WEBVTT - Sam Altman Returns as OpenAI CEO Amid Chaos 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.400 Hey, it's Carol and Tim and we have something new 0:00:02.440 --> 0:00:03.280 and exciting for you. 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:06.360 Everything you love about Bloomberg Radio is now in your car. 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:09.640 The new Bloomberg Business App now featuring Apple CarPlay and 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:10.320 Android Auto. 0:00:10.440 --> 0:00:13.960 Listen to your favorite Bloomberg Radio stations anytime. 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:17.000 Plus every Bloomberg podcast, the latest news, and more, all 0:00:17.079 --> 0:00:18.120 at the click of a button. 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:21.240 It's free and simple to use. Just download the Bloomberg 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:23.680 Business App on your smartphone and connect your phone to 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:24.200 your car. 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:27.360 The Bloomberg Business App now with Apple CarPlay and Android 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:30.200 Auto features. Download it free in the Apple App Store 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:31.400 or on Google Play. 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:35.839 Presented by our sponsor, Interactive Brokers, this. 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:40.560 Is Bloomberg Business Week Inside from the reporters and editors 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:44.120 who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus gloom 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:48.000 wal Business finance, and tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:52.960 Podcast with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:57.240 All right, folks, speaking of headlines, it's been fast and 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:00.560 furious over the last almost five days, and we finally 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:02.960 have an answer to will he or won't he? And 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:05.480 we are talking about Sam Altman because he is returning 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:07.920 to lead Open AI. If you're keeping track. It's been 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:10.920 fewer than five days after he was pushed out of 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:13.600 one of the world's most valuable startups, setting off a 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:16.880 shock back and forth trauma that transfixed Silicon Valley, and 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:20.120 I got to be honest, all of us and certainly 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:22.679 the global AI industry just kind of watching the play 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:23.240 by play here. 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:25.600 Okay, not everything is exactly the same as last Friday 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:29.320 before Altman was fired. There are some governance changes. There's 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:30.600 going to be an initial board. It's going to be 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:33.080 led by Brett Taylor, the former co co of Salesforce. 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:35.960 Larry Summers is going to be a director, Thearry's former 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:38.440 US Treasury Secretary. Also, we should note a paid contributor 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:42.080 to Bloomberg TV and existing member Adam DiAngelo, the co 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:44.640 founder and CEO of the question and answer site Cora. 0:01:44.760 --> 0:01:46.360 All right, so let's get two guys who've been all 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:48.440 over the story of the last one hundred and twenty hours. 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:51.840 Tom Giles back with us, executive editor at Bloomberg Technology. 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:55.720 He has been NonStop, name on no fewer than thirty 0:01:55.760 --> 0:01:57.640 eight stories and headlines in the last five days, although 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:00.000 I'm guessing there could be even more, a lot more 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:02.280 he's on Zoom in San Francisco. Van Deep Singh is 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:04.840 here in our Bloomberg Interactive Broker studio. He's senior Tech 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:08.079 industry analyst for Bloomberg Intelligence. P two has authored a 0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:09.919 handful of reports in the last few days about the 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:12.600 implications of this drama. So you guys are in the 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:14.800 thick of it, Hey, Tom, let me start with you. 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:16.040 Was this the best outcome? 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:23.120 Well, if you're Microsoft it, you know certainly they are 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:26.720 a winner in this equation. This is a company that 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:31.280 is the biggest shareholder in open Ai, and they were 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:36.279 also poised to hire Sam Altman should when he initially 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:39.560 was fired and then not rehired and they hired someone else. 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:43.560 And here Microsoft said all right, well we'll take him, 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:47.520 and suddenly about seven hundred of their seven hundred and seventy. 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:49.919 Employees said well, we're going to leave too. 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:54.000 So Microsoft comes away as a real big winner here. 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:58.120 I'd say Sam Altman and his inner circle also are 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:00.840 going to be big winners here in so far as 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:04.400 they come back to open ai, and they're going to 0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:09.520 push for a real reimagining and accelerating reimagining of what 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:12.600 this company is, what it stands for. And how quickly 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:17.360 it pushes toward commercialization and profitability and running itself like 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:20.720 a business. This is a company that started as a 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:26.560 nonprofit tasked with the exploration the scientific exploration of artificial intelligence, 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:28.519 and it certainly is still doing that. 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:31.840 But what you've seen Sam do over the years is 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:34.840 push it further and further into the direction of being 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:40.280 a business and driving business that's growing, attracting investors, bringing 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:45.720 in creating products, and lining up customers, and those things 0:03:45.760 --> 0:03:46.720 sometimes are at. 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:52.320 Lockerheads with something that's more of a scientific philosophical approach. 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:55.760 To the exploration of artificial intelligence, and that thing really 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:58.600 came to a head that is firing on Friday. 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:01.200 So now he comes back, and I think there's going 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:07.040 to be an accelerated reimaginating, reimagining what this company is fascinating. 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:08.960 So, Man, deeve comean and you've been writing a lot 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:11.840 of research. Microsoft and Open Eye. Do they need each other? 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:12.840 Why or why not? 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:16.960 I mean, they absolutely need each other. And the last 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:20.760 week has shown how much Microsoft is invested in AI 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:22.680 to the point that you know they were willing to 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:26.720 take the entire staff and you know, have them as employees. Look, 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:29.440 I mean the original if you go back, you know, 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:33.520 one year when Microsoft originally partnered with open EI. The 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:38.160 idea was they wanted open Ai to use a Microsoft 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:41.840 Azure's compute capacity. They wanted, you know, to be that 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:46.839 early cloud player that positioned itself well in generative AI. 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:50.800 And they did that. It worked. Then they standardize everything, 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:54.000 you know, their co pilots their search around open AI. 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:57.719 When you look at the competitors, Amazon and Google, the 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:01.320 two competitors in cloud, the growth has slowed down in 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:04.599 cloud this year because they didn't have that generative AI 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:10.080 Open Ai aspect of it. And I think it's interesting 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:14.560 given how much you know, Microsoft benefited this thing happening 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:19.960 so suddenly really caught them off card and they've probably 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:22.680 helped steady the ship. But I still think there's a 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:25.839 lot more to common in terms of transparency why it happened. 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:29.240 Were they any safety issues that the other board members fell. 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:32.279 Obviously the employees didn't believe in the earlier board, so 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:35.440 the board had to change. But I still think there's 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:38.560 more answers that will come out in due course of time. 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:41.120 Yeah, and I think that reporting is going to continue 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:43.360 to trickle out. So no sleep for either of you 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:45.760 guys over the Thanksgiving holiday, although that's not what I 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:47.640 wish for you. Hey, Tom, come on back in here. 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:51.359 Carol asked you about the winners here? What about the 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:54.720 losers here? Are there any competing companies who who you know, 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:57.400 could have had an opportunity to kind of seize the moment, 0:05:57.480 --> 0:06:00.800 But now that Altman is back at open ai, they 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:01.800 lost that opportunity. 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:07.960 Well, I think if you are a competing company and 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:12.479 you were, you know, looking on Friday afternoon the minute 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:14.640 he got fired, I am sure that he was being 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:19.400 inundated with offers because people see him as a true visionary. 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:23.280 They see him as the driving force behind the successes 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:27.000 that open ai has has cranked out over the last 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:31.320 several years, but in particular in the last year and 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:35.280 the pace at which those are coming out. But what 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:40.000 man Deep said was was really true. When when Microsoft 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:42.880 partnered with open ai in such a dramatic way to 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:47.360 the tune of ten plus billion dollars, that really catapulted 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:50.119 them to the forefront ahead of people like Google. 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:54.640 Companies like Google, which should have been, for all intents and. 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:59.000 Purposes, the true leader in artificial intelligence, they had deep mind, 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:01.719 they had their own house that this Deep Mind is. 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:03.480 The artificial intelligence startup that they. 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:05.880 Bought in the UK, which is really at the cutting 0:07:05.960 --> 0:07:09.080 edge of this research. They had their own in house 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:14.720 AI effort and they just moved too slowly on generative AI. 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:18.560 And so when you saw Microsoft really strengthen his partnership 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:21.680 with open AI, that really lit a fire under Google. 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:26.200 And Google remains on its back foot in all of this. 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:28.320 And you're going to see if man Eve said, You're 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:32.680 going to see Microsoft incorporate not only benefit from open 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:35.080 AI because of the computing power and its use of 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:38.920 their cloud services, but also incorporating generative AI into more 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:42.520 and more of their products and making those products even 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:46.560 being this search engine that none of us uses, maybe 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:49.760 even making being more relevant. Not to mention what they 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:52.920 do to their business products that are the real lifeblood 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:56.240 of Microsoft's revenue stream. 0:07:56.160 --> 0:07:58.480 Come on in man No, and that's a risk, right. 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:00.920 So if you look at the Amazon and Google approach, 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:04.240 they want to develop their own large anglid model, and 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:06.520 you know all their products will be driven off of 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:09.400 their own large anguage model. Open the Eye is still 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:13.600 an independent entity. Granted Microsoft has a forty nine percent steak, 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:17.720 but tomorrow, if things fall apart, and you know, again 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:20.559 Sam is back running the company, so you would hope 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:23.960 things stabilize, but that's a big risk for Microsoft not 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:26.800 having its own large, languid model. 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:29.760 I feel like, you know, we kidded yesterday that it 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:32.320 was TBD, and I still feel like there's still TBD 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:35.000 to be you know, kind of in this story in 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:37.480 terms of what happens with Open Eye AI in the future, 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:41.319 or whether or not somebody big comes out and is 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:43.000 a real challenger to that company. 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:45.160 I don't know if there's anyone out there who. 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:48.240 There is Anthropic, I mean, is that Open the Eye 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:49.439 employees who started that. 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:51.400 Carol was talking about it earlier today. 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:54.520 Yeah, and both Google and Amazon have taken a steak 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:55.959 in the company, so just. 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:58.560 That So it's amazing because they're sort of like these 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:00.120 you know, I don't want to call them ponds, but 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:02.679 they're like these avatars of the larger companies that are duking. 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:04.640 They used to call Tiger cubs, you know, off of 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:06.520 you know, Tiger Management. 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:09.160 Yeah, and the reason why Anthropic was started. 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:12.120 Because the co founders felt. 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:15.560 Exactly, yeah, guys, listen, we have to go We're gonna 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:17.760 continue with this, no doubt about it, get some sleep, 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:20.000 can't wait to see all of the research and reporting 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:22.640 that continues to come, certainly from Tom Giles and the 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:25.400 Bloomberg Technology team, and of course mandates saying over at 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:26.559 Bloomberg Intelligence. 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:30.480 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:33.880 live weekday afternoons from three to six Eastern Listen on 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:37.959 Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business App, 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:41.640 or watch us Live on YouTube. 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:43.760 To a couple of stories on the Bloomberg Today. One 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:47.120 was about how clean energy funds are dirt. They basically 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:49.920 slumped roughly thirty percent this year, after losing almost five 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:52.560 percent of their value in twenty twenty two and a 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:56.359 whopping twenty three percent in twenty twenty one. The renewables 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:58.880 industry has been battered by rising interest rates, which have 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:02.800 been a special damaging for new solar projects, and disappointing 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:06.079 earnings caused largely by those higher capital costs and then 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:07.120 lower profit margins. 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:09.600 I don't get it for a few reasons. Yeah, we'll 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:12.400 get into it, but we know this is the direction 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:14.280 that things are going to go. We know that the 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:17.360 Biden administration has unleashed a torreative funds in the Inflation 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:23.120 Reduction Act. So anyway, you know, that's kind of confounding 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:23.400 to me. 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:25.480 Especially in a year that's on track to be the 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:27.160 hottest year yet. We're not quite at the end of 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:29.720 the year, but pretty much pointing there. So let's get 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:32.440 to it with Rich Lesser see what he has to 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:34.680 say about all of this, his global chair at Boston 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:38.160 Consulting Group, headed to the upcoming Global Climate Conference COP 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:41.640 twenty eight in Dubai. Riches on zoom in Boston. Rich, 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:45.200 Nice to have you here with Tim and myself. It's 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:48.959 been hard to be anything esg tell us though, specifically 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:51.760 about companies and what they are doing when it comes 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:55.280 to sustainability and climate change goals. 0:10:56.720 --> 0:11:00.960 So it's a pleasure to be with you, Carol and Tim. Look, 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:05.200 I think corporate efforts on climate and sustainability continue to 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:09.600 move forward. We see commitments to science based targets growing, 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:14.000 We see investments in many places growing. Many of the 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:17.480 leaders in this space have continued their agendas. But as 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:21.240 your intro pointed out, it is a more challenging time, 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:24.680 particularly in the US, because of the various uncertainties the 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:28.840 economics and particularly interest rates and the recent baut of inflation, 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:32.360 which is coming down but still left capital more expensive, 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:37.920 the political uncertainties inside the US, the regulatory uncertainties with 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:42.200 the SEC proposal. So while it's encouraging to see the 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:44.640 actions of a number of companies, we do not have 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:47.640 as much broad based action as we need from governments 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:51.200 or from businesses at this point. Obviously, IRA is a 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:53.199 bright spot in that, as is some of the actions 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:55.480 in Europe and other countries. We have a long way 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:58.280 still to go, and we're not on track for what 0:11:58.320 --> 0:11:59.000 the world needs. 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:01.120 So what gets us on track for what the world's 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:03.720 world needs is it sort of a whole of government approach, 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:05.880 cooperation across different nations. 0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:09.360 Well, that will really help. I mean, we don't know 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:11.920 what will come out of this cup, but there's some 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:17.319 opportunities that could be substantial in energy and heavy emitting 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:20.840 industries and food and agriculture, in finance, so there are 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:23.960 a number of areas that could be encouraging areas of progress. 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:26.240 I don't think we'll be at the end of the 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:28.559 same we've solved everything we haven't been for the prior 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:31.360 twenty seven cops, we won't be at this one. But 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:34.200 I think we could meaningfully move forward. But then there's 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:38.679 the actions that individual countries take, whether it's around support 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:43.040 for new technologies, finding ways not necessarily with a carbon tax, 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:46.199 but other ways to put a price on carbon, getting 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:50.200 addressing permitting issues which are such an inhibitor, using government 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:53.720 procurement itself as a lever to accelerate progress. And then 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:56.680 there's a lot of corporate actions that are possible, not 0:12:56.840 --> 0:13:00.120 just inside the four walls of the individual company, but 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:02.560 what it does in its supply chain, how it supports 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:06.520 it customers, how it works together with others in their sectors, 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:10.200 whether it's on labeling, transparency, or finding new sources of 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:12.920 supply for the whole sector. There are lots of ways 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:15.720 to make progress that we're using to some degree. We 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:16.720 need to go much further. 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:19.160 Tell me out here, though. There are companies who put 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:27.679 out sustainability goals, missions commitments, and then there's governments who 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:30.520 say you got to do this by twenty twenty something 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:33.480 or whatever, or twenty thirty or twenty forty. What is 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:36.840 it that really ultimately moves the needle for me? It's 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:39.280 terror I feel like it was terrifying to see some 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:41.040 of the headlines or it'll be in New York with 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:45.160 orange skies, or to be day after day. 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:48.200 Worried about day based flooding in your basement because you 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:50.840 know every three years there's sort of a once in 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:52.880 a century exactly. 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:57.320 Rainstorm exactly, so exactly those things terrify me and feel like, Okay, 0:13:57.320 --> 0:13:59.160 we've got to be doing something different. So what is 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:02.040 it that ultimately moves the needle? Because I feel like 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:04.720 commitments and goals, I don't know that you really have 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:06.480 to ultimately abide by them. 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:11.520 So obviously, what makes it so much easier to go 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:15.360 faster is when doing the right thing as regards to 0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:19.880 climate and sustainability aligns closely with your own business economics 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:23.400 to drive sustained business performance. I mean, that's the magic 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:27.280 formula that allows everybody to invest fast. That's why things 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:32.040 like IRA were so important because for many types of investments, 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:35.360 it fundamentally takes the economics from a place where it 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:38.400 didn't make financial sense to where it does. But there's 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:41.960 still many, many parts of the economy where IRA is 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:43.000 a step in the right direction. 0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:45.560 You're talking about the Inflation Reduction Act passed in twenty 0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:48.920 twenty two, where there was a lot of investing into 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:53.200 domestic energy production and also the promotion of clean energy, 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:56.920 So there was money committed to this mission. 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:01.920 That's exactly right. The IRA bill set aside four hundred billion, 0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:05.360 but uncapped, and it will likely be much higher, both 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:08.880 to support the broader energy transition that we need in 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:12.520 the US, but also to support new technologies that would 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:15.760 encourage us to lower the cost of those technologies, build scale, 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:19.760 do other things. But still, in many, many cases, the 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:22.400 economics aren't as clear as they need to be on 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:24.000 shifting to new technology. 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:26.880 The why aren't they? Why aren't they? Why aren't they? 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:29.120 Is it because they are still more expensive? Or is 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:31.000 it that governments. 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:32.720 Makes still more expensive? Yeah, I mean if you're trying 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:35.360 to make steel or aluminum or cement, or fly an 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:39.400 airplane or do a whole range of things. The technologies 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:42.880 that would allow you to decarbonize now exist, but those 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:47.520 technologies are often substantially more expensive than the technologies build 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:50.640 around the basic fossil fuel economy. The good news is 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:55.080 IRA has fundamentally changed that economic equation for some of 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:58.800 those things. That's why you see so much investment coming 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:02.360 into the US from US companies but from around the world. 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:05.640 It was a very meaningful bill, but we need to 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:08.640 be ready to go further. And I think that if 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:11.960 we can go further, we can accelerate progress. And I 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:16.720 think cop is one of the opportunities on everything from 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:20.880 food and agriculture to the leakage of methane to heavy 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:24.600 industries that are really challenged to decarbonize, where we need 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:26.960 agreements and we need the world to come together that 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:30.200 we need to make it easier. Just as a final point, 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:33.120 a lot of the challenge will be in the global South, 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:35.800 will be in low and middle income countries. That if 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:39.440 it's hard for play the richer part of the world 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:41.640 to afford the capital and deal with inflation, you can 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.600 imagine how hard that is in other parts of the world. 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:46.880 And there's a lot that we can do to make 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:50.760 the financing easier and make it more affordable to accelerate 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:55.000 that decarbonization. And that's where a lot of carbon emissions 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:59.080 are growing because those companies those countries are adding energy 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:01.080 infrastructure to populations. 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:04.320 Hey, Rich, what's the relationship between the price of a 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:09.119 barrel of oil and investments that are made in decarbonizing, 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:12.520 Because right now we're seeing oil at seventy six dollars 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:16.159 a barrel compared to you know where things were, gosh, 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:18.640 just may have come down a line, you know, may 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:20.760 of twenty twenty two or over one hundred and twenty 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:23.600 dollars a barrel, So explain the relationship. 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:29.200 Look, it cuts both ways. The good news is if 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:32.119 people are confident that oil will stay at a reasonably 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:36.680 high price, then that makes the competing low carbon technologies 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:41.080 look even more attractive. So in many ways, when fossil 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:43.719 fuel prices are higher and people believe they're going to 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:46.920 stay higher, then when they run their calculations of should 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:51.919 we invest in lower emissions technologies, those investments look smarter. 0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:56.280 On the flip side, obviously, that helps people that are 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:59.240 in the industry, in the energy economy, in fossil fuels 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:01.199 at a you know, make a lot of money in 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:04.440 that space, and some of that money has been diverted 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:09.400 into new technologies and into decarbonizing technologies, but not as 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:12.640 you know, we need much more, much more. We're underfinancing 0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:16.320 the global transformation by probably two trillion dollars a year, 0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:18.280 so real money needs to go into it. 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:20.359 Just got about twenty five seconds left here, rich, So 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:22.919 if the economy softens a little bit, will it make 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:23.679 it even harder? 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:28.920 Sure, uncertainty makes it harder. The more people feel confident 0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:31.679 that the economic road ahead is good, the more confident 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:34.480 they are to invest in their future, and decarbonizing the 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:36.920 world is probably the most important investment we need to make. 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:38.760 All right, Gonna leave it on that note, Hey, Rich, 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:42.040 thank you so much. Happy Thanksgiving. Rich Lesser, he's global 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:45.359 chair at Boston Consulting Group, and as we mentioned earlier, 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:48.120 headed to the upcoming Global Climate Conference COP twenty eight 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:51.280 in Dubai, and you certainly made some references to some 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:52.720 of what's going to be going on there. 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:57.080 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 0:18:57.080 --> 0:19:00.199 live weekday afternoons from three to six Easter here on 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:03.960 Bloomberg Radio, the Bloomberg Business App and YouTube. You can 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:07.199 also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:11.040 York station, Just Say Alexa playing Bloomberg eleven thirty. 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:12.800 Well. 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:16.080 Around one thousand nurses at hospitals in Wichita, Kansas are 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:18.880 planning a one day strike in December over staffing issues 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:21.240 and what they claim are unsafe conditions. Another more than 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:24.040 five hundred nurses just outside of Chicago went on strike 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:27.080 over what they say we're unfair labor practices and then Carol, 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:29.800 a five day strike of more than thirteen hundred nurses 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:32.280 in Washington ended over the weekend. They were looking for 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:34.679 more staffing, higher pay, and better patient safety. 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:37.680 Sounds like they want different conditions, better conditions. These strikes 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:40.280 are all on top of the largest ever healthcare work 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:43.560 stoppage that was happening in October when more than seventy 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:47.400 five thousand Kaiser permanent day workers went on a three 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:51.040 day strike accusing management of refusing to bargain in good 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:53.920 faith over the short staffing issue. Well, needless to say, 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:56.320 healthcare workers across the country, really around the world, to 0:19:56.359 --> 0:19:59.800 be fair, are feeling under pressure when it comes to burnout, 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:03.040 shortage of resources, pay, and more so, Tim, you got 0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:05.960 to ask, what's the solution because we need healthcare workers. 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:07.320 Well, there are a lot of people working to find 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:10.360 a solution right now. Aloha McBride is EY Global Health 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:14.199 Leader for EY. The company recently came out with a 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:16.719 study based on more than one hundred interviews with healthcare 0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:20.000 executives and clinicians in eleven countries, and what they're trying 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:22.480 to do is get to a better model. Aloha joins 0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:25.520 us right now on Zoom from Lansdown, Virginia. Lohaw, good 0:20:25.520 --> 0:20:28.000 to have you with us this afternoon. How would you 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:31.119 characterize the state of the healthcare worker, not just in 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:32.359 the US, but around the world. 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:36.520 Thank you so much for having me on the program. Listen, 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:40.119 I can tell you we saw these results across eleven countries, 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:42.720 and what you were just talking about is exactly what 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:47.760 we saw. This feeling of no control, a lack of autonomy, 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:53.760 being burdened with administration, and really feeling a moral injury 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:59.280 around real concerns for their patients' safety is really prevalent 0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:02.479 across the glows. I mean we're talking in every single country. 0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:04.320 We saw those themes loud and clear. 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:08.679 So is it something in particular coming off the pandemic 0:21:09.040 --> 0:21:12.440 where the trends already starting heading into the pandemic? Give us, 0:21:12.520 --> 0:21:13.760