1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,040 Speaker 1: I think in nineteen eighty seven there was something like 2 00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: one hundred and ninety eight serial killers, and today there 3 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:08,319 Speaker 1: are supposedly only twelve. But I don't know if that's 4 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: true because I work a lot of cases and I've 5 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: in the past month have encountered at least two technical 6 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: serial killers, but they weren't prosecuted for the murders that 7 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: they committed, so they're not being caught. 8 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 2: You've reached American History Hotline. You asked the questions, We 9 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 2: get the answers. Leave a message. Hey, they're American History Hotliners. 10 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 2: Bob Crawford here, thrilled to be joining you again for 11 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 2: another episode of American History Hotline. We love all your questions, 12 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 2: so keep them coming and remember to send us a question, 13 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 2: record yourself with a voice memo or a video on 14 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 2: your phone and email it to Americanhistoryhotline at gmail dot com. 15 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 2: That's a Mari History Hotline at gmail dot com. Okay, 16 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 2: now to today's question. It's a bit of a dark one. 17 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 2: It's about serial killers. Here to help me answer the 18 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 2: question is Catherine Townsend. She's the host of the podcasts 19 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 2: Helling Gone, Murder Line and Red Collar. 20 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: Hi, how are you I'm great. I'm very excited to 21 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:28,759 Speaker 1: be here, very excited to be here, and very excited 22 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:29,399 Speaker 1: to talk about this. 23 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're excited to speak with you about it. Okay, Catherine, 24 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 2: here's the question we were hoping you could help us answer. 25 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 2: It's from Dave in San Louis Obispo, California. He writes, 26 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 2: why were there so many serial killers in the seventies 27 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 2: and are there fewer today now? Catherine, I imagine there 28 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 2: are a lot of reasons for this. So let's just 29 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 2: start with a definition. What is a serial killer? 30 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: So technically a serial killer is some one who kills 31 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: three or more victims with a cooling off period, which 32 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: differentiates it from something like a mass shooting where there's 33 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: more than three victims. But it's you know, all at once. 34 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: That's the technical definition. And I can talk a little 35 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,639 Speaker 1: bit about why I think that serial killers have been 36 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 1: very pigeonholed since the seventies in my opinion, but we 37 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: can get into that later. 38 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 2: Okay, So then, what are some of the traits you 39 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 2: talked about? Three or more, three or more murders and 40 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 2: then a break right, dig into that a little bit. 41 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: Well, So, in other words, I think that when Okay, 42 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: when we watch shows like mind Hunter and we talk 43 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: about you know, the FBI criminal profilers, we think of 44 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 1: serial killers as the traditional lone wolf, white male killer 45 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: who stalks and needs to kill, and you know, these 46 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: are people like Ted Bundy or Ed Geen, And I 47 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 1: think that's what the public has thought of as a 48 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: serial killer for a really long time. But what we're 49 00:02:58,040 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: coming to find out is that a lot of that 50 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: is actually not true. For example, only about I was 51 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:07,079 Speaker 1: reading that only about fifty percent or so serial killers 52 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: are white. There are a lot of other, you know, 53 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: minority groups represented there, but unfortunately, I think that people 54 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: just weren't focusing on catching them, or for other reasons, 55 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,799 Speaker 1: weren't really looking for these victims. You have things like 56 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: the Atlanta child killer, and in that case you have 57 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: multiple African American victims, but no one was looking for 58 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: these people for a long time, and so I think 59 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:33,839 Speaker 1: that there could be a lot more out there than 60 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: people realize. Actually, the statistics tell us that something like, 61 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: I think in nineteen eighty seven there was something like 62 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: one hundred and ninety eight serial killers and today there's 63 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: supposedly only twelve. But I don't know if that's true 64 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: because I work a lot of cases and i've in 65 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: the past month have encountered at least two technical serial killers, 66 00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: but they weren't prosecuted for the murders that they committed, 67 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: so they're not being caught. 68 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 2: So you're saying right now, out there somewhere there are 69 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 2: at least twelve active serial killers. 70 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: That's what the research says. Yes, and when we talk 71 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 1: about why they are fewer now than since the seventies, 72 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: if in fact that's true, which is another question. I 73 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 1: think there are a lot of reasons. I've seen everything 74 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: from lead and lead pipes blamed to a lot of 75 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 1: the serial killers coming up in the seventies and eighties 76 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: where the children of Vietnam veterans and those people experienced 77 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 1: a lot of PTSD. There was less mental health in 78 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: the home, you know, talk about mental health, so maybe 79 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: these children were abused. There are a lot of theories. 80 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 1: For my money, it comes down to I do another 81 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: podcast called Red Collar where it's all about white collar 82 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: criminals who kill. And when you talk about the triangle 83 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: of fraud, Okay, you've got opportunity, pressure, rationalization. So pressure 84 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: and rationalization are things that come from within you can 85 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 1: you know, just like a serial killer, you can rationalize it, 86 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 1: you have this emotional need to do it. The big 87 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: thing that we can't control is opportunity. An opportunity really 88 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: for me, is about the victim pool. Back in the 89 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 1: seventies and eighties, you had this huge pool of victims, 90 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 1: mainly I mean a lot of hitchhikers, and you also 91 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,279 Speaker 1: had sex workers who were kind of off the grid. 92 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: You still have that today. You had a lot less 93 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: ability to DNA test. None of the law enforcement agencies 94 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: talk to each other in the way they do now, 95 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 1: so you have less cohesiveness there. And I think it 96 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 1: was kind of this perfect storm that allowed these people to, 97 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: if they felt like killing someone, get away with it. 98 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 2: A lot of people point to ed Gean Right as 99 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 2: the first serial killer, but we know there have been 100 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 2: There were others before HH Holmes, who gained notoriety through 101 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 2: Eric Larson's book The Devil in the White City. Can 102 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 2: we say who was the first, let's say, American serial 103 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 2: killer because HH Holmes was active around the time of 104 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 2: Jack the Ripper in London. 105 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: Correct, Yes, So, I mean, honestly, I don't think we 106 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 1: know about the first serial killer. There was and it 107 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: might have been after H. Tolms, but it was. There 108 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: was this guy, Albert Fish who killed a lot of 109 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 1: children and wasn't found until much later. 110 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 2: But I think the time period was he. 111 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: You know, I can't exactly remember. I want to say 112 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirty, so that would have been later, okay, 113 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: But I think of that's kind of someone I think 114 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: of as being early serial killer. But I don't think 115 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 1: we know about the first serial killers. I think they've 116 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: been around a really long time doing bad things. But 117 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: the problem is the technology to catch them didn't exist. 118 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 1: And again, like law enforcement agencies didn't talk to each 119 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: other the way they did now. There was no national database. 120 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 1: For a long time before there were computers, Each individual 121 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: police agency was researching things on paper, you know, I mean, 122 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 1: and they would have to wait months and years to 123 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 1: get results back. So I think that had a lot 124 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: to do with it. It was much easier to kill someone 125 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: in one geographical area and then get away with it. 126 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 2: So if we're trying to figure out what creates a 127 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 2: critical mass right of serial killers in one decade or 128 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 2: in one time period, you know, we talk about the 129 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 2: scars of war and those coming home and children being 130 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 2: emotionally neglected and abused, and then they grew up and 131 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 2: they become serial killers HH Holmes or maybe lead poisoning. 132 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 2: Maybe HH Holmes was the victim of lead poisoning. But 133 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 2: if we see these serial killers in different decades, maybe 134 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 2: what makes a serial killer isn't time sensitive, right, isn't 135 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 2: to one error. Maybe it's a human flaw. 136 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: I think it is. And I also think that it's 137 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: a big question is you know, look, these are not 138 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: completely These people are asking themselves, what's my chances of 139 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: getting caught? Will I get away with this? And we 140 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: see this overall types of crime, And the fact is 141 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: during the seventies and eighties, they had a much better 142 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: chance of getting away with it than they do today. Also, 143 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: we haven't even talked about things like DNA technology and 144 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: the ability to catch people months and years later. The 145 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: fact of the matter is, if you killed somebody in 146 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: the seventies and eighties, especially if it was a victim. Sadly, 147 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,239 Speaker 1: a lot of these people who were targeted were sex workers. 148 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: No one was looking for these people. So if you know, 149 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: they would have a really good chance of getting away 150 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,319 Speaker 1: with it. I mean, the crime clearance rate today actually 151 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 1: is only about fifty to sixty percent, and that's not 152 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 1: even counting all the people who are out there missing. 153 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: So I do think that, but I do think that 154 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: in general today killers are much more aware of technology 155 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: and they know that they will probably not get away 156 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: with it, and they might get caught, and DNA might 157 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: get them months or years later. 158 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 2: Let's jump to these sixties and seventies, Okay, okay, who 159 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 2: were some of the serial killers who were active at 160 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:00,439 Speaker 2: this time. 161 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: Well, you had Richard Ramirez, the night Stalker. You had 162 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: Ted Bundy, you had Bueno and Bianchi, the Hillside Stranglers. 163 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: You had, I suppose, during the same time, the Golden 164 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: State Killer. I mean, there were lots of serial killers 165 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: during that era. And then you also had this was 166 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: more recent, but you had the Long Island serial killer 167 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:26,559 Speaker 1: on the East Coast. So these guys were and these 168 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 1: guys got away with it for a long time, and 169 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: they were pretty brazen about picking women up. I think 170 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: that's also the other factor that comes into this with 171 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: when we talk about the victim pool, you're also talking 172 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: about the sixties and seventies, a time period when many 173 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: more young women are going out into the workforce and 174 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: going to hang out in groups or by themselves and 175 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 1: hitch hiking. Hitchhiking is a huge factor. 176 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, talk about the automobile, right, and that and that 177 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 2: as a as a tool of stalking and a tool 178 00:09:58,640 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 2: of killing. 179 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: Well, I mean it was the hitch hiking trend was 180 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: before my time. But whenever I talked to my parents 181 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: or I talked to people who you know, were around 182 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: back then, they talk about how common it was to 183 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: get a ride. 184 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 2: I mean it was. 185 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: It was people just thought nothing of hitching a ride, 186 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: you know, getting a ride somewhere. And if someone picked 187 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 1: you up and took you somewhere you didn't want to go. 188 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: There was no cell phone or GPS or anything like that. 189 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 1: You literally disappeared and you were just gone. And also 190 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:29,679 Speaker 1: compound that with the fact that a lot of these 191 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: people sometimes there were people who were free spirits and 192 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,839 Speaker 1: maybe they'd left home and so they weren't missed right away, 193 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,199 Speaker 1: which is another problem because then you missed the critical 194 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: twenty four to forty eight hours. Yeah, I mean, the 195 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: automobile is like the perfect perfect tool for a serial 196 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: killer really, because it lets people entice their victim in 197 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 1: and they have them in their environment and then they 198 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:55,319 Speaker 1: can you know, they have control of the situation, They 199 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: can take them away from the primary location. 200 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 2: When you think about the the late sixties and there 201 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 2: were a lot of kids who were running away from 202 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 2: home and going to San Francisco or you know, free 203 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 2: love and everything we think about with that era, it 204 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 2: seems and even into the seventies, like you know, there 205 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 2: was this lost generation, right, so it was really about 206 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 2: opportunity and targets. It seems like it would be a prime. 207 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 1: Time Oh yeah, I mean, think about it. If you are, 208 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: if you're sort of you know, hippie free love going 209 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 1: to a rock show or something like that, and then 210 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: you disappear, you've got kind of again like a perfect 211 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: storm of events. First of all, people wouldn't necessarily be 212 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 1: alarmed right away and start looking for you. There's no 213 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: way to trace, you know, there's no cell phones, there's 214 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: no surveillance cameras back then. I think people now in 215 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: this generation have a hard time even imagining how free 216 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: it was. You just you could disappear for a few 217 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: days and no one would hear from you, and that 218 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: was not unusual. I feel like now also, that's another thing. 219 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: People use cell phones. People are much more. Even if 220 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 1: they are free spirits, they're in communication somehow, often where 221 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: you can track their location or something. I travel around 222 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: all the time, all around the world, and my mom 223 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: is always saying, you know, please just at least share 224 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: your location with us. And I kind of laugh because 225 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: when I was sixteen years old, i lived in Paris. 226 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 1: There was no way for my parents to find me. 227 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 1: They would hear from me once a week when I 228 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: called on a phone card. And I'm always thinking about 229 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:27,839 Speaker 1: how lucky anything could have happened to me. Really, I mean, 230 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: it just takes a lot longer. There was long longer 231 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:31,079 Speaker 1: legs in communication. 232 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, and there are things now with if you have kids, 233 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 2: you have Life three sixty and you have at your 234 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 2: the iPhone, you can set it up where you know 235 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 2: where your child is at all times, or at least 236 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 2: where their cell phone is at all times. 237 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know where their device is, right. But I agree, 238 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: I think that there and I think also it's not 239 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: only that parents have used it. I mean, I think 240 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: teenager for the most part, a lot of people feel 241 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: that it is a safety feature that they want for 242 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: that reason. And uh, yeah, I just had nothing like 243 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: that in the sixties. Seventies, eighties, nineties, that was just 244 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: non existent, so it took much longer. And also even 245 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: things like amber alerts are pretty recent, so you just 246 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: there was no way of knowing someone was missing, and 247 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: there was this hole you have to wait twenty four 248 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: or forty eight hours, which is no longer true, but sadly, 249 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff got missed in those crucial time periods. 250 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 2: So the more you learn about some of these killers 251 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,439 Speaker 2: like John Wayne Gacy and Jeffrey Dahmer you know, we're 252 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 2: getting into the eighties and nineties now, the more you 253 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 2: realize how sloppy they were. 254 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:37,359 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, they were not. These were not master criminals. 255 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: They had luck and they had a lot of opportunity 256 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 1: with their victim pool. Like Okay, Jeffreydamer is a really 257 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:48,359 Speaker 1: good example because a lot of people who he encountered 258 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 1: were leading double lives. Sadly, due to that time period, 259 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: a lot of them were not you know, out, they 260 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: were not gay openly, and so that was also another opportunity. 261 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: If they're not telling someone in their lives, people closes 262 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: to them, what's actually going on, then it becomes hard 263 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: to investigate because then you've got to figure out that 264 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:10,079 Speaker 1: whole aspect, and again no cell phones, no tracking devices. Yeah, 265 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: they were very sloppy. I mean he was leaving body 266 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 1: parts in his kitchen and it's that whole thing is 267 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 1: just so sad. 268 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 2: Are there examples that you can think of where the 269 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 2: cops had these people in there, you know, basically in 270 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 2: their clutches and let them go. 271 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: Well, Jeffrey Dahmer, one of his victims was fourteen years 272 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: old and didn't speak English and got away from him 273 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: and was running naked through the streets and the police 274 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: actually brought the fourteen year old back to Jeffrey Dahmer's 275 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 1: place and he ended up killing him, and that, to 276 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: me is incredibly tragic. I think there was a lot 277 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: less also. I think in general there was just police 278 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: saw it, unfortunately as a sort of some sort of 279 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: lover's spat that he want to get involved with, and 280 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: they didn't protect this child, which is also tragic. 281 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 2: This is American History Hotline. I'm your host Bob Crawford Today. 282 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 2: My guest is Katherine Townsend. She's the host of the 283 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 2: podcasts Helen Gone, Murder Line and Red Collar. We're talking 284 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 2: about why the nineteen seventies was rife with serial killers. Remember, 285 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 2: send us your burning questions about American history to American 286 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 2: History Hotline at gmail dot com. You can leave us 287 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 2: a voice memo message. You can write us an email. 288 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 2: If you want make us a video to send it 289 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 2: to Americanhistory Hotline at gmail dot com. Now back to 290 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 2: the show. Let's talk about the victims of these killers. 291 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 2: You mentioned the poor young boy who who the cops 292 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 2: took back to Jeffrey Dahmer and then he killed them. 293 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 2: We talked, and we talked about racial minorities, gay or 294 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 2: sex workers, talk about the police and the for looking 295 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 2: of the marginalized in the late twentieth century. 296 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: Well, the sad thing about the overlooking of marginalized people 297 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: is that it's still happening today. I do think it's 298 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: gotten better, there's more education, but it's something that I see. 299 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: I cover forty eight cases a year or something like that, 300 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: and I see it all the time. I think that 301 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: there are a few things going on. I think that sometimes, 302 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: as with the Jeffrey Dahmer example, the police see a 303 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: situation and just they don't want to get involved in 304 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: some sort of subculture. Maybe they don't understand and so 305 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: they just won't get involved, sometimes often with either with 306 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 1: both with sex workers, but also just with teenage girls 307 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: who disappear. There's this attitude of, oh, well, you know, 308 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 1: they were dating a bunch of different people, and you know, 309 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: maybe they'll come back, or they treat it as if 310 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: there's a lot of there's still quite a bit of 311 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: victim blaming that goes on. In my opinion, that's. 312 00:16:57,640 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 2: What this sounds like to me. 313 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was working on a case where one of 314 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,360 Speaker 1: my first big cases, and I literally had the investigator saying, 315 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 1: we're talking about a twenty two year old college student 316 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 1: who had been staying with her boyfriend but had been 317 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 1: dating some other people went missing, and he made the 318 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: comment he said, well, with the lifestyle she was living, 319 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 1: what did she expect? And I just was I was 320 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: actually stunned because I just thought, I can't believe this 321 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: is where we are in two thousand at the time, 322 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,919 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, but it still happens. And I feel like 323 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 1: a lot of people are just not being looked for. 324 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: But then from the other side, they're not being reported 325 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: missing either right away, and that's a big problem for 326 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: an investigation. That does make things a lot harder in 327 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 1: the police's defense that makes things a lot harder. 328 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 2: I can't stop thinking about these active cases like here, 329 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 2: I thought we were going to talk about the past, 330 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 2: and we have and we will. But you know, according 331 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 2: to you and speaking to you, it's like, this is 332 00:17:55,840 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 2: a very immediate threat. This is happening right now, more 333 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 2: than we think it is, more than we realize it is. 334 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think when I say that, I'm talking about 335 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:11,160 Speaker 1: things like using the example the case I've been working on, 336 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: you have an individual and maybe it doesn't fit into 337 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 1: the stereotypical man who is who needs to kill and 338 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,199 Speaker 1: he's targeting women. What actually happens is some of these 339 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 1: people just it's not that they necessarily need to kill, 340 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: but they want what they want and they'll do it, 341 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 1: and they will absolutely kill someone if that person steps 342 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: in the way of what they want. The example I'm 343 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: talking about is a case where a man killed two people, 344 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 1: was charged with murder, but then the police lost the DNA. 345 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: So over a period of time, there was one victim, 346 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 1: there was another victim years later. One was his landlord, 347 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 1: one was someone else who got into an argument with 348 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 1: then he ended up breaking into a woman's apartment and 349 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 1: beating and killing her. Seriously injuring her boyfriend, and we 350 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: think there might be a fourth person who's responsible for 351 00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: So it's not what you'd think of as a traditional 352 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 1: serial killer. Or he wasn't stalking and killing just female victims, 353 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: but he's killed a lot of people, but he's not 354 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: called a serial killer. So I just feel like there's 355 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 1: a lot of people out there who may be technical 356 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 1: serial killers who would not getting counted. 357 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:17,120 Speaker 2: You're almost saying that we need to redefine what makes 358 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 2: a serial killer, right or. 359 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 1: Just think of it. It can still be someone who's 360 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: had three victims with a cooling off period. But I 361 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: definitely think that for example, also a lot of the 362 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: white collar cases I work on that then turns to murder. 363 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 1: I think people kill people for a lot of reasons. 364 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: It's not always the sexual, sadist, rapist, predator. There was 365 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 1: a really good example that I don't know if you 366 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,159 Speaker 1: ever saw the Netflix series The Serpent, but it was 367 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: really good. It was about a serial killer who was 368 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: back in the sixties, seventies, eighties, living in Nepal in 369 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: all these different places, and he very much capitalized on 370 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: the free love vibe that was going on during that time, 371 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 1: and he was able to kind of scam people, but 372 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: then when they would find out out about his scams, 373 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,400 Speaker 1: he really just wanted to steal money, but he killed 374 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: a lot of them. He had a lot of victims, 375 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 1: So I think there are a lot of people like 376 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 1: that floating around out there, sadly. 377 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 2: How many women serial killers have you come across? 378 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: Come across? I mean, I've never really interviewed a female 379 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 1: serial killer. Well maybe one. 380 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 2: Have you interviewed a serial killer? 381 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:24,919 Speaker 1: No? No, I was thinking about someone who's had a 382 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 1: couple victims, but technically she's not a serial killer. I've interviewed. 383 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I've definitely interviewed female killers, and I was 384 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: thinking of one because I believe that she I believe 385 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: she might actually be a serial killer, but I can't 386 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: prove it. I think that women, traditionally, most female serial 387 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 1: killers are not like Aileen Warno's and I think that 388 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: that case has been hugely publicized. She kind of killed, 389 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: she killed her victims and more what you might think 390 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: of as a male fashion. I'm not trying to be sexist, 391 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 1: but just saying, you know, she used a weapon. They 392 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:57,479 Speaker 1: were kind of violent. 393 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 2: Oh I'm sorry, Yeah. 394 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: Just so alien Warnos was a female serial killer. She 395 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: was the one who was portrayed in the movie Monster 396 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:14,880 Speaker 1: by Charlie Saran. She had several victims, and she'd had 397 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: this really tragic life. She had been sexually assaulted and 398 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: raped by men in her own family. She became a 399 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: sex worker, and in a way, a lot of people 400 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: think of her as kind of a sympathetic character because 401 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: she lured some men who were clients of hers into 402 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: the car with her and then she murdered them, and 403 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: it was usually pretty violent. She would shoot them. She 404 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 1: would actually she would kill them in ways that were 405 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 1: thought of as more of a male way of killing, 406 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 1: because typically experts say that men are more violent and 407 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:47,679 Speaker 1: women are more kind of I want to say this 408 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 1: is going to sound wrong, but low key women do 409 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 1: a lot more poisoning because you know, and honestly, I 410 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: think women get away with it more in my personal opinion, 411 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: because they are pretty subtle about it. And We've had 412 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: so many cases of female nurses who've killed multiple patients 413 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 1: and things like that. And I've had several cases that 414 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: I've reported on where a woman will kill several husbands. 415 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: So you have people like bel Guinness who woul lure 416 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 1: her borders in. She had a boarding house and then 417 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 1: she would kill people and bury them in the yard. Again, 418 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: that was more of a fraud case. She just wanted 419 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,239 Speaker 1: the money, but at some point she had to get 420 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: rid of the bodies. 421 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:28,679 Speaker 2: We did a past episode on serial poisoners. Yeah, that's 422 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 2: so before all the age of CSI we live in now, right, 423 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,400 Speaker 2: with all the forensic tools. Before that in the seventies, 424 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 2: how did police track a serial killer? Because you talked 425 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 2: about that critical forty eight hours being impossible. So how 426 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 2: did these detectives and police like eventually find their the killers. 427 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 1: Most of them did a lot of what I do, 428 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: because most of my cases never have very few have 429 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 1: physical evidence we can see or use anyway. They did 430 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 1: old school detective gumshoe pounding, the pavement detective no our 431 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: police work, where they went out, they talked to people 432 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: on the streets, They developed sources, and they just kept 433 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 1: following leads. And for example, I'm thinking of the Hillside 434 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,679 Speaker 1: strangler case, they went and literally talked to all of 435 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:31,199 Speaker 1: these women. You know, they went into the community, they 436 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: knew the community, they got their sources, and then that's 437 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:36,880 Speaker 1: how they got you know, heard about rumors of these 438 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 1: weird guys who were kind of out there, and then 439 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: they just followed those leads. They had much less to 440 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 1: work with. 441 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 2: Let's talk about some of the people who are serial 442 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 2: killers but kind of not serial killers. And you kind 443 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 2: of already allude to this, like Charles Manson, Like, right, 444 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 2: he never actually killed anyone or did any right. 445 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: I think of him more as a cult leader myself, 446 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: think of Charles Manson Moore as a cult leader. He certainly, 447 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 1: I would say, you know it, was responsible for those 448 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 1: deaths and had a part in them. But you're right, 449 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: he never actually did it. But then what do you 450 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: call people who, for example, will hire someone, they'll hire 451 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: a hitman. Well, they didn't actually do it, but they 452 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 1: definitely masterminded it. I feel like he was masterminding it. 453 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 1: So I guess it's the same kind of thing. 454 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 2: When I was in college in the nineties early nineties, 455 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 2: two guys I knew on spring break went to visit 456 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 2: John Wayne Gacy in jail. What is it about the 457 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 2: fascination that we all have for serial killers? The movie? 458 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 2: I mean, because you have two podcasts, there are endless 459 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:49,439 Speaker 2: movies about serial killers, television shows, documentaries, books. True crime 460 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 2: is so popular. What is it about the non killers 461 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 2: curiosity about the serial killer? 462 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: I don't know. Since I was a child, i've read 463 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: I started out reading all the annual true crime books. 464 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: I am fascinated by those things, but I sort of 465 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: turned on its head a little bit. I'm much more 466 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: interested in the victims, how they survived, how they figured 467 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: things out, how to solve the mystery, than I am 468 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,680 Speaker 1: in the killers, because the truth is, they're not very interesting. 469 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 1: They're really not. They're superficially charming maybe at best, but 470 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: like you said, most of the time, they just got 471 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: really lucky. I mean, Jomyan Gacy literally had a graveyard 472 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: underneath his house, and he was actually very sloppy. He 473 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:35,919 Speaker 1: just happened to get lucky and that no one was 474 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:37,920 Speaker 1: maybe looking for those people or thought that he would 475 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: have done it, and he just kind of got lucky. 476 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: I don't know why people were so fascinated with them. 477 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,640 Speaker 1: I don't find them that interesting, to be totally honest. 478 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was crazy that these guys did this, and 479 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 2: I think he gave them some of his paintings. 480 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: He gave them some paintings. 481 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 2: The paintings. Yeah, it's crazy, Well, I. 482 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: Do, but it's the same thing with you know, it's 483 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 1: not exactly the same, but with prison pen pals. I mean, 484 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: I end up in my job writing a lot of 485 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: people in prison because by necessity. But you know, I'm 486 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:07,679 Speaker 1: always amazed at how many women want to be in 487 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 1: relationships with these guys, and that does kind of blow 488 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: me away, I'll be honest, that's what is it about. 489 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 2: Like you've spoken to some of these women, right, I mean, 490 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 2: have you ever. 491 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,119 Speaker 1: Seen the same reason people keep Yeah, we actually have. 492 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: I'm sorry to bring it back to my cases, but 493 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: it is wild. We have one right now where when 494 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: this guy, he's in his forties now, when he was 495 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,719 Speaker 1: seventeen years old, he killed his entire family, all right, 496 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: and there's overwhelming evidence. I've seen the case fall he 497 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: clearly did it. He threw a party, he killed his 498 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,679 Speaker 1: young sister, his stepfather, and his mother covered the bodies 499 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: up three a party like high school, had high school 500 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: people over partying for a week, and I mean it 501 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 1: was pretty horrific. And then he's been in jail for 502 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 1: a long time. But because in Arkansas the law changed 503 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 1: and now he's eligible for release, he's going to get released. 504 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 1: And this woman who keeps calling us is so convinced 505 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: that he didn't do it, And I keep saying, did 506 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 1: you read the case file? At least read the case file. 507 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: You have children, you know, please read the case file. 508 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: And she's just completely believes he's the best thing. Ever. 509 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 1: Maybe it's not to be flippant. Maybe it's the same 510 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: thing when people want to raise wild animals or something. 511 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 1: It's just this weird it's this need to have a 512 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: sort of dark, dramatic thing in your life that's sort 513 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: of caged, safely caged, right, so you kind. 514 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 2: Of get them them them, I can yield it. 515 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: And if not, they're behind bars, so they're telling you 516 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,920 Speaker 1: everything you want to hear. Anyway, maybe it's that I 517 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 1: truly don't understand. I was single for a long time, 518 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: wondering what I was doing wrong, because you know, every 519 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,159 Speaker 1: serial killer in prison I knew how to partner or 520 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: multiple partners. 521 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 2: Even the serial killers are in love, you. 522 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 1: Know, and I'm like, I can't get a date. I mean, 523 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: this is you know, and these guys are literally I 524 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: mean there's they've got ten or fifteen women on the hook. 525 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: What am I doing wrong? 526 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 2: Have you saw? Like you talk about you and you 527 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 2: say we like you have a stash and forget me 528 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,679 Speaker 2: for not knowing all the details. But but have you 529 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 2: solved I mean, have you convinced law enforcement that you 530 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 2: know this person is a serial killer? Have you solved cases? 531 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 1: It wasn't a serial killer, but yeah, we we our 532 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,160 Speaker 1: first season of Hell and Gone involved the murder of 533 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,400 Speaker 1: a twenty two year old girl in the Arkansas Ozarks 534 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: who was a friend of my sisters. Well, story short, 535 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 1: we went in, we had absolutely no access to the 536 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: case file. We went out and did all of our 537 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,199 Speaker 1: own investigating. And when I say we, it was it 538 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: was a small staff. It was me, a couple of producers, 539 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 1: and but I was mainly the one in I was 540 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 1: the one in the field all that, you know, most 541 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 1: of the time, for months at a time. Anyway, we 542 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: ended up the original investigator on the case who told 543 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: me to mind my own business and that investigations were 544 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: grown up stuff. Got was removed from the case somehow, 545 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 1: and after that a new investigator came in and the 546 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: case was solved in nine months. This case was solved 547 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 1: in nine months. And now there's someone in jail convicted 548 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: for that. So uh now, now, well, the Arkansas State 549 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: police ever admit that we helped solve it. No, they'll 550 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: tell you that after sixteen years it was a coincidence. 551 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: I know we did. I know we helped, and that 552 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: makes me very proud. I don't care if we solved 553 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: it or not. I just know that we helped, and 554 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 1: that's all ever wanted to do. 555 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 2: I'm sure it gave you inspiration to keep going. Oh yeah, 556 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 2: keep find it, finding more of these. So we started 557 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 2: out and you've answered this a couple times during our conversation. 558 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 2: But it's like, is our serial killers an American thing? 559 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 2: Is it? Or do we see them all over? Because 560 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 2: you mentioned someone in Nepal. Of course we know Jack 561 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 2: the Ripper. Is it like gun violence? It's there's more 562 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 2: of it in America, but it's not just exclusive to America. 563 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: I think serial killers are worldwide. I've certainly seen examples. 564 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 1: I'm just thinking about even things that I've read in 565 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: the past few years, Russia, Japan, although in Japan it 566 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: is more rare again just because it's so there's cameras everywhere. 567 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 1: The UK certainly to even today they are serial killers. 568 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: I do think that fewer people become serial killers today 569 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 1: because they're caught earlier, and I think the UK is 570 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: a really good example of that, because there have been 571 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: a couple like, for example, there's one called the Camden 572 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: Ripper who was killing and dismembering people, but I don't 573 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: know that he was technically a serial killer because there's 574 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: CCTV everywhere. When you go to the UK, it's wall 575 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: to wall CCTV, so usually they're able to apprehend people 576 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 1: before they actually technically kill that third person. So you 577 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: probably have a lot of people who would have become 578 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: serial killers, but they get caught earlier. 579 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 2: Well. And getting to this, and we've talked about this 580 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 2: throughout our conversation as well, but getting to the second 581 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 2: part of Dave's question, which is are there fewer serial 582 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 2: killers today? 583 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: It's a really hard question to answer. I'm not avoiding it. 584 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think that Okay, research will tell you. 585 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: Studies will tell you that there are. There probably are. 586 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: At the same time, you got to look at where 587 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 1: the homicide clearance rates are going. There are fewer homicides 588 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: being cleared now somewhere. 589 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 2: Around mean by being cleared. 590 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: So that's the thing when when the police give these 591 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: statistics and they say you have a certain percentage of 592 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: homicides that are cleared. It doesn't necessarily mean they're sold 593 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: in the persons behind bars. All that it means is 594 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: I believe that the police have basically gone as far 595 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: as they can and that investigation and either the people 596 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 1: are dead you might be responsible, or they can't find them. 597 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: I mean they literally will market cleared, meaning but it 598 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: might not be solved. So you've got that first of all. 599 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: And then it's only about sixty percent fifty to sixty 600 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: percent are cleared. That doesn't include all the missing people 601 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: out there. So that means you've got about a one 602 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 1: and two chance of getting away with murder. Yeah, you 603 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 1: got a fifty to fifty chance of getting away with 604 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 1: murder in America based on where you are. And that's 605 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: a little scary, to be honest with you. I mean, 606 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 1: when you watch shows like CSI and Law and Order, 607 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: you're not seeing that. So I do think that there 608 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: are potentially more people out there. I think they're you know, 609 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 1: and plus what about all the missing people. A lot 610 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: of them are probably not alive, but they're not officially 611 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 1: getting counted, right, So I do think there are a 612 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 1: fewer serial killers. I do think the technology at catching 613 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: them earlier. Has gotten better, but I don't think that 614 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: we should rest easy. 615 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 2: We certainly won't be resting easy here, but it has 616 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 2: been nice and easy having a conversation with you. I've 617 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 2: been talking to Katherine Townsend. She's host of the podcast 618 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 2: Hell and Gone, Murder Line, and Red Collar. Give her 619 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 2: a call some time. Catherine. Thanks for joining us today 620 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 2: on American History Hotline. 621 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. 622 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 2: You've been listening to American History Hotline, a production of 623 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 2: iHeart Podcasts and Scratch Track Productions. The show is executive 624 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 2: producer is James Morrison. Our executive producers from iHeart are 625 00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 2: Jordan Runtall and Jason English. Original music composed by me 626 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 2: Bob Crawford. Please keep in touch. Our email is Americanhistory 627 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 2: Hotline at gmail dot com. If you like the show, 628 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 2: please tell your friends and leave us a review in 629 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts. I'm your host, Bob Crawford. Feel free to 630 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 2: hit me up on social media to ask a history 631 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 2: question or to let me know what you think of 632 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 2: the show. You can find me at Bob Crawford Base. 633 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:33,200 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening. See you next week.