more,

454
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: people should be at the bargaining table. There's a lot

455
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 1: of things to address to make it a safer workplace,

456
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 1: to make it a workplace where you're more respected. Um.

457
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 1: And it's uh, it's really nice to see people saying, yeah,

458
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna put up with the city more and

459
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 1: we can do something about it, because like there are

460
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: mechanisms to to do this, right, that's why it's happening.

461
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 1: So that's that's very uh, very exciting to see is

462
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 1: taking place. It really is, and it you know, you

463
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 1: make a lot of great points and bring up a

464
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: lot of the benefits of having a union, and its

465
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 1: just like it just surprises me how anti union Starbucks

466
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: is is period um, because it's just it's like, I

467
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 1: don't know, you, Yeah, you paint such a beautiful picture,

468
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 1: because it is a beautiful picture to have autonomy and um,

469
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: respect and empowerment in the workplace. You know, they they

470
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 1: train us to work through the lens of humanity, you know,

471
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: by their words, and uh, it's pretty humane to let

472
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 1: people have a say, a real stay in the workplace,

473
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, I think it kind of exposes that

474
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 1: type of you know, pretty pretty corporate language, that formative. Yeah, exactly. It's, um,

475
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 1: I am interested in like the other like kind of

476
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 1: union busting or soft union busting kind of stuff going

477
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: on even like before this website in terms of how

478
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 1: like manage like how like management has been responding, um,

479
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: and how more like like what like what like the

480
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 1: local responses to wind stores start talking about this. Yeah.

481
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: And and another follow up to that is, I noticed

482
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 1: that COVID was my on this on this website. Is

483
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 1: that being brought up within union busting at all? Or

484
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 1: is that brought I just it was like a huge

485
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 1: red flag for me that they used like, well, we

486
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 1: helped you during COVID we were there for you, which

487
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: really did not. That's like that's like, that's like that's

488
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 1: like abusive terminology. That is pretty manipulative to be like

489
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 1: we we helped you during a pandemic. It's it's like, well, yes,

490
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 1: as you should, because yeah, you're the place where I

491
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: was employed. I give something to you, you give something

492
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: to me. And yeah, and as I Twitter ranted in

493
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,479
Speaker 1: the comment, you know, like with peace and love. We

494
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 1: had to beg to get our cafe close, you know,

495
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: like we we like it wasn't like we just uh

496
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 1: cases rose and they came in said, hey guys, we're

497
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: gonna close it. Like we had we were calling and

498
00:29:55,920 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 1: um making a stink and I mean we were talking

499
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 1: about striking, but then remembered we're not unionized. Yes we didn't,

500
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 1: but uh yeah, I mean it was we Yeah, we

501
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: were really fed up, um people sitting in there for

502
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,959
Speaker 1: hours with their faces out, you know, as cases were rising.

503
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: So UM yeah, great point. That's really pretty manipulative because

504
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 1: like you should be helping us through covid. UM. That's

505
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 1: not like a that's not a benefit. That's just that's like, yeah,

506
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 1: it's not killing people. It's like should we should be

507
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: something that's just kind of always there, shouldn't shouldn't be

508
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: an extra you know. Yeah. And I mean as far

509
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 1: as um, you know, sort of local um interference, I

510
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: guess I'll say UM. I do want to say um.

511
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: In my case, our store manager, UM, I really care

512
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 1: about her. UM. I have a great working relationship with her.

513
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 1: I really respect her. She's done a lot of good

514
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: for our store. UM. And she's really just doing the

515
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: best she can having conversations with us. Um. She has

516
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: her opinions and feelings about it, and I just try

517
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: to listen to them, and she listens to mine. Um.

518
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: But there definitely Yeah, I mean as soon as we

519
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,479
Speaker 1: filed for an election, we started actually as soon as

520
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: we started organizing, and they sort of caught wind. Um.

521
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: We started having barista meetings, which are as vague as

522
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: they sound, um, And people who had worked there longer

523
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: than me said, we've never had these before. Um, maybe once,

524
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: you know, in a few years. Um. So we started

525
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: having all these meetings and not even talking about the

526
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 1: union at first, but all of a sudden they wanted

527
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 1: to hear from us and fix things in the store

528
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 1: and and all this stuff and be super helpful and present.

529
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: And then there definitely just was a heightened corporate presence

530
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 1: in the store. Um, people we've never seen before coming in, like, hey,

531
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 1: how are you doing? Want to talk? It's like, no,

532
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 1: you're a stranger. I don't lot to talk to you. Um.

533
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 1: So that was weird. UM. But yeah, yeah, there's there's

534
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: definitely definitely just a shift in presence. Um. Again, any

535
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 1: of these meetings and Um, yeah, it's been interesting. And

536
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: what what do you kind of how do you see

537
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: like the situation resolving? Like do you do you like

538
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 1: how how like do you have has also like yeah,

539
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: what's like the state of of of your stores specifically? Yeah,

540
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: so we are on our way to an election. Um,

541
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 1: we've requested an election. Uh so we're really just like

542
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 1: in a waiting period for that. We don't know exactly

543
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 1: when it's gonna be. We've heard soon, um, but who

544
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 1: knows when that is? Um? We yeah, we have some

545
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: we we had to do a zoom hearing for some

546
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 1: of the legalities for things here in Massachusetts. That was interesting.

547
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 1: But yeah, so we're we're just waiting for the election

548
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,719
Speaker 1: at this point. And the election is what will uh

549
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 1: you know, that's when we're going to cast our yes

550
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 1: or no vote. Um, and we will find out whether

551
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 1: or not we're gonna unionize. And I think we will unionize.

552
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: It's looking that way. I'm confident, um, and I really

553
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: look forward to that. What do you think, um, Like,

554
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: what do you see is happening after the vote is done? Like,

555
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 1: like assuming it is a vote yes, Like, how do

556
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 1: you think this will impact um? Working at the store,

557
00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 1: going forward, it's gonna be interesting and it's going to

558
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 1: be an adjustment, right because from the time that we

559
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: vote and we vote yes, Let's say we vote yes

560
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 1: and we're going to unionize, there is it could take

561
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 1: a long time. It could take a year, we don't know.

562
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,320
Speaker 1: It could take more and less UM to get from

563
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 1: that vote to you know, what we refer to as

564
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:26,800
Speaker 1: the bargaining table UM to negotiating a contract with Starbucks. UM.

565
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: And in that time there are things UM and again,

566
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: if partners are listening, you can do your research on

567
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,720
Speaker 1: this on the n l r B website. UM there,

568
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,720
Speaker 1: you know, there are things that will be UM different

569
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 1: in that waiting period. Right, So, if if Starbucks decides

570
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:51,359
Speaker 1: to release UM a nationwide UM spring raise, because why

571
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 1: not we love giving you raises, UM, we would be

572
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 1: exempt from that because we're in negotiations, Because we're in

573
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: this sort of in between spot. UM there there are

574
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 1: little weird things that we might have to just be

575
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 1: aware of no going in UM in that sort of interim.

576
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,479
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, and then eventually, you know, those raises and

577
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:16,839
Speaker 1: any other things that we've sort of been waiting on

578
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,359
Speaker 1: get brought to the bargaining table. Yeah, I think this

579
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 1: is an important thing for people to understand when when

580
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 1: you're doing union organizing, right is you know, you have

581
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 1: this giant push and you have like you have to

582
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 1: have the push to get to get either recognition or

583
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: to get this the National Labor Relations Board vote. But

584
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: most unions that go under go under in like before

585
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 1: the first contract, and you have to like that's that's

586
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,239
Speaker 1: something that you know when when you when you talk

587
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 1: to people who who are the professionally you need organizers,

588
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 1: they talked, they talked about this constantly. You have to

589
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: hold it together during during that period between your first

590
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: like bet between when you when you're when when you

591
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 1: get recognized it when your vote ends that first contract.

592
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,919
Speaker 1: And it's hard in a lot of ways, Yeah, because

593
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 1: they think you're talking about like management will do you know,

594
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,320
Speaker 1: they'll doyn't in tensify the union busting because they're hoping

595
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: the union will still fall apart. But if you hold

596
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 1: it together and if you get that first contract your union,

597
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 1: like you know, you you now have a union and

598
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,879
Speaker 1: you've basically stabilized, and at that point, like you now

599
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 1: have a seat at the table and you have to

600
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 1: take your seat the table and fight. Yeah, but it's

601
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 1: a big responsibility when when you say hold it together

602
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: during that time, do you do you mean, like, um,

603
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 1: just through those changes and that interim and that sort

604
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 1: of weird awkward phase, like you have to like just

605
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 1: hold it together like mentally and just kind of power

606
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 1: through it. Yeah. Well, also I mean you have to,

607
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,320
Speaker 1: like you have to just keep making sure everyone's involved,

608
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:52,319
Speaker 1: which is something that's difficult because, Yeah, especially after sort

609
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 1: of the initially, because people have also have like a

610
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 1: job to do it this entire time, right, there's still

611
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 1: they're still bake in coffee, they're still making the podcast,

612
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:07,399
Speaker 1: they're still doing whatever soever. Have you ever done? This

613
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 1: is sort of beside the point, but it's fun. Have

614
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 1: you guys ever done like the sixteen personalities personality assessment?

615
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 1: At some point? I've never done it. It's really fun.

616
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 1: I just did it for school, and it's the thing

617
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 1: that tells you, like, I'm an i n f J

618
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 1: TV and my thing is the advocate Sophie. What's yours?

619
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 1: You look like you had one ready to go. I

620
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 1: don't remember what it was, but I remember having to

621
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:38,280
Speaker 1: do it like fifteen times in school. Yeah. I also

622
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 1: I also forget what I the one that I did

623
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 1: for when I was in school as well, But I

624
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 1: I brought it up because I'm thinking I want to

625
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,839
Speaker 1: send it to my fellow organizers and be like, do

626
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 1: this and we can sort of highlight what each other's

627
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 1: strengths are, um and start playing into those because like

628
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,360
Speaker 1: you were saying, Chris, like it really is a team effort,

629
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: and I think it only really works if you are

630
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 1: utilizing people and respecting people's strengths, you know, because not

631
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 1: everyone has the same strengths. Like, yeah, you might be

632
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: a kick as graphic designer, but like not everyone can

633
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:19,760
Speaker 1: do that. You know, maybe they're better at hosting get togethers,

634
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: or they're better at writing emails or whatever. You know.

635
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, playing to strengths is so important in

636
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 1: the long run, because, yeah, it can take a year

637
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: to get to the negotiating table, which which like is horrible,

638
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 1: Like that shouldn't be like it should it shouldn't be

639
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 1: that long. Um. And you know, tactics such as like specifically,

640
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 1: you know, raising wages around a unionization effort so that

641
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 1: people in the union don't get it. That is like

642
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 1: another form of union investing, Like that is like like,

643
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: don't think they haven't thought that through, Like that is

644
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 1: that is part of that whole process, being like oh yeah,

645
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 1: you could have a union or you can get higher

646
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 1: wages out Like that's like, that's that is part of

647
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 1: what's going on. It's because they want people to not

648
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 1: sign on to have long term benefits, so they're going

649
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 1: to offer these short term benefits. So like it really

650
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 1: is like because of how elongated the unionization process can be,

651
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 1: it gives a lot of time for people to get

652
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 1: burnt out. Um and and combating that, like combating being

653
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 1: burnt out is one of the most important parts. And yeah,

654
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:28,840
Speaker 1: it's it's really it's really challenging sometimes. Oh my gosh, absolutely,

655
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 1: I mean I love that conversation. I'm like a mental

656
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 1: health dweeb. Um, it's it's my it's what my my

657
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 1: podcast is called Your Messy Friend, and that's basically all

658
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 1: I talk about is mental health. And yeah, the burnout.

659
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm recovering from burnout right now. You know, Um,

660
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,839
Speaker 1: it's very real. You have to make sure that you know,

661
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,280
Speaker 1: while you're taking care of everybody else and making these efforts,

662
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,240
Speaker 1: like you have to make sure that you are checking

663
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 1: with yourself every and making sure your needs are being met,

664
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:07,399
Speaker 1: because giving from an empty tank does not last long.

665
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 1: As I'm sure you guys know. Yeah, if you uh, if,

666
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,280
Speaker 1: if you're, if you're, if the water in your espresso

667
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 1: machine is out, then nothing can flow through to make

668
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: this for you exactly. See. It was what an amazingly

669
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:32,839
Speaker 1: crafted metaphor. I just not tortured at all anyway. So

670
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: what is the like turnover rate at the store? Like, like,

671
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:39,280
Speaker 1: how how quickly are people coming in and out of jobs?

672
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 1: And how has that been affecting organizing? The cool question. Um,

673
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 1: we haven't had a ton of people leave since I

674
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 1: got there, I mean, and I definitely I can pretty

675
00:40:55,320 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 1: confidently say none of those had to do with unionizing. Um,

676
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,399
Speaker 1: it was all for just like different reasons. Um, we've

677
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 1: had quite a few more people come in recently, and

678
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,800
Speaker 1: I would say that, Um, I mean, it's it's weird

679
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: because our current store manager, who was great, she was

680
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: hired around the same time that we really started amping

681
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 1: up union stuff. And you know, it's almost unfortunate because

682
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 1: I think she thought it was it was about her,

683
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 1: and it just so wasn't you know. Um. But yeah,

684
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 1: so it's who knows if it was just because she

685
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 1: was there now or because of the union stuff or both.

686
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 1: But uh, they did start hiring quite a few more people,

687
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 1: um around the time that we started organizing. And yeah,

688
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 1: I mean it's you have to walk this fine line

689
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 1: when you have new people coming in. Of course, you

690
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 1: want to get to them and give them your info

691
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 1: um or at least give them resources to look into

692
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 1: before corporate gets to them. Um. But then you also

693
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:06,280
Speaker 1: they're they're learning a new job. It's really fast paced

694
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 1: and overwhelming, Like you have to be careful not to

695
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 1: totally overwhelm them either. I mean that that's really something

696
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 1: I've just tried to keep in mind throughout the whole process.

697
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 1: Is like when my friend Tyler approached me, I was like,

698
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 1: I don't know what this is. I don't I don't

699
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 1: know if this is necessary for me. And now I'm

700
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 1: on the committee, you know, so you know what I mean. Like,

701
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 1: it's that thing where I'm like, Okay, if I could

702
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:46,720
Speaker 1: be convinced, maybe anyone can, all right, is there um

703
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 1: any direct action that people who are listening, or any

704
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: called action you have for us that we can provide

705
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 1: to our listeners or links or anything that you think

706
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 1: would be useful for our people to know. That's a

707
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 1: coo idea. Yeah, thanks. UM, Like we mentioned before, if

708
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: you want to just like stop by your local unionizing

709
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 1: Starbucks and get a coffee with the name you know,

710
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:14,800
Speaker 1: unionized or union strong. That like that in person support,

711
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:20,439
Speaker 1: especially when your first organizing, is really really helpful. Even

712
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 1: just stopping by to like drop off a card or

713
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 1: say hey, good luck with unionizing. UM, that really means

714
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 1: a lot. UM. You can follow SB Workers United on

715
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 1: Instagram and Twitter and just engage with us, UM reach

716
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:42,239
Speaker 1: out if you need info about how to organize. The

717
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 1: people on Instagram or so, I mean on all the

718
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 1: platforms are just like so on top of responding UM,

719
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 1: and uh, website, I think we have a website, I

720
00:43:56,000 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 1: would so I would assume at this point. Yeah, I

721
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: mean we have a pretty pop in Instagram and Twitter.

722
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 1: But UM, yeah I don't. I don't think I'm forgetting anything.

723
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,760
Speaker 1: I think that's that's about it. UM, and just making

724
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 1: noise on online is also really helpful. You know. I

725
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 1: love when people comment on Starbucks posts and they're like, yeah,

726
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 1: how about unions though. Yeah, the website is s B

727
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 1: Workers United dot org affiliated with the Workers United and

728
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:35,360
Speaker 1: the Starbucks I think effort which has ways to donate

729
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,279
Speaker 1: or by by merch in support of the union and

730
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, which funds I'll go to the

731
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 1: go to the campaign and you know, just in case

732
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 1: it wasn't clear, like and this is something you'll hear

733
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,240
Speaker 1: from Starbucks. Is all of this about the third party

734
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 1: and Workers United is going to do this and that,

735
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:57,719
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. We essentially, you know, we work with that.

736
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,439
Speaker 1: They promote our cause, you know what I mean, They're

737
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,839
Speaker 1: here to support our mission and our goals. I mean,

738
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,839
Speaker 1: you'd be amazed by how much partners do for this,

739
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 1: you know, so much. But we we do the nitty

740
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 1: gritty every day, communicating with each other. We're communicating nationally

741
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 1: now we have a platform for that. Um and yeah,

742
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 1: it's really cool. And so like they are, they're kind

743
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 1: of like, I don't know, the supporting beams of everything

744
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 1: we're doing. You know, it's us. Yeah, but like the

745
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 1: actual makeup of it definitely is with Starbucks employees, you know,

746
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 1: and all the people I've been in like Twitter conversations

747
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,399
Speaker 1: with our d m s who are involved. It's like, yeah,

748
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 1: like everyone who's like actively involved in doing it all,

749
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 1: has worked at a Starbucks before, um and still and

750
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,439
Speaker 1: still are like it is. It is definitely being led

751
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:51,799
Speaker 1: by the workers. UM and yeah, that's really great and

752
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:54,279
Speaker 1: really crucial. UM do you have any do you have

753
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 1: any other plugables for yourself or for yeah anything else

754
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 1: in odd plug your pod? Yeah? Thanks guys, UM, this

755
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:07,239
Speaker 1: was really fun. Thank you for having me on. I

756
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:12,280
Speaker 1: love podcasting. UM so yeah, I mentioned sp Workers United

757
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 1: on Instagram and Twitter. Make sure you give them a follow.

758
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 1: Follow baristas you find along the way. Who are you

759
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 1: know speaking up about this? Show them your support. UM.

760
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 1: My podcast is called your Messy Friend. You can find me.

761
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 1: I think wherever you get your podcasts definitely Spotify That's

762
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 1: what I use. UM and yeah that's about it. Well,

763
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 1: thank you so much Kayleie for joining us today. You

764
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 1: talked about Starbucks and unions. UM can follow us online

765
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 1: on Twitter, Instagram, at Happened Here pod and cool Zone

766
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 1: Media And I think that does it does it for us.

767
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:53,879
Speaker 1: Can't wait for you all to win, ye, can't can't

768
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 1: can't wait for you guys to win. As soon as

769
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 1: as soon as Portland locations start going, I'll definitely go

770
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 1: in and support, but until then I will make coffee

771
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:07,840
Speaker 1: alone in my my, my, my lonely, my my lonely

772
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:11,840
Speaker 1: espresso machine. Um. But yeah, thank you, thank you so

773
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 1: much for flour coming on to talk. Thank you, thank

774
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 1: you so much. Hey there, I'm jess Mi Lady Confetti here. Hi,

775
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,800
Speaker 1: I'm Psyche and I am Hey Shady Lady, and welcome

776
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 1: to Boss Level podcast, where we feature conversations with gas

777
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:36,720
Speaker 1: tube leveled up bringing an x FE roost to the table.

778
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 1: That was always my response, bec this is like I

779
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: am like a unicorn here right, like because there's not

780
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:46,240
Speaker 1: allowed of like out of the closet female gamers, female gamers,

781
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 1: I know a lot of them. Like it was like

782
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 1: a battlefield, like this is our cool boys club and

783
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: here no sorry, Henny, this is a very dark corner

784
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 1: and I'm a lot of light and right. We picked

785
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:06,720
Speaker 1: the brains of professionals, creators and bosses and industries across

786
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: the globe to help our listeners achieve their own boss level.

787
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 1: We are not just creating a podcast, but a gamified

788
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 1: an engaged community. Listen to Boss Level on the I

789
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:20,319
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

790
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 1: If I could be you and you could be me

791
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 1: for just one hour, If you could find a way

792
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,840
Speaker 1: to get inside each other's mind, walk a mile in

793
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 1: my shoes, wacome mile in my shoes. Shoes. We've all

794
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 1: felt left out, and for some that feeling lasts more

795
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 1: than a moment. We can change that. Learn how it

796
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 1: belonging begins with us. Dot org brought to you by

797
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 1: the App Council. Welcome out in the machines. Look for

798
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 1: your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest.

799
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 1: It's a storybook world for you. Look and see a tree.

800
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:05,240
Speaker 1: They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms

801
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:09,080
Speaker 1: outstretched to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles. They

802
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 1: see a windy path that could lead to adventure, and

803
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 1: they see you. They're fearless. Guide. Is this fascinating world?

804
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 1: Find a forest near you and start exploring and discover

805
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 1: the forest. Dot org brought to you by the United

806
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 1: States Forest Service and the AD Council. Welcome to it

807
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 1: could happen here a podcast about things falling apart and

808
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 1: even occasionally about trying to put them back together. Today,

809
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 1: as is too often the case, we're going to be

810
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 1: focused more on the falling apart thing, because today we

811
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 1: are talking about the situation in Ukraine. Um it is

812
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 1: as I type, or not type because I'm not writing,

813
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 1: but you know, you get how I'm used to thinking.

814
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 1: As I say this. Russian troops have just moved in

815
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 1: to two regions in eastern Ukraine that have been occupied

816
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 1: by what are generally called Russian backed separatists since two

817
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 1: thousand and fourteen. Vladimir Putin gave a speech that I

818
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:14,799
Speaker 1: will be we will be talking about a bit with

819
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 1: our guest um and announced his intention to recognize those

820
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 1: breakaway sections of the country as independent republics. UH. And

821
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:27,279
Speaker 1: the area that he has chosen to recognize includes about

822
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:31,239
Speaker 1: seventy territory that is currently occupied and held by the

823
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 1: Ukrainian government. So it's a big mess. UH. This is

824
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 1: some have said like a soft version of the invasion

825
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 1: that people were expecting. I think it's probably more accurate

826
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 1: to say it's a slow start, um, compared to what

827
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 1: is potentially possible and very likely coming in the future.

828
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 1: To talk more about this and about being an anarchist

829
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 1: kind of trapped in between you know, NATO and Russia

830
00:50:55,760 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 1: and everything that's flinging around right now is Ukrainian journalist

831
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 1: Romeo Kratski. Romeo, welcome to the show. Thanks a lot,

832
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. Been a big fan of yours.

833
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 1: So it's an honor to be here. And you are

834
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,879
Speaker 1: in your in Kiev right now, right? Yeah? Correct? And

835
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 1: and how is everybody keeps asking this all around? But

836
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 1: how is the mood? Um? As you know, to the

837
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:22,919
Speaker 1: extent that there's a way of saying that, like I've

838
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 1: i've you know, have things kind of taking a turn

839
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: since Putin actually made his first big play. I mean,

840
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:36,319
Speaker 1: as much as journalists like to say, there is no

841
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:42,320
Speaker 1: magic mudometer to cha to instantly bowl every resident in

842
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 1: the city to find out walk around and talk to everybody,

843
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:49,239
Speaker 1: just like all the four million or whatever citizens in

844
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 1: the city. Let me just let me just ask him. Um.

845
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 1: But like, there definitely has been a turning point. Um.

846
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 1: Like one of the big refrains that I've seen, like

847
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:01,560
Speaker 1: personally in that one has been saying, right is that

848
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:04,919
Speaker 1: Ukrainians are so calm. Look at these pictures of them

849
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,600
Speaker 1: like shopping in malls and like going to school. What

850
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 1: else are you supposed to do? Honestly, what else are

851
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 1: we supposed to do. But I mean that this true

852
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:18,279
Speaker 1: people have been called but since yesterday evening there definitely

853
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 1: has been a shift, um, and even casual conversation, uh

854
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 1: in key of like I was sitting, to paraphrase a

855
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 1: famous columnists usual framing, I was sitting in a cafe

856
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:37,080
Speaker 1: and overhearing the wait staff chat amongst themselves. Um, and

857
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 1: obviously the the the whole conversation is, oh is Putin

858
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:45,319
Speaker 1: going to push into Kiev? And anecdotally we're semi anecdotally,

859
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 1: I guess, um, apartment prices in the western cities like

860
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:53,400
Speaker 1: in Leviv and us Grade have really spiked up, like incredibly, U.

861
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 1: So people are I wouldn't call that that's a depressing

862
00:52:57,239 --> 00:52:59,359
Speaker 1: way to pay attention to, that a reason to pay

863
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:03,799
Speaker 1: attention to at Like, I wouldn't call it a mass panic. Um.

864
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:06,960
Speaker 1: There's no like bank runs, no, like all the stores

865
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:10,799
Speaker 1: are stocked. No, one's like hoarding. Um. But at the

866
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 1: same time, there is a study trickle of people going

867
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:18,800
Speaker 1: west and kind of making plains at this point. Yeah,

868
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 1: and UM, so this to kind of give people a

869
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 1: little bit more context before we get into some of

870
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:32,160
Speaker 1: the more political dimensions of this UM Right now, there

871
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:37,320
Speaker 1: has not been a massive escalation, UM of violence outside

872
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:39,959
Speaker 1: of the areas where there have been fighting for several years.

873
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 1: You know, there has been an escalation on the front

874
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 1: line that's existed since UM, but there has not been like,

875
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:49,240
Speaker 1: you know, troops pouring across the border in other areas

876
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:53,800
Speaker 1: and stuff. And that's obviously probably the number one worry. UM.

877
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:57,759
Speaker 1: It looks like what's about to happen is or at

878
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 1: least it's hard to say, because put has recognized the

879
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:06,680
Speaker 1: borders of this breakaway part of Ukraine as significantly larger

880
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:09,320
Speaker 1: than the area they actually control, and he has moved troops,

881
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:12,800
Speaker 1: Russian active duty troops into that area. Now, Russian troops,

882
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 1: I'm from what I've heard about three thousand have been

883
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:19,120
Speaker 1: in the breakaway areas for years now, UM, but a

884
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:23,719
Speaker 1: significant yeah, a significant number have been added now. And

885
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 1: obviously the fear is that because he has recognized the

886
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 1: territory of these these quote unquote in his terms breakaway

887
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 1: republics is being much larger than what they control, that

888
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:36,800
Speaker 1: Russian troops are going to participate with the separatists UM

889
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:42,040
Speaker 1: in attacking and taking those territories from the Ukrainian government. UM.

890
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:45,680
Speaker 1: That's one concern, obviously, the the concern attached to that

891
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:49,520
Speaker 1: is that it would be not at all inconceivable for

892
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:52,279
Speaker 1: a conflict that started that way to spread to a

893
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:56,799
Speaker 1: much wider part of Ukraine. Um, this is all coming

894
00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 1: alongside a speech Putin gave that unfortunate. He is gonna

895
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:05,359
Speaker 1: be one of those things people here about in history books. Um. Yeah,

896
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 1: God damn mind. And it's one of those things. We

897
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:13,239
Speaker 1: will talk some more about how the Western left sometimes

898
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:15,719
Speaker 1: I don't want to be like because this is also

899
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:18,799
Speaker 1: largely the the online left, but how the online left

900
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:21,680
Speaker 1: talks about Putin sometimes. This was not a I want

901
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 1: to return to the Soviet Union at speech. This was

902
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:27,360
Speaker 1: I want to return to czarist Russia's borders type speech.

903
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:32,600
Speaker 1: Like the guy has the czarist imperial crest emblazoned on

904
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 1: the gates to his palace. So I'm really not sure

905
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:39,040
Speaker 1: what people would have expected. And unfortunately he's better at

906
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:41,760
Speaker 1: his job than any of the last tsars were because

907
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 1: he's he's achieved a notable amount of success towards that

908
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 1: goal already. Um, and yeah, he a number of things

909
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 1: that were it's one of those like one of the

910
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:55,560
Speaker 1: things he said, which is a line that folks like

911
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:58,840
Speaker 1: him in Russia have been saying for a while is

912
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 1: that you Ukranes, the existence of Ukraine as an independent

913
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 1: polity is a mistake. And as an anarchist, you know,

914
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:09,279
Speaker 1: there's this like, well, yeah, I don't I don't like

915
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:12,000
Speaker 1: the Ukrainian state. I don't like any state in particular.

916
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:14,440
Speaker 1: But if you're if your only disagreement is with the

917
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:17,400
Speaker 1: statehood of Ukraine and you're fine with the state of Russia,

918
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:21,000
Speaker 1: you know, then then perhaps what you actually think is

919
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 1: that people in Ukraine should not have any autonomy to

920
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:28,399
Speaker 1: disagree with the government in Moscow. Um. And I think

921
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:32,920
Speaker 1: that's the case here. Um. There's a there's similarities between

922
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:36,359
Speaker 1: how Putin and those like him in Russia treat Ukrainians

923
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:40,520
Speaker 1: um with how, for example, the Turks treat Kurds in

924
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:42,359
Speaker 1: the southern part of the country. There's this this thing

925
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:44,400
Speaker 1: you'll hear a lot from Turkey, where like, there's no

926
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:47,239
Speaker 1: Kurds in Turkey, They're they're mountain Turks who have lost

927
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 1: their their language. And there's this denial from Putin in

928
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:55,320
Speaker 1: the Russians that Ukrainians are a people, that they exist,

929
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:57,959
Speaker 1: and there this this is a something that has translated.

930
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,520
Speaker 1: Most people have heard versions of this and just any

931
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:03,160
Speaker 1: of the coverage you've heard of Ukraine, if you've ever

932
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:05,839
Speaker 1: heard of it referred to as the Ukraine. What that

933
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 1: is is part of a very old um line that

934
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:13,840
Speaker 1: kind of exists to allow Russians to deny the existence

935
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:15,799
Speaker 1: of Ukrainians as a people and make it make it

936
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 1: seem more like it's just kind of a geographic region,

937
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:21,720
Speaker 1: which is not the case. And why you wouldn't refer

938
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:24,000
Speaker 1: to you wouldn't call it the Ukraine anymore than you

939
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:27,040
Speaker 1: would call it the Canada. Um, it just isn't the

940
00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:30,680
Speaker 1: way you, you say, should say that. But um, Yeah,

941
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:34,320
Speaker 1: So I think that's at least enough of a background

942
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 1: to get into the real media of what we want

943
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:37,800
Speaker 1: to talk about. So, and I'm just going to kind

944
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:40,640
Speaker 1: of open this up to you to chat about what

945
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:43,520
Speaker 1: you'd like to say and what you think needs to

946
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:48,240
Speaker 1: be gotten across to the international left, because internationalism is

947
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:50,520
Speaker 1: something we value a lot here and it has been

948
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:57,840
Speaker 1: hard to find in this conflict. Yeah, Like growing up

949
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:01,760
Speaker 1: in New York in the nine ease, one of the

950
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 1: core values I kind of absorbed, I guess through osmosis

951
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:11,040
Speaker 1: is the value that every single person I met, regardless

952
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 1: of whatever corner of the world they came from, is

953
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:18,600
Speaker 1: the exact same beings me, UM, And it wasn't. And

954
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:21,959
Speaker 1: and that kind of realization was one of the things

955
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 1: that I guess, I wouldn't say pushed, but UM conspired

956
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 1: to to turn me into a leftist, a socialist, Marxist UM.

957
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:36,200
Speaker 1: And part of that, especially when I was learning about

958
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 1: what the hell all these isms were UM, was internationalism,

959
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:44,840
Speaker 1: the idea that well, our struggle isn't within the the

960
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:49,160
Speaker 1: fabricated borders of whatever UM polity has has decided to

961
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:54,960
Speaker 1: impose their their authority UM. But internationally, every single worker

962
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:57,760
Speaker 1: is the same as every other worker. We're all struggling

963
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:02,680
Speaker 1: with the same issues, We're all fighting the same forces, UM,

964
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:07,760
Speaker 1: and generally speaking, we have the same enemies. Now fast

965
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:12,840
Speaker 1: forward too, Uh, I go online and what do I see? Well,

966
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:17,960
Speaker 1: Ukrainians are all Nazis or Ukraine shouldn't exist, or how

967
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:20,800
Speaker 1: can we support either of those? It's two fascist states

968
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:24,120
Speaker 1: fighting each other. And I'm sorry, Ukraine has got a

969
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 1: population of forty four million. You want to tell me

970
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:30,400
Speaker 1: that every single one of those forty four million or

971
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 1: Nazis like people don't even say that about Germany. Yeah,

972
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 1: they were literally the Nazi state, I mean, nor the

973
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:41,880
Speaker 1: United States, um for that man, Like, we had four

974
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:48,080
Speaker 1: years of Trump and openly fascist authoritarian leader, and no

975
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 1: one seems to say, well, I guess the U s

976
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:52,720
Speaker 1: should be bombed. Well, I guess there are some. I mean,

977
00:59:52,720 --> 00:59:55,280
Speaker 1: there's definitely there's definitely people who say that, but yeah,

978
00:59:55,360 --> 01:00:00,680
Speaker 1: but generally speaking, that's not exactly of the view that

979
01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:05,280
Speaker 1: people take, right. Um. So it's it's been a long

980
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:09,600
Speaker 1: process of disappointment. Well, I say, long, Um, there's always

981
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:13,400
Speaker 1: been the kind of well what are these people really

982
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:18,760
Speaker 1: think about Ukraine? But breaft of such a strong impetus

983
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 1: to take a side, I guess, um that hasn't been

984
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:25,120
Speaker 1: in the forefront. And now every day I see people

985
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:27,520
Speaker 1: that I would have considered comrades, that I would have

986
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:33,400
Speaker 1: considered um friends and brothers, just kind of turned their

987
01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:37,440
Speaker 1: back on me. Because I live here, right, any any aggression,

988
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:42,120
Speaker 1: any action that's taken will literally affect me physically sitting

989
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:46,960
Speaker 1: here and cube. Um. So it's been it's been really

990
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:51,720
Speaker 1: really immensely disheartening to see that every single value um

991
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:53,880
Speaker 1: that I thought the left was supposed to value that

992
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:57,360
Speaker 1: that I thought the left was built on UM between

993
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 1: by people with rows emojis or hammering sickles in their

994
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:06,800
Speaker 1: user names, or whatever the hell it is. And we

995
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:09,640
Speaker 1: should probably talk about some of why this is and

996
01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:12,480
Speaker 1: what the what the history is here. So, the most

997
01:01:12,560 --> 01:01:15,280
Speaker 1: kind of direct thing that people can point to when

998
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:17,280
Speaker 1: they when they call Ukraine a fascist state or when

999
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 1: they talk about this is the existence of the ass

1000
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:22,560
Speaker 1: Off Battalion the AS of Italian as a paramilitary organization.

1001
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 1: That means it's it's not officially a part of the

1002
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:30,160
Speaker 1: governmental military structure, but it it does receive has received

1003
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:34,320
Speaker 1: arms from the government, and it UH functions as part

1004
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:38,840
Speaker 1: of Ukraine's defense forces UM for the for the purposes

1005
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:42,440
Speaker 1: of fighting off the Russian back separatists UM and the

1006
01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:45,160
Speaker 1: AS of Italian and Nazis. There's there's you know, the

1007
01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:48,600
Speaker 1: the you can There's been a tremendous amount of reporting

1008
01:01:48,640 --> 01:01:51,640
Speaker 1: on that. On that matter, it's a big problem in

1009
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:55,160
Speaker 1: the Ukrainian government deserves a significant amount of criticism for

1010
01:01:55,960 --> 01:01:58,400
Speaker 1: the degree to which as OFF has been allowed to

1011
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:02,200
Speaker 1: continue existing UM. But there's also a lot that gets

1012
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:05,439
Speaker 1: left out when people focus on that, including the fact that,

1013
01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:08,600
Speaker 1: for example, the political wing of as off right sector,

1014
01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:10,360
Speaker 1: which is kind of the that would be fair to

1015
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:12,240
Speaker 1: call it the umbrella term for like the far right

1016
01:02:12,280 --> 01:02:16,240
Speaker 1: parties in the ukrain Ukrainian government have been pretty effectively

1017
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:21,160
Speaker 1: siloed away from political power through very active measures to

1018
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:25,320
Speaker 1: about like what is one percent of um like representation,

1019
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 1: and so it didn't actually pass the threshold tantra the

1020
01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:32,840
Speaker 1: new barliament. Yeah, they're they're nonentity politically, they're just non

1021
01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 1: popular there um campaigns failed, their models fail, their agitation fails.

1022
01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:42,960
Speaker 1: Ukrainians do not want to vote for Nazis. Yeah, and

1023
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:46,600
Speaker 1: it's it is. It is a an ugly situation. And

1024
01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 1: I remember talking with when I was reporting on the

1025
01:02:49,160 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 1: midn uprisings, which is when, again for people who aren't

1026
01:02:53,200 --> 01:02:56,600
Speaker 1: up on recent Ukrainian history, they had a president who

1027
01:02:57,040 --> 01:03:00,640
Speaker 1: tried to do a dictatorship m and people rose up

1028
01:03:00,640 --> 01:03:02,840
Speaker 1: and fought him in the streets. Um. It was a

1029
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:05,720
Speaker 1: very gnarly time. About two d people were shot by

1030
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 1: government forces UM. And eventually the president was forced to

1031
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:11,960
Speaker 1: flee the country, which is what precipitated everything that's happening

1032
01:03:11,960 --> 01:03:14,920
Speaker 1: now because that president was pretty closely tied with Putin

1033
01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:19,280
Speaker 1: and the people fighting him. Um, we're not all they

1034
01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:22,160
Speaker 1: were not pro NATO rebels, but they were more definitely

1035
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:24,800
Speaker 1: more supportive of closer ties with Western Europe than they

1036
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:27,560
Speaker 1: were with Russia. UM. And that again, those are kind

1037
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:32,600
Speaker 1: of the precipitating events for everything that happened that's happening now. Um.

1038
01:03:32,640 --> 01:03:35,520
Speaker 1: And some of the people who were fighting the president's

1039
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:38,840
Speaker 1: forces were fascists. Um. And it's one of those things.

1040
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:41,760
Speaker 1: I remember talking with protesters at the time who were like, well,

1041
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:44,040
Speaker 1: am I supposed to get in fight with them at

1042
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:45,919
Speaker 1: the same time as I'm trying not to get shot

1043
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:48,240
Speaker 1: by riot police, Like what what do you expect me

1044
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:51,400
Speaker 1: to do? And it is a nasty situation, and it's

1045
01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:55,440
Speaker 1: one of those things. Um. I don't know, Like I

1046
01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:58,440
Speaker 1: I don't know what to tell people about that, because

1047
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:05,400
Speaker 1: it's it's it's ugly, and it's uncomfortable and it's messy.

1048
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:10,120
Speaker 1: And that's also Ukrainian history. There's a lot of ugly, uncomfortable,

1049
01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:12,760
Speaker 1: messy things here is there's with every country's history. It

1050
01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:16,200
Speaker 1: doesn't mean people in Kiev deserve to have their housing

1051
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:19,520
Speaker 1: blocks pounded by Russian artillery. Doesn't mean that people Indivka

1052
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:23,240
Speaker 1: deserve to have their homes pounded by artillery UM. And

1053
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:26,040
Speaker 1: whatever criticisms you want to make about how the Russian

1054
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:28,439
Speaker 1: government or how the Ukrainian government has handled as Off,

1055
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:31,640
Speaker 1: and there are many criticisms to make, that's not really

1056
01:04:31,640 --> 01:04:34,640
Speaker 1: relevant to the people living in these areas having their

1057
01:04:34,640 --> 01:04:37,960
Speaker 1: homes destroyed on a daily basis by mortar fire. I

1058
01:04:38,040 --> 01:04:40,560
Speaker 1: just want to make like a couple of things really clear.

1059
01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:46,560
Speaker 1: The as Off Batallion is like a thousand guys like Max.

1060
01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:50,680
Speaker 1: And the reason, one of the reasons at least that

1061
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:53,400
Speaker 1: they rose to such prominence in the beginning wasn't only

1062
01:04:53,480 --> 01:04:57,600
Speaker 1: there um ability to to mobilize in the early stages

1063
01:04:57,640 --> 01:05:01,200
Speaker 1: of the Russian war against Ukraine. It was also because

1064
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:04,680
Speaker 1: they had very strong financial backing UM from the former

1065
01:05:04,720 --> 01:05:09,920
Speaker 1: Interior Minister um Arsenovakav and Ivankav is no longer in power. UH.

1066
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:14,040
Speaker 1: And one of the things you can see immediately was

1067
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:19,280
Speaker 1: the like almost nullifying of fascist street marshes and fascist

1068
01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:24,560
Speaker 1: demonstrations UM in Kiev outside the President's office. That all

1069
01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:30,120
Speaker 1: vanished because more like in Ukraine, ideology is not very strong.

1070
01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:32,240
Speaker 1: And this is something UM that I've noticed a lot

1071
01:05:32,240 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 1: of people UH from the US in Europe have trouble

1072
01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:41,480
Speaker 1: understanding about Ukrainian politics. People here are not really ideological.

1073
01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:45,280
Speaker 1: Our parties don't map aside from a couple of outliers

1074
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:48,640
Speaker 1: like rights actor UM, it doesn't really map to any

1075
01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:52,920
Speaker 1: left right access UM. People typically will always want the

1076
01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:56,440
Speaker 1: same policies, like they always want a pension, they always

1077
01:05:56,440 --> 01:05:59,280
Speaker 1: want UM universal health care to be better, they always

1078
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:03,840
Speaker 1: want the roads fit UM generally policy something most Ukrainians

1079
01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:06,720
Speaker 1: actually agree on UM. As a result, most of our

1080
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:10,400
Speaker 1: elections are purely personality based. That's one of the reasons

1081
01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:15,440
Speaker 1: Zelenski Voldemer's Lenski, our current president, one was because he

1082
01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:19,440
Speaker 1: was a well known comedian. Yeah, and people liked his personality,

1083
01:06:19,520 --> 01:06:22,000
Speaker 1: and he put out a whole TV show as a

1084
01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:26,520
Speaker 1: PR stunt before launching his campaign, and people voted for

1085
01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:32,600
Speaker 1: that personality based on screen. H And so when there

1086
01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:35,600
Speaker 1: was far right activity, and again I want to stress

1087
01:06:35,640 --> 01:06:40,000
Speaker 1: that that activity, even the street activity, has almost disappeared.

1088
01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:44,720
Speaker 1: It's because the far right is typically used in Ukraine

1089
01:06:44,760 --> 01:06:48,040
Speaker 1: as a political tool by one oligarc We're one interest

1090
01:06:48,080 --> 01:06:52,560
Speaker 1: group against another. That's why when the money disappeared, they disappeared.

1091
01:06:52,920 --> 01:06:57,120
Speaker 1: Because the leaderships, the leadership of these fascist groups typically speaking,

1092
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:03,160
Speaker 1: we're not um that ideological themselves. But they did like

1093
01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:06,400
Speaker 1: having USUV s, and they did like buying guns and

1094
01:07:07,200 --> 01:07:10,680
Speaker 1: um hiring hookers and doing drugs. Like they liked the

1095
01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:13,080
Speaker 1: money and that's why they did it. And they would

1096
01:07:13,120 --> 01:07:15,960
Speaker 1: convince a bunch of teenagers to go out and wave

1097
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:20,120
Speaker 1: a couple of torches and march or chant. But these

1098
01:07:20,120 --> 01:07:24,760
Speaker 1: guys were really purely for the money. Um And again

1099
01:07:24,800 --> 01:07:27,080
Speaker 1: you can tell that because when their financial backer disappeared,

1100
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:30,040
Speaker 1: I don't in order to be found. Yeah, And it's

1101
01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:31,560
Speaker 1: one of those one of the things that is very

1102
01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:34,800
Speaker 1: frustrating to me. I can't remember one of the earliest

1103
01:07:34,840 --> 01:07:38,240
Speaker 1: projects that I did that was like a for belling

1104
01:07:38,240 --> 01:07:40,680
Speaker 1: cat as we were there was a Pride march in

1105
01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:43,160
Speaker 1: Kiev that got attacked by Nazis. This was a couple

1106
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:45,400
Speaker 1: of years back, and we were kind of trying to

1107
01:07:45,440 --> 01:07:48,520
Speaker 1: identify the individual fascists who are like beating people in

1108
01:07:48,560 --> 01:07:53,000
Speaker 1: the street, and it's spending hours pouring over that footage.

1109
01:07:53,120 --> 01:07:56,880
Speaker 1: It makes it incredibly frustrating that there are people outside

1110
01:07:56,880 --> 01:07:58,840
Speaker 1: of the country boiling it down to while all of

1111
01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:01,560
Speaker 1: those people are fascists, all of those people are part

1112
01:08:01,560 --> 01:08:04,000
Speaker 1: of a fascist state. It's like, no, a lot of

1113
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:06,960
Speaker 1: those people, quite a few Ukrainians have fought Nazis in

1114
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:11,040
Speaker 1: the streets, you know. Um, that's the reality of the situation.

1115
01:08:11,240 --> 01:08:17,200
Speaker 1: And it's it's um, and it's it's ugly in part

1116
01:08:17,400 --> 01:08:21,599
Speaker 1: because if you actually want to look at what's been happening,

1117
01:08:22,360 --> 01:08:25,800
Speaker 1: uh with the Russian back separatists, there's a lot of

1118
01:08:26,439 --> 01:08:31,520
Speaker 1: fascists over there. Um. There's a lot of paramilitary organizations

1119
01:08:31,520 --> 01:08:33,760
Speaker 1: and like far right groups that have been used by

1120
01:08:33,760 --> 01:08:38,800
Speaker 1: the Russian government. Yeah. Yeah, literally literally them because they're

1121
01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:44,479
Speaker 1: fascist leader yeah Liken like many Nazis. It's it's it's

1122
01:08:44,520 --> 01:08:49,559
Speaker 1: hard to to understand, honestly from my perspective, um, because

1123
01:08:49,720 --> 01:08:53,840
Speaker 1: not only is Russian fascism have far more influence on

1124
01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:57,280
Speaker 1: Russian policy than any Ukrainian fascists has ever had in

1125
01:08:57,360 --> 01:09:01,040
Speaker 1: Ugrainian baals Um, it's also that the Russian project and

1126
01:09:01,080 --> 01:09:05,439
Speaker 1: the narrative they use. Um. There there's this joke they

1127
01:09:05,479 --> 01:09:08,720
Speaker 1: call are not really joke, a slurred they call they

1128
01:09:08,720 --> 01:09:12,599
Speaker 1: call Ukrainians nazy's been darists um for those who don't

1129
01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:19,679
Speaker 1: Open Darrow was a Ukrainian nationalist leader partisan fought against

1130
01:09:19,680 --> 01:09:26,000
Speaker 1: the Soviets UH and he his organization was implicated in

1131
01:09:26,479 --> 01:09:29,479
Speaker 1: quite a few war crimes, significant number of war crimes,

1132
01:09:29,880 --> 01:09:34,760
Speaker 1: war crimes. UH so clearly been near himself, probably not

1133
01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:40,960
Speaker 1: a great guy, yeah, but to delegitimize all Ukrainian kind

1134
01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:43,759
Speaker 1: of independence movements that I've propped up over the years,

1135
01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:46,439
Speaker 1: the Soviet government and now the Russian government has always

1136
01:09:46,479 --> 01:09:50,959
Speaker 1: always insisted that there is no legitimate way for Ukraine

1137
01:09:51,439 --> 01:09:54,320
Speaker 1: to be independent where all Nats He's been Darists no

1138
01:09:54,360 --> 01:09:57,400
Speaker 1: matter what. And that's why you had UM. There's a

1139
01:09:57,400 --> 01:10:00,320
Speaker 1: picture a couple of days ago of a solid erry

1140
01:10:00,360 --> 01:10:06,720
Speaker 1: Marsha Kiev UM with UH some of Kiev's LGBT community

1141
01:10:06,880 --> 01:10:12,240
Speaker 1: holding up Bandera's flags, not because they're gay Nazis, because

1142
01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:18,400
Speaker 1: it's a way of yeah, retaking this slur back from

1143
01:10:18,439 --> 01:10:22,360
Speaker 1: the Russians. And it's all part of the complicating factor

1144
01:10:22,439 --> 01:10:27,439
Speaker 1: here is that because of how geo politics worked out

1145
01:10:27,479 --> 01:10:30,760
Speaker 1: in that period of time, there are very uncomfortable but

1146
01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:36,679
Speaker 1: kind of inextricable ties between UH Ukrainian, the basic idea

1147
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:41,040
Speaker 1: of Ukraine being a nation independent from Russia and anti communism,

1148
01:10:41,080 --> 01:10:44,520
Speaker 1: And because of what was going on in anti communism

1149
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:47,120
Speaker 1: in that period of time we're talking the thirties and forties.

1150
01:10:47,479 --> 01:10:51,040
Speaker 1: It means that a decent number of those early Ukrainian

1151
01:10:51,120 --> 01:10:55,959
Speaker 1: nationalists were either directly implicated with the Nazis like Bandera,

1152
01:10:56,080 --> 01:10:59,040
Speaker 1: or at least had uncomfortable ties. And that's a messy

1153
01:10:59,080 --> 01:11:02,280
Speaker 1: part of history that shouldn't shied away from. But for example,

1154
01:11:02,360 --> 01:11:04,880
Speaker 1: the same thing is true of Finland, Like do you

1155
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:08,880
Speaker 1: can say the exact same thing about sucking Finnish nationalism,

1156
01:11:08,960 --> 01:11:13,240
Speaker 1: Finnish sovereignty and whatnot, um, And people don't call Finland

1157
01:11:13,240 --> 01:11:16,680
Speaker 1: a Nazi nation um even though yeah, the fact that

1158
01:11:16,720 --> 01:11:18,760
Speaker 1: they were stuck between the U S s R. And

1159
01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:21,320
Speaker 1: Nazi Germany means that there were a lot of Fins

1160
01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:23,240
Speaker 1: in that period of time who made some real fucked

1161
01:11:23,320 --> 01:11:27,880
Speaker 1: up choices, um like. But also there's a lot that

1162
01:11:27,920 --> 01:11:31,679
Speaker 1: has to be like, you can't adequately discuss why those

1163
01:11:31,760 --> 01:11:33,559
Speaker 1: choices were made if you don't talk about, for example,

1164
01:11:33,560 --> 01:11:36,519
Speaker 1: the holodomor you know, which was the starvation genocide of

1165
01:11:36,520 --> 01:11:40,920
Speaker 1: several million Ukrainians by the Soviet government. Like honestly, to

1166
01:11:41,280 --> 01:11:45,160
Speaker 1: go back even further, um and to I don't know,

1167
01:11:46,280 --> 01:11:48,880
Speaker 1: burnish my leftist prodountion a little bit. If you go

1168
01:11:49,000 --> 01:11:53,519
Speaker 1: back to the Civil War itself, where UM a lot

1169
01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:57,599
Speaker 1: of this started. Most of the nationalist groups, I would

1170
01:11:57,600 --> 01:11:59,599
Speaker 1: say nearly all of them. There were one or two

1171
01:11:59,640 --> 01:12:03,080
Speaker 1: monarchy minor monarchist groups in Ukraine, but the grand majority

1172
01:12:03,080 --> 01:12:07,679
Speaker 1: of them were in fact socialism or socialist. They had

1173
01:12:08,240 --> 01:12:11,080
Speaker 1: like the hammer and sickle and wheat on their currency

1174
01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:14,639
Speaker 1: and everything, because at the time that was what one

1175
01:12:14,760 --> 01:12:20,639
Speaker 1: votes UH from the peasantry. But when the Bolsheviks crushed

1176
01:12:20,760 --> 01:12:26,559
Speaker 1: every independent Ukrainian social movement in exchange for bureaucrats that

1177
01:12:26,600 --> 01:12:32,960
Speaker 1: they imported from the Empire and just shoved into Ukrainian cities, H, Well,

1178
01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:36,360
Speaker 1: then you had Ukrainians that wanted to be independent and

1179
01:12:36,400 --> 01:12:39,840
Speaker 1: wanted to have a better life than under the CSAR. Well,

1180
01:12:39,880 --> 01:12:44,120
Speaker 1: now suddenly they don't even have that support UM from

1181
01:12:44,240 --> 01:12:49,400
Speaker 1: the Bolsheviks. UH. And obviously, as a Ukrainian UM, I

1182
01:12:49,439 --> 01:12:52,920
Speaker 1: can't talk about this without bringing up Nestro Macnu, who

1183
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:55,720
Speaker 1: was a anarchist leader, the leader of the Ukrainian Black

1184
01:12:55,840 --> 01:12:59,719
Speaker 1: Army UM during the Civil War and what happened to them, Well,

1185
01:13:00,080 --> 01:13:03,439
Speaker 1: the Bolsheviks betrayed them and killed all of them, and

1186
01:13:03,520 --> 01:13:06,320
Speaker 1: of course the movement UH and then smeared them all

1187
01:13:06,520 --> 01:13:10,519
Speaker 1: is um how to file rapist cannibals if I remember correctly. Yeah, yeah,

1188
01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:14,160
Speaker 1: there's a lot of of of disinformation you can find

1189
01:13:14,200 --> 01:13:17,439
Speaker 1: about that time, just like today, you know, only the

1190
01:13:17,520 --> 01:13:22,200
Speaker 1: names have changed exactly. So if there is no other

1191
01:13:22,320 --> 01:13:27,880
Speaker 1: outlet for Ukrainian nationalism and the group that you thought

1192
01:13:27,920 --> 01:13:32,360
Speaker 1: maybe an ally in UH destroying the empire in granting

1193
01:13:32,400 --> 01:13:35,600
Speaker 1: you self determination turns out to be a continuation of

1194
01:13:35,640 --> 01:13:40,880
Speaker 1: that exact empire, well it's pretty logical. Maybe not right,

1195
01:13:40,880 --> 01:13:43,519
Speaker 1: but it is pretty logical for people go to the

1196
01:13:43,680 --> 01:13:45,760
Speaker 1: for people to go to the other extream. And it's

1197
01:13:45,800 --> 01:13:47,680
Speaker 1: one of those One of the things I think that

1198
01:13:47,680 --> 01:13:50,720
Speaker 1: should be noted more, as we talked about earlier, is

1199
01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:55,080
Speaker 1: that one of these stories of Ukrainian politics, particularly in

1200
01:13:55,120 --> 01:13:58,599
Speaker 1: the last got close to a decade since the Maidan,

1201
01:13:59,640 --> 01:14:04,679
Speaker 1: is that at mainstream Ukrainian political leaders and Ukrainian voters

1202
01:14:04,680 --> 01:14:08,639
Speaker 1: have overwhelmingly rejected that sort of nationalism this time around,

1203
01:14:08,800 --> 01:14:11,599
Speaker 1: UM and have gone out of their way to silo

1204
01:14:11,680 --> 01:14:14,800
Speaker 1: it out of active political power, UM in a way

1205
01:14:14,800 --> 01:14:16,880
Speaker 1: that one could argue is more successful than has been

1206
01:14:16,920 --> 01:14:23,240
Speaker 1: done in the United States. UM. And absolutely we didn't trump. Yeah, no,

1207
01:14:23,400 --> 01:14:28,160
Speaker 1: you get you guys basically elected John Stewart. Um pretty much.

1208
01:14:28,200 --> 01:14:31,479
Speaker 1: I mean that was his Um. Yeah, it was his

1209
01:14:31,640 --> 01:14:35,560
Speaker 1: whole thing. He put on satirical political sketches, that was

1210
01:14:35,640 --> 01:14:40,679
Speaker 1: the entire show. Um, we did basically elect John Stewart.

1211
01:14:40,760 --> 01:14:43,960
Speaker 1: And you know, I have my criticisms of Zelenski, um

1212
01:14:44,000 --> 01:14:47,280
Speaker 1: as a lot of people do. Uh. And one of

1213
01:14:47,280 --> 01:14:50,120
Speaker 1: the things we love saying in Ukraine whenever people are like, oh,

1214
01:14:50,280 --> 01:14:52,040
Speaker 1: look at all the look at all the Nazis there,

1215
01:14:52,320 --> 01:14:55,920
Speaker 1: We're so not We're so anti semitic that we elected

1216
01:14:56,080 --> 01:14:59,559
Speaker 1: a Jewish comedian. That's how. That's how anti semitical we are.

1217
01:15:00,360 --> 01:15:03,320
Speaker 1: That we have huge minoures standing in the middle of

1218
01:15:03,439 --> 01:15:06,960
Speaker 1: Kieva during the high holidays, that's how. That's how antisemitic

1219
01:15:07,040 --> 01:15:11,519
Speaker 1: we are. Yeah. And and Zelinski's uh prime minister is

1220
01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:14,439
Speaker 1: also a Jewish man, which makes Ukraine the second country

1221
01:15:14,439 --> 01:15:18,200
Speaker 1: in the world to have a Jewish president and prime minister. Um. Yeah,

1222
01:15:18,240 --> 01:15:20,840
Speaker 1: Like we don't care because it's not it doesn't even

1223
01:15:20,920 --> 01:15:24,719
Speaker 1: come up in campaigns like what even when Romney was running,

1224
01:15:24,720 --> 01:15:28,840
Speaker 1: you'd see Democratic campaigns painting is a scary Mormon or

1225
01:15:29,800 --> 01:15:34,040
Speaker 1: the ads implying and you don't even have that level

1226
01:15:34,080 --> 01:15:38,640
Speaker 1: of religious antipathy in Ukraine. It's it's it's just a

1227
01:15:38,760 --> 01:15:42,400
Speaker 1: much more complicated We're actually talking about the problems of

1228
01:15:42,439 --> 01:15:45,360
Speaker 1: the far right and and a fascism, you know, in Ukraine.

1229
01:15:45,360 --> 01:15:48,320
Speaker 1: It's a much more complicated story than a lot of

1230
01:15:48,360 --> 01:15:51,760
Speaker 1: people on you know, social media or whatnot want to

1231
01:15:51,800 --> 01:15:54,280
Speaker 1: give it credit to, because it's just easy to some

1232
01:15:54,400 --> 01:15:57,400
Speaker 1: things up in one sentence and not have to care

1233
01:15:57,960 --> 01:16:01,120
Speaker 1: about a looming humanitarian catash strophie. But that is what

1234
01:16:01,160 --> 01:16:04,559
Speaker 1: we are looking at. If this invasion, it will be bad.

1235
01:16:05,040 --> 01:16:08,680
Speaker 1: If Russia uses active forces in order to take the

1236
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:12,880
Speaker 1: remainder of those two provinces from the Ukrainian government, it

1237
01:16:12,960 --> 01:16:18,519
Speaker 1: will be a nightmare of almost unimaginable consequence. If the

1238
01:16:18,600 --> 01:16:22,840
Speaker 1: invasion proceeds on the wider scale that is possible at

1239
01:16:22,840 --> 01:16:28,960
Speaker 1: this point. Um and no, no, please, yeah, UM. I've

1240
01:16:28,960 --> 01:16:32,320
Speaker 1: been a dumor on this basically since I first heard

1241
01:16:32,320 --> 01:16:36,559
Speaker 1: about the build up. Um because Putin has made it

1242
01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:39,400
Speaker 1: very clear over the years what he considers Ukraine to be.

1243
01:16:39,479 --> 01:16:42,960
Speaker 1: Like you mentioned, he doesn't think that Ukraine should exist

1244
01:16:43,200 --> 01:16:49,320
Speaker 1: as like a polity. Um. And as a result, I

1245
01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:52,400
Speaker 1: have pretty much this whole time been pretty sure that

1246
01:16:52,439 --> 01:16:55,320
Speaker 1: he's going to attack you. UM. And now we're coming

1247
01:16:55,360 --> 01:17:00,160
Speaker 1: to a very definite tipping point. Um. Just today put

1248
01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:03,320
Speaker 1: has made a lot of moves, UM. Like you mentioned,

1249
01:17:03,360 --> 01:17:08,040
Speaker 1: he authorized military force to be used um in the

1250
01:17:08,080 --> 01:17:11,000
Speaker 1: Damas and actually he's gone further. He's authorized military force

1251
01:17:11,120 --> 01:17:15,000
Speaker 1: to be used abroad, UH, which I mean obviously that

1252
01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:18,639
Speaker 1: means Ukraine. Where else that's where his like the about

1253
01:17:18,760 --> 01:17:22,960
Speaker 1: I think seventy of the entire Russian army is currently

1254
01:17:23,000 --> 01:17:26,599
Speaker 1: around Ukraine or close enough that they can reinforce um

1255
01:17:26,760 --> 01:17:30,080
Speaker 1: without a lot of ye, at least of the active duty,

1256
01:17:30,080 --> 01:17:34,639
Speaker 1: because the Russian military there's a smaller actually competent, right

1257
01:17:34,720 --> 01:17:40,160
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, yes, yeah, but the professional the contract soldiers yes, um.

1258
01:17:40,240 --> 01:17:45,640
Speaker 1: And especially on the northern border, Uh, there are a

1259
01:17:45,720 --> 01:17:50,120
Speaker 1: lot of battalion tact groups that are basically sitting and waiting,

1260
01:17:50,160 --> 01:17:53,720
Speaker 1: I guess for whatever the order will be eventually, um.

1261
01:17:53,760 --> 01:17:59,280
Speaker 1: And in Belarus, and since Putin has given this authorization

1262
01:17:59,320 --> 01:18:03,320
Speaker 1: to operate a rod and he stated that he recognizes

1263
01:18:03,439 --> 01:18:06,960
Speaker 1: these puppet authorities as I qual him um, that he

1264
01:18:07,000 --> 01:18:11,719
Speaker 1: recognizes their borders as the entirety of the Donetsk luconsk

1265
01:18:12,080 --> 01:18:15,360
Speaker 1: oh BLUs, which again only a third of those territories

1266
01:18:15,400 --> 01:18:18,320
Speaker 1: are under the de facto control of the public authorities.

1267
01:18:19,200 --> 01:18:22,920
Speaker 1: Two thirds of both provinces are still under Ukrainian government control,

1268
01:18:23,880 --> 01:18:28,320
Speaker 1: including the the critical port city of Marineople. And now

1269
01:18:28,360 --> 01:18:31,160
Speaker 1: that Putin has authorized forced to be used abroad, well,

1270
01:18:33,439 --> 01:18:37,600
Speaker 1: it's kind of I mean, at least it is incredibly

1271
01:18:37,720 --> 01:18:40,240
Speaker 1: obvious to me what the next steps are from the

1272
01:18:40,280 --> 01:18:43,559
Speaker 1: Russian perspective if I want to subjugate you, right, um,

1273
01:18:44,320 --> 01:18:47,960
Speaker 1: And I think a big failing here is people in

1274
01:18:48,120 --> 01:18:51,559
Speaker 1: the West, especially the western left. Um, no, very little

1275
01:18:52,160 --> 01:18:56,639
Speaker 1: of for example, the Chechian Wars, especially the Second War,

1276
01:18:56,880 --> 01:19:02,360
Speaker 1: and what happened to Rosnie. Yeah, um, Africa during that war,

1277
01:19:02,439 --> 01:19:05,680
Speaker 1: and what the Russians did the subjects that population. And

1278
01:19:06,560 --> 01:19:10,280
Speaker 1: if anyone thinks that Putin treasures Ukrainian lives any more

1279
01:19:10,280 --> 01:19:13,040
Speaker 1: than he did Chechen lives, then I've got a bridge

1280
01:19:13,080 --> 01:19:16,080
Speaker 1: of the protosylum. Though you should act now because the

1281
01:19:16,160 --> 01:19:18,920
Speaker 1: valley's gonna drop real fast. Yeah. And it's one of

1282
01:19:18,960 --> 01:19:23,559
Speaker 1: those if you, as a good leftist, have spent a

1283
01:19:23,600 --> 01:19:26,719
Speaker 1: significant amount of time reading about the horrific crimes of

1284
01:19:26,720 --> 01:19:30,160
Speaker 1: of imperialist nations in Africa and Southeast Asia. In the

1285
01:19:30,200 --> 01:19:36,200
Speaker 1: America's UM. What the Russian Federation did there is on

1286
01:19:36,240 --> 01:19:39,439
Speaker 1: that scale. It's it's absolutely on that scale. It was.

1287
01:19:39,640 --> 01:19:46,559
Speaker 1: It was a titanically ugly war. UM. And any modernly

1288
01:19:46,640 --> 01:19:49,640
Speaker 1: we can look at what they did in Syria or

1289
01:19:49,680 --> 01:19:52,320
Speaker 1: what they are doing in Syria, what they continue to

1290
01:19:52,360 --> 01:19:56,040
Speaker 1: do in Syria. UM. But as it turns out, UM,

1291
01:19:56,320 --> 01:19:59,519
Speaker 1: Syrians learned this lesson that I am learning now abou

1292
01:20:00,120 --> 01:20:05,200
Speaker 1: portions of the UM Western left a long time ago. Yeah,

1293
01:20:05,240 --> 01:20:08,160
Speaker 1: which is that if you can find, for example, some

1294
01:20:08,240 --> 01:20:13,160
Speaker 1: Syrian rebels who are shitty and Islamists or whatever, you

1295
01:20:13,200 --> 01:20:16,280
Speaker 1: can tear every single person whoever stood up against Bashar

1296
01:20:16,360 --> 01:20:20,080
Speaker 1: al assad as A as a terrorist UM, which is

1297
01:20:20,160 --> 01:20:23,559
Speaker 1: really easy, especially if you're getting paid Kremlin money to

1298
01:20:23,920 --> 01:20:27,880
Speaker 1: advance that line and you your name is Ben Norton.

1299
01:20:30,080 --> 01:20:33,360
Speaker 1: This brings us to the place where there really aren't

1300
01:20:33,640 --> 01:20:36,599
Speaker 1: clear answers, which is like what can be done? And

1301
01:20:36,600 --> 01:20:40,240
Speaker 1: it is one of those things where it's like, well, uh,

1302
01:20:40,280 --> 01:20:42,840
Speaker 1: that's not an easy question, because you do have to

1303
01:20:42,920 --> 01:20:45,040
Speaker 1: when you start grappling with like all right, well, like

1304
01:20:45,240 --> 01:20:49,320
Speaker 1: should what should NATO do? What should other European non

1305
01:20:49,400 --> 01:20:53,440
Speaker 1: NATO nations do? Like what what what is actually capable

1306
01:20:53,960 --> 01:20:58,320
Speaker 1: of like potentially altering or disrupting the courses of action

1307
01:20:58,360 --> 01:21:01,280
Speaker 1: here while we're talking about the Russian state, which has

1308
01:21:01,400 --> 01:21:04,720
Speaker 1: a lot of nukes, Um, we're talking about a situation

1309
01:21:04,760 --> 01:21:06,840
Speaker 1: that could spiral out of control in a way that

1310
01:21:07,000 --> 01:21:12,040
Speaker 1: very few situations globally are capable of potentially spiring spiraling

1311
01:21:12,040 --> 01:21:15,080
Speaker 1: out of control. And so it is a not a

1312
01:21:15,120 --> 01:21:18,120
Speaker 1: situation where anyone who tells you this is clearly the

1313
01:21:18,200 --> 01:21:20,759
Speaker 1: thing to do that will work, is I think trying

1314
01:21:20,760 --> 01:21:24,640
Speaker 1: to is probably full of ship and a little unhinged um,

1315
01:21:24,640 --> 01:21:28,880
Speaker 1: because this is a real fucking ugly one. Um. But

1316
01:21:29,880 --> 01:21:32,160
Speaker 1: some of what has been done. Um, we just got

1317
01:21:32,240 --> 01:21:34,720
Speaker 1: the news today that I think we both found surprising,

1318
01:21:34,720 --> 01:21:37,880
Speaker 1: but it is very positive that the Germans have canceled

1319
01:21:38,400 --> 01:21:41,120
Speaker 1: construction of the Nord Stream to pipeline, which is a

1320
01:21:41,160 --> 01:21:45,760
Speaker 1: gas pipeline from Russia into the EU. Um that a

1321
01:21:45,800 --> 01:21:47,880
Speaker 1: lot of folks were saying Germany was not going to

1322
01:21:47,960 --> 01:21:51,200
Speaker 1: take any sort of stances, solid stances on Ukraine's behalf

1323
01:21:51,240 --> 01:21:54,640
Speaker 1: because of that pipeline, Because of how Germany, along with

1324
01:21:54,680 --> 01:21:57,879
Speaker 1: a lot of Western Europe, is tremendously reliant upon Russian

1325
01:21:57,880 --> 01:22:00,920
Speaker 1: gas exports. Um, for just like keep themselves heated in

1326
01:22:00,960 --> 01:22:05,320
Speaker 1: the winter. UM. So that's a positive move. I I

1327
01:22:05,400 --> 01:22:09,360
Speaker 1: tend to be critical of the ability of sanctions to

1328
01:22:09,479 --> 01:22:12,680
Speaker 1: do much. UM. And if we're looking historically at sanctions,

1329
01:22:13,080 --> 01:22:16,280
Speaker 1: particularly how they're most often implied, they have a tendency

1330
01:22:16,360 --> 01:22:18,559
Speaker 1: to just harm regular people more than they have to

1331
01:22:18,600 --> 01:22:19,920
Speaker 1: do it. Like we can look at the sanctions in

1332
01:22:19,960 --> 01:22:23,320
Speaker 1: Iraq right which which we're part of why something like

1333
01:22:23,360 --> 01:22:27,639
Speaker 1: a million people starved. Um. We are talking about different

1334
01:22:27,760 --> 01:22:29,960
Speaker 1: kinds of sanctions in general, and we're talking about the

1335
01:22:30,000 --> 01:22:33,400
Speaker 1: sanctions being imposed by NATO countries against the Russian state

1336
01:22:33,479 --> 01:22:37,960
Speaker 1: right now. They're largely sanctions against members of the Duma. UM,

1337
01:22:38,000 --> 01:22:41,840
Speaker 1: There's there's a lot. It's not the same as looking

1338
01:22:41,840 --> 01:22:45,160
Speaker 1: at like what was being done to Saddam's Iraq. That said,

1339
01:22:45,200 --> 01:22:48,800
Speaker 1: I'm still very hesitant to say I think that sanctions

1340
01:22:48,800 --> 01:22:51,799
Speaker 1: are going to disrupt Putin's course of action. I'm curious

1341
01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:55,519
Speaker 1: what you think can and should be done here, you know,

1342
01:22:55,640 --> 01:22:58,479
Speaker 1: like what is do you have any kind of clear

1343
01:22:58,560 --> 01:23:00,800
Speaker 1: idea in your own head about what might have a

1344
01:23:00,840 --> 01:23:05,360
Speaker 1: disruptive effect on on what Putin is doing? Learned to

1345
01:23:05,400 --> 01:23:07,680
Speaker 1: teleport and shoot Putin in the head with a nimillionator.

1346
01:23:08,280 --> 01:23:10,439
Speaker 1: I mean that would be that would be great. There's

1347
01:23:10,439 --> 01:23:15,680
Speaker 1: a can we that had we that teleportation capacity, there

1348
01:23:15,680 --> 01:23:18,640
Speaker 1: would be a list. You know, we never put my

1349
01:23:18,680 --> 01:23:24,320
Speaker 1: skill points into that. UM. But realistically speaking, the Russian

1350
01:23:24,360 --> 01:23:26,920
Speaker 1: state is authoritarian. It doesn't really care what its own

1351
01:23:26,960 --> 01:23:31,320
Speaker 1: citizens think. It definitely doesn't care what other people think. However, UM,

1352
01:23:31,439 --> 01:23:36,880
Speaker 1: Russia has been, at least in um the modern realm,

1353
01:23:36,920 --> 01:23:43,360
Speaker 1: relatively image conscious UM, which is why I think one

1354
01:23:43,439 --> 01:23:46,639
Speaker 1: thing that could work, for example or not, could work,

1355
01:23:46,720 --> 01:23:52,000
Speaker 1: but would perhaps force the Russian state to consider its

1356
01:23:52,040 --> 01:23:54,839
Speaker 1: actions a little bit more carefully. And I want to

1357
01:23:54,880 --> 01:23:56,920
Speaker 1: be very clear when I talk about the Russian state,

1358
01:23:56,920 --> 01:24:01,120
Speaker 1: I'm talking about Putin himself. Yeah, the government, he has

1359
01:24:01,160 --> 01:24:06,200
Speaker 1: no there's no like other decision makers in Russia. And

1360
01:24:06,240 --> 01:24:10,880
Speaker 1: that was actually perfectly encapsulated UM during his speech the

1361
01:24:10,880 --> 01:24:15,760
Speaker 1: other day where he just outright, um like eviscerated the

1362
01:24:15,800 --> 01:24:19,200
Speaker 1: head of his foreign intelligence service. I'm live TV for

1363
01:24:20,120 --> 01:24:23,560
Speaker 1: the whole world to see just utterly humiliated the guy

1364
01:24:23,600 --> 01:24:27,599
Speaker 1: for no real reason, just because he can and you

1365
01:24:27,640 --> 01:24:32,040
Speaker 1: could see that. And we're talking about Russia's top spy.

1366
01:24:32,080 --> 01:24:36,880
Speaker 1: I mean, beyond Puttin himself stammering like a frightened school

1367
01:24:36,960 --> 01:24:40,479
Speaker 1: child when Puttin addressed him, just with just a hint

1368
01:24:40,479 --> 01:24:43,080
Speaker 1: of sharpness. Um. So when I say to the Russians, say,

1369
01:24:43,120 --> 01:24:46,559
Speaker 1: I'm referring literally to the body in person of of

1370
01:24:46,560 --> 01:24:52,160
Speaker 1: of Vladiman Puttin. Um, and like, honestly, yeah, I would

1371
01:24:52,240 --> 01:24:55,400
Speaker 1: love to see people pick it Russian embassies and make

1372
01:24:55,439 --> 01:24:59,880
Speaker 1: demonstrations and marches and so on. Um do I think

1373
01:25:00,160 --> 01:25:04,080
Speaker 1: will have a practical, real effect, to be honest. No,

1374
01:25:04,200 --> 01:25:09,200
Speaker 1: same with the sanctions. Um, I'm sure Putin's pet oligarchs

1375
01:25:09,439 --> 01:25:14,240
Speaker 1: and members of his party and the uh the people

1376
01:25:14,400 --> 01:25:18,480
Speaker 1: that in theory keep him in power. Um, the oligarchs,

1377
01:25:18,680 --> 01:25:23,400
Speaker 1: the the prolmentarians, the mafia lords and so on. I'm

1378
01:25:23,439 --> 01:25:25,960
Speaker 1: sure they're gonna be pretty mift if their yachts and

1379
01:25:26,040 --> 01:25:29,799
Speaker 1: their multimillion dollar properties in Miami and New York, in London,

1380
01:25:29,920 --> 01:25:33,160
Speaker 1: and the villainism the French Riviera when when all that

1381
01:25:33,200 --> 01:25:36,960
Speaker 1: gets taken, I'm sure they'll they'll be pretty annoyed. Um.

1382
01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:40,200
Speaker 1: But I don't think Putin cares. I think that he

1383
01:25:40,320 --> 01:25:47,759
Speaker 1: has a really irrational um desire to subjugate Kiev, specifically, Um,

1384
01:25:47,800 --> 01:25:52,920
Speaker 1: he sees Kiev as Um what we call in Russian

1385
01:25:53,000 --> 01:25:56,719
Speaker 1: the mother of all Russian cities. Yeah, it's the um,

1386
01:25:56,880 --> 01:26:00,400
Speaker 1: the mainplace of the Kivan Ruce. Yeah, the word Russian

1387
01:26:00,479 --> 01:26:03,720
Speaker 1: comes from Kievan rus you know, exactly exactly. And I

1388
01:26:03,800 --> 01:26:08,519
Speaker 1: just don't think that Putin is going to turn away

1389
01:26:08,560 --> 01:26:12,680
Speaker 1: from that goal because a couple of his buddies are

1390
01:26:12,720 --> 01:26:15,360
Speaker 1: complaining that they're mega yachts got taken in by the

1391
01:26:15,400 --> 01:26:18,679
Speaker 1: British authorities or whatever. Nor do I think they're gonna

1392
01:26:18,880 --> 01:26:20,759
Speaker 1: care that. You know, there are a couple of marchers

1393
01:26:20,760 --> 01:26:23,240
Speaker 1: outside of embassies in New York or something. Um, but

1394
01:26:23,960 --> 01:26:26,800
Speaker 1: that may help spur the world as a whole, the

1395
01:26:26,840 --> 01:26:31,320
Speaker 1: international community into taking a harder line stance against because

1396
01:26:31,360 --> 01:26:34,360
Speaker 1: timing comes time and again. Um, Like, the guy's a gangster,

1397
01:26:34,680 --> 01:26:37,280
Speaker 1: he's he's like a security service thug. If you've ever

1398
01:26:37,960 --> 01:26:42,960
Speaker 1: like interacted with like a petty like sergeant, police sergeant

1399
01:26:43,040 --> 01:26:46,360
Speaker 1: or something that has just a bit of authority and

1400
01:26:46,439 --> 01:26:48,960
Speaker 1: pretty much show immunity that that's put into a t

1401
01:26:49,800 --> 01:26:54,400
Speaker 1: um the dude thinks he's over educated, uh and the

1402
01:26:54,439 --> 01:26:58,679
Speaker 1: cleverest manble Yeah, I think, but reality, the way he talks,

1403
01:26:58,680 --> 01:27:01,240
Speaker 1: in the way he's acts, he's just a bull. He's

1404
01:27:01,320 --> 01:27:04,560
Speaker 1: he's he's got the same basic personality as like Villanueva,

1405
01:27:04,680 --> 01:27:08,360
Speaker 1: you know, the fucking head of the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department.

1406
01:27:08,360 --> 01:27:10,960
Speaker 1: He's like, not like a beat cop, but like one

1407
01:27:11,000 --> 01:27:13,080
Speaker 1: of the cops who rises to run a union or

1408
01:27:13,120 --> 01:27:18,080
Speaker 1: run a city police department. Yeah, he's good at consolidating power.

1409
01:27:18,200 --> 01:27:21,599
Speaker 1: He's good at at exercising or organizing others to exercise

1410
01:27:21,680 --> 01:27:23,800
Speaker 1: violence on his behalf. But yeah, at the end of

1411
01:27:23,800 --> 01:27:26,240
Speaker 1: the day, he is primarily a bully. And it's one

1412
01:27:26,280 --> 01:27:31,320
Speaker 1: of those Um, I don't know. Like when it comes

1413
01:27:31,360 --> 01:27:37,960
Speaker 1: to arms shipments, that is a historically Again, if you

1414
01:27:38,000 --> 01:27:42,280
Speaker 1: look at the history of particular like let's just say

1415
01:27:42,280 --> 01:27:46,400
Speaker 1: specifically NATO shipping arms places most of the time, that

1416
01:27:46,439 --> 01:27:49,679
Speaker 1: does not improve the situation for people in that country.

1417
01:27:49,720 --> 01:27:52,759
Speaker 1: That that has been a historical reality of arms Shipment's

1418
01:27:52,760 --> 01:27:55,120
Speaker 1: not just with NATO as a general rule everywhere, when

1419
01:27:55,120 --> 01:27:57,679
Speaker 1: you ship more guns into an area, that that rarely

1420
01:27:58,120 --> 01:28:02,599
Speaker 1: improves quality of life. Um. But we are not talking

1421
01:28:02,640 --> 01:28:08,400
Speaker 1: about a country that has had any kind of centralized

1422
01:28:08,439 --> 01:28:11,200
Speaker 1: political legitimacy or what not collapse. You're not talking about

1423
01:28:11,240 --> 01:28:13,080
Speaker 1: a country that is in the middle of tearing itself

1424
01:28:13,120 --> 01:28:17,479
Speaker 1: apart between thirty or forty different sides. Um. It's not

1425
01:28:17,600 --> 01:28:20,559
Speaker 1: the same situation as while at ship a bunch of

1426
01:28:20,560 --> 01:28:24,400
Speaker 1: guns to Libya, you know. Um, it just isn't there

1427
01:28:24,400 --> 01:28:28,720
Speaker 1: different histories, different political realities on the ground. I don't

1428
01:28:28,760 --> 01:28:31,360
Speaker 1: know that I actually think any amount of arms shipments

1429
01:28:31,520 --> 01:28:37,040
Speaker 1: would dissuade Putin from advancing either. Um, But I I

1430
01:28:37,080 --> 01:28:40,200
Speaker 1: don't know what else to do. I certainly am not

1431
01:28:40,280 --> 01:28:42,560
Speaker 1: against the idea of like, Okay, guys have some A

1432
01:28:42,680 --> 01:28:44,880
Speaker 1: G T M s, you know, have some wire guided missiles,

1433
01:28:44,880 --> 01:28:48,400
Speaker 1: have some javelins, um, because like, what else are you

1434
01:28:48,400 --> 01:28:51,439
Speaker 1: gonna do? Um? I mean, we're not going to And

1435
01:28:51,479 --> 01:28:54,000
Speaker 1: I'm certainly not saying we should send US troops in

1436
01:28:54,320 --> 01:29:00,120
Speaker 1: um because again we have to consider the nuclear situation too. Um.

1437
01:29:00,400 --> 01:29:03,760
Speaker 1: What do you think is where are your thoughts there? Um?

1438
01:29:03,800 --> 01:29:06,960
Speaker 1: Because this is something that I I'm very I'm very

1439
01:29:07,040 --> 01:29:10,240
Speaker 1: mixed on, although again I'm broadly fine with Yeah, I mean,

1440
01:29:10,280 --> 01:29:14,599
Speaker 1: at least give people the ability to fight back. Yeah,

1441
01:29:14,680 --> 01:29:19,519
Speaker 1: it's a difficult one, especially like you noted, the military

1442
01:29:19,560 --> 01:29:23,519
Speaker 1: industrial complex has very rarely improved any situation in the

1443
01:29:23,520 --> 01:29:28,560
Speaker 1: world anywhere. Yep, this might be one of the few exceptions, UM,

1444
01:29:28,600 --> 01:29:33,120
Speaker 1: because the fact is that Ukraine doesn't really have the

1445
01:29:33,160 --> 01:29:36,439
Speaker 1: tools to defend these to defend ourselves we have UM,

1446
01:29:36,640 --> 01:29:39,040
Speaker 1: or at least our government claims that we have the

1447
01:29:39,080 --> 01:29:41,080
Speaker 1: strongest army in Europe, which, to be honest, with all

1448
01:29:41,160 --> 01:29:44,479
Speaker 1: the defense cuts that Europe can come made, that may

1449
01:29:44,520 --> 01:29:47,400
Speaker 1: be true at least on the ground sense. Certainly the

1450
01:29:47,439 --> 01:29:51,240
Speaker 1: most combat experienced army and here yeah, absolutely UM. But

1451
01:29:51,320 --> 01:29:55,800
Speaker 1: what we lack entirely is air power and air defense UM.

1452
01:29:55,840 --> 01:29:58,600
Speaker 1: And what Russia has in spades is air power and

1453
01:29:58,640 --> 01:30:02,679
Speaker 1: air defense. And as we saw UM when the US

1454
01:30:03,280 --> 01:30:07,880
Speaker 1: invaded Rock, Well, you can destroy conventional army in a

1455
01:30:07,960 --> 01:30:11,000
Speaker 1: couple of days by just bombing the ship out of

1456
01:30:11,000 --> 01:30:14,960
Speaker 1: it uh. And the Russians have quite a few missiles

1457
01:30:15,760 --> 01:30:19,040
Speaker 1: UM aimed straight at Kiev UH, and quite a view

1458
01:30:19,080 --> 01:30:22,280
Speaker 1: planes waiting on standby, I presume to bomb the ship

1459
01:30:22,320 --> 01:30:25,120
Speaker 1: out of Kiev UH. And it would be nice to

1460
01:30:25,200 --> 01:30:29,599
Speaker 1: have some way to to defend ourselves against that UM.

1461
01:30:29,680 --> 01:30:32,880
Speaker 1: But again there's there's not much that can be said. Yeah,

1462
01:30:32,920 --> 01:30:35,920
Speaker 1: of course, stingers and javelins and so on, UM. That

1463
01:30:36,040 --> 01:30:39,840
Speaker 1: will all help raise the costs of the occupation. That

1464
01:30:39,920 --> 01:30:45,040
Speaker 1: follows the initial bombardment. But if Putin goes for the

1465
01:30:45,080 --> 01:30:48,960
Speaker 1: strategy that ASSAD has used in Syria, which is bomb

1466
01:30:49,080 --> 01:30:52,240
Speaker 1: the living ship out of every civilian um residential area

1467
01:30:52,280 --> 01:30:55,160
Speaker 1: in the city until the people just submit or are

1468
01:30:55,200 --> 01:30:59,040
Speaker 1: all dead, um, well, there's not really too much we

1469
01:30:59,080 --> 01:31:02,960
Speaker 1: can do about that. And that is like, there is

1470
01:31:03,000 --> 01:31:08,560
Speaker 1: a lot that individual that that trained and motivated soldiers

1471
01:31:08,680 --> 01:31:13,519
Speaker 1: with small arms and munitions like javelins can do even

1472
01:31:13,560 --> 01:31:17,840
Speaker 1: to resist a country with with overwhelming air power. The

1473
01:31:18,120 --> 01:31:21,960
Speaker 1: corollary to that is that in doing that a lot

1474
01:31:22,000 --> 01:31:25,599
Speaker 1: of stuff everyone around them dies. The city has turned

1475
01:31:25,640 --> 01:31:28,200
Speaker 1: into a graveyard. Um. I've I've seen that with my

1476
01:31:28,240 --> 01:31:32,640
Speaker 1: own eyes. And that's that's I mean, got to be

1477
01:31:32,680 --> 01:31:35,080
Speaker 1: the thing if you're looking at this with any kind

1478
01:31:35,120 --> 01:31:37,920
Speaker 1: of reasonable lies and not just like trying to find

1479
01:31:38,160 --> 01:31:41,599
Speaker 1: a political angle to support, that has to be your

1480
01:31:41,640 --> 01:31:45,720
Speaker 1: main concern is that the potential here is for a

1481
01:31:45,720 --> 01:31:49,200
Speaker 1: tremendous loss of life and also for the creation of

1482
01:31:49,280 --> 01:31:52,920
Speaker 1: millions of refugees. Um. And this is something in another

1483
01:31:53,760 --> 01:31:57,559
Speaker 1: of audio clip that you published a bit earlier on Twitter,

1484
01:31:58,160 --> 01:32:01,400
Speaker 1: you say, which is that like, if the goes as

1485
01:32:01,439 --> 01:32:04,920
Speaker 1: badly as it can, no matter what your politics are,

1486
01:32:05,120 --> 01:32:10,440
Speaker 1: this will become your problem. Yeah. I stand behind that absolutely,

1487
01:32:10,520 --> 01:32:16,800
Speaker 1: because there are a lot of Ukrainians and while most

1488
01:32:16,880 --> 01:32:20,360
Speaker 1: of us have no desire to live under the Russian yoke,

1489
01:32:21,080 --> 01:32:24,160
Speaker 1: the majority of us are not trained fighters. Were just people,

1490
01:32:24,840 --> 01:32:27,960
Speaker 1: just regular people. And I know, especially in the US,

1491
01:32:28,520 --> 01:32:33,560
Speaker 1: um with our like out of control gun culture, imagining

1492
01:32:34,080 --> 01:32:37,160
Speaker 1: like they're the singular guy, you know, they're they're the

1493
01:32:37,160 --> 01:32:41,360
Speaker 1: macho man with with all the guns. They take down

1494
01:32:41,360 --> 01:32:45,120
Speaker 1: the government all by themselves. I'm sorry, it's a fantasy.

1495
01:32:45,160 --> 01:32:48,679
Speaker 1: It's a fiction. Um, that is not how things work. Uh.

1496
01:32:48,720 --> 01:32:53,559
Speaker 1: And quite frankly, most people are not psychologically suited to combat.

1497
01:32:53,800 --> 01:32:56,840
Speaker 1: That's why armies take so long to break soldiers down

1498
01:32:56,920 --> 01:32:59,120
Speaker 1: to teach them to murder people, because that is not

1499
01:32:59,200 --> 01:33:03,920
Speaker 1: something humans do. Actually, and the majority of people subjected

1500
01:33:03,960 --> 01:33:07,040
Speaker 1: to that kind of violence will run. And again there

1501
01:33:07,080 --> 01:33:10,160
Speaker 1: are forty four million of us, and they will run

1502
01:33:10,240 --> 01:33:12,920
Speaker 1: and run and run. Pretty much everyone in the world.

1503
01:33:13,000 --> 01:33:16,000
Speaker 1: You saw this with Syria, sell this with Libya. Um,

1504
01:33:16,280 --> 01:33:18,320
Speaker 1: you've seen this pretty much with every single place that

1505
01:33:18,640 --> 01:33:21,920
Speaker 1: has experienced massive violence in the modern world. Um, that's

1506
01:33:21,960 --> 01:33:25,280
Speaker 1: the reaction. Yeah, and it's when we run, we bring

1507
01:33:25,720 --> 01:33:29,360
Speaker 1: all of our biases and problems and cultural predilections to

1508
01:33:29,560 --> 01:33:36,160
Speaker 1: you m hm. And it's yeah, I mean that's that's

1509
01:33:36,200 --> 01:33:39,559
Speaker 1: really the note to end on and it is you

1510
01:33:39,600 --> 01:33:43,240
Speaker 1: get a lot of folks you know who who rightly

1511
01:33:43,439 --> 01:33:46,240
Speaker 1: you know, focus on and think a lot about revolutionary

1512
01:33:46,240 --> 01:33:50,280
Speaker 1: struggles in places like Vietnam and um in an Afghanistan

1513
01:33:50,360 --> 01:33:52,880
Speaker 1: and will point out that like, well, you don't need

1514
01:33:52,960 --> 01:33:58,439
Speaker 1: to have as advanced to military as your opponent to win.

1515
01:33:58,720 --> 01:34:02,559
Speaker 1: And again, just the corallarity to that, all, Yeah, the

1516
01:34:02,600 --> 01:34:05,680
Speaker 1: corellary to that is that like, yeah, but millions of

1517
01:34:05,800 --> 01:34:09,160
Speaker 1: people die. Millions of people died in Afghanistan, millions of

1518
01:34:09,200 --> 01:34:14,240
Speaker 1: people died in Vietnam. Um, that's that, that is the reality. Yeah,

1519
01:34:14,280 --> 01:34:18,280
Speaker 1: you can resist an imperial power with minimal technology, but

1520
01:34:18,560 --> 01:34:21,000
Speaker 1: you're not going to leave that fight with a family

1521
01:34:21,040 --> 01:34:26,439
Speaker 1: alive still, you know, Like that's that's how it goes. Um.

1522
01:34:26,479 --> 01:34:34,160
Speaker 1: So let's all say a little prayer for I don't know, peace, Uh,

1523
01:34:34,320 --> 01:34:40,920
Speaker 1: I hope the worst doesn't happen. Um. What has there

1524
01:34:40,960 --> 01:34:44,920
Speaker 1: been kind of mobilization that you've seen within the the

1525
01:34:45,040 --> 01:34:49,320
Speaker 1: activist the anarchist community in in Kiev, um too? You know,

1526
01:34:49,360 --> 01:34:51,080
Speaker 1: any kind of mutual aid stuff like or is it

1527
01:34:51,120 --> 01:34:54,519
Speaker 1: just one of those situations where it hasn't started happening

1528
01:34:54,600 --> 01:34:56,920
Speaker 1: yet and nobody really knows what would even be useful

1529
01:34:56,960 --> 01:35:01,960
Speaker 1: to do if it does. I'll see this, Um. It

1530
01:35:02,080 --> 01:35:04,760
Speaker 1: may come as a little bit of a shock, but

1531
01:35:04,880 --> 01:35:12,439
Speaker 1: anarchists not typically the best organized. UM. Specifically like a

1532
01:35:12,439 --> 01:35:15,519
Speaker 1: lot of my uh the friends who are active in

1533
01:35:15,560 --> 01:35:19,920
Speaker 1: the anarchist um movement in Ukraine have simply joined the

1534
01:35:20,040 --> 01:35:24,960
Speaker 1: territorial defense battalions or the regular army and will simply

1535
01:35:24,960 --> 01:35:30,200
Speaker 1: fight as soldiers. UM. There has been a very strong

1536
01:35:32,040 --> 01:35:35,920
Speaker 1: I don't know if you called denial UM. A colleague

1537
01:35:35,920 --> 01:35:38,280
Speaker 1: of mine used the term doomed optimism, and I really

1538
01:35:38,280 --> 01:35:39,479
Speaker 1: like the sound of that, so let's go with that.

1539
01:35:39,960 --> 01:35:42,960
Speaker 1: There's been this really strong doomed optimism amongst Ukrainians that

1540
01:35:43,040 --> 01:35:45,719
Speaker 1: the worst will not happen and there's no real reason

1541
01:35:45,800 --> 01:35:48,680
Speaker 1: to prepare for anything, because well, things are going to

1542
01:35:48,760 --> 01:35:52,280
Speaker 1: be fine, um. And that's what our government tells us

1543
01:35:52,320 --> 01:35:54,360
Speaker 1: as well, things are going to be fine. They don't

1544
01:35:54,360 --> 01:35:57,960
Speaker 1: see any massive attack groups or I mean, I feel

1545
01:35:58,000 --> 01:36:00,760
Speaker 1: like that's contradicted by the the opens intelligence that I've

1546
01:36:00,760 --> 01:36:04,479
Speaker 1: been looking at. But I I am just one guy.

1547
01:36:04,600 --> 01:36:10,160
Speaker 1: I obviously don't have intelligence apparatus of a nation state. UM.

1548
01:36:10,200 --> 01:36:14,759
Speaker 1: So I mean maybe they're right, Um, but generally speaking,

1549
01:36:14,800 --> 01:36:19,280
Speaker 1: people have just been joining the army, going to um

1550
01:36:19,320 --> 01:36:23,479
Speaker 1: tactical trainings. Um. But this is all very basic stuff

1551
01:36:23,479 --> 01:36:25,960
Speaker 1: like going the woods, learn how to set up camp

1552
01:36:26,120 --> 01:36:30,960
Speaker 1: and you know, clean a rifle kind of kind of things. UM.

1553
01:36:31,080 --> 01:36:33,920
Speaker 1: Nothing like combat training, because where would you get that

1554
01:36:33,960 --> 01:36:36,639
Speaker 1: except by joining the army and going to the front. Yeah,

1555
01:36:36,680 --> 01:36:39,000
Speaker 1: it's the kind of training that might keep in the

1556
01:36:39,000 --> 01:36:41,040
Speaker 1: event of a full conflict when out of ten of

1557
01:36:41,080 --> 01:36:43,120
Speaker 1: those people alive long enough to learn how to fight,

1558
01:36:43,439 --> 01:36:46,160
Speaker 1: and and that might be worth it. Yeah, I mean yeah,

1559
01:36:46,240 --> 01:36:49,240
Speaker 1: if you're talking about like, yes, not not to say

1560
01:36:49,360 --> 01:36:53,200
Speaker 1: people shouldn't be doing that, because people should do whatever

1561
01:36:53,200 --> 01:36:58,200
Speaker 1: they can. Um, how are you kindada close out like

1562
01:36:58,320 --> 01:37:02,519
Speaker 1: as this Like doom scrolling is the thing we all

1563
01:37:02,520 --> 01:37:05,240
Speaker 1: talk about, and there's there's plenty image sitting here in Portland.

1564
01:37:05,320 --> 01:37:08,000
Speaker 1: We just had a mass shooting on a protest this weekend,

1565
01:37:08,040 --> 01:37:09,720
Speaker 1: and so there's a lot of doom scrolling going on

1566
01:37:09,760 --> 01:37:12,519
Speaker 1: in my community. But we're not staring down the barrel

1567
01:37:12,560 --> 01:37:17,160
Speaker 1: of a hundred and ninety thousand soldiers, you know, potentially uh,

1568
01:37:17,439 --> 01:37:21,360
Speaker 1: hitting us from the air and ground simultaneously. How do

1569
01:37:21,479 --> 01:37:25,200
Speaker 1: you How are you like focusing on the stuff that

1570
01:37:25,240 --> 01:37:27,040
Speaker 1: you can do anything about and the stuff that you

1571
01:37:27,040 --> 01:37:33,080
Speaker 1: can productively handle without losing yourself in that opious amounts

1572
01:37:33,080 --> 01:37:37,200
Speaker 1: of cannabis. That's good. I'm glad you guys have decent

1573
01:37:37,240 --> 01:37:41,639
Speaker 1: pod access. Yeah. I actually don't know what I'll do if, um,

1574
01:37:41,960 --> 01:37:46,760
Speaker 1: if my current supplies got out to be quite honest, um,

1575
01:37:46,800 --> 01:37:53,559
Speaker 1: But I mean it's been definitely a struggle. Um. And

1576
01:37:53,720 --> 01:37:56,680
Speaker 1: the past couple of days, especially my mental health has

1577
01:37:56,720 --> 01:38:05,840
Speaker 1: not been especially great. Um. But again, I'm one dude, Like,

1578
01:38:06,200 --> 01:38:09,160
Speaker 1: I'm not in very good shape. I have or vision,

1579
01:38:09,200 --> 01:38:11,800
Speaker 1: one of my eyes don't work, I'm diabetic. Like, I'm

1580
01:38:11,840 --> 01:38:14,080
Speaker 1: not gonna go out and grab a rifle and start

1581
01:38:14,160 --> 01:38:17,160
Speaker 1: killing every rooskie I see, you know. Um. But at

1582
01:38:17,160 --> 01:38:19,120
Speaker 1: the same time, I've got a job to do. I

1583
01:38:20,320 --> 01:38:24,320
Speaker 1: as an English language journalist in Ukraine. Um, I have

1584
01:38:24,840 --> 01:38:27,760
Speaker 1: this is your busy season, Yeah, it's my busies. Like

1585
01:38:29,080 --> 01:38:31,960
Speaker 1: one of my jobs is to counter Russian distealinformation and

1586
01:38:32,040 --> 01:38:35,519
Speaker 1: to like tell people the truth of what is going

1587
01:38:35,520 --> 01:38:39,120
Speaker 1: on here. Um, And that role will only get more

1588
01:38:39,160 --> 01:38:44,840
Speaker 1: important if the the conflict expands, um from from the

1589
01:38:45,360 --> 01:38:48,400
Speaker 1: scope that it is now. Uh So how am I doing? Well?

1590
01:38:48,439 --> 01:38:55,200
Speaker 1: I'm still alive, um, having off myself and uh I'm

1591
01:38:55,200 --> 01:38:58,920
Speaker 1: still I'm still working. So I think as as good

1592
01:38:58,920 --> 01:39:03,400
Speaker 1: as I can be under the circumstances. Yeah yeah, Um,

1593
01:39:03,520 --> 01:39:07,240
Speaker 1: well I hope your weeds supply stays stable um at

1594
01:39:07,240 --> 01:39:12,040
Speaker 1: the very fucking fingers. Yeah. Um. All right, Well, thank

1595
01:39:12,080 --> 01:39:14,479
Speaker 1: you so much for coming on the show, Romeo. UM,

1596
01:39:14,600 --> 01:39:16,040
Speaker 1: do you have anything you want to plug kind of

1597
01:39:16,080 --> 01:39:19,360
Speaker 1: as we as we go out here? Um, just if

1598
01:39:19,520 --> 01:39:23,679
Speaker 1: you really want to know about what's going down in Ukraine,

1599
01:39:24,360 --> 01:39:26,920
Speaker 1: I am co host of the podcast called you Grain

1600
01:39:26,960 --> 01:39:30,679
Speaker 1: without Hype and find it on any podcast platform um.

1601
01:39:30,680 --> 01:39:33,360
Speaker 1: And if you really want to get a look out

1602
01:39:33,680 --> 01:39:37,559
Speaker 1: what's going on in English um with only a tinge

1603
01:39:37,560 --> 01:39:42,080
Speaker 1: of leftist bias, um, then tune in. You can follow

1604
01:39:42,120 --> 01:39:45,320
Speaker 1: us on Twitter Hype Ukraine um and again on any

1605
01:39:45,360 --> 01:39:50,599
Speaker 1: podcast platform that you you so desire. Awesome, Well check

1606
01:39:50,640 --> 01:39:55,920
Speaker 1: out Romeo there, check out this podcast, and you know,

1607
01:39:56,360 --> 01:39:59,240
Speaker 1: just try to keep your eyes on the situation and

1608
01:40:00,640 --> 01:40:05,320
Speaker 1: let yourself be uh overwhelmed by what some random person

1609
01:40:05,320 --> 01:40:08,320
Speaker 1: on Twitter tries to sum it up. As you know,

1610
01:40:08,479 --> 01:40:19,360
Speaker 1: people are more complicated than that. And we're live here

1611
01:40:19,439 --> 01:40:22,800
Speaker 1: outside the Perez family home, just waiting for the and

1612
01:40:23,000 --> 01:40:25,960
Speaker 1: there they go, almost on time. This morning. Mom is

1613
01:40:26,040 --> 01:40:28,479
Speaker 1: coming out the front door strong with a double arm

1614
01:40:28,600 --> 01:40:31,400
Speaker 1: kid carry. Looks like Dad has the bags. Daughter is

1615
01:40:31,439 --> 01:40:35,560
Speaker 1: bringing up the rear. Oh but the diaper bag wasn't closed.

1616
01:40:35,680 --> 01:40:40,439
Speaker 1: Diapers and toys are everywhere. Oh but Mom has just

1617
01:40:40,680 --> 01:40:44,040
Speaker 1: nailed the perfect car seat buckle for the toddler. And

1618
01:40:44,120 --> 01:40:46,519
Speaker 1: now the eldest daughter, who looks to be about nine

1619
01:40:46,600 --> 01:40:49,400
Speaker 1: or ten, has secured herself and the booster seat. Dad

1620
01:40:49,520 --> 01:40:53,320
Speaker 1: zips the bag clothes and they're off. Ah, but looks

1621
01:40:53,360 --> 01:40:55,640
Speaker 1: like Mom doesn't realize her coffee cup is still on

1622
01:40:55,680 --> 01:41:00,200
Speaker 1: the roof of the car, and there it goes. It's

1623
01:41:00,240 --> 01:41:03,240
Speaker 1: a shame that mug was a fan favorite. Don't sweat

1624
01:41:03,240 --> 01:41:05,720
Speaker 1: the small stuff. Just nailed the big stuff, like making

1625
01:41:05,760 --> 01:41:07,559
Speaker 1: sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right seat

1626
01:41:07,600 --> 01:41:10,639
Speaker 1: for their agent's eyes. Learn more. Nhtsa dot girl slash

1627
01:41:10,640 --> 01:41:13,920
Speaker 1: the right seed. Visit n h s a dot go

1628
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Speaker 1: slash the rain set right to you by Nitta and

1629
01:41:16,960 --> 01:41:21,479
Speaker 1: the head council. Hey, it's de Lieper I'm here to

1630
01:41:21,479 --> 01:41:24,519
Speaker 1: tell you about my brand new podcast, Deleper at your Service.

1631
01:41:26,400 --> 01:41:28,960
Speaker 1: I'll be sitting down with the world's most inspiring minds

1632
01:41:29,000 --> 01:41:31,240
Speaker 1: to uncover what makes them tick, what they've learned from

1633
01:41:31,240 --> 01:41:36,400
Speaker 1: their successes, failures, and the obstacles life has thrown at them.

1634
01:41:36,479 --> 01:41:40,080
Speaker 1: We're going deep with people revolutionizing not just their own industries,

1635
01:41:40,240 --> 01:41:43,479
Speaker 1: but also culture more broadly. From Least Today Oh, the

1636
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Speaker 1: author redefining what it means to tell women's stories, to

1637
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Speaker 1: the fashion industry virtuoso Olivier Roosting. You'll even hear me

1638
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Speaker 1: break bread with some of the most iconic and disseous

1639
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Speaker 1: names in pop culture, like Sir Elton John. After a

1640
01:41:58,960 --> 01:42:01,600
Speaker 1: lot of upsets, a lot of disappointments, a lot of betrayals,

1641
01:42:01,840 --> 01:42:04,479
Speaker 1: It's turned out to be the most wonderful life right

1642
01:42:04,479 --> 01:42:07,040
Speaker 1: now that I've could ever imagined. I can't wait to

1643
01:42:07,040 --> 01:42:09,320
Speaker 1: share all of this and more with you. Listen to

1644
01:42:09,360 --> 01:42:11,559
Speaker 1: do Really But at Your Service on the I Heart

1645
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Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1646
01:42:23,000 --> 01:42:26,439
Speaker 1: What grows in the forest trees, Sure you know what

1647
01:42:26,560 --> 01:42:30,280
Speaker 1: else grows in the forest, our imagination, our sense of wonder,

1648
01:42:30,680 --> 01:42:33,880
Speaker 1: and our family bonds grow too, because when we disconnect

1649
01:42:33,920 --> 01:42:40,559
Speaker 1: from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other.

1650
01:42:41,320 --> 01:42:44,200
Speaker 1: The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest

1651
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Speaker 1: near you and start exploring. I discover the forest dot Org,

1652
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Speaker 1: brought to you by the United States Forest Service and

1653
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Speaker 1: the AD Council. It could happen here, coming to you

1654
01:43:02,720 --> 01:43:08,560
Speaker 1: live from my room in Chicago. But but importantly we

1655
01:43:09,040 --> 01:43:10,800
Speaker 1: were coming to your life, and it could happen here

1656
01:43:10,840 --> 01:43:15,240
Speaker 1: Central where the gamers have seized the pod. It is me, Christopher,

1657
01:43:15,520 --> 01:43:21,960
Speaker 1: it is Garrison. Hello, fellow gamer. Hello, and in the

1658
01:43:22,120 --> 01:43:26,639
Speaker 1: gaming trenches with my razor headset on, looking into my

1659
01:43:27,040 --> 01:43:30,800
Speaker 1: uh the video powered view flinder, and I'm ready to

1660
01:43:30,840 --> 01:43:33,800
Speaker 1: continue on the fight. It's gonna be great. We're talking

1661
01:43:33,840 --> 01:43:37,559
Speaker 1: about talking about gaming, We're talking about the military. We're

1662
01:43:37,560 --> 01:43:40,200
Speaker 1: talking about why the two of them crossing is extremely bad.

1663
01:43:40,680 --> 01:43:44,639
Speaker 1: And UH with us to talk about this are two

1664
01:43:44,640 --> 01:43:49,320
Speaker 1: people who are somewhat less clownish than we are. Um.

1665
01:43:49,360 --> 01:43:51,840
Speaker 1: This is Katie and Chris from Gamers for Peace, which

1666
01:43:51,840 --> 01:43:54,600
Speaker 1: is an initiative of Vesterans for Peace. We welcome to

1667
01:43:54,600 --> 01:43:58,639
Speaker 1: the show. Hello, Hey, thank you. I take a fensive

1668
01:43:58,680 --> 01:44:02,840
Speaker 1: game called less clown I'm just trying to live up

1669
01:44:02,880 --> 01:44:05,920
Speaker 1: to your standard. I'll have you know. I am very

1670
01:44:06,000 --> 01:44:08,960
Speaker 1: very clownish and clumsy and all of those good things,

1671
01:44:08,960 --> 01:44:17,120
Speaker 1: and he trusted me with weapons. Oh God. So I

1672
01:44:17,160 --> 01:44:23,759
Speaker 1: guess starting out, I want to talk about, I guess

1673
01:44:23,880 --> 01:44:27,120
Speaker 1: very generally the history of counter recruitment, because this is

1674
01:44:27,160 --> 01:44:30,040
Speaker 1: something that's been going on in the U. S. Military

1675
01:44:30,400 --> 01:44:33,040
Speaker 1: for I mean, it really is like from from what

1676
01:44:33,080 --> 01:44:34,760
Speaker 1: I could tell, like about as long as there's been,

1677
01:44:34,960 --> 01:44:38,479
Speaker 1: you know, recruitment for the military. But I was wondering

1678
01:44:38,520 --> 01:44:41,840
Speaker 1: if we could start I don't know, maybe maybe maybe

1679
01:44:41,840 --> 01:44:45,240
Speaker 1: around sort of the Vietnam era when you when there's

1680
01:44:45,400 --> 01:44:48,800
Speaker 1: you know, very very serious and intense sort of left

1681
01:44:48,800 --> 01:44:52,200
Speaker 1: wing kind of recruitments, and then we can go from there. Yeah. Yeah.

1682
01:44:52,360 --> 01:44:57,240
Speaker 1: So coming out of Vietnam, you have Vietnam veterans against

1683
01:44:57,240 --> 01:45:02,960
Speaker 1: the war forming UH and there's a massive pushback on uh,

1684
01:45:03,080 --> 01:45:06,240
Speaker 1: the draft. Uh. The anti war movement is pretty much

1685
01:45:06,280 --> 01:45:10,000
Speaker 1: at its strongest, and Vietnam veterans against the war over

1686
01:45:10,040 --> 01:45:14,120
Speaker 1: time becomes a veteran for peace. Veterans for Peace has

1687
01:45:14,120 --> 01:45:16,880
Speaker 1: a long legacy of sitting at the front of the

1688
01:45:16,960 --> 01:45:22,719
Speaker 1: anti war movement peace movement, participating in nuclear abolition work,

1689
01:45:23,160 --> 01:45:27,439
Speaker 1: kind of recruitment work, the escalation work out of Save

1690
01:45:27,520 --> 01:45:31,000
Speaker 1: Our v A, helping veterans get assistance with disability benefits

1691
01:45:31,040 --> 01:45:35,599
Speaker 1: and making sure that the traumas that veterans suffer and

1692
01:45:35,640 --> 01:45:40,240
Speaker 1: the communities of UM impacted by the military suffer are

1693
01:45:40,320 --> 01:45:45,759
Speaker 1: getting treatment for the care UH deported veterans because Vietnam

1694
01:45:45,840 --> 01:45:48,800
Speaker 1: that's served and then got deported, and that continues to

1695
01:45:48,880 --> 01:45:54,919
Speaker 1: this day. So Veterans for Peace at a multi pronged approached,

1696
01:45:55,000 --> 01:46:00,639
Speaker 1: the anti war efforts UH and UH two thousands, around

1697
01:46:00,960 --> 01:46:06,639
Speaker 1: UH two thousand seven, Ish Iraq Afghanistan Iraq Veterans Against

1698
01:46:06,640 --> 01:46:09,240
Speaker 1: the War later known as Iraq Afghanistan Veterans Against the

1699
01:46:09,240 --> 01:46:11,400
Speaker 1: War comes along, and that's a new generation of veterans

1700
01:46:11,640 --> 01:46:15,080
Speaker 1: carrying a long built on the legacy of Veterans for

1701
01:46:15,120 --> 01:46:18,840
Speaker 1: Peace and being non veterans against the war. UM. You know,

1702
01:46:19,080 --> 01:46:22,760
Speaker 1: there's a long history of coffee shops, g I Resistance

1703
01:46:23,080 --> 01:46:29,679
Speaker 1: UM Outreach doing work with veterans, trying constances objective object

1704
01:46:29,760 --> 01:46:33,680
Speaker 1: or work UM GI resisted work in in there, and

1705
01:46:33,720 --> 01:46:37,360
Speaker 1: there's just a long legacy of just veterans sharing their

1706
01:46:37,400 --> 01:46:42,000
Speaker 1: experiences and coming back and really ah wanting to make

1707
01:46:42,000 --> 01:46:44,600
Speaker 1: sure nobody else goes through that and making sure that

1708
01:46:44,640 --> 01:46:48,080
Speaker 1: they get the help they need and kind of slow

1709
01:46:48,200 --> 01:46:50,720
Speaker 1: that that beat of the war drum that seems to

1710
01:46:51,400 --> 01:46:54,679
Speaker 1: media seems to always be picking up. And that's where

1711
01:46:54,720 --> 01:47:00,200
Speaker 1: we came in. That's definitely a good way to put

1712
01:47:00,200 --> 01:47:03,160
Speaker 1: it now. UM, especially born out of the pandemic, a

1713
01:47:03,160 --> 01:47:05,920
Speaker 1: lot of the recruiting had to move online. They didn't

1714
01:47:05,920 --> 01:47:08,120
Speaker 1: really have if they wanted to keep recruiting, they had

1715
01:47:08,160 --> 01:47:10,880
Speaker 1: to go online, and that's where a majority of the

1716
01:47:10,880 --> 01:47:13,519
Speaker 1: newest generation is they are watching Twitch. Twitch had a

1717
01:47:13,600 --> 01:47:18,519
Speaker 1: viewership like pretty much competing with Netflix streaming UM as

1718
01:47:18,520 --> 01:47:20,880
Speaker 1: of this summer, and I'm sure that hasn't really changed much.

1719
01:47:20,880 --> 01:47:23,680
Speaker 1: I'm sure it is just as popular UM and the

1720
01:47:23,720 --> 01:47:26,000
Speaker 1: audience for twitch skews very young. So that's really what

1721
01:47:26,160 --> 01:47:29,280
Speaker 1: started to worry members of Veterans for Peace, like, Okay,

1722
01:47:29,320 --> 01:47:32,760
Speaker 1: we might need to ramp up truth and recruitment UM initiatives,

1723
01:47:32,760 --> 01:47:35,599
Speaker 1: which is what Games for Peace came out of. Because

1724
01:47:35,640 --> 01:47:38,480
Speaker 1: the thing is, if you're forming a paras social relationship

1725
01:47:38,520 --> 01:47:42,200
Speaker 1: with these younger kids by streaming and forming those laserships,

1726
01:47:42,320 --> 01:47:45,120
Speaker 1: getting them on discord and talking to them, you're getting

1727
01:47:45,160 --> 01:47:47,720
Speaker 1: a one sided view of what military services about, and

1728
01:47:47,760 --> 01:47:52,439
Speaker 1: you are definitely not getting the uh imperialist informed viewpoint

1729
01:47:52,560 --> 01:47:55,920
Speaker 1: for sure. Um, so Venomans repeace kind of came out

1730
01:47:55,920 --> 01:48:00,880
Speaker 1: of that. That's like very insidious looking, uh, hidden and

1731
01:48:01,080 --> 01:48:04,360
Speaker 1: subtle way of recruiting using the video games that have

1732
01:48:04,479 --> 01:48:07,200
Speaker 1: already historically been used for recruiting purposes. So it's like

1733
01:48:07,200 --> 01:48:09,679
Speaker 1: a double it's like a double way me. They got

1734
01:48:09,680 --> 01:48:13,040
Speaker 1: on us there for those not inundated in the game

1735
01:48:13,120 --> 01:48:16,800
Speaker 1: or warfare like we are. Um, how let's I think

1736
01:48:16,800 --> 01:48:19,000
Speaker 1: we should briefly describe what twitches because I know a

1737
01:48:19,040 --> 01:48:23,920
Speaker 1: lot of people probably probably isn't actually aware of of Twitch.

1738
01:48:24,680 --> 01:48:27,599
Speaker 1: That's whereas we are down in these trenches finding off

1739
01:48:27,640 --> 01:48:35,120
Speaker 1: the cyber net stoff bad sah um. Yeah, So I

1740
01:48:35,120 --> 01:48:38,320
Speaker 1: guess twitches like a live stream platform that is primarily

1741
01:48:38,400 --> 01:48:42,960
Speaker 1: used for live streaming people playing video games, and people

1742
01:48:43,040 --> 01:48:46,360
Speaker 1: kind of help their own like brands and like personalities

1743
01:48:46,400 --> 01:48:49,479
Speaker 1: and like para social relationships with an audience via them

1744
01:48:49,479 --> 01:48:52,400
Speaker 1: playing these games and kind of adding their commentary, you know,

1745
01:48:52,520 --> 01:48:55,360
Speaker 1: variety of games. You know, sometimes it's like mostly chatting

1746
01:48:55,439 --> 01:48:58,040
Speaker 1: with people like inside like a group chat while playing

1747
01:48:58,040 --> 01:49:00,559
Speaker 1: a game, um or you know, some of more focused

1748
01:49:00,600 --> 01:49:04,240
Speaker 1: on the game itself. It kind of varies, but yeah,

1749
01:49:04,280 --> 01:49:06,720
Speaker 1: it's a it's a it's it's arguably the biggest live

1750
01:49:06,720 --> 01:49:08,920
Speaker 1: streaming platform. I think it was brought by Amazon a

1751
01:49:08,920 --> 01:49:13,080
Speaker 1: few years ago. Um, and yes, there is a there

1752
01:49:13,200 --> 01:49:16,080
Speaker 1: is a US There's a there's a few US like

1753
01:49:16,160 --> 01:49:22,599
Speaker 1: military channels on there that are actually relatively popular. Um.

1754
01:49:22,680 --> 01:49:24,360
Speaker 1: I guess the other thing to kind of get into

1755
01:49:24,439 --> 01:49:27,280
Speaker 1: for some background is, like you mentioned, you already kind

1756
01:49:27,280 --> 01:49:29,960
Speaker 1: of alluded to this, but like the history of the U.

1757
01:49:30,080 --> 01:49:34,880
Speaker 1: S Military using video games for propaganda because they've been

1758
01:49:35,640 --> 01:49:38,920
Speaker 1: they've been one of like the earliest funders of games

1759
01:49:38,960 --> 01:49:42,000
Speaker 1: for this reason. I think getting into that history is

1760
01:49:42,080 --> 01:49:45,280
Speaker 1: like interesting, um and something that some people are definitely

1761
01:49:45,320 --> 01:49:48,160
Speaker 1: aware of, but a lot of times can get overlooked

1762
01:49:48,200 --> 01:49:50,560
Speaker 1: despite you know, Call of Duty being the one of

1763
01:49:50,560 --> 01:49:54,160
Speaker 1: the biggest video game franchises in the world. Yeah. Absolutely,

1764
01:49:54,160 --> 01:49:58,599
Speaker 1: the military and involvement in video game video can design

1765
01:49:59,040 --> 01:50:02,080
Speaker 1: using as recruitment, using it primary Initially, at first it

1766
01:50:02,200 --> 01:50:04,880
Speaker 1: was thought of as a training tool and they started

1767
01:50:04,920 --> 01:50:07,679
Speaker 1: looking at it for training. Um. If you think back

1768
01:50:07,680 --> 01:50:12,040
Speaker 1: to like early nineties Doom, the original Doom had a

1769
01:50:12,160 --> 01:50:16,680
Speaker 1: mod released, Uh, called the Marine mod It was a

1770
01:50:16,720 --> 01:50:20,120
Speaker 1: modification designed for the Marine Corps to use to train

1771
01:50:20,200 --> 01:50:23,080
Speaker 1: marines and as early as the early nineties when Doom

1772
01:50:23,120 --> 01:50:26,880
Speaker 1: was at its height, and then then that grows from there.

1773
01:50:26,920 --> 01:50:30,040
Speaker 1: You have First to Fight. Uh what is it? UH?

1774
01:50:30,320 --> 01:50:33,439
Speaker 1: Game called First to Fight features Marine Corps marines and

1775
01:50:33,520 --> 01:50:37,080
Speaker 1: dress blues where you're tactically uh, fighting a battle in

1776
01:50:37,439 --> 01:50:40,280
Speaker 1: um in which you never want to do. If you

1777
01:50:40,280 --> 01:50:42,200
Speaker 1: know anything about the Marine Corps Blues, you do not

1778
01:50:42,400 --> 01:50:44,719
Speaker 1: want to be doing anything in those that isn't getting

1779
01:50:44,760 --> 01:50:50,000
Speaker 1: drunk exactly. Drunk and dancing and blues is all they're

1780
01:50:50,000 --> 01:50:53,160
Speaker 1: good for. Um. Yeah, so you have you have a

1781
01:50:53,200 --> 01:50:55,479
Speaker 1: First to Fight and then it turns into Call of

1782
01:50:55,560 --> 01:51:00,280
Speaker 1: Duty America's Army, which thankfully just got pulled down all

1783
01:51:00,360 --> 01:51:03,880
Speaker 1: its platform from its platform. That's a huge win. But

1784
01:51:03,960 --> 01:51:06,559
Speaker 1: the Army started design getting into the development of video

1785
01:51:06,560 --> 01:51:11,519
Speaker 1: games for training, uh and then got into it for

1786
01:51:11,680 --> 01:51:14,720
Speaker 1: as recruiting, and America's Army is a perfect highlight of

1787
01:51:14,800 --> 01:51:18,040
Speaker 1: that where they just flat out had recruitment posters and

1788
01:51:18,160 --> 01:51:21,479
Speaker 1: training things uh in there with links to how to

1789
01:51:21,520 --> 01:51:24,559
Speaker 1: get to recruiters or get more information about joining the military.

1790
01:51:24,840 --> 01:51:29,519
Speaker 1: Joining the Army um, you have armor to uh, you

1791
01:51:29,560 --> 01:51:34,440
Speaker 1: could you could argue and draw the line from military

1792
01:51:34,439 --> 01:51:37,840
Speaker 1: training simulators to pub G Underground, which is one of

1793
01:51:37,840 --> 01:51:41,960
Speaker 1: the uh most biggest Battle Royale games, which is where

1794
01:51:42,000 --> 01:51:45,320
Speaker 1: you get Fortnite out of. So you can draw these

1795
01:51:45,360 --> 01:51:49,040
Speaker 1: lines straight from the military's involvement in designing training and

1796
01:51:49,160 --> 01:51:53,559
Speaker 1: recruitment materials to what our kids are playing the most

1797
01:51:53,600 --> 01:51:57,000
Speaker 1: these days. And really one of the most kind of

1798
01:51:57,040 --> 01:52:01,400
Speaker 1: sick factors of this is like how much games have

1799
01:52:01,479 --> 01:52:06,680
Speaker 1: been designed and pushed towards basically training people for um,

1800
01:52:06,840 --> 01:52:09,280
Speaker 1: like uh, I guess we're trying to think of the term,

1801
01:52:09,360 --> 01:52:12,240
Speaker 1: but like combat at a distance in terms of like

1802
01:52:12,320 --> 01:52:15,360
Speaker 1: drawing like drone combat, there's just like they started just

1803
01:52:15,439 --> 01:52:20,240
Speaker 1: using Xbox controllers for some like drone missions. Like like

1804
01:52:20,439 --> 01:52:23,800
Speaker 1: it's like they're specifically looking at the pipeline of specifically

1805
01:52:23,880 --> 01:52:26,240
Speaker 1: young males who get into this type of gaming and

1806
01:52:26,280 --> 01:52:30,160
Speaker 1: trying everything they can to push them into a career

1807
01:52:30,160 --> 01:52:34,040
Speaker 1: where they just kill people in overseas countries using the

1808
01:52:34,080 --> 01:52:38,120
Speaker 1: same technology, using you know, using video game controllers, using

1809
01:52:38,200 --> 01:52:42,080
Speaker 1: like you know, operating systems very similar to what we're

1810
01:52:42,080 --> 01:52:44,320
Speaker 1: being used in video games. And I mean like in

1811
01:52:44,439 --> 01:52:46,840
Speaker 1: video games are a very effective propaganda tool if you're

1812
01:52:46,840 --> 01:52:49,679
Speaker 1: thinking like, okay, I mean I just enjoy playing more games.

1813
01:52:49,720 --> 01:52:51,840
Speaker 1: It's not like, what's what's the big deal? Like sure,

1814
01:52:51,920 --> 01:52:54,760
Speaker 1: like I also enjoy playing war games. Sometimes they can

1815
01:52:54,880 --> 01:52:56,920
Speaker 1: be a fun um, you know, I like this, like

1816
01:52:56,960 --> 01:52:59,400
Speaker 1: tactics based games. But these have been shown to be

1817
01:52:59,479 --> 01:53:01,680
Speaker 1: very effective that recruitment, to the point that video game

1818
01:53:01,680 --> 01:53:04,919
Speaker 1: footage and video games were like one of isis favorite

1819
01:53:05,320 --> 01:53:09,320
Speaker 1: recruitment and propaganda tactics as well, like this is it's

1820
01:53:09,320 --> 01:53:11,680
Speaker 1: a it's a thing, like it's not it's not just

1821
01:53:11,840 --> 01:53:14,639
Speaker 1: like oh, it's fine, Like no, these these things are

1822
01:53:14,680 --> 01:53:18,439
Speaker 1: actually kind of a profit of Yeah. Um, they are

1823
01:53:18,520 --> 01:53:20,719
Speaker 1: very effective in that manner as a recruiting a tool,

1824
01:53:20,760 --> 01:53:25,439
Speaker 1: and there is a real synergy between gaming developers and

1825
01:53:25,680 --> 01:53:29,160
Speaker 1: the d o D because of how effective, uh you know,

1826
01:53:29,240 --> 01:53:32,880
Speaker 1: that recruiting can be, or the recruiting tool can be. Um.

1827
01:53:32,920 --> 01:53:36,559
Speaker 1: Similar to movies, you know, the military entertainment complex is

1828
01:53:36,600 --> 01:53:39,360
Speaker 1: a term thrown around a lot for good reason. You know,

1829
01:53:39,600 --> 01:53:42,679
Speaker 1: you have there is a black box of politics. Whenever

1830
01:53:42,760 --> 01:53:45,960
Speaker 1: you're watching a movie that picks uh yeah, some sort

1831
01:53:46,000 --> 01:53:50,240
Speaker 1: of power structure against whatever the villain is doing. There's there.

1832
01:53:50,280 --> 01:53:53,200
Speaker 1: There's always something there, and video games are not too

1833
01:53:53,240 --> 01:53:55,160
Speaker 1: different from that. You just have a little bit more

1834
01:53:55,280 --> 01:53:57,320
Speaker 1: say and where the story goes, but maybe not even

1835
01:53:57,360 --> 01:54:00,400
Speaker 1: it depends on the development. But um, there's article in

1836
01:54:00,520 --> 01:54:04,000
Speaker 1: in The Atlantic that was it was actually like about

1837
01:54:04,000 --> 01:54:09,320
Speaker 1: a book, um from because Dexter Thomas Warplay, and it's

1838
01:54:09,320 --> 01:54:13,679
Speaker 1: all about video gaming and the relationship with the military.

1839
01:54:13,720 --> 01:54:16,680
Speaker 1: And they said the Pentagon avoids pitiful, expensive efforts to

1840
01:54:16,760 --> 01:54:19,839
Speaker 1: create their own training simulators, and developers get fat government

1841
01:54:19,920 --> 01:54:24,120
Speaker 1: checks so they can help fund these new games, new

1842
01:54:24,200 --> 01:54:27,839
Speaker 1: virtual reality things under the guys of it being a

1843
01:54:27,920 --> 01:54:32,840
Speaker 1: useful training tool for training in like virtual virtual reality environments,

1844
01:54:32,840 --> 01:54:37,360
Speaker 1: which it scares me already. Um. And then game developers

1845
01:54:37,360 --> 01:54:39,000
Speaker 1: are like, great, I can get a government grant, so

1846
01:54:39,040 --> 01:54:41,320
Speaker 1: even if this flops, we still got the money out

1847
01:54:41,320 --> 01:54:44,560
Speaker 1: of it. That's not an uncommon phenomena. Yeah, I mean

1848
01:54:44,680 --> 01:54:47,400
Speaker 1: in terms of like filmmaking, Yeah, like there's been there's

1849
01:54:47,480 --> 01:54:50,960
Speaker 1: rules for like Pentagon contracts with film studios to be

1850
01:54:51,000 --> 01:54:52,680
Speaker 1: like if you want to use you know, u S

1851
01:54:52,720 --> 01:54:55,640
Speaker 1: military equipment or personality, to follow these specific rules to

1852
01:54:55,680 --> 01:54:59,320
Speaker 1: portray the military in this light, um, which often do

1853
01:54:59,400 --> 01:55:01,919
Speaker 1: get followed because people want to use the cool equipment

1854
01:55:01,920 --> 01:55:04,120
Speaker 1: and stuff. You know, I'm still angry that my that

1855
01:55:04,160 --> 01:55:06,960
Speaker 1: my beloved Transformers got cooked by the U. S. Military

1856
01:55:07,000 --> 01:55:11,000
Speaker 1: and all of their films um as a result of

1857
01:55:11,040 --> 01:55:15,720
Speaker 1: films are pretty pretty bad. Um yeah, I'll have you

1858
01:55:15,800 --> 01:55:18,400
Speaker 1: know they are film are you know? I'm sorry, I

1859
01:55:18,440 --> 01:55:21,280
Speaker 1: can't even keep you straight. I hope I as a

1860
01:55:21,280 --> 01:55:25,320
Speaker 1: as someone with many many star scream action figures, I

1861
01:55:25,320 --> 01:55:31,600
Speaker 1: I dream of one day of having good Transformers movies, classic,

1862
01:55:32,040 --> 01:55:35,520
Speaker 1: the you know, the eighties classic, Um, You've Got, You've

1863
01:55:35,560 --> 01:55:38,920
Speaker 1: Got the Touch, um, and the Bumblebee film is okay,

1864
01:55:38,960 --> 01:55:41,040
Speaker 1: but it's even still that one got cooked. That one

1865
01:55:41,080 --> 01:55:45,480
Speaker 1: got cooked by the military pretty pretty severely. Yes, it's

1866
01:55:45,560 --> 01:55:51,240
Speaker 1: it's funny that you mentioned isis using dr gaming. There's

1867
01:55:51,280 --> 01:55:54,560
Speaker 1: just a recent report came out. It's linked to the

1868
01:55:54,680 --> 01:55:56,840
Speaker 1: u N. I believe it's linked to the U N.

1869
01:55:57,040 --> 01:56:00,960
Speaker 1: Council on Counter Terrorism or Office counter Terrorism, uh, talking

1870
01:56:01,080 --> 01:56:05,240
Speaker 1: about violent extremism and gaming the link between video games

1871
01:56:05,240 --> 01:56:07,480
Speaker 1: and violent extremism. And what's really interesting is it's not

1872
01:56:07,520 --> 01:56:10,320
Speaker 1: so much that the video games themselves are the issue.

1873
01:56:10,320 --> 01:56:12,760
Speaker 1: It's the gaming adjacent space. It's it's the para social

1874
01:56:12,800 --> 01:56:18,200
Speaker 1: relationship development. It's the meme and it's the what what

1875
01:56:18,280 --> 01:56:22,200
Speaker 1: we've what we've known in the gaming world for a

1876
01:56:22,200 --> 01:56:25,280
Speaker 1: while as associated with like the behaviors and culture around

1877
01:56:25,280 --> 01:56:29,560
Speaker 1: gamer Gate and things things like that, where we see this, uh,

1878
01:56:29,720 --> 01:56:35,879
Speaker 1: this toxic culture that um is easy to cultivate inside

1879
01:56:35,920 --> 01:56:40,960
Speaker 1: these spaces and and be co opted for morna various things. UM.

1880
01:56:41,040 --> 01:56:45,120
Speaker 1: And that doesn't that's that doesn't mean that the military

1881
01:56:45,160 --> 01:56:48,760
Speaker 1: isn't banking or utilizing these same principles to to get

1882
01:56:48,800 --> 01:56:55,000
Speaker 1: its recruiting messages across. The military is another violent extreme position, right,

1883
01:56:55,120 --> 01:56:58,840
Speaker 1: You're whether it's you're the violent arm of capitalism and

1884
01:56:59,040 --> 01:57:04,360
Speaker 1: the state or or violently like domestic terrorists or something

1885
01:57:04,400 --> 01:57:09,000
Speaker 1: like that, you're still um opting into or your position

1886
01:57:09,040 --> 01:57:14,360
Speaker 1: is still getting mobilized towards potentially doing violence. And these

1887
01:57:14,360 --> 01:57:18,280
Speaker 1: gaming adjacent spaces are make it really easy for recruiters

1888
01:57:18,280 --> 01:57:21,440
Speaker 1: of all sorts to be in there and uh push

1889
01:57:21,520 --> 01:57:24,600
Speaker 1: people to more of that side of things. Yeah. One

1890
01:57:24,600 --> 01:57:26,080
Speaker 1: of the things I remember when I was like a

1891
01:57:26,080 --> 01:57:28,600
Speaker 1: teenager on Twitch was like, so I watched just like

1892
01:57:28,600 --> 01:57:30,040
Speaker 1: a lot of harsh Stone streams, right, and this is

1893
01:57:30,120 --> 01:57:32,320
Speaker 1: like these were you know, like completely main light hard

1894
01:57:32,360 --> 01:57:35,680
Speaker 1: stone streams, and there was there was this artist who

1895
01:57:35,760 --> 01:57:39,560
Speaker 1: everyone called Kebab the German and uh yeah, so it

1896
01:57:39,560 --> 01:57:42,160
Speaker 1: turns out that Cabab the German was a miss. It

1897
01:57:42,200 --> 01:57:45,840
Speaker 1: was like a shortening like abbreviation of his actual name,

1898
01:57:45,840 --> 01:57:49,600
Speaker 1: which was removed Kebab. And this guy's stuff was just

1899
01:57:49,680 --> 01:57:54,120
Speaker 1: being played on like every major like like Twitch, like

1900
01:57:54,160 --> 01:57:56,080
Speaker 1: all the major harshal streaments, which is playing groove of

1901
01:57:56,120 --> 01:57:58,800
Speaker 1: Kebab songs. And it was like and this this was

1902
01:57:58,880 --> 01:58:01,200
Speaker 1: just like what like this just what Twitch was in

1903
01:58:01,320 --> 01:58:07,640
Speaker 1: like and yeah, like there there's so much like the

1904
01:58:07,640 --> 01:58:09,880
Speaker 1: the the extent to which just this sort of like

1905
01:58:10,560 --> 01:58:14,000
Speaker 1: i mean just overtly fascist like melieu would just seep

1906
01:58:14,040 --> 01:58:16,760
Speaker 1: into just like you know, here's a bunch of people

1907
01:58:16,760 --> 01:58:19,480
Speaker 1: playing a card game and like it wasn't it wasn't

1908
01:58:19,520 --> 01:58:21,800
Speaker 1: even like like I mean, some of these streamers were

1909
01:58:21,840 --> 01:58:24,080
Speaker 1: like really reaction like I've seen I've seen t T

1910
01:58:24,200 --> 01:58:28,240
Speaker 1: streamers who like will like watch videos of like cops

1911
01:58:28,240 --> 01:58:31,600
Speaker 1: doing raid like raids on people's houses on stream. Like

1912
01:58:32,040 --> 01:58:34,200
Speaker 1: you know, it's like you have those people who are

1913
01:58:34,200 --> 01:58:35,760
Speaker 1: like really far right, but some of these people were

1914
01:58:35,800 --> 01:58:37,120
Speaker 1: just like I don't know, they're just a lot of

1915
01:58:37,120 --> 01:58:42,160
Speaker 1: them are just regular people. There's regular people themselves extremists. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1916
01:58:42,640 --> 01:58:46,000
Speaker 1: there's just sort of curly Yeah. Well even then, like

1917
01:58:46,000 --> 01:58:47,480
Speaker 1: some of them just like I think with like like

1918
01:58:47,520 --> 01:58:50,040
Speaker 1: with with with with like with the Germans, like they

1919
01:58:50,080 --> 01:58:52,240
Speaker 1: just didn't know, like they just they just like didn't

1920
01:58:52,600 --> 01:58:54,400
Speaker 1: know what was going on, and so they were just

1921
01:58:54,480 --> 01:58:56,480
Speaker 1: you know, spreading all of this stuff and it was

1922
01:58:56,560 --> 01:59:02,280
Speaker 1: like it was horrifying. Yeah. Absolutely, And actually I'm glad

1923
01:59:02,320 --> 01:59:04,920
Speaker 1: you mentioned that because about a year ago, the Army

1924
01:59:05,080 --> 01:59:07,760
Speaker 1: Sports Channel got in trouble because one of the streamers

1925
01:59:07,800 --> 01:59:11,400
Speaker 1: didn't catch on to to there were two user names

1926
01:59:11,440 --> 01:59:14,840
Speaker 1: that were explicitly white supremacists. One of them was um

1927
01:59:15,240 --> 01:59:19,120
Speaker 1: six million was not enough. Yeah uh yeah yeah, real,

1928
01:59:19,280 --> 01:59:21,720
Speaker 1: real gross. And I guess like just in the whole

1929
01:59:22,200 --> 01:59:25,320
Speaker 1: idea of multitasking between playing a game, trying to interact

1930
01:59:25,320 --> 01:59:27,280
Speaker 1: with chat, and trying to make sure you're you're on

1931
01:59:27,360 --> 01:59:30,120
Speaker 1: screen and all of those things, they didn't realize it,

1932
01:59:30,240 --> 01:59:32,560
Speaker 1: or they willfully didn't realize it. I don't know which one,

1933
01:59:32,600 --> 01:59:34,320
Speaker 1: and I'm not going to make a judgment either way,

1934
01:59:34,360 --> 01:59:36,440
Speaker 1: but they did. They had to shut down that stream,

1935
01:59:36,440 --> 01:59:37,800
Speaker 1: and I don't think they streamed for a couple of

1936
01:59:37,800 --> 01:59:40,880
Speaker 1: weeks after that they had to like reassess some some

1937
01:59:40,920 --> 01:59:44,800
Speaker 1: things because they're like, hey, actively, you know, white supremacists

1938
01:59:44,800 --> 01:59:47,320
Speaker 1: people are on your stream, we should probably you should

1939
01:59:47,320 --> 01:59:49,360
Speaker 1: probably do something about that. And I feel like if

1940
01:59:49,400 --> 01:59:52,400
Speaker 1: you're the U. S Military streaming on Twitch, that someone's

1941
01:59:52,520 --> 01:59:55,520
Speaker 1: job should just be to prevent that from happening. Like yeah,

1942
01:59:55,560 --> 01:59:59,160
Speaker 1: but the resources, Yeah, but like they kind of have

1943
01:59:59,240 --> 02:00:01,640
Speaker 1: this problems, thou be because Twitch has a there's a

1944
02:00:01,680 --> 02:00:05,280
Speaker 1: there's a huge just like like core, like a large

1945
02:00:05,400 --> 02:00:09,880
Speaker 1: enough base of Twitch users are just like fascist or

1946
02:00:09,920 --> 02:00:12,840
Speaker 1: like hard right wingers that do things like like there

1947
02:00:12,920 --> 02:00:15,000
Speaker 1: there have been a persistent problem on Twitch for for

1948
02:00:15,680 --> 02:00:19,040
Speaker 1: years now of like these hate raids, like people doing

1949
02:00:19,080 --> 02:00:22,280
Speaker 1: mass raids on like anyone who's not white and anyone

1950
02:00:22,360 --> 02:00:24,880
Speaker 1: who's like not just white dude, and just like hate

1951
02:00:24,960 --> 02:00:27,680
Speaker 1: rating their channels and like spamming the chat with like

1952
02:00:27,920 --> 02:00:32,760
Speaker 1: slurs and stuff like that. And you know when when

1953
02:00:33,080 --> 02:00:36,000
Speaker 1: that's you know, and that that's too large, Like yeah,

1954
02:00:36,000 --> 02:00:39,920
Speaker 1: like those those are the people, like you know that

1955
02:00:39,920 --> 02:00:42,600
Speaker 1: that's a large enough part of Twitch that like even

1956
02:00:42,680 --> 02:00:45,480
Speaker 1: even even if you're like taking the most charitable thing,

1957
02:00:45,560 --> 02:00:47,600
Speaker 1: which is that the US, like the Army, is not

1958
02:00:47,680 --> 02:00:50,880
Speaker 1: overtly recruiting white supremacists, which like okay, but like even

1959
02:00:50,920 --> 02:00:52,560
Speaker 1: even if you give them the benefit of the doubt,

1960
02:00:52,720 --> 02:00:54,600
Speaker 1: right like that, that's a large enough part of just

1961
02:00:54,960 --> 02:00:58,080
Speaker 1: what twitch is that they haven't incentive in front of

1962
02:00:58,080 --> 02:01:02,320
Speaker 1: blind eye and and radically zation, specifically right wing and

1963
02:01:02,360 --> 02:01:05,400
Speaker 1: white nationalist radicalization in the military is well studied and

1964
02:01:05,440 --> 02:01:08,560
Speaker 1: well established as an existing phenomena. I knew someone personally

1965
02:01:08,600 --> 02:01:13,760
Speaker 1: who uh got caught trying to smuggle weapons for a

1966
02:01:13,800 --> 02:01:18,120
Speaker 1: New Nazi group, and that's all I'll say on that. Yeah, yeah, no,

1967
02:01:18,240 --> 02:01:20,040
Speaker 1: it is a thing, and it hits really close. It

1968
02:01:20,120 --> 02:01:22,880
Speaker 1: is definitely a phenomena that happens in the military, and um,

1969
02:01:23,000 --> 02:01:26,720
Speaker 1: these paramilitary New Nazi groups actively recruit from people coming

1970
02:01:26,760 --> 02:01:28,800
Speaker 1: out in the military because they have the training set

1971
02:01:28,840 --> 02:01:32,960
Speaker 1: they want. And I mean, I trying to figure out

1972
02:01:33,000 --> 02:01:34,800
Speaker 1: a way to tie this back to recruiting online, but

1973
02:01:34,840 --> 02:01:36,640
Speaker 1: it's like, with all of this in mind, it is

1974
02:01:36,760 --> 02:01:40,680
Speaker 1: very insidious that the target is explicitly young kids. And

1975
02:01:40,880 --> 02:01:42,760
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that just to be like, oh, you know,

1976
02:01:42,800 --> 02:01:44,440
Speaker 1: because we've got a lot of we've gotten pushed back

1977
02:01:44,440 --> 02:01:46,960
Speaker 1: with saying, well, the military doesn't recruit kids. They you

1978
02:01:46,960 --> 02:01:53,000
Speaker 1: can only sign up from their seventeen as a kid.

1979
02:01:50,480 --> 02:01:56,360
Speaker 1: That least, all that is a kid. Second of all,

1980
02:01:57,640 --> 02:02:01,320
Speaker 1: it's like the thing it's it's it's just like grooming children.

1981
02:02:01,320 --> 02:02:05,320
Speaker 1: That's that's what it is. Like, it's the same process

1982
02:02:05,400 --> 02:02:07,920
Speaker 1: of grooming. That's that's what's going on. Yeah, one of

1983
02:02:07,960 --> 02:02:09,920
Speaker 1: one of my best friends growing up, like because it

1984
02:02:10,040 --> 02:02:12,240
Speaker 1: was my best friend for like a decade, Like I

1985
02:02:12,240 --> 02:02:13,880
Speaker 1: met him in first grade. He was my friend for

1986
02:02:13,880 --> 02:02:16,760
Speaker 1: the entirety of school and then he got like because

1987
02:02:16,840 --> 02:02:19,600
Speaker 1: his parents sent him away to like uh one of

1988
02:02:19,600 --> 02:02:23,240
Speaker 1: one of those like uh like summer like like military

1989
02:02:23,240 --> 02:02:26,920
Speaker 1: school camp, and he was just never the same afterwards,

1990
02:02:26,960 --> 02:02:30,800
Speaker 1: and he's like a fascist now. And yeah, that's sucks.

1991
02:02:31,520 --> 02:02:34,840
Speaker 1: Yeah that does suck. That. There's not a better word

1992
02:02:34,880 --> 02:02:37,920
Speaker 1: for that. That that sucks because yeah, they can't sign

1993
02:02:38,000 --> 02:02:40,160
Speaker 1: up until they're seventeen, But that's not the point. Isn't

1994
02:02:40,280 --> 02:02:43,880
Speaker 1: convince seventeen year olds the points the points to ingrain

1995
02:02:43,960 --> 02:02:46,600
Speaker 1: this idea in them when they're like sucking twelve years

1996
02:02:46,600 --> 02:02:49,360
Speaker 1: old on the internet, And that is just what grooming is,

1997
02:02:49,480 --> 02:02:51,760
Speaker 1: right starting it when you're when they're young, so when

1998
02:02:51,760 --> 02:02:53,440
Speaker 1: they're old enough, they will be able to sign up

1999
02:02:53,440 --> 02:02:56,200
Speaker 1: for the thing. Like that's that's what the process is,

2000
02:02:56,560 --> 02:02:59,320
Speaker 1: and that's what like, you know, military propaganda equipment's been

2001
02:02:59,360 --> 02:03:01,200
Speaker 1: doing for a long time, but the specifically the way

2002
02:03:01,240 --> 02:03:04,320
Speaker 1: it's being done on the internet around gaming is actual insidious.

2003
02:03:04,800 --> 02:03:07,120
Speaker 1: It was literally it is explicitly said by one of

2004
02:03:07,320 --> 02:03:11,080
Speaker 1: um A recruiting officer, Dr. E. Case Wardinsky, And I

2005
02:03:11,080 --> 02:03:13,680
Speaker 1: apologize if I'm pronouncing that wrong, But then he literally

2006
02:03:13,800 --> 02:03:15,840
Speaker 1: said we have to confront this question. I will you

2007
02:03:15,920 --> 02:03:18,160
Speaker 1: wait until they're seventeen or will we start talking to

2008
02:03:18,200 --> 02:03:22,120
Speaker 1: them at age twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen when they form

2009
02:03:22,200 --> 02:03:23,680
Speaker 1: the set of things they were thinking about doing with

2010
02:03:23,720 --> 02:03:26,760
Speaker 1: their life, because we're literally saying we want to groom children.

2011
02:03:26,920 --> 02:03:29,360
Speaker 1: Is like, yeah, so I think now would be the

2012
02:03:29,400 --> 02:03:32,840
Speaker 1: time to kind of get into the countering side of things.

2013
02:03:33,000 --> 02:03:34,840
Speaker 1: Is like, yes, this is a this is a big problem,

2014
02:03:34,840 --> 02:03:37,920
Speaker 1: as we've laid out the past twenty minutes of what

2015
02:03:37,960 --> 02:03:41,840
Speaker 1: can we do about it? Yeah, so what can we

2016
02:03:41,880 --> 02:03:46,080
Speaker 1: do about it? There's um a good deal that we

2017
02:03:46,160 --> 02:03:51,480
Speaker 1: can do about it? Right, um, we we veterans for peace,

2018
02:03:51,600 --> 02:03:55,800
Speaker 1: the truth and recruitment. UH working group came up with

2019
02:03:55,840 --> 02:03:59,760
Speaker 1: an idea for the Gamage for Peace initiative, concerned veterans

2020
02:03:59,840 --> 02:04:03,880
Speaker 1: in gamers and UH and allies because Veterans for Piece

2021
02:04:03,960 --> 02:04:07,280
Speaker 1: isn't just comprised the veterans themselves, it's also allies and accomplices.

2022
02:04:07,920 --> 02:04:11,839
Speaker 1: UM came together and started forming the an online community

2023
02:04:11,880 --> 02:04:16,280
Speaker 1: of our own UM where we have kind of adopted

2024
02:04:16,480 --> 02:04:19,120
Speaker 1: some four channels. Have changed this concept of four channels

2025
02:04:19,120 --> 02:04:24,360
Speaker 1: to change. One do education talking about UH, sharing our

2026
02:04:24,400 --> 02:04:31,080
Speaker 1: experiences as veterans, talking about and unpacking recruitment tactics and techniques. UH.

2027
02:04:31,360 --> 02:04:35,000
Speaker 1: Start talking being extremely vocal and raise awareness around the

2028
02:04:35,000 --> 02:04:39,160
Speaker 1: recruitment techniques that we we've already been talking about, right. UH. Second,

2029
02:04:39,520 --> 02:04:43,080
Speaker 1: we're doing some mentorship and leadership stuff, starting to develop

2030
02:04:43,120 --> 02:04:47,560
Speaker 1: programs in local communities that offer alternatives to the economic draft. Right,

2031
02:04:47,800 --> 02:04:50,880
Speaker 1: like just throwing it back to where we started talking

2032
02:04:50,880 --> 02:04:53,160
Speaker 1: about coming out of Vietnam. It was already said that

2033
02:04:53,200 --> 02:04:56,000
Speaker 1: sergeant hard Times is the best recruiter and it posts

2034
02:04:56,040 --> 02:04:58,680
Speaker 1: posts the drafts we went when we went to an

2035
02:04:58,680 --> 02:05:01,600
Speaker 1: all volunteer force, you have to have a reason to join,

2036
02:05:01,840 --> 02:05:04,800
Speaker 1: and there's a thing called the economic draft. And it's

2037
02:05:04,840 --> 02:05:07,880
Speaker 1: the impoverished conditions that many kids and people face that

2038
02:05:08,040 --> 02:05:10,520
Speaker 1: forced them to go into the military. Right, you don't

2039
02:05:10,560 --> 02:05:13,080
Speaker 1: have healthcare coming out of high school, you're in an

2040
02:05:13,080 --> 02:05:15,880
Speaker 1: abusive home, you're not talking to a guidance counselor no

2041
02:05:16,000 --> 02:05:17,600
Speaker 1: college is coming to you don't know how to pay

2042
02:05:17,640 --> 02:05:19,760
Speaker 1: for college, you don't know where what you're going to

2043
02:05:19,840 --> 02:05:22,120
Speaker 1: do because you're eighteen and on your own. And that's

2044
02:05:22,120 --> 02:05:25,120
Speaker 1: what we keep telling kids. So you have the economic Draft,

2045
02:05:25,520 --> 02:05:28,440
Speaker 1: which encourage gives an opportunity for recruiters to go, hey,

2046
02:05:28,480 --> 02:05:32,440
Speaker 1: this this program will solve everything. And what what people

2047
02:05:32,480 --> 02:05:34,520
Speaker 1: don't realize is what's being asked is are you willing

2048
02:05:34,560 --> 02:05:36,720
Speaker 1: to kill for a camaro? Are you willing to kill

2049
02:05:36,800 --> 02:05:38,200
Speaker 1: just to have a roof of your head? Are you

2050
02:05:38,280 --> 02:05:41,320
Speaker 1: willing to kill for medicare? Right? So we're starting to

2051
02:05:41,800 --> 02:05:46,120
Speaker 1: focus on developing mentorship and leadership programs um include helping

2052
02:05:46,200 --> 02:05:49,440
Speaker 1: kids and young adults get into college or find mutual

2053
02:05:49,480 --> 02:05:52,360
Speaker 1: aid programs and within their communities, start doing stuff locally

2054
02:05:52,400 --> 02:05:55,879
Speaker 1: because this is the problem is pervasive. Right, Not everybody

2055
02:05:56,000 --> 02:05:58,000
Speaker 1: needs to escape abuse of home and it is fine

2056
02:05:58,080 --> 02:06:00,760
Speaker 1: staying in their community, but doesn't know how to survive

2057
02:06:00,800 --> 02:06:02,840
Speaker 1: within the community because they don't have the resources there.

2058
02:06:03,160 --> 02:06:05,160
Speaker 1: And we also look at the what's going on in

2059
02:06:05,160 --> 02:06:08,160
Speaker 1: the world today and and recognize that things must be

2060
02:06:08,200 --> 02:06:11,080
Speaker 1: done at a local level. Um and you can be

2061
02:06:11,600 --> 02:06:13,720
Speaker 1: part of leading that change right in teresting some of

2062
02:06:13,720 --> 02:06:18,440
Speaker 1: the our world concerns. We ourselves do direct actions. We

2063
02:06:18,520 --> 02:06:21,280
Speaker 1: go to a gaming conventions, speak out, try to actually

2064
02:06:21,320 --> 02:06:25,320
Speaker 1: do counter recruitment right where the recruiters are. We just

2065
02:06:25,480 --> 02:06:27,480
Speaker 1: it's really pervasive. If you if you if you go

2066
02:06:27,480 --> 02:06:29,280
Speaker 1: to any kind of con or any kind of can

2067
02:06:29,520 --> 02:06:32,120
Speaker 1: any kind of like game fest or whatever, um, you know,

2068
02:06:32,240 --> 02:06:36,240
Speaker 1: co comic cons, there will always be multiple military recruitment

2069
02:06:36,280 --> 02:06:41,440
Speaker 1: booths there, like like Navy, Marines, Army nationally are like

2070
02:06:41,480 --> 02:06:44,240
Speaker 1: all of them that they will all all be there.

2071
02:06:44,280 --> 02:06:47,800
Speaker 1: And it's not not my favorite thing to see. No, no,

2072
02:06:48,000 --> 02:06:52,160
Speaker 1: And now it's frustrating. Yeah, board games aren't even safe, right.

2073
02:06:52,400 --> 02:06:55,840
Speaker 1: The Army E Sports team has a forty K team,

2074
02:06:55,880 --> 02:06:59,320
Speaker 1: So if you play Warhammer forty K, they have nationally

2075
02:06:59,440 --> 02:07:03,919
Speaker 1: or international ranked forty K team playing in the major circuits.

2076
02:07:04,560 --> 02:07:07,280
Speaker 1: You know what's most insulting about that? Sorry Chris, but

2077
02:07:07,400 --> 02:07:09,960
Speaker 1: it's most insulting about that and I know this because

2078
02:07:10,160 --> 02:07:12,120
Speaker 1: one of the streams that we do I hosted, is

2079
02:07:12,120 --> 02:07:15,320
Speaker 1: called ad Slam because we started out as like roasting

2080
02:07:15,320 --> 02:07:17,560
Speaker 1: military recruitment ads, but it kind of morphed into just

2081
02:07:17,680 --> 02:07:21,280
Speaker 1: like general veteran and military depictions and media. And one

2082
02:07:21,280 --> 02:07:24,280
Speaker 1: of them was on the or at least referenced the

2083
02:07:24,400 --> 02:07:28,360
Speaker 1: Army E Sports warhammerport K team. And you know how

2084
02:07:28,400 --> 02:07:31,480
Speaker 1: people will like take their figurines really seriously, they paint them.

2085
02:07:31,520 --> 02:07:33,840
Speaker 1: They look really cool. The Army like spray painted them

2086
02:07:33,880 --> 02:07:35,800
Speaker 1: gold and it's called the Day And I'm like, really,

2087
02:07:35,840 --> 02:07:38,160
Speaker 1: you have all of these resources, you are using the

2088
02:07:38,200 --> 02:07:41,680
Speaker 1: recruiting budget, which is ridiculous and astronomical, and you spray

2089
02:07:41,680 --> 02:07:44,040
Speaker 1: painted them gold? Are you kidding me? Come on? And

2090
02:07:44,080 --> 02:07:46,320
Speaker 1: it's just an insulting that it was so low effort,

2091
02:07:46,360 --> 02:07:49,120
Speaker 1: but they still get the praise. Um a lot of

2092
02:07:49,120 --> 02:07:52,720
Speaker 1: people report like having positive viewpoints of the military after

2093
02:07:52,840 --> 02:07:56,680
Speaker 1: interacting with members of you know, the Eastward Team or

2094
02:07:56,720 --> 02:08:00,200
Speaker 1: the Booth or whatever. So I'm I'm genuinely annoyed that

2095
02:08:00,320 --> 02:08:02,320
Speaker 1: is also low effort on that matter, and they're still

2096
02:08:02,320 --> 02:08:06,120
Speaker 1: getting a positive response and bothers me, that's a perfect

2097
02:08:06,200 --> 02:08:11,120
Speaker 1: highlight because being there on like hate using military terms nowadays,

2098
02:08:11,120 --> 02:08:14,000
Speaker 1: but being their boots on ground, you know, uh at

2099
02:08:14,200 --> 02:08:19,920
Speaker 1: at these conventions, uh, doing providing truth and recruitment, right,

2100
02:08:20,280 --> 02:08:23,800
Speaker 1: talking about alternatives, Uh really just being there in front

2101
02:08:23,840 --> 02:08:28,280
Speaker 1: of recruiters and and talking to the people that they're

2102
02:08:28,320 --> 02:08:31,600
Speaker 1: targeting and family members, letting them know, like, hey, we

2103
02:08:31,760 --> 02:08:36,040
Speaker 1: as veterans, right, don't let this be what shapes your

2104
02:08:36,080 --> 02:08:41,520
Speaker 1: child's future or your future. Right. There's other opportunities for you. Um.

2105
02:08:41,640 --> 02:08:44,640
Speaker 1: And and you know, whether that's if you're into gaming,

2106
02:08:45,000 --> 02:08:48,640
Speaker 1: start designing games, right, Like, there's there's so many opportunities

2107
02:08:48,640 --> 02:08:50,640
Speaker 1: within the gaming community that doesn't want to put you

2108
02:08:50,680 --> 02:08:53,280
Speaker 1: into the military pipeline also, right, So it's not the

2109
02:08:53,280 --> 02:08:57,080
Speaker 1: game's fault. It's not like it's it's a tool that

2110
02:08:57,200 --> 02:09:00,720
Speaker 1: the state's using right now, right. Um. And then we're

2111
02:09:00,720 --> 02:09:03,560
Speaker 1: trying to form some our Army sports teams also, right,

2112
02:09:03,600 --> 02:09:06,280
Speaker 1: so we can compete directly against them, kick their ass

2113
02:09:06,320 --> 02:09:09,200
Speaker 1: in some of the tournaments that they host. Um. You know,

2114
02:09:09,400 --> 02:09:11,440
Speaker 1: my my dream is to see some gamers for Peace

2115
02:09:11,520 --> 02:09:15,760
Speaker 1: jerseys getting awarded like some trophy next to the Army

2116
02:09:15,920 --> 02:09:19,000
Speaker 1: sports team and just dunking on them. So across all

2117
02:09:19,000 --> 02:09:21,320
Speaker 1: the but if we lose, if we're up there, we

2118
02:09:21,360 --> 02:09:22,960
Speaker 1: still get to dunk on them. See we had so

2119
02:09:23,040 --> 02:09:24,720
Speaker 1: much more fun. We don't have to go clean up

2120
02:09:24,720 --> 02:09:28,080
Speaker 1: barracks room after this. Like the ultimate goal being us

2121
02:09:28,080 --> 02:09:31,600
Speaker 1: being able to provide tangible alternatives. So a kid coming

2122
02:09:31,640 --> 02:09:33,840
Speaker 1: out of high school thinking like, well, I either go

2123
02:09:33,880 --> 02:09:35,560
Speaker 1: into a lot of debt to go to college or

2124
02:09:35,560 --> 02:09:38,560
Speaker 1: I joined the military. If we can get um not

2125
02:09:38,680 --> 02:09:40,560
Speaker 1: a hold of them, that seems predatory, but if we

2126
02:09:40,600 --> 02:09:44,440
Speaker 1: can talk to them or our organization can provide that

2127
02:09:44,480 --> 02:09:46,640
Speaker 1: alternative and say, oh, well, you don't really have to

2128
02:09:46,640 --> 02:09:48,520
Speaker 1: do that. We have a scholarship program that we can

2129
02:09:48,560 --> 02:09:51,520
Speaker 1: offer you, or we can provide a lite, at the

2130
02:09:51,640 --> 02:09:54,080
Speaker 1: very least education about what they're really getting into so

2131
02:09:54,120 --> 02:09:56,920
Speaker 1: they can make a better informed decision. Because the main

2132
02:09:56,960 --> 02:09:58,760
Speaker 1: problem that I have with the way that recruiting works

2133
02:09:58,760 --> 02:10:01,480
Speaker 1: is that you are not gettinging a view of what

2134
02:10:01,520 --> 02:10:03,120
Speaker 1: life would actually be like. You are not getting a

2135
02:10:03,200 --> 02:10:05,760
Speaker 1: view of what you're fighting for. That there's a whole

2136
02:10:05,760 --> 02:10:07,840
Speaker 1: lot of like these vague concepts that they tell you

2137
02:10:07,880 --> 02:10:10,360
Speaker 1: that you're fighting for and then you're supposed to feel

2138
02:10:10,760 --> 02:10:14,839
Speaker 1: great about doing, but none of those are real in practice.

2139
02:10:14,920 --> 02:10:17,320
Speaker 1: Liberty or protecting the homeland. None of that is what

2140
02:10:17,360 --> 02:10:21,200
Speaker 1: you're doing. You're helping Northrop Grumman create a profit, right

2141
02:10:21,280 --> 02:10:24,560
Speaker 1: like there's UH, and so at least, at the very

2142
02:10:24,640 --> 02:10:27,280
Speaker 1: least someone who thinks that they have no other options,

2143
02:10:27,360 --> 02:10:30,560
Speaker 1: and in this country that might not be too far off. Right.

2144
02:10:30,920 --> 02:10:33,280
Speaker 1: We don't have a universal health care system. That was

2145
02:10:33,320 --> 02:10:35,080
Speaker 1: part of the reason why I joined the Marine Corps

2146
02:10:35,200 --> 02:10:37,280
Speaker 1: that I knew I would get health care, and I

2147
02:10:37,360 --> 02:10:39,080
Speaker 1: knew I would get money to go to college and

2148
02:10:39,120 --> 02:10:40,840
Speaker 1: not be in this loan debt that I was in.

2149
02:10:41,680 --> 02:10:45,000
Speaker 1: So I'm definitely not alone in that. And UM, if

2150
02:10:45,040 --> 02:10:48,000
Speaker 1: maybe we can even just provide a more holistic view

2151
02:10:48,640 --> 02:10:52,480
Speaker 1: of what decision that you're making, that would be considered

2152
02:10:52,480 --> 02:10:56,080
Speaker 1: a win to us. So that was my soapbox. One

2153
02:10:56,080 --> 02:11:00,760
Speaker 1: of the important things is trying to push back on

2154
02:11:01,120 --> 02:11:05,080
Speaker 1: the motion nefarious things that we're seeing, right, whether that's

2155
02:11:05,240 --> 02:11:09,920
Speaker 1: games that are becoming way to train training simulator. UH.

2156
02:11:10,000 --> 02:11:12,200
Speaker 1: There's another campaign that Games for Peace worked on and

2157
02:11:12,240 --> 02:11:16,680
Speaker 1: Veterans Peace worked on the platform Six Days with Care.

2158
02:11:16,960 --> 02:11:21,920
Speaker 1: The Council on American and Islamic Relations UH pushing back

2159
02:11:21,920 --> 02:11:24,480
Speaker 1: on again called six Days in Flutia, which was delayed

2160
02:11:24,480 --> 02:11:28,120
Speaker 1: to quarter four two of this year. So we got

2161
02:11:28,120 --> 02:11:30,440
Speaker 1: it was pushed by a year, whether through our efforts

2162
02:11:30,520 --> 02:11:33,520
Speaker 1: or for whatever reason, but it was pushed by a year. Um.

2163
02:11:33,560 --> 02:11:38,200
Speaker 1: And this game is dubbed a murder simulator, uh because

2164
02:11:38,280 --> 02:11:42,360
Speaker 1: it is. We look at other games like Escape from

2165
02:11:42,360 --> 02:11:47,280
Speaker 1: Tarkov As as teaching fundamental skills through tried and true

2166
02:11:47,320 --> 02:11:52,520
Speaker 1: teaching methodologies for military skills. Um. You know, we were

2167
02:11:52,560 --> 02:11:56,880
Speaker 1: talking about counter recruitment and truth and recruitment to give

2168
02:11:57,160 --> 02:12:01,160
Speaker 1: people an opportunity to make informed, have an informed decision

2169
02:12:01,240 --> 02:12:03,960
Speaker 1: about their participation in the war machine. But also we're

2170
02:12:03,960 --> 02:12:06,680
Speaker 1: trying to push back directly on the war machine and

2171
02:12:06,680 --> 02:12:10,920
Speaker 1: and say hey, there's better uses of our money for

2172
02:12:10,920 --> 02:12:13,800
Speaker 1: for as as a government to take care of our people.

2173
02:12:13,840 --> 02:12:16,960
Speaker 1: There's a lot of fundamental things. There's the contributions to

2174
02:12:17,000 --> 02:12:20,040
Speaker 1: the climate crisis. Is the military is the number one

2175
02:12:20,440 --> 02:12:24,280
Speaker 1: impact uh impact or of the on the climate. Uh.

2176
02:12:24,520 --> 02:12:29,600
Speaker 1: War is never green. You can't green watch the military. Um.

2177
02:12:29,720 --> 02:12:34,720
Speaker 1: The you know, we have just so much going on

2178
02:12:34,880 --> 02:12:37,400
Speaker 1: around all the ways that people don't realize that military

2179
02:12:37,480 --> 02:12:40,280
Speaker 1: is involved. We have the future of German warfare, kill,

2180
02:12:40,360 --> 02:12:45,240
Speaker 1: cloud technology, gaming technology, and the military and militarism is

2181
02:12:45,280 --> 02:12:48,000
Speaker 1: so tightly wound right now that just pushing back and

2182
02:12:48,040 --> 02:12:51,440
Speaker 1: trying to parse those two things apart is one of

2183
02:12:51,480 --> 02:12:54,240
Speaker 1: the things that is most effective for counter recruitment and

2184
02:12:54,280 --> 02:12:57,640
Speaker 1: also for mobilizing people to be like, hey, we actually

2185
02:12:57,680 --> 02:13:01,400
Speaker 1: deserve better, like get out of my gaming space and

2186
02:13:01,800 --> 02:13:05,280
Speaker 1: like get me some food, sovereignty, get me, get me like,

2187
02:13:05,560 --> 02:13:09,920
Speaker 1: let's let me be part of my community. Get out

2188
02:13:09,920 --> 02:13:13,120
Speaker 1: of the gaming space and stop using what is fun

2189
02:13:13,680 --> 02:13:20,879
Speaker 1: and has actual educational value, mental health benefits, physical health benefits,

2190
02:13:20,880 --> 02:13:24,800
Speaker 1: communal impact, social impact like this, this gaming tool, this

2191
02:13:24,880 --> 02:13:28,880
Speaker 1: gaming technology we have can be used for so much good. Uh,

2192
02:13:28,920 --> 02:13:31,160
Speaker 1: but we need to disentangle the military's usage from it

2193
02:13:31,240 --> 02:13:35,800
Speaker 1: and and stop framing our our time, our time enjoy

2194
02:13:36,120 --> 02:13:39,400
Speaker 1: that we enjoy with our friends and family through this

2195
02:13:39,520 --> 02:13:42,960
Speaker 1: lens at the military forces to view it through. Because

2196
02:13:43,000 --> 02:13:45,000
Speaker 1: there are so many great games out there, like like

2197
02:13:45,040 --> 02:13:47,280
Speaker 1: we are in one of like right now, we have

2198
02:13:47,320 --> 02:13:50,040
Speaker 1: the most amount of games ever released, most amount of

2199
02:13:50,040 --> 02:13:53,720
Speaker 1: good games like always being announced and released all the time.

2200
02:13:54,160 --> 02:13:57,000
Speaker 1: There's so many great stuff to play, and yeah, there's

2201
02:13:57,400 --> 02:13:59,600
Speaker 1: anything that can be done to push people away from

2202
02:13:59,640 --> 02:14:03,200
Speaker 1: stuff that kind of promotes this. You know, Colonial Imperial's

2203
02:14:03,320 --> 02:14:07,040
Speaker 1: kind of mindset, UM is great, right, Like, that's why

2204
02:14:07,040 --> 02:14:09,920
Speaker 1: I kind of appreciate the cartoony aspects of Fortnite, even

2205
02:14:09,920 --> 02:14:13,280
Speaker 1: though I hate playing Fortnite and will never really do, so,

2206
02:14:13,840 --> 02:14:16,480
Speaker 1: I still appreciate it as opposed to like the heavily

2207
02:14:16,560 --> 02:14:19,880
Speaker 1: militaristic kind of aesthetics that other you know, similar Battle

2208
02:14:19,960 --> 02:14:24,000
Speaker 1: Royals show, UM. Because I mean, because with with with

2209
02:14:24,160 --> 02:14:26,880
Speaker 1: as many games out there as there is, Yeah, I

2210
02:14:26,920 --> 02:14:30,880
Speaker 1: think any kind of attempts to push people away from

2211
02:14:31,080 --> 02:14:34,640
Speaker 1: the more problematic aspects of you know, specifically shooting games,

2212
02:14:35,120 --> 02:14:38,920
Speaker 1: uh is great. Yeah. And just noting that when you're

2213
02:14:38,920 --> 02:14:42,960
Speaker 1: playing these games, especially if they are relatively close to reality, UM,

2214
02:14:43,160 --> 02:14:47,560
Speaker 1: understand the impact that you can have by pointing out

2215
02:14:47,920 --> 02:14:52,480
Speaker 1: simply that your friend doesn't respawn in real life. Right.

2216
02:14:52,920 --> 02:14:55,760
Speaker 1: And also keep in mind if you are playing a

2217
02:14:55,760 --> 02:14:58,240
Speaker 1: game that that is close to a recent reality, that

2218
02:14:58,280 --> 02:15:01,320
Speaker 1: you could be playing through someone's act trauma. So I'm

2219
02:15:01,360 --> 02:15:03,280
Speaker 1: not telling you not to play the games if they are.

2220
02:15:03,680 --> 02:15:05,800
Speaker 1: We've gone over a couple of like Squad uh and

2221
02:15:05,800 --> 02:15:08,880
Speaker 1: and others that are like very very realistic um in

2222
02:15:09,160 --> 02:15:12,480
Speaker 1: their application, Just keep in mind when you're playing it,

2223
02:15:12,560 --> 02:15:16,040
Speaker 1: that maybe look at it through that lens, like would

2224
02:15:16,080 --> 02:15:18,000
Speaker 1: how would you feel if you were playing through a

2225
02:15:18,040 --> 02:15:21,280
Speaker 1: game but it was the exact moment of your trauma.

2226
02:15:21,280 --> 02:15:23,200
Speaker 1: And I'm not even saying from the military side, I

2227
02:15:23,240 --> 02:15:26,520
Speaker 1: mean from from the people who were being bombed side,

2228
02:15:26,920 --> 02:15:30,640
Speaker 1: you know. So just just want to have more people

2229
02:15:30,760 --> 02:15:33,480
Speaker 1: be more mindful with what they consume and how. And

2230
02:15:33,520 --> 02:15:35,600
Speaker 1: again I'm not telling you not to consume it, just

2231
02:15:35,600 --> 02:15:37,480
Speaker 1: telling you to to think a little bit about it

2232
02:15:37,520 --> 02:15:41,520
Speaker 1: and what that type of media can do while having

2233
02:15:41,560 --> 02:15:46,839
Speaker 1: that baggage onto it. And there is a place for

2234
02:15:47,840 --> 02:15:51,600
Speaker 1: that's in the military experience in gaming. Right Like when

2235
02:15:51,600 --> 02:15:53,400
Speaker 1: I was in when I was just deployed to Iraq,

2236
02:15:53,480 --> 02:15:55,080
Speaker 1: I took an Xbox three six year over there with

2237
02:15:55,120 --> 02:15:57,680
Speaker 1: me in akin to bottom my sea bag and we

2238
02:15:57,720 --> 02:16:01,200
Speaker 1: had on campfulution. We had a local area network of

2239
02:16:01,360 --> 02:16:03,240
Speaker 1: Xboxes in all the cans. When we sat there and

2240
02:16:03,240 --> 02:16:05,440
Speaker 1: played Halo and and Gears of War and when that

2241
02:16:05,520 --> 02:16:08,800
Speaker 1: dropped walls there, right, Like, that's how we stay in

2242
02:16:08,800 --> 02:16:12,400
Speaker 1: touch with each other. It's how we process like auditory

2243
02:16:12,520 --> 02:16:15,960
Speaker 1: things and and and our combat experiences. Right That's that's

2244
02:16:16,040 --> 02:16:19,880
Speaker 1: valid sublimation and processing of of our traumatic experience as

2245
02:16:19,880 --> 02:16:22,400
Speaker 1: a thing, and games have that, and that's not a

2246
02:16:22,440 --> 02:16:27,320
Speaker 1: military exclusive thing or veteran exclusive thing. That's for all communities. Um.

2247
02:16:27,360 --> 02:16:28,920
Speaker 1: But what we have to do is add context and

2248
02:16:29,000 --> 02:16:33,400
Speaker 1: nuance to when we're playing these games and go, oh, um,

2249
02:16:33,440 --> 02:16:36,440
Speaker 1: there's another side to this story. That's the local civilian

2250
02:16:36,480 --> 02:16:41,040
Speaker 1: that just had a bomb cave in ceiling. Right. Uh,

2251
02:16:41,080 --> 02:16:46,080
Speaker 1: there's there's these these instances where we've removed that because

2252
02:16:46,080 --> 02:16:48,160
Speaker 1: we're so focused on the competitive nature instead of the

2253
02:16:48,160 --> 02:16:50,720
Speaker 1: storytelling in the full scope of what that game is

2254
02:16:51,160 --> 02:16:55,240
Speaker 1: allowing us to process. Um. And that's why I don't like,

2255
02:16:55,280 --> 02:16:58,840
Speaker 1: I'm not blaming recruiters or blaming like coming up to

2256
02:16:59,680 --> 02:17:02,039
Speaker 1: h up in the military and going, you know, you're horrible.

2257
02:17:02,200 --> 02:17:04,720
Speaker 1: It's not the right thing. Hey, I was there, right,

2258
02:17:04,800 --> 02:17:08,760
Speaker 1: I did six years in the Marine Corps and and um,

2259
02:17:08,800 --> 02:17:12,440
Speaker 1: you know, instead of going hey, you're a horrible person

2260
02:17:12,600 --> 02:17:15,160
Speaker 1: or things like that, like we're trying to offer them them,

2261
02:17:15,200 --> 02:17:18,560
Speaker 1: the recruiters and other military members of the community that go, hey,

2262
02:17:18,600 --> 02:17:20,520
Speaker 1: you're allowed to speak out against the things that you

2263
02:17:20,560 --> 02:17:23,160
Speaker 1: know were bullshit while you're in there. Because I knew

2264
02:17:23,160 --> 02:17:24,680
Speaker 1: it was a bullshit while I was in there, and

2265
02:17:24,680 --> 02:17:26,200
Speaker 1: I couldn't speak out. I didn't know I had a

2266
02:17:26,240 --> 02:17:28,959
Speaker 1: community to speak out to or with, And we're trying

2267
02:17:28,959 --> 02:17:32,840
Speaker 1: to offer community to them. Um. And that's beyond beyond

2268
02:17:32,879 --> 02:17:36,279
Speaker 1: just video games, but that's drone operators and infantry guys

2269
02:17:36,400 --> 02:17:38,960
Speaker 1: and and people that are just fed up with what

2270
02:17:39,000 --> 02:17:42,480
Speaker 1: they see in a system that is supporting a crumbling infrastructure.

2271
02:17:42,760 --> 02:17:45,920
Speaker 1: Right Like, Um, you can only deploy so many times

2272
02:17:45,959 --> 02:17:50,000
Speaker 1: without developing either becoming completely dead on the inside or

2273
02:17:50,040 --> 02:17:54,240
Speaker 1: having developing some semblance of empathy that goes, Hey, deep down,

2274
02:17:54,280 --> 02:17:56,520
Speaker 1: I know something's wrong here, and I just don't know

2275
02:17:56,520 --> 02:17:59,760
Speaker 1: how to uh like, I don't know what that feeling is. Well,

2276
02:18:00,120 --> 02:18:02,520
Speaker 1: that feeling is is just empathy for the human condition

2277
02:18:02,640 --> 02:18:06,160
Speaker 1: and not wanting to see people traumatized through war. Right, Um,

2278
02:18:06,200 --> 02:18:09,680
Speaker 1: that that idea of us going into like even post

2279
02:18:09,800 --> 02:18:12,760
Speaker 1: nine eleven, like immediate post nine eleven events early on,

2280
02:18:12,800 --> 02:18:15,000
Speaker 1: they had they went there with the right the right idea.

2281
02:18:15,040 --> 02:18:17,120
Speaker 1: I wanted to defend my community. I want to be

2282
02:18:17,959 --> 02:18:21,879
Speaker 1: do do service right like I didn't have another option. Yeah,

2283
02:18:21,920 --> 02:18:24,440
Speaker 1: I'm an economic drafty, but oh at all, I'm really

2284
02:18:24,440 --> 02:18:27,280
Speaker 1: here to help defend my people. Yeah, it was, it was.

2285
02:18:27,440 --> 02:18:30,800
Speaker 1: It was a genuine thought, Like it was a genuine idea. Right,

2286
02:18:31,040 --> 02:18:34,840
Speaker 1: people you could very much disagree with, like the intentionality

2287
02:18:34,959 --> 02:18:37,840
Speaker 1: and the propaganda that like governments were doing to promote

2288
02:18:37,840 --> 02:18:41,440
Speaker 1: the war and the unjust reasons for that, but for

2289
02:18:41,480 --> 02:18:43,880
Speaker 1: the but for the regular people, right, yeah, it was

2290
02:18:44,680 --> 02:18:47,560
Speaker 1: it was it was genuine feelings that caused that to happen.

2291
02:18:47,680 --> 02:18:52,240
Speaker 1: And overlooking that, I think MSS what makes the recruitment

2292
02:18:52,280 --> 02:18:54,760
Speaker 1: to work. You know, if if if you just look

2293
02:18:54,760 --> 02:18:57,280
Speaker 1: at all the people who join the military as being like, oh,

2294
02:18:57,320 --> 02:19:00,200
Speaker 1: they're just like bad people who want to kill you know,

2295
02:19:00,280 --> 02:19:03,640
Speaker 1: brown people. You're like, that's you can think that, but

2296
02:19:03,720 --> 02:19:07,800
Speaker 1: that doesn't actually do anything to understand how recruitment actually works.

2297
02:19:07,800 --> 02:19:09,360
Speaker 1: And then if you can't do that, then you don't

2298
02:19:09,400 --> 02:19:12,640
Speaker 1: know how to actually counter it, right exactly, if you

2299
02:19:12,680 --> 02:19:15,400
Speaker 1: are a veteran and you feel like we do this

2300
02:19:15,480 --> 02:19:18,720
Speaker 1: whole thing was bullshit you and that can be uh

2301
02:19:18,760 --> 02:19:22,120
Speaker 1: an incredibly alienating experience. I've been there because it feels

2302
02:19:22,160 --> 02:19:25,000
Speaker 1: like with the amount of veterans we saw the January

2303
02:19:25,040 --> 02:19:27,480
Speaker 1: six events, um, all the veterans that you see that

2304
02:19:27,560 --> 02:19:30,560
Speaker 1: get through to the right wing side of the culture

2305
02:19:30,560 --> 02:19:33,360
Speaker 1: of war, I just want to say that we see you.

2306
02:19:33,360 --> 02:19:35,400
Speaker 1: You're not alone, you are you are not crazy, I

2307
02:19:35,440 --> 02:19:39,000
Speaker 1: promise you. We we are trying to build a community

2308
02:19:39,000 --> 02:19:42,200
Speaker 1: of people like that who understand it and promote healing

2309
02:19:42,240 --> 02:19:44,800
Speaker 1: through that community, political education through that, so that you

2310
02:19:44,840 --> 02:19:48,840
Speaker 1: can create resiliency within your community and as well as

2311
02:19:48,920 --> 02:19:51,920
Speaker 1: at least put a little bit of pressure on the

2312
02:19:52,280 --> 02:19:57,000
Speaker 1: military entertainment complex and the military recruiting apparatus. Yeah, fuck

2313
02:19:57,040 --> 02:20:02,880
Speaker 1: the military, fuck war a war. It's truth, all right

2314
02:20:02,959 --> 02:20:06,360
Speaker 1: to you two. If anything specifically you want to plug, yes,

2315
02:20:06,560 --> 02:20:10,920
Speaker 1: join our discord. You can find if you search the discord,

2316
02:20:10,959 --> 02:20:13,760
Speaker 1: you can look up Gamers for Peace and you will

2317
02:20:13,760 --> 02:20:16,800
Speaker 1: see us on Twitch. We are Veterans for Peace all

2318
02:20:16,879 --> 02:20:19,760
Speaker 1: one word, and we stream several times a week gaming

2319
02:20:19,800 --> 02:20:24,680
Speaker 1: content content about um different alternatives to military service, content

2320
02:20:24,760 --> 02:20:29,440
Speaker 1: breaking down propaganda and recruiting efforts, as well as other

2321
02:20:29,480 --> 02:20:33,200
Speaker 1: political education things. Sometimes it's just a random community game

2322
02:20:33,320 --> 02:20:35,320
Speaker 1: night as well. Um, actually no, that's not random. Those

2323
02:20:35,320 --> 02:20:40,360
Speaker 1: are on Thursdays. So there, Um, Chris, should I should

2324
02:20:40,400 --> 02:20:45,840
Speaker 1: do we add anything? I got something? Um? Uh, the

2325
02:20:46,600 --> 02:20:49,080
Speaker 1: if if one of the first things you can do

2326
02:20:49,160 --> 02:20:51,720
Speaker 1: besides going to discord and checking us out on twitch. Uh,

2327
02:20:51,800 --> 02:20:55,359
Speaker 1: we actually have an online can digital direct action campaign

2328
02:20:55,400 --> 02:20:58,960
Speaker 1: going on UH that we're pushing to allow content creators

2329
02:20:59,000 --> 02:21:01,760
Speaker 1: on Twitch as a platform to be able to opt

2330
02:21:01,760 --> 02:21:05,879
Speaker 1: out of military ads UH on their channels. So that

2331
02:21:06,080 --> 02:21:09,160
Speaker 1: is our campaign that we currently have ongoing. There's a

2332
02:21:09,160 --> 02:21:14,959
Speaker 1: petition it is uh bit dot lee slash Twitch Military

2333
02:21:15,040 --> 02:21:18,160
Speaker 1: ad opt Out is the u r L. They'll take

2334
02:21:18,160 --> 02:21:22,440
Speaker 1: you right to the Twitch petition that feedback through Twitch. UH.

2335
02:21:22,440 --> 02:21:24,959
Speaker 1: We're looking to hit a thousand at least a SAP

2336
02:21:25,680 --> 02:21:29,080
Speaker 1: on that petition UH to get some get a response

2337
02:21:29,080 --> 02:21:32,279
Speaker 1: from Twitch, and then go from there allowing content creators

2338
02:21:32,280 --> 02:21:36,320
Speaker 1: to take ownership of their of the the ads and

2339
02:21:36,400 --> 02:21:38,920
Speaker 1: stuff that are on their channels, at least when it

2340
02:21:38,959 --> 02:21:43,400
Speaker 1: comes to military recruitment UH, and then going from there. UH.

2341
02:21:43,520 --> 02:21:48,160
Speaker 1: We also UH are doing actions and planning things constantly,

2342
02:21:48,200 --> 02:21:50,680
Speaker 1: so be on the lookout joined the discord all that

2343
02:21:50,720 --> 02:21:53,280
Speaker 1: good stuff. Oh. If you need help navigating that, I'm

2344
02:21:53,280 --> 02:21:56,400
Speaker 1: a mod in the discord at plant ipa she slash

2345
02:21:56,480 --> 02:21:59,800
Speaker 1: today and you'll find me. We'll try to put that

2346
02:22:00,240 --> 02:22:03,080
Speaker 1: link for the petition in the show notes so people

2347
02:22:03,160 --> 02:22:05,600
Speaker 1: can find out with a with a with with an

2348
02:22:05,600 --> 02:22:11,720
Speaker 1: easy click. Awesome, perfect, All right, Well, thank you to

2349
02:22:11,720 --> 02:22:14,160
Speaker 1: you for joining us. We are it could happen here,

2350
02:22:15,120 --> 02:22:19,400
Speaker 1: at happened here pod in the places, in the places,

2351
02:22:19,840 --> 02:22:23,120
Speaker 1: the places you know, all those places, they're all there.

2352
02:22:23,879 --> 02:22:29,320
Speaker 1: H Well, thank you everyone for listening. And yeah, go

2353
02:22:29,480 --> 02:22:32,360
Speaker 1: play I don't know, Mario Kart eight or something. You know,

2354
02:22:32,560 --> 02:22:35,640
Speaker 1: something something fun. I don't know. I enjoyed. I enjoyed

2355
02:22:35,680 --> 02:22:39,080
Speaker 1: the Mario Kart games as a as as someone of

2356
02:22:39,120 --> 02:22:43,320
Speaker 1: my age, very very very integral to my driving education.

2357
02:22:43,520 --> 02:22:49,760
Speaker 1: So yeah, go play Mario Kart eight. Buck War not

2358
02:22:49,879 --> 02:23:02,800
Speaker 1: another generation. M hm Hi, I'm Elizabeth Dutton and I'm

2359
02:23:02,840 --> 02:23:06,480
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Dutton. Wait sorry, do you want to say your name? No,

2360
02:23:06,560 --> 02:23:09,120
Speaker 1: I'm good, good, go ahead. We're the hosts of Ridiculous Crime.

2361
02:23:09,400 --> 02:23:12,720
Speaker 1: People love true crime, right, the mystery, the intrigue, the

2362
02:23:12,800 --> 02:23:15,600
Speaker 1: human frailty totally. But what a lot of us don't

2363
02:23:15,680 --> 02:23:17,720
Speaker 1: like is the blood and the guts and the mayhem.

2364
02:23:17,840 --> 02:23:20,560
Speaker 1: Wait wait, wait wait, some of us do like the mayhem. Okay,

2365
02:23:20,720 --> 02:23:23,400
Speaker 1: but let's be real, there's nothing funny about murder. Okay.

2366
02:23:23,440 --> 02:23:26,600
Speaker 1: That's our show gives you stories like the kidnapping of

2367
02:23:26,640 --> 02:23:30,520
Speaker 1: Frank Sinatra Jr. And the Max Headrooms signal hijacking. Oh,

2368
02:23:30,600 --> 02:23:33,680
Speaker 1: so you mean ridiculous stories like the UK cat Shaver

2369
02:23:33,800 --> 02:23:37,600
Speaker 1: and Pablo Escobar's cocaine hippos. Yeah, stories like the dudes

2370
02:23:37,640 --> 02:23:40,879
Speaker 1: who stole Buzzy, the animatronic whatever he was from Disney World,

2371
02:23:40,959 --> 02:23:42,720
Speaker 1: and the woman whose husband tried to kill her but

2372
02:23:42,800 --> 02:23:44,920
Speaker 1: came back from the dead and surprised him at her

2373
02:23:44,920 --> 02:23:47,360
Speaker 1: own funeral. Yeah, that does sound good. You can find

2374
02:23:47,360 --> 02:23:50,959
Speaker 1: this new podcast, Ridiculous Crime all over the place, the

2375
02:23:51,040 --> 02:23:54,039
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, the Apple podcast, or wherever you

2376
02:23:54,040 --> 02:23:56,800
Speaker 1: get your podcast. I don't know how you live Ridiculous Crime.

2377
02:23:58,440 --> 02:24:01,000
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to our show. I'm Zoe de Chanelle

2378
02:24:01,000 --> 02:24:03,199
Speaker 1: and I'm so excited to be joined by my friends

2379
02:24:03,200 --> 02:24:05,959
Speaker 1: and cast Meats Hannah Simone and Lamar and Morris to

2380
02:24:06,080 --> 02:24:09,680
Speaker 1: recap our hit television series New Girl. Join us every

2381
02:24:09,720 --> 02:24:12,280
Speaker 1: Monday on the Welcome to Our Show podcast, where we'll

2382
02:24:12,320 --> 02:24:15,400
Speaker 1: share behind the scenes stories of your favorite New Girl episodes,

2383
02:24:15,560 --> 02:24:18,680
Speaker 1: revealed the truth behind the legendary game True American, and

2384
02:24:18,959 --> 02:24:22,120
Speaker 1: discuss how this show got made with the writers, guest stars,

2385
02:24:22,120 --> 02:24:24,760
Speaker 1: and directors who made the show so special. Fans have

2386
02:24:24,840 --> 02:24:27,400
Speaker 1: been begging us to do a New Girl recap for years.

2387
02:24:27,440 --> 02:24:30,320
Speaker 1: And we finally made a podcast where we answer all

2388
02:24:30,400 --> 02:24:33,960
Speaker 1: your burning questions like is there really a bear? In

2389
02:24:34,040 --> 02:24:37,200
Speaker 1: every episode of New Girl. Plus each week you'll hear

2390
02:24:37,360 --> 02:24:40,640
Speaker 1: hilarious stories like this at the end, when he says

2391
02:24:40,720 --> 02:24:43,040
Speaker 1: you got some schmid on your face. I feel like

2392
02:24:43,160 --> 02:24:45,640
Speaker 1: I pitched that joke. I believe that. I feel like

2393
02:24:45,680 --> 02:24:47,320
Speaker 1: I did. I'm not on a thousand percent I want

2394
02:24:47,320 --> 02:24:49,880
Speaker 1: to say that was I tossed that one out. Listen

2395
02:24:49,879 --> 02:24:51,840
Speaker 1: to the Welcome to Our Show podcast on the I

2396
02:24:51,959 --> 02:25:00,320
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah,

2397
02:25:02,560 --> 02:25:07,600
Speaker 1: oh boy, it could happen. Here is the podcast that

2398
02:25:07,680 --> 02:25:11,680
Speaker 1: you're listening to. All right, st Andrew that that's my

2399
02:25:11,760 --> 02:25:14,560
Speaker 1: job done today? Why why don't you take over? Good job.

2400
02:25:14,560 --> 02:25:18,440
Speaker 1: I'm proud of you. Thank you. Welcome everybody to another

2401
02:25:18,840 --> 02:25:23,600
Speaker 1: wonderful episode of it could happen here to d open

2402
02:25:23,640 --> 02:25:29,480
Speaker 1: to take a look at another book, well two books,

2403
02:25:29,480 --> 02:25:34,120
Speaker 1: this time this time works of fiction, and this time

2404
02:25:34,160 --> 02:25:39,959
Speaker 1: by an English, unfortunately writer named Alice Huxley. Right, we'll

2405
02:25:40,000 --> 02:25:43,800
Speaker 1: be looking at Island and Free of New Wild, the

2406
02:25:43,959 --> 02:25:51,080
Speaker 1: sort of twins of speculative science fiction. I would say

2407
02:25:52,440 --> 02:25:57,520
Speaker 1: Alice Huxley was like I said, an English writer and philosopher,

2408
02:25:57,959 --> 02:26:02,240
Speaker 1: and he actually wrote a lot of books, um fifty

2409
02:26:02,440 --> 02:26:05,400
Speaker 1: in his lifetime to be precise. He was also a

2410
02:26:05,400 --> 02:26:10,840
Speaker 1: French teacher who interestingly enough taught George ol But I

2411
02:26:10,879 --> 02:26:15,039
Speaker 1: did not know from yeah, but from what m what

2412
02:26:15,240 --> 02:26:20,520
Speaker 1: his past students have said. He wasn't a particularly good teacher, okay,

2413
02:26:20,800 --> 02:26:24,840
Speaker 1: but he was a good speaker. Um. He was also

2414
02:26:24,920 --> 02:26:30,440
Speaker 1: a very very big fan of psychedelics and mysticism and philosophy,

2415
02:26:30,680 --> 02:26:34,920
Speaker 1: and particularly like advise I don't know if IM pronounced

2416
02:26:34,920 --> 02:26:39,200
Speaker 1: that correctly, but advoate vendata, which is like a Hindu

2417
02:26:39,280 --> 02:26:42,800
Speaker 1: spiritual practice. Yeah, I know, he's He's even referenced a

2418
02:26:42,800 --> 02:26:46,360
Speaker 1: lot and like occultist and chaos magic books written like

2419
02:26:46,480 --> 02:26:49,960
Speaker 1: post the sixties. He's yeah, yeah, yeah, he's He's like

2420
02:26:50,160 --> 02:26:58,120
Speaker 1: um that guys like his name again Alan Watts, Yeah guy, yeah,

2421
02:26:59,040 --> 02:27:03,879
Speaker 1: also very interesting. Um. Huxley actually had LSD injected into

2422
02:27:03,879 --> 02:27:12,680
Speaker 1: his veins a basic Yes, he was like he was dying,

2423
02:27:13,080 --> 02:27:16,640
Speaker 1: as you know one does on their deathbed, and that

2424
02:27:16,800 --> 02:27:20,200
Speaker 1: is the traditional thing to do traditionally. Yes, while in

2425
02:27:20,240 --> 02:27:23,360
Speaker 1: the process of dying, because he had like advanced learning

2426
02:27:23,400 --> 02:27:26,640
Speaker 1: your cancer, he had to write to his wife Laura,

2427
02:27:27,040 --> 02:27:34,120
Speaker 1: he was just like lsd intermuscular. He's like, okay, Jackson,

2428
02:27:35,840 --> 02:27:40,200
Speaker 1: inject him fucking muscle. And she doesn't inject him with

2429
02:27:40,320 --> 02:27:43,400
Speaker 1: one dose. She injects him with two doses and then

2430
02:27:43,440 --> 02:27:48,280
Speaker 1: he dies like several hours later. Incredibly based what Awa

2431
02:27:49,320 --> 02:27:53,840
Speaker 1: staggeringly based, And honestly, if if he was like speaking

2432
02:27:53,840 --> 02:27:55,880
Speaker 1: on the deathbed, I would really love to know, like

2433
02:27:56,000 --> 02:27:58,200
Speaker 1: what that experience was, like, like are you just like

2434
02:27:59,080 --> 02:28:04,480
Speaker 1: dancing through like what's going on? I mean it could

2435
02:28:04,520 --> 02:28:07,240
Speaker 1: it could think I can see of being the most

2436
02:28:07,280 --> 02:28:14,080
Speaker 1: amazing thing and also extreme plainly terrified. Right as a

2437
02:28:14,120 --> 02:28:18,520
Speaker 1: general rule, when like Pete, they've done studies on like

2438
02:28:18,800 --> 02:28:24,160
Speaker 1: giving different kinds of psychedelics, usually silocybin mushrooms to um

2439
02:28:25,320 --> 02:28:28,800
Speaker 1: people who are in hospice and it it generally reduces

2440
02:28:28,840 --> 02:28:33,720
Speaker 1: their fear of death. Yeah they go in peace. Yeah yeah,

2441
02:28:33,720 --> 02:28:36,720
Speaker 1: it just makes them like, ah, you know what, everything

2442
02:28:37,000 --> 02:28:40,720
Speaker 1: is the same as everything else, and we're the imagination

2443
02:28:40,720 --> 02:28:43,800
Speaker 1: of the universe. I'm going to go back into space,

2444
02:28:46,000 --> 02:28:49,720
Speaker 1: which is fine. Good for them, Yeah yeah, good for them,

2445
02:28:49,959 --> 02:28:52,160
Speaker 1: good for them. If I want my death bed, I

2446
02:28:52,160 --> 02:28:55,760
Speaker 1: already wouldn't want to be thinking about death either Yeah,

2447
02:28:55,800 --> 02:28:57,800
Speaker 1: I mean that assumes that, you know, we get a

2448
02:28:57,840 --> 02:28:59,560
Speaker 1: death bed, you know, and that's the kind of wild

2449
02:28:59,560 --> 02:29:01,440
Speaker 1: thing about death. You don't know when it's going to happen.

2450
02:29:01,879 --> 02:29:07,480
Speaker 1: But to return into the topic of discussion Brief New

2451
02:29:07,520 --> 02:29:14,640
Speaker 1: World and Ireland, right, to summarize the plots of both,

2452
02:29:14,680 --> 02:29:16,520
Speaker 1: I guess I'll start with Brief New Wild It is

2453
02:29:16,520 --> 02:29:18,800
Speaker 1: the more famous of the two. I don't think a

2454
02:29:18,879 --> 02:29:21,160
Speaker 1: lot of people have hood of Island compared to Brief

2455
02:29:21,160 --> 02:29:24,160
Speaker 1: New World because Brief New World and High School. But

2456
02:29:24,920 --> 02:29:28,480
Speaker 1: I have not read Island exactly, and it's like it's

2457
02:29:28,480 --> 02:29:32,280
Speaker 1: released as a lot about society. That that that we

2458
02:29:32,280 --> 02:29:37,040
Speaker 1: read about the dystopias, but not the youtubeias. But anyway,

2459
02:29:38,160 --> 02:29:40,000
Speaker 1: Brief New World, you know, it's really up there with

2460
02:29:40,080 --> 02:29:47,920
Speaker 1: like in terms of um, you know, it's it's notoriety. Um.

2461
02:29:47,920 --> 02:29:52,720
Speaker 1: It is like one of the quintessential dystopias. It's set

2462
02:29:52,800 --> 02:29:57,600
Speaker 1: like several hundred years into the future, like which you know,

2463
02:29:58,160 --> 02:30:03,360
Speaker 1: to place which it's several decades ago. Brave New World

2464
02:30:03,440 --> 02:30:07,600
Speaker 1: was set in two thousand and fifty four, two thousand five,

2465
02:30:07,640 --> 02:30:15,680
Speaker 1: huty see, so several direct times. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But however,

2466
02:30:15,920 --> 02:30:20,320
Speaker 1: in the book it isn't called two thousand five. It's

2467
02:30:20,360 --> 02:30:25,640
Speaker 1: called six three to a F a F standing for

2468
02:30:25,879 --> 02:30:30,119
Speaker 1: after Ford. Because in this world, and I'm sure we'll

2469
02:30:30,120 --> 02:30:34,280
Speaker 1: get into this a bit, Henry Ford, the assembly lying guy,

2470
02:30:34,600 --> 02:30:40,080
Speaker 1: the monet guy, he is basically god. He is the

2471
02:30:40,120 --> 02:30:42,760
Speaker 1: god of their world. You know, Yeah, that wouldn't be ideal.

2472
02:30:43,920 --> 02:30:46,440
Speaker 1: They say things like by Ford's name and that kind

2473
02:30:46,480 --> 02:30:52,360
Speaker 1: of thing, you know, and his school sort of assembly

2474
02:30:52,440 --> 02:30:57,760
Speaker 1: line structure. Um, it's basically a chopolated to society as

2475
02:30:57,800 --> 02:31:02,800
Speaker 1: a whole. Right, there's this world state where emotions and

2476
02:31:02,879 --> 02:31:08,039
Speaker 1: individuality of condition out of children and everyone belongs to

2477
02:31:08,120 --> 02:31:13,240
Speaker 1: everyone else, and you know, there's children are created in

2478
02:31:13,440 --> 02:31:19,480
Speaker 1: like factories and generated to be part of specific classes,

2479
02:31:19,600 --> 02:31:24,039
Speaker 1: whether it be alpha, beta, Gamma, delta, or epsilon. So

2480
02:31:24,080 --> 02:31:29,119
Speaker 1: it's like it's kind of like what's what's what's happening today?

2481
02:31:29,440 --> 02:31:33,640
Speaker 1: You know, in terms of the Greek alphabet um, we

2482
02:31:33,680 --> 02:31:35,200
Speaker 1: have the alpha's who are bred to be like the

2483
02:31:35,280 --> 02:31:37,440
Speaker 1: leaders and stuff, and you're the absilons who are bred

2484
02:31:37,440 --> 02:31:42,080
Speaker 1: to be like the menial libras, and you have the

2485
02:31:42,120 --> 02:31:45,080
Speaker 1: folks in between, and like they are literally conditioned, you know,

2486
02:31:45,160 --> 02:31:48,480
Speaker 1: So like in the factory in the baby making factory,

2487
02:31:48,560 --> 02:31:51,640
Speaker 1: which is in this case literal and not a euphemism

2488
02:31:51,800 --> 02:31:56,760
Speaker 1: for the womb um. You know, they like poled back

2489
02:31:56,800 --> 02:32:01,000
Speaker 1: on oxygen or they apply certain chemicals sitting hormones in

2490
02:32:01,120 --> 02:32:03,680
Speaker 1: order to like condition people. So they don't do like

2491
02:32:04,200 --> 02:32:10,080
Speaker 1: genetic um like coding whatever. They just they do a

2492
02:32:10,240 --> 02:32:15,160
Speaker 1: chemical concoctions in those sort of test tubes. And yeah,

2493
02:32:15,200 --> 02:32:17,800
Speaker 1: I mean the story of the world is really how

2494
02:32:17,840 --> 02:32:20,920
Speaker 1: it's affecting, like that's on the top level of people

2495
02:32:20,959 --> 02:32:25,320
Speaker 1: within it and sort of contrasted with sort of reservations

2496
02:32:25,400 --> 02:32:29,440
Speaker 1: that exist in their world where people are a bit

2497
02:32:29,520 --> 02:32:37,039
Speaker 1: less restricted. Um. And it ends pretty tragically, But the

2498
02:32:37,120 --> 02:32:40,720
Speaker 1: next book also ends tragically. The extra for being Island,

2499
02:32:40,760 --> 02:32:45,280
Speaker 1: which is like the utuopian twin for a Brief New

2500
02:32:45,280 --> 02:32:47,520
Speaker 1: World in a lot of ways, in terms of memory,

2501
02:32:48,000 --> 02:32:51,040
Speaker 1: mirroring a lot of the same themes that Brief New

2502
02:32:51,040 --> 02:32:56,800
Speaker 1: World explores. Right, So in Ireland there's this specific island

2503
02:32:56,840 --> 02:33:01,640
Speaker 1: called Parlor, which is um fictional. I mean, there was

2504
02:33:01,680 --> 02:33:06,720
Speaker 1: an area in India cold Parlor, but the island of

2505
02:33:06,720 --> 02:33:09,240
Speaker 1: Parlor in this world is like it doesn't exist, right,

2506
02:33:09,560 --> 02:33:12,560
Speaker 1: and it's basically seen as this oasis of happiness and

2507
02:33:12,680 --> 02:33:18,879
Speaker 1: freedom and where it's inhabitants of resisted capitalism and consumerism

2508
02:33:19,040 --> 02:33:24,199
Speaker 1: and technology. Right then this journalist, another British guy named

2509
02:33:24,240 --> 02:33:30,200
Speaker 1: Will Farnaby Um pulls up on their island and he's

2510
02:33:30,200 --> 02:33:34,600
Speaker 1: basically trying to scoop out the island for exploitation because

2511
02:33:34,760 --> 02:33:38,960
Speaker 1: he's friends with this industrialist who's trying to like extract

2512
02:33:39,040 --> 02:33:44,800
Speaker 1: oil from the region. And while he's going through the

2513
02:33:44,840 --> 02:33:47,720
Speaker 1: island and really going through the society going through the book,

2514
02:33:48,520 --> 02:33:50,360
Speaker 1: there are a lot of monologues and stuff. I mean,

2515
02:33:50,360 --> 02:33:53,280
Speaker 1: this book is kind of heavy on the monologues and

2516
02:33:53,280 --> 02:33:57,160
Speaker 1: the discussions. It's kind of like Alice Hucksley's soup box

2517
02:33:57,240 --> 02:34:00,360
Speaker 1: for all his ideas, just laying them all out there. Right.

2518
02:34:00,400 --> 02:34:03,959
Speaker 1: So Will enters palace a cynic, but by time he

2519
02:34:04,000 --> 02:34:07,640
Speaker 1: comes out, he's like he's had like layers on layers

2520
02:34:07,640 --> 02:34:12,560
Speaker 1: of epiphanies. And I don't know for those who have

2521
02:34:12,560 --> 02:34:16,920
Speaker 1: been reading to one of everything recently. Um. In chapter

2522
02:34:17,000 --> 02:34:21,800
Speaker 1: two there the authors David when Grown David Group. But

2523
02:34:21,840 --> 02:34:24,600
Speaker 1: this sort of outline some of the discussions that were

2524
02:34:24,600 --> 02:34:28,800
Speaker 1: happening that were happening between Europeans and Indigenous Americans at

2525
02:34:28,800 --> 02:34:32,119
Speaker 1: the time. Of arrival and how those discussions were shaping

2526
02:34:32,959 --> 02:34:38,920
Speaker 1: both um apparently the Europeans view of society. Interestingly, it's

2527
02:34:39,000 --> 02:34:41,640
Speaker 1: kind of like reflected here because you know, I have

2528
02:34:41,760 --> 02:34:44,760
Speaker 1: this white man who pulls up with all his English ideas,

2529
02:34:44,879 --> 02:34:49,800
Speaker 1: and it's basically these indigenous inhabitants and parlor basically deconstructing

2530
02:34:49,800 --> 02:34:53,960
Speaker 1: his ideas through dialogue, UM, and through debate and discussion,

2531
02:34:55,280 --> 02:35:00,280
Speaker 1: and unfortunately it doesn't end very well. Despite you know,

2532
02:35:00,360 --> 02:35:03,720
Speaker 1: being convinced of the purity and brilliance of the poloniese

2533
02:35:03,800 --> 02:35:06,040
Speaker 1: we have lived in UM, he already made the deal

2534
02:35:06,080 --> 02:35:11,400
Speaker 1: with the industrialist and Paula um Is has basically been

2535
02:35:11,400 --> 02:35:16,800
Speaker 1: sold by an by neighboring country and so it's downfall

2536
02:35:17,000 --> 02:35:23,160
Speaker 1: is now sadly inevitable. And that's how it ends. Oh

2537
02:35:23,160 --> 02:35:27,080
Speaker 1: and also UM will want to be kind of as

2538
02:35:27,120 --> 02:35:29,200
Speaker 1: like an LST Well sound really LSD, but it's like

2539
02:35:29,280 --> 02:35:33,160
Speaker 1: a psychedelic trip. Yeah, it's like a combination like and

2540
02:35:33,240 --> 02:35:39,160
Speaker 1: almost yeah, yeah and true how this Hucksley fashion. Yeah yeah,

2541
02:35:39,200 --> 02:35:42,080
Speaker 1: there's like a lot of the tropes and like its

2542
02:35:42,200 --> 02:35:46,360
Speaker 1: themes that were President Brave New World exists in island,

2543
02:35:46,720 --> 02:35:49,480
Speaker 1: but as like their inversion, so like in terms of

2544
02:35:49,520 --> 02:35:52,880
Speaker 1: like it showed like the like Brave New World has

2545
02:35:52,879 --> 02:35:58,480
Speaker 1: written before Huxley had psychedelics. It was like his his

2546
02:35:58,680 --> 02:36:01,160
Speaker 1: version of drug uses so different in that book. It's

2547
02:36:01,200 --> 02:36:05,840
Speaker 1: more like a pacifying drug um, whereas the drug used

2548
02:36:05,840 --> 02:36:09,279
Speaker 1: in Ireland it's more like a like an enlightening drugs.

2549
02:36:09,720 --> 02:36:12,320
Speaker 1: But there's a whole bunch of themes that like parallel

2550
02:36:12,640 --> 02:36:16,840
Speaker 1: but are also inverted on each other. Yeah, exactly exactly,

2551
02:36:16,879 --> 02:36:19,879
Speaker 1: And we're gonna get into those themes just now. But

2552
02:36:19,959 --> 02:36:24,680
Speaker 1: to summarize, for if New World is basically humans becoming

2553
02:36:24,920 --> 02:36:30,640
Speaker 1: less than human because of all these technological and sociological

2554
02:36:31,040 --> 02:36:36,040
Speaker 1: um efforts, where as Ireland is like the opposite. We ha,

2555
02:36:36,240 --> 02:36:39,840
Speaker 1: you know, humans are able to come into the fullness

2556
02:36:40,000 --> 02:36:45,600
Speaker 1: of the humanness um while still using science except in

2557
02:36:45,600 --> 02:36:50,400
Speaker 1: a way to enhance their quality of life. I don't

2558
02:36:50,400 --> 02:36:52,560
Speaker 1: know if I missed any aspect of either plots that

2559
02:36:53,080 --> 02:36:54,880
Speaker 1: and if you want to like touch on a real

2560
02:36:54,959 --> 02:36:59,600
Speaker 1: quick no, no, no really, okay, yeah, I mean I

2561
02:36:59,640 --> 02:37:02,720
Speaker 1: all said one thing is interested because Brave New World

2562
02:37:02,800 --> 02:37:06,520
Speaker 1: also has this sort of like weird like going to

2563
02:37:06,600 --> 02:37:10,640
Speaker 1: a reservation plot that's like, yeah, kind of a b plot,

2564
02:37:10,680 --> 02:37:12,400
Speaker 1: but you see sort of it's another one of those

2565
02:37:12,400 --> 02:37:16,160
Speaker 1: things instead of like I don't know if invert its

2566
02:37:16,200 --> 02:37:22,360
Speaker 1: the right word, but the sort of context of it

2567
02:37:22,400 --> 02:37:26,920
Speaker 1: is very, very different in Island than it isn't Brave

2568
02:37:26,959 --> 02:37:29,920
Speaker 1: New World. Yeah, yeah, because I mean in a sense

2569
02:37:30,040 --> 02:37:35,760
Speaker 1: you have this outside of protagonist who is introduced to

2570
02:37:35,800 --> 02:37:43,040
Speaker 1: this alternate way of living UM and is transformed by it.

2571
02:37:43,440 --> 02:37:48,240
Speaker 1: You know, except in Brave New Wild, you know, he

2572
02:37:48,320 --> 02:37:54,720
Speaker 1: ends up killing himself and in Island, well he already

2573
02:37:54,760 --> 02:38:00,480
Speaker 1: sold out the island. You know. I will say, UM

2574
02:38:00,600 --> 02:38:02,560
Speaker 1: one criticism that I want to get out to the

2575
02:38:02,560 --> 02:38:06,000
Speaker 1: way before we get into the concepts and you know

2576
02:38:06,000 --> 02:38:09,320
Speaker 1: how they might apply to politics as a whole. Really

2577
02:38:10,400 --> 02:38:15,840
Speaker 1: is Huxley, like a lot of authors and thinkers and

2578
02:38:16,600 --> 02:38:24,840
Speaker 1: ideologues of his time, has this very unsettling h fixation

2579
02:38:25,720 --> 02:38:30,119
Speaker 1: on overpopulation. It's kind of like what we were talking

2580
02:38:30,160 --> 02:38:34,480
Speaker 1: about UM with the last book we discussed here UM,

2581
02:38:34,480 --> 02:38:37,640
Speaker 1: this sort of weird fixation and over population and you know,

2582
02:38:37,720 --> 02:38:43,440
Speaker 1: people dying out and that kind of thing. UM. In

2583
02:38:43,920 --> 02:38:48,440
Speaker 1: in Parlia and in in Ireland, there's a sort of

2584
02:38:49,480 --> 02:38:54,320
Speaker 1: acceptance of UM of population as something that needs to

2585
02:38:54,360 --> 02:38:58,280
Speaker 1: be you know, avoided until I guess it brings us

2586
02:38:58,320 --> 02:39:04,160
Speaker 1: to the first the which is the use of contraception

2587
02:39:04,800 --> 02:39:08,680
Speaker 1: in both books. Right, Like, on one hand, you have

2588
02:39:09,480 --> 02:39:15,360
Speaker 1: in Brief New World where there's like mandatory contraception and

2589
02:39:15,480 --> 02:39:18,920
Speaker 1: people are literally not allowed to like naturally give birth,

2590
02:39:18,959 --> 02:39:22,000
Speaker 1: you know, they have to have babies through test you.

2591
02:39:22,720 --> 02:39:28,320
Speaker 1: Whereas in Parlor, you know, there's reproductive education and reproductive

2592
02:39:28,400 --> 02:39:35,000
Speaker 1: choice and expressive sex. And it's really like a complete contrast.

2593
02:39:36,160 --> 02:39:38,400
Speaker 1: So I guess I want to do something like I

2594
02:39:38,480 --> 02:39:45,320
Speaker 1: like speculating and thinking about how anarchy would operate. UM,

2595
02:39:45,360 --> 02:39:46,760
Speaker 1: I think there needs to be a lot more of

2596
02:39:46,800 --> 02:39:52,119
Speaker 1: that in terms of um creative works and discussions. I mean,

2597
02:39:52,160 --> 02:39:55,920
Speaker 1: like there was at the Cafe by my Tester, and

2598
02:39:56,040 --> 02:40:01,000
Speaker 1: there are some like utopian fictions out there, but and

2599
02:40:01,280 --> 02:40:06,720
Speaker 1: I like less than utopian, but still interesting explorations of

2600
02:40:07,040 --> 02:40:10,800
Speaker 1: anarchist society. It's like it's lucky the quins that is possessed.

2601
02:40:11,480 --> 02:40:15,200
Speaker 1: It is interesting to me that even in mainstream sort

2602
02:40:15,240 --> 02:40:18,520
Speaker 1: of imagining, whenever there's an attempt to envision a utopia,

2603
02:40:18,800 --> 02:40:22,560
Speaker 1: there's nearly always a lot of anarchist principles involved in that.

2604
02:40:22,959 --> 02:40:27,840
Speaker 1: It's basically impossible to imagine a utopia without aspects of

2605
02:40:27,879 --> 02:40:31,000
Speaker 1: anarchist theory making it into it exactly, and it tends

2606
02:40:31,040 --> 02:40:33,840
Speaker 1: to be like some elements of anti work in there,

2607
02:40:34,200 --> 02:40:38,680
Speaker 1: and like you know, like to post work, post hierarchy,

2608
02:40:39,240 --> 02:40:43,960
Speaker 1: freedom of association. Yeah, yeah, yeah, as I kind of

2609
02:40:43,959 --> 02:40:46,800
Speaker 1: want to look at that, look at these works through

2610
02:40:46,840 --> 02:40:50,080
Speaker 1: that lens as well. Here mostly Island considering Island is

2611
02:40:50,080 --> 02:40:54,760
Speaker 1: a clue so actual than Reeve New World is. Yeah,

2612
02:40:54,840 --> 02:41:02,360
Speaker 1: I'd say so just a little bit. Yeah, yeah, Like

2613
02:41:04,320 --> 02:41:09,520
Speaker 1: when you look at how sexual liberation is treated in Ireland,

2614
02:41:09,720 --> 02:41:13,720
Speaker 1: it is pretty much an echo of what anarchists were

2615
02:41:13,760 --> 02:41:18,040
Speaker 1: saying about free love in like nearly twenty than likely

2616
02:41:18,200 --> 02:41:20,480
Speaker 1: nineteenth century, you know, because I feel like I'm a

2617
02:41:20,520 --> 02:41:24,760
Speaker 1: gold one, like free choice and contraceptive access and that

2618
02:41:24,879 --> 02:41:31,680
Speaker 1: sort of thing, reproductive choice, free love. It's really in Paula,

2619
02:41:31,720 --> 02:41:36,199
Speaker 1: I would see, UM they have this sort of elements

2620
02:41:36,240 --> 02:41:42,240
Speaker 1: as well of like communal child rearing, I mean in UM,

2621
02:41:42,280 --> 02:41:44,320
Speaker 1: which is another thing I spoke about that and like

2622
02:41:44,800 --> 02:41:47,600
Speaker 1: my video in December on the family, like the fact

2623
02:41:47,640 --> 02:41:51,720
Speaker 1: that humans basically evolved in an allow parental arrangement, in

2624
02:41:51,760 --> 02:41:55,879
Speaker 1: a corporative reading arrangement. Yeah, because of capitalism has moved

2625
02:41:55,920 --> 02:41:58,440
Speaker 1: away from that. Yeah, there's a lot of if you

2626
02:41:58,520 --> 02:42:01,600
Speaker 1: if you study how kind of different societies that were

2627
02:42:01,640 --> 02:42:04,120
Speaker 1: not capitalists handled child rearing, there's a lot of like

2628
02:42:04,320 --> 02:42:08,000
Speaker 1: very interesting I think my favorite is and it was

2629
02:42:08,120 --> 02:42:13,240
Speaker 1: some indigenous group in um South America who's like cultural

2630
02:42:13,320 --> 02:42:16,840
Speaker 1: belief was that, um, you didn't you didn't have like

2631
02:42:16,959 --> 02:42:20,160
Speaker 1: one man have sex with a woman, and that like

2632
02:42:20,320 --> 02:42:24,920
Speaker 1: leads conceiving child. It starts the process. And so once

2633
02:42:24,959 --> 02:42:27,320
Speaker 1: you've started the process of making a child, the woman

2634
02:42:27,360 --> 02:42:29,640
Speaker 1: then is going to pick out all of the guys

2635
02:42:29,720 --> 02:42:31,920
Speaker 1: that she thinks have traits that she wants to be

2636
02:42:32,240 --> 02:42:34,600
Speaker 1: like part of the child she's making, and has sex

2637
02:42:34,640 --> 02:42:38,120
Speaker 1: with them, because you're like gradually building the child by

2638
02:42:38,160 --> 02:42:41,720
Speaker 1: having like adding additional sperm to it, which means that

2639
02:42:42,080 --> 02:42:44,320
Speaker 1: when they have the kid, all of those guys that

2640
02:42:44,360 --> 02:42:47,360
Speaker 1: she had sex pregnant have a responsibility to rear the

2641
02:42:47,440 --> 02:42:50,599
Speaker 1: child and teach it things, which I think is objectively

2642
02:42:50,640 --> 02:42:54,080
Speaker 1: the best way to treat kids. It's that's such an

2643
02:42:54,080 --> 02:42:58,000
Speaker 1: interesting metaphysical concept in terms of like what constitutes like

2644
02:42:58,240 --> 02:43:01,080
Speaker 1: even like the the idea of petic makeup, because even

2645
02:43:01,080 --> 02:43:04,520
Speaker 1: though it's not like literally true, it's still like if

2646
02:43:04,600 --> 02:43:07,000
Speaker 1: you can convince yourself of that in your head, then

2647
02:43:07,040 --> 02:43:10,000
Speaker 1: it kind of is physically true, and it will it

2648
02:43:10,040 --> 02:43:12,800
Speaker 1: will be true enough for the kid because like because

2649
02:43:12,879 --> 02:43:19,840
Speaker 1: most all these different fathers, exactly father's treats are gonna

2650
02:43:19,920 --> 02:43:22,840
Speaker 1: like manifest in the child anyway because they were raised

2651
02:43:22,840 --> 02:43:25,000
Speaker 1: by them. Therefore, I think we should all agree to

2652
02:43:25,120 --> 02:43:29,280
Speaker 1: just act like it works that way. Yeah, but I

2653
02:43:29,320 --> 02:43:31,000
Speaker 1: mean like and also like in terms of like the

2654
02:43:31,040 --> 02:43:34,840
Speaker 1: group living in Island versus like Brave New World everywhere else,

2655
02:43:34,840 --> 02:43:37,800
Speaker 1: it's always like you don't you have group living because

2656
02:43:37,800 --> 02:43:41,200
Speaker 1: you've lost like the idea of individuality, right versus groups

2657
02:43:41,240 --> 02:43:43,600
Speaker 1: living in Island is more like you know how like

2658
02:43:43,680 --> 02:43:47,160
Speaker 1: anarchists have like group homes and that's it's it's very

2659
02:43:47,200 --> 02:43:50,400
Speaker 1: similar to group living allows you to be the best

2660
02:43:50,520 --> 02:43:53,440
Speaker 1: version of yourself, because the best version of yourself exists

2661
02:43:53,440 --> 02:43:57,920
Speaker 1: in the community. Yeah, there's like there's like a barista

2662
02:43:58,120 --> 02:44:00,560
Speaker 1: or whatever. There's a kind of like a jokey ration fist.

2663
02:44:00,600 --> 02:44:02,039
Speaker 1: I think about a lot where it's like if you

2664
02:44:02,080 --> 02:44:04,600
Speaker 1: see a block and like you're looking at it like

2665
02:44:04,600 --> 02:44:06,879
Speaker 1: a black block, right, It's like the way you can

2666
02:44:06,920 --> 02:44:08,560
Speaker 1: tell that there are a mouse involved is if you

2667
02:44:08,600 --> 02:44:10,920
Speaker 1: see a bunch of people actually like legitimately wearing all

2668
02:44:10,959 --> 02:44:13,640
Speaker 1: the same thing, it's like like it's it's it's like

2669
02:44:13,680 --> 02:44:17,360
Speaker 1: it's it's really like it's it's it's extremely rare that like,

2670
02:44:18,160 --> 02:44:20,440
Speaker 1: even even when you're doing this for security reasons, that

2671
02:44:20,480 --> 02:44:22,680
Speaker 1: you can get a bunch of anarchists to actually literally

2672
02:44:22,720 --> 02:44:27,039
Speaker 1: all wear exactly the same thing, because it's like it's like, yeah,

2673
02:44:27,120 --> 02:44:28,560
Speaker 1: you have this sort of like I mean, okay, this

2674
02:44:28,600 --> 02:44:31,840
Speaker 1: is this is not like always true, but like it's

2675
02:44:31,879 --> 02:44:34,400
Speaker 1: it's I don't know, you you you have this thing

2676
02:44:34,440 --> 02:44:37,080
Speaker 1: where even when you're like even when anarchists are like

2677
02:44:37,120 --> 02:44:39,960
Speaker 1: trying to sort of like fade into a single mass,

2678
02:44:40,080 --> 02:44:43,600
Speaker 1: it's like like like they literally can't do it because

2679
02:44:43,600 --> 02:44:47,400
Speaker 1: everyone has this sort of like this individual step. Definitely

2680
02:44:47,480 --> 02:44:50,360
Speaker 1: seeing people be bad at block more often than I've

2681
02:44:50,360 --> 02:44:52,480
Speaker 1: seen them be good at it. Yeah, it's like I

2682
02:44:52,520 --> 02:44:55,360
Speaker 1: don't know, I mean, like the actual hiding part of it. Yeah, yeah,

2683
02:44:55,400 --> 02:45:00,720
Speaker 1: but I don't know, like it's it's it's, it's there's,

2684
02:45:00,840 --> 02:45:04,360
Speaker 1: there's there there there's a way of sort of egalitarianism

2685
02:45:04,360 --> 02:45:06,760
Speaker 1: and sociality where like you treat everyone as if they

2686
02:45:06,760 --> 02:45:09,760
Speaker 1: were exactly the same and like and you know, and

2687
02:45:09,800 --> 02:45:11,520
Speaker 1: there there's models of this word. It's like, yeah, it's

2688
02:45:11,520 --> 02:45:14,039
Speaker 1: like okay, you actually try to like force everyone to

2689
02:45:14,040 --> 02:45:15,640
Speaker 1: be exactly the same, where like everyone to be exactly

2690
02:45:15,640 --> 02:45:17,680
Speaker 1: the same in the class, and like that sucks and

2691
02:45:17,720 --> 02:45:20,039
Speaker 1: you shouldn't do it. And the alternative to that is

2692
02:45:20,120 --> 02:45:22,320
Speaker 1: everyone is just sort of like in a group. But

2693
02:45:22,360 --> 02:45:27,720
Speaker 1: they're all like I don't I remember entirely. Sure, this

2694
02:45:27,720 --> 02:45:30,280
Speaker 1: don't make any sense, but it's I don't know, there

2695
02:45:30,720 --> 02:45:34,640
Speaker 1: are yeah. Yeah, it's like like the purpose of the

2696
02:45:34,680 --> 02:45:37,760
Speaker 1: group is to like maintain like you know, maybe like

2697
02:45:37,840 --> 02:45:41,000
Speaker 1: maintain the differentiation of the individual. Yeah, to foster what

2698
02:45:41,160 --> 02:45:43,600
Speaker 1: makes the dividence is really good at being like their

2699
02:45:43,600 --> 02:45:46,120
Speaker 1: own person and give them the tools that can you

2700
02:45:46,160 --> 02:45:49,720
Speaker 1: can set that up. Yeah. I think like culturally we

2701
02:45:49,800 --> 02:45:54,039
Speaker 1: have like problems thinking about that because like the sort

2702
02:45:54,040 --> 02:45:57,039
Speaker 1: of American version of individuality has to do with like

2703
02:45:57,760 --> 02:45:59,560
Speaker 1: no, no no, no, you're you're an individual because you have

2704
02:45:59,600 --> 02:46:01,480
Speaker 1: no connect actions to anyone else. And it's like, well,

2705
02:46:01,760 --> 02:46:04,840
Speaker 1: this sucks. It is bad because and I kind of

2706
02:46:04,959 --> 02:46:07,879
Speaker 1: goes back to the whole spoon building a baby concept.

2707
02:46:09,240 --> 02:46:14,599
Speaker 1: I didn't think I would ever use that freeze individuals

2708
02:46:14,640 --> 02:46:23,760
Speaker 1: only individuals because their combination of influences are unique to them. Yeah, well,

2709
02:46:23,959 --> 02:46:25,440
Speaker 1: not just that. I mean obviously it's just as a

2710
02:46:25,480 --> 02:46:29,400
Speaker 1: component and I'll know a lot, but I think key

2711
02:46:29,440 --> 02:46:32,320
Speaker 1: aspect of it is that, you know, because we are

2712
02:46:32,959 --> 02:46:35,280
Speaker 1: raising the different environments around by different people, we have

2713
02:46:35,320 --> 02:46:38,160
Speaker 1: different experiences. That's what builds us up. You know, Like

2714
02:46:38,240 --> 02:46:40,000
Speaker 1: I can I can already name off the top of

2715
02:46:40,000 --> 02:46:42,880
Speaker 1: my head, like a bunch of like defining movements from

2716
02:46:42,879 --> 02:46:46,200
Speaker 1: my childhood, you know that basically changed my course, you know,

2717
02:46:46,280 --> 02:46:48,840
Speaker 1: like the one time I got cyber bullied, not basically

2718
02:46:48,879 --> 02:46:51,760
Speaker 1: like shifted my perspective and my approach the internet to

2719
02:46:51,800 --> 02:46:54,880
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. You know, it's like it really,

2720
02:46:56,560 --> 02:47:01,360
Speaker 1: I really can't imagine how someone could come away with

2721
02:47:01,400 --> 02:47:05,920
Speaker 1: the idea that an individual is just an individual on

2722
02:47:05,959 --> 02:47:08,039
Speaker 1: their own. Yeah, they just they just pop out and

2723
02:47:08,160 --> 02:47:11,400
Speaker 1: are that thing. Yeah, I mean yeah, because like a

2724
02:47:11,480 --> 02:47:15,000
Speaker 1: large portion of you was built up of previous you,

2725
02:47:15,320 --> 02:47:18,680
Speaker 1: and previously like exists, Like your previous existence is what

2726
02:47:19,120 --> 02:47:22,959
Speaker 1: makes a large portion of yourself. And like sure you

2727
02:47:22,959 --> 02:47:25,199
Speaker 1: can say you have a little bit of like ego

2728
02:47:25,320 --> 02:47:28,959
Speaker 1: from the start, like your actual self self that that

2729
02:47:29,200 --> 02:47:31,360
Speaker 1: you know, contributed to the way you interpret events, which

2730
02:47:31,400 --> 02:47:34,920
Speaker 1: then will in turn build your personality. But I think

2731
02:47:34,920 --> 02:47:37,680
Speaker 1: these things are not opposing. These things work in tandem.

2732
02:47:37,720 --> 02:47:41,240
Speaker 1: But yeah, yes, it is like the whole group Liven components.

2733
02:47:41,280 --> 02:47:43,800
Speaker 1: And also in that group li components, you notice and

2734
02:47:44,080 --> 02:47:47,440
Speaker 1: at one point in the book, um, one of the

2735
02:47:47,520 --> 02:47:52,320
Speaker 1: children like basically in passing mentions that you know, they

2736
02:47:52,360 --> 02:47:55,240
Speaker 1: don't want to go by a certain post soon because

2737
02:47:55,240 --> 02:47:57,879
Speaker 1: they amoud at them or whatever. And so they basically

2738
02:47:57,920 --> 02:48:01,119
Speaker 1: have that freedom to remove themselves from that situation and

2739
02:48:01,200 --> 02:48:05,560
Speaker 1: go on, um, sleep at another house or another space

2740
02:48:06,160 --> 02:48:09,840
Speaker 1: until that sort of situation is resolved. And I think

2741
02:48:09,920 --> 02:48:16,440
Speaker 1: that also would really be a crucial element of society,

2742
02:48:16,440 --> 02:48:19,240
Speaker 1: particularly for children having that freedom of association and freedom

2743
02:48:19,280 --> 02:48:25,680
Speaker 1: of movement, because imagine how many abusive situations could be

2744
02:48:25,920 --> 02:48:29,520
Speaker 1: avoided over him. Indeed, if children had the ability to

2745
02:48:29,560 --> 02:48:34,320
Speaker 1: come out of it. You know, we strict children of choice,

2746
02:48:35,040 --> 02:48:40,200
Speaker 1: and as it allows these sorts of dynamics to persist, Yeah,

2747
02:48:40,280 --> 02:48:43,520
Speaker 1: which then these to dynamics that persist in the next

2748
02:48:43,520 --> 02:48:46,440
Speaker 1: generation and so on and so on. It's this thing

2749
02:48:46,480 --> 02:48:49,280
Speaker 1: that's having a resurgence in the United States right now.

2750
02:48:49,280 --> 02:48:51,520
Speaker 1: And it is like at the core of all of

2751
02:48:51,560 --> 02:48:54,640
Speaker 1: the book banning in the anti trans legislation, which is

2752
02:48:54,680 --> 02:48:58,480
Speaker 1: this idea that like kids shouldn't have a choice because

2753
02:48:58,520 --> 02:49:01,600
Speaker 1: that would interfere with parents having absolute control over the

2754
02:49:01,640 --> 02:49:04,040
Speaker 1: life of their child, and then includes the control to like,

2755
02:49:04,480 --> 02:49:07,600
Speaker 1: if a child says I'm this or I'm that, the

2756
02:49:07,640 --> 02:49:12,520
Speaker 1: parent can say absolutely not. Yeah, exactly if you had

2757
02:49:12,560 --> 02:49:15,959
Speaker 1: like this U if you sort of like too with

2758
02:49:16,120 --> 02:49:19,400
Speaker 1: like someone from from the past or someone who lives

2759
02:49:19,440 --> 02:49:22,600
Speaker 1: in like a corpative reading arrangement, that the pear and

2760
02:49:22,840 --> 02:49:26,160
Speaker 1: the child is the pearance property entirely, it would look

2761
02:49:26,160 --> 02:49:29,320
Speaker 1: at you like real funny because the child is part

2762
02:49:29,320 --> 02:49:32,520
Speaker 1: of the community, doesn't belong to anyone, you know, if

2763
02:49:32,560 --> 02:49:34,560
Speaker 1: it belongs to anything. It just belongs to the community

2764
02:49:34,879 --> 02:49:43,119
Speaker 1: as a who as as we all do. Yeah. But yeah,

2765
02:49:43,200 --> 02:49:45,640
Speaker 1: another element I think that I find UM, I find

2766
02:49:45,680 --> 02:49:51,959
Speaker 1: really interesting and the way that probably society operates is that.

2767
02:49:53,000 --> 02:49:57,359
Speaker 1: And I guess in comparison to Brief New World. Unlike

2768
02:49:58,000 --> 02:50:02,119
Speaker 1: in Brief New World where true so use like UM

2769
02:50:02,760 --> 02:50:06,440
Speaker 1: likes and like all drugs are used for pacification and

2770
02:50:06,640 --> 02:50:10,840
Speaker 1: control and self medication, that kind of thing sort of

2771
02:50:10,920 --> 02:50:15,200
Speaker 1: like chill you out and prevent you from basically going

2772
02:50:15,240 --> 02:50:20,520
Speaker 1: mad in a mad society. UM in parlor, you know,

2773
02:50:20,640 --> 02:50:24,440
Speaker 1: drunk is used for bonding and for enlightenment and for

2774
02:50:25,920 --> 02:50:29,680
Speaker 1: social connection and social cohesion. And it is really really

2775
02:50:29,760 --> 02:50:34,320
Speaker 1: usting that that he changes what drugs do in his books,

2776
02:50:34,360 --> 02:50:40,240
Speaker 1: like after he starts doing them. Yeah, exactly, exactly, Yeah,

2777
02:50:40,520 --> 02:50:43,000
Speaker 1: And I actually don't know, you know, I used to

2778
02:50:43,040 --> 02:50:46,280
Speaker 1: have because I I had the opposite arc with with drugs,

2779
02:50:46,320 --> 02:50:49,600
Speaker 1: where I started doing them when I was very young

2780
02:50:49,760 --> 02:50:52,400
Speaker 1: and had the belief that like they were kind of

2781
02:50:52,440 --> 02:50:55,840
Speaker 1: inherently this mind opening tool that could be used to

2782
02:50:55,920 --> 02:51:01,039
Speaker 1: expand the borders of reality within human beings, and as

2783
02:51:01,040 --> 02:51:03,440
Speaker 1: an adult, um in part through some of the research

2784
02:51:03,480 --> 02:51:06,000
Speaker 1: I've done on the far right, come to understand like, no,

2785
02:51:06,160 --> 02:51:09,240
Speaker 1: you can also use them to reinforce the very limited,

2786
02:51:09,360 --> 02:51:11,920
Speaker 1: terrible things you already believe. And there are folks who

2787
02:51:11,920 --> 02:51:14,240
Speaker 1: do that quite effectively, like that sort of appeel you

2788
02:51:14,600 --> 02:51:19,480
Speaker 1: esotericism kind of Yeah, I don't know if I just

2789
02:51:19,520 --> 02:51:22,200
Speaker 1: made up that too. I like I like that term.

2790
02:51:22,400 --> 02:51:25,840
Speaker 1: It's it's just thinking of it's an accurate it's an

2791
02:51:25,840 --> 02:51:29,240
Speaker 1: accurate term to describe the thing we're talking about. I'm

2792
02:51:29,280 --> 02:51:34,240
Speaker 1: taking it Okay, Well, yeah, yeah, I mean that that's

2793
02:51:34,240 --> 02:51:38,440
Speaker 1: absolutely correct, because I mean, yeah, like those sort of

2794
02:51:38,520 --> 02:51:42,280
Speaker 1: psycho psychedelic substances and stuff, Yeah, they can open your mind,

2795
02:51:42,400 --> 02:51:46,560
Speaker 1: but there are also they're ultimately drawing from your mind,

2796
02:51:47,440 --> 02:51:50,599
Speaker 1: drawing from your past experiences and beliefs in some capacity.

2797
02:51:50,840 --> 02:51:54,280
Speaker 1: The way I always describe it is that like psychedelics

2798
02:51:54,360 --> 02:51:56,880
Speaker 1: are an accelerant to the fire that you've already built,

2799
02:51:57,320 --> 02:51:59,240
Speaker 1: and they can make it flare up, and it can

2800
02:51:59,280 --> 02:52:02,080
Speaker 1: be really cool and awesome, and it can flare up

2801
02:52:02,120 --> 02:52:04,960
Speaker 1: and be utterly terrified and be like oh no, no, no, no, no,

2802
02:52:04,959 --> 02:52:08,680
Speaker 1: no no, but it's always kind of amplifying the things

2803
02:52:08,720 --> 02:52:13,439
Speaker 1: that are you've already built through like the kindling of yourself. Yeah.

2804
02:52:13,680 --> 02:52:18,080
Speaker 1: It Psychedelics do not create things um within you, but

2805
02:52:18,200 --> 02:52:21,800
Speaker 1: they can lead you to realize things you wouldn't already realize,

2806
02:52:21,879 --> 02:52:25,240
Speaker 1: or they can lead you to reinforce things that you're

2807
02:52:25,280 --> 02:52:27,160
Speaker 1: already doing. And it kind of depends on what you

2808
02:52:27,200 --> 02:52:29,200
Speaker 1: go into it with. It's like you know, Leary said,

2809
02:52:29,240 --> 02:52:31,400
Speaker 1: it's I think it was Leary set setting in dose,

2810
02:52:31,560 --> 02:52:34,520
Speaker 1: and like your mind set is one of the most

2811
02:52:34,560 --> 02:52:37,160
Speaker 1: important things for what's actually going to happen when you

2812
02:52:37,400 --> 02:52:43,840
Speaker 1: when you take psychedelics. Yeah, and if you're a Nazi,

2813
02:52:44,440 --> 02:52:47,920
Speaker 1: you can get better being a Nazi from taking that

2814
02:52:48,160 --> 02:52:51,080
Speaker 1: you're a Nazi. You're gonna see Hitler pull up on, Yes,

2815
02:52:51,160 --> 02:52:54,080
Speaker 1: my son, continue the good work. That's That's the thing

2816
02:52:54,080 --> 02:52:55,879
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't understand when I've tried to,

2817
02:52:55,920 --> 02:52:57,360
Speaker 1: like when I tried to talk to people who are

2818
02:52:57,400 --> 02:53:00,240
Speaker 1: like really obviously like pro psychedelics and like, yeah, they're

2819
02:53:00,280 --> 02:53:02,320
Speaker 1: so like freeing they can think about new ways, And

2820
02:53:02,320 --> 02:53:04,920
Speaker 1: then I explained to them there's like, well this isn't

2821
02:53:04,959 --> 02:53:07,519
Speaker 1: this is an easy segue. But if somehow the conversation

2822
02:53:07,520 --> 02:53:09,080
Speaker 1: goes to the point to be talking about all the

2823
02:53:09,160 --> 02:53:12,280
Speaker 1: Nazis who do psychedelics and and then like do like

2824
02:53:12,360 --> 02:53:17,120
Speaker 1: weird esoteric rituals while doing like psycho drugs, they can

2825
02:53:17,200 --> 02:53:21,240
Speaker 1: confuse these people because like how could you be a Nazi? Well,

2826
02:53:21,360 --> 02:53:23,920
Speaker 1: you're you know, in that mindset, and like, well, it's

2827
02:53:23,920 --> 02:53:25,680
Speaker 1: actually for all of you for all these reasons that

2828
02:53:25,720 --> 02:53:30,879
Speaker 1: we've discussed. It can actually assist within that like like fantastical,

2829
02:53:31,040 --> 02:53:34,560
Speaker 1: genocidal conspiratorial thinking. It can really can really give that

2830
02:53:34,640 --> 02:53:36,800
Speaker 1: a lot, a lot of credence in someone's brains, because

2831
02:53:37,200 --> 02:53:39,520
Speaker 1: especially if you've spoken to someone who is taking psycho

2832
02:53:39,520 --> 02:53:42,160
Speaker 1: that like and I've had a specific kind of experience,

2833
02:53:42,200 --> 02:53:44,640
Speaker 1: you can't talk them all to that experience. Yeah, as

2834
02:53:44,640 --> 02:53:47,240
Speaker 1: far as they consume that is, that is solidified in

2835
02:53:47,240 --> 02:53:50,039
Speaker 1: the mind. You know, this is reality. I just had

2836
02:53:50,040 --> 02:53:55,879
Speaker 1: a glimpse that the reality kind of thing, you know. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah,

2837
02:53:55,920 --> 02:53:57,440
Speaker 1: It's one of those like if you want, if you

2838
02:53:57,480 --> 02:54:01,879
Speaker 1: want an illustration of how psychedelics do not work the

2839
02:54:01,879 --> 02:54:05,480
Speaker 1: way some people claim, just make a note of the

2840
02:54:05,520 --> 02:54:08,880
Speaker 1: fact that at every street fight between fascists and anti

2841
02:54:08,879 --> 02:54:13,200
Speaker 1: fascists in Portland, both sides, every single person had fucking

2842
02:54:13,200 --> 02:54:18,600
Speaker 1: weed on them, like the fucking the far right like

2843
02:54:18,720 --> 02:54:22,120
Speaker 1: smoking pot as much as everybody else. Um, they just

2844
02:54:22,160 --> 02:54:29,240
Speaker 1: also do cocaine. Where is where is Antifa does? Yeah? Yeah,

2845
02:54:29,280 --> 02:54:32,879
Speaker 1: Antifa does ketamine. The Proud Boys do cocaine, and they

2846
02:54:32,920 --> 02:54:37,160
Speaker 1: both have everybody's got joints and both people and people

2847
02:54:37,200 --> 02:54:40,800
Speaker 1: on both sides have dropped acid and taken shrimps. Yeah

2848
02:54:40,959 --> 02:54:43,080
Speaker 1: I can. I can say this from a point of

2849
02:54:43,160 --> 02:54:46,080
Speaker 1: journalistic certainty because during one of the rallies where there

2850
02:54:46,160 --> 02:54:49,240
Speaker 1: was a permitted event at the Federal Park, the police

2851
02:54:49,240 --> 02:54:52,360
Speaker 1: were there and telling people they could not take weed

2852
02:54:52,440 --> 02:54:55,600
Speaker 1: onto the federal park because it was federally illegal, and

2853
02:54:56,280 --> 02:55:00,680
Speaker 1: every like both sides. People were like, alright, shit, Michael,

2854
02:55:00,720 --> 02:55:03,000
Speaker 1: turning back because they couldn't walk on with the weed

2855
02:55:03,040 --> 02:55:06,240
Speaker 1: in their pockets. That's gonna open up a whole kind

2856
02:55:06,240 --> 02:55:08,960
Speaker 1: of room to me, because m I don't know if

2857
02:55:08,959 --> 02:55:10,920
Speaker 1: you all saw this tweet that I put out recently,

2858
02:55:11,840 --> 02:55:17,720
Speaker 1: like there's still this resistance to drugs and to particularly

2859
02:55:17,760 --> 02:55:20,600
Speaker 1: to like cannabis. And you would think that, you know,

2860
02:55:20,680 --> 02:55:27,760
Speaker 1: after decades of research and decades of understanding and really decades,

2861
02:55:27,959 --> 02:55:32,360
Speaker 1: not even decades, centuries of its use in various you know,

2862
02:55:32,400 --> 02:55:36,240
Speaker 1: religious and spiritual practices that by now you know, in

2863
02:55:36,280 --> 02:55:39,720
Speaker 1: a post colonial country would reach the point where, you know,

2864
02:55:40,480 --> 02:55:47,000
Speaker 1: we let it go and we determinalize it. But although

2865
02:55:47,040 --> 02:55:49,840
Speaker 1: the we're kind of in the process of it, we

2866
02:55:49,920 --> 02:55:53,560
Speaker 1: still have this situation where the police are like constantly

2867
02:55:54,840 --> 02:55:58,520
Speaker 1: burning down like fields of cannabis. Like they pull up

2868
02:55:58,560 --> 02:56:02,280
Speaker 1: and they're like, we just seized and burned down like

2869
02:56:03,080 --> 02:56:07,520
Speaker 1: one million dollars worth of cannabis and arrested this. The

2870
02:56:07,520 --> 02:56:15,720
Speaker 1: others like, why are we still at this point where um,

2871
02:56:15,959 --> 02:56:22,720
Speaker 1: basic basic like plants and herbs and medicines and whatnot

2872
02:56:22,800 --> 02:56:27,000
Speaker 1: are still here saying this stigma. It's not grounded in

2873
02:56:27,000 --> 02:56:32,240
Speaker 1: any sort of reality or logic. You know, it's just colonially.

2874
02:56:32,240 --> 02:56:38,000
Speaker 1: You're a prejudice. But that was brief aside. Yeah, yeah,

2875
02:56:38,520 --> 02:56:41,640
Speaker 1: I the only think I have much left to sea,

2876
02:56:42,400 --> 02:56:47,800
Speaker 1: boat island and brief New World. Well, you know, listeners,

2877
02:56:47,959 --> 02:56:51,480
Speaker 1: go home, put on some Hitler speeches, drop some absolutely

2878
02:56:51,800 --> 02:56:56,080
Speaker 1: absolutely not. That is the worst idea. Do not do that,

2879
02:56:56,480 --> 02:57:01,600
Speaker 1: Go to the woods, go do lest literally anything else

2880
02:57:01,760 --> 02:57:06,000
Speaker 1: besides that specific thing. It's that specific thing that is different.

2881
02:57:06,040 --> 02:57:10,039
Speaker 1: Different people can can disagree like that is like one

2882
02:57:10,080 --> 02:57:11,800
Speaker 1: of the worst things to do to your own brain

2883
02:57:11,800 --> 02:57:15,879
Speaker 1: and psyche. Absolutely not. Yeah, just do whatever, whether literally

2884
02:57:15,920 --> 02:57:20,120
Speaker 1: anything else. Watch Star Trek, put on put on off

2885
02:57:20,160 --> 02:57:22,040
Speaker 1: the air. I have. I've watched a lot of Star

2886
02:57:22,120 --> 02:57:24,920
Speaker 1: Trek while tripping. There's there's so many better things to

2887
02:57:24,959 --> 02:57:30,199
Speaker 1: do that that thing you've said. Mm hm, go watch

2888
02:57:30,240 --> 02:57:34,640
Speaker 1: the movie Conspiracy starring Kenneth brand Of a shod of mescal.

2889
02:57:35,280 --> 02:57:39,440
Speaker 1: That could be funny. They don't even know what mascalind

2890
02:57:39,560 --> 02:57:45,200
Speaker 1: is neither. Instructions. Do not compute if if acid made

2891
02:57:45,280 --> 02:57:50,560
Speaker 1: time different. What. Yeah, that's kind of mescaline. I mean,

2892
02:57:50,800 --> 02:57:55,680
Speaker 1: mescaline is like the the active thing inside pat. Yeah,

2893
02:57:56,080 --> 02:57:59,560
Speaker 1: mescalin is is a psychedelic the most intense time dilation

2894
02:57:59,600 --> 02:58:01,960
Speaker 1: I've ever experienced, where like you will feel like weeks

2895
02:58:01,959 --> 02:58:05,760
Speaker 1: have passed and it's been like seven hours. Um, it's

2896
02:58:05,800 --> 02:58:09,440
Speaker 1: pretty dope. I definitely recommend mescal and everybody go take

2897
02:58:09,440 --> 02:58:15,960
Speaker 1: mescal in even where Um, well you if you, if you,

2898
02:58:16,680 --> 02:58:19,080
Speaker 1: there is a way to get the cacti, which are

2899
02:58:19,160 --> 02:58:21,560
Speaker 1: legal pretty much everywhere because they're just cactuses and a

2900
02:58:21,600 --> 02:58:24,680
Speaker 1: lot of people use them decoratively, and then using a

2901
02:58:26,000 --> 02:58:28,280
Speaker 1: what do you call the pressure cooker, you can you

2902
02:58:28,320 --> 02:58:30,720
Speaker 1: can get the mescal and out of the cacti. I've

2903
02:58:30,760 --> 02:58:32,760
Speaker 1: known people who have done it. I have not personally

2904
02:58:32,800 --> 02:58:34,920
Speaker 1: done it. Obviously, that would that would that would be

2905
02:58:34,920 --> 02:58:37,640
Speaker 1: a crime. Never criminals, we would never we would never

2906
02:58:37,680 --> 02:58:40,959
Speaker 1: advocate that. Yeah, But but there are ways too. There

2907
02:58:40,959 --> 02:58:43,920
Speaker 1: are ways that like a person with minimal resources can

2908
02:58:43,959 --> 02:58:47,359
Speaker 1: get mescal and out of out of the right cactus.

2909
02:58:47,560 --> 02:58:51,520
Speaker 1: And people have done it, you know, So there's the

2910
02:58:51,520 --> 02:59:04,080
Speaker 1: criminals have done bad people. There's this anyway. Yeah, alright,

2911
02:59:04,120 --> 02:59:07,040
Speaker 1: Saint Andrew, that was awesome. I'm gonna go to read

2912
02:59:07,040 --> 02:59:10,800
Speaker 1: Island now. Um, it's a good I haven't read this.

2913
02:59:11,240 --> 02:59:13,760
Speaker 1: I would write bummed. I guess at the end of this,

2914
02:59:14,000 --> 02:59:18,680
Speaker 1: I am kind of bummed that as as imaginative a

2915
02:59:18,720 --> 02:59:22,760
Speaker 1: guy as he was, his this was his final book. Well,

2916
02:59:22,760 --> 02:59:24,959
Speaker 1: in his utopian story had to end with it being

2917
02:59:25,200 --> 02:59:30,800
Speaker 1: crushed essentially by industrial expansion. Yeah, and like co option,

2918
02:59:30,840 --> 02:59:33,160
Speaker 1: I mean like it is it is, it is interesting. Yeah,

2919
02:59:33,200 --> 02:59:35,480
Speaker 1: this this was his final book. This was like his

2920
02:59:35,640 --> 02:59:40,200
Speaker 1: like send off in like in a way that's that's

2921
02:59:40,200 --> 02:59:43,680
Speaker 1: an interesting component, right because like in Ireland yet it's

2922
02:59:43,760 --> 02:59:48,240
Speaker 1: like the utopian society, but there is a king, yeah,

2923
02:59:48,600 --> 02:59:53,200
Speaker 1: and a queen mother, but not they don't have like

2924
02:59:54,480 --> 02:59:57,040
Speaker 1: the kind of power that you know we were typically

2925
02:59:57,920 --> 03:00:01,800
Speaker 1: um be still upon king's queen mothers, you know, yea

2926
03:00:01,879 --> 03:00:05,040
Speaker 1: still they're still able to destroy the society ultimately by

2927
03:00:05,080 --> 03:00:09,400
Speaker 1: collaborating with the military dictate to enable and the industrialist

2928
03:00:09,680 --> 03:00:14,640
Speaker 1: oil guy. But I mean they are not really that

2929
03:00:14,720 --> 03:00:16,680
Speaker 1: involved in the day to be run into their society,

2930
03:00:16,680 --> 03:00:21,320
Speaker 1: you know, like Polo would be the same with without them.

2931
03:00:21,800 --> 03:00:25,160
Speaker 1: And interestingly, the reason they were taking parts in the

2932
03:00:25,240 --> 03:00:29,080
Speaker 1: destruction upon the society is because they were educated in

2933
03:00:29,120 --> 03:00:35,080
Speaker 1: Europe by Christians and then went back to Pabo. Yeah,

2934
03:00:35,440 --> 03:00:38,280
Speaker 1: it's interesting because he's kind of playing with it. Sounds

2935
03:00:38,320 --> 03:00:41,720
Speaker 1: like the same thing Token was, because like Jared Token,

2936
03:00:42,280 --> 03:00:44,200
Speaker 1: at the end of his life kind of identified himself

2937
03:00:44,200 --> 03:00:46,879
Speaker 1: as like this weird sort of monarchist anarchist where he

2938
03:00:46,920 --> 03:00:50,520
Speaker 1: wanted there to be that the ideal society was one

2939
03:00:50,640 --> 03:00:53,360
Speaker 1: in which people, you know, there was people could not

2940
03:00:53,440 --> 03:00:57,119
Speaker 1: exercise power over each other, but there was a little hierarchy,

2941
03:00:57,160 --> 03:00:59,480
Speaker 1: and that you had a king who couldn't actually do anything,

2942
03:00:59,520 --> 03:01:03,840
Speaker 1: who's purpose was to act as a figurehead. Um. And

2943
03:01:03,959 --> 03:01:06,440
Speaker 1: I I don't entirely get what he was going through here.

2944
03:01:06,480 --> 03:01:08,360
Speaker 1: He wrote a lot on the subject himself, and it's

2945
03:01:08,400 --> 03:01:11,039
Speaker 1: interesting that Huxley is kind of playing with the same idea,

2946
03:01:11,160 --> 03:01:14,160
Speaker 1: but is is obviously being like, well, this is a

2947
03:01:14,200 --> 03:01:18,680
Speaker 1: bad idea. You know, it could only work for so long, Um, YadA, YadA.

2948
03:01:18,720 --> 03:01:21,200
Speaker 1: I don't know. I find that compelling. Again, I want

2949
03:01:21,240 --> 03:01:23,240
Speaker 1: to read this, and that's something I may dig into more.

2950
03:01:23,360 --> 03:01:26,520
Speaker 1: Is kind of like how Token conceived of the ideal

2951
03:01:26,600 --> 03:01:31,480
Speaker 1: sort of monarchy versus how how Huxley was thinking about it.

2952
03:01:31,480 --> 03:01:36,119
Speaker 1: I think that's kind of interesting. Yeah, well that's gonna

2953
03:01:36,120 --> 03:01:39,640
Speaker 1: do it for us here and it could happen here. Uh,

2954
03:01:39,800 --> 03:01:46,800
Speaker 1: Garrison tour dot com. No to sponsored dot com. No,

2955
03:01:47,040 --> 03:01:52,039
Speaker 1: just drop some acid and Google Hitler. Okay again, Like, seriously,

2956
03:01:52,120 --> 03:01:55,240
Speaker 1: don't don't don't literally do anything else. Don't do that.

2957
03:01:56,600 --> 03:02:00,800
Speaker 1: The woods are lovely, the beach is magnificent. Talk to

2958
03:02:00,840 --> 03:02:04,840
Speaker 1: the ocean. It's so much mountain Google mountain unless yeah,

2959
03:02:04,920 --> 03:02:09,480
Speaker 1: like we could go in or something. Yeah, yeah, go

2960
03:02:09,560 --> 03:02:12,440
Speaker 1: to a to have go to a comic con. Uh

2961
03:02:12,680 --> 03:02:16,960
Speaker 1: literally my suggestions. I will talk about that experience at

2962
03:02:16,959 --> 03:02:28,400
Speaker 1: a later date. All right, that is that is the show. Hey,

2963
03:02:28,480 --> 03:02:31,600
Speaker 1: we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from

2964
03:02:31,600 --> 03:02:33,959
Speaker 1: now until the heat death of the universe. It could

2965
03:02:33,959 --> 03:02:36,320
Speaker 1: Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For

2966
03:02:36,400 --> 03:02:39,120
Speaker 1: more podcasts from cool zone Media, visit our website cool

2967
03:02:39,200 --> 03:02:41,160
Speaker 1: zone media dot com, or check us out on the

2968
03:02:41,200 --> 03:02:43,920
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

2969
03:02:43,920 --> 03:02:46,840
Speaker 1: to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen here,

2970
03:02:46,920 --> 03:02:50,320
Speaker 1: updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources.

2971
03:02:50,560 --> 03:02:53,560
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Hey everyone. Last year I published my

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