WEBVTT - Off-Earth ethics (featuring Erika Nesvold) 0:00:05.960 --> 0:00:10.200 The year is nineteen seventy. Mario Eskimia had been working 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:13.800 with Donald Lovitt, otherwise known as Porky, in the Arctic 0:00:13.880 --> 0:00:17.120 for over a month, and he was pretty fed up 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:20.640 with Porky at this point. Porky had the bad habit 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:25.440 of getting drunk and wielding butcher cleavers while stealing his 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:29.240 crewmate's wine, clearly behavior that would be frowned upon in 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:33.080 just about any culture. So this had happened yet again, 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:36.200 and Eskima got all fired up and grabbed his rifle 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:40.280 and went to confront Porky. Porky was indeed enjoying a 0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:43.320 cocktail with the stolen wine, and he was enjoying that 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:46.800 cocktail with the station manager, a man named Benny Lightsey. 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:51.760 Eskimia was arguing with Lightsee about what should be done 0:00:51.800 --> 0:00:55.760 about the whole Porky situation when his rifle accidentally went. 0:00:55.680 --> 0:00:56.920 Off, killing Lights. 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:00.520 This actually ended up becoming a fairly famous case in 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:03.960 the world of law because it provided some precedent for 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:08.160 what happens when you're outside of the jurisdiction of other nations. 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:10.880 So what happens when you're on a mobile piece of 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:13.960 ice in the Arctic Ocean what court do you get 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:16.960 tried in? And who decides what happens? Well, in this case, 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:20.440 it was fairly straightforward because both men were United States citizens, 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:23.520 so the case was tried in the US and Eskimia 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:27.920 was ultimately acquitted. What happens if you have a Martian 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:32.760 settlement and Mario Eskimia is from the United States, for example, 0:01:32.800 --> 0:01:35.800 and Benny Lightsey is from Russia for example? 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:37.800 What happens on Mars? 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:41.240 Who oversees the court case, who decides what the punishment 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:43.840 should be, and what punishment is fair in a harsh 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:48.200 environment millions of miles from the home planet. Well to 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:51.040 answer some of these questions today, we're talking to doctor 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:55.360 Erica Nesvold. Her book Off Earth tackles questions about law, 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:57.720 social justice, and ethics in space. 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:01.280 Welcome to Daniel and kelly Is Extraordinary Universe. 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:18.639 Hi. I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I'm excited 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:21.440 for other people to go into space. And welcome to 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:24.840 the podcast Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe. 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:28.760 I'm Kelly Wiener Smith. I'm a parasitologist, and I think 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:30.720 it would be great for other people to settle space, 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:37.280 depending on how it gets done, I have qualifications. 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:39.200 And so on today's episode, we're going to be digging 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:41.760 into the details of what questions we have to ask 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:43.840 before we settle space and how we handle it once 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:46.320 we get there, including tricky questions like who gets to 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:49.280 make space law on what happens when you break it, 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:52.720 which makes me wonder, Kelly. Down here on Earth, people 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:56.960 are always breaking laws, you know, jaywalking or parking illegally 0:02:57.000 --> 0:03:00.200 or whatever. So my questioning to you today is, what 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:02.640 is the most serious law you've ever broken? 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:03.160 Oh? 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:06.360 Wow, on air here, not under oath, but on air. 0:03:06.680 --> 0:03:08.480 That's right, that's right. Well, you know, I feel like 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:10.160 those things are the same. I have to be honest. 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:13.720 I think that the most trouble I almost got in 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:18.360 it was Thanksgiving and my three year old had been 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:21.359 screaming in the car on the ride home from Ohio 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:26.040 in the slushy snow rain combo for like hours, like 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:29.320 literally hours, and I went from a sixty five to 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:32.800 a forty five zone and I didn't realize I had 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:34.440 gone from a sixty five to a forty five zone. 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:36.040 I didn't see the forty five sign because I had 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:38.480 no brain lift at that point. And if you go 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:42.120 over twenty then you get your license taken away. 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:42.920 Wow. 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:46.480 So the police officer he walked up to the car 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:48.720 and he heard the screaming and he went. 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:52.400 Oh, like, maybe he's also a parent. 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:54.440 And all I know is that the ticket said I 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:57.400 had gone nineteen over oh, which meant I got to 0:03:57.440 --> 0:04:00.880 keep my license. And I was more care about driving 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:04.680 when my kiddo was screaming after that. So basically I 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:08.200 am a whimp and I have not done too many dangerous, scary, 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:09.680 illegal things in my lifetime. 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:11.120 But what about you? Okay, of course it's going to 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:13.880 be your turn now, No. 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:15.360 I need to fall up on your story. Does that 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:17.960 mean that you can commit any felony you want? But 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:20.680 if there's a screaming baby, they'll downgrade it to a misdemeanor. 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:24.000 They're like murder one, No, but her kid was crying, 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:25.560 so we'll just call it manslaughter. 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:29.960 You know, I haven't done the appropriate experimental like design 0:04:30.080 --> 0:04:32.320 to test that hypothesis. I mean I can imagine it 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:35.320 going the other way. Sometimes baby screaming just make people angry. 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:37.560 I could imagine, you know, somebody being like, no, I 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:39.120 want to write you a ticket for an extra five 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:42.400 miles an hour. Because I'm just not happy it's hearing 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:44.880 this baby screaming. So I wouldn't want to risk it. 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:48.239 But what do you think, Well, I've planned on that. Actually, 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:50.200 maybe the greatest crime I've committed that I haven't been 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:53.840 caught for is importing illegal cheeses. You know, we used 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:56.160 to go back and forth discern all the time when 0:04:56.200 --> 0:04:58.440 our kids were young, and we would come back from 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:00.880 friends and they'd be our favorite cheeses and we'd want 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:02.160 to have them, and so we've packed them in our 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:05.160 suitcase even though they're illegal to import. And our plan 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:07.320 was always if we get searched, you know, just rely 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:11.120 on our toddlers to cry and scream and to get 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:13.080 us out of it. So I'm glad to hear that 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:15.400 works sometimes. That's great what I forgot. 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:17.560 I also committed dairy related crime. 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:18.440 Wow. 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:21.920 I was in Norway during the butter shortage that happened 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:23.880 a while ago. It was like some import roles and 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:26.200 there wasn't enough butter, and so me and the folks 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:28.680 that I was working with, we snuck across the border 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:31.280 to Sweden and bought a bunch of butter and smuggled 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:34.440 it back across for our dinner. I also have engaged 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:35.719 in dairy related crimes. 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:38.160 I did not realize today's podcast was going to be 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:40.760 about international dairy smuggling, but there we go. 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:43.359 There you go. It may or may not come up again, 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:45.080 or maybe that was just. 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:47.200 Us And maybe in the future of folks in space 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:50.240 settlements are going to be smuggling cheeses and butters from 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:51.560 one habitat to another. 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:53.840 Those are going to be some stinky cheeses if you're 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:55.280 taking them from Earth and they've got a six month 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:58.400 transit though, but some people are into that. But these 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:01.919 are some sort of complicated situations. If somebody is committing 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:04.520 crimes on Mars, what's the right court for that to 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:06.240 be tried in? And what happens if you have people 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:09.080 from different countries even now, like it's complicated when you 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:11.720 have people committing crimes against one another and they're from 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:14.680 different countries, especially if they're in a place like Antarctica 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:17.320 that's supposed to, you know, belong to no nation. But 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:20.559 that's just the tip of the ethical iceberg for stuff 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:22.720 that needs to get dealt with. And so today we've 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:25.160 got this amazing guest who can talk about loads of 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:28.200 different ethical problems associated with why we go to space, 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:29.720 how many people we send to space. 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:31.680 There's just a lot to think about. 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:34.000 That's right, and so these are really fun questions that 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:36.040 we do need to think about before we build out 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:39.640 humanity's future into space. But before we hear from an 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:42.280 expert who's thought a lot about this and written an 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:45.360 excellent book on the topic. We were curious what tricky topics 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:48.240 the person on the street anticipated we might run into 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:49.920 when we decide to settle space. 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:53.000 I think the ethical problems of all the bodies were 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:58.480 going to harm exposing to space environments. I think probably 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:01.800 the ethics of international law are going to be really bad. 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:05.440 They're already bad on the oceans. So space is just 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:09.120 space ocean, but worse. I mean, there's just the ongoing 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:11.920 problem which is not new to space, but space worse 0:07:12.520 --> 0:07:16.200 where we take actions that have huge implications for like 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:20.640 way later human generations, you know, and we're not always 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:23.760 doing right by people to generations down the road, much 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:24.800 less one hundred. 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:25.480 Generations down the road. 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:27.600 And so I would really hope that we're thinking at 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:29.720 least one hundred gen down the road when we do 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:30.400 space stuff. 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:34.040 The allocation of resources, who do. 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:37.160 You say first, if there's a disaster, be it like 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:40.920 during Space Traveler, once you actually land on the planet 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:44.760 they're aiming for, Like, do you prioritize your engineers and 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:46.960 scientists to people who can actually pet things running? 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:49.680 Do you protire to your children the women who you 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:53.160 plan to have children with, you know? Do you just 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:57.520 draw straws and help for the best? Another one, what 0:07:57.560 --> 0:07:59.560 do you do if you run into any indigenous people 0:07:59.920 --> 0:08:03.600 you get there? And also when do people become what 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:05.200 we consider indigenous? 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:07.960 You know, like if somebody landed on the planet fifty 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:10.800 or one hundred years before, did they have a bare 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:15.080 claim despite whatever government have decleared on the way there? 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:16.840 The value of. 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:23.520 Human lives and the cost benefits out of exploring space. 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:28.480 One I think has to do with economic class, and 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:32.439 I think the disparity between poor and rich, for example, 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:36.680 would be even greater than it is based on decisions 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:40.920 of who gets to settle in these new colonies. Would 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:44.480 it be considered a consequence in sending the poor out 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:47.440 there or would it be considered a benefit and the 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:49.880 rich would go out there? Either way, I think would 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:54.439 disparity would be great and huge. I also think it 0:08:54.480 --> 0:09:02.400 would cause political tensions as well between countries over who 0:09:02.480 --> 0:09:07.480 gets to colonize these new areas in space. 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:09.800 So, Kelly, who did you ask these questions of? 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:13.160 I asked these questions of friends of mine on Facebook? 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:15.720 I asked who wants to answer some anonymous questions for me? 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:17.760 And then I texted them the question and they left 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:18.920 me a voicemail with the answer. 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:21.160 Definitely a scientific sample for sure. 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:25.440 Yeah, yeah, these are all Kelly's social network answers. None 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:28.440 of them cited my book though, so they can't be 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:30.920 that quote. But no, no, no, I thought these were 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:33.200 all great and interesting answers. 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:33.920 What did you think? 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:36.360 Yeah? I think these are pretty well informed. They would 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:39.080 be better informed if they'd read your excellent book, of course, 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:41.079 but they give us a good preview for what kind 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:43.360 of things people are thinking about, what kind of tricky 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:46.840 questions there are when humanity decides to move into the stars. 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:49.720 And if you would like us to expand out past 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:52.520 Kelly's social network, please feel free to get in touch 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:55.960 with us at questions at danielant Kelly dot org. 0:09:56.320 --> 0:09:58.599 We'll send you the questions for future episodes, and you 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:00.839 can hear your voice on the We. 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:02.880 Would love to have your voice featured on the show. 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:06.400 All right, so, without further ado, show, we invite Erica 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:07.040 onto the show. 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:09.080 Let's do it all right, here we go. 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:15.480 On today's show, we have doctor Erica Nesvold. She is 0:10:15.520 --> 0:10:19.400 an astrophysicist and a developer for Universe Sandbox, which she 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:24.679 calls astronomy educational software masquerading as a video game I'm in. 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:25.680 She made a. 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:28.760 Podcast called Making New Worlds where she interviewed a bunch 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:31.680 of experts from a variety of different backgrounds about questions 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:35.400 related to ethics and justice in space, and expanded those 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:39.040 conversations into a book called Off Earth Ethical Questions and 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:43.480 Quandaries for Living in Outer Space. She also, because apparently 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:46.720 she can do everything, co founded a nonprofit called the 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:50.520 Just Space Alliance, which advocates for a more inclusive and 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:53.520 ethical future in space while also striving to make the 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:56.200 world more just and equitable back here on Earth today. 0:10:56.720 --> 0:10:57.480 Thanks for being on. 0:10:57.400 --> 0:10:59.720 The show, Erica, Thank you for having me. 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:02.080 It's good to be chatting with you again. We've met 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:06.040 irl once, which was super fun. It was fun, Yes, 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:09.000 talking about how people should maybe take birth in space 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:10.840 a little bit more seriously, or that was the part 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:12.440 that I remembered most strongly. 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:13.040 That's right. 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:16.640 Okay, So let's start with ethics around going to space 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:19.880 at all. So when I was getting involved in this literature, 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:22.320 I found a lot of arguments that weren't super convincing. 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:24.440 So let's start with some of the arguments that you 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:26.440 think are least convincing, and then work our way up 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:28.480 to the argument that you think is the most convincing 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:29.960 for why we should be settling space. 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:32.040 Yeah, I mean this is sort of where I got 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:34.920 into these questions in the first place. I always been 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:36.960 a big fan of space and even a big fan 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:40.000 of human space expiation and settlement, and so I've been 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:44.480 sort of steeped in these space settlement advocacy rhetoric since 0:11:44.520 --> 0:11:46.839 I was a kid. And then I started really digging 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:48.800 into it and thinking about whether I agree with all 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:51.600 of these arguments, and I started off my book really 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:54.360 digging into them because they come in a few different flavors. 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:57.480 There's the people who say that we need to go 0:11:57.520 --> 0:11:59.240 to space so that we don't have all of our 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:01.760 eggs in one back. We need to become a multiplanetary 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:05.360 species because our planet where we all live is potentially 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:08.200 a weak point. It's fragile. We've seen species get wiped 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:13.080 out here before through the dinosaurs and various different climate changes, 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:15.840 and we're more and more aware all the time of 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:17.600 all of the different things that could kill off all 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:20.480 the humans, most of which rely on the humans being 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:22.000 all in the same place. So if we go to 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:25.160 different planets and spread out, then we've got to backup 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:29.320 if Earth's biosphere collapses. And to me, I find that 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:32.680 one to be the most convincing argument. Unfortunately, it's also 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:36.520 a very powerful emotional argument, because then if you have 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:39.600 any sort of pushback against either space settlement as a 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:42.880 whole or specific parts of space settlement, or if you 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:45.400 just say, for example, maybe we should slow down space 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:47.920 settlement and think about what we're doing here, the opposition 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:49.679 to that tends to be, oh, do you want all 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:50.720 humans to die? 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:50.959 Then? 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:54.760 So that sort of false dichotomy where your criticisms are 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:56.640 on one side and on the other side is the 0:12:56.679 --> 0:12:58.960 extinction of the human race. It makes it hard to 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:02.240 have reasonable conversations. But then beyond that, there's some more 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:06.480 interesting and also very emotional arguments. People who argue that 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:10.080 we have to expand always and continuously without stopping, because 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:14.199 otherwise our culture or our scientific knowledge. If we stop growing, 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:17.640 that collapses, We stagnate, we stop knowing how to invent 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:20.600 new things, we stop knowing how to do art. And 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:23.520 that's the problem with pop music these days, is not 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:26.760 enough expansion. And not only is this just a very 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:32.120 common and often recycled argument you hear between generations a 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:34.600 lot about what's wrong with the kids these days, but 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:37.040 this is also the kind of argument that you've seen 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:40.120 throughout history, especially in the US. There's an argument that 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:44.280 once the frontier of European settlement reached the west coast 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:45.679 of the US and the frontier in a way, that 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:49.120 America somehow became less of itself because our culture had 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:51.200 been built on having a frontier, and so we have 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:54.640 to find this new frontier out in space. I don't 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:57.720 find that one particularly convincing for a number of reasons. 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:00.520 I also think that the idea that we need to 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:04.160 always expand continuously or something bad will happen leads us 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:06.640 to making bad decisions, trying to grow too fast, trying 0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:08.880 to consume too fast, and that we should in fact 0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:12.240 be learning how to balance how to live sustainably with 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:14.520 our environment. And there's plenty of cultures who are more 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:17.079 focused on that, So maybe we should amplify their voices. 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:19.840 You don't think we need space cowboys to stay who 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:20.200 we are. 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:23.560 I mean, I don't have a problem with the esthetic. 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:26.720 Space cowboy rhinestones on the spaceship kind of thing. 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:29.800 Listen, you're just selling on it. The more you talk 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:30.680 about What. 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:32.560 I love about those arguments, though, is that the people 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:34.920 who are making those stagnation arguments, and I'll just go 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:36.560 ahead and say that I do have Rubbert Zubert in 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:39.120 mind right now, are also the ones who are like, well, 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:42.520 now is the time because SpaceX is dropping the cost 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:44.520 of launching the space and it's like all of this 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:48.240 amazing technological growth, and like how AI is helping us? 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:50.640 Is what's getting us there? And so where is the 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:53.360 stagnation that they're talking about anyway? 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:55.520 Okay, no, no, that's fair. I mean the problem here, 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:56.960 and the problem with a lot of these arguments is 0:14:56.960 --> 0:14:58.480 even if you have people off living on the space 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:00.560 frontier somewhere, there's still more some of us are going 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:02.480 to be living on Earth needing to learn how to 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:04.200 live sustainably with the Earth. So we have to figure 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:07.000 out that part anyway. So then another big one that 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:10.360 you see a lot, especially and really strong space settlement 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:13.280 advocates is the idea that it's our destiny, that it's 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:17.480 not just fulfilling our biological or psychological or whatever drive 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:21.160 to go out and explore and expand, but it's somehow inevitable, 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:24.200 and if we try to stop ourselves, we're working against nature. 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:26.520 This is a to me, a much less strong argument. 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:29.240 Tends to go with very poetic language, so it's appealing, 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:32.080 you know, emotionally in that sense, and you hear this 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:34.640 the most and the more flowery marketing talk. But I 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:38.200 don't think it's a good rational argument. And often when 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:40.720 I'm talking to space settlement advocates, I try to point 0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:42.640 that out to them. I'm like, listen, you've got a 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:45.480 great little, you know, video that you've put together with 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:49.040 stirring music and images of space vistas and talk about 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:52.240 how it's humanity's destiny. But that's actually not the best 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:54.320 way to sell it to people who aren't sure. You 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:57.800 need to explain how space settlement's going to benefit everyone, 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:01.280 including the people back on Earth, and you can't use 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:04.040 this sort of argument from nature, because even if it 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:06.800 were true that we have some sort of innate drive 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:09.240 to expand and explore, which, as far as I understand, 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:12.520 the science is still out on that. We don't just 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:14.960 do things because our genetics tell us to like you 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:17.720 and so have evolved past that and we have to 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:19.920 think about our decisions instead of just saying, oh, well, 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:22.440 you know, it's our innate drive, so we don't need 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:23.960 to examine this plane at all. 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:25.680 Well, can I jump in and speak up for that 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:29.840 irrational motivation because that's the one that resonates the most 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:32.560 with me, and rational or not, Like, I want to 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:35.480 know what's out there in the universe. I want us 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:38.480 to explore the edges of the galaxy. I want us 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:40.840 to figure out how to go from galaxy to galaxy. 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:43.320 And it seems to me like step one of that 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:46.880 dream is to go from planet to planet, right, And 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:51.440 so my desire doesn't come from like a genetic disposition 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:54.800 to conquer every square inch of land on every surface, 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:57.280 but just to know how the universe works, Like I 0:16:57.320 --> 0:16:58.800 feel like it would be a shame for us to 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:01.200 be trapped on this rock for ever, and I don't 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:03.320 know how it's going to happen, but eventually has to 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:06.120 happen if we're going to figure stuff out. Maybe that's irrational, 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:09.520 but can't irrational motivations drive our decision sometimes? I mean, 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:14.159 my whole research program is probably useless and impractical and 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:17.920 therefore irrational. Does that mean that we shouldn't do art 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:19.400 and culture and stuff like that? 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:21.639 To be honest, I have the exact same drive. I 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:23.639 also would love to be out there and want us 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:25.560 to be exploring and want us to poke around and 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:28.040 see what's going on, And that certainly motivates me as 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:31.080 a scientist. And there's nothing wrong with emotional motivations. Let 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:33.320 me say it that way instead of irrational. The key here, 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:36.720 I think is not to try to use an emotional 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:40.960 argument as if it's a rational argument, I think. And 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:43.560 the other key I think is it's important to identify 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:47.320 when there's multiple motivations going on, especially if your individual 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:51.000 motivation is maybe different from the organization's argument that they're 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:53.320 poting forward. I think a lot of people are very 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:56.119 driven by these emotional feelings that they want to be 0:17:56.200 --> 0:17:58.159 out there, they want to see humanity out there, and 0:17:58.200 --> 0:17:59.960 then they go off and try to cook up a 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:02.800 good marketing case for it that doesn't acknowledge that they're 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:04.880 being driven emotionally, I think we need both. 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:06.600 And let me be clear, I don't want to be 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:08.600 out there. I want humanity to be out there, but 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:10.680 I'm staying here on Earth like I'm a total wimp. 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:12.480 There's no way you're getting me in the spaceship. 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:16.040 And the other important thing, like I'm not trying to 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:19.520 say some arguments count and some don't. I think it's 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:22.320 just really important to figure out what your motivations are, 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:25.120 not just because then you can decide, like the binary 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:27.840 yes or no, should you do this? But our motivations 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:30.879 will drive our decision making in every aspect of our planning, 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:33.199 and so it's important to be very self aware of 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:35.720 that and aware of the people that you're working with 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:38.280 so that you don't end up having an obstacle in 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:40.520 your decision making because you didn't realize one of you 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:43.080 is trying to make a trillion dollars from space mining 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:45.560 and the other one just wants to retire in space. 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:47.520 That's going to lead to some different decision making. 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:52.280 Well, I think most people probably feel like space exploration 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:55.840 is overall good, and maybe there's different motivations. And I 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:57.720 totally agree with you that we should be upfront about 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:00.159 what they are, But I feel like the context for 0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:03.680 understanding which these arguments are good or bad or where 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:05.800 they come from is that there are arguments on the 0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:08.480 other side, right, that there are reasons to not just 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:12.199 rush headlong into space exploration. And that might come as 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:14.639 a surprise to some folks, Like what's an argument for 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:17.720 not settling space? What's an example of a reason why 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:21.640