1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: On this episode of news World, My guest is a 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:11,479 Speaker 1: longtime friend and fellow historian, doctor Alan Gelzo. He is 3 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: director of the James Madison Program Initiative on Politics and Statesmanship, 4 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: and Senior Research Scholar in the Council of the Humanities 5 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: at Princeton University. He is the New York Times bestselling 6 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: author of Gettysburg, and his new book about the Civil 7 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: War Confederate General Robert E. Lee Alife, is out this Tuesday. Alan, 8 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: I really appreciate your taking the time to share with us, 9 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: and I have to start with a really simple question. 10 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: What led you to decide in the middle of the 11 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: current left wing maelstrom that Robert E. Lee was the 12 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: right topic? Well, in the first place, the mailstrom hadn't 13 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: quite started when I started this project. I really began 14 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: work on this after I had finished Gettysburg, The Last Invasion, that, 15 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: of course, was published in twenty thirteen, and by the 16 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:13,960 Speaker 1: time The Hurly Burly Over the book was done, which 17 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: was also tied into The Hurly Burly Over one hundred 18 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 1: and fiftieth anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg, I looked 19 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: around thinking about a topic and began feeling out the 20 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: ground around Robert E. Lee, and then in twenty fourteen 21 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: made it official with my publisher, and I've been working 22 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 1: at it ever since. But that does mean that I 23 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: actually started this project before much of the explosions over 24 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: Lee had rocked the environment. At that point, Lee was 25 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:45,960 Speaker 1: not nearly the touchstone for frenzy that he has become, 26 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: especially since twenty seventeen and Charlottesville. What led me to 27 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: Lee was probably some odd questions because I'm coming at 28 00:01:55,600 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: this as a Yankee from Yankee Land. I lived almost 29 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: all of my life in Pennsylvania. I've never lived south 30 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: of the Mason Dixon line, and I've written mostly about 31 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: Lincoln and about the Union rather than about the Confederacy, 32 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: so this was somewhat different terrain. Why was I venturing 33 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: into it? Two basic reasons. One is when you look 34 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: at the landscape of the Civil War and you look 35 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: at the great figures that you could write about, Well, 36 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: there's Lincoln. Yes, there's also Grant. But Grant has been 37 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: the subject of eight freestanding biographies in the last thirty 38 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,239 Speaker 1: five years, each one of them longer than the one preceding. 39 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,679 Speaker 1: At the most recent one, ron Chernow's topped out it 40 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: over a thousand pages. Then you could turn to William 41 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 1: to comes to Sherman. Well, he's had ten biocrifies in 42 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 1: the last thirty five years, so that field has been 43 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: pretty well plowed up. After that, you start to get 44 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: figures like George McClellan, or George Thomas or William Rosecranz. Oh, 45 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,119 Speaker 1: they're not nearly quite so interesting to work with. So 46 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: I turned my attention because if you're looking for the 47 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: next really important figure in the Civil War, when you 48 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 1: turn away from Lincoln, if you turn away from Union subjects, 49 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: you only have Robert E. Lee. And as it turned out, 50 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: Robert E. Lee had not had the kind of thick 51 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: biographical snowfall that these other figures had had. There was 52 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: the great four volume R. E. Lee written by Douglas 53 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: Southall Freeman in the nineteen thirties. One appeelt surprise, but 54 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: Freeman almost sucked all the air out of the subject 55 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: because his work was so long and so comprehensive. Following 56 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: on Freeman, there had been a handful of biographies, most 57 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: recently Amory Thomas's nineteen ninety five biography of Lee. But 58 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: that was nineteen ninety five. That was twenty five years ago. 59 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: So I thought, well, perhaps there's an opportunity here. Perhaps 60 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: the time is ripe to consider Robert E. Lee. So 61 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: that's one reason I'm looking for a major civil topic 62 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: to write about. Lee seems the most likely. But there's 63 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: another thing too. I'm intrigued by this odd question. How 64 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: do you write the biography of someone who has committed treason? 65 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: In some respects, It's easy to write about Lincoln. He's 66 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: a great man. You can admire him without stint. Likewise, 67 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: for Grant, this remarkable man who rises in just eight 68 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 1: years from clerking and his father's a leather goods store 69 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: in Galena, Illinois, to becoming President of the United States, 70 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: even Sherman and Sherman does not quote unquote rise quite 71 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: to the heights of the others, but he makes up 72 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 1: for it in the sheer colorfulness of his character. But Lee, 73 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: when you venture onto the ground of Robert E. Lee, 74 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: you are dealing with someone who committed treason. I don't 75 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: really have a better word for it. I don't enjoy 76 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: throwing the word around. But my father was a career soldier, 77 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: He took the oath. My son is a soldier, as 78 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: a captain in the army. He took the oath. I 79 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: took the oath when I joined the National Council in 80 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: the Humanities back in twenty six and I take that seriously. 81 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: All of us have taken that seriously. So I look 82 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: at Robert E. Lee and I see someone who took 83 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: an oath to the United States of America when he 84 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: was commissioned in eighteen twenty nine, and no one released 85 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,039 Speaker 1: him from that oath. Instead, he raised his hand against 86 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 1: the United States, against the flag, against the Constitution. That's serious. 87 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: How do you write the biography of somebody like that. 88 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: It's a category that I call difficult biography. There are 89 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 1: some biographies that are easy to write because the people 90 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 1: that you deal with are easy, as I was saying, 91 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: like Lincoln. But what about the people who are inconsistent? 92 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: What about the people who make disastrous mistakes? How do 93 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 1: you write a biography of Neville Chamberlain? How can you 94 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: write about a Chamberlain who just totally opaque, just did 95 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,719 Speaker 1: not see Hitler for what he was even how do 96 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: you write easily about Ulysses Grant, who issues an anti 97 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: Semitic order in eighteen sixty two, But especially, how do 98 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: you write a biography of someone like Lee. So that 99 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: took me into the grounds of what I'm calling difficult biography, 100 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: and I thought, now here's a challenge. I want to 101 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: see what comes out of this. So for both of 102 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: those reasons, because he is a target there waiting, but 103 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: also because he is a different kind of biography that 104 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: I had ever attempted. And so I went to work 105 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 1: on Robert D. Lee. And next week the book will 106 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: be out and we will see the results. I'm curious, 107 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: as you immersed yourself in Lee, what was the biggest 108 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: surprise to you. The biggest surprise is what an impact 109 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: was made on him by the absence of his father. 110 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: The psychologist will tell you, and I don't mean to 111 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: psychologize Lee. I'm not a licensed psychoanalyst, but the psychologist 112 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: will tell you that there's probably no trauma in someone's 113 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: life worse than the loss of a parent before adolescence. 114 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: And in Lee's case, what he lost was a famous parent, 115 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: and that was Lighthorse Harry Lee, the famous cavalry commander 116 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 1: of George Washington in the American Revolution, one of that 117 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: circle of young men that Washington drew about him, like 118 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: John Lawns and Alexander Hamilton, and Lafayette. Lighthorse Harry Lee 119 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: was one of them. Lighthorse Harry was a talented commander. 120 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: He really made his name as a soldier, but once 121 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: the Revolution was over, it was a steady corkscrew downwards 122 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: for him. Bad political decisions, bad financial decisions. He burned 123 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 1: through every bit of cash, lost control of the estate 124 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: that Robert was born on Stratford Hall, and then got 125 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: beaten to a pulp by an anti federalist mob by 126 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: a Democratic mob in Baltimore in eighteen thirteen, where he 127 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: had gone to support a fellow federalist newspaper editor. And 128 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: after that, Lighthorse Harry takes off for the West Indies. 129 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: Now he's saying, oh, I'm going to recuperate, I'm going 130 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: to restore my fortunes. Robert never sees him again. Harry 131 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: bounced around the West Indies, finally returned to the United 132 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:36,959 Speaker 1: States mortally ill, made landfall in Georgia, died there two 133 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,959 Speaker 1: weeks later. Never saw Virginia again, never saw his family again, 134 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: never saw Robert again. So Robert last sees his father 135 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: when he is what six years old. That's it. And 136 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: what's more, it's his father's reputation too. His father's reputation 137 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: is that of a spendthrift and unreliable and undependable. And 138 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 1: the message that that sent was don't get mixed up 139 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: with the leaves. Don't get connected to the leaves, because 140 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: you'll regret it. And Robert grows up bearing that burden, 141 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: and that weighs on him all of his life. When 142 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: he's growing up, people are always saying, ah, this is 143 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 1: Robert Lee. Oh, he's the son of light Horse Harry, 144 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: never once reading what must have gone on in his 145 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: mind when he's being introduced that way, when he's being 146 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: identified through this father who was not a father who 147 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: deserted him. And I think what that spawns in Robert 148 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: Lee are three things that are really important for understanding 149 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 1: his character. One is he's a perfectionist, and you see 150 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: this all through his life, even as a general in 151 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 1: command of the Army of Northern Virginia. He's a perfectionist. 152 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,199 Speaker 1: And no wonder he's a perfectionist because in some senses, 153 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: what he's trying to do, he's trying to make right 154 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: all the mistakes that his father made and that other 155 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 1: members of his family. He had an older half brother, 156 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 1: By the way, it was also named Harry Lee. Harry 157 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: Lee botched things even worse than light Horse Harry. And 158 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,839 Speaker 1: I won't enter into the details because they are seem 159 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,719 Speaker 1: even by nineteenth century standards, but let's put it this way. 160 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: It earned him the nickname black Horse Harry Lee and 161 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: exile to France. So Robert is growing up in this 162 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: environment where he has to cleanse the Lee's name. He 163 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: has to sponge away all these deficits, and it makes 164 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: him a real perfectionist. He demands a lot of himself, 165 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: he demands a lot of others. He has the demeanor 166 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: of great dignity. But get underneath that demeanor and there 167 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:47,439 Speaker 1: is a vivid temper. And his staffords during the war 168 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: remark on that Walter Taylor, who was one of his 169 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: military secretaries, one of his adjutant. Taylor said, you know, 170 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,719 Speaker 1: you get Lee annoyed, and you will pay for it. 171 00:10:57,800 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: And he said you could tell that Lee's temper was 172 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: rising because his color would change a bit. He would 173 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: get reddish, and he'd have this little jerk to his neck, Mum, no, no, 174 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 1: and then it would explode. Then afterwards Lee would say 175 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: to somebody like Taylor, as he did say to Taylor, 176 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: in fact, why did you let that man into my tent? 177 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: Why did you let him make me lose my temper? 178 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: It's a blaming Taylor for it. So there's a real 179 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: perfectionism that is there that shows up at moments like that. 180 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: The other two factors that Lee oscillates between are a 181 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 1: yearning for independence. He's sick of apologizing for his father 182 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: and for the others. He wants to stand on his own. 183 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: He wants people to recognize him and take him for himself, 184 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: and he really wants that independence, but he also wants security. Security, 185 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: of course, is what his father robbed him of it, 186 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: and the problem is that independence on security don't always 187 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: go together. Security is what keeps him from the army 188 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,079 Speaker 1: from the day he's commissioned in eighteen twenty nine right 189 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: up until he stands in his resignation to Winfield Scott 190 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: on April twentieth, eighteen sixty one. He didn't particularly enjoy 191 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: being in the army. He was in the Corps of Engineers. 192 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: He was a very good engineer. But he's always in 193 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: his correspondence he's always talking about how I'd love to 194 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: say goodbye to my uncle Sam. I'd love to be 195 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 1: out on my own. But as much as he wanted 196 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: that independence, he also wanted the security the army gave 197 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,199 Speaker 1: because in the United States Army in the pre Civil 198 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: War years, it really was a sinecure. There was no 199 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: retirement system, so you had officers who stayed in the army, 200 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: stayed on the payrolls from the day they were commissioned 201 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: until the day they keeled over as Nanagarians, and there 202 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:54,239 Speaker 1: was no law that inhibited that. So you had security. 203 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 1: And the army might not be pleasant, but security, and 204 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: he wanted security. So he oscillates some of these things perfectionism, security, independence, 205 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: and he never can quite nail them down in the 206 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:10,199 Speaker 1: right order until the last five years of his life. 207 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: And that's when, after the Civil War is over, he 208 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 1: goes out and becomes president of Washington College in Lexington, Virginia. 209 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:24,319 Speaker 1: It was the strangest decision among all the decisions that 210 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: he made, because leedson't particularly like educational institutions. He'd been 211 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: offered a job teaching at West Point turned it down. 212 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: He said, I'm just not made of the stuff that 213 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,079 Speaker 1: gets up in front of a classroom and talks to students. 214 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: He's ordered over his objections to become superintendent of West 215 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: Point in the eighteen fifties. He hates the job. He 216 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: can't wait when it's done. And he actually at that 217 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: point leaves the Corps of Engineers and accepts a commission 218 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,559 Speaker 1: as lieutenant colonel of the second Cavalry down in Texas, 219 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: chasing command shees and bandits around the countryside. He preferred 220 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: that to West Point. It's not until you get to 221 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 1: those four years. And he accepts this job as president 222 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: of Washington College, a college which was almost bankrupt, it 223 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: hardly had a pulse. Lee comes in there. He puts 224 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: the place back up and its feet expands, the student body, 225 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: brings it to a point where it's literally a rival 226 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: to the University of Virginia. And surprise of surprises, you 227 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: know what. He's really good at fundraising. Robert E. Lee 228 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: was just exceptionally valided at shaking the apples out of trees, 229 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: and curiously enough, northern trees as well. He would get 230 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: northerners to give lots of money. George Peabody from Massachusetts, 231 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: Cyrus McCormick from Chicago, lawyers from New York City. He 232 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: gets them to send money to Washington College. And I 233 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: think it's in those last five years as president of 234 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: Washington College he finally gets the stars lined up. He 235 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: finally gets the independency one. He gets the security he wants. 236 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: He gets the action that he can impose on the students. 237 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: He says to incoming students when they meet with him 238 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: as the president, he says, we have no rules here. 239 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: The only expectation is that you will behave yourself as 240 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 1: a gentleman. Now people read that and I think, oh, 241 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: isn't that so generous of Robert E. Lee. Isn't that 242 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: so open minded? No rule book or anything. No, it's not. 243 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: What it means is Robert E Lee himself is the judge, jury, 244 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 1: and executioner of what the definition of a gentleman is, 245 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: and as Robert E Lee, who will exercise the decisions. 246 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: So he got perfectionism there as well, if I remember correctly. 247 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: He actually has a pretty good career in the army. 248 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: Yes he does. He's commissioned into the engineers. That's not 249 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: hugely a surprise. First, because he really did have a 250 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 1: talent for mathematics. That was shown early on when he 251 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: was a boy in school and Alexandria, Virginia, he went 252 00:15:54,600 --> 00:16:00,040 Speaker 1: to Benjamin Halliwell's school, and Halliwell afterwards remembered that he 253 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: could send Lee to the board and Lee would do 254 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: these perfect diagrams, he'd do these perfect equations. I don't 255 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: know if you'd quite want to typify him as a 256 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: math nerd. We don't really have enough observation and data 257 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: to say that, but he certainly had talent with math. 258 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: So he goes to West Point, first because it's free 259 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: and what's left of his family doesn't really have any money, 260 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: but secondly because it is the engineering school in the 261 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: United States. There is no other engineering school in the 262 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: United States at that time, so if you want an 263 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: engineering education, you go to West Point. And this surprise 264 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: is that many people did go to West Point, got 265 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: the engineering education, served in the army for six months, resigned, 266 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: and went into private practice, and were wildly successful. The 267 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: backbone of the civil engineering profession in America before the 268 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: Civil War was graduates of West Point. So that's a 269 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: natural decision for Lee to go to West Point. He 270 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 1: graduates second in his class, he's just inches behind and 271 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: the fellow who finishes first, and he's commissioned into the 272 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,919 Speaker 1: engineers and he spends thirty years on a variety of 273 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:13,400 Speaker 1: very difficult engineering projects. Technically speaking, these are coastal engineering problems, 274 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 1: which civil engineers will tell you are some of the 275 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: most difficult and intractable and abstract kinds of projects. And 276 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: he does coastal engineering projects at what is now Fort Pulaski, 277 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: at Fortress Monroe in Virginia. In Saint Louis, he rebuilds 278 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: the Saint Louis Waterfront. He's building Fort Carroll in Baltimore Harbor. 279 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,360 Speaker 1: He's the staff engineer for Fort Hamilton at the Narrows 280 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: guarding the approaches to New York City, and then of 281 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: course superintendent at West Point, which is still in the 282 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 1: eighteen fifties, and engineering school. So he has what you 283 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 1: could call a successful career as an engineer. He makes 284 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: a mark as an engineer. Yet the thing that people 285 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: notice about him in his military career actually isn't his 286 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: engineering projects. It's the one incident where he actually is 287 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: involved in a war, and that is the Mexican War. 288 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 1: When the Mexican War broke out, he was very eager 289 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 1: to get into action because action equal promotion, and promotion 290 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: in the old Army and especially the Corps of Engineers 291 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: was glacial so he looks upon the Mexican War as 292 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 1: an opportunity which he's afraid is going to pass him by. Nope, 293 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: he does get orders though. The orders bring him to Texas. 294 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: He goes into Mexico with John Woolf's expedition and then 295 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: he gets forwarded to Winfield Scott to serve with Scott 296 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: in this dramatic campaign that Scott launches, landing at Vera 297 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: Cruz on the coast of Mexico. It's a joint services operation. 298 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: It's actually the first example of a joint services operation 299 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 1: in American military history, and Scott makes it work. They land, 300 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: they capture Vera Cruz, and then they start on this 301 00:18:55,720 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: trek inland to capture Mexico City. Scott tags Lee to 302 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: work with him as an engineer on his staff, and 303 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 1: very quickly Scott, who had a very sharp eye from talent, Scott, 304 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: realizes that Lee has got a lot more going for 305 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,479 Speaker 1: him than most of the others, and he begins to 306 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,440 Speaker 1: use Lee over and over again, not just for engineering projects. 307 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: He begins to use him primarily for reconnaissance. Lee becomes 308 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: the eyes of Scott's army, and over and over again 309 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 1: all the way up to the conquest of Mexico City itself. 310 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: Robert E. Lee is acting as an extension of Windfield Scott, 311 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: so much so that years later Scott would tell Reberty 312 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: Johnson that most of the credit that he earned for 313 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: the Mexico City campaign really rested with Robert E. Lee. 314 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: And he made a comment to some officers later that 315 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: if he lay on his deathbed and the President of 316 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,880 Speaker 1: the United States wanted the name of someone who would 317 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 1: succeed to his command as General in chief, Scott would say, 318 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: any hesitation, let it be Robert E. Lee. So he 319 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: did carve out quite a reputation in the Mexican War. 320 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 1: The problem was when that war was over, it was over, 321 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 1: and back he went to engineering projects, and that was 322 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: when life got very slow for him. Again, do we 323 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 1: have any indication of how well he did in Texas 324 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: with the cavalry, Well, it's hard to measure because there 325 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:47,360 Speaker 1: was not a whole lot in the way of demand 326 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: on him in Texas. He goes to Texas as lieutenant 327 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: colonel of the second Cavalry. It's one of two new 328 00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 1: cavalry regiments that Congress authorizes in the eighteen fifties. Because 329 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: as a result of the Mexican War, we acquired this 330 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 1: huge stretch of territory in the southwest that was called 331 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:12,360 Speaker 1: the Mexican Session with a Sea. The Mexicans were seeding 332 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 1: it to us as part of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. 333 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,919 Speaker 1: And policing that required much more than just the usual 334 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: application of infantry or even artillery. You were trying to 335 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 1: take account of Comanche of Apache at least half a 336 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: dozen other tribes that were very mobile across that landscape 337 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: and very reluctant to be controlled. So Lee is really 338 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: entering into an entirely an entirely new environment. So he 339 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 1: takes this second in command position of the second Cavalry, 340 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: which is stationed in Texas, and the second Cavalry is 341 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,120 Speaker 1: going to get spread out company by company from one 342 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 1: post here, one post there, all along a line of 343 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: posts that bordered what they call the staked planes in 344 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 1: western Texas. And the principal idea was keeping an eye 345 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: on and confronting the Comanche. His senior officer as colonel 346 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 1: of a second Cavalry, as Albert Sidney Johnston, whom people 347 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,400 Speaker 1: will meet again in the Civil War as a Confederate 348 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: general Johnston very quickly gets pulled off to become Department commander. 349 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: So for all practical purposes, Lee is in charge of 350 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 1: a second Cavalry. That means he's got to manage all 351 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 1: of these outbreaks of Comanche horse raids. He's got to 352 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 1: deal with disgruntled Mexicans along the Rio Grand border, some 353 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: of whom own property on both sides of the Rio 354 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,199 Speaker 1: Grand and who were not at all happy at the 355 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 1: way they were being treated by the United States government. 356 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: He has to administer the department. He's got to deal 357 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:52,400 Speaker 1: with the logistics of supplying these posts. Even on two 358 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 1: occasions he has to preside at the burial service of 359 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: children of non commissioned officers Second Cavalry. So it's not 360 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: what you would call an exciting assignment. And although he 361 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: spends a good deal of time in the saddle and 362 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 1: chases a number of Comanche bands around the countryside, he 363 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: never actually fires a shot at anger. In fact, one 364 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: of the curiosities with Robert E. Lee is Robert E. 365 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: Lee never actually leads troops in combat until the Harper's 366 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: Ferry incident in eighteen fifty nine, when he's called upon 367 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:33,640 Speaker 1: to suppress the insurrection of John Brown and his raiders 368 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: at the Harper's Ferry Arsenal. Before that, even in the 369 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 1: Mexican War, he was not in command of troops under fire. 370 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: And when he's with the second Cavalry in Texas, it's 371 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: more like mounted police duty than anything else. And even 372 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: then never actually gets into any kind of confrontation or 373 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 1: firefight with the tribes or especially with the Comanche. It's 374 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: not until eighteen fifty nine the actually has to take 375 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: charge of troops who are doing the work of soldiers 376 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,679 Speaker 1: under fire in combat. And of course, ideologically, as a 377 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:10,680 Speaker 1: Southerner being sent to arrest John browns a reasonable behavior. 378 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: This is the curious thing, nude. We think of Lee 379 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: as a Southerner. We think of Lee as a Virginia. 380 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: And when he finally comes to this great moment of 381 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: decision in eighteen sixty one, he'll frequently invoke the fact 382 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 1: that he's a Virginian. He can't raise his hand against Virginia, 383 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,440 Speaker 1: he can't drew his sword against Virginia, his native state, 384 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: really West Virginia his native state. Well, he was born 385 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 1: in Virginia. He was born on the northern neck of Virginia, 386 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 1: right on the Potomac at Stratford Hall, which, by the way, 387 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,120 Speaker 1: is a marvelous place to visit. You've got to drive 388 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 1: down from Washington to Fredericksburg and then hang a left. 389 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: But if you follow out along the northern Neck between 390 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: the Potomac and the Rappahannock to Stratford Hall, Stratford Hall 391 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: is just absolutely marvelous. It's wonderful place to visit. Lee 392 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: was born in Virginia, but the family moves very quickly 393 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: to Alexandria, and Alexandria at that point is part of 394 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 1: the District of Columbia, it's not part of Virginia. Alexandria 395 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: is not retroceded back to Virginia until the eighteen thirties, 396 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: and Robert Lee is long since left by that point. 397 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,920 Speaker 1: So he grows up as a citizen, so to speak, 398 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,640 Speaker 1: of the District of Columbia, and then he set off 399 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 1: to various places, to Georgia, to Saint Louis, to New York. 400 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 1: He actually spends more time consistently in New York at 401 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,880 Speaker 1: Fort Hamilton at West Point, actually spends more time consistently 402 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: there than in Virginia. So what kind of a Virginia 403 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:45,880 Speaker 1: is Roberty League exactly? That's an interesting question to explore 404 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: because he really spends his time in many, many other places, 405 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: including Zexas, talk about being at a far reach from Virginia. 406 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: So why do you think given that, and I think 407 00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: that in fact, Scott did offer him command of the 408 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 1: American Army if he would stay in the Union, why 409 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 1: do you think, given that he chose to go to Virginia. Well, 410 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: I think there are two reasons. One is that Virginia 411 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: symbolizes for him, not some romantic old dominion. It symbolizes 412 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:24,399 Speaker 1: for him the family connections that acted as the net 413 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,880 Speaker 1: that caught him and his mother and his siblings when 414 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: Lighthorse Harry abandoned them. Lee's mother was a carter That 415 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:39,199 Speaker 1: still means something in Virginia, and it was carter relations. 416 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:43,400 Speaker 1: It was Fitzhugh relatives who really kept the family afloat. 417 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 1: It's William Henry Fitzhugh who writes the recommendation letter for 418 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 1: Lee for West Point. It's those family connections. That's what 419 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: Virginia means for Robert E. Lee, and that's what he's 420 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 1: reluctant to raise his hand against. For him, it has 421 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,199 Speaker 1: a real personification in all of those people that he 422 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: had depended upon so much. The second thing is that 423 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:14,639 Speaker 1: when he resigns, it's not a straight forward event. He 424 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,440 Speaker 1: doesn't go into Winfield Scott, get the offer turned down 425 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: and say I'm going south to serve the Confederates Act. 426 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,479 Speaker 1: It's incremental. He goes into Scott. He tells Scott, I 427 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 1: can't accept this command. But the reasons he offers for 428 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: it are curious, because there are different accounts of the reasons, 429 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 1: and in one account there's a curious reference to well, 430 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 1: I can't accept this commission because that's going to jeopardize 431 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: my family's property. He had married into the Custuses, and 432 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: the Custus family owned Arlington. We think today of Arlington 433 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 1: is the National Cemetery, but Arlington in Lee's day, Arlington 434 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,360 Speaker 1: was this big Custus estate perched on a bluff overlooking 435 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 1: the Potomac, overlooking the national capital. When his father in 436 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 1: law died, George Washington Park Custas. This will give you 437 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 1: an idea of the reputation of the Lees. Old Custus 438 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: cuts Lee out of the will. Lee had married the 439 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: only surviving child of the Custus family, Mary Randolph Custas, 440 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,920 Speaker 1: but old Man Custus doesn't leave Arlington to Robert E. Lee. 441 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: He leaves it to Lee's oldest son, George Washington Custus Lee. 442 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,919 Speaker 1: He cuts Lee out of it. All that Lee and 443 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: his wife get is a life interest to live there. 444 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 1: That meant that any decision Lee made in reference to 445 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 1: Scott's offer was going to have an immediate impact on 446 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 1: his children's property and especially on Arlington. So what is 447 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: he thinking? He says to Scott, I can't put in 448 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: jeopardy the future of my children. Translated, what that means 449 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: is one of two things is going to happen. Virginia's 450 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: going to secede from the Union, and if I take 451 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: command of the Union armies, then Virginia is going to 452 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: seize Arlington. They're going to confiscate it. Of course they are, 453 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 1: because it's strategic. You could put a couple of batteries 454 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: of artillery up there and completely command the federal capital. 455 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: On the other hand, if I decline this command, I 456 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: could remain neutral, well or imani neutral might not work either, 457 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: because then it might get confiscated either by the Confederate 458 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: government or the federal government. But if I resign and 459 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 1: then heed these invitations that I get to go to Richmond. 460 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: Then there won't be a war, and I'll be able 461 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 1: to keep Arlington from my children. And even better, I'll 462 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 1: go to Richmond on I will serve as the broker 463 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: for a peace settlement. To us today, that sounds bizarre 464 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: because we think, all right, there's the firing on Fort Sumter, 465 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: there's a secession of Virginia, there's war. It's inevitable. Everybody 466 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: knew it was going to happen. No, everyone did not 467 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: know what was going to happen. In the middle of April, 468 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: everything was up in the air. And many people believe 469 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: that secession was a temporary moment, that you were going 470 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: to have the United States split into three or four 471 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: or five different confederacies. But after a while, everybody would 472 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: get back together in a national convention and there would 473 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: be a reconstruction of the Union. By the way, that's 474 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: when the term reconstruction first gets used. We're gonna have 475 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: a reconstruction of the Union. In eighteen sixty one, Robert E. Lee. 476 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: According to his cousin Cassius Francis Lee, who also lived 477 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 1: in Alexandria, the confidence was that Robert E. Lee would 478 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: go to Richmond and help broker a peace settlement that 479 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: would help reunite the country eventually, and that would make 480 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: Robert E. Lee an even greater figure in American history 481 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: than George Washington, because George Washington delivers us as an 482 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: independent nation, but Robert E. Lee could preserve us at 483 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: our moment of greatest crisis. And these are the terms 484 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: in which Lee is trying to come to this decision. 485 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: So he resigns his commission in the army. He goes 486 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 1: to Richmond. When he gets to Richmond late in April 487 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: of eighteen sixty one, he finds the horse has already 488 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: galloped out of the stable. Virginia has seceded. It's going 489 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 1: to join the Confederacy. But for a month thereafter, he's 490 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: constantly saying, well, the Virginia forces must not provoke anything. 491 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: Stonewall Jackson, all right, Stonewall Jackson, who isn't Stonewall yet. 492 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: Stonewall Jackson is at Harper's Ferry with units of the 493 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: Virginia militia. Jackson sees Harper's ferry is militarily untenable, so 494 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 1: he crosses the Potomac to Maryland Heights to occupy that. 495 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: Lee orders him back. Lee says, you mustn't do anything 496 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: to provoke a situation. And that's the line he takes 497 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 1: all the way through other Virginia units and other Virginia 498 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: installations along the northern rim of the border of Virginia 499 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: with Maryland. Don't do anything to provoke Why, because we're 500 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: going to get peace. Sell. Well, that doesn't happen, and 501 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 1: I think Robert E. Lee. By the time we get 502 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: to June of eighteen sixty one, Lee is already telling 503 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: his wife, maybe I'll just resign now, maybe I'll just 504 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: wash my hands of this whole business. But it doesn't 505 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: happen that way. The federal government seizes Arlington, the war 506 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: takes off, and Lee finds himself sucked further and further 507 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 1: into the vortex and emerges from the vortex of the 508 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: early part of the war as the person to whom 509 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: Jefferson Davis is going to turn to take command of 510 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: Confederate forces in Virginia in eighteen sixty two. It's incremental. 511 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 1: He does not set out as a partisan for the Confederacy. 512 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 1: If anything, all through the war he is the Confederacy's 513 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: principal critic. He's always telling people how incompetent the Confederate 514 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 1: Congress is how weak willed Confederate citizens are they all 515 00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: expect to win this war without having to pay a dime. 516 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 1: And worse, he's harassing Jefferson Davis by telling Davis, We're 517 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 1: going to have to emancipate the slaves, because unless we 518 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 1: emancipate the slaves, slavery is going to be the millstone 519 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 1: around the neck of the Confederacy. No foreign power is 520 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: going to want to come to our aid. Of course, 521 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 1: Davis is not listening until the very end of the war. 522 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: But this is the kind of thing that Lee is saying, 523 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 1: and that earns Lee a reputation, and early on before 524 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: he becomes the victorious Confederate general, there's a lot of 525 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 1: whispering behind Lee's back that Robert E. Lee is not 526 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 1: really one of us, his heart is really not in 527 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: the Confederate cause we really can't trust Robert E. Lee. 528 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: You find a wonderful description of this in Mary Chestnut's diary. 529 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: One of his earliest assignments once the war begins needs 530 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 1: to go into West Virginia. And if I remember click, 531 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: it's not a particularly glorious campaign. You couldn't have watched 532 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 1: Lee in West Virginia and imagine the Lee who would 533 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 1: emerge a few months later. No, no, you certainly could not. 534 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 1: There's a number of reasons for that. One that Lee 535 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: is sent into West Virginia by Jefferson Davis with no 536 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 1: explicit authority. He has no command status. He can't tell 537 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 1: people what to do and expect them to obey it. 538 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: And that's bad in Western Virginia because you have a 539 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 1: number of almost quasi independent operators like John Floyd and 540 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 1: Henry Wise. They've raised their own troops, they have their 541 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: own little rebel armies. And these characters are not talking 542 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 1: to each other. They hate each other, they're not cooperating 543 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 1: with each other. They probably dislike each other more than 544 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 1: they dislike the federal troops that are crossing the Ohio 545 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,799 Speaker 1: River into Western Virginia. So Lee has to try to 546 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:44,720 Speaker 1: yoke these very unequal courses to some kind of campaign wagon, 547 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 1: and he's not very successful because he hasn't got an 548 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: authority of them. He also has to deal with the 549 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: fact that Western Virginia is largely Unionist and sentiment. He 550 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,319 Speaker 1: can't go into Western Virginia and be hailed as the 551 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,959 Speaker 1: savior of a Confederate region because it's not Confederate region. 552 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 1: Slavery has only the most tenuous hold in the mountains 553 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 1: of Western Virginia. And Lee is constantly complaining about how 554 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: these Western Virginia civilians are always betraying the movements of 555 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 1: his troops to the Union forces. They are clearly pro 556 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,879 Speaker 1: Union there. So he's operating in a hostile environment and 557 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 1: he doesn't have much on the way of resources. The 558 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: weather is bad, the terrain is bad. You add that 559 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 1: all up, and it required more than Robert E. Lee 560 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,320 Speaker 1: at that moment had his fingertips to make something work. 561 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,840 Speaker 1: So his campaign in Western Virginia is really a flop. 562 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 1: And if we were to judge Robert E. Lee by 563 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 1: that standard, then he would probably go to the bottom 564 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:46,240 Speaker 1: of the ladder of all Confederate generals and we wouldn't 565 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:50,879 Speaker 1: be writing biographies about him. What happens when he goes 566 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: back to Richmond that rehabilitates him and leads Davis to 567 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 1: ignore his West Virginia experience. Davis had known Lee from 568 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 1: before the war. It's Davis who really engineers Lee's commissioners, 569 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 1: Lieutenant Colonel the Second Cavalry, Davis having been Secretary of 570 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 1: War while Lee was superintendent at West Point, Davis conceived 571 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 1: a pretty healthy respect for Lee, so he chooses to 572 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:21,320 Speaker 1: overlook the failure of the Western Virginia campaign. He sends 573 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,359 Speaker 1: Lee to South Carolina to take charge of the defenses there. 574 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,319 Speaker 1: It's a pretty vacuous job, and it's not until the 575 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 1: spring of eighteen sixty two when the Confederacy first begins 576 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:37,720 Speaker 1: to realize that it's losing ground. Ulysses Grant has taken 577 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 1: Fort Donaldson and Fort Henry and cracked open the shield 578 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:46,439 Speaker 1: of the Western Confederacy. George McClellan has begun his big 579 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,920 Speaker 1: movement toward Richmond, and so Davis brings Lee back as 580 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 1: an advisor. At the end of May eighteen sixty two, 581 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:58,400 Speaker 1: the field commander of the Army of Northern Virginia, Joe Johnston, 582 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 1: who's been a classmate of Lee's Point, is seriously wounded 583 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:07,240 Speaker 1: at the Battle of Seven Pines, and turning around, Davis 584 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,440 Speaker 1: chooses Lead to take his place. At first, people said, 585 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:13,799 Speaker 1: oh no, no, this is a terrible mistake. Lee did 586 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 1: poorly in Western Virginia. Leaves an engineer. All he can 587 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 1: do is think about digging fortifications. Oh did they underestimate 588 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 1: Robert E. Lee Lee takes charge of the Army of 589 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: Northern Virginia, and after a month of sizing up the situation, 590 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:33,280 Speaker 1: he goes on the offensive against McClellan, takes McClellan completely 591 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 1: by surprise, forces McClellan to withdraw from Richmond, pins McClellan 592 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 1: into an encampment at Harrison's Landing on the James River, 593 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 1: and then turns and bounds northward to Northern Virginia, where 594 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 1: he defeats another Federal army at the Second Battle of 595 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 1: bull Run crosses the Potomac. He's headed for Pennsylvania. Because 596 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 1: if there's one thing that Robert E. Lee was head 597 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:02,839 Speaker 1: and shoulders over every other Confederate commander in doing it 598 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:08,279 Speaker 1: was his strategic grasp. If we evaluate great commanders by 599 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:14,439 Speaker 1: these three standards, their strategic grasp, their tactical grasp, their 600 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 1: operational and logistical grasp. Lee certainly excelled as the strategic 601 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:24,279 Speaker 1: grasp because Lee understood, as few other Confederates did, that 602 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:28,800 Speaker 1: the Confederacy could not go a long, heavyweight fifteen round about. 603 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,759 Speaker 1: It simply didn't have the wherewithal the North would outlasted. 604 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,759 Speaker 1: Lee understood that the Confederacy was to succeed it had 605 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 1: to strike a knockout in the first round or two 606 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,840 Speaker 1: a surprise knockout, and the way to do that is 607 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 1: cross the Potomac into Pennsylvania. And they're reek as much 608 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:51,360 Speaker 1: havoc as possible, so much so that the political fallout 609 00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:55,240 Speaker 1: will force the Lincoln administration to come to the negotiating table. 610 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,839 Speaker 1: And when that happens, Confederate independence is almost guaranteed. He's 611 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: that in eighteen sixty two. That's what governs his great 612 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 1: campaign into Maryland, and it's what governs the campaign that 613 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 1: takes him into Pennsylvania in eighteen sixty three and culminates 614 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 1: at the Battle of Gettysburg. He had the strategic vision, 615 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:18,960 Speaker 1: a strategic vision that other Confederate officers and leaders did 616 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 1: not often manifest. One of the things that really impressed me, 617 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:31,400 Speaker 1: I've always been fascinated by Antietam because Lee seems to 618 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 1: be so much in command of himself and so willing 619 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,759 Speaker 1: to run risks that are a function of his understanding 620 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 1: of McClellan and the idea that McClellan has the slows 621 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 1: and therefore he actually has the time to pull together's army. 622 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 1: But several times I've gone to Antietam, and just tried 623 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:56,880 Speaker 1: to imagine Lee riding back and forth up on that ridgeline, 624 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:01,600 Speaker 1: able to see most of the battlefield, calmly moving small 625 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:05,719 Speaker 1: pockets of troops to stop the Union, again and again 626 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,399 Speaker 1: and again all day long. When I think, in some 627 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:12,400 Speaker 1: ways it's one of his most extraordinary victories, it's almost 628 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,359 Speaker 1: like he in a real crisis. He gets ice water 629 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,239 Speaker 1: in his veins, and he gets calmer rather than more emotional. 630 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:20,840 Speaker 1: I don't know, as you looked at it, how you 631 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,400 Speaker 1: saw him. Lee was one of those people who operated 632 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:29,799 Speaker 1: clearly and unambiguously under pressure. I mean, for most of us, 633 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:33,239 Speaker 1: when the pressure is on, we go to pieces we 634 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 1: can't handle it. Lee is one of those rare people 635 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:41,520 Speaker 1: for whom pressure that way, if anything concentrated his mind. 636 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:46,480 Speaker 1: He operated very well under pressure, very well under adverse circumstances, 637 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:51,320 Speaker 1: and Antietam certainly presented adverse circumstances. I mean, for one thing, physically, 638 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 1: he was having difficulty. Two weeks before his famous war 639 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,880 Speaker 1: horse Traveler had bolted while he was sitting on the 640 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 1: ground holding the rain and dragged him. He sprained both wrists, 641 00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:08,000 Speaker 1: broke some bones in his wrists, and at Antietam. His 642 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,600 Speaker 1: hands are still bandaged. He can mount Traveler, but he's 643 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,480 Speaker 1: got to get assistance to do it. So he's got 644 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,560 Speaker 1: physical difficulties that he's dealing with at the same time 645 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:21,359 Speaker 1: as he's dealing with the Union Army. But he had 646 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 1: called McClellan's bluff. I mean, in a sense, the Battle 647 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:28,319 Speaker 1: of Antietam shouldn't have taken place on September seventeenth. That 648 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:34,120 Speaker 1: should have taken place on September sixteenth. Because when McClellan 649 00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 1: receives these lost orders, special orders number one ninety one 650 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:42,480 Speaker 1: that were found by Union soldiers in a field near Frederick, Maryland, 651 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:47,640 Speaker 1: that itemize the location of Lee's troops, McClellan has that, 652 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,759 Speaker 1: and he suddenly realizes he's got the mind of Robert E. 653 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,520 Speaker 1: Lee right in front of him for this campaign. Suddenly McClellan, 654 00:41:54,640 --> 00:42:00,080 Speaker 1: the stationary engine moves in at high speed rushes of 655 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:04,480 Speaker 1: the Catoctins, storms through South Mountain, and at that point 656 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:08,440 Speaker 1: Lee backs off against the Potomac River at the Antietam Creek. 657 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,640 Speaker 1: And if McClellan had really had a little bit of 658 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:18,560 Speaker 1: Lee's audacity, McClellan would have moved right away on the sixteenth, 659 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:20,760 Speaker 1: and if he had, the result would have been dramatically 660 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:24,480 Speaker 1: different from what it was. But mclellens McClellan suddenly moves 661 00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:29,160 Speaker 1: into low gear. It's mister caution again, and Lee's bluffing. 662 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:35,759 Speaker 1: Lee's bluffing, hoping that he can stall McClellan, reunite his army, 663 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:41,479 Speaker 1: and perhaps resume that movement up through Hagerstown into Pennsylvania. 664 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,760 Speaker 1: Now that doesn't exactly happen, but Lee hoped it would. 665 00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,720 Speaker 1: Why does McClellan stop. Well, partly because he was George McClellan, 666 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,480 Speaker 1: but also because you know what, McClellan's idea of a 667 00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 1: successful conclusion of that campaign was not a battle. McClellan's 668 00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,520 Speaker 1: idea of a successful conclusion of the campaign was Lee 669 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:04,240 Speaker 1: withdraws across the Potomac back into Virginia. That's what McClellan 670 00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:08,160 Speaker 1: thinks is the moment when he can declare victory. And McClellan, 671 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:11,440 Speaker 1: in a way doesn't tipically want to crush the South. No, 672 00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:16,719 Speaker 1: and there really always hangs in the air after Antietam, 673 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:21,880 Speaker 1: this sense that McClellan was pulling punches. There were rumors 674 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,719 Speaker 1: all through McClellan's staff that first of all, McClellan had 675 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:30,239 Speaker 1: communications with Lee the day after the battle, suggesting that 676 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,839 Speaker 1: the armies had now fought each other to a standstill, 677 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,080 Speaker 1: and since it was a standstill, what they really needed 678 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,799 Speaker 1: to do was to turn around jointly and march on 679 00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:44,360 Speaker 1: Washington because the real problem causing this war was Abraham Lincoln, 680 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:49,799 Speaker 1: and that McClellan and Lee were together confront Lincoln and 681 00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,880 Speaker 1: force a peace settlement. There were rumors like that, Do 682 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,920 Speaker 1: we have any paperwork proof, No, but we do know 683 00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:01,240 Speaker 1: communications were going back and forth. We also know because 684 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:07,960 Speaker 1: Lincoln himself personally calls in one of McClellan staffers, Major 685 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,680 Speaker 1: John Key, sits Key down and says, I've heard rumors 686 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:17,839 Speaker 1: that at Antietam, McClellan's purpose was to fight to a standstill, 687 00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 1: not to achieve a victory or a resolution. Is this true? 688 00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:25,960 Speaker 1: And Key gives this fumbling answer like, well, yeah, the 689 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,839 Speaker 1: idea was we really weren't going to try to annihilate them, 690 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,160 Speaker 1: and we were going to just let everything go as 691 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,799 Speaker 1: it was, and that eventually people would get tired and 692 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:38,080 Speaker 1: there'd be a peace settlement with Confederate independence. Lincoln fires 693 00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,719 Speaker 1: the guy on the spot, This is Lincoln conducting basically 694 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:47,240 Speaker 1: an intelligence interrogation. That's how seriously Lincoln took this. So 695 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:49,520 Speaker 1: there is a part of this in which George McClellan 696 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:54,719 Speaker 1: bears more than a little responsibility for falling short of 697 00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:58,879 Speaker 1: his goals and his responsibilities as a Union soldier and 698 00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:02,200 Speaker 1: as a general. You know, because even on the seventeenth 699 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,920 Speaker 1: that he launched a general offensive of all of his 700 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,960 Speaker 1: troops simultaneously, he probably would have broken Lee's army. Yeah, 701 00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,719 Speaker 1: Lee did not have enough people to hold all that terrain. Right. 702 00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:38,200 Speaker 1: The other great battle, which I think is equally astonishing psychologically, 703 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,799 Speaker 1: his chances will. I mean, you have Lee totally out 704 00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:44,200 Speaker 1: of position, with a third of his army still in 705 00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:48,160 Speaker 1: southern Virginia, and he cally goes an offense. I mean, 706 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:52,800 Speaker 1: it's one of the most amazing tactical battles I've ever studied. 707 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,160 Speaker 1: Oh it is. It became, in fact a model for 708 00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:01,760 Speaker 1: Norman Schwartzkoff's attack in the Gulf War, that sloping flank 709 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:07,360 Speaker 1: attack that completely undid Saddam Hussein's Republican Guard, this fabled 710 00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,440 Speaker 1: Republican Guard that was supposed to be so dangerous. Schwartzkoff 711 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,520 Speaker 1: literally said afterwards he was modeling himself on Lee at Chancellorsville. 712 00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:17,840 Speaker 1: And what Lee does. First of all, he's got Stonewall Jackson, 713 00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:22,359 Speaker 1: whom he trusts implicitly, two more unlike soldiers you could 714 00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,960 Speaker 1: not imagine. I mean, here's Lee from gentlemen Lee Virginia 715 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:31,040 Speaker 1: and Stonewall Jackson from the Presbyterian Shenandoah. They would never 716 00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:34,680 Speaker 1: have crossed paths and normal society, but the war throws 717 00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:40,040 Speaker 1: them together. Jackson almost intuits Lee's own thinking, and they 718 00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,120 Speaker 1: sit down the evening before Jackson's great attack. They talk 719 00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:45,960 Speaker 1: about the possibilities. Finally, Lee says, all right, what do 720 00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:48,839 Speaker 1: you want to do? Jackson says, I want to move 721 00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:52,759 Speaker 1: around their flank? What do you want to use my 722 00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:57,560 Speaker 1: entire core? And Lee pauses for moments, is all right? 723 00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:01,880 Speaker 1: Go ahead with those very simple words. Jackson launches on 724 00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:06,799 Speaker 1: this great attack that just crushes Hooker's army like an 725 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,680 Speaker 1: egg show. But it requires Lee to hold Hooker's army 726 00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:13,640 Speaker 1: for about half a day with only one third of 727 00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,000 Speaker 1: his army because the other third of courses with Long 728 00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:20,759 Speaker 1: Street in southern Virginia. Someone once said about Lee. This 729 00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:24,160 Speaker 1: was Joseph Ives, who was on the staff of Jefferson 730 00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:28,480 Speaker 1: Davis said to Edward Porter Alexander, an artilleryman in the 731 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:32,640 Speaker 1: Army of Northern Virginia later rises to become Chief of Artillery. 732 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:38,040 Speaker 1: Porter Alexander was talking to Joseph Ives about Lee and 733 00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:40,480 Speaker 1: he was expressing some doubts. This is very early on, 734 00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:44,240 Speaker 1: and I've says no, no, no, you're wrong, You're wrong. 735 00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:52,520 Speaker 1: Lee is the very personification of audacity. And people have 736 00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:55,319 Speaker 1: read that audacity and they've sometimes said, well, that meant 737 00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,120 Speaker 1: he was reckless. No, he wasn't. He was audacious, but 738 00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:02,839 Speaker 1: it was always a very loud Jack Coole audacity. Lee 739 00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:08,080 Speaker 1: was always calculating the balance of forces. Now he didn't 740 00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:11,320 Speaker 1: make numbers everything. He was always willing to accept a 741 00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:15,360 Speaker 1: numerical inferiority, but even the numerical inferiority was part of 742 00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:19,719 Speaker 1: his calculations. So yet, not recklessness, but yes, audacity. And 743 00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:22,520 Speaker 1: he's willing to do things because he knows that he 744 00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:27,480 Speaker 1: can take a larger enemy by surprise, catch that enemy 745 00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:30,319 Speaker 1: like some muscle bound giant, and defeat them. And he 746 00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:32,440 Speaker 1: does that over and over again. I don't know that 747 00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,040 Speaker 1: this is apocryphal real, but I think there's a point 748 00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,480 Speaker 1: where Lee finally says, sooner or later they'll find a general. 749 00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:42,719 Speaker 1: I don't understand. That's what he said about McClellan. They 750 00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:44,719 Speaker 1: were not sure who was going to replace McClellan, and 751 00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,160 Speaker 1: he said, yeah, mclellen and I we just understood each other. 752 00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:49,160 Speaker 1: So well, one of these days they'll put up a general. 753 00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:53,120 Speaker 1: I don't understand. Although then crushes Hooker. Oh yes, not 754 00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:56,840 Speaker 1: only that, but he had crushes Burnside before Hooker. Deals 755 00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:01,160 Speaker 1: with Burnside, deals with Hooker comes really new. Within an 756 00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:05,719 Speaker 1: ace of defeating Mead at Gettysburg. People don't realize what 757 00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:09,799 Speaker 1: a close run thing Gettysburg was. But over and over 758 00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:15,480 Speaker 1: again he does that. He even stymies Ulysses Grant. Ulysses 759 00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:19,120 Speaker 1: Grant's overland campaign is a victorious campaign for Grant. It's 760 00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:23,360 Speaker 1: a great example of campaigning. But Lee was not the 761 00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:27,839 Speaker 1: pushover that the Western Confederate Armies had been, and Lee 762 00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:32,399 Speaker 1: drags that campaign out for months and months, and then 763 00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,440 Speaker 1: of course into the great Siege of Richmond. I've always 764 00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:38,920 Speaker 1: thought that one of Grant's great problems was he couldn't 765 00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:43,960 Speaker 1: get McClellan's Army of the Potomac to move at the 766 00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:47,000 Speaker 1: speed of the Western Army. That he and Sherman had 767 00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,920 Speaker 1: created an army that was probably at least as fast 768 00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:53,000 Speaker 1: as Jackson, and so Grant had this idea of how 769 00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:56,719 Speaker 1: he would fight, but they couldn't close because the Army 770 00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,560 Speaker 1: of Northern Virginia had learned not to close. And does 771 00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:01,720 Speaker 1: that make sense to you as somebody who's really studied 772 00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:04,200 Speaker 1: this well? I think so. I think the Army of 773 00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:08,680 Speaker 1: the Potomac looked upon Grant with a certain skepticism. When 774 00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:12,279 Speaker 1: Grant comes east to take charge of things. Soldiers in 775 00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,680 Speaker 1: the Army of the Potomac were used to generals being 776 00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:20,120 Speaker 1: put up and then falling down, and that included generals 777 00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:22,680 Speaker 1: from the West, John Pope being an example, a second 778 00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:24,759 Speaker 1: bull Run. If anything, they were more skeptical of people 779 00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:28,360 Speaker 1: from the West because always the reasoning ran, well, they 780 00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:30,080 Speaker 1: might have done real well in the West, but that's 781 00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,399 Speaker 1: kind of the minor leagues. Here in the East, it's 782 00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:34,600 Speaker 1: the major leagues, and you've got to play against Robert E. 783 00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:37,239 Speaker 1: Lee and that's really going to be more of a 784 00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:40,280 Speaker 1: problem than people are anticipating. So there was this moment 785 00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:42,880 Speaker 1: when the Army of the Potomac was skeptical of him. Also, 786 00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:45,600 Speaker 1: the commanding officers in the Army of the Potomac are 787 00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,320 Speaker 1: a very different breed than the ones in the West. 788 00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:51,200 Speaker 1: In the West, you would most often find the people 789 00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:54,280 Speaker 1: who were most dedicated to winning the war and politically speaking, 790 00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:57,120 Speaker 1: the ones who were most supportive of the Lincoln administration, 791 00:50:57,560 --> 00:50:59,960 Speaker 1: even people who Grant didn't get along with in the way, 792 00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:04,120 Speaker 1: like John McClernand. We're clearly and unambiguously in support of 793 00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:07,279 Speaker 1: the war and in support of the Lincoln administration. You 794 00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:09,480 Speaker 1: come to the Army of the Potomac and it's a 795 00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:13,760 Speaker 1: very different story. You can separate out the different infantry corps, 796 00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:16,840 Speaker 1: and especially in Gettysburg, you can separate out the seven 797 00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:19,200 Speaker 1: infantry Corps of the Army of the Potomac on a 798 00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:23,760 Speaker 1: spectrum of politics. And there are some of those units 799 00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:26,000 Speaker 1: like the Second Corps and the Fifth Corps. These are 800 00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:29,759 Speaker 1: basically democratic units which are not in sympathy with the 801 00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:33,520 Speaker 1: Lincoln administration, and they really don't make any bones about it. 802 00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:39,520 Speaker 1: They provide a real source of inertia that Grant has 803 00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:42,279 Speaker 1: to cope with, and Grant one by one has to 804 00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:47,560 Speaker 1: weed them out and refashion the army. And I think 805 00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:50,080 Speaker 1: there's really something could be said for the fact that 806 00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:54,200 Speaker 1: the army that Grant rebuilds during the Siege of Richmond. 807 00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:56,000 Speaker 1: I mean, people don't think of the besiege as a 808 00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:59,280 Speaker 1: moment for rebuilding an army, And I think the siege 809 00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:01,759 Speaker 1: has distracted did attention from the fact that that is 810 00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:05,960 Speaker 1: what Grant was really doing. The army that he rebuilds 811 00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:08,880 Speaker 1: during the siege, and which then takes off in pursuit 812 00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:11,800 Speaker 1: after Lee and runs him to ground at Appomatics Courthouse. 813 00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,680 Speaker 1: That army in the Potomac is a very different army 814 00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:18,000 Speaker 1: than the one he set out from in May of 815 00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:21,720 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty four from the Rapidan with That's the army 816 00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:24,880 Speaker 1: which is beginning to move like the army of the West. 817 00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:28,839 Speaker 1: And had he had that army going into the wilderness, 818 00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:32,040 Speaker 1: Lee would have suddenly had a whole different set of problems. 819 00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:35,120 Speaker 1: And I think, isn't it Sheridan who's the only person 820 00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:40,120 Speaker 1: to strip a Corps commander in the field during a battle? Yes, 821 00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:44,400 Speaker 1: this was at five Forks. Sheridan was so unhappy with 822 00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:48,120 Speaker 1: Governor Warren's performance as commander of the Fifth Corps that 823 00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:51,799 Speaker 1: he sacks Warren right on the spot. Warren spends the 824 00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:53,759 Speaker 1: rest of his life trying to get some kind of 825 00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:56,160 Speaker 1: restitution for what was done to him. And in truth, 826 00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:59,719 Speaker 1: Sheridan probably was out of line doing what he did, 827 00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:04,640 Speaker 1: but that was Phil Sheridan, and Grant backed Phil Sheridan 828 00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:08,919 Speaker 1: to the hilt. Hey he had been backing Sheridan since 829 00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:11,680 Speaker 1: the beginning of the campaign back in eighteen sixty four. 830 00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:15,640 Speaker 1: And it's Sheridan who gets ahead of Lee's army, heads 831 00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:19,279 Speaker 1: them off at Appomatics Courthouse, provides the roadblock that is 832 00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:22,560 Speaker 1: going to force Lee to come to a halt. And 833 00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:25,440 Speaker 1: listen to what Grant has to say about surrender terms. 834 00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:28,880 Speaker 1: I once, many years ago, borrowed from the Army World 835 00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:33,200 Speaker 1: College Sherman's field orders when he took over the Army 836 00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,560 Speaker 1: to the West, because I wanted to get a feel 837 00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:39,439 Speaker 1: for why they were so fast. And the orders begin 838 00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:45,840 Speaker 1: the commanding General will not be taking a tent into 839 00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:51,080 Speaker 1: the field, and every unit will have one wagon for 840 00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:57,200 Speaker 1: ammunition and one wagon four medical supplies. And the commanding 841 00:53:57,239 --> 00:54:01,680 Speaker 1: General intends that this army will not be encumbered. Now 842 00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:05,120 Speaker 1: you take that, and then you look at Mead's inability 843 00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:08,440 Speaker 1: to leave the siege guns behind, and you get some 844 00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:11,200 Speaker 1: sense of the difference in the two stuffs. I have 845 00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:14,200 Speaker 1: to ask you one last question that is just fun. 846 00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:20,920 Speaker 1: Test your Yankee biases here. Had Lee accepted Scott's offer, 847 00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:23,400 Speaker 1: do you think it would have led to a radically 848 00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:28,200 Speaker 1: different Civil War? That is extremely difficult to say. And 849 00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:32,880 Speaker 1: the reason that I'm dodging that a bit is because 850 00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:37,319 Speaker 1: Lee's first assignment for the Confederacy was the one in 851 00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:41,200 Speaker 1: western Virginia, and in truth, he doesn't really shine all 852 00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:46,520 Speaker 1: that well. And I've often wondered if Lee had taken 853 00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:50,040 Speaker 1: command of the Federal forces in the field, the federal 854 00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:52,359 Speaker 1: forces in eighteen sixty one that were instead commanded by 855 00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:55,680 Speaker 1: Irvin McDowell and went to this embarrassing defeat at first 856 00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:58,839 Speaker 1: bull Run, I wonder if Lee would have done better, 857 00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:03,520 Speaker 1: because you could scarcely call these things armies. We're not 858 00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:07,040 Speaker 1: paying ourselves a national compliment, I know. But the terrible 859 00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:11,239 Speaker 1: truth is that these Civil War armies start out as 860 00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:16,600 Speaker 1: little more than collections of boy scouts and firemen. And 861 00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:21,680 Speaker 1: could Lee have imposed some kind of system and order 862 00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:23,360 Speaker 1: on them and taken them down to bull Run and 863 00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:26,239 Speaker 1: achieved a victory there, a victory that would have collapsed 864 00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:31,960 Speaker 1: the Confederacy right at the beginning. Maybe maybe not. Maybe 865 00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:34,440 Speaker 1: Robert E. Lee might not have been able to do 866 00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:37,799 Speaker 1: better than Irwin McDowell did. And as I said, I'm 867 00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:41,719 Speaker 1: thinking that way because I see what happened in western Virginia. 868 00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:44,959 Speaker 1: So for that reason, it's extremely difficult to speculate. If 869 00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:47,120 Speaker 1: Lee had had the chance to impose the kind of 870 00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:51,880 Speaker 1: order on the federal army that George McClellan had, then 871 00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:54,880 Speaker 1: perhaps it would have been very different. Because Lee was 872 00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:58,960 Speaker 1: a firm believer. He had learned the lesson taught by 873 00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:03,239 Speaker 1: Winfield Scott in Mexico of continuous offensive, that when you 874 00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:05,640 Speaker 1: start an offensive, you keep at it, you keep on going. 875 00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:08,319 Speaker 1: That's what you see when Lee takes charge on the 876 00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:12,640 Speaker 1: Peninsula against McClellan. If Lee had taken charge that way 877 00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:15,120 Speaker 1: of an army that had really been whipped and organized 878 00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:18,879 Speaker 1: into shape, the way McClellan whipped and organized the Army 879 00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:21,799 Speaker 1: of the Potomac into shape by eighteen sixty two, if 880 00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:23,600 Speaker 1: Lee had been able to take charge of that kind 881 00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:26,160 Speaker 1: of army and move into Virginia, then there would have 882 00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:28,439 Speaker 1: been something that would have looked, I think a lot 883 00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:32,040 Speaker 1: like grants eighteen sixty four overland campaign, and would have 884 00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:35,600 Speaker 1: been successful and would have captured Richmond. Possibly, but I 885 00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:40,120 Speaker 1: have to underscore possibly this is raw speculation on my 886 00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:44,879 Speaker 1: You mentioned twice the Peninsula campaign, and I've always been 887 00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:48,200 Speaker 1: curious why, given what happened, I think at Malvern Hill, 888 00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:52,080 Speaker 1: where Union artillery finally just stops the Confederate army and 889 00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:56,200 Speaker 1: its tracks and causes substantial casualties, I've always wondered why 890 00:56:57,000 --> 00:57:01,520 Speaker 1: Lee orders the suicidal frontal assault on the third day 891 00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:04,560 Speaker 1: at gettis bergwin Long's she to say into him, you know, 892 00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:08,120 Speaker 1: you don't have enough men. That sized unit can't possibly 893 00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:13,520 Speaker 1: go up that hill, and it's kind of like almost desperation. Well, 894 00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:16,439 Speaker 1: bear in mind that Malverne Hills a different story than 895 00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:20,640 Speaker 1: the third day at Gettysburg. Malvern Hill was a mistake. 896 00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:26,000 Speaker 1: Lee misread the situation, and that happens sometimes even to 897 00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:30,440 Speaker 1: the greatest of commanders. The third day at Gettysburg was different. 898 00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:34,440 Speaker 1: For two days prior to pick its great charge on 899 00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:38,760 Speaker 1: July third, Lee's army had mauled the Army of the Potomac. 900 00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:42,080 Speaker 1: Of the seven infantry corps and the Army of the Potomac, 901 00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:44,800 Speaker 1: five of them were for all practical purposes out of action, 902 00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:49,760 Speaker 1: and the one that was holding the ground behind Cemetery Hill. 903 00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:52,880 Speaker 1: The Second Corps had already lost one of its divisions. 904 00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:57,560 Speaker 1: Each of the remaining two divisions had lost one brigade. Effectively, 905 00:57:57,560 --> 00:58:00,959 Speaker 1: there were really only about thirty five hundred Federal troops 906 00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:05,440 Speaker 1: able to defend Cemetery Hill. So what Lead was launching 907 00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:11,280 Speaker 1: was not an irrational, foolish assault. He had plenty of 908 00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:14,280 Speaker 1: precedent for it. You fetch back a few years to 909 00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:18,120 Speaker 1: the Crimean War and Lord Ragland's assault at the Alma 910 00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:20,960 Speaker 1: against far greater odds and a far more deeply entrenched 911 00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:25,200 Speaker 1: Russian position, and that head on attack is a spectacular success. 912 00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:28,840 Speaker 1: You look in eighteen fifty nine to Napoleon the Third 913 00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:32,520 Speaker 1: at Saalfarino in the North Italian War. Exactly the same 914 00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:35,680 Speaker 1: kind of attack gets launched against the Austrian forces against 915 00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:41,520 Speaker 1: spectacularly successful. Lee had every reason to believe that the 916 00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:44,680 Speaker 1: attack on July third would succeed. He had the numbers, 917 00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:47,600 Speaker 1: he had the advantage, The Union army was on the ropes, 918 00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:52,520 Speaker 1: and much of the story about Long Street, I am convinced, 919 00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:56,240 Speaker 1: tends to be a post battle and post war confection, 920 00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:59,480 Speaker 1: most of it by long Street himself. I don't think 921 00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:03,360 Speaker 1: Long Street subjections at that moment probably looked anything like 922 00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:05,600 Speaker 1: what he made them look like later. I think in 923 00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:08,520 Speaker 1: later years he really wanted to distance himself and show 924 00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:12,360 Speaker 1: that he had been smarter than Robert E. Lee. That's 925 00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:16,520 Speaker 1: a temptation that post war memoirs often have. I don't 926 00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:19,000 Speaker 1: think that really manifested itself, at least not on the 927 00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:22,840 Speaker 1: terms Long Street later described it. You did still have 928 00:59:23,560 --> 00:59:27,520 Speaker 1: the largest core in the Union Army, the sext sitting 929 00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:31,640 Speaker 1: behind the hill. Oh yeah, And George Mead once that 930 00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:35,919 Speaker 1: for his reserve. Because George Mead is on that hill 931 00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:39,320 Speaker 1: back at Powers Hill. George Mead is not where his 932 00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:42,560 Speaker 1: statue is on Cemetery Hill. George Mead was not there 933 00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:45,240 Speaker 1: at the apex of Pickett's charge. George Mead was down 934 00:59:45,240 --> 00:59:48,320 Speaker 1: on Powers Hill next to the Baltimore Pike. And I 935 00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:52,120 Speaker 1: can remember years ago with my wife trapsing around Powers Hill, 936 00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:54,640 Speaker 1: literally before they'd cleaned it up, and you can see 937 00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:57,800 Speaker 1: where the monuments were. Trapsing around Powers Hie. I'm wondering, 938 00:59:57,840 --> 00:59:59,919 Speaker 1: what on earth is this here for? What are Union 939 01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:03,680 Speaker 1: verses here for? Why is Mead here at the climax 940 01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:06,360 Speaker 1: of the battle. Then I look at the Baltimore Pike, 941 01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:11,640 Speaker 1: and I realize why Mead expected to be overrun. The 942 01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:15,280 Speaker 1: Baltimore Pike was going to be the retreat path, and 943 01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:18,960 Speaker 1: Powers Hill was where he parks batteries of artillery to 944 01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:23,120 Speaker 1: cover that retreat. Even on the Union side, is a 945 01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:27,080 Speaker 1: real expectation that this attack of Lee's is going to succeed. 946 01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:30,320 Speaker 1: Now years later, somebody put the question to George Pickett, 947 01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:37,480 Speaker 1: why did the Confederate attack at Gettysburg fail. Pickett's response was, 948 01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:41,000 Speaker 1: I love this. Picket's response was, I think the Yankees 949 01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:44,640 Speaker 1: had something to do with it. And at the end 950 01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:47,640 Speaker 1: of the day, I think it really was the remarkable, 951 01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:52,960 Speaker 1: almost unpredictable tenacity of those Union soldiers from the Second Corps, 952 01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:58,760 Speaker 1: the Philadelphia Brigade, the fifty ninth New York, the twentieth Massachusetts, 953 01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:03,360 Speaker 1: the Choo Up remnants of the First Minnesota, the First Delaware, 954 01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:08,280 Speaker 1: the Harper's Ferry, Coward's Brigade. Those people were going to 955 01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:12,280 Speaker 1: die in their places rather than run. And much of 956 01:01:12,280 --> 01:01:16,160 Speaker 1: the credit for what happens on Cemetery Hill that afternoon 957 01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:21,200 Speaker 1: of July three is a tribute to Yankee Gumphen. It's 958 01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:25,439 Speaker 1: not a condemnation of Lee It's not suggesting that under 959 01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:29,040 Speaker 1: other circumstances, Lee wouldn't have succeeded. But at that moment, 960 01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:31,600 Speaker 1: those Union soldiers were going to die right where they 961 01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:34,480 Speaker 1: were rather than give in. They had had enough giving 962 01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:37,800 Speaker 1: in for two years previously. Well, and that may have 963 01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:44,640 Speaker 1: been the great psychological problem of finally fighting in Pennsylvania 964 01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:48,200 Speaker 1: on Union territory. That's certainly made a big difference, because 965 01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:50,480 Speaker 1: they knew they were on their home ground, and they 966 01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:54,480 Speaker 1: knew that if they lost here then that was really 967 01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:57,040 Speaker 1: going to be the end. If the Army of the 968 01:01:57,040 --> 01:02:02,320 Speaker 1: Potomac was defeated at Gettysburg, soldiers in that army speculated 969 01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:04,640 Speaker 1: afterwards that the army itself would have gone to pieces. 970 01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:07,480 Speaker 1: They've just been beaten too many times. It would have 971 01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:10,960 Speaker 1: gone to pieces. Lee would have crossed the Susquehanna, the 972 01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:14,520 Speaker 1: major cities, and the East coast would have erupted in riots. 973 01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:17,360 Speaker 1: As it is, New York City erupted in draft riots 974 01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:20,800 Speaker 1: two weeks after the battle. Can you imagine a situation 975 01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:24,320 Speaker 1: in which, with those draft riots prevailing in New York City, 976 01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:28,000 Speaker 1: the Mayor of New York City has to call in 977 01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:32,760 Speaker 1: Robert E. Lee a reserve order in New York City. 978 01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:38,080 Speaker 1: Is that impossible, Well, it's distant, but I would be 979 01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:40,880 Speaker 1: reluctant to say that it would have been impossible if 980 01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:44,360 Speaker 1: what had happened on Cemetery Hill in July third had 981 01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:47,000 Speaker 1: gone in the other direction. Your book is going to 982 01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:50,640 Speaker 1: do very well. I am confident it will be controversial 983 01:02:51,240 --> 01:02:53,840 Speaker 1: and that you will have people on the left who 984 01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:56,680 Speaker 1: are a guest that you could write a book that 985 01:02:56,760 --> 01:03:00,160 Speaker 1: doesn't Portrayalie as a devil and an evil person and 986 01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:04,280 Speaker 1: unworthy of being mentioned employed society. On the other hand, 987 01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:06,480 Speaker 1: I think it will turn out to be a great 988 01:03:06,520 --> 01:03:09,480 Speaker 1: contribution to the history of the United States. And I 989 01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:11,800 Speaker 1: always love chatting with you. You're one of the best 990 01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:14,480 Speaker 1: rack and tours that I ever have a chance to 991 01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:17,400 Speaker 1: learn from. And I really appreciate you taking the time 992 01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:20,400 Speaker 1: today to share with us about your book, and we 993 01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:22,680 Speaker 1: will have on our show page we will have a 994 01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:25,160 Speaker 1: link so people can buy the book, which, of course 995 01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:28,640 Speaker 1: is a smart author you would urge everyone to do 996 01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:32,200 Speaker 1: so they can personally have a copy. Absolutely, I'm all 997 01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:35,200 Speaker 1: in a favor of that. All right, I'll say one 998 01:03:35,240 --> 01:03:39,560 Speaker 1: more thing, ned about what governs writing a biography like this, 999 01:03:39,960 --> 01:03:42,640 Speaker 1: and maybe this will speak to people who would otherwise 1000 01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:44,880 Speaker 1: be a gas. Why are you writing about Robert Ela. 1001 01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:48,280 Speaker 1: I remember a comment from the great literary critic John 1002 01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:52,880 Speaker 1: Gardner in his book on Moral Fiction. He said, in 1003 01:03:52,960 --> 01:03:58,800 Speaker 1: great art, in true art, no true compassion without will, 1004 01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:05,240 Speaker 1: no true will without compassion. The historian has to make judgments. 1005 01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:07,120 Speaker 1: You have to exercise will, but you have to do 1006 01:04:07,160 --> 01:04:09,480 Speaker 1: it with compassion. You have to make the two meet. 1007 01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:13,080 Speaker 1: And that is what I've tried to do in this book. 1008 01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:15,880 Speaker 1: So I've made judgments, but I've also tried to operate 1009 01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:19,160 Speaker 1: within the sphere of what Gardner described as true compassion 1010 01:04:19,200 --> 01:04:24,120 Speaker 1: as well malice toward none, charity for all. So Lincoln 1011 01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:29,439 Speaker 1: has affected you, I believe. So thank you again. It's great, 1012 01:04:29,560 --> 01:04:36,400 Speaker 1: all right, Thank you, ned. Thank you to my guest 1013 01:04:36,440 --> 01:04:38,760 Speaker 1: Alan Gelzo. You can get a link to buy his 1014 01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:42,080 Speaker 1: new book, Robert E. Lee Alife on our show page 1015 01:04:42,240 --> 01:04:45,760 Speaker 1: at newtsworld dot com. News World is produced by English 1016 01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:50,880 Speaker 1: Sweet sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Debbie Myers, 1017 01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:55,920 Speaker 1: our producer is Gornsey Sloan, and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 1018 01:04:56,560 --> 01:04:59,840 Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. 1019 01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:03,840 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Gingridge three sixty. If 1020 01:05:03,880 --> 01:05:06,680 Speaker 1: you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple 1021 01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:10,280 Speaker 1: Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give 1022 01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:13,080 Speaker 1: us a review so others can learn what it's all about. 1023 01:05:13,640 --> 01:05:16,240 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of newts World can sign up from 1024 01:05:16,240 --> 01:05:20,200 Speaker 1: my three free weekly columns at Gingwidge three sixty dot 1025 01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:25,680 Speaker 1: com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.