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Speaker 1: The year is nineteen seventy. Mario Eskimia had been working

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Speaker 1: with Donald Lovitt, otherwise known as Porky, in the Arctic

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Speaker 1: for over a month, and he was pretty fed up

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Speaker 1: with Porky at this point. Porky had the bad habit

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Speaker 1: of getting drunk and wielding butcher cleavers while stealing his

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Speaker 1: crewmate's wine, clearly behavior that would be frowned upon in

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Speaker 1: just about any culture. So this had happened yet again,

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Speaker 1: and Eskima got all fired up and grabbed his rifle

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Speaker 1: and went to confront Porky. Porky was indeed enjoying a

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Speaker 1: cocktail with the stolen wine, and he was enjoying that

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Speaker 1: cocktail with the station manager, a man named Benny Lightsey.

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Speaker 1: Eskimia was arguing with Lightsee about what should be done

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Speaker 1: about the whole Porky situation when his rifle accidentally went.

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Speaker 2: Off, killing Lights.

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Speaker 1: This actually ended up becoming a fairly famous case in

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Speaker 1: the world of law because it provided some precedent for

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Speaker 1: what happens when you're outside of the jurisdiction of other nations.

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Speaker 1: So what happens when you're on a mobile piece of

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Speaker 1: ice in the Arctic Ocean what court do you get

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Speaker 1: tried in? And who decides what happens? Well, in this case,

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Speaker 1: it was fairly straightforward because both men were United States citizens,

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Speaker 1: so the case was tried in the US and Eskimia

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Speaker 1: was ultimately acquitted. What happens if you have a Martian

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Speaker 1: settlement and Mario Eskimia is from the United States, for example,

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Speaker 1: and Benny Lightsey is from Russia for example?

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Speaker 2: What happens on Mars?

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Speaker 1: Who oversees the court case, who decides what the punishment

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Speaker 1: should be, and what punishment is fair in a harsh

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Speaker 1: environment millions of miles from the home planet. Well to

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Speaker 1: answer some of these questions today, we're talking to doctor

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Speaker 1: Erica Nesvold. Her book Off Earth tackles questions about law,

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Speaker 1: social justice, and ethics in space.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Daniel and kelly Is Extraordinary Universe.

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Speaker 3: Hi. I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I'm excited

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Speaker 3: for other people to go into space. And welcome to

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Speaker 3: the podcast Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kelly Wiener Smith. I'm a parasitologist, and I think

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Speaker 1: it would be great for other people to settle space,

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Speaker 1: depending on how it gets done, I have qualifications.

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Speaker 3: And so on today's episode, we're going to be digging

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Speaker 3: into the details of what questions we have to ask

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Speaker 3: before we settle space and how we handle it once

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Speaker 3: we get there, including tricky questions like who gets to

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Speaker 3: make space law on what happens when you break it,

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Speaker 3: which makes me wonder, Kelly. Down here on Earth, people

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Speaker 3: are always breaking laws, you know, jaywalking or parking illegally

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Speaker 3: or whatever. So my questioning to you today is, what

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Speaker 3: is the most serious law you've ever broken?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Wow, on air here, not under oath, but on air.

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Speaker 1: That's right, that's right. Well, you know, I feel like

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Speaker 1: those things are the same. I have to be honest.

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Speaker 1: I think that the most trouble I almost got in

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Speaker 1: it was Thanksgiving and my three year old had been

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Speaker 1: screaming in the car on the ride home from Ohio

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Speaker 1: in the slushy snow rain combo for like hours, like

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Speaker 1: literally hours, and I went from a sixty five to

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Speaker 1: a forty five zone and I didn't realize I had

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Speaker 1: gone from a sixty five to a forty five zone.

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Speaker 1: I didn't see the forty five sign because I had

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Speaker 1: no brain lift at that point. And if you go

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Speaker 1: over twenty then you get your license taken away.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 1: So the police officer he walked up to the car

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Speaker 1: and he heard the screaming and he went.

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Speaker 2: Oh, like, maybe he's also a parent.

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Speaker 1: And all I know is that the ticket said I

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Speaker 1: had gone nineteen over oh, which meant I got to

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Speaker 1: keep my license. And I was more care about driving

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Speaker 1: when my kiddo was screaming after that. So basically I

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Speaker 1: am a whimp and I have not done too many dangerous, scary,

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Speaker 1: illegal things in my lifetime.

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Speaker 2: But what about you? Okay, of course it's going to

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Speaker 2: be your turn now, No.

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Speaker 3: I need to fall up on your story. Does that

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Speaker 3: mean that you can commit any felony you want? But

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Speaker 3: if there's a screaming baby, they'll downgrade it to a misdemeanor.

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Speaker 3: They're like murder one, No, but her kid was crying,

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Speaker 3: so we'll just call it manslaughter.

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Speaker 1: You know, I haven't done the appropriate experimental like design

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Speaker 1: to test that hypothesis. I mean I can imagine it

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Speaker 1: going the other way. Sometimes baby screaming just make people angry.

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Speaker 1: I could imagine, you know, somebody being like, no, I

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Speaker 1: want to write you a ticket for an extra five

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Speaker 1: miles an hour. Because I'm just not happy it's hearing

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Speaker 1: this baby screaming. So I wouldn't want to risk it.

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Speaker 3: But what do you think, Well, I've planned on that. Actually,

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Speaker 3: maybe the greatest crime I've committed that I haven't been

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Speaker 3: caught for is importing illegal cheeses. You know, we used

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Speaker 3: to go back and forth discern all the time when

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Speaker 3: our kids were young, and we would come back from

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Speaker 3: friends and they'd be our favorite cheeses and we'd want

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Speaker 3: to have them, and so we've packed them in our

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Speaker 3: suitcase even though they're illegal to import. And our plan

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Speaker 3: was always if we get searched, you know, just rely

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Speaker 3: on our toddlers to cry and scream and to get

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Speaker 3: us out of it. So I'm glad to hear that

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Speaker 3: works sometimes. That's great what I forgot.

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Speaker 2: I also committed dairy related crime.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 1: I was in Norway during the butter shortage that happened

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Speaker 1: a while ago. It was like some import roles and

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Speaker 1: there wasn't enough butter, and so me and the folks

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Speaker 1: that I was working with, we snuck across the border

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Speaker 1: to Sweden and bought a bunch of butter and smuggled

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Speaker 1: it back across for our dinner. I also have engaged

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Speaker 1: in dairy related crimes.

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Speaker 3: I did not realize today's podcast was going to be

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Speaker 3: about international dairy smuggling, but there we go.

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Speaker 2: There you go. It may or may not come up again,

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Speaker 2: or maybe that was just.

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Speaker 3: Us And maybe in the future of folks in space

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Speaker 3: settlements are going to be smuggling cheeses and butters from

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Speaker 3: one habitat to another.

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Speaker 1: Those are going to be some stinky cheeses if you're

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Speaker 1: taking them from Earth and they've got a six month

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Speaker 1: transit though, but some people are into that. But these

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Speaker 1: are some sort of complicated situations. If somebody is committing

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Speaker 1: crimes on Mars, what's the right court for that to

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Speaker 1: be tried in? And what happens if you have people

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Speaker 1: from different countries even now, like it's complicated when you

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Speaker 1: have people committing crimes against one another and they're from

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Speaker 1: different countries, especially if they're in a place like Antarctica

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Speaker 1: that's supposed to, you know, belong to no nation. But

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Speaker 1: that's just the tip of the ethical iceberg for stuff

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Speaker 1: that needs to get dealt with. And so today we've

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Speaker 1: got this amazing guest who can talk about loads of

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Speaker 1: different ethical problems associated with why we go to space,

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Speaker 1: how many people we send to space.

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Speaker 2: There's just a lot to think about.

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Speaker 3: That's right, and so these are really fun questions that

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Speaker 3: we do need to think about before we build out

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Speaker 3: humanity's future into space. But before we hear from an

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Speaker 3: expert who's thought a lot about this and written an

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Speaker 3: excellent book on the topic. We were curious what tricky topics

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Speaker 3: the person on the street anticipated we might run into

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Speaker 3: when we decide to settle space.

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Speaker 4: I think the ethical problems of all the bodies were

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Speaker 4: going to harm exposing to space environments. I think probably

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Speaker 4: the ethics of international law are going to be really bad.

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Speaker 4: They're already bad on the oceans. So space is just

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Speaker 4: space ocean, but worse. I mean, there's just the ongoing

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Speaker 4: problem which is not new to space, but space worse

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Speaker 4: where we take actions that have huge implications for like

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Speaker 4: way later human generations, you know, and we're not always

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Speaker 4: doing right by people to generations down the road, much

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Speaker 4: less one hundred.

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Speaker 2: Generations down the road.

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Speaker 4: And so I would really hope that we're thinking at

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Speaker 4: least one hundred gen down the road when we do

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Speaker 4: space stuff.

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Speaker 3: The allocation of resources, who do.

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Speaker 5: You say first, if there's a disaster, be it like

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Speaker 5: during Space Traveler, once you actually land on the planet

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Speaker 5: they're aiming for, Like, do you prioritize your engineers and

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Speaker 5: scientists to people who can actually pet things running?

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Speaker 6: Do you protire to your children the women who you

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Speaker 6: plan to have children with, you know? Do you just

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Speaker 6: draw straws and help for the best? Another one, what

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Speaker 6: do you do if you run into any indigenous people

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Speaker 6: you get there? And also when do people become what

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Speaker 6: we consider indigenous?

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Speaker 5: You know, like if somebody landed on the planet fifty

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Speaker 5: or one hundred years before, did they have a bare

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Speaker 5: claim despite whatever government have decleared on the way there?

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Speaker 7: The value of.

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Speaker 6: Human lives and the cost benefits out of exploring space.

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Speaker 7: One I think has to do with economic class, and

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Speaker 7: I think the disparity between poor and rich, for example,

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Speaker 7: would be even greater than it is based on decisions

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Speaker 7: of who gets to settle in these new colonies. Would

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Speaker 7: it be considered a consequence in sending the poor out

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Speaker 7: there or would it be considered a benefit and the

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Speaker 7: rich would go out there? Either way, I think would

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Speaker 7: disparity would be great and huge. I also think it

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Speaker 7: would cause political tensions as well between countries over who

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Speaker 7: gets to colonize these new areas in space.

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Speaker 3: So, Kelly, who did you ask these questions of?

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Speaker 1: I asked these questions of friends of mine on Facebook?

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Speaker 1: I asked who wants to answer some anonymous questions for me?

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Speaker 1: And then I texted them the question and they left

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Speaker 1: me a voicemail with the answer.

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Speaker 3: Definitely a scientific sample for sure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, these are all Kelly's social network answers. None

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Speaker 1: of them cited my book though, so they can't be

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Speaker 1: that quote. But no, no, no, I thought these were

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Speaker 1: all great and interesting answers.

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Speaker 2: What did you think?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? I think these are pretty well informed. They would

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Speaker 3: be better informed if they'd read your excellent book, of course,

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Speaker 3: but they give us a good preview for what kind

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Speaker 3: of things people are thinking about, what kind of tricky

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Speaker 3: questions there are when humanity decides to move into the stars.

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Speaker 1: And if you would like us to expand out past

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Speaker 1: Kelly's social network, please feel free to get in touch

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Speaker 1: with us at questions at danielant Kelly dot org.

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Speaker 3: We'll send you the questions for future episodes, and you

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Speaker 3: can hear your voice on the We.

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Speaker 1: Would love to have your voice featured on the show.

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Speaker 1: All right, so, without further ado, show, we invite Erica

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Speaker 1: onto the show.

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Speaker 3: Let's do it all right, here we go.

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Speaker 1: On today's show, we have doctor Erica Nesvold. She is

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Speaker 1: an astrophysicist and a developer for Universe Sandbox, which she

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Speaker 1: calls astronomy educational software masquerading as a video game I'm in.

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Speaker 5: She made a.

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Speaker 1: Podcast called Making New Worlds where she interviewed a bunch

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Speaker 1: of experts from a variety of different backgrounds about questions

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Speaker 1: related to ethics and justice in space, and expanded those

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Speaker 1: conversations into a book called Off Earth Ethical Questions and

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Speaker 1: Quandaries for Living in Outer Space. She also, because apparently

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Speaker 1: she can do everything, co founded a nonprofit called the

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Speaker 1: Just Space Alliance, which advocates for a more inclusive and

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Speaker 1: ethical future in space while also striving to make the

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Speaker 1: world more just and equitable back here on Earth today.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for being on.

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Speaker 8: The show, Erica, Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: It's good to be chatting with you again. We've met

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Speaker 1: irl once, which was super fun. It was fun, Yes,

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Speaker 1: talking about how people should maybe take birth in space

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Speaker 1: a little bit more seriously, or that was the part

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Speaker 1: that I remembered most strongly.

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Speaker 8: That's right.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So let's start with ethics around going to space

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Speaker 1: at all. So when I was getting involved in this literature,

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Speaker 1: I found a lot of arguments that weren't super convincing.

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Speaker 1: So let's start with some of the arguments that you

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Speaker 1: think are least convincing, and then work our way up

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Speaker 1: to the argument that you think is the most convincing

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Speaker 1: for why we should be settling space.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean this is sort of where I got

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Speaker 8: into these questions in the first place. I always been

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Speaker 8: a big fan of space and even a big fan

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Speaker 8: of human space expiation and settlement, and so I've been

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Speaker 8: sort of steeped in these space settlement advocacy rhetoric since

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Speaker 8: I was a kid. And then I started really digging

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Speaker 8: into it and thinking about whether I agree with all

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Speaker 8: of these arguments, and I started off my book really

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Speaker 8: digging into them because they come in a few different flavors.

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Speaker 8: There's the people who say that we need to go

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Speaker 8: to space so that we don't have all of our

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Speaker 8: eggs in one back. We need to become a multiplanetary

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Speaker 8: species because our planet where we all live is potentially

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Speaker 8: a weak point. It's fragile. We've seen species get wiped

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Speaker 8: out here before through the dinosaurs and various different climate changes,

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Speaker 8: and we're more and more aware all the time of

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Speaker 8: all of the different things that could kill off all

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Speaker 8: the humans, most of which rely on the humans being

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Speaker 8: all in the same place. So if we go to

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Speaker 8: different planets and spread out, then we've got to backup

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Speaker 8: if Earth's biosphere collapses. And to me, I find that

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Speaker 8: one to be the most convincing argument. Unfortunately, it's also

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Speaker 8: a very powerful emotional argument, because then if you have

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Speaker 8: any sort of pushback against either space settlement as a

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Speaker 8: whole or specific parts of space settlement, or if you

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Speaker 8: just say, for example, maybe we should slow down space

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Speaker 8: settlement and think about what we're doing here, the opposition

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Speaker 8: to that tends to be, oh, do you want all

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Speaker 8: humans to die?

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Speaker 5: Then?

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Speaker 8: So that sort of false dichotomy where your criticisms are

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Speaker 8: on one side and on the other side is the

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Speaker 8: extinction of the human race. It makes it hard to

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Speaker 8: have reasonable conversations. But then beyond that, there's some more

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Speaker 8: interesting and also very emotional arguments. People who argue that

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Speaker 8: we have to expand always and continuously without stopping, because

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Speaker 8: otherwise our culture or our scientific knowledge. If we stop growing,

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Speaker 8: that collapses, We stagnate, we stop knowing how to invent

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Speaker 8: new things, we stop knowing how to do art. And

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Speaker 8: that's the problem with pop music these days, is not

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Speaker 8: enough expansion. And not only is this just a very

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Speaker 8: common and often recycled argument you hear between generations a

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Speaker 8: lot about what's wrong with the kids these days, but

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Speaker 8: this is also the kind of argument that you've seen

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Speaker 8: throughout history, especially in the US. There's an argument that

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Speaker 8: once the frontier of European settlement reached the west coast

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Speaker 8: of the US and the frontier in a way, that

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Speaker 8: America somehow became less of itself because our culture had

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Speaker 8: been built on having a frontier, and so we have

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Speaker 8: to find this new frontier out in space. I don't

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Speaker 8: find that one particularly convincing for a number of reasons.

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Speaker 8: I also think that the idea that we need to

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Speaker 8: always expand continuously or something bad will happen leads us

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Speaker 8: to making bad decisions, trying to grow too fast, trying

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Speaker 8: to consume too fast, and that we should in fact

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Speaker 8: be learning how to balance how to live sustainably with

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Speaker 8: our environment. And there's plenty of cultures who are more

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Speaker 8: focused on that, So maybe we should amplify their voices.

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Speaker 3: You don't think we need space cowboys to stay who

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Speaker 3: we are.

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Speaker 8: I mean, I don't have a problem with the esthetic.

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Speaker 3: Space cowboy rhinestones on the spaceship kind of thing.

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Speaker 8: Listen, you're just selling on it. The more you talk

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Speaker 8: about What.

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Speaker 1: I love about those arguments, though, is that the people

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Speaker 1: who are making those stagnation arguments, and I'll just go

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Speaker 1: ahead and say that I do have Rubbert Zubert in

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Speaker 1: mind right now, are also the ones who are like, well,

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Speaker 1: now is the time because SpaceX is dropping the cost

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Speaker 1: of launching the space and it's like all of this

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Speaker 1: amazing technological growth, and like how AI is helping us?

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Speaker 1: Is what's getting us there? And so where is the

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Speaker 1: stagnation that they're talking about anyway?

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Speaker 8: Okay, no, no, that's fair. I mean the problem here,

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Speaker 8: and the problem with a lot of these arguments is

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Speaker 8: even if you have people off living on the space

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Speaker 8: frontier somewhere, there's still more some of us are going

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Speaker 8: to be living on Earth needing to learn how to

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Speaker 8: live sustainably with the Earth. So we have to figure

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Speaker 8: out that part anyway. So then another big one that

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Speaker 8: you see a lot, especially and really strong space settlement

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Speaker 8: advocates is the idea that it's our destiny, that it's

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Speaker 8: not just fulfilling our biological or psychological or whatever drive

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Speaker 8: to go out and explore and expand, but it's somehow inevitable,

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Speaker 8: and if we try to stop ourselves, we're working against nature.

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Speaker 8: This is a to me, a much less strong argument.

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Speaker 8: Tends to go with very poetic language, so it's appealing,

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Speaker 8: you know, emotionally in that sense, and you hear this

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Speaker 8: the most and the more flowery marketing talk. But I

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Speaker 8: don't think it's a good rational argument. And often when

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Speaker 8: I'm talking to space settlement advocates, I try to point

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Speaker 8: that out to them. I'm like, listen, you've got a

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Speaker 8: great little, you know, video that you've put together with

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Speaker 8: stirring music and images of space vistas and talk about

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Speaker 8: how it's humanity's destiny. But that's actually not the best

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Speaker 8: way to sell it to people who aren't sure. You

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Speaker 8: need to explain how space settlement's going to benefit everyone,

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Speaker 8: including the people back on Earth, and you can't use

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Speaker 8: this sort of argument from nature, because even if it

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Speaker 8: were true that we have some sort of innate drive

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Speaker 8: to expand and explore, which, as far as I understand,

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Speaker 8: the science is still out on that. We don't just

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Speaker 8: do things because our genetics tell us to like you

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Speaker 8: and so have evolved past that and we have to

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Speaker 8: think about our decisions instead of just saying, oh, well,

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Speaker 8: you know, it's our innate drive, so we don't need

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Speaker 8: to examine this plane at all.

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Speaker 3: Well, can I jump in and speak up for that

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Speaker 3: irrational motivation because that's the one that resonates the most

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Speaker 3: with me, and rational or not, Like, I want to

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Speaker 3: know what's out there in the universe. I want us

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Speaker 3: to explore the edges of the galaxy. I want us

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Speaker 3: to figure out how to go from galaxy to galaxy.

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Speaker 3: And it seems to me like step one of that

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Speaker 3: dream is to go from planet to planet, right, And

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Speaker 3: so my desire doesn't come from like a genetic disposition

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Speaker 3: to conquer every square inch of land on every surface,

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Speaker 3: but just to know how the universe works, Like I

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Speaker 3: feel like it would be a shame for us to

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Speaker 3: be trapped on this rock for ever, and I don't

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Speaker 3: know how it's going to happen, but eventually has to

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Speaker 3: happen if we're going to figure stuff out. Maybe that's irrational,

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Speaker 3: but can't irrational motivations drive our decision sometimes? I mean,

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Speaker 3: my whole research program is probably useless and impractical and

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Speaker 3: therefore irrational. Does that mean that we shouldn't do art

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Speaker 3: and culture and stuff like that?

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Speaker 8: To be honest, I have the exact same drive. I

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Speaker 8: also would love to be out there and want us

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Speaker 8: to be exploring and want us to poke around and

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Speaker 8: see what's going on, And that certainly motivates me as

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Speaker 8: a scientist. And there's nothing wrong with emotional motivations. Let

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Speaker 8: me say it that way instead of irrational. The key here,

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Speaker 8: I think is not to try to use an emotional

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Speaker 8: argument as if it's a rational argument, I think. And

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Speaker 8: the other key I think is it's important to identify

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Speaker 8: when there's multiple motivations going on, especially if your individual

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Speaker 8: motivation is maybe different from the organization's argument that they're

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Speaker 8: poting forward. I think a lot of people are very

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Speaker 8: driven by these emotional feelings that they want to be

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Speaker 8: out there, they want to see humanity out there, and

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Speaker 8: then they go off and try to cook up a

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Speaker 8: good marketing case for it that doesn't acknowledge that they're

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Speaker 8: being driven emotionally, I think we need both.

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Speaker 3: And let me be clear, I don't want to be

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Speaker 3: out there. I want humanity to be out there, but

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Speaker 3: I'm staying here on Earth like I'm a total wimp.

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Speaker 3: There's no way you're getting me in the spaceship.

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Speaker 8: And the other important thing, like I'm not trying to

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Speaker 8: say some arguments count and some don't. I think it's

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Speaker 8: just really important to figure out what your motivations are,

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Speaker 8: not just because then you can decide, like the binary

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Speaker 8: yes or no, should you do this? But our motivations

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Speaker 8: will drive our decision making in every aspect of our planning,

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Speaker 8: and so it's important to be very self aware of

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Speaker 8: that and aware of the people that you're working with

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Speaker 8: so that you don't end up having an obstacle in

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Speaker 8: your decision making because you didn't realize one of you

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Speaker 8: is trying to make a trillion dollars from space mining

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Speaker 8: and the other one just wants to retire in space.

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Speaker 8: That's going to lead to some different decision making.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think most people probably feel like space exploration

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Speaker 3: is overall good, and maybe there's different motivations. And I

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Speaker 3: totally agree with you that we should be upfront about

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Speaker 3: what they are, But I feel like the context for

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Speaker 3: understanding which these arguments are good or bad or where

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Speaker 3: they come from is that there are arguments on the

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Speaker 3: other side, right, that there are reasons to not just

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Speaker 3: rush headlong into space exploration. And that might come as

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Speaker 3: a surprise to some folks, Like what's an argument for

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Speaker 3: not settling space? What's an example of a reason why

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Speaker 3: we should not be building colonies on Mars Organmede.

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Speaker 8: That's a very important question, and I actually think that

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Speaker 8: all of these arguments for space have their opposite argument.

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Speaker 8: So one argument for space settlement of space expression that

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Speaker 8: I didn't list is just that we could make money

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Speaker 8: doing it. But it also costs an enormous amount of

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Speaker 8: money to do any of these projects, especially the ones

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Speaker 8: that are being proposed for the future. And so you know,

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Speaker 8: from a very pragmatic financial perspective, we can say, as

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Speaker 8: a species, as humanity, or as individual investors, is it

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Speaker 8: worth the huge amount of time and money that we

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Speaker 8: need to invest. Will we get that back or will

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Speaker 8: we just kind of be pouring it down the drain

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Speaker 8: and then a few rockets will explode in the industry

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Speaker 8: will collapse. That's a decision.

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Speaker 3: Should we be building more elementary schools or funding space explorations.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, is there something else we could be putting that

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Speaker 8: money and brain power into on Earth that would help

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Speaker 8: better ensure that humanity is going to survive, better ensure

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Speaker 8: that people on Earth will have better lives.

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Speaker 3: More parasitology grants, for example, exactly.

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Speaker 8: The most important.

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Speaker 2: That's right. I'm glad we all agree.

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Speaker 8: And on the existential risk idea, the idea that if

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Speaker 8: we don't escape the planet, then our species risks being

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Speaker 8: killed off, has its reverse argument as well. There are

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Speaker 8: people Daniel Dudney is one of them. If he wrote

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Speaker 8: a book called Dark Skies in the past few years

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Speaker 8: who argues that trying to settle space will increase the

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Speaker 8: risk that we will kill ourselves off. Because he makes

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Speaker 8: this political science argument that more activity in space will

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Speaker 8: mean more nations arguing with each other about what's happening

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Speaker 8: in space, and more weapons in space, potentially weapons of

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Speaker 8: mass destruction. We could destabilize the global balance and end

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Speaker 8: up in a nuclear war that would kill us off

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Speaker 8: because we tried to leave the Earth, and so there

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Speaker 8: are risks. There are risks that going to space could

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Speaker 8: lead to nuclear war. There's also just risks that the

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Speaker 8: opportunity cost, we could be spending that money elsewhere. There's

440
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,800
Speaker 8: risks that if we do it too fast without deliberate thought,

441
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,080
Speaker 8: that will just make a mess of things, and that

442
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,080
Speaker 8: maybe it would be better for everyone in space and

443
00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:23,280
Speaker 8: on Earth if we took it a little slower. And

444
00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:25,200
Speaker 8: so I've heard all these arguments, and I think it's

445
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,800
Speaker 8: really important. Even if you're someone like me who thinks

446
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,080
Speaker 8: I'm pro space settlement, I think it's it's important to

447
00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,639
Speaker 8: listen to all these arguments, including the people who say no,

448
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:35,920
Speaker 8: we're not ready to go to space, because they tend

449
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,359
Speaker 8: to have the best and most observant criticisms of the plans,

450
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,360
Speaker 8: so they can poke holes in your big plans, which

451
00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:41,880
Speaker 8: is important.

452
00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 3: Well, that makes sense as much as I'm, for example,

453
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:48,280
Speaker 3: an advocate of exploring the universe and potentially meeting aliens.

454
00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:50,960
Speaker 3: Is also the risk that if you advertise your location

455
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:52,760
Speaker 3: to meet aliens, they're like, oh, why don't we come

456
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,840
Speaker 3: and kill you and eat you or nuq from orbit.

457
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:56,919
Speaker 3: So yeah, absolutely there are risks.

458
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:58,919
Speaker 8: There well, and even scientists. I'm a scientist too, I'm

459
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,240
Speaker 8: motivated by no and stuff. But we have plenty of history,

460
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:06,200
Speaker 8: especially in non astronomy fields of examples where learning stuff

461
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,399
Speaker 8: and being able to build new stuff led us to

462
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 8: cause a lot of harm from the discoveries and the

463
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,479
Speaker 8: technologies made, which to me isn't an argument to not

464
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,800
Speaker 8: do science, but it's an argument to think about all

465
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 8: the ethics and human rights stuff at the same time

466
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:20,800
Speaker 8: that we're doing the science and technology.

467
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,119
Speaker 1: The rockets that took us to the Moon are the

468
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,960
Speaker 1: same rockets that we're being dropped on England during World

469
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,960
Speaker 1: War two and are puplicated historically exactly.

470
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 3: So we're not saying, hey, space is bad, our exploration

471
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 3: is bad. We're saying there's nuance here. We should understand

472
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,919
Speaker 3: the motivation of our arguments. We should acknowledge that there

473
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 3: are two sides of this, and we should proceed carefully

474
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,840
Speaker 3: rather than just rushing headlong into it and launching stuff

475
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:45,400
Speaker 3: because we can.

476
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 8: That is my arch Other arguments exist.

477
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,119
Speaker 1: I think it's reasonable to assume that probably this stuff

478
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 1: is going to move forward at some point no matter

479
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 1: what the argument is. Right now, most of the people

480
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,880
Speaker 1: who have been to space are highly trained, highly fit

481
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:22,359
Speaker 1: astronauts which were picked by governments or super rich people,

482
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 1: or the people picked by super rich people as space

483
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 1: tourism kind of opens up. Right now, the sieve seems

484
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 1: to be like money or being you know, cream of

485
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:35,120
Speaker 1: the crop intellectual, physical, But presumably settlements at some point

486
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 1: are going to be just the rest of us, people

487
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:39,120
Speaker 1: like me who would never get it, who could never

488
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,359
Speaker 1: afford it, and could never like get picked by NASA.

489
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,160
Speaker 1: So when that stage comes, what are the important things

490
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 1: that we need to think about for who is going

491
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 1: to be there in the first settlement and how we

492
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:49,199
Speaker 1: pick these people?

493
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 2: And it sounds complicated.

494
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,359
Speaker 8: Yeah, deciding who even gets to go to space is

495
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,080
Speaker 8: a problem we do with now. As you said, the

496
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 8: increase in private spaceflight really felt like a huge opening

497
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 8: of the field because suddenly you just have to be

498
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,439
Speaker 8: a fit military test pilot or picked by NASA. Now

499
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 8: we have this whole other set of people who get

500
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,120
Speaker 8: to go to space, who don't necessarily need to meet

501
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:11,199
Speaker 8: the fitness requirements. But this new pool not necessarily that

502
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,719
Speaker 8: big either, as you point out, it's still pretty limited,

503
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,920
Speaker 8: and we can think about how we'd want to keep

504
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 8: expanding that, and we can think about, well, so the

505
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 8: people we've picked so far have been for specific purposes.

506
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 8: NASA is trying to accomplish certain missions, mostly science exploration,

507
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,679
Speaker 8: technology testing. They pick people who can do that. The

508
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,920
Speaker 8: private space flight people have their own motivations. In this stage,

509
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,640
Speaker 8: it seems to be just raw raw space exploration is good.

510
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 8: Let's send the first whatever person to space on private

511
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 8: space flight. That's great. But if we were going to

512
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,679
Speaker 8: build a space settlement that we wanted it to last,

513
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 8: then that leads to bigger questions. That's much different than

514
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,399
Speaker 8: what NASA is trying to do, and so we have

515
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,959
Speaker 8: to ask questions like, maybe we don't need the strict

516
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,159
Speaker 8: physical and medical requirements because people are going to age

517
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 8: and get sick and injured in space, so we'll have

518
00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 8: to deal with that anyway. Maybe we need to think

519
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,399
Speaker 8: about reproductive fitness if we want to have reproduction in

520
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 8: space and perpetuated space colony with multiple generations. But then

521
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,479
Speaker 8: asking prospective space settlers about their fertility and their interest

522
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 8: in having children. That goes against a lot of our

523
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 8: ethics and our arguments for inclusivity today, and that leads

524
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,400
Speaker 8: to a lot of murky questions as well. And then

525
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,639
Speaker 8: there's just who do you pick? Do you pick a

526
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 8: bunch of astrophysicists I'm in a fan of that plant,

527
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 8: but I also would like to be living on Mars

528
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 8: with maybe some dentists and plumbers and teachers for the

529
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,120
Speaker 8: kids and artists as well. And so all of these

530
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,360
Speaker 8: questions get us back to questions about, well, what kind

531
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 8: of person do we actually value in society which has

532
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 8: this dark other side of what kind of person don't

533
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 8: revalue in society? And do we want to intentionally exclude them?

534
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 8: What kind of a were creating a dystopia here? Accidentally?

535
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 8: There's tons of questions like that.

536
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 3: It's really interesting how this stuff is decided. I feel

537
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 3: like a lot of times in brand new technologies, we

538
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 3: have decisions being made mostly government right funding agencies because

539
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 3: there isn't initially a commercial return, but eventually things get

540
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 3: picked up by private industry, and then decisions are being

541
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 3: made basically because of capitalism. Right, So where do you

542
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 3: think we are there and how should we be making

543
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 3: these decisions? Should we let capitalism decide basically who gets

544
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 3: to go live on Mars? Or should we have like

545
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 3: you know, table of experts and government advisors figuring this

546
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 3: stuff out for the benefit of society as a whole.

547
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 3: Would it happen if it's led by the government, like,

548
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 3: at some point it needs to become capitalism driven, I

549
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 3: feel like, but I don't really know anything about it.

550
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 3: Tell me what's your thoughts about that transition for space settlement.

551
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 8: There's definitely a lot of arguments right now that capitalism

552
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 8: is the only way to get us into space because

553
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 8: you need that sort of incentive to innovate and to

554
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 8: take risks, and government didn't have it, which is why

555
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 8: we're not all living in space right now, so capitalism

556
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 8: is the way to do it. I think that those

557
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,680
Speaker 8: arguments are so popular right now because capitalism is what's

558
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 8: driving current space exploration, along with the existing government. They

559
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 8: haven't gone away, but I'm not convinced that they're going

560
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 8: to finish the job. I'm not convinced that capitalism is

561
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 8: going to be what gets us into space. And I

562
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,360
Speaker 8: think it's possible that generations from now, what finally gets

563
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 8: us a permanent space settlement is going to be some

564
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 8: other political and economic system, and by then they'll be saying, well,

565
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 8: you know, communism is the only way we could have

566
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,479
Speaker 8: done this, and this is why we need a tyrannical government.

567
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 4: You know.

568
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 8: They could have their own argument for why their system

569
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 8: is perfect. And the interesting thing is that each of

570
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 8: these systems is going to come up with a different

571
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,879
Speaker 8: way to pick who gets to go live in space.

572
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 8: So for now, maybe it's well, whoever can pay, whoever

573
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 8: can pay for a ticket on a SpaceX passenger starliner

574
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 8: to Mars gets to go. We don't care whether their

575
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 8: dentists or not. We don't care that maybe it'll be

576
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 8: a bunch of particularly wealthy people and none of them

577
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 8: know how to farm, for example, and that could lead

578
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 8: to its own troubles. This is the sort of thing

579
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 8: we've seen historically happen on Earth. If you had a

580
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 8: bunch of rich colonists and nobody who knows how to

581
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 8: do the work. That causes a lot of problems, or

582
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 8: it could end up we swing back towards some sort

583
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 8: of international government efforts, and they take a long time

584
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 8: to decide who to send, and they have a lot

585
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 8: of arguments and committees about it, and they try to

586
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:14,360
Speaker 8: balance everything fairly. And there's other risks with that as well,

587
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 8: and including the fact that maybe that goes slower than

588
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,159
Speaker 8: doing it in a capitalist way. So notice here that

589
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 8: I'm not saying here's the correct way for it. I'm

590
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 8: saying this is another example of how your motivation will

591
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 8: drive the choices that you make. It could come down to,

592
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 8: we've developed all the technology, but haven't invested in a

593
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 8: space settlement yet. But now the asteroid's coming and we

594
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 8: have to evacuate some amount of people to perpetuate the

595
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 8: human species. And then you have all sorts of what

596
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 8: we call lifeboat ethics Titanic level, like the ship disaster

597
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 8: Titanic level, with decisions about who we put on the

598
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 8: lifeboat and what's fair, who do we save, how do

599
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 8: we make sure that it's enough dentists, whatnot, and so

600
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 8: that would cause a whole different set of decisions.

601
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 3: I love the dentists are your standard like pretty use

602
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 3: but not very exciting kind of categories.

603
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 8: It's really important to me. The dentists are in space.

604
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 3: We love you dentists. It's important. But I want to

605
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 3: follow up on the historical comments you made about what

606
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 3: we've learned, Like clearly we've done this kind of stuff

607
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 3: in the past. You know, we gave away land to

608
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 3: people to encourage them to move west, or we stole

609
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 3: land and then gave it to people, and even further back,

610
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 3: kings and queens funded expeditions to the New World because

611
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 3: they thought there were returns there. What have we learned

612
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 3: from our many mistakes and successes in the past.

613
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 8: Some of us have learned from over stays is the

614
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 8: key I think the benefit we have in thinking about

615
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 8: expanding human civilization into space. We have all these case

616
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 8: studies to look at lessons learned over the history of

617
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 8: the human species, and the benefit we have is that

618
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 8: we have all of human history to learn from. So

619
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 8: to me, it's a waste when we don't do that.

620
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 8: And at the moment, I can say from experience that scientists,

621
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 8: at least in the US, don't get a lot of

622
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 8: education in history beyond you know, basic grade school level.

623
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 8: We tend to just beyond it and think it's irrelevant.

624
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 8: But now we're trying to, you know, reinvent colonial sized societies,

625
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 8: and without having a reference, we're just going to repeat

626
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 8: all the same mistakes. That's my concern, and this is

627
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 8: part of what got me going with the podcast I created.

628
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 8: I decided maybe I should talk to actual colonial historians

629
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 8: and ask them their thoughts, and you know, I should

630
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 8: read up because as an American, this is mostly the

631
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 8: colonial history that I think about. So there's examples in

632
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 8: the colonization of North America, places like Jamestown, which is

633
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 8: a colony that failed a bunch before it finally stuck.

634
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 8: And the historians I read this, a lot went wrong

635
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 8: with Jamestown. One of the issues is that they had

636
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 8: a lot of more well off colonists and not a

637
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 8: lot of laborers to do the work, and so they

638
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 8: struggled to do the basic work. They struggled to satisfy

639
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 8: the company that sent them. The company wanted them to

640
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 8: make stuff for them to sell, cut lumber, et cetera.

641
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 8: Didn't give them enough time to build their farms and such.

642
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 8: That's something you can imagining happening in a space settlement.

643
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,040
Speaker 8: All sorts of lessons that we can learn from the

644
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 8: pass and not just to North America but around the world.

645
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 8: And it's just important that we bothered to do that

646
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 8: because it's going to save us so much time and

647
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 8: pain to at least recognize what could go wrong before

648
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 8: we repeat the same path in space.

649
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: What do you think are the most relevant historical analog So,

650
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: like you know, Daniel mentioned settling of the West, and

651
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: I have read people who would love to see like

652
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: a space Homestead Act sort of thing. I read a

653
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 1: bunch of that literature and then I decided, well, this

654
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: isn't going to be a big part of a city

655
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: on Mars because Antarctica and the deep seabed are more analogous.

656
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: But what do you think, And of course, if you

657
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: talk to a lot of space settlement people, they'll tell

658
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 1: you that the Outer Space Treaty is going to get

659
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: thrown out the window and we can have a Homestead Act.

660
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: So what do you think is the most interesting to

661
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: study historically as it relates to settlement.

662
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 8: I think there's two big categories of it. One, I

663
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 8: think we should be looking at the Western countries colonization

664
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 8: of as much of the world as they could grab,

665
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 8: and the history of that, what they tried, what went

666
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 8: well and what didn't, and in particularly what went well

667
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 8: for them and didn't, but all also what went well

668
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 8: and didn't for the less powerful people in those societies,

669
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 8: obviously the indigenous people.

670
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 2: Over time?

671
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 8: What is colonization with that particular attitude of colonization, What

672
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 8: does that do to the environment, What does that do

673
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 8: for future generations, what does that do for marginalized labor workforces?

674
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 8: And how can we not go that way in the future.

675
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 8: I think it's also really crucial, and I don't think

676
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 8: there's enough of this yet. And talks about space ethics,

677
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 8: I think it's really crucial that we learn from the

678
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 8: parts of human history where humans migrated and expanded into

679
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 8: places where no humans were living yet much earlier than colonization,

680
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 8: learn how that went well and didn't because Western people

681
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 8: didn't invent moving to a new place and building a

682
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 8: new community there, They just did it once everyone already

683
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,959
Speaker 8: had inhabited those places and decided to do it all

684
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 8: over again to grab their resources. And so learning more from,

685
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 8: for example, indigenous cultures that expanded across North America, South America,

686
00:32:53,840 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 8: Australia and how they learned to coexist in a new, desolate, isolated,

687
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 8: harsh environment, and how not only just the practical how

688
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 8: did they interact with the environments, but how their cultures

689
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 8: developed around sustainability or settling conflicts within their communities and

690
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 8: with other communities. I think that's all really valuable because

691
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 8: they have had communities and societies in these places for

692
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 8: tens of thousands of years, much longer than postcolonization era

693
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 8: has consisted. And I think there's so much we can

694
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,719
Speaker 8: learn from how that worked, and to just present an

695
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 8: alternative to colonization, because a lot of times, if you say,

696
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 8: maybe we don't want to use this wild West colonization

697
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 8: model in space, Westerns kind of shrug and go, okay, well,

698
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:39,959
Speaker 8: you know, so you want me to not go to space,

699
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 8: there are actually other options here.

700
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: So I've read a bunch of astronaut memoirs, and reading

701
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 1: those memoirs makes it very clear to me that astronauts

702
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 1: are humans too, and that humans I know, right, and

703
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: that humans go to space and they come back and

704
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: still do bad human things sometimes, which makes me wonder

705
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: what is governance and crime and punishment and stuff like

706
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 1: that going to look like on a Martian settlement. What

707
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 1: are your thoughts who's going to be in control in

708
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,280
Speaker 1: an early settlement when a crime happens, and what should

709
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:13,320
Speaker 1: we do about that stuff?

710
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 2: Yeah?

711
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 8: I think this is another question that hasn't been studied

712
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,839
Speaker 8: enough except by the reliable science fiction writers. We've been

713
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,319
Speaker 8: thinking about this stuff for ages. We think a lot

714
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 8: about how we're going to survive in space and the

715
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,879
Speaker 8: legal stuff about you know, the Homestead Act, who gets

716
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 8: to own mars et cetera. But I don't think we've

717
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 8: thought enough about the idea that, you know, hell is

718
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 8: other people, right, and so maybe our biggest dangers in

719
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,359
Speaker 8: space will be the people that we go up there with.

720
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 8: And that's the extreme argument for it. There's also just

721
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 8: the more minor. You know, what if you just have

722
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 8: a disagreement with a neighbor over something, whose turn it

723
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 8: is to take out the trash, or you stole my

724
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 8: space suit, whatnot? What do we do about it? And

725
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 8: here on Earth we have laws, we have legal systems,

726
00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 8: we have various different ways to address calm, but we

727
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,280
Speaker 8: need something in space. We can't just assume that everyone

728
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 8: will just perfectly get along. But it's unclear about how

729
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:08,919
Speaker 8: a lot of that's going to work. The Outer Space

730
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,320
Speaker 8: Treaty says people in space have to follow the laws

731
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 8: of their countries back home. That sort of handles the

732
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 8: issue of whose laws do we follow, But it's going

733
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 8: to get more complicated as people are living more long term,

734
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 8: especially if we move farther and farther away where it

735
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 8: takes a long time to call back to Earth. You know,

736
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 8: unless you've brought a judge and lawyers with you, you're going

737
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 8: to have to settle your disagreements where you are. And

738
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 8: then there's the bigger question, Okay, what happens if you

739
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,839
Speaker 8: decide that someone is guilty of whatever you've decided as

740
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 8: a crime in your space settlement, what do you do

741
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 8: with them? And when I ask people this, their knee

742
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,280
Speaker 8: jerk reaction is to say throw them out the airlock,

743
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 8: because that is what all the movies do. But if

744
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 8: you push a little farther, you can usually get people

745
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 8: to agree that maybe not every crime should carry capital punishment.

746
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 8: And then the next thing that they usually say, well,

747
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 8: we'll put them in space prison. But that also is tricky.

748
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 8: We don't have space prisons yet. We would have to

749
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 8: build them. That's going to take a lot of time, effort, money,

750
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 8: space like literal room, especially if we're doing something like

751
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 8: digging underground tunnels to live on Mars or something a

752
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 8: lot to dig another tunnel. You have to feed them

753
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 8: and give them air and radiation protection and water and

754
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 8: heat power. Someone has to guard them. Maybe you've removed

755
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 8: that person from the labor pool and maybe you don't

756
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 8: have a lot of labor to go around. Is this

757
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,840
Speaker 8: actually what we want to do? And usually at that

758
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 8: point in the conversation, they say, Okay, well, what's the alternative,

759
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 8: because this is another case where Americans in particular don't

760
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,919
Speaker 8: really know of any other way to handle crime because

761
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 8: we're a very prison focused culture. But again, there's so

762
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 8: many examples on Earth of ways that especially small communities

763
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 8: address behavior that's not desired. I called that in their communities,

764
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,800
Speaker 8: and in a way that makes sure that the victim

765
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 8: of a crime feels safe and is made whole, the

766
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 8: person who committed the crime is unlikely to do it again,

767
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 8: and that the community is as a whole feel safe.

768
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 8: And there's ways to do that without building up person.

769
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 8: And so that's what I've been encouraging, so that we

770
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 8: try to think about that ahead of time, because no

771
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 8: matter what we come up with, we need to come

772
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 8: up with it ahead of time. We don't want to

773
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 8: wait till the last minute here and then have to

774
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 8: decide under duress, because I think that'll probably lead to

775
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 8: unpleasant outcomes for everyone involved.

776
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:31,360
Speaker 2: Everyone out at airlock.

777
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,240
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean it's clean. I guess it always looks

778
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 8: really dramatic in the movies. I get the appeal, but

779
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 8: that's a quick way to kill everyone off, and that's

780
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 8: not usually the goal of a space settlement.

781
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 3: And again, if business is involved, are we giving businesses

782
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 3: the right to set laws in territories they control? You know,

783
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 3: that might make sense, but I feel a little weird

784
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 3: about giving Elon Musk right to execute whoever he thinks

785
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 3: is not, you know, following his laws.

786
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 8: Yeah, everything I was talking about were examples of two

787
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 8: people in the community sort of hurting each other. There's

788
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 8: also the protections you might need to protect an individual

789
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 8: from the community. And that might mean there's an oppressed

790
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 8: group and the government of the space settlement is oppressing

791
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 8: a minority group, for example, how do we protect those people?

792
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 8: It might mean it's a labor workforce that's getting exploited

793
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 8: by the company that runs the space settlement. What can

794
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,839
Speaker 8: they do about it? You can't really quit and go

795
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,280
Speaker 8: home when you're in a space settlement. It's really probably

796
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 8: going to be a lot harder to go on strike

797
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 8: or protest if you're in a place where the government

798
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 8: or the employer can just turn down the oxygen and

799
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 8: make you all go to sleep. And so there's that

800
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 8: kind of levels of legal protection needed as well.

801
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,320
Speaker 1: So I was thinking about writing about punishment for a

802
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:45,319
Speaker 1: city on Mars, and we didn't end up deciding to

803
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 1: tackle it, but we did read about how you get

804
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 1: people in line in communal settings, and like the hutterrightes

805
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: that's a religious group. They're very insular. They do trade

806
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 1: with the outside world, but they have a very elaborate

807
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 1: like shunning procedure people who don't follow the rules, where

808
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 1: if you're an adult who's not following the rules, sometimes

809
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 1: you have to like sleep in the children house as

810
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 1: a way of just sort of like showing your temporary demotion.

811
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 1: And in a community where like if you get kicked out,

812
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 1: you no longer get to see maybe your parents, or

813
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,879
Speaker 1: your kids, or your wife. Shunning is a very good

814
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 1: method of punishment that doesn't require a prison, and it

815
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 1: usually is coupled with almost immediately when they repent and

816
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 1: stop doing it, you open your arms and welcome them

817
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: back in, because otherwise, how psychologically awful would it be

818
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,240
Speaker 1: to be stuck in a community where everybody is shunning

819
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 1: you and treating you awfully. Do you have like other

820
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 1: examples of how it works in other communities.

821
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think you make a good point there that

822
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,720
Speaker 8: leaving open the door for redemption and to rejoining the community.

823
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 8: Is going to be super vital, because yeah, otherwise the

824
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,399
Speaker 8: person just can't fit back in and you've lost them,

825
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 8: whether you're throwing them out an air locker or just

826
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 8: locking them up forever. One of the examples I was

827
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 8: given during my podcast was about a community in Ethiopia,

828
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 8: and I'm not Ethiopians, so it'll be difficult for me

829
00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,320
Speaker 8: to describe its completely accurately, but she told a beautiful

830
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 8: story about how when someone in the community harms someone else,

831
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 8: everyone gathers them together under a great tree, and individually,

832
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 8: each member of the community goes to this person and

833
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 8: it says, do you remember when I broke my leg

834
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 8: and you help me bring the crops in? Do you

835
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 8: remember when I was sick and you brought me medicine?

836
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 8: And reminds the person of how they are a member

837
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,359
Speaker 8: of the community, a valued member of the community, and

838
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:20,240
Speaker 8: that they are still accepted, but that they've done harm

839
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 8: and here's how you can address this harm and be

840
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 8: welcome back in, which is the sort of thing again

841
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 8: as an American, as a Westerner, just sounds too good

842
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 8: to be true, like it can't possibly work, But there

843
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,359
Speaker 8: is a lot of work being done in the US

844
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 8: in particular on what's called restorative justice, which is this

845
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,879
Speaker 8: idea that you can figure out ways to make sure

846
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 8: the victim feel safe and is made whole, and make

847
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 8: sure that the perpetrator acknowledges and addresses what they've done

848
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 8: without prison. It's just so hard to describe what that

849
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,720
Speaker 8: looks like in very simple terms because it usually takes effort,

850
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 8: it takes conversation. The community itself needs to help facilitate

851
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 8: that conversation, and it looks different for every crime, in

852
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:06,399
Speaker 8: every interaction, and so it's much more complicated than just saying, well,

853
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 8: lock them up, but it tends to have better outcomes,

854
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 8: and there's a lot of research being done on that

855
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 8: in the US right now. I think some of this

856
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 8: will get easier in a small community. I think a

857
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 8: lot of it is related to culture, and it's hard

858
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 8: to predict how a culture of a space settlement is

859
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:24,720
Speaker 8: going to evolve away from the culture we have today.

860
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 8: Being isolated and being so interdependent on other humans, I

861
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 8: think will make things like shunning be a bigger threat

862
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 8: and help people not engage in harmful behavior to others.

863
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 8: But I don't know. These sci fi authors have imagined

864
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:39,839
Speaker 8: it going the other way and have it make us

865
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,320
Speaker 8: worse people, or make it more likely that some tyrant

866
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,719
Speaker 8: will take over and keep everyone online. It's not clear

867
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 8: yet how it's going to go.

868
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,280
Speaker 3: Well, what's the sort of worst crime that's been committed

869
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 3: in space so far?

870
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 8: I don't think off the top of my head. Kelly

871
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 8: can help me hear that there has been anything officially

872
00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 8: considered a legal crime committed in space so far. There

873
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 8: is often pointed to an event with the Skylab crew

874
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 8: that was at the time by the newspapers called a

875
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 8: strike a protest. It was said that the crew was

876
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 8: mad at NASA and churned off the radio and said

877
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 8: they weren't going to work for the day. That's not

878
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 8: actually how it went down. It was much less dramatic

879
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 8: than that. It wasn't a mutiny, for example, And I

880
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 8: think so far it's been mostly professional disagreements at that level.

881
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 1: I think there was one astronaut whose partner I think

882
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 1: they had like broken up, and she went into her

883
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 1: banking accounts.

884
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 8: Oh, that's right, from space, from.

885
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 1: Space, and so it was like a small law that

886
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: was broken in space. Well, it feels small to me

887
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 1: relative to murder, but a smaller law that was broken

888
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 1: in space.

889
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 2: And then there was an.

890
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 1: International incident where one of the soyez is so these

891
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 1: are like the vehicles that bring people from Russia or

892
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 1: Kazakhstan to the International Space Station, was found to have

893
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 1: a hole thrilled in the side.

894
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 8: Of it, a tiny damage.

895
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And.

896
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 1: It wasn't clear if that was because a technician who

897
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 1: was building this drilled the whole and then was like ah, crud,

898
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:04,839
Speaker 1: and then like patched it poorly and the patch fell

899
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: off in space. But Russia was saying that it was

900
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 1: one of the astronauts on the US side who was

901
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 1: having a mental health crisis and wanted to go home,

902
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 1: so they drilled a hole to try to push an

903
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:15,320
Speaker 1: emergency return.

904
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 8: Yeah. I don't think that was proven though, that's right.

905
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 1: No, no, no, it wasn't and all of the US astronauts

906
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 1: are like, no, absolutely, that's not what.

907
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 2: It was happening.

908
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 1: But I think what's interesting about that is, you know,

909
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 1: the International Space Station has multiple nations represented, and depending

910
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 1: on which module you're in, there's different jurisdictions and depending

911
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 1: on what country the astronauts came from, and in the end,

912
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 1: they kind of weren't really able to figure out what

913
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 1: to do about it. And so I think if anything

914
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 1: more serious happened, I don't know what they would do

915
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:44,280
Speaker 1: or how that would be dealt with. It gets complicated,

916
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 1: I think when you've got multiple nations together.

917
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 8: Yeah. I also think the space agencies are incentivized not

918
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 8: to talk about stories like this. I mean, they're going

919
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 8: to report it, especially you know in the US, but

920
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 8: the news is going to get their hands on it

921
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,359
Speaker 8: and probably blow it out of proportion. But it's not

922
00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 8: like NASA wants to get out the idea that this

923
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 8: kind of happening in space. I'm not saying they're covering

924
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 8: up crimes. There's a lot of things about astronaut privacy

925
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 8: that NASA really keeps more private. There have been some

926
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 8: cases in analog situations. So they do these experiments down

927
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,840
Speaker 8: on Earth where they seal people up in a small

928
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 8: habitat for a certain amount of time to test crew

929
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 8: dynamics and also things like can they recycle their food

930
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 8: and things like that, Or they go out to isolated

931
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 8: place like the Antarctic or the Arctic and live in

932
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 8: an isolated environment for a while to ten they're on Mars.

933
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 8: There have been cases there where there's been interpersonal conflict

934
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 8: and to the level of sexual harassment and conflicts like that,

935
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 8: and so I don't think there's any reason to assume

936
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,280
Speaker 8: that kind of behavior won't happen in space as well.

937
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 1: I do love your point that we need to figure

938
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 1: out what our plan is ahead of time. I was

939
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: reading about naval punishment and like, they didn't have space

940
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,959
Speaker 1: on the ship for a prison, and they didn't want

941
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 1: to have a member of the crew not working and

942
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 1: then maybe another member of the crew watching them not

943
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 1: work and making sure they don't And so the flogging

944
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 1: was there answer, Like if you hit someone, you beat

945
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 1: them quickly, then they can return right back to work,

946
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 1: and it's a severe, immediate punishment. And so I think

947
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:08,799
Speaker 1: it's important for us to decide which one of these

948
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 1: things do we want to be trying when we move

949
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 1: out into space, and which punishment regime do we want

950
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:14,359
Speaker 1: to take with us.

951
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 3: I just want to say that flogging works really well

952
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 3: in my research group as the motivations for.

953
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 1: We have a book on our shelf called In Defense

954
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: of Flogging. It's an economists take on why it's an

955
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 1: efficient punishment system where maybe you'd rather get flogged than

956
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 1: spend five years in prison, or thrown out or thrown

957
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 1: out the airlock. So anyway, lots of options for punishment.

958
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: Let's take a break, and when we come back, we're

959
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 1: going to talk about babies in space.

960
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 2: All right, Space babies erica ethical or not.

961
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 8: I find space babies to be the cruelest creatures. The

962
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 8: idea of having babies in space is obviously a fascinating one,

963
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:12,280
Speaker 8: and it's also crucial to the whole idea of having

964
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 8: a permanent space settlement. You can't have a space settlement

965
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,320
Speaker 8: stand on its own if you have to keep shipping

966
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 8: humans from Earth. So the question of whether we can

967
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:27,880
Speaker 8: produce more humans in space is both an important one,

968
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 8: both scientifically and ethically. So the scientific part is the

969
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 8: tough one. We don't actually know if humans can have

970
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 8: babies in space. We don't know that about any stage

971
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 8: of the process, about conceiving, about growing a fetus in

972
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 8: utero in a healthy way. We don't know how harder

973
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 8: or easy delivering a baby would work in space. And

974
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 8: we don't know if children can grow in a healthy

975
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 8: way in the absence of, for example, Earth's gravitational field,

976
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:56,240
Speaker 8: or if all this radiation exposure you get in space

977
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:58,400
Speaker 8: is going to cause problems all along the way. So

978
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 8: tons of interesting scientific questions there, but we also don't

979
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:06,760
Speaker 8: know how to even ethically study those questions because most

980
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 8: bioethicists and medical researchers will tell you it's very ethically

981
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 8: murky to perform science experiments on pregnant people and fetuses,

982
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 8: especially the fetuses that can't consent. So it's tricky, and

983
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 8: I think that there's a good chance that the ethicist

984
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 8: will be arguing about this while some space tourists are

985
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 8: just making it happen someday, and we're going to end

986
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:33,840
Speaker 8: up with this experiment happening unmonitored and unprotected. So it

987
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:35,799
Speaker 8: could be that we can't do it. It could be

988
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 8: the humans can't reproduce in space. That's going to put

989
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 8: a big damper on people's plans for conquering the universe,

990
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 8: and we will have to reanalyze all of our plans

991
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 8: for space settlement. It's also possible there's some middle ground

992
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 8: here where we'll be able to do it, but maybe

993
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 8: it'll be a lot more difficult, maybe it'd be less likely.

994
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 8: Maybe we'll need some sort of extra technology help, like

995
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:58,879
Speaker 8: artificial gravity or radiation shielding or artificial wounds, which could

996
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 8: turn into a thing where wealthy space settlers can afford

997
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 8: to have children, or you have to get special permit

998
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 8: from the space government to use the artificial womb and

999
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,759
Speaker 8: have babies, which could cause a lot of issues. And

1000
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 8: maybe it'll be super easy and will be superfertile in

1001
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 8: space and have babies everywhere, which will lead to other problems,

1002
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:21,319
Speaker 8: like maybe we have an overpopulated space settlement and we

1003
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 8: have to figure out what to do about that, and

1004
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 8: boy do we have examples of that on Earth, and

1005
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 8: how it has led to government trying to control fertility

1006
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 8: and punishing people for having too many children or forcing

1007
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 8: them to be sterilized so that they can't have more children.

1008
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 8: Often throughout history this has in particular led to people

1009
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 8: deciding to limit other groups' fertilities, but only for certain people.

1010
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 8: We want to limit population growth, but only for these

1011
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 8: people we don't think should be reproducing, and that's just

1012
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:55,760
Speaker 8: eugenics and leads to all sorts of other really terrible

1013
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 8: outcomes that could happen in space. And in space we

1014
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 8: could go the other way around too and have underpopulation

1015
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:04,880
Speaker 8: and have questions about whether we can force people to

1016
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 8: have children which also has a few parallels throughout history

1017
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 8: as well, and leads to things like outlawing abortion, birth control,

1018
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 8: knowing about contraception, and things like that.

1019
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 3: It feels to me like space is sort of putting

1020
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 3: a spotlight on what's already kind of a tricky question,

1021
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 3: you know, about is it ethical to have kids? We

1022
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:27,319
Speaker 3: try to avoid ever restricting people from having kids, but

1023
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 3: you could also always just ask questions, like some people

1024
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 3: in their living conditions, should they be having kids? You know,

1025
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,759
Speaker 3: if I want to like set up camp near a volcano,

1026
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 3: is it ethical for me to have kids, knowing that

1027
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 3: the kids could be like bathed in lava one day

1028
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 3: as they sleep. Nobody tells me I can't have kids

1029
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 3: or I shouldn't have kids. Lots of people out there

1030
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 3: are terrible parents, but nobody like gave them an exam

1031
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 3: and says, hey, are you going to be a reasonable parent.

1032
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 3: Why shouldn't we just apply the same like lass a

1033
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 3: fair thing to space and say, hey, you're going to

1034
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:01,760
Speaker 3: have kids in space. Maybe they won't just take correctly,

1035
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 3: maybe they'll get cancer, maybe they'll end up nine feet tall.

1036
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:05,399
Speaker 3: It's on you.

1037
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 8: Yeah, if you think about what we owe to the children,

1038
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 8: like what rights do they have here? That does have

1039
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 8: interesting questions. Maybe we're making them more at risk for

1040
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 8: radiation induced illness, like you mentioned with your lava example.

1041
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 8: Maybe they can grow and be healthy and have healthy

1042
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 8: lives on Mars, but because they're growing in a lower

1043
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 8: gravity environment, they can't ever return to Earth because they'll

1044
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:31,799
Speaker 8: collapse and die. Is there something unethical about that? Are

1045
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 8: we somehow taking away their birthright to go back to

1046
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 8: the planet that they evolved on or will they not

1047
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 8: care because they're not from Earth and they're too cool

1048
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:39,879
Speaker 8: for Earth And it's not a big deal.

1049
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,240
Speaker 3: I mean, Kelly's decided to have her kids in Virginia.

1050
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:44,800
Speaker 3: Now they have to tell people they're from Virginia. Not

1051
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:46,719
Speaker 3: to overcome that their whole life when they could have

1052
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 3: grown up in California. How do you deal with that, Kelly?

1053
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,799
Speaker 1: It's beautiful here and I think they're very happy, and

1054
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:54,640
Speaker 1: I feel bad for your California kids.

1055
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 3: Well, clearly they're brainwashed. Propaganda is everywhere, but there.

1056
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:01,799
Speaker 8: Are exemples of this on Earth where people have to

1057
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 8: make the really tough decision about whether to become refugees

1058
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:07,240
Speaker 8: certain parts of the world. Are they going to decide

1059
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 8: to take their kids on this really dangerous journey, like

1060
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 8: a rocket trip to a new place they've never seen before,

1061
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:14,320
Speaker 8: where potentially they're never going to be able to return

1062
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:17,799
Speaker 8: to their home country. That's a similar decision, and on

1063
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:20,360
Speaker 8: Earth we let parents make that decision. They have to

1064
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:22,359
Speaker 8: make that decision for their kids if their kids can't

1065
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 8: make it, and generally what we hope is that the

1066
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:27,439
Speaker 8: parents are working in the best interest of the kids.

1067
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 8: In those cases, it's usually because the kids are at

1068
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 8: risk if they stay where they are. It's sort of

1069
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 8: a different idea. We're talking about space because at the moment,

1070
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 8: there's no asteroid headed for the Earth. So most people

1071
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 8: who want to go raise kids in space, it's just

1072
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 8: because they want to, not because they necessarily know that

1073
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 8: it's going to give their kids a better life. But

1074
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 8: you're right, we have a bit more of a hands

1075
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 8: off attitude here on Earth, and we let people raise

1076
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 8: their kids how they want, but not completely. There's plenty

1077
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 8: of limitations that the state puts on what people do

1078
00:51:56,680 --> 00:52:00,399
Speaker 8: with their kids different ways. In different places in the US,

1079
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 8: they're required to have an education sometimes that's better monitored

1080
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 8: than in other places, and in other places around the world,

1081
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,759
Speaker 8: there's more restrictions on whether you can or can't make

1082
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,719
Speaker 8: decisions about your own ability to have kids. And this

1083
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 8: all comes back to the balance between someone's own bodily

1084
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:20,240
Speaker 8: autonomy that they should be able to decide what happens

1085
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 8: with their body or not, versus what society needs or

1086
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:27,399
Speaker 8: wants from them, which when it comes to population level,

1087
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 8: stuff is affected by whether people are having kids round.

1088
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:33,959
Speaker 1: So we've kind of scratched the surface of the many

1089
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 1: interesting ethical questions that you brought up in your book.

1090
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 1: Sometimes it can feel sort of overwhelming and helpless to

1091
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:43,439
Speaker 1: think about all of this stuff. What are some options

1092
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:44,880
Speaker 1: for things that we can do now to try to

1093
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 1: make sure that we do settle space when we get

1094
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:48,759
Speaker 1: there to that point that we do it in an

1095
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:49,719
Speaker 1: ethical and just way.

1096
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:53,280
Speaker 8: Well, just having these conversations at all is super important,

1097
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:56,239
Speaker 8: because the alternative of just giving it a go and

1098
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 8: seeing what happens, I think, is not the best choice.

1099
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:00,480
Speaker 8: So any level of conversations, more.

1100
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 3: Conversation, launch baby launch.

1101
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 8: At any level of conversation is good. Encouraging people to

1102
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 8: have these conversations at the decision maker level is very important.

1103
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 8: Reading Kelly's book, I think purchasing and reading Kelly's.

1104
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:16,240
Speaker 2: Book is super important with yours.

1105
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:21,480
Speaker 8: Yeah, absolutely by books about this topic, and as an individual,

1106
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 8: I think definitely trying to learn more about history if

1107
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 8: you're interested in space is very important. It's not immediately

1108
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 8: obvious that should be the case, but as we've talked about,

1109
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:32,960
Speaker 8: there's plenty of examples from history, and not just the

1110
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:35,480
Speaker 8: history of your part of the world. I think North Americans,

1111
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:37,480
Speaker 8: like myself, focused a little too much on the history

1112
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 8: of North American colonization, but again, all of human history

1113
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 8: to learn from. Let's do that. I think anyone who's

1114
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:47,040
Speaker 8: working anywhere near space, whether you're in an astronomy department

1115
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:49,840
Speaker 8: at university, or you're working for a space startup, or

1116
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:52,920
Speaker 8: you're working in government regulation, there's plenty of ways you

1117
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 8: can work towards making your company more ethical, making them

1118
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:57,919
Speaker 8: make the right decisions. But I also think it's really

1119
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:00,799
Speaker 8: important to look at your organization and see if it

1120
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:02,759
Speaker 8: does it embody the kind of values you want to

1121
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 8: see in a space settlement. Is there a labor being exploited,

1122
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 8: are there people being marginalized, or is everyone being treated well?

1123
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 8: Because whatever values we have in our society today is

1124
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 8: what's going to get pushed forward into space in the future.

1125
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 8: So the better we can treat each other now on Earth,

1126
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:21,880
Speaker 8: the easier it'll be to transfer those norms into space.

1127
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 8: And that's just as important as building a good legal

1128
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 8: system or safe technologies, is to make sure that the

1129
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 8: values we want to see in our descendants in the

1130
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 8: future are what we're actually actively working towards for ourselves. Now,

1131
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 8: we can't just wait and say, well, they'll figure it out,

1132
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 8: they'll be better in space. We don't need to do

1133
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 8: that hard work. We have to do it for them.

1134
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree, And I think a lot of people

1135
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:43,120
Speaker 3: see space settlement in their minds as some sort of

1136
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:45,880
Speaker 3: utopia where we go there and we don't bring any

1137
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:48,520
Speaker 3: of the problems we have here, and that we somehow

1138
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:51,359
Speaker 3: all magically get along. But we all know that we're

1139
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:53,360
Speaker 3: going to make the same mistakes. Somebody's going to invent

1140
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:57,000
Speaker 3: white chocolate even if we don't bring it with us, right, Like,

1141
00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:00,239
Speaker 3: this is just who we are as humans. We I

1142
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 3: agree with you. We need to acknowledge that and face

1143
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:04,280
Speaker 3: those and figure some of this stuff out before it happens.

1144
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:06,640
Speaker 8: That's right. Space is only a blank slate till we

1145
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 8: show up.

1146
00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 2: That's right.

1147
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:11,359
Speaker 1: So if folks want to stay in touch with Erica,

1148
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:14,359
Speaker 1: they can go to Erica nesvuld dot com. That's E

1149
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 1: R I KA ne E s v O l d

1150
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:19,440
Speaker 1: dot com and you can sign up for her newsletter

1151
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:23,279
Speaker 1: to stay up to date on Erica updates. Absolutely well,

1152
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being on the show, Erica.

1153
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:26,759
Speaker 1: It was I was going to say a lot of fun,

1154
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,239
Speaker 1: but maybe space ethics isn't always supposed to be fun.

1155
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 1: But it was certainly very informative and I enjoyed talking

1156
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:31,879
Speaker 1: to you.

1157
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:33,760
Speaker 8: I had a great time talking about you think.

1158
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:36,360
Speaker 3: And I think the takeaway message is not we shouldn't

1159
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:38,520
Speaker 3: settle space, so that we can't settle space, but then

1160
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:41,120
Speaker 3: we have to do it thoughtfully and carefully. We shouldn't

1161
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:44,319
Speaker 3: just rush into it and do it because it seems fun, right,

1162
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:46,960
Speaker 3: So we don't have to feel like we're being pessimist

1163
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:48,240
Speaker 3: about it. We're just being thoughtful.

1164
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:50,800
Speaker 8: That's right. And we'll leave the white chocolate behind.

1165
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1166
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:57,279
Speaker 2: That is the right note to end on.

1167
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:07,440
Speaker 1: Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is produced by iHeartRadio.

1168
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:10,200
Speaker 2: We would love to hear from you, We really would.

1169
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:13,120
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1170
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:15,000
Speaker 3: extraordinary universe.

1171
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:18,040
Speaker 1: We want to know your thoughts on recent shows, suggestions

1172
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 1: for future shows.

1173
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 2: If you contact us, we will get back to you.

1174
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:25,239
Speaker 3: We really mean it. We answer every message. Email us

1175
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:28,040
Speaker 3: at Questions at Danielandkelly dot.

1176
00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:29,560
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1177
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:33,520
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1178
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:34,480
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1179
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:37,440
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1180
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:39,160
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